Welcome to Botch's Off-Road Podcast.
Everything from over landing your stock element to wheeling something crazy.
Today it's just going to be me and Alex and we're going to talk a little bit about comms
and navigation, what he uses, what I use, how we utilize it to find trails.
And I think it's going to be an interesting one.
I guess we'll start out with you, Alex.
What do you, what do you primarily use?
What is your go-to navigation?
For navigation, it depends if I'm actually navigating or following trails, always Onyx.
Onyx is what I pay for.
Onyx is, it's just easier to use when you're going down the trail.
But if I'm actually recording or mapping something, then I always go to Gaia and I just use the
Gaia free version for that.
Okay.
Yeah.
The, uh, Onyx is like a really, for me, a really simple UI.
Um, and it's super easy for beginners.
Um, they have everything kind of highlighted out on the maps.
Um, it's very easy to click on them and add way points.
So if you do any kind of scouting, um, like Alex and I do, we, we like to scout on the
state forests and stuff for potential camp spots, potential trails we want to do.
Um, then it makes it really easy to put those way points down.
They give you coordinates.
You can color code them and organize them however you want to.
Um, so it's really nice there as well as, uh, being able to track your routes.
Like he mentioned, uh, on Gaia, you can also do that on Onyx.
Um, and I guess why do you prefer Gaia for tracking?
Just the operating system on that?
Yeah.
So Gaia's, um, recording system or their mapping system, not really their mapping system, but
their recording system, the way that it records, it's just easier to actually make good looking
maps that are clean and clean.
Just clean.
Yeah.
So for me, uh, that, uh, I understand why you would need that, but for me, as someone
who does my type of overlanding, like we've mentioned in the, in the previous episodes
that I, I don't necessarily need that for making my, for, for making maps.
Um, but I do, I do want them for scout locations.
I like the, the highlighted areas.
Um, I like to be able to download my off road maps and have everything, everything sitting
really easy to get to.
So I, yeah, I really like Onyx for that.
Um, I do actually, when I am scouting campsites, I will cross reference Gaia and Google maps
actually on satellite view while I'm looking for campsites or off road trails.
So one of the ways that you can actually go about it is choose your preferred app to,
to take your trails or campsites, go down to your state land and start looking at the
ends of the trails, you know, where they roundabout or where they end zoom in on these satellite
pictures and look for clearings.
Um, you can click down on Gaia on that exact point, copy your coordinates, paste them to
either of the Gaia or the, um, the Google maps and you can get different satellite views.
So for instance, um, last night I was doing some of the Wexford County area of Michigan
and I was cross referencing from Onyx to Gaia or Onyx to Google.
And they actually have a different time of the year.
So it's more like fall when the leaves are down.
So you can actually see the trails better and you can see if it's a campsite.
So yeah, so it's a, it's a good way to cross reference both to use multiple apps.
Um, it is not necessarily, especially when navigating, um, it's always good to have multiple
apps.
Um, you don't want to have just one tool, um, when they all kind of do something different,
um, even Gaia has got a little bit of different, uh, trails on theirs comparatively to what
Onyx has.
And Gaia doesn't really have any trails.
So Gaia pulls from external sources.
And on that same front, uh, we, the rest of us in botches, we haven't gotten you on this
yet, but we use a third mapping, uh, program called ATAC.
Um, ATAC is supposed to be used, uh, if anyone has any experience with the army's blue force
tracker, um, to tell you where troops are located and stuff.
Um, ATAC is the civilian version of that.
And we use that in conjunction with mesh Tastic, which is a off grid mesh network radio that
sends, um, location data, location data, data, location data, location data and text messages.
Uh, so we're able to keep track of where each person that is on our ATAC or on our system,
where they are on the trail, what they're experiencing, and if they need help, they
can throw a quick flare up and we can pinpoint right where they're at.
Yeah.
So, and that's, that's really good too, because that kind of, it doesn't defeat the purpose,
but it is a definite way around using something like a garment in reach.
So you can use a garment in reach and you can pay for the subscription and you can pay
$300 for the, uh, for that, or you could go with how Alex just described and overall much
cheaper and you're still getting pretty much the same thing.
Except it doesn't reach out to satellites.
So you know, if I'm wheeling in Michigan, I might go the mesh Tastic route.
Maybe I'll do mesh Tastic with, uh, maybe I'll keep a weather balloon in the truck.
That way I can just send it up and get help quicker.
Um, cause that'll reach all the way to Chicago.
I mean, I here in we're in Northern middle West Michigan and I talk to Chicago every
night.
Yeah.
Um, so it's not quite as good as like a actual satellite connection.
If I was going to wheel and say Colorado, I would definitely go with an inreach or, um,
Nevada or Utah or even Arizona.
Okay.
But it still gives you a little more peace of mind.
And I think that in the future, as the mesh network grows, we might get to a point where
that's all you need.
Yeah.
And, uh, and now with today's, uh, technology, another, another way to navigate, which we
all use pretty frequently as your phone signal.
So I'm boosting your phone signals pretty important too.
And if you want to go that route, um, I actually use a wee boost overland.
It was probably, uh, I want to say on sale, but it was, I would just say $500 for it.
And that, that runs actually pretty good.
Uh, you just have to keep in mind that you're boosting your, your existing signal.
Um, and just not to get like frustrated if you don't have any signal and it's not boosting
your signal, you have to understand that it's only going to boost the existing signal with
that in mind.
I have AT&T and when I did do my wheeling trips up in the UP, um, I had, you know, four
of ours, 4G and 5G almost the whole time.
So I really do enjoy it.
I haven't had any testing out of state with it yet, but so far it's been very rugged.
The Mount is very rugged.
It's very easy to use.
Um, you can pop your antenna into different locations and the, uh, and there's multiple
ways to hook up your antenna if you want to like hard wire it or run it through the fire
box or the, I'm sorry, the, she's, what am I thinking?
The, uh, the firewall.
So yeah.
So that's definitely a really nice, uh, a really nice addition.
With that wee boost, um, does that work with any phone carrier or yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
So there's no phone carrier, there's no subscription.
You just need to be within that booster there.
So there are two antennas on the booster.
There's an external antenna and then an internal antenna that you mount somewhere close to
where your phone's going to be mounted.
Um, usually, and, and I might get this a little wrong, but it's, uh, there's a sweet spot
actually.
And it's something like 13 inches away from your phone is what they say.
You can get like the stronger signal.
And actually if you bring your antenna too close to your phone, it actually lessens the
signal.
So you do want to monkey around with it before you actually mount the inner antenna to make
sure you're getting the strongest signal that you can.
Uh, and yeah, I mean, this works really well.
CNN and I both have AT&T, but we've, uh, we've turned it on.
I have a hard wired now to the battery.
So we've turned it on to where other people could just go into the cab area, the truck
and text their families if they needed to, or, or look at YouTube video up on how to
fix breaks, something like that.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah.
I mean, for the price, um, it's definitely expensive.
It's definitely my most expensive comms slash navigation, uh, purchase.
Uh, but you know what?
So far I don't regret it.
I think it was a, when I had the money, it was a decent, it was a decent purchase, um,
uh, for, for navigation.
Eventually I will get a Garmin in reach.
Um, I think that with the type of travel that we want to do later in, in our lives, when
we start getting a little bit more financially capable, um, that'll be really useful to have.
So yeah, so we kind of tackled a little bit on, on the navigational apps, but hard copies,
do you even carry them anymore?
I don't have any hard copies.
Yeah.
I haven't carried them in a couple, I'd say two years.
I had a large, um, a large map from Michigan.
Um, I will say that it's probably nice to have a map of the area that you're in.
Um, if for some reason, uh, something went wrong and you don't have power, you don't
have phone, anything like that.
Of course you never want to be, you never want to have to rely on your electronic devices
when you're out in the wild.
Uh, you know, if you break your car breaks down and you can't provide power and you don't
have any way to solar power it or just carry, carry spare devices.
You can, but I'm thinking long-term, you know, I, to me, I am a, to me, I am a, a worst case
possible scenario kind of guy.
So I'm thinking, you know, your, your car breaks down, your alternator goes out, your,
your battery dies.
Um, you're stuck out in the middle of nowhere and slowly everything dies without you getting
service and you have no way for you and your family to navigate your way out of whatever
trail you're on.
So that's, I mean, of course you can just pick a, pick a direction or go up river or
follow the lake shore or railroad tracks, however you want to do it.
Um, I think it's always nice to have one.
Huh?
Let's say that again.
But maps are nice.
Maps are nice.
Throw one underneath your seat and forget about it till you need it.
Like I mean, and they don't even take up.
Right.
Well, you got to, you got a general idea, right?
So, but yeah, so, okay.
So we kind of agree on that, right?
So we don't really have anything physical.
Maybe we should just, uh, at some point I, you know, I have so many backup devices though.
That I haven't really worried about it.
And I think in Michigan, unless you're in the UP, you wouldn't have to, right?
I mean, you're, you're pretty close to anywhere.
I mean, even the UP, you pick a direction and head that way within at least 50 miles,
you're going to hit something.
Yeah.
There's someone's house or yeah.
Yeah.
That's when you get up to like these bigger States that are more rural.
Um, that'll definitely come maybe a little bit more important to have that as a backup.
But so, okay.
So we're not doing any much, anything physical, especially in Michigan.
Um, we're both utilizing onyx and Gaia.
We're both utilizing the paid onyx and free Gaia.
And then you have your mesh tastic.
And um, what was the other thing?
The um, the mesh test.
Yeah, mesh task Dick and a tech.
Um, what else are we, what are, what are we trying to use here?
Um, we're not using, we're not really using Google maps.
Don't use Google maps at everybody.
I I'm D Google.
I haven't used Google in at least two years.
Only only time I use Google maps is when I'm on the highway, which I will use it for that
because the, the system is really nice for navigation on highways.
I go on the trails, it's useless.
I actually have a Garmin, an actual physical GPS.
I run a Garmin drive 65.
Yeah.
And that's what I use for on road navigation.
Um, what's really cool with the drive, the drive smart, I think is what it's called.
Um, is it actually connects to your phone and talks to the Garmin, uh, network.
So like, let's say there's an accident.
It updates that in my GPS and tells me and tells me what route to take to go around it.
Yeah.
That is nice.
And I know Google does something like that, but it's nothing of that, uh, that caliber.
Um, and yeah, you have yours, you have your little, uh, your screen there that made me
remember.
I actually, um, just bought a Amazon special info, like a, what is it?
Maybe an eight inch LCD screen that goes into my, uh, into my, you know, my radio area and
I actually run two different navigations.
Uh, you know, I'll run the onyx on that or I'll run Gaia on it and I'll run onyx on my
phone so that I have two different types of navigation up when I'm driving.
I could see if there's a trail here on Gaia that, or, or a type of trail on Gaia that
I didn't see with onyx and vice versa.
Um, like I said, the more maps you have up while you're looking and doing trails, uh,
the better.
So at least that's, that's my view on it.
Yeah.
I, if I'm actually doing trails, I usually only have onyx up.
Uh, I'll do onyx, I'll do onyx or ATAC because if I'm in New Lego County, I tend to run ATAC
instead of onyx.
Yeah, that, that makes sense.
Um, and then, so as far as that goes, like we, we do a lot of wheeling in groups.
So, um, communication is pretty important.
Um, I know that you told me, uh, when I first got started of a couple of different radios
and I ended up going with the, the Midland, uh, what is it?
MT or MX 275.
Yep.
MXT.
Yep.
MXT 275.
And I went within the same extended range antenna that you have and we get, uh, on
a clear area, probably what?
Three, three miles, maybe more.
Well, it really depends.
Um, so I, I've ran it for a while expressway driving without the, uh, eight DBI antenna
just running stock antennas.
I've had 20 miles.
Oh yeah.
I've had, now that you mentioned that I've had that a while I, um, when we separated
and I started going for trails and the group stayed on the highway, I could hear them for
a while before I actually got on there.
So that's a fair point.
Um, when we're on the trail, um, you know, you can only, you can only worry about yourself
as far as what your, what your communication goes.
Um, me and Alex, we're good.
We have pretty long range communications for what we do.
Um, yeah, which is, you know, we're not typically more than three miles away from each other
for any reason when we're wheeling.
So, but for some of these bigger overlanding groups, um, a lot of the, a lot of the handhelds
don't reach out much farther.
So maybe you can hear them just barely, but they can't hear you.
So that is something important to look at when you're looking at comms or what you're
doing, how you're going to wheel with who you're going to wheel and then kind of go
about it from there.
Um, there are different powers on some of these GMRS, uh, capable, you know, systems.
And my big thing with, uh, like the handhelds, the handhelds are useful, um, obviously really
short range, but you can't hear a handheld when you're in the truck actually wheeling.
Yeah.
It's nice.
It's nice to have a built in radio that, you know, is actually loud enough that you can
hear it because you might be getting a message, but if you can't, if you can't hear the message,
you never got the message.
Yeah.
Well, and it's nice.
I think it's good to have both.
And to your point about having, you know, a built in, uh, you know, speaker and with
the radio, it is pretty loud, but while you're wheeling and your wife's talking and the kids
screaming, I, my experience, it's not loud enough for my ADHD to focus on the, on the,
on the voice.
I have an external speaker that I plug into the, uh, to the, the onboard unit, I guess.
Uh, the, and I see two 75 and I think you have one too, right?
I think we both run the same external speaker.
We have a lot of the same, uh, just because I think I went based off of yours and definitely
don't regret it.
Um, the, the Midlands are really good, uh, a really good setup, honestly, for what we're
doing and for a lot of people, it's going to work just fine.
And with the stock, I've been, so I've got, I've got the old MXC two 75.
I've got a USB a model.
Um, I got mine in early 2019.
I used to run it in my power stroke and it's, it's just rock solid, dude.
They just were, I've got mine on 24 seven.
It's been underwater.
It's it's been in trucks that don't really have airtight seals or anything.
I mean, it's, it's had the snot beat out of it.
Yeah.
Um, Midland stuff just works, man.
I mean, I just got mine too, but Midlands been around forever.
I mean, yeah.
If you're not running Midland and you're going for something else, that's cheaper.
Bayo Fang is another one that a lot of people run.
Um, and I think, uh, I think I had a Bayo Fang and that was honestly pretty solid until
I lost it.
So, um, but yeah, so you're running, do you have, how many?
Do you have any Bayo Fangs?
I think I've got three Bayo.
Yeah.
I've got three, four Bayo Fangs.
Yeah.
They're pretty solid.
Two UV5Rs and then two GMRS ones.
Yeah.
I think I had a UV5R at one point.
Um, but so are you carrying any, you have your onboard mics.
Are you carrying any handheld mics?
Uh, walkies, anything like that?
I've got, uh, two UV5Rs.
Oh shit.
I'm sorry.
I'm thinking, I'm thinking that you just have them at home.
Okay.
No, no, I usually keep them in the truck.
I've got them on the Mali panel from the back.
Yeah.
Well, that's a good place.
Honestly.
I have, uh, I have a two pack of cheapo Amazonians, um, with, you know, the USB-C batteries that
you can charge while you're driving.
So I do like those.
Those are nice.
Um, for what they are, I can throw them to a friend and they can beat the crap out of
them and use them while we're hanging out.
And it's fine.
I can give it to my wife and it's nice to have multiple, uh, multiple communications.
So having me on board, I can sit there in the truck and she can spot me or she can help
me when I'm backing up.
I don't have to yell all the time.
That's the best part.
Yeah.
It's super nice.
They ask your wives.
So it's, uh, so it's nice.
It's nice to have that.
You can communicate without yelling and, and maybe there's something that gets missed and
it can cause issues.
So, um, so yeah, so we're running, so we're both running the MXT 275.
You have an older model.
I have the brand new model.
Um, we're both running extended range antennas.
Um, we both have handhelds.
Um, we both have some kind of navigation, uh, unit.
Um, you have the Garmin, right?
The Garmin, uh, yeah, drive smart, drive smart.
Yep.
And I have the, uh, it's running off of my phone because I'm using car play, but I'm
using the, uh, my, my large, you know, eight inch display.
It's about just basically a tablet, um, that thing to help cause that runs Android, right?
Does that have, did that have a GPS, uh, antenna that goes with it?
I think it had an internal in the actual tablet itself because it, I, I want to say that that's
basically just a tablet and put it into a, you know, and, uh, whatever it is, it's function.
I've had a few of those.
I've had a few of those and all mine had a little GPS antenna that plugged in, and then
you put it in your window and I would just run my Google maps right off that.
I did not have one that I can remember, but that doesn't mean much because my memory is
pretty dog as everyone.
Goldfish.
Yes.
Goldfish memory about 0.3 seconds and then I'm resetting.
So yeah.
So I mean, that's, that's a pretty good, uh, that's a pretty good intro on to, uh, onto
to nav and con, uh, and comms.
Um, you know, we can talk all day about Onyx and we could talk all day about Gaia at the
end of the day, guy is really good for, um, making, making routes, making trails.
Um, other than the, the bullshit that they're doing right now, they just raised the prices
on it to like what 90 bucks.
Yeah.
They went from like 20, no, it almost triple cause it was, I think it was 30 bucks and
now it's 90.
Yeah, I'm good.
I did the free before and I won't lie.
I definitely thought about doing the premium Gaia to have both because two is always better
than one, but 90 bucks.
There's no fucking way.
I can't justify that with as well as Onyx runs.
And if I'm talking preference, um, I'll just build routes and shit on Onyx man for that
price.
Hey, I don't even pay that much.
I usually wait until, uh, one of these off road influencers or overlanders gives a discount
code to Onyx cause they're all sponsored by them.
And, uh, and that's what I buy my yearly.
So yeah, Onyx, if you're listening, sponsor us, sponsor us 20s, do botches 20 for, yeah,
that'd be perfect.
All of our six listeners will greatly appreciate it greatly.
But when we're like 600 listeners, you guys are going to get a lot of kickback and it's
an investment.
You have to think about that.
Yeah.
Think ahead.
Yeah.
Think ahead.
Come on.
It's a good introduction to naps, comms, what we have, what we're using and why.
So yeah, man, thanks for, uh, thanks for joining me on here and, uh, let's, uh, we'll feed
our, uh, feed our wives.
Yeah.
My dogs are kind of going nuts.
We're about done.
I hope you enjoyed this mini-sode of the botches off road podcast.
Please tune in every Sunday for a little 20 to 30 minute clip.