Welcome to Botches Off-Road.
Join us as we talk about everything from gear reviews to trail stories, tent camping to
rock climbing and all things to do with the outdoors.
Today is a very, very special episode. And when we have the one and only Cindy Pope,
how are we doing today, Cindy?
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.
Yeah. We're super glad, super stoked. You're our second celebrity to be on here. First
being Benji Ward. And he did a newfound overland and he's got that podcast and which was formerly
budget overlaying. And he was really cool to talk to as well. But we have some really,
really cool questions that we wanted to ask you today. And I guess let's start out for
some of the listeners that may or may have not heard of you. Who are you and kind of
how did you get into to overlaning and camping in general?
Oh, hi, I'm Cindy and I run and founded Northology Adventures. I've been camping since probably
I was a baby. My parents were very lower middle-class. My mom stayed at home. My dad worked and our
camping or our, excuse me, our vacations were all camping because state parks were free.
So in the budget overlanding theme or vein there, it was basically a way for our family
to get out and have fun. We had a cool little pop-up camper that we towed behind at one
point a Pinto, not a wagon, but a Ford Pinto. Yeah. And with a like an 18 foot aluminum
Grumman canoe on top. My brother and I, my uncle, my mom, my dad, and I was an old English
sheep dog going through the needles highway.
Now you all didn't fit in that Pinto, right? Someone had to ride in the camper.
No. They remember it was a hatchback. Yeah. And so either my little brother or the dog
was in the hatchback. And my uncle said that the best seat in the house on the, in that
Pinto was the passenger seat. Cause you weren't driving and you weren't squished in the back
with the other kids. Yeah. And you had, you know, you did have control of your little
vent there. There's no air conditioning and driving to South Dakota kind of sucked, especially
in the summer. Yeah. I always was into that kind of, you know, outdoorsy stuff. My, my
dad and mom also got into whitewater canoeing and mountain biking. And so I kind of followed
them doing that. And as a older, not a young adult, an older adult, I started sharing my
adventures and I would get people reaching out. Well, where are you doing that? You know,
how can I do that? And it just all kind of snowballed from there, I guess.
And you've done some pretty cool stuff though. I mean, you, not only you founded Northology,
you founded Core and that's the Q and A Overland Adventure retreat. Right. And, and now you
have Overland the Red, which I actually didn't know where that was until earlier. And how,
how did you kind of get into the Overland the Red?
Well, it kind of go back, goes back to Core. When I first started promoting that, a gentleman,
ha, he'll laugh if he hears me call him a gentleman. This guy, Jeremiah from Overland
pioneers contacted me and he said, Hey, I love the UP. We were just up there and I'd
love to come to your event. Could I come film it and, you know, get a ticket to the event?
I was like, who is this guy? I have no idea. But I'm like, you know what? I'm not going
to film it. And his videos look pretty cool. So he came up and did a nice video review
of it. He was a really cool guy to meet. Love him and his wife. They came up and every year
he's done a video. After a couple of years, he's like, you know, Kentucky's pretty cool.
You should probably come down and check it out and ride some of the off-road trails.
And you should probably do an event down here. So that's how that got started.
Yeah, it's very cool. And I guess not to, not to backtrack, but what kind of got you,
I mean, you said it kind of started posting and I'm assuming you started with Northology
and then you kind of arranged the Core from that?
Yeah. I started just posting my adventures on Instagram and went a little farther and
I built a website. And then I, you know, when you're, when you're driving through the UP
and you're passing by the, you know, through the towns or out on the trail, you see somebody
in a cool rig. I just like, I thought, man, we got to kind of, I don't know, do an event
and get all these people together. Just like share this beautiful location and meet these
fun people that are driving around camping in the woods or on the lake and all those
weirdos. Yeah. All those, I call them scottal nerds. Yeah. All the people that, you know,
are into the same stuff you're in. And I just, I just started from there.
What year was that? The first one I believe was 2018. So before that big 2020 overland
takeoff. Oh yeah. It was before COVID and actually it's funny that you mentioned that
because I feel like COVID was the best thing that ever happened in my business. Anything,
you know, bad that happened to anybody else. No, it was, I had just this month, five years
ago, I quit my real job. Wow. He sent me a text. He says, I believe in you. It's time,
which we always knew I was going to, but he was just like, this is it. Go for it. You
just had a good feeling, I guess. Yeah. And I felt like when we were both on the same
page to do that, it would be beneficial. So I quit and I booked a whole bunch of events.
I was going to do this like camp cooking. We had a friend that was a chef that made
fried chicken over the campfire. We scheduled all these events and then, you know, what
happened in February, March, they told everybody to stay home. So at that point it was like,
holy crap, I've quit my job. I have no job. I just have this event, one event core, which
I've done twice and I'm not sure it's going to be able to happen this year. What am I
going to do now? So I had some friends that were like, well, you know, they've always
been saying that she's started a magazine. You should start a magazine. Well, nobody
reads magazines, but apparently they do. And so I was, you know, sit at home because of
the stay at home orders. And I started the magazine. And so again, like I said, I wouldn't
have had the time to do that had they not like told everybody to not go anywhere. Yeah.
Do you edit the magazine yourself or do you have an editor? Oh, I added it myself. It
is so well done. Yeah, it is. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Well, so, you know, I'm not the best
proofreader and sometimes things sneak through. And when I get, you know, I go through, I'm
like, oh crap, or somebody says something to me. I can sneak in and re-upload the correction
seamlessly. So nobody else. I do that too. No, it's a, yeah, no, I, I checked it out
a few times and really started reading into it and like, wow, this is, and I, I thought,
I thought you had an editor and everything I did not. I'm wow. That's a, that's crazy.
Well, it is crazy because I do everything. You know, I, I, I, I sell the advertising.
I look for writers. I do write occasionally for it. And then, yeah, I put it all together
and yeah, it's, it's a lot of work, but I love doing it. Right. And so when COVID started
and we were worried about this, you started an orthology. When, when did you decide or
when did I guess everybody decide that core could happen again? And I guess my question
from that is, is how was that for, where was it at that point? And how has it changed since
then? Well, we had hosted core the previous two years at, oh, there was an Atlantic mine.
Why can I think of the name of the place? North winds adventures. We had hosted it there
twice. I had, there was a fellow in Michigan, overland Rob is there with, he was working
there and Rob has since passed away. Like here's one for you, buddy. Miss you. But he
was working there and he always wanted to do an overland event. So I'm like, I'm coming
up to check your place out. And so I came up, we hit it off. We, we hosted core a couple
times at North winds, but my good buddy Todd with TC teardrops is into mountain biking
and he goes to get a check out trails and it's okay. It's all about mountain biking.
It's, it's beautiful. It's rustic. So I went up there and chatted with John at trails end
and I fell in love with the place. And of course, you know, this is that year where
we don't know if it's going to happen, but I kept like, I just tried to keep up on the
news and be positive and optimistic. Cause I really, I don't care what your political
beliefs are, but I was just like to myself, I'm like, this isn't going to affect me. You
know, outdoor events. Yep. It's not in the winter. Um, you know, we're not going to be
inside anywhere. Yeah. I kept in contact with the campground owner and he was like, we're
not shut down. The state hasn't told us we can't be open. Yeah. And I was watching, you
know, they had all the bulletins and all that crap, you know, whatever threat level it was.
And I realized that, you know, they never said outdoor events couldn't happen. Like
I think there was a perp, like so many people, like if it was under a hundred or whatever,
there were no restrictions. Yeah. And so I just, oh, go ahead. My family runs a campground
and we never, I don't ever remember us having to shut down in 2020 or 2020. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, basically I just, I just kept my finger on the pulse as best I could and hoped for
the best and, and went forward with it. And worst case scenario, if the law said we couldn't
do it, you know, I just refund everybody's tickets, right. Which would hurt, but yeah.
Yeah. I mean, there are some sunk costs in there even just running off to it, but I'm
sure also everyone would have completely understood. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and so, I mean, it's
grown obviously since then quite a bit. Um, I, and like you said, COVID, I think for the
outdoor community, kind of, I think it kind of made everything go crazy. I mean, overlanding
four by four hiking, uh, my wife and I do backpacking hiking and that's kind of when
we started doing it again. Um, I did it originally and we started doing it at that point. Um,
I bought a truck and started wanting to car camp and that's kinda, I started looking around
and started seeing all this crazy stuff about whatever overlanding is. And it's kind of
when I got into it. So, I mean, so from all these new people coming in, how, how crazy
did it get?
Well, um, it got to one point where we sold out when the tickets went on sale, we sold
out in like 20 minutes. Wow. Like the first year I, we didn't sell out. I was, you know,
I think we had like maybe 75 people there, but I was happy that we launched it and that
it happened. That was the hurdle of my life was launching an event and having happened.
Um, but yeah, it seems like the third or fourth year, it just started selling out like, boom.
Um, and, uh, we had a wait list of like a hundred people. Um, and as far as it growing,
yes, it's grown, but, um, we have finite space where we are at trails. There are only so
many campsites. Um, there are some small areas where we call flex camping, where people can
group camp, you know, there's not a fire pit for everyone, but you know, um, they all camp
together next to the lake and it seems to work out pretty good. Uh, but there's only
so much we can grow in Copper Harbor and we're at the point where, you know, we get 175,
200 people in there and that's about it.
Oh, sure. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. You're right there at the, uh, max capacity there.
Mm-hmm. And you know, the town, think about the town of Copper Harbor. There's only a
hundred permanent residents. Right. That's what I was just going to say. Yeah. So it
is two weekends after labor day. It's really, you know, some businesses closed down after
labor day there. Um, it's, it gets quieter. Um, we feel like we bring a little, um, infusion
of life and, and business to them on a weekend that's not in the peak season. Um, but also,
you know, if we had five people and 500 people there, I think it would be overwhelming.
I, yeah, I can see that. And so you started doing all of this and I guess I missed one
of the biggest questions as far as I'm concerned as being a newer overlander, um, is kind of,
you said you started it. Um, well, I guess you started getting into this when you were
very young, when you, your, your parents, when you started getting into this, did you
start with camping? Did you start with your, uh, I mean, and I mean solo or, or with your
husband, did you start camping or is it, how did you end up starting it? Well, I, this
is going to sound so stupid, but do you remember the first terminator movie when Sarah Connor
at the end is sitting in her Jeep with the top off and the German shepherd next door?
Yep. I don't remember how old I was, but I said to myself, I want to be that. I want
that jeep, that dog. And so when I finally was able to get my Jeep, I started going off
road. I joined a group. Um, I almost didn't go on this, uh, trail ride they had cause
I thought, Oh, it's just going to be a bunch of dude bros that I'll have nothing in common
with and it'll be terrible and I'll hate it. Cause I'm like this old lady, you know? Uh,
it was a lot of fun. I'm glad I went. And so, um, I ended up hosting, uh, or cohosting
a lot of Jeep camps. Um, at one point we had like 300 Jeeps and it was just basically,
you know, pitch in five bucks for porta potties or whatever. Yep. Right. Bring them in and
then we go out and ride the trails. It wasn't like a moneymaking thing, but you know, it
was, as far as the core event went, I was like, you know, um, I have a bunch of people
that are, you know, messaging me, asking me questions and needing and wanting an event
like that. Um, so let's, let's create it. So you started a Jeep. Are you still in a
Jeep right now? I am not in a Jeep still. No, I had 2015, uh, four door Wrangler Sahara.
Um, they had the heated seats. I don't give a shit about lockers. There wasn't, there
weren't many places I couldn't go and I had a winch when I got in trouble. So that's very
yeah, I loved it. I loved camping out of it. I ended up having like a ARB awning on the
side with the room and then a short, a small four foot air be awning off the back, which
was awesome. I can't find those anymore. Um, and I would just mostly me because again,
my husband would come along sometimes and he had, he's had his moments where he's like,
I really want to go camping, but it's, it's, it's my like life and it's not his life. He
does it every once in a while, but it was mostly me, um, bothering my friends up in
the up and just, uh, just enjoying the outdoors. Sure. I'd just rather be outside and barefoot.
Absolutely. Yeah. I think we're all with you on that. And so you started in the Jeep. Uh,
what are you running right now? Right now I have a 2019 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X. Um,
it's got a lift from all dogs off road, Tony shocks. I think it's the parabolic leaves.
I have to check. I always ask Ian if there I'm like, what do I have again? Cause I'm
like, I'm not a gear nerd or a truck nerd. Sure. Um, but, uh, yeah, I love it. Um, I've
got a soft topper on it right now. I have a trucked bed rack that works really good
with that soft topper underneath it. Um, and then I pull a TC teardrops off road expedition.
Uh, one of their lifted. I see. I'm a, I'm stalking your Instagram right now and that
teardrop is really cool. It's freaking cool stuff about those guys. It is freaking sweet.
Now are you stalking my personal or the, the North ology? Uh, rock river Cindy. That's
my personal personal. Good job. Yeah. That's a, that's too hard to follow or figure out,
but yeah, that's a, I love that. If I'm correct, they're one of your sponsors or one of your
key sponsors, right? Yeah. They're actually title sponsor of core for the last five years.
Yeah. Wow. And, uh, yeah, they're, they're awesome people. I, I'm going to tell you,
if you want to learn about customer service, if you're a business owner, just follow and
watch what they do. They will, you know, people buy TC's on the secondary market used and
then all up Todd and Carol and say, Hey, I've got this issue. Do they take care of these
people even though they didn't buy the T the trailer from them? They're so responsive.
They're so, I don't know. They're just, they're just a model exempt example of what, how business
customer service should be. Yeah. Well, and you'll love to hear it, especially in the
overlaying community. We like to promote the, the companies that stand out and actually
provide that kind of service. Absolutely. And they care about the community and that's
why they sponsor stuff like this. You know, they're coming up this weekend. We're doing,
and it's, it's a Wisconsin Oberlin. I also admin that like events. We've got a PF good,
rich, outstanding trails grant to do the tread lightly cleanup in the Nicolay this weekend
and they're bringing some giveaways. They're bringing some stuff to help out where we're
providing lunch. And they're just always, I don't know, they're always there and they,
they really care about the community and it's not just for sales. Sure. Oh, absolutely.
And I mean, I guess speaking of sponsors, who, who do you typically, you have some of
the bigger names at this event? Who's, who do you usually have? Well, this past year
we had of course, TC teardrops. We had a scout camper dealer. Nook overland was there with
us. Black rhino wheels. Shout out to Chris. He brings a set of, he gives away a set of
wheels. That's a big giveaway. Yeah. That's a big one. Yeah. Yeah. We've had victory four
by four. JCR off road. We've had X venture trailer. Yeah. Big names. Yeah. And X ventures
from Wisconsin. That's the big takeaway there is they are also interested in the local stuff.
Yeah. That's local. That's a, that's a, yeah. I mean, I, I personally have not been to one
of these cores. It's been on my checklist for, I don't know how long. Every time that
I think that I can go, something happens. Someone throws a monkey wrench in my plans
and that changes. But I think as a group, we're going to try to do that next year. You
really should. And just one more thing on the, the sponsors, if I could. Oh, absolutely.
You know, we're talking about core cause you know, we're all North like Midwest based,
but at the last Overland, the red, we had a local large auto dealership, Dan Cummins
auto. They were our title, title sponsor. That's cool. X grid campers was there. Oh,
wow. Second year. Cotty Wampel Overland comes in for this, for the third year. And we've
had a dirt bound from Minnesota, North overland. We had nook again, their Becker supply, dry
Fox towels. Oh, radio chatter. Yeah. Radio chats there did a year before. So yeah, I
did post some sponsors, our partners that weren't there that support us with giveaways
and whatnot. And another one, big one of those is Midland USA swag to put in the bags and
radios to give away. They've been super supportive. I think we all run the MX twos, what 275.
They sent us a 75 to get away at Overland the red this year. I've got the first MXT 275
that I pre-ordered in 2019. Nice. Yep. And I have the one that I just got like six months
ago and you know what? They're still just as good. I mean, they're, their quality has
been really good. I have not had any issues. Alex hasn't had any issues. Oh, I have issues
all the time. Well, that's because my, yeah, that was gonna say, yeah. And in fact, I had
a friend that bought the 275 and they're like, Oh, this radio is crap or something wrong
with it. And I said, email them, just, you know, let them know you're having problems.
And within a week they had a brand new one and it works great. There was just, you know,
something wrong and they got the chance to take care of it. And they did. Yeah. I would
say my first probably four years with that radio were rock solid. Um, this year I'm starting
to have little issues like the mic is starting to die and the, the button doesn't quite click
when you press it. Yeah. But I think for four years on what they, what they cost and for
what they are. Yeah. That's an absolutely, that's a great lifespan. And the fact that
it's not dead yet is even better. I still use it every day. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
I have the 400 and I think I do want to do the 275 or the 575 just cause I like the idea
of all the controls being in the mic. It is nice. I have one on my a pillar and it just
kind of, I have an external speaker because I'm deaf and, uh, not really, but I need it
so that I can hear, uh, and, and that works really well. But yeah, I mean, having everything
right there at your hands is definitely the preferred way to go. And I'd originally had
mine in a 97 F three 50 and there's like nowhere good to mount a radio in those trucks. No.
So and I had a, a 96 E three 50. Yeah. It was loud. Yeah. And the four 60 in it. Oh
yeah. And it would always blow the, the manifold gasket. So I was always like, brrrr. That
sounds about right. Yep. Mine was the hood stacked power stroke and you couldn't hear
anything over that thing. Yeah. No. Couldn't even hear your own thoughts. But I mean, so
that's, I mean, that's really, really cool. I mean, the sponsors are obviously a really
big part of it and it's really cool that we have such large name brand sponsors that are
willing to, uh, come back year after year and that kind of speaks to the event and how
great it is. Yeah. And also, yeah, the, I think that there are, there's a sentiment that,
you know, the expos you can talk to people, you know, rapid fire, you get two minutes
with everybody. Um, Chris from black rhino wrote a really nice article and he posted
on his LinkedIn profile, unprompted, just, he just felt led that, Hey, you know, these
smaller events are where the core enthusiasts goes. Oh yeah. And you can have really great
conversations with them. You can form relationships with people. You can show them what their,
your product does or looks like, or performs out on the trail. Cause you get time together
with people to go out and have fun. And you know, I've had people ask me, Hey, did X,
Y, and Z company, where they at core last year? And they didn't know cause they didn't
go, but I was like, yeah. And they're like, okay, I'm buying from them because they support
this community. Oh yes, absolutely. So that's, that's really, I don't know. It's, it's, I
did something really stupid. You guys the other day and AI made me cry because I went
and asked it, there was some Instagram thing was like, ask AI like based on what, you know,
our prior interactions, what is something about me that I might know? And then it like
tells you based on what you've interacted with it, you know, how they are, how you should,
and it just basically talked about the community. Like, you know, how much it means to, to create
that and how much, you know, my co-founder from core that was his driving force was create
community and just all the, what good flows out of that when you lift everybody up. Oh,
absolutely. I think core is one of those that for the state of Michigan really changed.
Off-roading and with four wheels in the state of Michigan, I think like no other. Wow. I've
never heard anybody say that, but that, that's kind of mind blowing. I mean, as far as like
all of these off road groups, I'm a part of, I mean, probably most Michigan off-road groups
and a lot of the bigger off-road groups around the country and core is very well known. Everybody
knows and is core the biggest overland expo in the Midwest. I, you have the more, which
is, which is close, right? I mean, does that even count as Midwest or yeah. More is the
Midwest off-road and no Midwest overland and off-road expo. And I'm actually heavily involved
in more, right? I think core is probably the second most. Well, it's, it may not be the
biggest, but it's the second best. How's that? It's the best. I know. I, I think it's the
bestest, but I hear a lot about how great core is and a lot of people say we should
go. So, well, you probably shouldn't go. I mean, don't get your hopes up. We're not,
you know, we're not like, you know, waking people up at 6 a.m. Reveille and lining them
up to go out on trail rides. And you know, it's, it's very relaxed laid back vibe. I
think that's what we want. And I think, I think, I think for the community of just getting
started, I think that's what people need. Oh yeah. That's not, that's waking people
up at six and get them lined up and rolling. That's not for newbies. It's not for beginners
and it's not for all folks. It's not there's, that's a separate event. Yeah. And I think,
I think doing that introduces, like I have a, I have a young son, 11 months old and a
wife and we've just started to get into this and I would not be going to one of those events.
Core is, is different. It's, and I've heard you say this on another podcast about how
relaxed it is. And that's exactly what we would be looking for as a family. And bringing
future generations, my son into it. That's bringing my wife into it. She now likes to
it. I mean, it does, it has a massive connection and you working with, like Tread Lightly to
clean up and preserve our trails is, is super important too. And it's just such a big impact
that, you know, I guess at one point you could have said it was maybe a small get together
is no longer, you know, such a big impact for 200 spots. You know what I mean? Yeah.
I appreciate that. And you know, we just, I always feel like every event I do has to
have an angle where we do give back, you know? And it is a great event for newbies, both
core and overland the red. Although with overland the red, you got to be careful what trails
you go on because I'm going to tell you Kentucky hard and Kentucky easy are different than
Michigan hard and Michigan easy. Oh yeah. There's no, there's no hard here. World. Yeah. That's
true. There isn't. Yes. I, uh, most of my off road experience is Arizona and Utah. So
when I compare Michigan to out there, we've got nothing hard here. No, no, we got nothing.
Well and that's good. And you did cover a lot of that. Um, a lot of what, I guess what
I want to ask as far as why core is, is so good for people to go to. Um, I mean, I don't
know. I guess my question would be other than for the newer families, for the other people
that have more off roading experience, what are they expecting when they go to core? Why,
are they going? What are they expecting when they get there? Um, I think it's, I love that
you asked this because somebody asked at the last core, you know, how many people have
been here before and how many are new. And there's always going to be a lot of new people,
but we have people that come back every year and you know, they've been doing this now
for seven years. We, we had a guy and a gal Jordan and Kate shut. That was their seventh
core and I let him or made him light the bonfire and give him the honor. Um, but I feel like
I know that there are people that are hardcore wheelers that come to core. Um, and they know
that that's not the experience they're going to get. Sure. There's a couple of trails that
give you a little bit of a thrill. Um, you know, uh, but it's a beautiful area. So they
come to, to, you know, enjoy the natural beauty. Um, you know, this year we had, uh, open skies
project tours that we did. Um, and also we included, um, we, we struck a deal with Delaware
mind tours. They gave us a little discount and anybody that wanted to go, uh, to Delaware
mine and tour that we paid for that. And there's all sorts of hiking to do there. Um, there's
people went sea kayaking out on Lake Superior. Um, there's mountain biking. There's a huge
core of mountain bikers that come to core. Um, and so it's, it's a, it's a base camp
where it's an adventure base camp mostly, you know, it's not a hard core off road event.
Um, although, you know, there are people that if you're a newbie, those trails will challenge
you and get you a little bit out of your comfort zone and, and you can grow and get some seat
time and it's valuable, uh, whether you are a newbie or a seasoned veteran.
Yeah. For everybody for a long time, there was a trail there in Q and O that maybe even
today I would say it's my absolute favorite trail. I don't know what number it is, but
it's just, everything's tight and it's mud the entire way. And then all of a sudden it's
all off camber and you got to go through like down trees and stuff. And it's so fun. I don't
know. Um, that mud just, oh, I just not a big mud. I do like camber. It's mud, it's
water, but it's hard underneath. So it's not like you're going to get stuck. Yeah. That's
one thing before I knew before I learned, I went up and visited Rob and he was telling
me some places to go and he goes, now when you get to this puddle or this road, there's
a lot of puddles on them and they're deep and they're going to be scary, but they're
all hard bottom. Yeah. That's the biggest thing is hard bottom. I have no problem going
through my FJ. If I can find that trail real quick. But I mean, what you were saying earlier
about it being for everybody, that's kind of, kind of an adventure Mecca right there.
And the UP is great for that. Um, so when you started and doing your trail rides up
there, have they changed at all? I mean, I know, I know from your podcast, you mentioned
high rock Bay at that podcast and high rock Bay had changed quite a bit. Have you noticed
trail changes as far as like shut downs or, or major trail changes in general? Well, um,
a nice thing is the trail to fish Cove now has a large parking area. Um, before you could
barely get back there, it was mostly an ATV trail, uh, is very tight and, um, very pin
stripey. Um, so that's nice. Um, now I know that Clark mine road, um, they've put a gate
up there and are intermittently closing and opening it. I think for the summer they've
closed, they closed it and then they opened it in the fall. Uh, but they had put one of
those car counters on the road and reports were that there were over 200 cars a day.
They using Clark mine road. Oh my God. Big whoops. Sorry. I never thought that was a
terrible thing. Um, but that's a really pretty road and it's, it's a shame that we can't
go out there on that when it's, when the gates closed. Um, you know, they're, they're putting
in the bike trail. So there is a little bit more traffic out there. Um, they're going
to, I think there are plans to completely improve the road to high rock bay. Um, uh,
I think plans are for official state camping out there. Yeah, they do have now there's
a pit toilets there and garbage receptacles. And there's also a garbage bearproof garbage
receptacle by Schlatter Lake. Uh, so that's, those improvements are nice. Um, it's a shame
that they're necessary because people can't keep themselves, they can't pick up themselves
and they can't stop crapping in the woods and leaving their TP flowers everywhere.
EP flowers that still don't like white flowers. Yeah. Well, it just pisses me. Oh yeah. It
pisses me off too. Like, I'm sorry. I even like, I, I picked up after my dog and somebody
was like, what are you doing that bear shit in the woods too? Well, they don't eat the
dog food. You never know. It's not a natural thing in their environment. I pick it up.
If I can pick up my dog's poop, I can pick up my own. Sorry to be gross, but it's no,
no life. Like just lean up after yourself. No, it's something that we've come across
plenty and we, of course, uh, Alex and I and the botches crew have always been pretty,
you know, we've always felt strongly about cleaning the trails as well, taking what we
can out. Yep. And it's very important to keep our trails clean and very nice because once
they start getting gross and misused is when they start shutting them down and we start
losing losing our privileges or rights to go to places that we really enjoy and love.
Can I say something about that? I'm going to be a little controversial here. Uh, M 22
people throw trash out the window. They're not going to close that down because people
throw trash out. Right. Why are they going to close any other through way? Because yeah,
yeah, just like, well, and actually to expand on that a little, the DNR, well, this is Moab
that I'm talking about here, but I'm sure it occurs here too. The DNR, the, uh, what
is it? The burrow of whatever that Moab has, they'll shut down trails. Cause they say that
there's not enough evidence of use. Well, the evidence use, the evidence use they're
talking about is trash. And if we're picking up the trash, they have no evidence of use.
That's stupid. And they'll also shut down a trail for overuse. So I'm sorry. You know,
there was a really cool place to camp outside of Munising and it was called paradise point.
I, um, it was, we know it. Yeah. And it got closed down because of trash. Like I understand
that part of that went through the landowners property, but this is the thing. I have a
friend Lee Meadows. He did like an investigative report for the magazine and he interviewed
somebody from the ranger station about it. And he asked, and anybody ever been cited
for the trash out at paradise point? And they said, no, they didn't, they didn't think anybody
had. Well, you know, seriously do your job. If you're going to make rules and you're going
to have things where people can go camp and, and have regulations, enforce the damn regulations.
And I'm going to say to, you know, kudos to the people like you and I who do clean up
when we're out there. Um, it's not, it's not usually our group that's trashing it. A lot
of it is other types of tourists and it's a shame. Yeah. Yeah. I was at paradise point
and we pulled up and the parking was jammed. You couldn't get in there. You, we had, we
couldn't camp there. We had to, you know, hike in to camp. And the re I was like, I
asked somebody, I'm like, what the heck's going on here? He goes, Oh, it's a local's
setting. Like we're locals and we can do what we want. Yeah. And the next day we ended up
picking up like a whole garbage bag full of trash. Oh yeah. And then, and not to dog on
side by sides too much, cause there's a plenty of good side and responsible side by side
owners. But I will say that I've seen more people throw beer cans out of the side of
a side by side than I have any other off road group or type of group. So not saying that
on a side by sides are the devil of our trails, but get your, get your shit together. Yeah.
It's like the snowmobiles. You're not going to get caught or the guy just driving his
truck down, you know, drinking beers and pitching them so he doesn't get a DUI. Even back in
Jeep camp, we had a no alcohol on the trail rule. If you're going to ride with us, you're
not going to drink while you're driving. That's for camp. That's always for at camp. And it
always should be for at camp. And I'm sorry, leave the beer at home. If you can't go for
a few hours without a beer, go check yourself into an AA treatment program. Absolutely.
You have bigger issues at that point. Yeah. So I guess to, to kind of move into that,
since we're talking about these, the trails and stuff, do you have a favorite trail? Do
you have a favorite area that you like or how about this? I can broaden it a little
bit. Favorite state. Do you, I mean, is Michigan your favorite or man, are you really, I mean,
don't worry. We won't judge. It's okay. Cause I could almost say that I've never been to
Oregon, but I see the pictures and views of like Oregon and Washington and this past summer
I fell in love with Idaho. Oh, I've never heard. I've never heard. Amazing. And you
know, the most I was driving by, we were just driving back south of Stanley, Idaho and we
come up, you know, we're driving down this valley between these two mountain ranges and
the, the most captivating, beautiful mountain range I've ever seen in my life was to my
left. It's called the lost river range. And it almost looks like watercolor painted the
way the erosion is coming down the sides. It's just beautiful. And we spent some time
with some friends from core that we've met at core. They live in McCall. And so we went
out one day, our friends, Chris and Jill Carr with 1941 adventures, wanted to go to black
lake. We weren't able to make it. Cause I mean, it was July 4th or fifth or sixth or
whatever and there was still snow, but just the views are amazing. And then the next day
talking about responsible, nice side-by-side people, our friends took their side-by-side
and they led us over to yellow pine. And we went through some incredible mountain passes
and just, just amazing stuff out there. Right. You know, that whole area of the state or
I'm sorry, the country is just seems like it's so much more wilder, so much more to
see so many more empty trails. Yeah. But you know, there's something out there that you
don't like out there, the forest and everything is completely different. Yep. And back here
in Northern Wisconsin and the UP that to me just feels like home. You know, it just the
boreal nature, the, all of the pines and it's lush and it's except for this summer was in
a drought. It's just so arid out there and the ground is so loose. If you happen to be
towing a U-Haul trailer and get yourself stuck, you'll learn that there's no traction.
Yeah. Oh my, does that sound fun? No, it was that, but you know, it is absolutely beautiful
and there is something amazing about those above the tree line views of the mountains
that you can't get that. Just don't see that much here. I mean, you have, you have some
scenic lookouts, you have porcupine mountains, but I mean, and that's about it. And as far
as like rocks and stuff go and you know, the mountain, the rocky terrain, I would say it,
when I first went into the UP one, that was a huge shock because the UP was like, all
of a sudden you started seeing rocks and cliff edges kind of coming out of the ground. And
I'm like, I'm still in Michigan, right? It's a whole, it's a whole different state. It's
a whole different state and people who are, who have never been over the bridge, never
been to places like Copper Harbor or like Chris point, two hearted whitefish point area.
Never seen the waterfalls. It's, it's like a whole different state and you should really
give it a try. It's, it's, it's very humbling and how quiet it is actually, as soon as you
get over the bridge. Yes. Unless you go to those places that like everybody goes like,
the mouth or even high rock Bay can get very busy. I do take responsibility for like 50
people camping at high rock Bay on the night before core. Well, I tell you, no, I, high
rock Bay's some, one of our, one of our, on our checklist actually go to, I haven't been
there yet. But I've seen videos. I watched countless videos of people traveling area.
I think I watched those arc overland adventures do the core here last year, a couple of years
ago. Yeah. And that was so cool to watch. It's, it's like, and now I'm talking to the, one
of the founders of core and it's like, wow, you know, it's like, it is, it's, it's daunting,
but it's really cool. Now, okay. Just speaking about celebrities, Benji is like a way bigger
celebrity than I am. I'm not a celebrity. You are, you are a celebrity. It's stupid to even
say it, but it doesn't happen. It's not just me. I have a team of volunteers that help
out every year. It wouldn't happen without them. You know, my husband's been very instrumental
in support and he's been at these events too. And it's, you know, it's, I'm just the nerd
that wanted to make friends with other overlanders and outdoor adventurers. That's, that's, I
mean, really that's kind of how botches is, is kind of pushing towards their direction.
We're off road group that I have joined somewhat recently and we just started the podcast because
we wanted to share our adventures and, and kind of get out there and make friends and
make connections and do the same thing. And I don't know, we've had a lot of success so
far with just meeting people and, and getting stories and hearing like how it, like just
getting in tact with you and talking about core, getting in tact with a, in Benji and
talking about the cool stuff he's got going on. So it's been really cool. Even just being,
you know, a podcast has been alive for what? Two months. Maybe that. Yeah. I think we've
been live for about two months. I think, well, maybe not, maybe not even two months. I think
the beginning of October was our first episode. Yeah. So, wow. Yeah. So we're pushing. Yeah.
We're, and now that we've met you, there's not really, that's kind of, that's all. That's
it. Well, I feel like personally, I'm a connector. Right. If I know that, you know, this guy
loves Toyota's and mountain biking, he's better. This guy who loves Toyota's and mountain biking,
you know? Yeah. And I think core is one big version of that, right? It's a, it's a, it's
one big connector that brings everybody together who loves the outdoors. And that's why it's
such a special event. And that's why we've talked so much about this during this podcast,
even though this is supposed to be more of an interview about, you know, just you and
these events kind of on the side, but core is just so special. And, and the event itself
is just so helpful to the off-road community and Michigan and the surrounding areas that,
I mean, I mean, it's something that I hope never goes away. I mean, I think that it only
gets better and it only improves the, I don't know, agenda, I guess, of, of, and the outlook
of how people look at us as an overlanding community, outdoor community.
You know, one of the coolest things about doing or creating core is just seeing what
happens because of the connections made there. I've seen people that camps together. The
next thing you know, they have their own group and they're, they're getting together and
doing things or, or, you know, we had a vendor that came and that eventually ended up hiring
a couple of our team members and they moved and now they live in Michigan. Just all sorts
of cool things like that. You know, just see, watch vendors get together and now they're
working with each other and doing collaborations and that's really cool.
Yeah, it's, it is. It's cool seeing, it's cool seeing the, the big guys all coming in
and helping kind of promote core and what it was too. It's, it's special. And now you
have overlanding the red, which is relatively newer. And that's going really well too. Do
you have any plans to make anything else coming up? Do you have any, I mean, not saying that
there are rumors, but is there any rumors of camps or any kind of more events coming
up?
Oh my God, there shouldn't be any rumors because I've been kind of quiet about it, but there
may be something new this year. I would stay tuned to the magazine, maybe like January
issue.
Ooh, can you release it on my birthday? Can it be a birthday present?
What's your birthday?
It's on the eighth.
Now I'll probably be on the first magazine comes out. Read it till the eighth and I will.
It'll sound like a birthday present.
Yes. And you know, I don't know if you guys know this, but we also do other events. I
do in May we do, we go up to copper Harbor at trails and campground. It's a very relaxed
weekend. You pay 50 bucks. Half of it goes to the cork organization, Kewin outdoor recreation
coalition, and they're hosting that weekend to clean up. So we cover the camping. We get,
you know, goodie bags and this past year, Red Ridge industries, a sponsored camp and
just a real relaxed get together on Saturday morning. You go meet at the park. They give
you bags and trash or bags and gloves. You go out and you pick up trash and then they
cook you lunch and give away some prizes. And then one year we did open skies tour.
And one year we did the Delaware mine tour. We just always have an afternoon activity.
You can also take off and just go trail riding or do whatever you want. Yeah. That's the
weekend before Memorial day. And I've had people tell me, this is my favorite event
because it's even more relaxed in it and we're given back. And then I host a Midwest, it's
called the Midwest women's offer weekend in Wisconsin. We've had Carrie Porter from discover
four by four adventures and Katie Abraham, who is a rebel rally participant. She's also
studying to be an international four wheel drive training association trainer. And she's
also doing some of the, uh, with dirt fish, the, the rally racing training. So yeah, some
and, and Karen McClellan from Ozark overland adventures has been here. And we also again
do some small cleanups and, and, uh, some just free fun stuff with Wisconsin Oberlin.
Oh, that is amazing. So we are starting to wrap it up a little bit and I have decided
just now to do a hot take section and I just want to hear your hot take on the drum and
island situation. Okay. Yeah. I just, so, so I just decided to do this section and maybe
we'll keep it from now on, but I want to hear a hot take and, and I want to know what you
think and if in just your opinion on it, no, no one's wrong, but just your opinion. My
opinion actually starts with the incredible entangled bureaucracy that kind of hid the
fact that funds for Drummond and those trails went through a program that you had to have
everything accessible to two wheel drive. Yep. Nobody knew that. Um, I'm not sure who's
to blame for that, but it really frustrates me that we have so many, so much red tape
and so much regulation and so much bureaucracy that it's hard to know those things. And then
you know, so what, I don't know what prompted them to decide that now was the time to do
that, but there was nothing anybody could do because that was done. They did it like
in the, like thieves, like at the night, like the thieves on the night, they just, well,
that was for our perspective. Yeah. That's what they do. That's how the program works.
And the fact that we don't know that is because most people are very politically ignorant
and I'm not saying that's bad. I just don't know what's going on. And there's been just
so much, I don't even want to get into the whole political side of it. I just, I just
know that, you know, that's how it was. And when it happened, it hurt us so bad because
we weren't paying any attention. Yeah. We didn't know to pay attention. It's so hard
from your point, it's so hard to be attuned and listening in on all of the off road happenings
and all of the things that the DNR are doing and all of the things that these other communities
are trying to do all at the same time. And a lot of things will slip through the cracks.
I didn't even think of listening in on some of these communities that were talking about
Drummond, never thought that it would happen. I remember taking that, or well, my stepdad
taking that while I was a young boy. And that was the first time that I was ever on Drummond
and doing Marblehead. And that was something that I always looked forward to doing with
my son. And not to say that it's done and over and then it's gone, but it's definitely
lacks the luster that it once had. And did the Jeep remove the badge of honor designation?
They did for a little while. They did. Did they give it back? I believe that they ended
up giving it back after a few people wrote in and said that the trail wasn't completely
gone. It was just half gone. And I know some of the reasoning was so that it was more accessible,
which is a two-edged sword, because more accessible also means more people can get up there and
throw their garbage around. So there were better ways to go. In my opinion, there were
better ways to go around it. They could have spent more time or money, drilled holes in
the ground, put fence posts up. They could have gone a large number of things. They could
have provided tickets. Yeah. Why don't we have people just sitting there? Why don't
we have trail cameras? With what they did, all they had to do was backfill it with pea
gravel and in five years it would be back to normal. Yeah. Just the gravel itself. And
you know what? Even pulling it back out, asking our off-road buddies, our off-road trail associations
and communities, I would have sat up there with a bucket and shovel and I would have
helped remove it and I would have helped put it up there, but they didn't. And the way
that they went about it was just so sneaky. At least that's how it felt. You know?
It really emphasizes the fact that we really need to get involved. We need to learn what
those situations are, what the dangers are. I mean, I love what they're doing out the
Blue Ribbon Coalition out West. They're really putting the foot down on the, putting the
hammer down, trying to get these things taken care of and prevent trails from being closed.
I also feel like I get really upset and I don't know somebody, like Jeep, come on Jeep,
you market these vehicles to do these things. Let's put some money into, put it into where
we need to focus our attention and reading.
Any of these vehicles that are advertised to go off-road with air quotations for the
listeners, it's to not put any money towards that or to not help in any way. It's just
at that point, it's just a cash grab for the automobile makers. I mean,
I was going to say on that note, just to toot the horn, we've been involved with Tread Lightly
events and hosted them. We actually officially joined this year as a business supporter.
Nice.
That's good. Yeah. I'm a big fan of the idea of Tread Lightly. I absolutely love it. And
something like I said that me and Alex and Mark here at Botches, we all, you know, we
take seriously because we know how much of an effect that it has me as a, you know, not
a former, but I don't do it anywhere near as much hike or backpacker understand that
trails can get shut down pretty quickly. And it almost happens as quicker on the four by
four communities. So between trails getting graded and easier to travel so that they can
be cleaned up, however you want to put it.
And then randomly turned into side by side trails. Yeah. That happens. Yeah.
Watching a soft road in the West video where he went up this trail in Idaho. So go watch
his latest video that would look like a really fun to track. And it was ATV only. So he was
rerouted back to this wide lay mass level gravel road. And the irony of the ATVs using
that road along with him while he couldn't use their road was not lost.
You know, that is funny that the way that you put that I using on X and one of my favorite
apps to use for overlanding and off-roading on it. Yeah. Sponsors please. No, I've had
a couple mistakes where I've gone off and found myself on the 65 inch trail or something
like that. And all of a sudden I'm having fun. I mean, I mean, I mean the 65 inch trails
are are obviously slim. And if you don't mind the pinstripes and then like I don't, then
they're absolutely great. And then going back to these, you know, four by four high clearance,
four by four roads, it's like, this is boring.
Yeah. And you really have to, you really have to search in Michigan when you start looking
for some trails like that. Most of them are the ones that aren't marked. So it's, it does.
And again, this goes back to keeping the trails clean, keeping them tidy and, and making sure
that there's no excuse for anyone to have to plow these roads, uh, to clean them up,
to shut them down. It all goes back into cleaning the trail.
Yeah, but I don't, I don't think even if marble had had been clean, which it was, I don't
ever remember seeing trash marble. Yeah. You know, I think they would have done it either
way. I think, yeah, it wasn't a, it wasn't because of trash. It was because of where
the funds came from. Yeah. So how they had to treat that. Yeah. I also believe that the
trucks and ATV is going past the barrier that says, you know, no vehicle traffic also like
maybe sped that decision up. Yeah, absolutely. And nobody's, nobody's sticking up for those
guys. We all know and don't love that. Um, I'm going to ask a question to anybody listening
that might be involved with DNR or maybe just knows, could someone please forward me the
statute that says you can't drive on the beach in Michigan because there are things that
say that, but people do it and they, they put up new signs, people take them down, they
put up new signs, but I just really would like to know where in the law I can refer
to that when people say, well, we've always done it. Yeah. We've always done that. It's
very different. Yeah. I'm a local. We've always done it. Yeah. And the locals are, and I hate
to say this, but 99% of the time the locals are the ones ripping out the signs. They're
the ones moving the boulders. They're the ones going out there on the Friday nights
and trashing the place. And so it's punishing all for the mistakes of a few is just silly.
Well, I also think that, um, some people just don't know any better. And when they're reading
the tread lightly information, you see some light bulb moments, you know, they have some,
you know, how to traverse like an obstacle or a puddle. Don't go around it, go through
it. But most people think they'd be maybe treading lightly by not going through it and
splashing, but you just need to go right through it and making it bigger. And I feel like,
you know, part of my mission also is to help educate people and, uh, you know, bring people
together and educate them and have fun. That's exactly what core is doing. That's, and we
love that you, uh, that we love that you made that we're so very grateful that it's a thing
that we have in Michigan. And now that you have overlanding the red, you're spreading
that, um, you know, spreading that awareness and the sense of community everywhere else.
And, uh, on behalf of the local four by four communities, we really, we really do thank
you for everything you've done. We really appreciate it. Like I said, it's, it, it makes
waves much greater than just Michigan, much greater than Kentucky. And you can see that
in the videos of other people from all around the country that come to core that come to
overlanding the red. And they talk about how great of an event it is and how well that
you and the co-founder are doing. Um, and of course everybody else that volunteers,
I mean, this is, it speaks to you guys as a one and how well you guys do. So we just
would really thank you for that. And, um, we're really excited to attend the next one.
And uh, yeah, I mean, this has been a really, really great interview. We really loved talking
to you about this. Um, and I would think we might have to have you on again at some point.
Oh, thank you. Cause I would love to talk about the more expo. Yes. Yes. We, I have
a Benji story from the more expo. I may have met Benji. I don't know if I was formally
introduced, but, um, we host the camping experience there. So everybody comes in and checks in.
We've got a set up there. We've got fire pits going and, um, each evening we're all hanging
out and Benji and a gaggle of people in those hats with the fur that stick out the flappy
hats were probably had a, they were probably a few beers in, but they were carousing from
camps to camp, just saying hi, like a band of pirates on the high seas. And it was just
kind of funny and it was, it was a fun, fun time. Yeah. Well definitely have you come
in and we, we can definitely do another mini-sode or maybe even another full length for talking
about more and just, just love to pick your brain about some other stuff and just talking
in general. It's really great to hear from you. It's really great to hear the stories
and the history behind it. And like I said, we thank you very much for coming on to the
botches off road podcast and, uh, and yeah. Well, I would love to thank you so much for
having me on. It was, it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Thanks.