Wha...
No.
Welcome to Botch's Off-Road Podcast.
Today we're just doing a quick and dirty.
I've got lots of background noise and everything.
I mean, it's dirty as dirty can be.
The Drummond Island Off-Road Club just had their meeting about what happened to Marblehead
and I got one of the botches here.
He was able to get into the meeting and listen.
They wouldn't let me in as botch is off-road.
So whatever.
But all right, Duncan, if you want to kind of lay out what you heard today.
Definitely.
Yeah.
So it was the first of the annual meetings that they're doing.
So they kind of covered a few of the agendas and stuff and some of the accomplishments
they had last year at Trail Cleanups.
And obviously one of the source spots they talked about was the construction of the steps.
And I know that a lot of us in this club and a lot of the other clubs around Michigan had
questions about who knew about this kind of stuff and what the plan was from the DNR.
It sounds like the Off-Road Club up there in Drummond Island was kind of kept alive
in name only by the Tourism Association.
So it wasn't actually the case that the club was doing much until about early last year
or the year before.
And at that point, it kind of sounds like the DNR communicated through a couple individuals
rather than the clubs at all.
So when they initially spoke to one of the more senior members, they kind of laid out
the full scope of the project, which was to block off access to the overlook and make
sure that people weren't driving all the way out to the ledge and damaging that.
And as part of that, they talked about how to get down there.
And the senior member went out there with a few of the other people from the Jeep community
and talked about plotting out a route to kind of bypass the steps so they wouldn't damage
it.
And after some back and forth to the DNR, the DNR was unsure as to how that would be
possible.
And then later on, so last year, they reached out to one of the newer members of the Off-Road
Club and spoke to them about it.
And it was to her understanding that the scope of work was that they were going to go out,
block off the overpass and that they were going to demolish part of the mini steps.
Which is on its own really bad because the mini steps were one of the coolest features
out there.
Absolutely.
And, you know, in speaking with them, she got the impression that they were going to
demolish part of the steps so they could get out there and leave everything else untouched.
And either through dishonesty with the DNR or with miscommunication to the contractors,
when they went out there, they not only demolished part of the mini steps, but they went out there
and they demolished part of the main steps too.
And obviously that's what's created all the pictures and the circulation, the outrage.
And they made they made a mess because they pushed all those rocks right up into the woods.
I mean, it's it's not even an attractive trail anymore.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And that was one of the big complaints that, you know, a lot of the members in the local
clubs had, you know, it just it seems like there's this two tiered system that, you know,
it's rules for the but not for me.
And, you know, and just like you said, they demolished the steps and they didn't even
haul off the rocks or anything.
They just dumped them right by the treeline.
And there were a lot of complaints just about how hideous it looks and the fact that now
you've got this big, you know, four to five foot drop off right at the edge of the trail
onto these boulders and how they're going to take care of that.
And you know, it was it was a productive meeting.
And I think everyone realized that, you know, there needed to be better communication.
And from what it sounded like to me, I think a couple of individuals got a hold of it,
didn't think it was as big of a deal.
But I think the DNR and you full well what they were going to go in there and do and
maybe try to play the cards close to the chess and hope they could sneak by one or two people.
And you saw it in the you know, in the press statement, they said we spoke with the Off-Road
Club and they said they were OK with this.
And like I said, I think they kind of they knew what they were doing.
They came in from different angles, tried to get one or two people to sign off and they
were like, yep, good enough for us.
Let's go for it.
So and were there any DNR members in the meeting at all?
No, no.
And that was something we spoke about, I think, in these future meetings, you know, which
I plan to attend and which a lot of the other members of this club and some of the other
clubs are going to plan to attend.
We are going to try to get the kind of the project manager and like the guy who gives
the approvals for these projects in on these meetings.
They do have a point of contact.
They do know who to speak to.
It's just a case of getting them to open up.
And I think they did attend some of the meetings and they addressed this individual who worked
with the DNR.
I think after pressing him and poking him and saying, did you really get the buy in
with the Off-Road Club?
I think he kind of claimed clean and said, well, no, we didn't.
Yeah, it just.
You know, it's been said a lot.
We as a podcast have kind of danced around the subject.
We haven't really been at the forefront of all the Drummond Island drama like we should
have.
But it's been said time and time again that the DNR was so freaking sneaky on this one.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Like I said, they had an agenda and they just knew they need to get enough buy in to get
in there and do it.
And there were a lot of people who said, you know, did you see the doses coming in?
Didn't you see them moving the equipment into place?
And everyone said, yeah, we did.
But we didn't think they were going to do that.
And I don't know.
What can you do?
You have to stand out there and police the DNR and watch them do the work.
I don't know.
I mean, it worked.
Where was that?
Where a bunch of people went out and kept them from putting in the solar panels?
Yeah.
I don't know who it was.
Some individual in one of the bigger clubs here called Wind that they were looking at
demolishing.
I think it was 400 acres of forest up there for a potential solar farm project.
And they got out early.
They had enough, you know, far enough.
And they created quite a stir in some of the clubs.
And a lot of the club members reached out to their senators and their representatives.
And I'll be damned if they didn't get exactly the response they wanted.
And I think we managed to dissuade that, if not shut it down completely.
So we we shut it down because they went out to do something.
And there were guys sitting there with ARs like you ain't you ain't doing this.
And they just left.
Yeah.
I mean, it it sucks that that's where we're at.
But that's why the two ways there is government overreach just like this.
And I think it's just the fact that they find the path of least resistance, that they see
a piece of state park land and they're like, well, we can get rid of this.
No one's really going to care.
But it's just like a lot of people said, like Drummond Island and those steps there at Model
Head were the premier attraction in Michigan.
Like I think we both said it multiple times.
Yeah, probably the hardest obstacle in Michigan and probably one of the premier destinations
in the Midwest, maybe.
I would definitely.
Yeah, we ain't got much in the Midwest.
I mean, what do we have?
Mud.
Most people don't like mud.
We like to go out and do stuff without just destroying our rigs.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And the steps and everything that that stood for really drew a lot of, you know, a lot
of people to that area.
And I like I said, I think it was just one of those things where it was a rude awakening
to everyone that, hey, we need to start paying attention to this stuff, you know, because
it's not just going to impact the off road community.
I'm sure the tourism industry up there and, you know, did I think is what they call themselves.
I'm sure it hurts them, too.
So you know, there just there needs to be a little more proactiveness.
And I think moving forward, you know, I'm confident that we kind of know what we need
to do.
And I think now it's just going to be a case of, you know, just trying to keep you rid
of the ground.
If you hear inklings of little things, just like with the solar farm project, you know,
if you if you see the DNR host in these meetings, I think it's just going to be a case of you
don't have to be a member of a club.
I don't think you have to be anyone of any high importance of power.
Just show up, say, hey, you know, I love this community.
I love to off road here and I have opinions about the things that are being done.
And I'm afraid that it might hurt, you know, the hobby I love and one of the biggest draws
that we have for tourism in Michigan.
Yeah, for sure.
And I mean, even sorry if for anyone who realized I quit talking, I had to be because the kid
was thrown a fit.
Like I said, quick, quick and dirty.
Lots of background noise.
Yep.
Yeah, that's what this is.
Trying to trying to keep it fresh.
So there was a lot that was talked about.
Yeah, the it just it gets me because even as someone going to Drummond Island, I'm less
likely to want to go to Marblehead now.
I mean, even if I was just liking because it's just not pretty anymore.
And we've seen the ripples.
We've spoken about this.
You know, I think Jeep has rescinded the badge of honor associated with the model.
I think they gave it times and they gave it back.
But I don't know if it stayed.
Let me check real quick.
I think they took it away in an immediate response.
They gave it back.
And then it was to my understanding that they went in, took a second look and took it back
again.
I just closed that window.
Yeah, it looks like it does not exist anymore.
I know.
And I mean, so now, you know, Michigan, we don't have a lot of badge of honor trails
anyway.
And no, as much as I mean, I'm a Jeeper, so I guess I can't talk too much crap.
But the Jeep badge of honor, it really is a way because people are out searching to
try and get all of them.
And if we're losing the only one in Michigan, now they have almost no reason to come here
at all.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think it I think it's an awakening for the rest of us.
I mean, we let them slip by this one time and they went and demolish half the steps.
I mean, who's to say they don't go in there at some other point and finish the job?
Who's to say they don't go down to, I mean, Skiddi Hill?
We've been there a whole bunch of times.
You know, we took a couple of outbreaks there.
It's our officers.
Skiddi Hill is in downtown Detroit.
This is what happens when you don't take care of roads, DNR officers, you let the roads
get so bad that we use them as off road obstacles.
Exactly.
Fix Detroit, please.
Downtown Detroit.
Again, downtown Detroit.
It is not in northern Michigan at all.
Nope, no, nowhere near where we are.
But you know, the point also came up, you know, the DNR are not strangers to this place.
There are officers out there all the time.
And credit to the DNR, the field agents they do have a spread pretty thin.
But a lot of people said they've seen the DNR out there.
They're doing best studies.
They're doing all kinds of wildlife studies, conservation efforts.
But then those same officers aren't going out there and, you know, taking a slightly
different track, enforcing a lot of things like safety.
Like, you know, there are a lot of vehicles driving really fast.
There's a lot of open containers of alcohol, a lot of people drinking.
And for all the presence the DNR has, they don't seem to do anything about that.
And when they do do it, they do it to, you know, Jeeps and Toyotas.
But they leave the side by sides alone.
And that drives me up a wall because our biggest issue in Michigan off road trails.
And I think I think this is kind of universal and trails in general is side by sides are
just freaking terrible.
They're tearing up the corners.
They're throwing their trash out the side.
I mean, just all around side by sides are a huge part of our problem.
They are.
I don't like to put anyone else down.
You know, I'm sure if I got into a side by side, I'd absolutely love it.
I mean, Lord knows our Toyotas are so slow and underpowered and we're crawling around.
But I think that then puts the onus a little more on these people with these, you know,
turbocharged side by side.
You can get up going so fast and just access a lot of the trails that we can't get to.
If they're out there rotten stuff up and they're driving dangerously and things like, you know,
again, not to point fingers of blame, but we we all just need to kind of do our bit
to keep things safe, you know, because all it takes is one or two people breaking the
rules and making things worse.
And they could go in there and they could shut it down.
They could say no one is accessing these trails anymore.
Right.
And I agree.
I want to I don't like to put anyone down.
It's just my way of looking at it is the barrier for entry with a side by side is so much lower
than the barrier to entry with a full size rig because a full size rig you spend, let's
say my forerunner, for example, I've got 10 grand into that rig and it can do a lot of
things, but they're side by sides that can far out do what it can do.
And I can go buy one of those for 20 grand and spend no time working on it and just go
tear up trails.
Yep.
And back in the day when it was just the full size rigs and maybe quads and dirt bikes,
whatever, they have their own thing going on.
But when it was mostly just full size rigs, the trail stayed pretty OK because it took
so much more to get to those spots, so much more work.
And we respected it because of that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And you know, one of the things is that the DNR claimed that a lot of the improvements
to stuff they're doing is that they want to make those trails two wheel drive accessible.
I think the specific language they use was for two wheel drive, like, you know, rear
wheel drive pickup trucks and stuff.
And I guess I see the point.
I could see where you're coming from, but at the same time, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't mean to be a gatekeeper and stuff, but if you can't get out there and you can't
do the trails, I mean, that tough, that's kind of the point.
Like, I'm sorry if you can't get your Prius or your pickup truck out there, but I don't
think that that justifies you going through and demolishing this nationally recognized
trail and this previously or prior Jeep badge on a trail just so those one season, two season
can get in there.
I don't know.
That's not a good enough excuse.
Mind you, these spots were not inaccessible to foot traffic.
You could always walk out to Marblehead.
You can always get out there.
And that alone to me, there's no reason for a two wheel drive vehicle to be able to get
out there.
Now.
Okay.
You could say, uh, handicap people would have a harder time.
Well, then they should get a four wheel drive.
They should get something else to get out there.
And you've got to say like, what is your end goal here?
Like you want more tourism and more accessibility.
Okay, fine.
But then does that justify you going out there and destroying the trails and tearing the
place up, losing an entire other side of the tourism industry?
I mean, I just, I can't see where the DNR is coming from on this one.
A lot of times I can at least see the DNR side, but this side, I don't see anything.
I don't get it.
I don't think there was anyone complaining about the trails being so hard that they couldn't
enjoy them.
Like for a lot of us that served as a motivator.
We were like, gosh, you know, I'd love to build a rig one day.
They can get up the, you know, the, uh, the stairs at Marblehead, you know, and gosh,
I want to get to this, you know, this challenge and, you know, like, you know, climb this
proverbial mountain.
And it was always fun seeing the people go out there and try to do it and, you know,
coaching each other through it and bringing the new people up through the ranks and seeing
if they could make it through.
But I don't know.
And now I've got a permanent scar because the steps at Marblehead are what took out
my frame and I would never be able to go up that section without breaking my frame again.
I know.
And I mean, the point is that now it's a vehicle wide, I think there's, there's pretty much
one way to get up.
And I mean, I don't know.
I just, but I think it started a conversation and that was good.
And you know, when we ended the meeting out, there were a lot of talks about, well, what
do we do next?
And you know, the, the off-road club was saying, you know, we're getting ready to look at the
2025, 2026 agenda and what kind of projects you want to put into place.
And there was a lot of talk about doing things, you know, like getting porta parties out there,
you know, getting better trash collection and things like that to kind of open up tourism.
And you know, one of the points raised by the members that I think was a really good
one, I think may have some traction is can we take some of those ATV trails that are
currently, you know, I mean, what 40, 50 inches wide, can we widen those out to full, full
by full width so that we have more area to, you know, to drive around in, like can we
create new trails or don't widen them, leave them the way they are.
People with smaller rigs, they're going to go down them.
What that's going to do is slowly widen them naturally.
And then your bigger rigs can get to them later.
And that leaves it where it's actually a challenge for, but for example, we both drive third
gen forerunners.
We're really small.
Oh, yeah.
We can get through a lot of those ATV trails and just us going down.
It is going to open it up for someone like, say, Mark, who's got, you know, a second
gen Tacoma.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I'm always amazed seeing, you know, our third gen is next to the fifth gen, such as
how relatively small those rigs are.
And I agree.
I agree.
I think there's some wiggle room there and I think there's a chance that we can kind
of claw some of this back and make some more trails up there.
One of the members of the Off-Road Club did raise the point that some of these areas that
are only accessible by ATVs are done so because they're around environmentally sensitive areas.
And so I don't think any of us are advocating that the whole island should just be free
Rome.
But at the same time, you know, like we kind of, I don't know, we let the DNR slide with
this one.
Like, what are they going to do for us?
Like, can we open up some of these other trails to other people and can we kind of reestablish,
you know, Drummond Island as a place that people want to go to again, despite what's
happened there?
And sadly, man, I'd love to see Drummond Island as a free for all.
But at the same time, there's a lot of stuff on Drummond Island that is just it's only
there and a free for all is going to destroy it.
Yeah.
And like I said, it doesn't just impact the off-roading community.
It impacts all the people up there, all the businesses, all the tourism.
And yeah, I think this was just a tough lesson that we learned the hard way that we didn't
really pay as much mind or as much attention.
I don't think we, you know, throw up as much dust and as much smoke as we should have.
And we didn't make this as big an issue as it actually was.
And I think the DNR, you know, whether by the right way or the wrong way, they slipped
it by us and they went in there and they did the work that, you know, has impacted the
steps the way it has now.
So you said they're going to do these meetings annually.
They're not going to do these like monthly or anything?
Monthly.
They are doing them monthly.
So I would.
Yeah, I was going to say I would.
Yeah.
If you get in there once a month, we can do one of these once a month.
Just kind of a little recap.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I would I would highly recommend, you know, if you're not on Facebook, I mean, I'm not
saying get in there and, you know, fully involved, but create an account.
Go ahead.
Go follow the Drummond Island Off-Roading Club.
Follow that page.
Stay up to date on the meetings.
You know, keep up to date on these things and make a showing.
You know, I'm not saying go there and create a stink, but just be aware, make your voice
heard and, you know, try to contribute positively.
Don't be a Chibs McDonkian.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, to be fair from the little bit, I did see it didn't look like Chibs was being
disrespectful at all.
No, no, I don't.
I don't think anyone was disrespectful.
I just I love that persona for that individual who I'm not going to air out on this, but
it's just a great persona, man.
And it's it's the tough pill to swallow, you know, as you know, as much as I respect all
the members of the Off-Road Club and stuff, there are always going to be times where you
have to deal with angry people and the angry public.
And, you know, some people are going to voice those opinions a little bit louder than others
and maybe in a little more of a, you know, a brash way.
But I think we're all rightfully upset.
And I think we all realize that, you know, what what happened here wasn't a mistake and
it wasn't oversight.
And, you know, I don't think we need to hold it against each other.
But I think we should use it as a motivating factor and kind of a unifying force that we
all use moving forward to make a better difference and to make sure this stuff doesn't happen
again.
We definitely need to stay more involved than we were because we really just kind of took
Michigan for granted and just kind of let the DNR, you know, whatever they said was
it.
And we can't do that anymore.
Not after this.
No, you've just it.
And it's sad that that's what it takes.
It's sad that you have to kind of, you know, trust but verify.
But if that's the game we have to play, then, you know, we either play that game or something
like this happens again.
Yep.
Well, all right, man.
I guess going forward, we'll just kind of have you on for anyone that doesn't know.
Duncan is one of the non podcast man.
Sorry, one of the non podcast members of MST.
We do have some of those, by the way.
You do.
I think we got what?
Three.
Yeah, because there's six of us total.
So there's three that aren't part of the podcast.
Yeah, man.
It'll be nice hearing from you in the future and keeping the people informed.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I appreciate the chance to talk and yeah, I'm glad I got to make my debut here on the
Botch's Off-Road podcast.
So thank you very much for having me.
Yep.
Catch you later.