Welcome to botches off road. Join us as we talk about everything from gear reviews to
trail stories, tent camping to rock landing and all things to do with the outdoors. Today
we have a very special guest. Michigan's premier overland. Michigan's premier overland influencer,
Mr. Bypass himself. Derek Vance. Yeah, close enough, man. It's a dodge. We'll take it.
So yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, uh, you know, I'm the overland influencer, hence the bypasses.
You know, if I was an off road influencer, we wouldn't have that bypass. I mean, at least
you own up to it. You know, I'm just, yeah, I'm scared of everything. That's right. It's
a eight inch axle on the GX blown up. I don't even know. Does the forerunner have an eight
inch? I don't even know what's under that thing. The fourth gen forerunner has the eight
inch, which is like the eighties mini truck axle. They've been using it forever. And then
the FJ cruiser from oh seven up to 2010 has the eight inch. Then they switched to the
eight. The nice part is because of that, they're, they're direct fit between the eight inch
and the 8.2. You can just swap them around. Oh, 8.2 a lot stronger. That's a lot stronger.
Yes. So the eight inch, it has some issues with, uh, if you bounce it, um, on a surface
that has traction. So like if you're in rocks out West, um, if you bounce the rear end a
little bit and it comes down while you're on the gas, it, uh, it gets some deflection
in there just enough so that, uh, everything moves around just enough to just tear up all
the gears. So it's, it's pretty common on the GX. There's a collage out there with like,
I don't know, 15 or 20 videos and GX is all just blowing their diffs on rocks. Jesus.
Well, yeah. So I guess on that front, we already know you drive a GX. If you want to tell us
a little bit about your GX and the mods you got going on there. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's
a pretty basic build. Um, you know, I've got Ironman, Foam style pro, uh, suspension on
it. Uh, I chose that cause Tinker design said it was good. And, uh, yeah, that's, that's
pretty good. You know, it's a 2.8 inch shock body. Um, you know, the coolest thing on it,
I think is the Perry parts bump stops. This is new duty printed ones that are like half
the price of zero bumps and say performance. Um, so I'm not, I'm not sponsored or affiliated
with Perry parts, but if, if you're looking for some cheap bump stops that just kick ass,
uh, Perry parts is the way to go. Um, the truck, go ahead. The guy that started Dura
bumps, he's doing a lot of cool stuff. He, uh, yeah. Going from, you know, we used to
only have really hydraulic bump stops and going from just hydraulic to what we've got
with Dura bumps or even the, was it Perry parts? Yeah. Perry parts is 3d printed. It's
really cool. They just 3d print like nitrogen bubbles into the, it's just crazy how far
bump stops have come. Yeah. And I think a lot of the, a lot of it, like Perry parts,
he's got access to all the at home testing stuff now. So like he can, he can prototype
and test in one day, which is really cool. That's super cool. The, um, and then the truck
came with all victory armor on it. So it's got, you know, refract front and rear bumpers
with swing out. Um, you know, it's super Gucci. Like it's the welds on it are beautiful. Um,
but you know, victory is pricey. I wouldn't get victory again just cause it's so dang
expensive. Did you have the victory skid plate or no? So that's actually okay. Expedition.
Um, and I went with them because it's aluminum and then the exchange rate out of Canada.
So they're out of Canada and the exchange rate was really favorable when I bought it.
So it ended up costing about as much as the ARB skids. Um, yeah, I think it was a 500
bucks. It's a full belly length skid. So it goes all the way, um, all the way back to
your like middle cross members. So it's, it's, it's a really nice setup. I like it a lot
more than the air be the air be such like, I know a bunch of people have just folded
those air bees up and it's a way cheaper than what my Savage was. Cause that was like a
$500 skin, five or six. Yeah. Yeah. And this is like a two piece too. So you get, you get
the, the, the front skid and then the med skid as well. So, oh, that's not a pretty
good value, but that's not your, oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, uh, I just, let's talk about
med stay tours. Well, that's where we were getting, I was going to say, do you want to
tell the story on how you started Michigan's only good overland group? Yeah. So I don't
know if we're the Michigan's only good overland group. I think there's a few floating around
there that are really small. That isn't that do some cool stuff. I'm like, I mean, I, and
then I'll catch a glimpse of someone I know. And it's like, you know, just a story they're
taking and I'm like, Hey, uh, you guys are doing something cool. Where's my invite? Um,
like a, they did that, uh, one group, they went out to a Boise blacks, the Island just
south of, um, of Mackinac Island. And that was really cool. Yeah, you can go there. I
think the ferry is expensive. Um, the wheeling isn't exciting, but it's like super scenic
and you're right there and Mackinac city Mackinac Island. So it's pretty cool. Um, but yeah,
so I started med stay tours. So how did, how did Joe and I, so it really started, um, you
know, originally I just had an Instagram and I didn't know anything about really off-roading
in Michigan. You know, I'd gone to the dunes and stuff in high school, but I didn't know
anything else about it. Never got on trails. So I just got an Instagram. And what I do
is I'd find a location that was interesting. And, uh, I'd shoot, I'd search the Instagram
location tags, right? And anyone who was at that tag would get a message from me like,
Hey, can you tell me about this? Can you tell me how to get here? What's, you know, what's
that? What it's like? And, uh, I eventually, I met up with a couple of guys who were pretty
cool on Dave G. He's still wheels with us. Sometimes he had neck surgery. So he's been
out this year, but he'll come out with us and, uh, David blank and a couple other guys.
Um, and we kind of did like 10 cup and like elegant and Yankee, just like very dipping
your toes in it. Um, and then I caught wind of, I don't know, I'm not going to say the
Jeep club, but it was a Jeep club doing a trail ride. And I just kind of saw people
talk about it. Like, Oh, that sounds like fun. So I went out to that and, uh, you know,
I was at the trail head that they were at. I don't remember what, what trail it was,
but I was like, you know, Hey, do you guys care if I just kind of take along? I'm kind
of new to this and thought it'd be good to go out with some other people. And they're
like, well, you can follow us, but we're not gonna, we're not going to stop for you if
you get stuck or anything. Like, well, okay, cool. And it was like a super easy trail.
It was like Yankee spring style. Like it was not hard at all. I'm like, you guys didn't
need to be a dick about that. You can just not send that.
I think that's the Jeep club I got pushed out of too. I would guess if it's in our area,
probably. Yeah. Yeah. They're, uh, I hear they've gotten better, but they really didn't
like me back in like 2016. There's, there's a lot of people who, when, when you talk to
them and say, Oh yeah, I did the Jeep club thing for a while. It just wasn't really my
thing. And then if you sit down and have a beer with them, you find out like, Oh yeah,
okay. I get it. Yeah. Um, so like that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. So I just
kind of started getting a group of people together at the time and we didn't have any
idea besides, Hey, I enjoyed this more with people. I thought it was more fun than going
solo. Right. Um, so I just, I just randomly messaged people who looked like they were
interesting and they didn't have jeeps. So that's why I started out. Cause it was like,
Oh, the Jeep people don't want me. So I'll just message anyone who does has literally
anything else. Um, so that's, that's kind of why we're a little Toyota heavy is, is
because when we started out, it was a lot of Toyota's, uh, just because, you know, it's
a little bitter about the Jeep guys. We've got a good amount of Jeeps now though. Yeah,
we do. Yeah. And that's, it's, you know, it's, it's taken a little work to try and keep every
all the tribes happy sometimes. Um, so I started just like organizing like, Hey, we're going
to go to Tim Cup. Hey, we're going to go to Roush off road or whatever. Eventually someone's
like, Hey, it's way easier to organize these things if you get on Facebook. So we got on
Facebook and I found Michigan Overland. I was like, Oh, let's do a trail ride. So I put
an event on Michigan Overland and at the time there's like 8,000 people in that group. I
think there's 10,000 plus now. And like when I'd organize on Instagram, like, man, I would
have to like message a ton of people to get people to come out. Right. Like I'd have to
sit there and, and so I was expecting maybe seven or eight, you know, show up. Uh, no
shit. We had, we had like 60 or 70 people show up and I pulled into the trail had a
10 cup and I'm looking around going, what the hell? I think we had 65 or 66 trucks with
an account. And that's, that's where I got the ticket too, from the DNR for parking on
the power lines. Uh, they're like, we could write you a $500 ticket for every vehicle
over 20 people here. I'm like, please don't. So they do it by people, not by vehicles.
Yeah. So you can have either 20 trucks and a, and a group with one person in each, or
you can have five trucks with, you know, five people in them. And then that's yeah. Four
people in them. Good at math. Um, yeah. So they, I mean, legally, yeah. I mean, most
of our events, like if the DNR showed up and wanted to be jerks about it, they could.
Right. Um, we try and kind of like, so like a German, when you see us split the camps
up and split the groups into different channel groups, that's kind of how we mitigate that.
Just so that it's, it's like, yeah, I don't know, we're not in a group with them. We're
just enjoying each other's company right now. We're just here at the same time as them.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, if 20 people, yeah, if 60 people just show up on their own and
you decide to drive around 10 cups, that's fine. But as an organized group, that's suddenly
a problem. So man, the DNR is freaking dumb. Yeah. I don't get me. We'll get, we'll keep,
we can get into that later. Yes. So yeah. So then like at the time, like Joe and I had
had hung out a lot and he came to a, you know, most of the events. So like Joe and I were
like, well, let's, we want to do some stuff in the UP and some overlanding. And, uh, we,
we were like, you know, organizing was such a huge group. Like we want a little more control over it
and we don't want to have people show up. Joe didn't want to email that. I was like, cool.
Yeah, that'll be fun. Um, like Joe's a good counterbalance to me because like where I'm
aggressive on stuff, Joe's conservative and where I'm conservative on stuff, Joe's aggressive.
So it's, it, you know, we, we kind of butt heads on things, but, uh, it's, it's definitely
a balance that, that works just because, you know, we, we, we kind of counteract our worst
tendencies with each other. We kind of, we have the same thing with me and Gavin. So yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So, so we talked about it, like, well, let's just kind of look into starting our own
kind of thing. And originally we kind of said, well, what if we did guided tours? Because
obviously everyone wants to be guided by a bunch of idiots who don't know what they're doing.
So, so we looked into that and like, I talked to a couple of people and the, the amount of work,
like to, uh, I talked to the guys from Michigan gambler and they said, don't do it. They said,
first of all, it's, it's crazy expensive. And then they said, as soon as you like file a
role plan with the DNR and they approve it, they said, guess who shows up at your camp every night
and then tickets you for anything they find. So Michigan gambler had incurred a ton of fines
because the DNR did that. They came to their camp and just picker them for, you know, Oh,
fire too close to the trail or not, you know, a vehicle park, 15 feet off the trail instead of
10, whatever. So, um, so they, they were like, don't do that. Um, so we're like, well,
forget it. Let's just make it free. Like, we're not that good anyway. We don't know what we're
doing. So, so we just kind of built it off that. We started out with just kind of people who,
um, we had met at some of these off road events that we'd hosted that like Roush and stuff.
And, uh, you know, I'd, I'd see someone in Michigan Overland be like, oh yeah, I kind of
want to do something. I've never done this before. And I just shoot them a message and be like, hey,
you know, if you want to go out with a smaller group, whatever, um, you know, let me know. I've
got this, you know, kind of smaller, less public group that, uh, and we do all this, we do it for
free. And you know, you'll have some people who kind of know what they're doing at least so you're
not by yourself. So that's kind of how it started. And then we ended up finding really cool campsites
like right off the bat. Like I spent hours just scouring the UP shoreline with, you know, satellite
view on one side and the public land overlay on the other side of the screens. I'm just going like
inch by inch and be like, okay, this looks cool. And like, we ended up finding like three or four
really cool campsites from UP right off the bat, like our first few trips. And I think that's
really kind of spread word of mouth, like, Hey, these guys build really cool places
and they'll be in there. So I think that's how it grew. And then, you know, from there, it's just like,
um, I think we have a good mix of like, Hey, a little bit of chaos. Like we embrace it a little
bit. Like you go to some events and it's so over organized and so sanitized and you're like, this
just feels like a, you know, what a McKensley and company organize this thing. It feels so not fake,
but like, you know, so managed that you can't really do things that you want to naturally
bring forward. Oh, let's go off on this trails, that trails. So I think people enjoy kind of the
aspect where you can kind of make your own adventure, but you still have, you know, people
around who you enjoy being around. Um, so I think that's kind of part of what's fun, you know, like
we don't have really any big guidelines besides don't be a dick and clean up after yourself.
You know, it's, it's, it's not like, Oh, you have to have your, um, you know, uh, fire extinguisher
under your seat. And you know, some of these rides, that's like the Western requirements is like,
good Lord, man, like you got to dump a thousand bucks into your truck just to go out and wheel
with them. So I think I know some local Jeep clubs like that. Yeah. It's like, Oh, you gotta
have 35. Oh, you gotta have, uh, at least one locker. And it's like, dude, we'll figure it out.
It's Michigan. Like why are you making all these requirements for Michigan? Even drumming, we got
people who go through without lockers. I never turned my locker on the entire time we were drumming.
Well, so I don't have lockers on mine anyways. Yeah. I mean, I'm on open diffs and you know,
at the end of the day, like, yeah, I'm drumming. You guys go through some harder stuff than I will,
but we still got to enjoy the Island and we still want to sit around the campfire, have a beer. So,
and I'd say, I mean, we took Mark's truck up Musenemesis and I'd say that's probably the
hardest thing there. So yeah, I think, yeah, I think technically like Musenemesis, especially on
the line on the, I want to say it's the North side is, uh, you know, that's, that's really difficult.
You know, you watch people like Andy Hannah, who's got, you know, tons and forties on his Tacoma.
And it's like, yeah, you know, he doesn't always make it up the first time either.
Right. Yeah. And then, I mean, and we won't get too far into Marvel head. We've kind of been avoiding
that topic, but even, even post destruction, or pre destruction, marble head. I mean, that was,
it's a decent challenge, but it's not necessarily a hard obstacle.
No, no, not. It's still a hard obstacle.
But it's, it's, uh, you know, it's for Michigan. I see if only ever wheeled in Michigan, right?
Like this is your first opportunity to learn technical wheeling, right? Like you're going to
learn how your truck reacts to being off camber to the different traction situations that you cover.
So I think that's what made marble head so iconic was you could start out really easily.
And then if you spend a few hours there, you could go from a very easy line, not knowing how to do
anything to a really something seriously challenging and learning how to do that. So that was
the draw to marble head was like, man, I can start out easy and then work my way up into,
you know, having some real confidence to know what I'm doing and, uh, them destroying that easy line
on the, on the side. It's like, boy, now it's all or nothing, right? Like either you're on 35s at
least and a lacquer or you're not getting up that. Yeah, just, and we don't have anything else like
that in the state. I mean, even Hill climb wise, we've got news nemesis, marble head. I'd say
skitter, but skitter is difficult for a different reason. Yeah. It's good. Or you can get stuck
going down just cause you know, you got a stream flowing down the side. There is some, there is
harder stuff than, um, German in Michigan. Um, you have to know some very specific and very private
Ubers. Um, I'm not going to say the name, but I think you guys have seen me talking about it before.
Um, but yeah, I mean, when you look at that, that's like buggy trails that you see in like the
Appalachians because it's right, you know, they're, they're rolling trucks, just trying to get through
the trail. And it's like not a one-off it's, it's happening. And you see like the body damage they
do. And, uh, but that's on private property. And it's like, if you don't know someone there,
you're not going to get in. Um, I've heard rumors that there's, there's two other places in Michigan.
Um, one of them near the mouth of the Huron where it's private property, but it's like
pretty well used by locals for that. Like I've seen pictures of guys going up a certain, um,
mountain, you know, there's no mountain mountains, but it's a mountain near there. Um, and it's like,
yeah, you gotta be on forties and locks to get up that. So there's some places, but you either got
to, you really got to know somebody to get to those places. Right. Public wise, Dromond was
really all we had. Yeah. I can't, I mean, there's a little bit in the Q and all, there's some very
stuff in the Q and all, but yeah, besides that, yeah. Drummond was probably the highest in Michigan.
Yeah. I mean, we've got a handful of other hill climbs. They've all got their own challenge,
but none of them are that, that straight rock hill climb that you had in Drummond.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm going to miss, especially those steps coming out from a Glen Cove.
Oh my God. That was, that was just fun because it wasn't that hard, but it's like the first,
like for the guys who, Hey, we've never gone before and coming with men's state tours on a trip.
Like that's their first real obstacle, right? You get there the first night we set up camp and we
say, Hey, we're going to go out to, uh, to, uh, marble head and, and, you know, what's the name?
And, and, you know, watch the sunset at marble head. And like the first real obstacle that you
encounter is these stairs. And it's really fun. Cause you get to see all these guys who have never
done anything like that. Get to experience that for the first time. And it's like, dude, that's
like the most excited. You'll see someone that weekend is some guy where he gets up to the top
of that the first time. And he's like, you know, his knuckles are white on the wheel and he's,
you know, he's got adrenaline pumping and you're like, dude, this guy's like, he's hooked like,
right. He's having a awesome weekend. Yeah. Um, so that's like, that's the bummer about that.
Cause it's like, that was an obstacle that was really like the first thing you think about when
you go on an MST trip to German is like those stairs. That's the first hard thing you encounter.
And it's like, now it's gone. And that was kind of an exciting taste of the Island kind of.
So I was really looking forward to seeing a GMC terrain go up them steps.
Yeah. Yeah. Zach is, um, they, they made it very Zachable. Yeah. I don't know if that's a word yet,
but I think that's going to be, but I was, you know, I was really excited once he got this lift
that he put on it now to watch him be able to do stuff like that with the car that shouldn't be
able to do it. And yeah, that's always fun. Right. He's got no chance now. Cause they just took it
out. Yeah. Well, um, did you guys see the chat chill 233 at Leatherwood? Yes. I really
remember that dude that like I told Zach like, Hey man, a Jeep Turkey, a Trailhawk got back here.
Like, yeah, similar, right? Like he said, he didn't use his rear locker. So like, Hey man,
like you've got, you've got an opportunity. Isn't the terrain all wheel drive though? Not true.
Four wheel drive. Yeah. It's all wheel. Uh, yeah. And I wouldn't trust that transmission.
Where are you going to be like some of those ledges like, Oh man, I want to push you, but maybe not
eight hours from home. We've got a Trailhawk in our group and we've seen him do some stuff, but
I've seen him do stuff. I don't think that that train could do. Yeah. No, those, those Trailhawks,
dude, I've watched some videos on YouTube and it's like, they definitely are deserving of
the Cherokee name. Like you don't get to sell in axles, but dude, they've, they've, I've seen
owners who don't care if they damage them, do some wild stuff. Like stuff that I wouldn't do with the
GX, which isn't really saying a whole lot, but you know, I've watched you bypass stuff that was like
two wheel driveable. Yeah. I didn't want to get my tires muddy.
Well, that's yeah. For me, like, you know, so there's, here's been the biggest difference
between like Joe and I, so, you know, Joe's either Joe really enjoys the wheeling, like the harder it
is, the more challenging he really enjoys that. I like that. I think for me, it's more about the
community. You know, I, I get a lot more kick of hanging out around camp. I like that. I like that.
You know, I get a lot more kick of hanging out around camp or, you know, just the trail ride,
you know, the radio banter and stuff like that with, with some mild obstacles. I, I enjoy that
a lot. You know, I'll do the obstacles just because everyone bullies me now. But, you know, I, I enjoy
the community aspect of MST a lot more than, than I, I mean, I enjoy wheeling. I really do, but,
uh, you know, it's, it's not like I'm going to have a good trip, even if the trails are like,
you know, super difficult. Yeah. I've, uh, since coming home, I've really lowered my expectations
now, as long as there's dirt, it's all right. Yeah. Well, it's like when we did the South shore
exploratory trip, right? Like there wasn't anything that you would have had to go into a four wheel
drive for besides the thunderbolt, but, uh, like the whole trip was awesome, man. Like we got to
camp right on Lake Michigan, awesome spots. Um, you know, we got to see some really kind of cool
scenic stuff that's really overlooked in the UP because everyone either hits the, you know,
they either go drumming, they go the North coast or they go up to the Keywood. So there's, there's
big sections of that people just don't really go to unless they're passing by. So we got to see
some really cool stuff. And, uh, you know, I had, I had a riot, like, yeah. I mean, if I had a,
I could have probably done most of it in a Buick and it was still a really, really good time.
I, uh, I've definitely been through most of the Manistee national forest in a Buick. So I understand.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, it's, um, there's always kind of that trade off, right? Between,
Hey, I want to, I want to go out there and just enjoy nature versus, Hey, I want to go find fun
stuff. And it's like, I always kind of wondered, you know, why do people enjoy Yankee Springs so
much? Cause it's, you know, it's just some gravel roads to the woods. They, they filled in like the
only one real hard obstacle there. And it's just like, yeah, people just really enjoy getting out
and driving around down some gravel roads. And I think, you know, I get that now a little more
than I used to. Especially people in that area, because, you know, down in that part of Michigan,
you don't have a whole lot of that. Just get out and explore going on. Yeah. There's, there's really
south of really south of like, well, south of you guys, south of New York, there isn't really
anything like Friday, we're going Christmas tree hunting by Muskegon. Cause there's just like some
little swivers of Massey National Forest along the right, along the white river. So we're going to
go do that on Friday, but like, yeah, it's like, you got a really thin line of national forest until
you hit New Eagle. Then it, then you really have options to go explore. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm very
thankful to have grown up somewhere where wheeling was all we really did. And we just had lots of it
to do. But now that I've seen like what you guys struggle with, with just having nothing around you,
I feel way better about that. Yeah. And I think that's part of why, you know, going back to the
community aspect is, you know, if you want to have fun off-roading in Michigan and you're going to go
solo, like, let's just be real. Like after a year or two, you're going to be like, man, there's
nothing really exciting in Michigan. And you get kind of to the point where you're like, is I don't
know if maybe this isn't hobby, you know, a hobby that I don't want to do, but when you have a group
like MST, you know, it's like, man, just driving, you know, if you've ever been in a convoy with like
Yamber and I and Karen, then they're sniping from the back. It's like, man, this isn't who, like,
this is just as much fun just driving up there as anything else. It's really, it's about that,
you know, it's a community that's, that's enjoyable to be around. I, I like when we're out just
naturally driving, going somewhere and someone like, for example, one time Joe ran into us in
New Agro and he just pulled up and hopped on channel 18 and knew who we were right away.
Right. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh no, I was just going to say it's interesting now because 16
used to be the channel and now I think almost everyone at MST is like naturally just uses 18
now. Yep. Yeah. 16 for a long time. 16 was considered the like off road channel on GMRS
because four by four, right? Yeah. And then 18 and 19 were supposed to be highway channels.
And then one of them is supposed to be emergency, but I don't remember which one that was.
I always kind of get a kick out of that when someone's like, Hey, I'm, I'm going to go do
some solo camping. What, what radio should I get? And they're talking about GMRS. I'm like, dude,
don't even, if you're solo, like get ham or you get a satellite communicator, like we're up in the
UP. I'll just click mine to scan. And there's no one else out there. Yeah. You can call out on all
the channels. No one's listening. Um, it's, it's whatever group you with, you know, maybe you'll
get lucky and there'll be another Jeep group up there. Um, but yeah, if you're, if you're going
solo, GMRS is not the answer. It's either ham or a satellite communicator. Yeah. Out West, uh,
there's a lot of GMRS communications out West, but they can go for 50, 60 miles because there's
nothing in the way. Yeah. When you, when you're, that's some elevation that you're on top of and,
and you got no force to deal with. Yeah. You can do that. I used to go camping on a mountain, uh,
up above the city. I lived in, in Arizona and I just turned the radio on and just listened to
everyone down below me talking. Yeah. That's, that's fun. Cause and then you try and pick them
out. Like, Oh, you hear a couple of guys talking and you know, they're just grabbing an obstacle
and you're like, okay, what I bet it's those two guys there. Cause then it kind of looks like what
they're talking about. Yep. Yeah. That's a lot of fun. We used to do that when, um, like my grandpa
lives in Colorado and we kind of used to do the same thing. I think he has on CB then, but yeah,
you sit there and you'd listen to people going by and it was like, Oh yeah. Who, who, who do I think
that one is? Yeah. CB used to be big around here. When I was in high school, all of us had CBs
and our trucks and now I don't hear anything on CB. Yeah. No, I think, I think a lot of it is
yeah, the cell phones kind of killed CB, right? Like it went from a lot of people that was popular.
Like my, my wife tells me like her, uh, her grandfather, he would drive, I think he went to
somewhere around Lansing. He worked at, and then he had a CB in his car and there's a base station
at his house. And when he got, you know, five, 10 miles, he'd call in on the CB because they didn't
have cell phones back then. Right. Right. And he'd say, Oh, you know, Hey, I'm coming home.
And it was like, you know, at least give his wife some time to get, you know, whatever the
house or the kids or whatever cleaned up. Right. But like, yeah, the cell phone killed CB. And then,
you know, GMRS is really just the hottest thing now. It's, you know, survivalists who want to be
able to communicate and, uh, off roaders. I don't really know who else uses it.
Um, I know there's, there's a really big community. Uh, I used to spend a lot of time with them,
but they do what's called nets and we'd get on every Friday night and we'd do like trivia and
stuff over the GMRS radios. But now that the FCC made it so you can't have internet connected
GMRS networks, that kind of killed our nets. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, did they do that because
it was clogging up channels where people were complaining. They did it because they hate us.
That's yeah. Hey, these guys, these guys are doing something that's really effective and,
and fun and we can't really regulate it. So we're going to just shut it down.
Yeah. Yeah. I actually was working on a GMRS network that was going to tie together as many
points as I could get here in Michigan. So we'd have one big internet connected network and channel
18. If you could be in say Lansing and talk to someone in Detroit, but yeah, the, uh, I never
really, I haven't, I'll have to sit down with you guys. Cause like, you know, as I, as you can see,
when I was trying to connect to this, I'm like a technological boomer. Like I'm just, uh, it's,
it's probably pathetic for being a millennial, but like, like I hear it, like when we're cruising,
I'll hear, you know, repeaters as like, yeah, I don't have any idea how to connect to these
dumb things. Like what button do I push to get on that stupid repeater? Yeah. I, which, uh, do you
have a type C on your radio or is it a USB? Uh, I've got a USB C on it. Like I can charge my phone
off of it or whatever. Yep. So we should be able to get yours on repeaters. I have the old USB A
and it doesn't do repeaters at all. Oh, I can hear them, but I can't talk to them. I was about to
say, I think my new walkie can have it where it seeks out repeaters and don't seek out repeaters.
Yeah. Yeah. Cause then you got to program it with like your FCC registration number or whatever to
ping into a repeater the first time or something. I thought some repeaters require that. Some don't.
Yeah. I don't know if I want to just talk to it. It's just on who sets it up, right? Yep. Yep. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. The other networks pretty cool. I always wondered about that. Like, can you set up
like a mobile repeater? So like if you brought a trailer with like a, you know, with a 20 foot whip
on it and a big old battery pack, could you set up a repeater on German Island for the whole group to
use? We are working on one. Oh boy. We've been in the talks about it, especially with our mesh network
system that we're going to work on as well. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, tell me more about that. Cause
that will show you, not only, so that, that sends out your GPS location on a map when you radioed,
right? How does that work? So the mesh-tastic, you have your set to what? Every 10 seconds, Mark?
Yes. So every 10 seconds, they send out our location across a radio frequency and it can go,
it can go anywhere from one mile to like 50 miles, depending on how clear it is.
And they're just itty bitty little radios that send out like two Watts of power and they send GPS
rate signal. You can send out like little bits of data. Like let's say we're on ATAC and there's a
trail that's got something blocking it. We can put a marker on ATAC and it'll send that over the radio.
It'll do, we can text message over it. So does this, does it run off like a cell phone or how's
that? How do you, so there's a few different ways I have one second. I have this one. This one's a,
just a handheld. It doesn't have any need for a phone, but then you can also get them where you
have to use the app on your phone. Yeah. Like that one Mark's got right there. Okay. So I mean,
there's lots of ways to use Mesh-tastic. Cause that one of the things I've always wondered,
you know, with MST, like we haven't really gotten split up and lost as a group since we, like 2022,
but like, I always kind of wondered like, man, it would be really cool if I could just plop
something in somebody's car, you know, every three or four cars, you can see where everyone is.
That's exactly what Mesh-tastic is supposed to do. And it's mesh. So let's say you're the first car
and you can only talk to the third car. Well, that third car is going to repeat and send whatever
you sent to the eighth car. And then you'll get the signal back across the same network.
Oh, that's pretty cool. I like that. So, yeah, cause sometimes, sometimes when we're talking
about convoy and it's strung out, like at the beginning of a trip, right? Like I'll say, hey,
if you're halfway through the convoy, make sure to repeat back what I said. So the people behind us
can hear. And by the end of it, it's like, oh man, I was sitting here. Oh, we've been here for five
minutes. Did we lose them? Nope. They just slowly putzing along. No one's going to be laying the
messages. Yeah, that's a, we've been kind of playing with Mesh-tastic. Once we get it really
well solidified, we're probably going to grab some nodes and, and then we'll be able to get
nodes and get some other people to experiment with it. Yeah. That'll be, that'll be really cool.
I'd love to see how you figure out how to do that cheaply for large groups. Well, so the
cheapest node you can get, which is the one in my truck, I think it's like 18 bucks. Oh yeah. So
they're really cheap. So you can set that up. Like if I bought eight of them, let's say you
can set that up so I could just set them in my buddy's trucks. And then as we're on a trail ride,
they just talk to each other and I can see where my buddies are the whole time.
In theory, that's what it's supposed to do. Yeah. There was someone that was working on it, I think
about two to three years ago, and then they dropped the project that we were working on. So we have
no idea how that went for them. Yeah. There was a YouTube channel called Beyond the Raptor,
and he was working on a off-road specific app that used mesh-tastic to send location data.
Well, you just got to stalk them. And then like I did with, with half the people in MSD.
I've commented on the video and been like, Hey man, whatever happened with this channel or with
this plan and then never heard back. Right. Yeah. Like I mean, that's how I grew up. Right? Like I
just, if you ask like the first 300 members, it's like, yeah, some weirdo just made a video
message me on Instagram and said, Hey, do you want to go out in the woods with me? I've got hot dogs.
I forgot the whole hot dog thing. Yeah. So you guys weren't around for the hot dog thing.
I first, when I first started, I worked at Kent quality foods, which is a grand Rapids
manufacturer of specialty hot dogs and sausages. So like every, every off, I was, I was the dog guy.
Every off-road event that we had, I'd bring my grill along. This is when I actually grilled my
own food instead of having other people do it. And yeah, I'd bring like a 10 pound box of like,
like Polish sausage and be like, Hey, we're going to grill this up, man. Everyone gets free hot dogs.
And like most of the time, because they had the cheapest grill possible, it's like, yeah,
you get some lukewarm hot dogs, baby. How do you, how do you like that?
But yeah, I mean, that's, that's the hot dog joke is like, yeah, we,
MST was built on free hot dogs and stalking.
Yeah. It's a, you were that internet stalker that all of our, uh, influence their friends
warn us about. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Like if you talk to like, if you talk to Cindy or Jeremy and you're
like, yeah, how did, how did you ever end up talking to Derek? It'll be like, oh yeah. He
messaged me about campsites. Stupid like that. Right. Like, Hey, dude, can you tell me where
your honey hole is? Like, I really want to know where your favorite spot in Michigan is. You know,
I was just, you do that enough time and then she gets, someone is dumb enough to fall for it.
I'm sure Cindy told you she's a sweetheart. Yeah. No, Cindy, Cindy was like super helpful. So like,
before we published the, yeah, which is the Uber adventure trail. It's our route across the North
shore of the UP. Um, like I reached out to Cindy, I talked to Jeremy, I talked to a few, um,
newpers that I knew. Um, I reached out to a bunch of people who I wouldn't call them like
influencers, but like very influential in the mission. And I was like, I'm not sure
Michigan overlay community. And I said, Hey, here's what I'm doing. Um, you know, and I just
kind of wanted to get your sign off, not because I think like I need your permission, but I just
want to make sure that I'm not, you know, giving away some spot that is really special, you know,
to you. Cause as soon as I had published on that, like those GPX coordinates are out of my control.
Everyone has, you can download it and share it as much as you want. So, you know, like when I,
when I did the, did the, yeah, you know, I, I, I pushed Cindy really hard to be like, Hey, you know,
do I need to make any changes? Am I too close to this? Am I too close to that? Is it going to be
pushing way too many people into these areas that, you know, can't really support it? You know,
cause the last thing anyone wants is another mouth to hear on situation where you show up and there's
you know, 15 camper vans, and then, you know, a bunch of drunks on side by sides. So, you know,
we, we worked hard when we did that to make sure that, you know, Hey, everyone was pretty cool with
it. So that's why there's state force campgrounds instead of dispersed spots on the YAT. Yeah. I
really appreciate you not doing a lot of dispersed bots on the YAT because those can get pretty
can get pretty destroyed pretty fast if we start publicly showing them off. Yeah. And it's like
our spot that we go to labor day at like, that's easy to get to. It's easy to find if you put the
work in, but I talked to cabin owners when we go up there and I'm actually a buddy. There's a guy
who's got a cabin right by the cemetery. And then there's the last cabin on wildcat. And I talk to
him every time we go up there and it's like, dude, we never see other trucks coming down here. We'll
see like a Jeep, but very occasionally, and we'll see some side by side. He's like, mostly it's just
locals who know about this spot. And, uh, they're like, when you, the first time you guys rolled
through here, like we had a bunch of cabin owners following us. Cause they were like, no way are
they going to get a truck down here? Like, you know, we got like a full size F one 50 and
then they're like, no way they're going to get that down there. And yeah, sure enough we did.
But, um, you know, it's one of those spots where like, dude, as soon as a bunch of people find out
about it, that's, that spot's going to just be destroyed and closed off. That's like, uh,
our spot up in the up Mark, the one right off that main trail there that is kind of hidden.
Yeah. With the dam once that anyone finds out about that, it's going to be taken over. It's
such a beautiful spot. It is. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's like, especially on Michigan, like,
dude, if you spend two hours putting in the work, you'll find all the cool spots. Yeah.
Even that spot we had in Cadillac, that was a really neat spot for where it was. Oh yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and some of the spots are kind of well known, but they're,
they seem to be pleased really well. Like our shake down spot, like there wasn't any trash and
like, no, I don't know if that's cause the Michigan jeeps group used it a month before us and they
clean up. They, they do it. Tom Salmetto does a really good job with his events. They, they're,
they're great. Like of the Jeep groups in Michigan, Michigan jeeps is wonderful. I love them.
Um, so they, you know, that may be why that site was so clean, but it's, I mean, it's two will drive
accessible. You can haul in an RV if you wanted. I'm like, dude, that place, like I didn't find any
trash at all. So that's, you know, that is encouraging. That seems to be becoming the norm
for most spots in Michigan. Like there's a few spots here in New ego County and in Lake County
that still have trash, but for the most part, Michiganders do a pretty good job keeping,
taking care of ourselves. Yeah. And you can definitely tell, like when you roll up on a spot
and there's trash and you look at it, you can definitely tell this isn't somebody who's out
off-roading who made this mess. That's like, Oh, I've got a toilet in the woods. That's like,
that's some local, that's some local Yoko who didn't want to pay the $5. You know, throwing away
at the dump. They just drove out in the woods. And I think that's the most frustrating part for me when
you know, we hear people say pack it in, pack it out. They're going to close the trails cause
there's trash. It's like, dude, that's not the overlaying community or the off-road community
who's trash and stuff. That's, that's locals dumping because they don't want to deal with it.
My thing with that is out West, you know, in like Moab and stuff, they shut down trails. Cause they
said there was no proof of use. Well, there was no proof of use because we were taking care of shit.
Yeah. And as I do want to plug blue ribbon coalition. So out West for sure,
blue, blue ribbon coalition, you know, what I love about blue ribbon coalition is they're not just
sitting here passively accepting these things happening. They're not, you know, I'm kind of
over the, you know, Oh daddy government, can I please do this? Can I please do that? Like blue
ribbon coalition is out there filing lawsuits and you know, organizing lawmakers and pushing them hard
to open this crap back up. Like, Hey man, this is our land. Like you don't get to just shut it down.
Yep. Like, and it's like, it's like, no, we're not going to, you know, they've highly encouraged
trail cleanups, but it's not like, Oh, like if you don't do trail cleanups, this isn't,
this is going to get shut down. It's like, no, go police it. So locals stop throwing trash out there.
Like, why is this? I don't know why the off road community has to bear the burden of a
problem that's not caused by us. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, it'd be like,
it's like, right. Yeah. But I mean, besides some beer cans, they're not, they're not, you know,
we can pick up beer cans. That's fine. I don't feel bad about that. But it's like, when we're
dragging bed frames and stuff like that, I would just like, that's not a problem that the side by
side or the off road community is causing this locals. Exactly. Like, and we get all these,
you know, it's everything's like, Oh, if we don't do these cleanups, they're going to shut down the
trails. It's like, when are we going to start up, stop accepting that? Like I'll do a cleanup. If
you open trails up, like I will happily, I'll get, I'll get all of them as T out there. If they say,
Hey, we're going to open, we're going to open up 10 miles of trails. If you guys clean up 10 miles
of trails, we'll cut 10 miles of new trails. Like, dude, I'll make that deal all day. But if you're
going to sit here and threaten me and say, Oh, if we don't clean up and don't get me wrong, we should
still clean up. That's the right thing to do. But I don't like this concept that if we don't go clean
up somebody's trash, who's not part of our community, they're going to shut down the trails that are
primarily benefiting our community. Like that's, that's not a deal I'm going to make.
I wish we had someone in MST or even Michigan Overland who had the knowledge and the money to
start fighting the way that blue ribbon does. Yeah. And I think blue ribbon actually, you know, they,
um, they're expanding, right? And I think it's, it's a funding and a legislative, you know,
knowledge because they do it state by state at the state level. Um, so it, you know, if you wanted
them in Michigan, you'd have to say, you know, you'd have to organize the funding for you'd have to
find some sort of legal expert, which there's a couple, um, you know, there's, there's a podcast,
um, of a lawyer who handles a lot of DNR and off road issues, um, here in Michigan.
I will have fun with that. Yeah. I'll send it over to you after this, but, um, yeah, there's the,
you know, there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be in place for blue ribbon coalition
to come in and start, you know, for sure. No one knows which I'd love for them to do, but I just
don't know, you know, the, the funding just isn't there in Michigan. Right. Yeah. I agree.
I mean, it'd be nice if everyone in like, say not so much MST. I mean, if we all pitched in $5,
it's still what 400 grand or something like that or four or whatever. But if we could get like
Michigan Overland or one of those groups involved and we all pitched in $5, it, that could maybe
make a difference. Yeah. I mean, like you look at tread lightly and tread lightly is a good
organization that does good things. They, they do a great job with trail cleanups, but you know,
all I hear is, oh, we're trying to preserve access and good. I want to preserve access, but like,
um, why do I have to fight to preserve access? Like, I want to fight to open more up and I don't
want to fight. It's just doesn't seem right as you know, like it's our land, it's public land.
Like, why do I have to fight to preserve access to land that's owned by the public?
And not to throw shade at tread lightly, but why do we have to shut down areas to preserve others?
Why can't we just keep them all open? Yeah. I mean, you know, there's, there's some arguments
to remain that like, Hey, this needs to be shut down. Just like, if you look at skitter hill is a
great example, right? Like if tread lightly was to come in and say, Hey, we're going to shut down
the hill and grade it and put a drain tile in it. Like, is that the right thing to do so that people
stop driving through the woods? Or people just turn around because there's an obstacle there.
Yeah. Well, like, I mean, if you've been to skitter recently, like it went from one small path to the
woods to now there's, and hopefully no DNR officers watch this because then they'll go out there and
shut it down. But, uh, or drive a cat, you know, be sick for down the dumb thing for any DNR, uh,
listeners skitter hill is in Detroit, Michigan. It's downtown. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But, uh, you know, there's an argument to be made that, you know, if something's not done there,
we're going to end up with a quarter mile into the woods of trails that were never there. And
you know, okay. Is a bypass necessary? Well, kind of yes. Cause we want to preserve skitter hill
because it's an enjoyable obstacle that a lot of people chill with themselves on, but you also need
to get to the top from the bottom. If you're with a group and it's like one bypass is plenty.
Yeah. But now there's like 50. Yeah. You don't need that rabbit word of, of trails there. So
there's, there's a healthy medium, right? And it's, it's, it's managing trails so that it's enjoyable
for people. And there's some challenges, you know, the DNR doesn't have any sort of concept of managing
trails for user types. It's just right bulldozer. And, uh, I don't think, you know, there's,
there's nobody talking to DNR saying, Hey, wait a minute. What, how about we do this in an
intelligent way where like 10 cup, how many times have they bulldozed the mud hole on 10 cup when
you cross the power lines? It's, uh, like the Southern crossing. Yeah. It's always that they,
they bulldoze that maybe once a year. And then by the end of the year, like, it's just, you got,
you got a four foot mud pit on either side and you can barely get through. And it's like, at what
point do you look at that and go, Hey, just leave this. Cause the off roaders actually enjoy it.
And dude, the spot where the side-by-sides bypass through the woods, that's dry. That's not out of
spring. Like they're going to go through there anyway. And then you're going to be able to,
go through there anyway, make that the go around. Yep. And then you don't have 15 go around. You've
got one official one that's on dry, non spring fed land. And then you solve all the problems that
you got. Yeah. And you don't lose an actually fun obstacle. Exactly. Now you might have some, you
know, Hunter who comes through there and is Chevy 1500 and then complains cause he drove into a mud
pit, but that can be fixed with tread lightly signage that can be fixed with a people being
well, I don't know if it's dumb as much as, you know, you can get mixed use back there
and you get some, you get some hunters, some family out mushroom picking or sightseeing
and they just see a little mud and they go, Oh, well the rest of the trails got some little
puddles on it. You know, this should be fine. And, uh, you know, then they ended up, you know,
door seal deep in a puddle. So, you know, if you want to keep some of those things, there's a two
fold approach, right? Some signage so that people know, so you don't end up, you know, some poor
smoke getting stuck and then finding something that's going to be a permanent solution. Cause
yeah, bulldozing that those holes every year, there's a spring underneath that it's just going
to come back. Yeah. We use here in our area, we've seen a lot of the DNR ruining trails. We used to
have one, uh, right in Bridgeton that it wasn't anything difficult, but it had the best mud bog
in Michigan by far. Um, and that was off, you know, it was right next to the trail. So you
could either do the trail as the bypass or have fun. And they filled it all with like,
probably half or yeah, it's, and it's big gravel. I mean, it's unpleasant to drive over now. Um,
then they shut down almost all of our power line access in New Igo County, which we used to have
open power line access. What was that always open or was it just unregulated? Because a lot of the
power lines are on right away. Where it just looks like, you know, so most of New Igo County for a
long time, the power lines were actually marked DNR trails. Okay. But now they've gone through
and they've gotten rid of almost all of that. Yeah. And it seems to be a push. I don't know
if that's just because the power companies are saying, Hey, they're tearing up our access. We
got to be able to get, we got to be able to get, I don't know what the little semis they got, you
know, those deuce and half cell trucks that they've got, I've got to get back there. But I can
understand that the power company is saying like, Hey, we, we're going to go service these lines and
we can't get our trucks back there. So I get, I get it. Right. Like there's a giant boulders across
all the trails. So nobody can get through. I think that one was a private property though. Now Alex,
have a no, that one's not private property. That one, I mean, it's, it's New Igo County property
that is leased by consumers. Yeah. So the problem with a lot of those two, right, is, is the,
the consumers has a right away and maybe not that situation, but there's a bunch of, a bunch of spots
all across Michigan where people get in trouble because they're just driving on the right away,
but it's actually private property. It's like, right. You want to drive through a farmer's field
because there's power lines overhead, but you're driving through someone's back 40. So I, yeah,
that's, that's, that's why I'd X and Guy are so great with the public land overview, right?
For sure. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's a lot easier to know where you're going now than it was
even five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And actually it's like, I've got, and yeah, I mean, due to my,
my nature of just feeling very comfortable messaging anyone in the world, you know,
I've gotten access to some cool places just because I've pulled up, you know, the public lands. I'm
like, okay, this guy's name is Bob Johnson, right? And then I'll go through and find Bob Johnson out
of the 5 million Bob Johnson's on Facebook and like, Hey, got a question about your property
up in the UP. And about three days later, like, how did you find me? Well, I'm kind of weird. Yeah.
Unfortunately for you, yeah. Unfortunately for you, your property has some feature that I'm
interested in. So, um, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's really nice too, because like that closure
that was on the, yeah, where that guy had so many issues with side-by-side that he finally got fed
up and put a gate. Yup. Like I was about to be really, really pissed off and put that guy on blast
until I was able to kind of track him down and find out what the real story was. And then
that's an interesting one because it's marked as a county road when it absolutely isn't. And he's
actually suing Google right now to get it off Google maps, because it shows it as a county road.
He's like, you know, he's confirmed with the, uh, the, the county road commission, the township,
you know, zoning or whatever. And he's gone through like two or three lawyers to have it all reviewed.
He's like, yeah, it's, it's private buddy, but like Google's marked it public. So people are just
blasting down it and I'm sick of it. I guess his dog got hit and killed and that was the last straw.
Yeah. You said people have drug guns on him because he's like, you know, he's going out
there to yell at them for drinking on the side of the property or whatever. It's like, yeah,
this is a private road that we've had open. Well, like without, without the private, you know,
the on X or the guy, uh, like, dude, how in the world are you going to find out who owns that
property besides going into a township and, and figure that out? Yeah.
No onyx has, and I used to use onyx hunt for that, but now that we've got the onyx off road,
it is so much easier because I can actually keep track of my trails and see who owns what.
Yeah. Yeah. I love the property view and it's, it's, it's really interesting too, to see kind of like,
um, who owns what. And then I really liked too, because a lot of the timber companies have, um,
camping permissions. So as long as you're not lighting a fire, like on lime forestry land,
you can disperse camp on their land. And, um, that's really cool because they've got some
cool land with some cool spots. And a lot of people won't get in and go, Oh, private property.
I can't go there. But if, if you know, like I reached out to lime forestry company,
cause I was looking up how to get into, uh, paradise point by Christmas and lime owned all
that land except for the 10 foot of action strip. So, you know, I, I kind of developed this
relationship with the manager up there and he's like, Oh yeah. Like you can camp on any of our
land as long as you don't have a fire. Or I think you're allowed to have like a propane pit or
something like that. A lot of them allow for a non-ground fire. So if you have like one of those
little pop-up fire pits, you can get away with those too. Yeah. And it's just about being
respectful of them, right? Like, you know, Hey, they're, they're very willing to work with you.
And, uh, you know, as long as you don't abuse it, like, man, that's nice. That's a really nice.
Cause they've got like, they've got a massive amount of acres. It's well into the hundreds
of thousands of acres that they own. And, uh, you know, boy, you've got access to all that for
camping, but you don't know that unless you really dig into it and then have an accident guy with
public land. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, man, I actually didn't know that that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah.
If you, if you reach out to the forestry companies up in the UP, like you can find their head office
and say, Hey, what are your policies on camping? Um, I know Lime does, um, I'm going to forget the
name of it, but there's one other big one, um, that does as well. They allow you to camp on their
land. And I mean, that opens up, you know, another three or 400,000 acres of campable property. Yeah.
That, um, really cool. That's kind of really cool for public relations for forestry too. Like the
fact that they have those programs in place. Yeah. It makes me more likely to support them than I
otherwise would. Yeah. And I think when you really look into their practices, you know, they really
do practice responsible forestry because it's a long-term asset for them, right? Like, right.
They're going to harvest this and then in 15, 20 years, they're going to harvest it again and then
repeat that cycle. You know, they want to make sure that that's there for future generations as well.
Yeah. Cause future generations of them. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Same thing. Same thing with farmers.
You hear all the time how bad farming is, but really like, you know, I know poultry, but really
those birds are some of the best cared for birds you're ever going to see because it behooves us
to take care of them because we get more money then. Yeah. Yeah. So I, it's funny cause I, I
actually worked on a chicken farm, um, right after high school and yeah, same thing. Like very, I
think they had three and a half million, 4 million chicken. And, uh, yeah, I mean, the, the, you know,
they, that's not just a mom and pop shop, you know, they're, they're measuring every single output
and input that that's going on there and creating statistical models. And it's like, yeah, the
healthier and happier the chickens are, the more they produce. And you know, they, they figure out,
you know, Hey, what do we have to do to maximize this? And it turns out to maximize the chickens,
egg production, maybe happy and healthy. Yeah. So, yeah, it's not like, Oh, let's just cram a
bunch of chickens in a stinky old barn. Like let's find a way to make sure that they're happy and
healthy. And we get, we get more money and it's better for the chickens. Right.
Well, it's, uh, it's been about an hour. That was a pretty good, uh, chat. I'd say we should take this
to the Patreon, but we don't have one of those. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so check out if, uh,
if you're listening, check on bed and say, we're on Facebook and Instagram. Um, don't tell your
friends, we've got too many people already. I can't, I can't schedule enough trips unless you want
to volunteer to lead trips. Then, then I'll give you some cool spots to go. We only have like 2000
members. Come on, man. There's room for growth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I really need now is,
is people willing to step up and like, kind of leave their own thing, right? Like, Hey, you've
gone on a few trips with us. Like you find people that you enjoy wheeling with, like,
shoot me a message, ask for a route, ask for some spots and, and go out with those people that you
met that you enjoy. Like don't, don't feel bad if, if, you know, you're not bringing a ton of people,
but like, man, go schedule something. Yeah. It can't just be the botches scheduling trips. Come on
guys. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's Yammer. It's Karen. It's me, the batches.
Um, Bill Brinnick does a few, Craig does a few, but like, man, we've got like maybe 10 people who
are willing to lead like an organized trips. It's like, eh, come on. We need, we need some of you
guys to step up. Now that's my hope this year is a lot more people say, Hey, I'll lead a trip.
I know we're pretty much, I don't want to say we're taking it off, but we're not doing a whole
lot before Leatherwood. Cause we got a lot of building to do. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I,
if you look at my schedule too, like I don't have anything in saying before Leatherwood
and, uh, yeah, my, my hope is, is that we don't get too much damage because my
most Leatherwood schedule, man, we get a lot. Yeah. We've got, we're doing Leatherwood and then
I think a month or two months after that, we're going to the Ozarks with Benji.
Ooh, that'll be pretty sweet. Yeah. But all right. Yeah. Go ahead. Great talking to you guys.
Thanks for having me up. All right. Catch you guys later. Later.