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Welcome to botches off-road join us as we talk about everything from gear reviews to trail stories

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tank camping to rock landing and all things to do with the outdoors today's just kind of a quick

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and dirty another recap if you will about the meeting for marble head up in Drummond Island

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we've got Derek vs Pro from mitten state tours and Joe Yamber do you want to be from mitten state

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tours are you from something else okay Joe Yamber from mitten state tours they've got a lot of

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background about the whole marble head situation and they've got some pretty interesting takes

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that will really add to your knowledge on it so how you guys doing good how are you yeah Alex

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thanks for having us yeah thanks it's always a pleasure always a pleasure so she probably

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should have brushed up on what we talked about when I was on with Duncan but what was your take

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on the meeting do you feel like things will change or do you think it's just gonna be more

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of the same Derek do you want to go first yeah I was on the whole time until like the very end

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where I had to get going for work but I think I barely missed any of it seemed like they were

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wrapping up but so at first they were trying to like not even talk about it and then they were

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talking about their plans and enhance they said enhancements and then I chimed in also that's

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what you call it and then that kind of spiraled into the marble head discussion now there were

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two ladies I think one of them was Christie and I can't remember the other one's name but Christy

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seemed to be the one who was the most knowledgeable on the events that actually took place and

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she had mentioned that they knew that they were going back there with heavy equipment huh

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Christie and Amy Amy okay so Christie had mentioned that she knew they were going back

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with heavy equipment to move boulders in front of the steps now she had mentioned that they knew

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that the mini steps were going to be demolished to get the equipment up there and I had brought up

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well if you look at the path that they cleared in order to get the equipment down on the actual

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steps of marble head the entirety of the mini steps didn't need to be demolished it was unnecessary

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so then they claimed they had no knowledge of the steps being taken taken away but here's where and

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and I didn't think of it at the time you know the hindsight's 2020 but how did they know like they

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knew the many steps right had to be demolished to get equipment how did they not know that the

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actual steps were gonna have to be addressed as well if the mini steps had to be done right like

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how the steps are way bigger than the how did they plan on getting the equipment down if they knew

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the mini steps are a problem how were the big steps not gonna be a problem so they're claiming

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that they've been blindsided and all this stuff and screwed over by the DNR but when you think

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about it they signed off on the mini steps being taken away how did they not know that the big steps

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were gonna be a problem too and then and the former there was another guy in there I can't

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remember his name I can't remember any of their names but he kind of was in charge of it for a

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while and then it seemed like he retired and kind of handed it off but he's still active enough and

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he claimed he had no knowledge of the mini steps either he said they weren't supposed to be touched

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and then that's when I pointed out well wait a minute Christie said ten minutes ago that they

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were so to me it seems like there was a lot of there they know they they know more than they're

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saying yeah and I and I don't see how you could have possibly known about the mini steps and not

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the big steps at the same time it's it's it makes no sense so going forward if you can't get up the

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mini if you can't get up the mini steps you're not getting down the big steps yeah so going

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forward it sounds like they want to have a more open discussion about these types of things and

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because they they opened they opened themselves into a huge can of worms and the the backlash

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and everything that they've received from the off-road community is is is well deserved in

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my opinion yeah sure the DNR is the one that actually went back there with the equipment and

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said hey dude X Y & Z but I don't know they were the ones that requested the boulders get placed

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in front of the cliff so people can't drive down there and I mean I mean maybe they didn't know

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like what that actually entailed but it I mean if you're if you're the president of the Drummond

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Island off-road club and you know that they're going back there with heavy equipment and they

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have to deal with obstacles wouldn't you be back there to watch and have a say in what they do

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you're supposed to be back there yeah supposed to be back to to protect these trails and manage them

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yet you just just don't have you have zero cares about them going back there unsupervised but with

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the bulldozer is just insane to me anyway that that's what they're I'll let Derek go on from

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I'd add some background on that actually when we talk about the Drummond Island off-road club

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there is no such thing currently as the Drummond Island off-road club the Drummond Island off-road

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club is a shell of a club it's operated by the Drummond Island Tourism Association it's

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completely and wholly controlled by Drummond Island Tourism Association or DITA now DITA is

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not made up of off-road enthusiasts and that was pretty obvious during the meeting so we had

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conversations with with them during the meeting where it became very apparent they're well out

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of their depth they do not understand the off-road community and essentially they're going off of

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their their trail master whoever's helping with these grants is a snowmobile groomer who operates

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the groomer up there yes he drives on the trails but it doesn't seem like he's an actual enthusiast

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it just seems like he's an island enthusiast and there just happens to be trails and snowmobile

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trails there um so my my opinion of the group right now is they're hopelessly um they're they're

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hopelessly kind of outmatched by what they you know what their mission should be they're not

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off-road enthusiasts they don't understand the community they don't know who the community is

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right and they they don't have the first idea of who to reach out to or how to respond to you know

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these specific issues that the off-road community has brought up because to them they don't conceive

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of this as being an issue right they hear hey we can get a grant from the DNR to smooth out these

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trails oh that's good because people will be able to drive on them it's off-road they view that as

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being acceptable to the off-road community well the reason they view it that way is because they're

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not they're not off-roaders they don't overland they're not anything besides people who live on

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the island who occasionally use the trails to get out some place for photography or a picnic or

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something like that they're not out there because they enjoy the difficulty of the challenge um so

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that's that's background on the German Island Off-Road Club and they have someone who works

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with the DNR writing grants right so what that is is the DNR has got a certain amount of money

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and you can apply for it if you've got a club or something like that with some sort of authority

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over the area such as German Island Tourism Association so yes I fully expect that at some

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point when all the FOIA requests go through and get returned that yes German Island Off-Road Club

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as a part of German Island Tourism Association um absolutely signed off on this they assumed that

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the the operators both knew what they were doing and also that it was something that the community

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would appreciate which is why they you know initially had you know no response for why people

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were upset so I think you know that's the important background on German Island Tourism

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Association and German Island Off-Road Club. Looking into the future they're supposed to

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hold board elections this year so German Island Tourism Association is is in the charter for

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German Island Off-Road Club is to operate it for one year and at the end of that time period

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they're supposed to hold elections for the board well what we don't have is a clear path to membership

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for the German Island Off-Road Club so we don't know how do we join the German Island Off-Road

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Club so that we can have voting rights to vote in people we want for the board that's not clear

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and when I asked for clarity on that I got a promise to uh get back to you um they haven't

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gotten back to me yet. You it'd be nice if they could model it kind of off uh the same path as

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like Friends of the Rubicon or uh the Rubicon Trail Foundation where you don't you know there's

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a whole group of people around protecting the trails on the island and they can be from anywhere

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in the state and be part of the the whole program but I just I think that the German Island Tourist

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uh what do they call themselves Dita or whatever I think they're gonna have a hard time handing

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over the reins like that. My prediction is that as well I and this is this is purely off of of

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feelings and vibes okay this isn't based off of anything that I have information on or even

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conversations with people who know my my feelings and vibes is that the locals do not like the side

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by side community they confuse it with the broader off-road community lump us in together we're the

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side by sides side by sides are drunks they're loud and annoying and they're driving way too fast

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so the locals are fed up with it they don't care right they're they're over it they went they moved

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to German because it's their little quiet place in the up which is fine but that's

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you can have your quiet place in the up on your own private property

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German is something special for all Michiganers and the broader off-road community

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so I think what's happening is is because the board is comprised compute purely of the German

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Island Tourism Association members who live on the island are friends with other islanders

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and are influenced by those people I think their decisions are going to continue to be anti-off-road

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community um until we start to both a hold them accountable and then b get elected to that board

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so that we can start making sure that these kind of dog shit decisions aren't made anymore

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right yeah I I mean those are all valid points um

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yeah I I just can't I can't imagine a world where anyone on the island would think it's a good idea

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to destroy the steps like the steps themselves even if they weren't a off-road destination

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they were beautiful on their own yeah so I mean I feel like yeah and then Joe you can

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you can probably talk more about this but I don't think they care that much

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care that much no so the the older gentleman who had uh ran or supervised the club or whatever

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and then retired he he was saying that you know he was a jeeper his grandfather started jeeping

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on Drummond Island I mean he's he's he's been doing it his whole life is and he's passed it

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down to his his generations after him and uh he was really upset like you could tell how upset he

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was uh given the the circumstances of everything that happened and it's too bad that there aren't

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more of him around to uh kind of hold the key and and keep an eye on things so if they are going to

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keep their current uh management structure I don't see things working out very well and they they

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need to keep in mind that that's not their land it's just as much as the downstate people's land

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is theirs it's state land and you know I think uh I think getting some of uh some of us on the board

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would be a great thing and I mean you know if if we have to I'll drive four and a half hours up there

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to to to just help preserve it for future people to come I mean it's I went there I think four or

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five times last year and I went with my family in August I had a great time just us and the very

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last day my wife was kind of over it blah blah blah like oh let's take one more ride we'll go it's

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it's raining we don't want to pack up in the rain anyway so let's just go for a little

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cruise and we ended up at marble head played around for a little bit took a nice family photo

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on the steps and that following week is when we had the news of what happened and you know it's

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it's such a it was such for for me it was just such a a big blow to my heart you know it it

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Drummond Island was a very special place and then there's a lot of people now

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who never want to go back and I mean I could see it I I feel for them and they you know I

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I personally plan on going back I I still think that it's beautiful there the trails are great

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I mean for now and I think the people up there the majority of them had nothing to do with it so

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people are going you know well let's not give them our money let's not give them our business well

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the sweet lady at the gift shop didn't come out there with an excavator she didn't bolt out those

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those steps you know what I mean the people who run the northwood or or pins you know they're

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they're they're not the ones behind us and it's in it you know part of it too is like what what

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else in driving distance is is close enough to be worth it you know we don't have we have we can go

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to Kentucky we could go to the keven off which is double double or triple the distance and the

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wheeling is not even as good we got bad lines yeah I mean that's what I'm saying but like natural

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occurring features you know like there's not a whole lot here and Drummond Island was really

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special in that regard like there wasn't anything else nearby that's even close so I'm not sure

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that they they realized at the time what they were actually doing you know they they saw it as an

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end to you know a means to an end as far as getting that equipment down there and in the boulders

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that they place nobody else talks about this like my xj on 33s could crawl over them no problem

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you know it's not like they they did they did anything that permanent like anybody

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anybody four beers deep and and a and a shitty build can get over them you know what I mean

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you know what I mean and I'm not saying they should but it's you know it's just they they could have

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I don't want to really get into like what they could have done or should have done but

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they could have taken some that turn into well they could have taken some trees and and stacked

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up a bunch of logs over in front of it and kind of made a little fence and that would have probably

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been more successful I don't know I mean they did that um our local area we used to play and called

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the prairie they did that around the entire racetrack blocked it all off and no one can get

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back there in anything now I mean it's a 10 foot high fence of trees and sticks you can't get

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through it and yeah I don't know it's just to me their whole uh destruction in the name of

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preservation thing is just so hypocritical I even I even brought that up in the meeting I said you

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know it's hard for people to come to your island and take the the principle of tread lightly

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seriously when you guys are going out there with heavy equipment bulldozing you know natural rock

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features and then just tossing the remnants over in the tree line and uh just saying fuck it let's

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go get a beer you know at that point like it's it's it's just yeah not testing that one they

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especially seem to have a problem it was done they didn't seem to understand why that was so bad

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you've got a pile of rock that's what 15 20 tons of rock that they didn't leave on the trail or

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off the side of it they pushed it straight into the woods that supposedly like hey you guys can't

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go off trail but we can put push right 15 tons of rock into the woods that you're never going to

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get trees growing up for that in the next you know 15 years 20 years so it's really annoying to hear

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them say oh we can't do a bypass and then yeah the same destructive effect of making a bypass like

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so that that's the really frustrating part and you know some of the concerns looking forward um I

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highly encourage and I'll post it on MST again they uh German Island Off-Road Club posted a map of

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future projects right and a lot of the future projects they look pretty good I think they're

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the yellow pens are what they're working on um a lot of them is on the atv trails and it looks like

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stuff that needs to be done right like a uh the grading on a bridge needs to be redone because

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the the bridge is either sunken or or uh you know the ground is sunk around the bridge with

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you know there's a foot gap to get on the bridge that's good work right but then they start talking

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about tank traps and um the walker trail the walker trail and the walker trail you don't

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need to go down that like there's no reason to go down unless you want to go down the walker trail

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it runs parallel it runs parallel with the road that kind of just is on the there's like the main

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road and then there's like trails that kind of right yeah looping out of it and there's there's

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no there's no access accessibility issues with with the walker trail it's it's stupid yeah so the

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the frustrating thing with this is because they're not off-roaders they believe that hey there's water

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on the trail that could be dangerous we need to we need to fix that well no signage can solve this

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problem right people can take personal accountability right the sign says hey water can be three or four

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foot deep right do not continue unless you're able to handle that that that solves the issue

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right then and there so you don't have people surprised by that um they could just post the

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picture of my forerunner nose deep uh and just say hey here's a warning well they i mean i know

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that was south south actually was uh addressed too um that used to be pretty much like you know how

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like when you go back obviously we didn't see this in april because it was completely underwater but

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if you go in june right there's that middle section that you can kind of snake your way

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through all the really sketchy stuff back there and uh that used to not be there that that was all

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sketchy territory until they went back there and enhanced it so

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yeah there's a lot there's a lot of other things too like you remember um that section that goes

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around connor's hole uh that was all yeah they they blasted that they used to have like yeah i

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yeah i know what that looked like beforehand and that i was really excited to play in that section

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and then it was just gone yeah got up there so i i think going forward guys what can you do if

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you listen to this and you're still upset about it what can you do um apparently the second tuesday

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of every month they are meeting i am now on the email chain for the german island off-road club

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community or whatever so i'll be posting that on menton state tours michigan overlands whatever

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that meeting happens i'll be posting that along with the map that they are the projects their

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discussion discussing um so that you guys can tune in i will say i am encouraged by a couple things

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right they seem easily influenced initially i don't know if they're going to listen but they

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did seem i said hey as a as a makeup to the off-road community would you consider talking

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to pj castor who's the dnr trails expert for the eastern

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um who's who's not our favorite person because he's ultimately the one responsible for marble head

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but i said yeah pj sucks sitar yeah i'm not going to say anything personal about

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um but i said please consider talking to the dnr and opening up some of these atv trails that are

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really wide enough to drive a vehicle on like you go down there and when you look and oh that's the

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atv trail and it's like is it though like so i so i asked him i said go back to your dnr buddy

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and say these trails are already wide enough like open them up to vehicle usage so that more people

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can enjoy the rugged parts of the island right if we're talking about accessibility

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right right i mean there's got to be accessible what if i don't own a four-wheeler what if i only

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own a truck so they were actually pretty pretty open to that idea and they the impression i got

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is they thought that was a good idea so they they took that back and they included that they will

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go ahead joe they wouldn't even have to they wouldn't even have to do any work if they did it

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if they just opened it up and you know said you can drive on this now smaller trucks are naturally

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going to go through it and it will just slowly open up and then you know they're going to be able to

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go through it and it will just slowly widen for wider trucks yeah and i mean there's a couple

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spots where there's bridges or swaps that would have to be addressed right you'd have to get a

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grant to throw down uh you know whatever the you know an i-beam bridge that can handle a full-size

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truck weight because there's i think there's two or three bridges that are right but those bridges

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aren't just repair already you need to be replaced so why not why not prep that and have that ready

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for full-size vehicles um they are working on so at the beginning of the year i believe i shared

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of 2024 i shared the um a long poll or survey done by german island tourism association basically

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saying hey here's what we want to see um everyone got a chance to do it from off-roaders to locals

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to whatever um so they've been going through that list of ideas and remember some of them are angry

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locals who basically say no off-roaders a lot of them were um responses from the off-road community

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um they're going to start working on a few different things so better campsites for

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dispersed camping so whether that means you know maybe leveling out like the spots that we stayed

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or adding fire rings or going back there with a brush hog twice a year and brush hogging them

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um they don't really have what that's defined as so we have an opportunity to go to these meetings

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and define hey what does a better dispersed campsite look like um you know the suggestion

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for trash cans at the trailheads that was one that i asked a lot of people to put in there a lot of

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people did um and that's high on their list right is to get a dumpster or larger trash cans at trailheads

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because we all know if you're picking up cans your trash bin is packed full by the end of a long day

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right um and i don't i don't really want to carry somebody else's nasty beer cans around i'd like to

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i'd like to pick them up but i don't want to carry them with me the whole trip so i did ask for that

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and it does look like they're pretty enthusiastic about that idea um the last thing the go ahead

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it'd be not it'd be nice it'd be nice if they they'd add either more bathrooms or wag bags they they

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had because even if they had proposed adding uh adding us another one too i can't remember the

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location because even if they just did you know maybe next every trash can they did a box of

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wag bags or something just some way for people to be able to take care of it without all the

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freaking white flowers everywhere yeah so they did talk about the uh outhouse situation um

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this year i think they're trying to get a double outhouse at glen cove instead of the single um and

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they're going to double the frequency of pumping on that so last year i think they pumped once a

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month this year they're going to do it twice a month um so they got grants for that um then

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they're also working on getting outhouses at the rest of the trailheads because i don't think all

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of the trailheads have outhouses like pens i don't think has an outhouse is that correct

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no it doesn't yeah you'd have to go into pens which isn't the end of the world because like

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you stop in pens you grab a coke or a pepsi or whatever they have and some little swags it's

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actually kind of a nice thing for pens because you get people stopping in and buying some stuff so

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but they're they're working on outhouses there um and then also getting a outhouse out to um

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fossil ledges that was on the list um that's a good spot yeah i need it there was uh there was

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there was some waste i've seen there before and it's just i don't know i don't know why people can't

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take care of their take care of their own crap man they just just leave it there and everybody

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else is to look at it yeah i went crap there once but i at least buried mine i'm proud of you

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so i guess going forward here's what i would say if this is a subject that interests you um you know

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make time to attend the meetings read through the pre-brief which is the map that they post

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and understand what they're talking about and then use this opportunity to influence them because

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they it seems like they're looking for leadership or someone to tell them what to do because right

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now they they don't know what they're doing and i think they understand they don't know what they're

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doing i think they want to do what's right but they don't know what's right so get in there and

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make your voice heard right yeah i i had mentioned um that if they're just pointing the finger at pj

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costa and they had nothing to do with it that they need to have pj uh a part of one of their

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meetings so we can direct our questions toward him and uh they they were open to trying to get

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him to do that i mean whether he does or not i don't know but i think they're not going to hear

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the end of the marblehead fiasco for quite some time uh especially looking back on everything

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after the meeting and like like going over it in my head there's there's there's so many

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indiscrepancies with their story and uh there are a lot of back and forth well you know well we didn't

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know about this well actually yeah we did okay you know what i mean like it's only a matter of time

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before they're just they're like yeah okay we knew about it like we had to get the equipment down

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there somehow this was the only way we could think of how to do it and i i honestly i want to let them

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up for it because there that wasn't the only way but you know whatever i'm gonna try and get in the

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meeting this next coming month and one of the things i want to propose to them is i'd like these

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meetings to be recorded and put on youtube or somewhere so that other people have a chance to

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look back i mean i i recorded a portion of it and most of it was on the topic of marblehead and i

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whether or not that was authorized i don't care but uh yeah i i post i just i'd like to see

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for for ease of access or uh what's the word uh transparency i'd like to see the drummond

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island off-road club do it on their own i don't want us to have to yes you know babysit them to

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keep track of this bootleg copy of the drummond island off-road club meeting but i mean that's

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what it was and i mean i'd even go as far as offering up a way to do it um you know helping

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them get stuff set up because that's just to me that's such an important piece of this is that

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everyone can see what's going on yeah yeah i think they're not i sorry go ahead oh i was gonna say

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so i'm looking through my so i got the meeting minutes from amy um

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so i'm just kind of looking through them and like everything that we talked about like they've got

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in their minutes that they're going to kind of work on it they obviously don't have how um

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you know the discussion around hey this is you know our anger i guess um but yeah so the meetings

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will be held on the second monday of each month at 7 pm that's correct are you sure you're sure

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it's monday second monday of each month at 7 pm all right because he said tuesday a little bit ago

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so just trying to clear yeah i pulled up the email and checked gotcha so the next one would be march

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11th yeah i think that sounds like i think going forward i mean just the way this was all handled

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and how much hot water they got themselves into i think they're going to be very apprehensive about

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doing i mean but the problem is the damage has already been done but i think they're going to be

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very apprehensive about doing anything else especially on that that large of scale now

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i would like to address with them what about the rest of the trail system that's become just a

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seasonal dirt road now at this point then it wasn't two years ago like we didn't even we were so focused

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on marble head that we didn't even bring that stuff up yeah like everybody was so hyper focused

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on the marble head fiasco that we just kind of forgot about like the the section that goes around

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connor's hole or just pretty much all the trails in general dude like in 2023 they it was littered

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with basketball-sized boulders everywhere like slow crawling and you know nice and easy trail

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you know you you weren't gonna fly you weren't gonna do derrick derrick stuff going through them

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at 40 miles an hour because you would have blown your front at you know your front suspension out

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real quick you know and now it's the side by side they that what's that saying well i was saying

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they've opened it up for the side by side 60 miles an hour right you boil a pot with a frog in it and

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he doesn't feel it till he dies or something like that but i'm not sure what they're slowly boil the

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pot yeah i'm not sure where you're well they they slowly they slowly they slowly started taking

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trails away until suddenly they destroyed marble head so before they started taking the trails

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away so before no one really said anything they were just kind of like that sucks that sucks that

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sucks well now i think they've hit that tipping point where people actually care now and they're

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gonna pay attention yeah i mean derrick you remember in in 23 like it was just drastically

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different than when we went back in 24 it's just insane how how much enhancing they did and the

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is is that all they did was open it up for high speed side by sides to run through their 60 70

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miles an hour and and and just the the booze buggies just let them they just let them fly

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you know before they couldn't they weren't able to do that yeah so

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on that note two things i noticed during the meeting so i did say why are we not requesting

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more dnr supervision the response to that was there's two i guess there's only two fishing

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game or wildlife officers in the eastern up so they're stretched thin which for me personally

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i'm i don't feel too bad about that um you know i i prefer not to have them in my hair

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but the uh you know i said hey you guys have a serious problem with reckless driving and with

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drunk driving and uh they they they agreed with that but also i noticed a couple of the older guys

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i don't think they want to stop the drunk driving on the island and right i i understand like hey

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some of the guys like to crack a Coors light and have a course while they're on the have a

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trail latte right i get that and it's like that's not what i'm talking about i'm talking about the

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guys who've got six empties rolling around in their back seat and are obviously blindingly drunk

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right like that's an issue um but it doesn't you know i think they paid lip service to that but i

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don't think they're serious about actually stopping that and something bad is going to happen a side

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by side is going to come flying in and meet you know six tons of american steel um or japanese

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and or japanese yeah japanese well japanese would be like three tons right but um yeah there there's

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going to be an accident and someone's going to die and it's a lot more is going to get shut down

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so it's like they they need to start policing now before that happens so like that's something like

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hey when you go to the meeting like talk about that talk about hey how do we control the side

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by side speeds like should we put in some boulder-sized racks to keep them moving slower

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like that we're already there right but i i think that at the end of the day right it comes down to

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go to the meeting make sure you're heard be loud about hey we want a formal process for joining

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the off-road club right because i don't want to get shut out in some sham election because nobody

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was allowed to join the club um they didn't have formal membership roles right so i think those are

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the things we need to be loud about is is one we want to get people friendly to us on the board

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which means that they have to really define that membership process and who gets voting rights

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and then two is is going in there and making sure that hey other people outside of the the data group

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are looking at the projects and have are ready with not only criticism but solutions too so if

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you don't like the way that they're doing something come to them with a solution because just telling

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them this is a dogshit idea well guess what that's going to end up with they're going to do the dog

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shit idea because you didn't have a better idea so come to them with come to them with a hey here's

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how to do this better hey instead of dragging racks down to marble head why don't we just drill some

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holes and put a fence post you could do that with a small piece of equipment or even by hand

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right drill drill fence posts into the ground and then you don't have to worry about it for the next

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15 years um so that's just put down some spikes right so so but the point is is is look at the

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proposals and then come ready with with alternatives that that aren't you know stupid yeah right yeah

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and that's that's that's the problem is that there was no transparency before any of this happened

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it just happened and you know i i don't think that they they kind of were thinking about like hey this

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is everybody's land not just ours this isn't just our island's land this is the whole state owns this

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we pay tax we pay more taxes to own it than they do if you look at the grand scheme of the population

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i mean you know and it i don't know the whole and then so this is something we could talk about the

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whole pitman robinson uh act provisions tom craig the president of great lake four-wheel drive

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association said that there's zero pitman robinson act land on drummond island so they

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that was cited i believe in pj costa's response email so i'm not sure and then

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said he's he he dug a lot into it and uh he's he's more knowledgeable than anybody honestly

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um he probably would be somebody that could who could shed some more light on this than any derrick

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or myself but um i'm sure he's a busy guy but anyway i had not even thought about reaching out

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to tom but that's a really good idea tom craig yeah i can do that for i can do that for next

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month yeah i can i can i've got some communications with him we talked after that meeting for a while

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tom and i did um you know i'm generally sympathetic to what tom's trying to do i don't buy

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that you know he pretty explicitly said that you know detail drummond island off-road club didn't

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have anything to do with that that i don't buy but the rest of his um you know kind of the rest of

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the stuff that you talked about i'm pretty on board with and i'll share some of that with you

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alex so you can pop it up on your podcast page or i don't even know how to listen to a podcast what

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do i do google podcast i'll help you on friday i'll help you on friday google podcast should work if

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it's still around i think all right well i'll just i'll just google the word podcast and figure it

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out from there yeah there's i mean the fountain app works spotify works i just always click the

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links that you share and just listen to it that way let me that works too as long as gavin remembers

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to make the links because he seems to be forgetting that lately where is gavin where are the other

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botches bros uh gavin when we started gavin was still at work and mark is probably also still at

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work um but yeah so i guess in summation uh they point the finger at the dnr they claimed to have

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no knowledge of what was going on but they had knowledge of the equipment going back there and

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the equipment needing to to to destroy the many steps to get back there but they claimed they had

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no idea about the actual steps and get involved figure out how we can prevent these things from

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happening in the future i'm not even going to name the features but there's still other things there

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that are subject to enhancing and we don't want that to happen so we need to put the i saw some

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of them and yeah well we need to put the pressure on like derek said clear path to membership

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yep fair honest election for the board and solutions they have these projects in mind

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if you don't agree with the way that they need that that they're going to approach it

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think about a way to approach it better you know is yeah is the drummond island off-road club part

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of the michigan uh the off-road association or whatever because isn't that made up by a bunch

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of clubs no they're not part of great lakes four-wheel drive um they're they're literally

383
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:10,760
dude they are just a shell they are a website with no members behind it yeah there's no club events

384
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:19,080
it's all through dita the the people who run dita run german island it's uh it's just a mask worn

385
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:26,360
by german island tourism association that's literally all it is so they they want to change

386
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:33,160
that they want to change that supposedly but again let's see how these elections go

387
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:42,120
well and when you brought up the whole um the whole booze buggy problem they were they're like

388
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,760
well you know we want people to still have fun out there and and and not have to worry about

389
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:52,920
getting tickets but we want people to be safe and now when you think about that the people like you

390
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:59,880
said drummond island off-road club is dita these guys are the people that own the resorts they want

391
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:04,280
these because the side-by-side guys that go down there they don't camp they go stay at these resorts

392
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,960
you know what i mean they they want them to keep coming and i think maybe that's kind of part of

393
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,120
the whole angle that they're playing is that they're trying to make things more fun for the

394
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:21,720
side-by-side community because they're the ones that go down there and rent their their lodging

395
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:27,560
and everything like that and and eat all their meals at the bar like pins that whole resort and

396
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,440
stuff you know it's you'll see nothing but side by sides parked in the parking lot in the big

397
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:39,400
trailers and stuff across the street so it's kind of interesting now you think about it like that

398
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,880
uh i don't know maybe maybe there's more to it

399
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:54,440
yeah well on that note uh this was good there's a lot of information i didn't know there that we

400
00:43:54,440 --> 00:44:01,320
could it's good for listeners to get to hear that um but definitely i think we need to find out what

401
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,600
the uh the route to access for drummond island off-road club is going to be because until we can

402
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:13,320
get people in there that actually care i don't see anything um do you want to talk about some

403
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,160
mitten state tours events coming up while we're while we're here for the listeners

404
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:26,920
you know what let's do so sunday this actually sorry this saturday mst range day we've got

405
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:37,160
uh the dog party that's uh march 15th joe and dirks uh birthday bash in valleys that's going

406
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:43,320
to be that's going to be lit 10 a.m yeah come on we rented the whole park out yep we're working

407
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:51,640
with west michigan off-road and the michigan bronco club yep um rigs and coffee kicks off sunday march

408
00:44:51,640 --> 00:45:01,160
march 23rd the april 27th jesus it's already almost rigs and coffee time yep april 27th is rigs

409
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:08,600
um may 25th is rigs all right then we got an mst event may 31st through june 1st spring

410
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:23,320
shakedown come shake down your springs uh fox lake fuchs vex foch s licks i'm just trying to

411
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:33,400
mispronounce that i know you um how do you say it fox lakes fox lakes um yeah i didn't want to like

412
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:39,240
i didn't want to say it like that you know well i guess i already dropped a bomb on here um oh dude

413
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:44,440
we swear all the time on here you're good thursday june 5th through june 8th this is a big one mst

414
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:50,920
invades leatherwood leatherwood is kentucky's newest premier off-roading destination it should

415
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:57,640
be a blast make sure your rigs are ready though don't come down there with don't pull an alex

416
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,200
and come down there and have to put two quarts of gear oil in your in your rear diff and no spare

417
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:10,440
tire that was hey hey i didn't pop a tire i still your frame is held together by bailing wire and

418
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,400
uh at a stake you found on the side of the road no i was a rat he ratchet strapped the body to the

419
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:22,760
okay when he was there to be fair when we when we left for drummond island i knew that there was a

420
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:29,240
small hole in the back of my frame it was like penny sized by the like third day it was just the

421
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:35,720
whole frame was gone in the back yeah well so for leatherwood yeah we're gonna be eight nine hours

422
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:43,400
away have some spare parts you know have have a spare tires from spare parts and then i'll have

423
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:49,400
a trailer uh if worst case scenario i need a trailer you do a shop or something but i mean

424
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,080
you know these things can be prevented have some have some cheap rock auto ball joints

425
00:46:55,080 --> 00:47:01,560
have some tie rods have some cv axles if you have solid axle have some you know spare axle shafts

426
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:08,440
oh you know on that note i'll drop it in the leatherwood chat we do have a spreadsheet

427
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:15,320
about spare parts to google doc um so people are contributing what spares they're bringing

428
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:21,880
with the hopes that you know if they break something you at least know who to go to

429
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,600
yeah you know who to go to and also that you can kind of plan better hey maybe i have six people

430
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:33,000
are bringing cvs maybe don't buy a cv maybe get a ball joint or something like that that and

431
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:38,600
tools there might be a good thing to add to the to the spreadsheet is what tools are the batches

432
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:45,000
are kind of tool trailer well you know like we're building a tool trailer like it just

433
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:50,200
when i went down to drummond for mst i brought the freaking kitchen sink with me man i had ball

434
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:57,000
joint presses front end dude suspension kits i had everything with me we're gonna we're gonna have

435
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:03,800
ball joint presses we're gonna have a shop press for changing uh wheel bearings everything um i mean

436
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:10,440
it's we're building a mobile shop i'm just saying you know it might be uh the batches are like i know

437
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:16,600
how to get invited to every exclusive event well you know what i mean though like it might be now

438
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:21,880
it might be good just to like know other people not everybody knows the botches bros you know

439
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,640
what i mean so like if you've got some new guy this is his first mst trip and he's wondering

440
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:32,840
what tools to bring he could have that even alex lists everything he's gonna bring that way they

441
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:39,880
know so anyway um after leatherwood we have spring kids camping that's uh june 20th of the 22nd up in

442
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:46,680
grayling friday july 18th western up exploration trip now these trips are always a lot of fun

443
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:53,480
um the wheeling isn't necessarily really technical but you get to you get really cool campsites and

444
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:59,720
uh it's a good it's always a good crew of people yeah a note on that one that one is going to fill

445
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:07,000
up really fast because like i'm not trying to drag 20 trucks behind me we've i've done that and uh

446
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:15,240
yeah it's it's just a challenge right so if i get once i get to 12 or 14 trucks i'm gonna ask for

447
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:21,960
volunteers and i'll drop you the south shore route that we did last year if you want to be a leader

448
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:29,400
you'll get the really cool campsites directions to the largest cave in michigan um that's pretty

449
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:37,320
well hidden um all the ruins that we explored um all that fun stuff you'll get basically a pre-made

450
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:44,200
awesome trip um that you can enjoy and i i think the route was pretty cool i mean a little more

451
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:52,280
pain yeah the thunderbolt the thunderbolt sweet thunderbolt was sick um but yeah so once that

452
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,320
fills up if somebody wants to lead another group i will drop you just a pre-made job

453
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:07,400
where basically you just have to download the gpx and uh herd some cats so then um yeah and if you

454
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:12,920
need i i obviously want to do the western uh up exploration with you but if you need another

455
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:23,160
group for that i'll be willing to lead that um i've already got you i also say i also should be able

456
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:29,080
to lead that if you need someone so we got uh august 9th through august 11th i'm gonna be

457
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:37,400
running a crew up to drummond uh we'll be doing the big uh the big campsite that we usually use

458
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,160
in august it probably will be pretty brushy but you know you just you get what you get

459
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:50,520
i think the first day that i is usually i go up thursday night um

460
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:56,200
i don't expect everyone to be able to pull that off but i friday is when we do our first smaller

461
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:03,400
trail ride when not everybody is showing up yet and we usually go back pick people up for marble

462
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:10,200
head at night the sunset marble head jamboree um but anyway i plan on doing the more technical

463
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,440
trails that are more time consuming friday as opposed to trying to run them with everybody

464
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:20,200
saturday uh last time we did that on saturday we did that on friday and then we did that again

465
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:25,960
saturday there were some people who weren't really ready for um that so they had to kind of wait for

466
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:33,560
us at the end of the trail and we had some vehicles that needed a lot of a lot of recovery in the

467
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,640
titan twisties and i kind of felt bad for the guys that were just waiting for us so we're going to do

468
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:44,200
more technical stuff friday uh saturday we'll do the marble head loop and then make our way

469
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:51,160
um through connor's hole and take the easy way i think to uh fossil then anyway after that we got

470
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:56,520
craig is leading a convoy up to the seven hour plane crash to core

471
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:05,240
friday september 12th through the 14th is the fall kids camping in grayling and that's all i have

472
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:14,520
that's all i have available on mst's uh um site i mean obviously there's rick's coffee sprinkled in

473
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:22,280
i just got a note um it's not live quite yet but menton state tours.com hopefully by this weekend

474
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:27,480
will be live for those who don't have facebook you'll be able to hell yeah you'll be able to see all

475
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:36,520
of our events um it'll be a space for um not only events but for all of our discount codes in one

476
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:45,160
place for um friends of mst so batches off-road it'll have links in there to uh you know our

477
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:52,280
friends podcasts our friends shops that we that we frequent products that we use so on and so forth

478
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:58,680
um so that that that is coming hopefully this weekend if corey's not too sick and can get that done

479
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:07,160
that is going to be sick i won't have to get on facebook all the time the website is also going to

480
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:18,040
trans uh is going to transition straight into the merch seamless yep like steve like steve jobs

481
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:22,440
would have done i kept saying yes all the time

482
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:30,360
anyway um yeah and then we've got some new hats that we're going to put out for mst pretty soon

483
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:37,400
uh the hats are sick like this hat's pretty cool but the ones that yammer's got are dope

484
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:45,720
yeah they're pretty cool i want to do um like a like a older retro style like trucker hat with

485
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:52,040
like a real thick rope with the mst hell yeah i think that would be sweet too i have to get my

486
00:53:52,040 --> 00:54:01,240
mom working on that and my wife but um that's all i have for events uh if you're list if you're

487
00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:06,840
listening i want to see a coon hat yeah the i don't know how we would press onto a coon hat but

488
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:15,240
plus like well yeah you'd have to do embroidery i mean obviously everybody's free to are to to buy

489
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:21,400
their own coon hats but you know i like to give them to people who i feel earn one like jd i gave

490
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:26,360
her a coon hat after she was a really good sport about being stuck in the titan twisties i i wasn't

491
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:31,000
going to bring her name up but she was the vehicle we had to recover quite quite frequently in titan

492
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,480
twisties and i gave her a coon hat after that because she was a really cool sport about it

493
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:41,320
she told us i thought the coon hat was for uh for the the flood support or the hurricane release

494
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:49,320
no no no when she came and dropped your trailer off at my house they hijacked my coon hat and

495
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:55,240
stole that's right held it for rant and held it for ransom i got mine back and then i gave her

496
00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:03,880
a team you won uh for being a good sport about essentially having to wench like every 30 40 yards

497
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:11,240
but that's right she told us that story on her episode how many how many have you have you

498
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:20,920
interviewed uh you two and jd i think that i think you just need to start interviewing someone from

499
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:28,840
mst every night just like a 20 minute interview oh my god start with a good one to be that'd be a

500
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:36,760
that'd be a maybe double them up too like if you had uh like craig borland and casey wagner i mean

501
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:45,240
those guys are really really really knowledgeable um their rigs are super the ultimate the ultimate

502
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:51,640
showdown well they're so polar opposites on the spectrum you know and and it's it's it's yeah i

503
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:56,120
don't know i i but casey and casey's super knowledgeable he's been out west craig as well

504
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:03,640
i mean they're both they're both great guys to to pick their brains on things from yep i've been

505
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:08,840
wanting to get casey on i just haven't actually reached out because we always have something that

506
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,640
week coming up dude start doing like 20 minute mini episodes because like yeah you talk to people

507
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:20,040
like craig and casey who've done some really cool stuff um or like you can do a youtube episode with

508
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:26,600
like scott from trail expedition and then corey um you know that you can do a youtube like what

509
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:31,320
is youtube anyway yeah we're getting off topic here i'll bring it back in we're almost up to an

510
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:39,000
hour um yeah we're just about done jackson jackson rabar would be a good one to talk to too because

511
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,960
he's got a lot of knowledge as far as sure landing but he also has a lot of like knowledge as far as

512
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:50,280
like the inner workings of general motors which is pretty cool if you pick his brain on some of that

513
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:58,360
yep anyway yeah shout out shout out to all those there's lots of people shout out to all those

514
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:03,080
guys or mario he could he could talk to you for two hours about each and every one of his vehicles

515
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:12,600
he's got he's got more rigs than i do i think yeah he's got the oh we also uh we had patrick

516
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:20,200
kissman oh yeah all with that sick first gen yeah that forerunner sweet for sure i've never seen it

517
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:26,360
in person but it's not a forerunner it it's it's not even a it's not even a forerunner it's a truck

518
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,920
with a forerunner welded to the back yeah i mean it looks just like a forerunner it's awesome uh

519
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:38,200
i it's so cool i'm on i'm on the list of uh if he ever sells that thing let me know

520
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:47,640
you know it uh and it rides surprisingly well um yeah it's very comfortable right yeah he drives

521
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:53,880
it up from like kansas to visit his folks like yeah something being like that built that's pretty

522
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:58,120
yeah that's pretty impressive like the xj i couldn't drive it to pick my kids up from school let alone

523
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:06,120
four states away oh however many yeah he came over when he was up here last it was man that

524
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:14,200
thing's cool yeah i'm all i'm all i'm all about all right guys quantity over quality i just have a

525
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:26,360
lot of rigs not one cool one i have uh neither quality or quantity so i have two rigs and they're

526
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:32,440
both in varying stages of disrepair one that runs and one that doesn't so and then you get in derrick's

527
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:38,440
you know derrick's plush lexus that's got vibrating warm heated steering wheels and

528
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:45,320
you know like that one time when we where'd we go we were going campsite scouting and you threw me

529
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:51,400
up to the ceiling but like i was so surprised you off that rough baby yeah dude but i was so surprised

530
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:59,080
how like nice it was in there i'm like dude and and it's what almost 20 years old yeah yeah those

531
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:04,760
lexuses are nice for sure that's it's it's kind of a weird dynamic when you're like doing rugged

532
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:09,320
hardcore off-road stuff but you're sitting inside of a nice plush lexus

533
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:18,680
yeah i we might be buying a new rig uh as a daily here soon and it's going to be the same kind of

534
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,920
thing very plush inside and very rugged what do you think it's

535
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,600
uh we'll talk about it when we're not recording because i don't really want to put it out yet in

536
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:32,280
case it doesn't understandable work all right fellas i have to wait i know what it is i know

537
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,080
what it is you're getting it you're getting a terrain all kt4

538
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:53,960
dude that's dead on how did you guess that all right well all right see you guys later