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Welcome to botches off road. Join us as we talk about everything from gear reviews to

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trail stories, tent camping to rock landing and all things to do with the outdoors. Today

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we have a very special guest. Michigan's premier overland. Michigan's premier overland influencer,

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Mr. Bypass himself. Derek Vance. Yeah, close enough, man. It's a dodge. We'll take it.

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So yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, uh, you know, I'm the overland influencer, hence the bypasses.

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You know, if I was an off road influencer, we wouldn't have that bypass. I mean, at least

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you own up to it. You know, I'm just, yeah, I'm scared of everything. That's right. It's

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a eight inch axle on the GX blown up. I don't even know. Does the forerunner have an eight

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inch? I don't even know what's under that thing. The fourth gen forerunner has the eight

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inch, which is like the eighties mini truck axle. They've been using it forever. And then

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the FJ cruiser from oh seven up to 2010 has the eight inch. Then they switched to the

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eight. The nice part is because of that, they're, they're direct fit between the eight inch

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and the 8.2. You can just swap them around. Oh, 8.2 a lot stronger. That's a lot stronger.

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Yes. So the eight inch, it has some issues with, uh, if you bounce it, um, on a surface

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that has traction. So like if you're in rocks out West, um, if you bounce the rear end a

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little bit and it comes down while you're on the gas, it, uh, it gets some deflection

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in there just enough so that, uh, everything moves around just enough to just tear up all

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the gears. So it's, it's pretty common on the GX. There's a collage out there with like,

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I don't know, 15 or 20 videos and GX is all just blowing their diffs on rocks. Jesus.

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Well, yeah. So I guess on that front, we already know you drive a GX. If you want to tell us

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a little bit about your GX and the mods you got going on there. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's

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a pretty basic build. Um, you know, I've got Ironman, Foam style pro, uh, suspension on

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it. Uh, I chose that cause Tinker design said it was good. And, uh, yeah, that's, that's

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pretty good. You know, it's a 2.8 inch shock body. Um, you know, the coolest thing on it,

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I think is the Perry parts bump stops. This is new duty printed ones that are like half

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the price of zero bumps and say performance. Um, so I'm not, I'm not sponsored or affiliated

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with Perry parts, but if, if you're looking for some cheap bump stops that just kick ass,

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uh, Perry parts is the way to go. Um, the truck, go ahead. The guy that started Dura

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bumps, he's doing a lot of cool stuff. He, uh, yeah. Going from, you know, we used to

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only have really hydraulic bump stops and going from just hydraulic to what we've got

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with Dura bumps or even the, was it Perry parts? Yeah. Perry parts is 3d printed. It's

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really cool. They just 3d print like nitrogen bubbles into the, it's just crazy how far

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bump stops have come. Yeah. And I think a lot of the, a lot of it, like Perry parts,

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he's got access to all the at home testing stuff now. So like he can, he can prototype

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and test in one day, which is really cool. That's super cool. The, um, and then the truck

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came with all victory armor on it. So it's got, you know, refract front and rear bumpers

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with swing out. Um, you know, it's super Gucci. Like it's the welds on it are beautiful. Um,

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but you know, victory is pricey. I wouldn't get victory again just cause it's so dang

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expensive. Did you have the victory skid plate or no? So that's actually okay. Expedition.

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Um, and I went with them because it's aluminum and then the exchange rate out of Canada.

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So they're out of Canada and the exchange rate was really favorable when I bought it.

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So it ended up costing about as much as the ARB skids. Um, yeah, I think it was a 500

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bucks. It's a full belly length skid. So it goes all the way, um, all the way back to

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your like middle cross members. So it's, it's, it's a really nice setup. I like it a lot

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more than the air be the air be such like, I know a bunch of people have just folded

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those air bees up and it's a way cheaper than what my Savage was. Cause that was like a

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$500 skin, five or six. Yeah. Yeah. And this is like a two piece too. So you get, you get

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the, the, the front skid and then the med skid as well. So, oh, that's not a pretty

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good value, but that's not your, oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, uh, I just, let's talk about

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med stay tours. Well, that's where we were getting, I was going to say, do you want to

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tell the story on how you started Michigan's only good overland group? Yeah. So I don't

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know if we're the Michigan's only good overland group. I think there's a few floating around

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there that are really small. That isn't that do some cool stuff. I'm like, I mean, I, and

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then I'll catch a glimpse of someone I know. And it's like, you know, just a story they're

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taking and I'm like, Hey, uh, you guys are doing something cool. Where's my invite? Um,

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like a, they did that, uh, one group, they went out to a Boise blacks, the Island just

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south of, um, of Mackinac Island. And that was really cool. Yeah, you can go there. I

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think the ferry is expensive. Um, the wheeling isn't exciting, but it's like super scenic

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and you're right there and Mackinac city Mackinac Island. So it's pretty cool. Um, but yeah,

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so I started med stay tours. So how did, how did Joe and I, so it really started, um, you

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know, originally I just had an Instagram and I didn't know anything about really off-roading

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in Michigan. You know, I'd gone to the dunes and stuff in high school, but I didn't know

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anything else about it. Never got on trails. So I just got an Instagram. And what I do

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is I'd find a location that was interesting. And, uh, I'd shoot, I'd search the Instagram

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location tags, right? And anyone who was at that tag would get a message from me like,

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Hey, can you tell me about this? Can you tell me how to get here? What's, you know, what's

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that? What it's like? And, uh, I eventually, I met up with a couple of guys who were pretty

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cool on Dave G. He's still wheels with us. Sometimes he had neck surgery. So he's been

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out this year, but he'll come out with us and, uh, David blank and a couple other guys.

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Um, and we kind of did like 10 cup and like elegant and Yankee, just like very dipping

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your toes in it. Um, and then I caught wind of, I don't know, I'm not going to say the

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Jeep club, but it was a Jeep club doing a trail ride. And I just kind of saw people

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talk about it. Like, Oh, that sounds like fun. So I went out to that and, uh, you know,

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I was at the trail head that they were at. I don't remember what, what trail it was,

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but I was like, you know, Hey, do you guys care if I just kind of take along? I'm kind

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of new to this and thought it'd be good to go out with some other people. And they're

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like, well, you can follow us, but we're not gonna, we're not going to stop for you if

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you get stuck or anything. Like, well, okay, cool. And it was like a super easy trail.

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It was like Yankee spring style. Like it was not hard at all. I'm like, you guys didn't

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need to be a dick about that. You can just not send that.

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I think that's the Jeep club I got pushed out of too. I would guess if it's in our area,

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probably. Yeah. Yeah. They're, uh, I hear they've gotten better, but they really didn't

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like me back in like 2016. There's, there's a lot of people who, when, when you talk to

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them and say, Oh yeah, I did the Jeep club thing for a while. It just wasn't really my

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thing. And then if you sit down and have a beer with them, you find out like, Oh yeah,

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okay. I get it. Yeah. Um, so like that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. So I just

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kind of started getting a group of people together at the time and we didn't have any

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idea besides, Hey, I enjoyed this more with people. I thought it was more fun than going

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solo. Right. Um, so I just, I just randomly messaged people who looked like they were

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interesting and they didn't have jeeps. So that's why I started out. Cause it was like,

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Oh, the Jeep people don't want me. So I'll just message anyone who does has literally

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anything else. Um, so that's, that's kind of why we're a little Toyota heavy is, is

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because when we started out, it was a lot of Toyota's, uh, just because, you know, it's

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a little bitter about the Jeep guys. We've got a good amount of Jeeps now though. Yeah,

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we do. Yeah. And that's, it's, you know, it's, it's taken a little work to try and keep every

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all the tribes happy sometimes. Um, so I started just like organizing like, Hey, we're going

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to go to Tim Cup. Hey, we're going to go to Roush off road or whatever. Eventually someone's

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like, Hey, it's way easier to organize these things if you get on Facebook. So we got on

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Facebook and I found Michigan Overland. I was like, Oh, let's do a trail ride. So I put

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an event on Michigan Overland and at the time there's like 8,000 people in that group. I

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think there's 10,000 plus now. And like when I'd organize on Instagram, like, man, I would

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have to like message a ton of people to get people to come out. Right. Like I'd have to

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sit there and, and so I was expecting maybe seven or eight, you know, show up. Uh, no

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shit. We had, we had like 60 or 70 people show up and I pulled into the trail had a

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10 cup and I'm looking around going, what the hell? I think we had 65 or 66 trucks with

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an account. And that's, that's where I got the ticket too, from the DNR for parking on

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the power lines. Uh, they're like, we could write you a $500 ticket for every vehicle

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over 20 people here. I'm like, please don't. So they do it by people, not by vehicles.

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Yeah. So you can have either 20 trucks and a, and a group with one person in each, or

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you can have five trucks with, you know, five people in them. And then that's yeah. Four

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people in them. Good at math. Um, yeah. So they, I mean, legally, yeah. I mean, most

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of our events, like if the DNR showed up and wanted to be jerks about it, they could.

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Right. Um, we try and kind of like, so like a German, when you see us split the camps

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up and split the groups into different channel groups, that's kind of how we mitigate that.

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Just so that it's, it's like, yeah, I don't know, we're not in a group with them. We're

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just enjoying each other's company right now. We're just here at the same time as them.

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Yeah. Yeah. It's like, if 20 people, yeah, if 60 people just show up on their own and

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you decide to drive around 10 cups, that's fine. But as an organized group, that's suddenly

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a problem. So man, the DNR is freaking dumb. Yeah. I don't get me. We'll get, we'll keep,

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we can get into that later. Yes. So yeah. So then like at the time, like Joe and I had

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had hung out a lot and he came to a, you know, most of the events. So like Joe and I were

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like, well, let's, we want to do some stuff in the UP and some overlanding. And, uh, we,

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we were like, you know, organizing was such a huge group. Like we want a little more control over it

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and we don't want to have people show up. Joe didn't want to email that. I was like, cool.

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Yeah, that'll be fun. Um, like Joe's a good counterbalance to me because like where I'm

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aggressive on stuff, Joe's conservative and where I'm conservative on stuff, Joe's aggressive.

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So it's, it, you know, we, we kind of butt heads on things, but, uh, it's, it's definitely

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a balance that, that works just because, you know, we, we, we kind of counteract our worst

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tendencies with each other. We kind of, we have the same thing with me and Gavin. So yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. So, so we talked about it, like, well, let's just kind of look into starting our own

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kind of thing. And originally we kind of said, well, what if we did guided tours? Because

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obviously everyone wants to be guided by a bunch of idiots who don't know what they're doing.

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So, so we looked into that and like, I talked to a couple of people and the, the amount of work,

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like to, uh, I talked to the guys from Michigan gambler and they said, don't do it. They said,

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first of all, it's, it's crazy expensive. And then they said, as soon as you like file a

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role plan with the DNR and they approve it, they said, guess who shows up at your camp every night

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and then tickets you for anything they find. So Michigan gambler had incurred a ton of fines

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because the DNR did that. They came to their camp and just picker them for, you know, Oh,

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fire too close to the trail or not, you know, a vehicle park, 15 feet off the trail instead of

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10, whatever. So, um, so they, they were like, don't do that. Um, so we're like, well,

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forget it. Let's just make it free. Like, we're not that good anyway. We don't know what we're

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doing. So, so we just kind of built it off that. We started out with just kind of people who,

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um, we had met at some of these off road events that we'd hosted that like Roush and stuff.

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And, uh, you know, I'd, I'd see someone in Michigan Overland be like, oh yeah, I kind of

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want to do something. I've never done this before. And I just shoot them a message and be like, hey,

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you know, if you want to go out with a smaller group, whatever, um, you know, let me know. I've

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got this, you know, kind of smaller, less public group that, uh, and we do all this, we do it for

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free. And you know, you'll have some people who kind of know what they're doing at least so you're

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not by yourself. So that's kind of how it started. And then we ended up finding really cool campsites

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like right off the bat. Like I spent hours just scouring the UP shoreline with, you know, satellite

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view on one side and the public land overlay on the other side of the screens. I'm just going like

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inch by inch and be like, okay, this looks cool. And like, we ended up finding like three or four

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really cool campsites from UP right off the bat, like our first few trips. And I think that's

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really kind of spread word of mouth, like, Hey, these guys build really cool places

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and they'll be in there. So I think that's how it grew. And then, you know, from there, it's just like,

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um, I think we have a good mix of like, Hey, a little bit of chaos. Like we embrace it a little

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bit. Like you go to some events and it's so over organized and so sanitized and you're like, this

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just feels like a, you know, what a McKensley and company organize this thing. It feels so not fake,

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but like, you know, so managed that you can't really do things that you want to naturally

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bring forward. Oh, let's go off on this trails, that trails. So I think people enjoy kind of the

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aspect where you can kind of make your own adventure, but you still have, you know, people

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around who you enjoy being around. Um, so I think that's kind of part of what's fun, you know, like

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we don't have really any big guidelines besides don't be a dick and clean up after yourself.

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You know, it's, it's, it's not like, Oh, you have to have your, um, you know, uh, fire extinguisher

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under your seat. And you know, some of these rides, that's like the Western requirements is like,

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good Lord, man, like you got to dump a thousand bucks into your truck just to go out and wheel

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with them. So I think I know some local Jeep clubs like that. Yeah. It's like, Oh, you gotta

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have 35. Oh, you gotta have, uh, at least one locker. And it's like, dude, we'll figure it out.

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It's Michigan. Like why are you making all these requirements for Michigan? Even drumming, we got

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people who go through without lockers. I never turned my locker on the entire time we were drumming.

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Well, so I don't have lockers on mine anyways. Yeah. I mean, I'm on open diffs and you know,

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at the end of the day, like, yeah, I'm drumming. You guys go through some harder stuff than I will,

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but we still got to enjoy the Island and we still want to sit around the campfire, have a beer. So,

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and I'd say, I mean, we took Mark's truck up Musenemesis and I'd say that's probably the

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hardest thing there. So yeah, I think, yeah, I think technically like Musenemesis, especially on

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the line on the, I want to say it's the North side is, uh, you know, that's, that's really difficult.

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You know, you watch people like Andy Hannah, who's got, you know, tons and forties on his Tacoma.

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And it's like, yeah, you know, he doesn't always make it up the first time either.

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Right. Yeah. And then, I mean, and we won't get too far into Marvel head. We've kind of been avoiding

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that topic, but even, even post destruction, or pre destruction, marble head. I mean, that was,

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it's a decent challenge, but it's not necessarily a hard obstacle.

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No, no, not. It's still a hard obstacle.

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But it's, it's, uh, you know, it's for Michigan. I see if only ever wheeled in Michigan, right?

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Like this is your first opportunity to learn technical wheeling, right? Like you're going to

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learn how your truck reacts to being off camber to the different traction situations that you cover.

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So I think that's what made marble head so iconic was you could start out really easily.

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And then if you spend a few hours there, you could go from a very easy line, not knowing how to do

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anything to a really something seriously challenging and learning how to do that. So that was

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the draw to marble head was like, man, I can start out easy and then work my way up into,

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you know, having some real confidence to know what I'm doing and, uh, them destroying that easy line

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on the, on the side. It's like, boy, now it's all or nothing, right? Like either you're on 35s at

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least and a lacquer or you're not getting up that. Yeah, just, and we don't have anything else like

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that in the state. I mean, even Hill climb wise, we've got news nemesis, marble head. I'd say

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skitter, but skitter is difficult for a different reason. Yeah. It's good. Or you can get stuck

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going down just cause you know, you got a stream flowing down the side. There is some, there is

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harder stuff than, um, German in Michigan. Um, you have to know some very specific and very private

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Ubers. Um, I'm not going to say the name, but I think you guys have seen me talking about it before.

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Um, but yeah, I mean, when you look at that, that's like buggy trails that you see in like the

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Appalachians because it's right, you know, they're, they're rolling trucks, just trying to get through

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the trail. And it's like not a one-off it's, it's happening. And you see like the body damage they

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do. And, uh, but that's on private property. And it's like, if you don't know someone there,

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you're not going to get in. Um, I've heard rumors that there's, there's two other places in Michigan.

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Um, one of them near the mouth of the Huron where it's private property, but it's like

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pretty well used by locals for that. Like I've seen pictures of guys going up a certain, um,

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mountain, you know, there's no mountain mountains, but it's a mountain near there. Um, and it's like,

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yeah, you gotta be on forties and locks to get up that. So there's some places, but you either got

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to, you really got to know somebody to get to those places. Right. Public wise, Dromond was

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really all we had. Yeah. I can't, I mean, there's a little bit in the Q and all, there's some very

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stuff in the Q and all, but yeah, besides that, yeah. Drummond was probably the highest in Michigan.

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Yeah. I mean, we've got a handful of other hill climbs. They've all got their own challenge,

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but none of them are that, that straight rock hill climb that you had in Drummond.

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Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm going to miss, especially those steps coming out from a Glen Cove.

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Oh my God. That was, that was just fun because it wasn't that hard, but it's like the first,

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like for the guys who, Hey, we've never gone before and coming with men's state tours on a trip.

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Like that's their first real obstacle, right? You get there the first night we set up camp and we

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say, Hey, we're going to go out to, uh, to, uh, marble head and, and, you know, what's the name?

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And, and, you know, watch the sunset at marble head. And like the first real obstacle that you

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encounter is these stairs. And it's really fun. Cause you get to see all these guys who have never

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done anything like that. Get to experience that for the first time. And it's like, dude, that's

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like the most excited. You'll see someone that weekend is some guy where he gets up to the top

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of that the first time. And he's like, you know, his knuckles are white on the wheel and he's,

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you know, he's got adrenaline pumping and you're like, dude, this guy's like, he's hooked like,

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right. He's having a awesome weekend. Yeah. Um, so that's like, that's the bummer about that.

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Cause it's like, that was an obstacle that was really like the first thing you think about when

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you go on an MST trip to German is like those stairs. That's the first hard thing you encounter.

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And it's like, now it's gone. And that was kind of an exciting taste of the Island kind of.

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So I was really looking forward to seeing a GMC terrain go up them steps.

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Yeah. Yeah. Zach is, um, they, they made it very Zachable. Yeah. I don't know if that's a word yet,

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but I think that's going to be, but I was, you know, I was really excited once he got this lift

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that he put on it now to watch him be able to do stuff like that with the car that shouldn't be

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able to do it. And yeah, that's always fun. Right. He's got no chance now. Cause they just took it

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out. Yeah. Well, um, did you guys see the chat chill 233 at Leatherwood? Yes. I really

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remember that dude that like I told Zach like, Hey man, a Jeep Turkey, a Trailhawk got back here.

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Like, yeah, similar, right? Like he said, he didn't use his rear locker. So like, Hey man,

235
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like you've got, you've got an opportunity. Isn't the terrain all wheel drive though? Not true.

236
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Four wheel drive. Yeah. It's all wheel. Uh, yeah. And I wouldn't trust that transmission.

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Where are you going to be like some of those ledges like, Oh man, I want to push you, but maybe not

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eight hours from home. We've got a Trailhawk in our group and we've seen him do some stuff, but

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I've seen him do stuff. I don't think that that train could do. Yeah. No, those, those Trailhawks,

240
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dude, I've watched some videos on YouTube and it's like, they definitely are deserving of

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the Cherokee name. Like you don't get to sell in axles, but dude, they've, they've, I've seen

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owners who don't care if they damage them, do some wild stuff. Like stuff that I wouldn't do with the

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GX, which isn't really saying a whole lot, but you know, I've watched you bypass stuff that was like

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two wheel driveable. Yeah. I didn't want to get my tires muddy.

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Well, that's yeah. For me, like, you know, so there's, here's been the biggest difference

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between like Joe and I, so, you know, Joe's either Joe really enjoys the wheeling, like the harder it

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is, the more challenging he really enjoys that. I like that. I think for me, it's more about the

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community. You know, I, I get a lot more kick of hanging out around camp. I like that. I like that.

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You know, I get a lot more kick of hanging out around camp or, you know, just the trail ride,

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you know, the radio banter and stuff like that with, with some mild obstacles. I, I enjoy that

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a lot. You know, I'll do the obstacles just because everyone bullies me now. But, you know, I, I enjoy

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the community aspect of MST a lot more than, than I, I mean, I enjoy wheeling. I really do, but,

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uh, you know, it's, it's not like I'm going to have a good trip, even if the trails are like,

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you know, super difficult. Yeah. I've, uh, since coming home, I've really lowered my expectations

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now, as long as there's dirt, it's all right. Yeah. Well, it's like when we did the South shore

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exploratory trip, right? Like there wasn't anything that you would have had to go into a four wheel

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drive for besides the thunderbolt, but, uh, like the whole trip was awesome, man. Like we got to

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camp right on Lake Michigan, awesome spots. Um, you know, we got to see some really kind of cool

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scenic stuff that's really overlooked in the UP because everyone either hits the, you know,

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they either go drumming, they go the North coast or they go up to the Keywood. So there's, there's

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big sections of that people just don't really go to unless they're passing by. So we got to see

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some really cool stuff. And, uh, you know, I had, I had a riot, like, yeah. I mean, if I had a,

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I could have probably done most of it in a Buick and it was still a really, really good time.

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I, uh, I've definitely been through most of the Manistee national forest in a Buick. So I understand.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, it's, um, there's always kind of that trade off, right? Between,

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Hey, I want to, I want to go out there and just enjoy nature versus, Hey, I want to go find fun

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stuff. And it's like, I always kind of wondered, you know, why do people enjoy Yankee Springs so

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much? Cause it's, you know, it's just some gravel roads to the woods. They, they filled in like the

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only one real hard obstacle there. And it's just like, yeah, people just really enjoy getting out

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and driving around down some gravel roads. And I think, you know, I get that now a little more

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than I used to. Especially people in that area, because, you know, down in that part of Michigan,

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you don't have a whole lot of that. Just get out and explore going on. Yeah. There's, there's really

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south of really south of like, well, south of you guys, south of New York, there isn't really

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anything like Friday, we're going Christmas tree hunting by Muskegon. Cause there's just like some

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little swivers of Massey National Forest along the right, along the white river. So we're going to

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go do that on Friday, but like, yeah, it's like, you got a really thin line of national forest until

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you hit New Eagle. Then it, then you really have options to go explore. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm very

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thankful to have grown up somewhere where wheeling was all we really did. And we just had lots of it

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to do. But now that I've seen like what you guys struggle with, with just having nothing around you,

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I feel way better about that. Yeah. And I think that's part of why, you know, going back to the

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community aspect is, you know, if you want to have fun off-roading in Michigan and you're going to go

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solo, like, let's just be real. Like after a year or two, you're going to be like, man, there's

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nothing really exciting in Michigan. And you get kind of to the point where you're like, is I don't

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know if maybe this isn't hobby, you know, a hobby that I don't want to do, but when you have a group

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like MST, you know, it's like, man, just driving, you know, if you've ever been in a convoy with like

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Yamber and I and Karen, then they're sniping from the back. It's like, man, this isn't who, like,

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this is just as much fun just driving up there as anything else. It's really, it's about that,

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you know, it's a community that's, that's enjoyable to be around. I, I like when we're out just

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naturally driving, going somewhere and someone like, for example, one time Joe ran into us in

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New Agro and he just pulled up and hopped on channel 18 and knew who we were right away.

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Right. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh no, I was just going to say it's interesting now because 16

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used to be the channel and now I think almost everyone at MST is like naturally just uses 18

293
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now. Yep. Yeah. 16 for a long time. 16 was considered the like off road channel on GMRS

294
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because four by four, right? Yeah. And then 18 and 19 were supposed to be highway channels.

295
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And then one of them is supposed to be emergency, but I don't remember which one that was.

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I always kind of get a kick out of that when someone's like, Hey, I'm, I'm going to go do

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some solo camping. What, what radio should I get? And they're talking about GMRS. I'm like, dude,

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don't even, if you're solo, like get ham or you get a satellite communicator, like we're up in the

299
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UP. I'll just click mine to scan. And there's no one else out there. Yeah. You can call out on all

300
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the channels. No one's listening. Um, it's, it's whatever group you with, you know, maybe you'll

301
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get lucky and there'll be another Jeep group up there. Um, but yeah, if you're, if you're going

302
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solo, GMRS is not the answer. It's either ham or a satellite communicator. Yeah. Out West, uh,

303
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there's a lot of GMRS communications out West, but they can go for 50, 60 miles because there's

304
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nothing in the way. Yeah. When you, when you're, that's some elevation that you're on top of and,

305
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and you got no force to deal with. Yeah. You can do that. I used to go camping on a mountain, uh,

306
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up above the city. I lived in, in Arizona and I just turned the radio on and just listened to

307
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everyone down below me talking. Yeah. That's, that's fun. Cause and then you try and pick them

308
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out. Like, Oh, you hear a couple of guys talking and you know, they're just grabbing an obstacle

309
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and you're like, okay, what I bet it's those two guys there. Cause then it kind of looks like what

310
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they're talking about. Yep. Yeah. That's a lot of fun. We used to do that when, um, like my grandpa

311
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lives in Colorado and we kind of used to do the same thing. I think he has on CB then, but yeah,

312
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you sit there and you'd listen to people going by and it was like, Oh yeah. Who, who, who do I think

313
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that one is? Yeah. CB used to be big around here. When I was in high school, all of us had CBs

314
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and our trucks and now I don't hear anything on CB. Yeah. No, I think, I think a lot of it is

315
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yeah, the cell phones kind of killed CB, right? Like it went from a lot of people that was popular.

316
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Like my, my wife tells me like her, uh, her grandfather, he would drive, I think he went to

317
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somewhere around Lansing. He worked at, and then he had a CB in his car and there's a base station

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at his house. And when he got, you know, five, 10 miles, he'd call in on the CB because they didn't

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have cell phones back then. Right. Right. And he'd say, Oh, you know, Hey, I'm coming home.

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And it was like, you know, at least give his wife some time to get, you know, whatever the

321
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house or the kids or whatever cleaned up. Right. But like, yeah, the cell phone killed CB. And then,

322
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you know, GMRS is really just the hottest thing now. It's, you know, survivalists who want to be

323
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able to communicate and, uh, off roaders. I don't really know who else uses it.

324
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Um, I know there's, there's a really big community. Uh, I used to spend a lot of time with them,

325
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but they do what's called nets and we'd get on every Friday night and we'd do like trivia and

326
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stuff over the GMRS radios. But now that the FCC made it so you can't have internet connected

327
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GMRS networks, that kind of killed our nets. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, did they do that because

328
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it was clogging up channels where people were complaining. They did it because they hate us.

329
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That's yeah. Hey, these guys, these guys are doing something that's really effective and,

330
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and fun and we can't really regulate it. So we're going to just shut it down.

331
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:09,960
Yeah. Yeah. I actually was working on a GMRS network that was going to tie together as many

332
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points as I could get here in Michigan. So we'd have one big internet connected network and channel

333
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18. If you could be in say Lansing and talk to someone in Detroit, but yeah, the, uh, I never

334
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really, I haven't, I'll have to sit down with you guys. Cause like, you know, as I, as you can see,

335
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when I was trying to connect to this, I'm like a technological boomer. Like I'm just, uh, it's,

336
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it's probably pathetic for being a millennial, but like, like I hear it, like when we're cruising,

337
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I'll hear, you know, repeaters as like, yeah, I don't have any idea how to connect to these

338
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dumb things. Like what button do I push to get on that stupid repeater? Yeah. I, which, uh, do you

339
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have a type C on your radio or is it a USB? Uh, I've got a USB C on it. Like I can charge my phone

340
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off of it or whatever. Yep. So we should be able to get yours on repeaters. I have the old USB A

341
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and it doesn't do repeaters at all. Oh, I can hear them, but I can't talk to them. I was about to

342
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say, I think my new walkie can have it where it seeks out repeaters and don't seek out repeaters.

343
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:26,760
Yeah. Yeah. Cause then you got to program it with like your FCC registration number or whatever to

344
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ping into a repeater the first time or something. I thought some repeaters require that. Some don't.

345
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Yeah. I don't know if I want to just talk to it. It's just on who sets it up, right? Yep. Yep. Yeah.

346
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Yeah. Yeah. The other networks pretty cool. I always wondered about that. Like, can you set up

347
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like a mobile repeater? So like if you brought a trailer with like a, you know, with a 20 foot whip

348
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on it and a big old battery pack, could you set up a repeater on German Island for the whole group to

349
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use? We are working on one. Oh boy. We've been in the talks about it, especially with our mesh network

350
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system that we're going to work on as well. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, tell me more about that. Cause

351
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that will show you, not only, so that, that sends out your GPS location on a map when you radioed,

352
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:23,800
right? How does that work? So the mesh-tastic, you have your set to what? Every 10 seconds, Mark?

353
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Yes. So every 10 seconds, they send out our location across a radio frequency and it can go,

354
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it can go anywhere from one mile to like 50 miles, depending on how clear it is.

355
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And they're just itty bitty little radios that send out like two Watts of power and they send GPS

356
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:51,720
rate signal. You can send out like little bits of data. Like let's say we're on ATAC and there's a

357
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:57,960
trail that's got something blocking it. We can put a marker on ATAC and it'll send that over the radio.

358
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:06,440
It'll do, we can text message over it. So does this, does it run off like a cell phone or how's

359
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:16,440
that? How do you, so there's a few different ways I have one second. I have this one. This one's a,

360
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:22,920
just a handheld. It doesn't have any need for a phone, but then you can also get them where you

361
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,280
have to use the app on your phone. Yeah. Like that one Mark's got right there. Okay. So I mean,

362
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:33,080
there's lots of ways to use Mesh-tastic. Cause that one of the things I've always wondered,

363
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:42,200
you know, with MST, like we haven't really gotten split up and lost as a group since we, like 2022,

364
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,640
but like, I always kind of wondered like, man, it would be really cool if I could just plop

365
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:53,000
something in somebody's car, you know, every three or four cars, you can see where everyone is.

366
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,880
That's exactly what Mesh-tastic is supposed to do. And it's mesh. So let's say you're the first car

367
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:05,240
and you can only talk to the third car. Well, that third car is going to repeat and send whatever

368
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:10,360
you sent to the eighth car. And then you'll get the signal back across the same network.

369
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,560
Oh, that's pretty cool. I like that. So, yeah, cause sometimes, sometimes when we're talking

370
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,880
about convoy and it's strung out, like at the beginning of a trip, right? Like I'll say, hey,

371
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,480
if you're halfway through the convoy, make sure to repeat back what I said. So the people behind us

372
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:29,480
can hear. And by the end of it, it's like, oh man, I was sitting here. Oh, we've been here for five

373
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,040
minutes. Did we lose them? Nope. They just slowly putzing along. No one's going to be laying the

374
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:39,800
messages. Yeah, that's a, we've been kind of playing with Mesh-tastic. Once we get it really

375
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,600
well solidified, we're probably going to grab some nodes and, and then we'll be able to get

376
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:49,800
nodes and get some other people to experiment with it. Yeah. That'll be, that'll be really cool.

377
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:56,840
I'd love to see how you figure out how to do that cheaply for large groups. Well, so the

378
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:03,720
cheapest node you can get, which is the one in my truck, I think it's like 18 bucks. Oh yeah. So

379
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:12,280
they're really cheap. So you can set that up. Like if I bought eight of them, let's say you

380
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:18,040
can set that up so I could just set them in my buddy's trucks. And then as we're on a trail ride,

381
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,560
they just talk to each other and I can see where my buddies are the whole time.

382
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,560
In theory, that's what it's supposed to do. Yeah. There was someone that was working on it, I think

383
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,720
about two to three years ago, and then they dropped the project that we were working on. So we have

384
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:37,000
no idea how that went for them. Yeah. There was a YouTube channel called Beyond the Raptor,

385
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,920
and he was working on a off-road specific app that used mesh-tastic to send location data.

386
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,960
Well, you just got to stalk them. And then like I did with, with half the people in MSD.

387
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,720
I've commented on the video and been like, Hey man, whatever happened with this channel or with

388
00:37:53,720 --> 00:38:00,760
this plan and then never heard back. Right. Yeah. Like I mean, that's how I grew up. Right? Like I

389
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,920
just, if you ask like the first 300 members, it's like, yeah, some weirdo just made a video

390
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,640
message me on Instagram and said, Hey, do you want to go out in the woods with me? I've got hot dogs.

391
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:21,400
I forgot the whole hot dog thing. Yeah. So you guys weren't around for the hot dog thing.

392
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:28,040
I first, when I first started, I worked at Kent quality foods, which is a grand Rapids

393
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:36,920
manufacturer of specialty hot dogs and sausages. So like every, every off, I was, I was the dog guy.

394
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,880
Every off-road event that we had, I'd bring my grill along. This is when I actually grilled my

395
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:50,120
own food instead of having other people do it. And yeah, I'd bring like a 10 pound box of like,

396
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,360
like Polish sausage and be like, Hey, we're going to grill this up, man. Everyone gets free hot dogs.

397
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,640
And like most of the time, because they had the cheapest grill possible, it's like, yeah,

398
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,520
you get some lukewarm hot dogs, baby. How do you, how do you like that?

399
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,680
But yeah, I mean, that's, that's the hot dog joke is like, yeah, we,

400
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:12,680
MST was built on free hot dogs and stalking.

401
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,960
Yeah. It's a, you were that internet stalker that all of our, uh, influence their friends

402
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:29,880
warn us about. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Like if you talk to like, if you talk to Cindy or Jeremy and you're

403
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,360
like, yeah, how did, how did you ever end up talking to Derek? It'll be like, oh yeah. He

404
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:40,680
messaged me about campsites. Stupid like that. Right. Like, Hey, dude, can you tell me where

405
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,080
your honey hole is? Like, I really want to know where your favorite spot in Michigan is. You know,

406
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,320
I was just, you do that enough time and then she gets, someone is dumb enough to fall for it.

407
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:55,560
I'm sure Cindy told you she's a sweetheart. Yeah. No, Cindy, Cindy was like super helpful. So like,

408
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,240
before we published the, yeah, which is the Uber adventure trail. It's our route across the North

409
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:08,200
shore of the UP. Um, like I reached out to Cindy, I talked to Jeremy, I talked to a few, um,

410
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:13,080
newpers that I knew. Um, I reached out to a bunch of people who I wouldn't call them like

411
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:19,080
influencers, but like very influential in the mission. And I was like, I'm not sure

412
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:26,440
Michigan overlay community. And I said, Hey, here's what I'm doing. Um, you know, and I just

413
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:32,600
kind of wanted to get your sign off, not because I think like I need your permission, but I just

414
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:38,920
want to make sure that I'm not, you know, giving away some spot that is really special, you know,

415
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:45,640
to you. Cause as soon as I had published on that, like those GPX coordinates are out of my control.

416
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:52,280
Everyone has, you can download it and share it as much as you want. So, you know, like when I,

417
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,960
when I did the, did the, yeah, you know, I, I, I pushed Cindy really hard to be like, Hey, you know,

418
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,600
do I need to make any changes? Am I too close to this? Am I too close to that? Is it going to be

419
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,080
pushing way too many people into these areas that, you know, can't really support it? You know,

420
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,640
cause the last thing anyone wants is another mouth to hear on situation where you show up and there's

421
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:18,600
you know, 15 camper vans, and then, you know, a bunch of drunks on side by sides. So, you know,

422
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,320
we, we worked hard when we did that to make sure that, you know, Hey, everyone was pretty cool with

423
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:30,600
it. So that's why there's state force campgrounds instead of dispersed spots on the YAT. Yeah. I

424
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:37,240
really appreciate you not doing a lot of dispersed bots on the YAT because those can get pretty

425
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:43,880
can get pretty destroyed pretty fast if we start publicly showing them off. Yeah. And it's like

426
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:50,760
our spot that we go to labor day at like, that's easy to get to. It's easy to find if you put the

427
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:57,880
work in, but I talked to cabin owners when we go up there and I'm actually a buddy. There's a guy

428
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:04,120
who's got a cabin right by the cemetery. And then there's the last cabin on wildcat. And I talk to

429
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:09,000
him every time we go up there and it's like, dude, we never see other trucks coming down here. We'll

430
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:14,200
see like a Jeep, but very occasionally, and we'll see some side by side. He's like, mostly it's just

431
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:21,480
locals who know about this spot. And, uh, they're like, when you, the first time you guys rolled

432
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:26,680
through here, like we had a bunch of cabin owners following us. Cause they were like, no way are

433
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,160
they going to get a truck down here? Like, you know, we got like a full size F one 50 and

434
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,840
then they're like, no way they're going to get that down there. And yeah, sure enough we did.

435
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:40,920
But, um, you know, it's one of those spots where like, dude, as soon as a bunch of people find out

436
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:47,400
about it, that's, that spot's going to just be destroyed and closed off. That's like, uh,

437
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,080
our spot up in the up Mark, the one right off that main trail there that is kind of hidden.

438
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:58,360
Yeah. With the dam once that anyone finds out about that, it's going to be taken over. It's

439
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:04,920
such a beautiful spot. It is. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's like, especially on Michigan, like,

440
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:12,840
dude, if you spend two hours putting in the work, you'll find all the cool spots. Yeah.

441
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:19,080
Even that spot we had in Cadillac, that was a really neat spot for where it was. Oh yeah.

442
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:25,320
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and some of the spots are kind of well known, but they're,

443
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:31,080
they seem to be pleased really well. Like our shake down spot, like there wasn't any trash and

444
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,800
like, no, I don't know if that's cause the Michigan jeeps group used it a month before us and they

445
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,280
clean up. They, they do it. Tom Salmetto does a really good job with his events. They, they're,

446
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,720
they're great. Like of the Jeep groups in Michigan, Michigan jeeps is wonderful. I love them.

447
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,160
Um, so they, you know, that may be why that site was so clean, but it's, I mean, it's two will drive

448
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,640
accessible. You can haul in an RV if you wanted. I'm like, dude, that place, like I didn't find any

449
00:43:55,640 --> 00:44:02,760
trash at all. So that's, you know, that is encouraging. That seems to be becoming the norm

450
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,880
for most spots in Michigan. Like there's a few spots here in New ego County and in Lake County

451
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,840
that still have trash, but for the most part, Michiganders do a pretty good job keeping,

452
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:18,920
taking care of ourselves. Yeah. And you can definitely tell, like when you roll up on a spot

453
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,480
and there's trash and you look at it, you can definitely tell this isn't somebody who's out

454
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:30,760
off-roading who made this mess. That's like, Oh, I've got a toilet in the woods. That's like,

455
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:36,280
that's some local, that's some local Yoko who didn't want to pay the $5. You know, throwing away

456
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,800
at the dump. They just drove out in the woods. And I think that's the most frustrating part for me when

457
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,320
you know, we hear people say pack it in, pack it out. They're going to close the trails cause

458
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,480
there's trash. It's like, dude, that's not the overlaying community or the off-road community

459
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:56,920
who's trash and stuff. That's, that's locals dumping because they don't want to deal with it.

460
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:02,920
My thing with that is out West, you know, in like Moab and stuff, they shut down trails. Cause they

461
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,640
said there was no proof of use. Well, there was no proof of use because we were taking care of shit.

462
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,760
Yeah. And as I do want to plug blue ribbon coalition. So out West for sure,

463
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:20,600
blue, blue ribbon coalition, you know, what I love about blue ribbon coalition is they're not just

464
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,960
sitting here passively accepting these things happening. They're not, you know, I'm kind of

465
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:31,480
over the, you know, Oh daddy government, can I please do this? Can I please do that? Like blue

466
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:38,040
ribbon coalition is out there filing lawsuits and you know, organizing lawmakers and pushing them hard

467
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,720
to open this crap back up. Like, Hey man, this is our land. Like you don't get to just shut it down.

468
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:49,080
Yep. Like, and it's like, it's like, no, we're not going to, you know, they've highly encouraged

469
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:54,200
trail cleanups, but it's not like, Oh, like if you don't do trail cleanups, this isn't,

470
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:59,160
this is going to get shut down. It's like, no, go police it. So locals stop throwing trash out there.

471
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:06,360
Like, why is this? I don't know why the off road community has to bear the burden of a

472
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,840
problem that's not caused by us. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, it'd be like,

473
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:18,040
it's like, right. Yeah. But I mean, besides some beer cans, they're not, they're not, you know,

474
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,520
we can pick up beer cans. That's fine. I don't feel bad about that. But it's like, when we're

475
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,560
dragging bed frames and stuff like that, I would just like, that's not a problem that the side by

476
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:34,360
side or the off road community is causing this locals. Exactly. Like, and we get all these,

477
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,960
you know, it's everything's like, Oh, if we don't do these cleanups, they're going to shut down the

478
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,440
trails. It's like, when are we going to start up, stop accepting that? Like I'll do a cleanup. If

479
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:48,200
you open trails up, like I will happily, I'll get, I'll get all of them as T out there. If they say,

480
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:53,080
Hey, we're going to open, we're going to open up 10 miles of trails. If you guys clean up 10 miles

481
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:59,480
of trails, we'll cut 10 miles of new trails. Like, dude, I'll make that deal all day. But if you're

482
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,920
going to sit here and threaten me and say, Oh, if we don't clean up and don't get me wrong, we should

483
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:10,520
still clean up. That's the right thing to do. But I don't like this concept that if we don't go clean

484
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:15,400
up somebody's trash, who's not part of our community, they're going to shut down the trails that are

485
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:20,120
primarily benefiting our community. Like that's, that's not a deal I'm going to make.

486
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:28,600
I wish we had someone in MST or even Michigan Overland who had the knowledge and the money to

487
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:34,840
start fighting the way that blue ribbon does. Yeah. And I think blue ribbon actually, you know, they,

488
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:42,200
um, they're expanding, right? And I think it's, it's a funding and a legislative, you know,

489
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:48,440
knowledge because they do it state by state at the state level. Um, so it, you know, if you wanted

490
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,760
them in Michigan, you'd have to say, you know, you'd have to organize the funding for you'd have to

491
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:59,960
find some sort of legal expert, which there's a couple, um, you know, there's, there's a podcast,

492
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:06,680
um, of a lawyer who handles a lot of DNR and off road issues, um, here in Michigan.

493
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:14,680
I will have fun with that. Yeah. I'll send it over to you after this, but, um, yeah, there's the,

494
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,440
you know, there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be in place for blue ribbon coalition

495
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,960
to come in and start, you know, for sure. No one knows which I'd love for them to do, but I just

496
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:29,800
don't know, you know, the, the funding just isn't there in Michigan. Right. Yeah. I agree.

497
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:37,400
I mean, it'd be nice if everyone in like, say not so much MST. I mean, if we all pitched in $5,

498
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:43,880
it's still what 400 grand or something like that or four or whatever. But if we could get like

499
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:49,320
Michigan Overland or one of those groups involved and we all pitched in $5, it, that could maybe

500
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:55,160
make a difference. Yeah. I mean, like you look at tread lightly and tread lightly is a good

501
00:48:55,160 --> 00:49:02,680
organization that does good things. They, they do a great job with trail cleanups, but you know,

502
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:08,600
all I hear is, oh, we're trying to preserve access and good. I want to preserve access, but like,

503
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:15,640
um, why do I have to fight to preserve access? Like, I want to fight to open more up and I don't

504
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:20,440
want to fight. It's just doesn't seem right as you know, like it's our land, it's public land.

505
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,920
Like, why do I have to fight to preserve access to land that's owned by the public?

506
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:30,040
And not to throw shade at tread lightly, but why do we have to shut down areas to preserve others?

507
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:36,200
Why can't we just keep them all open? Yeah. I mean, you know, there's, there's some arguments

508
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:41,320
to remain that like, Hey, this needs to be shut down. Just like, if you look at skitter hill is a

509
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:47,800
great example, right? Like if tread lightly was to come in and say, Hey, we're going to shut down

510
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:54,520
the hill and grade it and put a drain tile in it. Like, is that the right thing to do so that people

511
00:49:54,520 --> 00:50:01,800
stop driving through the woods? Or people just turn around because there's an obstacle there.

512
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:08,120
Yeah. Well, like, I mean, if you've been to skitter recently, like it went from one small path to the

513
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:13,080
woods to now there's, and hopefully no DNR officers watch this because then they'll go out there and

514
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:21,320
shut it down. But, uh, or drive a cat, you know, be sick for down the dumb thing for any DNR, uh,

515
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:28,200
listeners skitter hill is in Detroit, Michigan. It's downtown. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

516
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:34,760
But, uh, you know, there's an argument to be made that, you know, if something's not done there,

517
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:40,360
we're going to end up with a quarter mile into the woods of trails that were never there. And

518
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:47,960
you know, okay. Is a bypass necessary? Well, kind of yes. Cause we want to preserve skitter hill

519
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:53,080
because it's an enjoyable obstacle that a lot of people chill with themselves on, but you also need

520
00:50:53,080 --> 00:51:00,680
to get to the top from the bottom. If you're with a group and it's like one bypass is plenty.

521
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:06,600
Yeah. But now there's like 50. Yeah. You don't need that rabbit word of, of trails there. So

522
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:13,080
there's, there's a healthy medium, right? And it's, it's, it's managing trails so that it's enjoyable

523
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:18,440
for people. And there's some challenges, you know, the DNR doesn't have any sort of concept of managing

524
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:26,680
trails for user types. It's just right bulldozer. And, uh, I don't think, you know, there's,

525
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:31,320
there's nobody talking to DNR saying, Hey, wait a minute. What, how about we do this in an

526
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:36,760
intelligent way where like 10 cup, how many times have they bulldozed the mud hole on 10 cup when

527
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:43,800
you cross the power lines? It's, uh, like the Southern crossing. Yeah. It's always that they,

528
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:49,960
they bulldoze that maybe once a year. And then by the end of the year, like, it's just, you got,

529
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,360
you got a four foot mud pit on either side and you can barely get through. And it's like, at what

530
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:59,000
point do you look at that and go, Hey, just leave this. Cause the off roaders actually enjoy it.

531
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:06,040
And dude, the spot where the side-by-sides bypass through the woods, that's dry. That's not out of

532
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:12,360
spring. Like they're going to go through there anyway. And then you're going to be able to,

533
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:18,120
go through there anyway, make that the go around. Yep. And then you don't have 15 go around. You've

534
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:23,720
got one official one that's on dry, non spring fed land. And then you solve all the problems that

535
00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:31,880
you got. Yeah. And you don't lose an actually fun obstacle. Exactly. Now you might have some, you

536
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:37,640
know, Hunter who comes through there and is Chevy 1500 and then complains cause he drove into a mud

537
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:44,680
pit, but that can be fixed with tread lightly signage that can be fixed with a people being

538
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:51,160
well, I don't know if it's dumb as much as, you know, you can get mixed use back there

539
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:56,280
and you get some, you get some hunters, some family out mushroom picking or sightseeing

540
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,440
and they just see a little mud and they go, Oh, well the rest of the trails got some little

541
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,880
puddles on it. You know, this should be fine. And, uh, you know, then they ended up, you know,

542
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,920
door seal deep in a puddle. So, you know, if you want to keep some of those things, there's a two

543
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:15,720
fold approach, right? Some signage so that people know, so you don't end up, you know, some poor

544
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:21,400
smoke getting stuck and then finding something that's going to be a permanent solution. Cause

545
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:26,040
yeah, bulldozing that those holes every year, there's a spring underneath that it's just going

546
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:31,880
to come back. Yeah. We use here in our area, we've seen a lot of the DNR ruining trails. We used to

547
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:37,800
have one, uh, right in Bridgeton that it wasn't anything difficult, but it had the best mud bog

548
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,680
in Michigan by far. Um, and that was off, you know, it was right next to the trail. So you

549
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:48,360
could either do the trail as the bypass or have fun. And they filled it all with like,

550
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:56,440
probably half or yeah, it's, and it's big gravel. I mean, it's unpleasant to drive over now. Um,

551
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:01,000
then they shut down almost all of our power line access in New Igo County, which we used to have

552
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,840
open power line access. What was that always open or was it just unregulated? Because a lot of the

553
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:14,120
power lines are on right away. Where it just looks like, you know, so most of New Igo County for a

554
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:21,080
long time, the power lines were actually marked DNR trails. Okay. But now they've gone through

555
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:26,120
and they've gotten rid of almost all of that. Yeah. And it seems to be a push. I don't know

556
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,960
if that's just because the power companies are saying, Hey, they're tearing up our access. We

557
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,200
got to be able to get, we got to be able to get, I don't know what the little semis they got, you

558
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:39,720
know, those deuce and half cell trucks that they've got, I've got to get back there. But I can

559
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:44,360
understand that the power company is saying like, Hey, we, we're going to go service these lines and

560
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:52,440
we can't get our trucks back there. So I get, I get it. Right. Like there's a giant boulders across

561
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:58,280
all the trails. So nobody can get through. I think that one was a private property though. Now Alex,

562
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:05,400
have a no, that one's not private property. That one, I mean, it's, it's New Igo County property

563
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:12,360
that is leased by consumers. Yeah. So the problem with a lot of those two, right, is, is the,

564
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:18,280
the consumers has a right away and maybe not that situation, but there's a bunch of, a bunch of spots

565
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,360
all across Michigan where people get in trouble because they're just driving on the right away,

566
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,920
but it's actually private property. It's like, right. You want to drive through a farmer's field

567
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:32,920
because there's power lines overhead, but you're driving through someone's back 40. So I, yeah,

568
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:38,600
that's, that's, that's why I'd X and Guy are so great with the public land overview, right?

569
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:46,600
For sure. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's a lot easier to know where you're going now than it was

570
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:55,800
even five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And actually it's like, I've got, and yeah, I mean, due to my,

571
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:03,000
my nature of just feeling very comfortable messaging anyone in the world, you know,

572
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,480
I've gotten access to some cool places just because I've pulled up, you know, the public lands. I'm

573
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:14,360
like, okay, this guy's name is Bob Johnson, right? And then I'll go through and find Bob Johnson out

574
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,360
of the 5 million Bob Johnson's on Facebook and like, Hey, got a question about your property

575
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:28,520
up in the UP. And about three days later, like, how did you find me? Well, I'm kind of weird. Yeah.

576
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:35,720
Unfortunately for you, yeah. Unfortunately for you, your property has some feature that I'm

577
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:44,200
interested in. So, um, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's really nice too, because like that closure

578
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:49,160
that was on the, yeah, where that guy had so many issues with side-by-side that he finally got fed

579
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:55,000
up and put a gate. Yup. Like I was about to be really, really pissed off and put that guy on blast

580
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:00,200
until I was able to kind of track him down and find out what the real story was. And then

581
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,480
that's an interesting one because it's marked as a county road when it absolutely isn't. And he's

582
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:11,560
actually suing Google right now to get it off Google maps, because it shows it as a county road.

583
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:16,760
He's like, you know, he's confirmed with the, uh, the, the county road commission, the township,

584
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:22,280
you know, zoning or whatever. And he's gone through like two or three lawyers to have it all reviewed.

585
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:28,360
He's like, yeah, it's, it's private buddy, but like Google's marked it public. So people are just

586
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:34,280
blasting down it and I'm sick of it. I guess his dog got hit and killed and that was the last straw.

587
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,480
Yeah. You said people have drug guns on him because he's like, you know, he's going out

588
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,560
there to yell at them for drinking on the side of the property or whatever. It's like, yeah,

589
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:49,640
this is a private road that we've had open. Well, like without, without the private, you know,

590
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:54,120
the on X or the guy, uh, like, dude, how in the world are you going to find out who owns that

591
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:58,920
property besides going into a township and, and figure that out? Yeah.

592
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:06,760
No onyx has, and I used to use onyx hunt for that, but now that we've got the onyx off road,

593
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,320
it is so much easier because I can actually keep track of my trails and see who owns what.

594
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:17,320
Yeah. Yeah. I love the property view and it's, it's, it's really interesting too, to see kind of like,

595
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:24,760
um, who owns what. And then I really liked too, because a lot of the timber companies have, um,

596
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:31,640
camping permissions. So as long as you're not lighting a fire, like on lime forestry land,

597
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:37,720
you can disperse camp on their land. And, um, that's really cool because they've got some

598
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:42,440
cool land with some cool spots. And a lot of people won't get in and go, Oh, private property.

599
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,000
I can't go there. But if, if you know, like I reached out to lime forestry company,

600
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:53,800
cause I was looking up how to get into, uh, paradise point by Christmas and lime owned all

601
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:59,240
that land except for the 10 foot of action strip. So, you know, I, I kind of developed this

602
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:04,120
relationship with the manager up there and he's like, Oh yeah. Like you can camp on any of our

603
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,200
land as long as you don't have a fire. Or I think you're allowed to have like a propane pit or

604
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:14,280
something like that. A lot of them allow for a non-ground fire. So if you have like one of those

605
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:21,240
little pop-up fire pits, you can get away with those too. Yeah. And it's just about being

606
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,640
respectful of them, right? Like, you know, Hey, they're, they're very willing to work with you.

607
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:30,360
And, uh, you know, as long as you don't abuse it, like, man, that's nice. That's a really nice.

608
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:35,160
Cause they've got like, they've got a massive amount of acres. It's well into the hundreds

609
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:40,200
of thousands of acres that they own. And, uh, you know, boy, you've got access to all that for

610
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:45,160
camping, but you don't know that unless you really dig into it and then have an accident guy with

611
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:55,880
public land. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, man, I actually didn't know that that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah.

612
00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:00,520
If you, if you reach out to the forestry companies up in the UP, like you can find their head office

613
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:05,800
and say, Hey, what are your policies on camping? Um, I know Lime does, um, I'm going to forget the

614
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,520
name of it, but there's one other big one, um, that does as well. They allow you to camp on their

615
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:15,640
land. And I mean, that opens up, you know, another three or 400,000 acres of campable property. Yeah.

616
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:23,080
That, um, really cool. That's kind of really cool for public relations for forestry too. Like the

617
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:30,040
fact that they have those programs in place. Yeah. It makes me more likely to support them than I

618
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:36,280
otherwise would. Yeah. And I think when you really look into their practices, you know, they really

619
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:40,840
do practice responsible forestry because it's a long-term asset for them, right? Like, right.

620
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,960
They're going to harvest this and then in 15, 20 years, they're going to harvest it again and then

621
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:52,120
repeat that cycle. You know, they want to make sure that that's there for future generations as well.

622
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:59,640
Yeah. Cause future generations of them. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Same thing. Same thing with farmers.

623
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:07,480
You hear all the time how bad farming is, but really like, you know, I know poultry, but really

624
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,120
those birds are some of the best cared for birds you're ever going to see because it behooves us

625
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:17,800
to take care of them because we get more money then. Yeah. Yeah. So I, it's funny cause I, I

626
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:24,280
actually worked on a chicken farm, um, right after high school and yeah, same thing. Like very, I

627
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:32,120
think they had three and a half million, 4 million chicken. And, uh, yeah, I mean, the, the, you know,

628
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,600
they, that's not just a mom and pop shop, you know, they're, they're measuring every single output

629
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,160
and input that that's going on there and creating statistical models. And it's like, yeah, the

630
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:46,600
healthier and happier the chickens are, the more they produce. And you know, they, they figure out,

631
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,920
you know, Hey, what do we have to do to maximize this? And it turns out to maximize the chickens,

632
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:57,240
egg production, maybe happy and healthy. Yeah. So, yeah, it's not like, Oh, let's just cram a

633
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:02,120
bunch of chickens in a stinky old barn. Like let's find a way to make sure that they're happy and

634
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,720
healthy. And we get, we get more money and it's better for the chickens. Right.

635
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:14,040
Well, it's, uh, it's been about an hour. That was a pretty good, uh, chat. I'd say we should take this

636
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:22,520
to the Patreon, but we don't have one of those. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so check out if, uh,

637
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:27,560
if you're listening, check on bed and say, we're on Facebook and Instagram. Um, don't tell your

638
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,400
friends, we've got too many people already. I can't, I can't schedule enough trips unless you want

639
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:38,360
to volunteer to lead trips. Then, then I'll give you some cool spots to go. We only have like 2000

640
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:43,560
members. Come on, man. There's room for growth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I really need now is,

641
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:48,520
is people willing to step up and like, kind of leave their own thing, right? Like, Hey, you've

642
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,680
gone on a few trips with us. Like you find people that you enjoy wheeling with, like,

643
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:57,800
shoot me a message, ask for a route, ask for some spots and, and go out with those people that you

644
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:03,480
met that you enjoy. Like don't, don't feel bad if, if, you know, you're not bringing a ton of people,

645
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:09,160
but like, man, go schedule something. Yeah. It can't just be the botches scheduling trips. Come on

646
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:15,800
guys. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's Yammer. It's Karen. It's me, the batches.

647
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:23,320
Um, Bill Brinnick does a few, Craig does a few, but like, man, we've got like maybe 10 people who

648
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:28,360
are willing to lead like an organized trips. It's like, eh, come on. We need, we need some of you

649
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,840
guys to step up. Now that's my hope this year is a lot more people say, Hey, I'll lead a trip.

650
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:39,480
I know we're pretty much, I don't want to say we're taking it off, but we're not doing a whole

651
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:45,000
lot before Leatherwood. Cause we got a lot of building to do. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I,

652
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,680
if you look at my schedule too, like I don't have anything in saying before Leatherwood

653
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:55,080
and, uh, yeah, my, my hope is, is that we don't get too much damage because my

654
01:03:55,080 --> 01:04:01,160
most Leatherwood schedule, man, we get a lot. Yeah. We've got, we're doing Leatherwood and then

655
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:05,320
I think a month or two months after that, we're going to the Ozarks with Benji.

656
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:14,520
Ooh, that'll be pretty sweet. Yeah. But all right. Yeah. Go ahead. Great talking to you guys.

657
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:32,440
Thanks for having me up. All right. Catch you guys later. Later.