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Welcome to botches off road. Join us as we talk about everything from gear reviews to
trail stories, tank camping to rock climbing and all things to do with the outdoors. Today
is an Orthology episode because it's a new month and we have a new magazine to read through.
I think we're going to do two articles. They're kind of shorter ones, but and they go together.
So it made sense to just do both of them. But I'm pretty sure that we're going to read.
Yeah, we'll have time for both. So how are you guys doing? We're doing good. Yeah. Gavin
Gavin's alive. Yeah. I live a little heart attack, but ain't gonna stop me. Yeah. What
the hell, dude? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, man. It, uh, like I said, it's happened before.
I guess I have something wrong with one of my mital valve or some, some like that. But,
uh, yeah, I was just driving and, uh, my chest got real tight and my leg got numb. And I
was like, yeah, I think I'm gonna head to the ER. And I went and they measured my triptonin
or something like that. The levels there and they were high. And, uh, yeah. So that was,
uh, that was pretty fun. Um, I haven't been drinking as many monsters and I'm taking my
blood pressure medication now. So I should be alive for a couple more years at least.
And yeah. Yeah. Before we get to on that note. Yeah. Before we get too far into this, uh,
what's everyone drinking tonight? Anything good? Um, smart water. I have the last can
of the Baja variety pack for hard. Oh yeah. You're still drinking that crap. It's the
last one. Yeah. I have had four screwdrivers and I'm about to open my last spicy beer.
Gross. They're so good, dude. Blake's hard cider, mango habanero. They are so good. Yeah.
I didn't even acquire a taste that I did not acquire. Did you even try it? Yeah. It tasted
exactly like hatch chili. And I was like, Nope, done. Because I had a, I don't, the
ones that you left here had the exact amount that we're supposed to be in the Friday pack.
Oh, I had two of them. Yeah. There was exactly the right amount. Yeah. Yeah. The, I tried
the hatch chili and the other pack that I had and I was like, yeah, no, I'm good. Uh,
it reminded me a lot of the Jones soda company. They make a hatch chili, uh, soda and it tastes
a lot like that, but with alcohol. And I was like, yeah, I'm done. I'm good. It just tastes
delicious. I don't know what your problem is. Yeah. I'm, I've got like, right now I'm looking
at more than a six pack worth of empties on my desk because I'm a slob and haven't cleaned
them up. That's a you problem. That's a you problem. I think you're the only one that
likes spicy beer. Oh, I like it. You're the same. Me and Mark together go through a lot
of these. Yes. Who else? Uh, Jeep, Derek liked it and Brian sweet likes it. No. And, um,
Duncan liked it. Yep. They all lied. It's just being nice to you. No, it's really good,
right? Highly recommend to all the listeners out there. Yeah. Okay. Well, uh, I know. Why
don't we start the, uh, the first article, um, called winter overlanding, uh, by Jason
Fletcher. And, uh, the first part starts, uh, just like this, uh, winter overlanding
can be a thrilling and rewarding experience. Whether you're tackling snowy trails, camping
in sub zero temperatures, or just exploring frosty landscapes. Preparation is key. Here's
some essential tips and insights for winter overlanding enthusiasts drawn from the years
of experience. Um, and then the first start, it goes, uh, embrace the challenge. Winter
transforms ordinary trails to into unique challenges. Snow, ice and freezing temperatures
can make even the basic gravel road and adventure with the right preparation. You can not only
survive but thrive in these conditions. Um, we did, we definitely learned that unless
you're in the up. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, just don't winter camp in the up. Yeah. It's already
hard with all the snowmobile trails and stuff. Anyway, the deep snow is crazy, but, uh, we
learned that on poker run, even with the light amount of snow, it did change the trail conditions
considerably. Oh yeah. Even, even Northern, uh, lower peninsula, it's really hard to do
it just cause they're so like camping is fine, but there's so many snowmobile trails. Yeah.
It's really hard. And then of course you have the, the deep snow. Uh, I just went out here
last week and for like a recovery mission here and, uh, got into some really deep, wet
snow and that changed the whole trail made what easy off-camber situations you start
sliding off the side of the trail a little bit and you're like, Ooh, we should definitely
talk about that real quick. So first off screw that group for not accepting that lady when
she needed help. Yeah. So, uh, originally what had happened is I got up for work, uh,
one morning and a woman made a post on one of the off-roading, uh, off-road groups, uh,
that I'm on and said that her husband and son were stuck and they needed help. And,
uh, I was a little early. I figured, you know, I was pretty close to them, uh, just judging
by the area. She was saying, I was like, all right, I'll go out. I mean, you know, it couldn't
be too bad. And then, uh, so I put the pen in and turned out it was an hour away, tried
contacting her, couldn't get her, you know, couldn't get any contact with her. Uh, we
tried messaging on Facebook. We tried commenting and asking for nothing. Uh, but you know,
I kinda, I kept thinking about the eight year old and the kid, you know, stuck and thought
about my kid and was like, you know what? It's worth it more to just go out and, and
make sure. So I, uh, so I headed out and did that told work. I'd be a little late and,
uh, everything was pretty easy until I got there. I got on the trail and didn't look
like there was much marks, but there's a lot of trails to get to it. So it was a, a blue
trail in the summer, if that helps anybody on Onyx. And, uh, it definitely, definitely
earned some blue trail in the summer, I guess it was, had some good off camber stuff that
you guys would have loved. And, uh, we got to, I was, I hadn't aired down yet, which
was kind of dumb, uh, for the trail. It was, it probably needed it. And some of these,
uh, some of these holes were starting to get kind of big. And I was starting to see, you
know, starting to lose grip a little bit. Um, my tires were spinning, um, not super
used to the snow in that condition. We had a couple of days of it melting and, uh, and
then it kind of snowed again. So it was all just super heavy for this. You know, it was
like, I'd say four inches at the lowest and six to eight inches, I mean, at the tallest
and for snow up there. And yeah, my truck, uh, it felt like it was struggling. I don't
actually know if it was, but I felt like I was losing speed. And so I kind of felt the
pressure with that. And then wanting to be able to even get out to help those people.
And I guess I got, I got just a little anxious or something, stopped, uh, stopped trusting
my instinct and gut and, um, took, uh, took a couple of deeper holes than I was supposed
to. And then I hit one and I was trying to keep my speed up and had another hole in front
of me. It didn't look bad, but I could tell it was the main, you know, like a main deep
hole. Uh, but like I said, I was trying to keep my momentum and the bypass was a real
sharp right. And I knew I would slide a little bit and I didn't want to slow down and lose
traction. So I was like, all right, we'll just gonna, we're just gonna hit it. And boy,
it was deep. Uh, uh, my, you know, you guys know on some of these off camber ones that,
you know, my hitch scrapes, Oh dude, that thing dragged through the dirt. And, uh, I
went straight down the, some ice was covering water over the hole. Uh, and then, you know,
refroze. So it was deeper than it actually looked. And I sunk my whole left side up,
past, you know, just a bit past the floorboards, um, could barely open my door. Um, and you
know, I was like, Oh dude, I could get out of here. So I started moving a little bit
back and forth and like, yeah, it's, uh, it's not going well. I'm just going to grab my
traction boards and try and use that. And then, um, grab my shovel, my traction boards and
my muck boots, which I keep in the truck just in case anything happens, I need winter boots
or deep boots and, uh, started kind of digging around the tire. Um, first mistake, plastic
snow shovel, um, wasn't good for getting solid chunks of ice and snow that was, you know,
really wet out from the front of my truck. So we need to get you a real pioneer kit.
Yeah. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to buy a new shovel. That's definitely on the list
now. Um, shovel and ax and I forgot, I have the ax. Yeah. What's the third part of a pioneer
kit? Is it shovel and ax fire starter? No rope. What now? We always put them in a T pickaxe
maybe. That's why I said pickaxe. Oh, I didn't hear that. I'm sorry. But, uh, yeah, no, it
was, uh, it was hard. Uh, my main issue was my left rear. Um, everything else was okay.
Uh, locked the diff and that left side just wasn't moving because of how deep that rut
is that I, that I ended up sinking into. So I dug out the front as best I could, but I
couldn't get much over what I had. I got like two inches deep before shovel couldn't do
it. And then my, the rear tire was pretty, um, pretty clean the rear side of it. So I
dug that out pretty well through a traction board under it. Um, and then through a traction
board on the front left one too, because that was the other side that was sunk down a little
deeper and I started to gain a little bit, started creeping back. I was doing okay. And
then all of a sudden I just lost all traction and I get out, I looked down and that hole
where I had it all clean and dug out, uh, was full with water. So there's, uh, once
that water got in there, uh, the traction board was doing nothing. Uh, so that was,
uh, that I almost had an instance and I was super proud. I was going to be like, Alex,
the traction board, it finally worked. I tested it. And then, uh, and then, Nope. As soon
as that water poured in there, that traction board, which this is a cheap traction board
made out of plastic, they do have some with, well, they do have some with metal studs in
there that would have helped a lot. Um, they all, they all work the same. They work the
same, but I feel like if it had something to grab onto, it might've helped better. Um,
I, I, you know, I've watched so many, I've watched so many videos of traction boards
and the only time I've seen people actually get out with them is when they honestly could
have got out by rocking their truck. Yeah. And that's about the point, but I, I do think
with, you know, how I was stuck, I wasn't getting out by rocking. And if I would have,
I honestly think if I would have been able to dug out the front of the tire, uh, that
I would have been able to get out with them, uh, because that side wasn't the part that
was filling up with water. It was behind it deeper, but living, you learn, um, the traction
boards were not working at that point. Um, I put a, uh, moving blanket over the traction
board, uh, to help give the tire a little bit more grip. And it did work a little bit.
I got up and out of that, like first part and then sunk back into the hole after I tried
pulling out and stopping, uh, I should have just floored it and I didn't want to rip up
my, uh, um, moving blanket, but yeah, that sucked. So like cat bucks. I know, but I just
didn't, they didn't want to rip it up and like have pieces everywhere. So I ended up
sliding back down into that. And then I was like, well, shit. And so kind of sat there
and, uh, talking with another guy in a West Michigan off road group, uh, Mike, and he's
like, yeah, I got another guy coming out. So I was like, okay, I'll just sit here and
look pretty. And, uh, little Ranger came by and he goes, are you Gavin? I'm like, yep.
And he goes, all right, well, I get my, uh, get my, um, uh, kinetic rope out of the back,
hook it up to him, hooked it up to my pen. He gave a little, a little tug, um, and pulled
me right out. No problem. So threw everything in the truck and we went down the trail and
we're kind of trying to chat up. He goes, I tells me on the way, Hey, you know, I, uh,
I'm from the area. I know that trail. Well, he goes, it's pretty interesting in the summer.
He goes, there's a pretty good hill climb on that trail. He goes, uh, in the winter,
that would be really, really rough. Uh, like in this kind of, uh, snow. And I'm like, huh,
okay. He goes, I went to the mouth of that trail and there was no tire tracks, no signs
that anybody had been on it recently. He goes, so I'm not really sure. You know, the post
is at 6 AM. He goes, I'm not really sure why anyone would be out there on a Monday. I'm
like, yeah, yeah, you got, you got a point. And so we chatted it up. Like I said, he explained
the trail conditions and stuff. And he goes, you know, we still haven't heard from them.
And I'm like, yeah, I, you know, I think it's not worth risking both of our rigs. Um, and
I said, and because no further contact has been made, you know, we should probably call
it off. And, uh, he goes, well, I'll take my, uh, side by side down at later if nothing
happens and I'll check it out to just double check and make sure I'm like, all right. So
as we're, uh, as I'm leaving, uh, probably about 30 minutes after I had aired up, cleaned
up, but everything back on my truck and left, um, we get a message with a screenshot saying,
uh, someone finally got ahold of her and she goes, oh no, I posted that like three, what
did she say? Like back like three or four months ago. And she's like, yeah, we'd already
gotten help by then. And I was like, oh, well, mother fucker. So it was a glitch in the matrix.
Someone was a little slow to approve her and the post. And, uh, it was a mistake. You know,
I, I no harm done on my side. You know, I got out, I was fine. Um, other than some gas
money, but you know, that is not, not any big deal. I mean, we obviously in these off
road groups, we try to make sure that people get approved as soon as possible for certain
things like that. So on the admins and mods of that group, it's on them a little bit,
but, uh, you know, they, I got praise from the group for at least going out and trying
and, uh, and, uh, you know, so, you know, another live and learn for me experience wise
in the snow. Um, and then, yeah, so that was a fun, and by the way, I will add right now,
if I had a winch, I would have been out of that in a minute. So that, that's further
solidified and Mike, the guy who I was chatting with was like, you need a winch. And I'm like,
I know, I know, I know. So, so that further solidified that and made me start prioritizing
winch stuff, which is a story for another time. Now, man, both of you within the next
like two months should be sitting on winches. Yeah. I, uh, I've been searching for winch
plate mounting brackets for, I mean, months and months and months, uh, and no luck, no
luck. Everything's, you know, at the least it's like four or five, $600. And the four
or five hundreds are kind of iffy, scary. And, uh, finally I went on marketplace and
I've been searching marketplace forever, but found a marketplace. There's a guy in Chicago
about four hours, three hours from me and he had one for 150 bucks. Fingers crossed.
I'm coming this Sunday to pick it up. And then, uh, there's a guy on our Facebook group
that's got a winch and everything, uh, that he's selling. So hopefully I'll buy that from
him and I will be set up and all good to go. Yeah. What's, uh, what's Casey looking for
out of that? Cause that's a bad lens, right? I think he said 400 with that and the, and
the lead, the lead he said was, I've heard of the lead before. Um, it sounded, uh, I
was, do you remember what lead you were talking about the one time that you were looking to
get? It looks like the lead that's on mine. Yeah. From, from what I've read, it's the
same lead that I'm running on mine right now. Right. Um, so my flat link. Yeah. So, I mean,
it would be nice. Uh, it definitely would have gotten me out of every stuck situation
I've been in so far. So obviously that's always good. So, but now that we, uh, we talked about
my little winter mishap, um, we'll get back into the, uh, into the article here and, uh,
for some key tips for winter overlanding winter transforms ordinary trails into unique challenges.
Snow ice, freezing temperatures. I just found a mistake. What? So they've got embrace the
challenge and key tips for overlanding, but it's the same chat or paragraph for both of
them. Oh yeah. You're right. I thought I had read that over again. I thought I was like,
whatever. So we'll move down. Yeah. We'll skip that. We'll go to cold weather gear. Proper
gear is the foundation of a successful adventure. Here are some essentials. Diesel heaters,
unlike propane heaters, diesel heaters provide warm, dry air without adding condensation.
They're efficient, safe, and can keep your tent toasty even in extreme cold. Uh, we did
have some experience with propane heaters and while they might be good in a pinch, they
are not good all night and long-term. If you seal everything up, um, clothing invest in
quality gear included insulating pants, wool socks, waterproof boots. Layering is essential
for warmth and flexibility. A heated jacket can also be a game changer for staying comfortable
around camp. So I got some things on this one. So for, uh, winter clothing, the army's
cold weather system is the cheapest for the money is the most effective route you could
go. Um, you're looking at like $300 tops for all five layers and you're good down to like
negative 20. And we're talking about the sleeping bag guys, by the way. No, I'm talking about
clothing. Oh, are you? I thought you were, I thought you were referring to the sleeping
bag. My, my apologies. No, no, no, no. The, the, yeah, the army's cold weather layer system.
I think there's five layers, uh, six, if you count the extreme cold weather parka, but
you're looking at somewhere between $400 for all of it. And you're just, you're good down
to like negative 20. Yeah. Um, yes, but the army sleeping bag best bang for your buck
cold weather sleeping bag. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so then we got boots and accessories, waterproof
insulated boots with excellent traction or a must. Don't forget gloves, hats, and extra
layers to stay dry and warm, which, yep, that's pretty, pretty obvious. And then we, what
hats are really important because you lose something like 80% of your heat out the top
of your head. Right. And if your ball is even worse, yes. Not, not that, not that I'm, I'm
not pointing anyone out. I'm just saying, I'm bald guys. I wear a hat all the time.
I am. I am bald, but, uh, yeah. And if your hands and feet are getting cold, your actual
core body is what's cold because your, um, your body's really smart and it moves that
warm blood to the part of your body that is actually cold. So when your fingers start
getting white and cold, you actually need to raise your core temperature up, not your
extremities. So gloves aren't going to help. They'll help a little bit though. I mean,
they do help, but the, the number one thing is if your core body's cold, your fingers
are going to get cold. Period. And if you feel like first there, yeah. And if you're
like me and you have poor circulation, uh, yeah, your fingertips and your toes are the
first to go. Yep. Uh, so vehicle preparation, your vehicle's readiness can make or break
your trip. A hundred percent true. Uh, tires, winter and all-terrain tires are crucial for
traction on snow and ice. Airing down your tires improves grip and can help prevent getting
stuck. And that is true for most winter conditions until, uh, I would say deep, deep snow. Then
mud kind of helps you a little bit get through that, but yeah, I'd say deep snow with no
ice. I do enjoy my mud trains, but again, that's, we get that what once a year, nine
times out of 10, it's maybe deep snow with ice underneath. So when you're, and when you're
prepping for, let's say tires and be realistic, um, uh, what is happening in your area or
the areas that you're going to travel, um, and don't get muds just because they look
cool, which is fine if you do that, I guess. But yeah, I mean, it might bite you in the
ass and later. I mean, as long as you know how to drive with them, muds aren't the worst
thing in the world. No, they're not worse. You just have to understand that you're not
going to go fast on ice. Your body on all trains is always going to be able to outpace
you on ice. Oh yeah. Uh, we definitely know that, uh, for recovery gear, always carry
essentials like D ring, soft shackles, kinetic ropes, and a winch. These tools can be lifesavers
in deep snow and icy conditions. Uh, you got safe driving practices. Sorry. Snow can conceal
hazards like rocks or stumps drive cautiously, especially on unfamiliar trails, keep trail
recovery gear easily accessible and travel with a buddy whenever possible. And then,
uh, sorry, I had to take a drink of water. Uh, camping comfort. Winter camping is all
about staying warm and dry, dry gear like, uh, I'm sorry, drying gear. A diesel heater
not only helps keep you warm, but can also help dry wet clothes and boots overnight.
Um, efficient packing, bringing extra clothes, blankets, and emergency supplies, keep electronics
charged and use the days driving to dry gear out and replenish battery powered equipment.
Also, if you have any battery powered equipment, um, in your vehicle overnight, just keep it
with you in your tent. If you can. Um, that'll also help with it from draining, uh, destinations
worth exploring for Midwest overlanders, Wisconsin and Michigan offer some of the best winter
trails. Menacee national forest of Michigan. And, Oh man, I don't know how to say this
one. Nicolette. Was it Nicolette? Nicolette. Nicolette. Yeah, I don't know. We'll have
to get a winter from Wisconsin. You see Wisconsin, Michigan. Cause very Michigan name. If you,
if you took out the CH, but T I see to common on, so I'm going to go to Chiquamon on, uh,
national forest and Wisconsin are prime spots for snowy adventures. If you're located elsewhere,
look for areas with reliable snow coverage and scenic weather landscapes. Um, and then
you get safety first, uh, winter conditions are unpredictable. Check the weather, stay
aware of road conditions and always err on the side of caution. Driving slowly and remaining
vigilant can help you avoid accidents, travel with friends when possible and ensure your
gear is prepared for emergencies. I personally, I say it, if you're on winter trails, you
should be with people. You should not be alone. No, I mean, that is the most dangerous, uh,
trail riding really, especially if you're doing like a solo camp trip. I mean, solo
camp trips are fine, but you need to have, like, I would say you need to have a winch.
You need to have a way to get yourself out. I mean, or maybe some kind of emergency contact
system like a garment in reach or something, because they're more mesh testing, but, uh,
if, if that stuff fails and you're out there alone and you have no way of getting ahold
of anybody and you better be prepared. So, yeah, I do personally, other than normal recovery
equipment and stuff, I do carry, uh, dry meals, MREs, and I do just keep them in my truck,
you know, six or so of them. They're two, two meals in each bag. Uh, if anything ever
happened or if I'm even lazy at camp one day, um, I'll make one of those and you have enough
to last you a week. So, um, might be good to have some, you know, spare foods, obviously
if you're camping, you have stuff to make fires and whatnot, but just some, uh, just
some thoughts there, but, uh, final thoughts on the, on the article, winter overlanding
opens up a world of possibilities. It's an opportunity to experience nature in a completely
different way away from crowds and the heat of summer with the right preparation. Winter
adventures can become some of the most memorable of your overlanding journey.
Can we talk about the fact that the biggest picture in this article shows fall time camping?
Hey, what the heck? What the heck? I mean, you gotta think of our winter had been kind
of mild depending on what time of year they went. Yeah. Our winters have sucked. Yeah.
It's, uh, not been the best. What do you guys think? What about article wise? What, uh,
got anything you'd like to add onto that? No, I think it's a good article. It's got
a lot of good points. Yeah. I think most of the points that I think we bring up. So, yeah.
Yeah. The next, I can read this one if you want. Sure. This one is, she calls it a unpopular
opinion, but honestly, I think this should be a popular opinion for everybody. I am going
to move this to my other monitor so it's easier to read. One second. Where did it go? Too
many monitors guys. I'm gonna, while he's doing that, I'm going to read you guys a little
story before this. There's a sign up near two hearted campground, Chris point lighthouse
on the Northern UP, um, a little ways off in Newsberry Newberry. Um, and this is what
the sign says at this spot on April 24th, 2015, the Michigan state police rescued two
sisters from Oklahoma and Nebraska who had their SUV stuck in the snow for 13 days. The
sisters survived on Girl Scout cookies, Cheetos, and other snack foods that they had with them.
So that sign is actually posted on the side of the road up to those Chris point two hearted
locations. Uh, as kind of a reminder for people, the UP is a, it's a, it's a dangerous place
if you're not ready. These people, um, well obviously it was into spring and the snow
is still, uh, pretty dang deep up there. Um, so I mean, when you on average, when you get
like 70 to 80 inches of snow in a winter, you can't expect that to go away very fast.
I mean, you're looking well into may or April before it's gone. Yeah. So these, uh, these
sisters were very lucky that they had snacks and, uh, and, and there have been stories
of people not doing as well. So, um, that's the, it's a good reminder. It's nice that
they put that out. Um, that kind of opened my eyes for me during my little escape trip,
uh, as I had mentioned, uh, and our radio chatter podcast, uh, that, you know, going
up there unprepared, um, can really lead you into some issues. So, yeah, that is a very
good story to put before this article. So, um, the article says unpopular opinion, gatekeeping
the UP social media groups are full of discussions and accusations of gatekeeping. When one party
feels like they are not getting traction in their requests for locations and trail info,
gatekeeping isn't necessarily bad. It helps ensure that special spots remain clean and
taken care of preserving them for our future. Just look at what happened to paradise point
near Christmas, an excellent camp area shut down due to the wrong people finding it. States
tariff fee of mitten state tours. Yeah. Uh, we recently witnessed a different kind of
gatekeeping and discussion in Michigan, overland regarding overlanding and camping in the UP
in the winter. This is also kind of gatekeeping. We can get behind and we, we want to explain
why the upper peninsula of Michigan is paradise for off-road enthusiasts when the season is
right. However, as winter blankets, the region and deep snow attempting to traverse off-road
trails becomes not only impractical, but also potentially dangerous. Even experienced off-roaders
and locals avoid these trails until after spring melt. If you're considering a winter
overland trip in the UP, here's why you should think twice. In the end, this isn't really
gatekeeping. It is a fair warning to those unfamiliar with the sort of weather and snow
conditions that may many just have not experienced. Yeah. Cause the snow up there gets deep, man.
People don't realize it. The, uh, there was actually a post about this on MST. Uh, and
someone was asking about doing an overlanding trip here in the winter up to the UP and,
and the general consensus by everyone was, Hey, don't, there are tons of snowmobile trails.
The other trails are extremely deep and dangerous. It's, it's not, um, it's not a place to really
overland. Uh, and you really need to know what you're doing and have a good plan. You
need to make sure the trails aren't, aren't being used by snowmobiles. That isn't offense
that is, uh, is enforced. So, and even, even if you go down a groom trail that isn't a
marked snowmobile trail, it's marked dual use, but it's still groomed. You're not only
going to be, you know, not only will it be, it might not be illegal, but the snowmobilers
are going to be very p dot pissed off with you and the businesses in the area rely on
snowmobiles to make their money in the winter. So they're going to get pissed off with you.
Let alone, uh, I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah. Let alone, it's actually dangerous for snowmobilers.
You're digging up, you're digging up, you know, 30 inch ruts and snow, uh, you know,
trying to get out of it because you're stuck and then it freezes or even just later in
the day, snowmobilers come hauling ass, which is pretty typical on these snowmobile trails.
They're not really looking for trucks and ORVs there. You come hauling ass and, and,
uh, and hit a 30 inch deep rut. Uh, yeah, that's a, that's a snowmobile death, um, or
severe injury. And I, it's not worth it. And we've heard of it. So we've heard of it before
2020. I was out with my father in law snowmobiling and I was, we were just bombing down a trail.
We were doing like 35, 40, cause he follows the law and follows the speed limit. So, I
mean, we weren't going fast, but we came up to a spot where a truck had gotten stuck and
my, my right side ski fell down in the rut and snapped the ski off. And that was a very
pricey repair bill and, and lucky if, uh, if I'd been driving the way I drive when I'm
not with him, I would have died. Yeah. And my dad, I cruise at like 85, 90. Yeah. Yeah.
My dad had a skidoo that he was taking on a trail. Um, there was a hole in the trail.
Um, this is around, I think bath, a wasso area, but, uh, there was a hole in the trail
and he hit that and launched himself and his snowmobile, um, into the tree and snowmobile
hit the tree behind or hit the tree while he was in front of it. So I crushed him. Uh,
he broke his, what a tubular. Well, what is that? The first part on your main leg, uh,
or is that fibula, something like that. The big part of the small. Yeah. The big one.
Oh, I broke the small one and didn't know it. He broke that. He broke that. He broke
a bunch of ribs. He broke an arm. He was just lucky that someone found him. Uh, because
at that time cell phones weren't super, uh, uh, super popular. There wasn't a lot of that
going on. So he was lucky someone found him and, uh, and he barely got out of that with
his life. So it's important to, uh, to know and plan as we said. Yeah. Snow depth is a
game changer. Many people from non snow regions often don't realize what it means to have
literally feet of snow on the ground. Even Hattieville modified off-road vehicles with
37 or 40 inch tires, front and rear rockers and experienced drivers struggle to make progress.
Snow wheeling is an extreme sport and it is not for those simply looking to take in the
scenery. For overlanders accustomed to dirt roads and scenic back country routes, winter
in the UP is a whole different level of challenge. One that most are not prepared for deep snow.
Like what you get in the UP is the one time that mud trains are good in the winter. Yep.
And your Subaru Crosstrek or the rooftop tent, you're stuck immediately. Why do you have
a rooftop? First off, why did you put a rooftop tent on a Subaru Crosstrek? It happens, man.
You see it all the time. There's one that drives around New Wago and drives me nuts.
It's not a small rooftop tent. Is that the one that's on the basket? It's not even on
like a good roof rack. Yeah. And it hangs out like two foot on either side of the car
and it hangs out like three foot in the front and two foot in the back. It's massive. I
have not seen this. I want to see it now. It looks so bad. But you get people that get a
Subaru Crosstrek and you know what? Nothing against you Subaru guys. You know, we love
Subarus for what they are. But oh no, I definitely have stuff against Subarus. No, shush. But
you know, you get guys with these little SUVs that say they're all wheel drive and then they're
like, oh, that means I can go anywhere. And then they there's a rooftop tent on top of their car
and then get stuck or try to do my episode of Louis. Yeah. He comes up to a trail.
This the sign says four wheel drive. Is our car four wheel drives? No, our car is all wheel drives.
And how many wheels do we have? Four. Yeah, that's that's exactly what they think. And look,
you know what? You know, no, don't do it. You know, I try to try to be nice and you know,
the half glass full kind of guy. But at the end of the day, when we're talking about UP and deep
snow like there is not uncommon for them to have three feet of snow. You know, it's it's you're
stuck. So yeah, I mean. Yeah. According to visit to visit Keweenaw, the Keweenaw snow gauge
is an iconic destination for travelers visiting the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
This life size snow gauge shows the Keweenaw's record snowfall that was set during the winter
of 78 to 79. The blizzard of 78. Go figure. During that winter, the Keweenaw received 390.4
inches of snow between November and April. Yeah. In contrast. So I know Mark knows where this is,
but Gavin doesn't. So do you know when you're going to my dad's house, Mark, how you go down
that hill and then up to his house? There's like that little valley right there. Yep. So in the
winter of 78, that valley drifted over and just looked like a straight road. Oh, so that's like
what? 30 foot high there, roughly 30 or 40 feet high. That's how much snow we're talking in the
winter of 78. Like it was, we've never seen a blizzard like that in our lifetime. Yeah. You're
talking about two feet in a night or less or more. You know, it was, they got over, they got seven
feet in like three hours in the blizzard of 78. Yeah. Here in Grant, anyway, up in the UP,
phew, yeah, phew. Physics and weather matter. Even if some trails technically allow access,
winter conditions dictate what is actually possible. This deep snow changing temperatures
and unpredictable storms can quickly turn an off-road adventure into a rescue situation.
Soft snow can swallow vehicles whole and self-recovery becomes nearly impossible without
the right equipment and experience. When winter takes hold, it's not about what's legal. It's
about what's physically possible and weather always wins. Yeah. Very much so. I mean,
winter is for snowmobiles. Snowmobiling is a major country contributor to local economies
and clubs invest significant time and money into keeping those routes in top shape. When
off-roaders attempt to push through, even if they're just crossing a snowmobile trail,
they risk damaging trails that aren't meant for vehicle traffic. This can create dangerous
conditions and disrupt an industry that many local businesses rely on to get through the winter.
As just like we were talking about earlier. Oh yeah. My experience is that when you're
my coworker went up by a house up there in the UP, they went to go out to eat dinner. Every bar was
filled with snowmobiles. I think they gave up trying to find somewhere to eat for how busy they
were. Oh yeah. People travel from other states to come up here. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's an every
weekend thing. Every weekend? Every week? All day? It's 24-7. I lived in Calcasca, which gets a
pretty fair amount of snow, which is still in the lower peninsula. Calcasca and the trails around
that area, which is the same kind of Cadillac area we were talking about, has significant snowmobile
trails around there. I mean, it's every weekend, everything's packed with snowmobilers. The motels
are packed. It's a major, major source of income for some of these people up there. And sometimes
it keeps them afloat so that they could survive. So this vehicle traffic, the driving off roads,
it really does impact more than just you. Right. Even locals stay off the trails. If the people who
live in the UP avoid these trails in the winter, that should say something. Even those familiar
with the terrain and accustomed to harsh conditions wait until after the spring melt before venturing
back into the backcountry when locals... Oh, I forgot a period there. I'm so sorry, guys. Before
venturing back into the backcountry. When locals who know the trails better than anyone choose to
stay off them, it's a clear sign that winter wheeling in the UP just isn't a good idea. Yep.
The verdict. Stay off the trails until spring. While winter off-roading may seem like an exciting
challenge, in the reality of the UP's extreme conditions, makes it a bad idea. For even the
most experienced snow wheelers with highly capable rigs, for those looking for winter adventure,
there are plenty of safer, more reasonable ways to enjoy the season. From snowmobiling to
snowshoeing or simply taking in the stunning winter landscapes from an accessible route.
The best time for overlanding in the UP is after the snow has melted when the trails are open,
safe and ready for exploration. Well said. Well said. Round of applause. Round of applause.
Yeah, that was a good article. Very much so. And, you know, like the title says,
it's not necessarily gatekeeping as it is a warning. Nobody wants you up there right then.
I know you want to do what you want to do, but people don't picture the amount of snow we get.
We get like Colorado mountain type snow. The UP definitely tops Colorado mountains.
Right. I mean, it's like double the depth. It's significant. I mean, you got to think we have
lakes surrounding us. We get in Michigan what's called lake effect weather, where the lakes are
so big that they actually affect the amount of snow that we get. They generate more snow. Yeah.
Right. So the whole left band of Michigan is under lake effect. What is it? New York?
That area? Yeah. Buffalo area. You ever hear about all the crazy snow that they get over there?
That's a major contributor from the lakes. So you have to think about that. The more north you go
into Michigan, the deeper the snow. And that's pretty common. So if you want to do some snow
overlanding, snow wheeling, stuff like that. Do it in lower Michigan. Yeah. Try it in lower Michigan.
Try around where we're at. The Everett area is really beautiful. Cadillac, if you know where
you're driving, like I said, there's a lot of snowmobile trails around that area. But if you
plan it out well, talk to locals in the area, make sure you know what's going on. That can be
a very beautiful area to go to. Yeah. Cadillac. I don't know. I feel like Cadillac maybe even ever.
It depends. If it's really deep snow, honestly, just stay away. Like I love snow wheeling. Oh,
yeah. I really love driving in deep snow, but I'm also a snowmobiler and I know how pissed I get
when someone's torn up the trail. Yeah. Like I said, it's it comes down to a lot of planning,
but Michigan snowmobile trails are, like we already said, a large income source for
people in the area. And you pretty much white, pretty much White Cloud North is. Yeah.
It's very heavy. Yep. After White Cloud, it's really heavily dependent on snowmobilers for
income for the rest of the year. Right. So that was a good article, man. Thanks to Northology and
Sydney Pope up there. We really do appreciate the she gives us a little shout out where we like to
read our articles, gives us a good topic to kind of go off of something that we don't always think
about all the time. And it's so we still got 15 minutes. So my question is, Mark, what did you do
off road last week? We know what Gavin did. Yeah. Yeah. That's the I think the only thing off road
that we did was rotate my tires. What about say all we did was go hang out with Derek.
Yeah. Jeep, Derek. I would say. Yeah, I still have a shake. I don't know what it is. I'm
I'm really over it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's it. Oh, and we planned out your new bumpers. You
want to talk about your new? Oh, yeah. So I've been trying to figure out for a while. My issue
has been with my current bumper and most bumpers for Tacoma is they so there's a subframe. I don't
remember what technically called. But I think it's your core support. I don't think it is. All it
does is hold up the skid plate. Oh, I thought it holds up the radiator. No. Oh, okay. Because I can
cut it off and doesn't affect the radiator. And the newer the third gen that does provide some
support for like your your power steering lines. Gotcha. Okay. Because in the new for the for the
that company when they so what I'm going to do is get a rock.
Right. I forget the name of the bumper. Anyways, I'm getting bumper for C4.
It essentially you get a skid plate relocation where you raise the skid plate up. So it's actually
more of a actual leveled surface and not just a weird chin underneath the bumper like most bumpers
are. So it can actually direct rocks down your bumper and then under you rather than down your
bumper and then into the skid plate mount. Yes. Yeah. Rock crawler is a bumper. I was trying to
remember what it was. Yeah. Anyways, so essentially, I'm going to get the bumper and then the
relocation delete of the crossmember raises it up and then it'll reinforce have a reinforcement
bracket which will keep from the bumper being pulled out like it did the last time.
Yeah, because your bumper you we pulled it out once it's a good two or three inches that it's
pulled out right now. Yes. And it's twisted his not his frame. It bent the frame horn at the end
just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's that was crazy. He was he was pretty stuck though.
It's not just from that event. No, it's from multiple times. I've been commenting on it doing
something weird for a while now because one side of his bumper wasn't touching his grill and head
light and the other side was so I knew it was twisted. I just couldn't figure out why. Yep.
But what does that help is that though the clevis holding area the clevis holes is literally above
the actual frame rails. So instead of using the frame, yeah, instead of using the frames for
support, it bends down or up off on the frame. Yeah, bad engineers, bad. But that's like most of
the bumpers like I've gone through and looked at them. Why them fixed it by reinforcing that. But
you look at a lot of the bumpers, they're not meant for actual off-roading like they're supposed to.
Oh, I just think it's a bad. Go ahead. Sorry. Oh, no, you're good. Keep going because mine's off
topic. I just think it's a bad. I almost want to say it's a bad design on Toyota's part
because they didn't give a good spot to connect a bumper like no matter what way you look at it,
that spot is not great for adding an off-road bumper. I mean, because I think any Tacoma newer
than or 2005 and newer all plastic bumpers begin with. Right. Yeah. I mean, so is even Devon's
one has like a hybrid metal and plastic bumper. That one was a mix or not. I just know old five
from office pretty much plastic bumpers. That's an off-roady thing I did. My little brother bought
a truck and I got to go with him to pick it up. It is the world's rustiest 2002 Tacoma. There you
go. Looks like hell. It's a crew cab short bed. The frame is literally one giant patch from front
to back, but it runs good. And for 3,500 bucks, I don't think he could beat it. No.
That's good. Let's see. Upcoming news for me. I have a going to get my winch plate from Chicago
here Sunday. I have a run up in Gladwin Saturday. There's an MST event. Yeah. There's two of them
actually going on. There's a Bronco run, MST event run, and Mike invited me to the Bronco run. So
I was going to go to Nolan's. He's a member of the MST. He's got a little open house or house
housewarming party. I was going to go to that, but with the kid having a RSV, we're going to
try to stay away from people and we're going to do that. That run up is going to be a little
and we're going to do that. That run instead, probably Saturday, hoping pray I don't break
anything. Yeah. I pretty happy for Nolan. His life seems to be turning around pretty good.
He's also a no agenda douche bag. So I have a really deep connection with him. He's a good guy.
He's a good guy. And I met him on MST on one of the trail rides. He's got a kid and,
you know, we, we, we bonded pretty good. You know, there's a lot of, a lot of good people out here
that do off-roading, they have kids and it's always nice to see someone else doing it too.
And his avalanche is, it's obviously capable because he spends all his time in end of the world.
And that's like the most hardcore mudding you can do in our area. So if anybody knows
Nolan, they know that he likes his mud puddles. He swerves for them while we all swerve around
him. He's a, he's swamp team East and me and Mark are team West. Yup. Yup. They, that, that they are.
I don't like to participate in swamp meets, but I've seen you in some pretty swampy shit though.
Yeah. You know what? I seem to be getting myself into more issues lately. I don't know if I'm just
getting cocky or you guys are bad influences. I think that you got a little bit of confidence
and now you think that you're unstoppable. Yeah. Well, I know I was, I was humbled.
I know I'm not unstoppable, but that was me. That was me back in May before I, you know, sunk my truck
in Grumman Island. Yeah. No, I'm not even chancing that, but I did want to bring up something that
you guys just want one thank you to the, to listeners. We really appreciate you guys listening
in on our podcast. We know it's still a work in progress and it's getting better every episode,
but I did want to do a little, do a little thank you. We, I don't know if you guys noticed this,
but we have 61 downloads on one of our, our radio chatter episode. What's your favorite
mod to your rig? So that's the, that's the highest amount of downloads that we've had on any of our
episodes yet. It's pretty exciting to see us up there at least. You know, it's not just that one.
Like we have a lot of episodes in the last month that are like over 40. Yeah. Yeah. We're starting
to pick up a little bit in the last 30 days. We've had 342, which is 77% up from the last month. So,
and I was on snail trail. So snail trail. Yeah. Clearly we're doing something. Yeah. I mean,
we've had a couple of guys like Benji Ward, Cindy Pope. Was it a traveling with cars or
shooting cars, shooting cars. Sorry. But we've had some, honestly for this, just beginning a podcast,
we've had some really good guests already. So it's, it's exciting to see that this is starting to,
starting to pay off. We're starting to gain a little bit of traction. We're seeing people
download from other countries. Crazy, crazy amount of spread that we're getting in that area. But
this, this is when we find out that all the downloads are actually bots and the internet's
dead and we're just the only ones pumping real content in. Oh man. Yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's
cool. I mean, we got most of our downloads, obviously from America, but we got, we got some
speckled around, man. It's, it's cool to see it. Cool to see it in other countries.
It's, we just want to thank you guys, man. Thanks for listening, putting up with us
being dumb or rambling and stick with it. And thanks for listening to me get drunk almost
every single Wednesday, whether you realize it or not. Yeah. Yeah. You, and you might,
you might realize it. I, this episode they may, I am pretty sloshed. Oh gosh. So I'm, I'm,
I had to go and take a break because I'm been drinking water like crazy, but that's,
like, it's going out of style. All of a sudden, when you drink a lot of water, you have to pee
a lot and it's kind of, it's kind of dumb, honestly. I purposely have not broken the seal,
but I got to pee so bad, but I know once I do, I won't stop. Yeah. Well, Hey, well that's, that's,
maybe we should go let you go pee then. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for joining me guys.
Yep. This was a really good episode. Yep. And we appreciate you guys listening in.
I'm just curious who listens all the way to the end. So if you listen all the way to the end,
either write into our Facebook group or boost in and let me know. And maybe I'll send you a
sticker or something. I don't know. But yeah, just let me know if you listened all the way to the end
and we'll see what happens.