Five, four, three, two, one, zero.
Welcome to show, people.
Welcome to the show.
Eat my shorts.
So here is the conversation.
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So welcome to Cash Exchange.
What a
So to jump right in what do Twilight Nickelback and M. Night Shyamalan's avatar the last airbender have in common
Very polarizing
They are indeed like you're either coke or your doctor pepper. Is anyone pro M. Night Shyamalan's avatar?
I mean, I'm sure he is maybe
Um Dev Patel he was in it. No thing. Nope. No, nope
He was not in totally
As who I haven't seen it. I didn't watch the show
What was a great show I
Have a lot to say about avatar the last airbender. Oh, well, you got plenty of time
Okay, so just a quick thing the thing that infuriates me the most about avatar the last airbender is that he mispronounces the names
It's not a book. You didn't just read all of the names. It says them in the TV show a thousand times
It's a reinterpretation. It's
Stupid so stupid they used Jasper from Twilight as
Soca Jasper Jasper. He was the
Confederate soldier
Vampire the blonde guy. He's with the little emo girl Alice. Oh
Anyway, it's a
deviating from the question a little bit
avatar the last airbender and
Twilight that dude
Man, I wish Jackson Rathbone was a nickel back you actually
Basically got it. I just wanted to go off on a little bit of a rant about avatar. They are
Super polarizing works and they're part of a growing list of things we have to justify enjoy
Yeah, which leaves us in to
The big topic of the day, which is can you separate art from the artist? I
felt like
Doing research for this episode. I felt like I was
More on the side of yes
That I could separate it like I mean I can hear
Smooth criminal in the grocery store and
It's still catchy. I mean, I definitely think about all the other stuff that happened, but yeah, I mean I can still
Still get down to it. So I think there's
In researching this because I thought just kind of going in that you would be able to separate art from the artist
And I'm sure there's situations where I haven't necessarily been able to do that, but
The question requires so much more specifics. I think to either the art or the artist. Yeah
So
There's also a couple different ways that I think the art
Versus the artist kind of conversation splits and it's when the artist did something genuinely terrible
Well, that's talking Bill Cosby R. Kelly. Maybe Johnny Depp
Situations like that versus say like Rob Schneider or
Seth McFarland where they're just aggressively political people like everyone's entitled to their own beliefs on politics
But it's a little weird if you have this massive platform. I think and you use it to
Just push aggressive politics like that's not where your platform is
built on or for I guess I definitely agree with that. I definitely think that
I'm in the Ricky Gervais camp of
You most of you didn't go to school. You're not more worldly than
the next guy
So why should we care about your opinion just because
You get paid millions of dollars to pretend to be somebody else
That's a fair point and this all goes back to
COVID and
And it was just so tone deaf and
so stupid and even if
Even if it had been the smartest people in the world which smartest people in the world wouldn't have done that
Silliness but even if it had been the smartest people in the world that knew everything
It still would come across like what are you doing? Yeah?
Yeah, the the kind of idea that everyone has to be
Their image all of the time is kind of by itself a little insane
Yeah, like that
We care as a society what Ryan Reynolds is going to vote in this election. Yeah
like it's it's crazy that we have so blurred those lines between
Celebrity as this like kind of god status thing now. Yeah, and I mean it's
so many people
like celebrities mostly I
don't
think that it is I
I I don't think it's any different than
How everyone just hopped on ozempic and then all of a sudden they looked like anorexic skeletons
Like it's it's all it's all the trend like if you're on the fence
Then you're gonna say oh, I'm voting blue no matter who but that's just because that's what all their buddies are doing
That's what everyone else in the clique is doing
Because they have careers in the arts. It seems like unless you're say Tim Allen
Then if you're an artist you would lean more democratic. Yeah, but is it fair for the ones that aren't to be ostracized for it?
I don't think you should be ostracized for that
I think if you turn your platform and the thing that you are
Famous for the thing that you make money off of if you turn that into your political platform
then I think it's fair to ostracize you for it like when Rob Schneider got booted out of a
Was a hospital fundraiser I think which is in and of itself kind of an insane premise
They hired an anti-vaxxer
Stand-up comedian who doesn't really do stand-up anymore to put on a show at a hospital fundraiser and it went
Exactly as you think it would and they kicked him out because he went on rate or rants about vaccines
About gun rights. I think
It was just nuts
At at a show for a hospital that was I want to say it was last year
I mean, yeah, he's definitely got he's gone off the rails and that's another thing I just saw on tiktok was
This is daughter's name Elking. Yeah, she was doing an interview with bunny
That's a jellyrolls. Yeah, and she was talking about what a piece of shit daddy was
and how
Mentally abusive he was now. No, I don't know if it was physical. I mean, I've seen the bench warmers
Yeah, did you know she was in that? No, it's who has a little like goth girl cameo
No tracks for her
But even at that point, I think she could have just kicked ass
So I don't think he was ever physically abusive but definitely emotionally because and I think that that is gonna roll into a lot of what
I have for this episode is that I think a lot of this stuff is all just generational trauma
Really like Rob Schneider was the butt of the joke even when he was on SNL
like you had SNL or you had a
Rob Schneider David Spade Adam Sandler Chris Farley
It was it was those three and then Rob Schneider at the bottom
I've always loved Rob Schneider, but he does have really big sidekick energy. He does he does
But he did a great job leading do spigolo and hot chick and the hot chick the animals animals
One of the really care for that one, but yeah, I mean he can handle a leading role the bench warmers kids loved it
I've always loved it. Yeah, I mean, it's but again
It's that attitude that I think he transferred into Elking and then Elking has had her issues with
With all the stuff and that's probably rooted and how
She raised with him. She was raised with him and then how he was raised with with his parents
And then all the stuff he dealt with just growing up just being was he half Filipino?
So specific to the Rob Schneider situation would it be?
Not to boycott, but would it be fair to?
Kind of kick him out of the zeitgeist because he's turning his platform into something that it wasn't like
When he did all of those stupid movies, they're great movies, but they're stupid movies
But when he did like all of those stupid movies and that was
Kind of how he cut his teeth
is it
Fair to have say that he's like past his prime now because he's just turned his his platform into
Political finger pointing all of them are past their prime. I think Adam all of what I don't do they have a name?
Did they have a name?
like the brat a brat pack they're not like
Rob Lowe and all the John Hughes people
Mm-hmm, but I don't think so
No, I mean all of them are but you have so you have spade I love spade I've always loved spade and he is
off
doing his fly on the wall podcast with Dana Carvey and
That's fine because he knows what he's about he knows that like he's self deprecating
He he knows that he's not whenever he walks into a room. He's not like the one everyone's there to see
Mm-hmm, but he's still funny. He still appreciates it and Adam Sandler will pretty much tell you hey
I'm phoning it in
Because I can't man. I'm like six. Yeah, that was a real low point. I think
Just and he said that
He'll sign on to do a movie just to give his family a free vacation to
Africa or to Australia or
I don't remember where the last one was but he did Paris for the second murder mystery. Yeah
Yeah, and then gives himself all these hot wives
Kate Beckinsale
Jennifer Aniston Drew Barrymore when I'm a writer we just watched mr. Deeds. I like when I'm a writer
That's another one see what she did was
It was I mean it was nothing dumb starlet behavior
Yeah, it's it's something that everyone does at some point in their life, but it ruined her career. Yeah, and then she had to
I don't even know what she was doing between mr. Deeds and stranger things, but if it weren't for stranger things, where she be now?
Oh, yeah, I guess I don't know what she did between
between those two and
Like she's in Beetlejuice and they're making it like a big part of their marketing campaign that she's in the second Beetlejuice because
the
The guy in Beetlejuice isn't in it
Michael Keaton's not in Beetlejuice. No Michael Keaton is oh the other dude the guy Alec Baldwin now the one that was married to
Catherine O'Hara
No, I don't even know who that was it's gonna say there's two important men in that movie and it's Michael Keaton and
Alec Baldwin
Jeffrey Jones. Yes. Yeah, he's not in this one
Because
Something we're gonna run into a little later. Oh
Yeah, all right, so I don't know how much you prepped for
But who do you have on your list?
So my list is sectioned into the type of art that they create. Hey me too. So I have
As far as books go, I'm not
The biggest reader anymore and I know that if you go back into
Like 20th century literary like literary works it gets
Real dicey real fast
But the one that I wanted to mention was JK Rowling
Because that one is the biggest part of the conversation today. That's the most current one. Yeah
There are definitely a lot of options there, but I think that she's the most important one to talk about
Given the context of this conversation for music. I have our Kelly and Michael Jackson. Hey me too for
Comedy I have Cosby and Louis CK
I didn't get to comedy and for movies. I have spacey and Weinstein
See yeah, I went a little I
Showed my age a little bit with the movie category because I did Woody Allen and Rowan Polanski
Which I think whenever whenever you think of
People that did some very questionable things like undisputed like very obvious
things have happened in their lives that are provable and then still be lauded as a hero and as this
visionary and this
Masterful person is just baffling and then whenever it comes to movies the two people that come to mind the most are
Woody Allen and Rowan Polanski. That's definitely fair. There was a another one that I came across in movies
I didn't do too much of a deep dive into it
but
It's kind of in the same vein I guess as the the Woody Allen Rowan Polanski and it's Morgan Freeman because if I'm not mistaken
I think he was in a relationship or at least had a some kind of affair with his step-granddaughter
Which is that's gross. It's it's a lot of
Things that make you think that you don't really want to think about so his wife's
Kids kid. Yes ex-wife. I don't know
I was just yuring. So I it's the granddaughter of his first wife
He and his second wife raised her since she was a child. Yeah, I mean that's and that's Woody Allen
And that's never in the conversation Morgan Freeman's
Still Morgan Freeman. Yeah, if you need a narrator for something call Morgan Freeman
Absolutely or call the guy that can imitate Morgan Freeman for a third of the price. I've seen family guy
Well, do you know works for scale? Do you know how much stuff is is credited to Morgan Freeman that he didn't do really?
He pays for them to use his name and then they pay a guy that it's usually the same person
pay him to
narrate or do whatever and then yeah, it's and this is same thing with Tom Hanks
Like with the everything really everything
Outside of the actual movies the actual toy story movies. That's all his brother really
I'm just like everything outside of the toy story movies like the
Game toys all that stuff. Oh, okay. Yeah
Interesting. I wonder what level of fame you have to have to be able to just pay someone to do your work for you
I mean, I think it it's definitely takes a lot of money
But then it also takes having a very like if you hear Morgan Freeman or you see they do a Morgan Freeman impression
Everyone has one. Everyone has a trump. Everyone has a
Walkin a walk in a lot of walking. Yeah
Yeah, so it's just like you just have to get to that level and then once you're there to have to pour your name out
I hope that culturally speaking that we're replacing Morgan Freeman with Sam Elliott
His voice is my favorite. He's the best narrator
Yes, but I mean he's right up there with Morgan Freeman. So we could lose him back to back and then what it'll be a sad day
We have do we still have the movie phone guy? Is he still kicking? No, no, definitely dead
Feel like we should have a moment of silence for these people that probably died a
couple decades ago
now
That big trailer guy he was
Maybe a decade ago wait the epic trailers guy died like the youtuber no, oh
No, but just just the voice in a world guy. Yeah, you want to start off with comedy since I did nothing for comedy? Sure
I'll take over music. So
It's kind of hard to go into comedy just because we had a lot of this conversation the last podcast that we did
So with Louis CK
He
Was canceled for
If I'm not mistaken masturbating in front of people who are unwilling
lawyers
Onto his own stomach
And I think that that which makes it worse
somehow
Is it is that is that worse? Yeah, because then you got a awkwardly get up and not try to get it all over the place
Or what you just use then you go in for the bear hug
We'll let it into your hand and just like lean into the trash can
It's so much worse
Anyway, so
That's what Louis CK was accused of yes, and
It tanked his stand-up career well tanked his whole career because at that point he was doing the show Louis for FX
And like that was what FX was known for yeah was Louis because that was
Baskets had just started getting off the ground. I think it was maybe like two seasons in I think
FX at that point had Louis and it had Wilfred the one with Elijah Wood is the dog and Simpsons reruns
Every Simpsons ever yeah, yeah, I tried that did you ever try that I did I watched a decent amount of the every Simpsons ever
I remember when
They announced that
The Simpsons were going to FX and they were gonna do that every Simpsons ever
Mm-hmm. I planned my entire weekend around it. I think I made it probably a day and a half and
My brain felt like it was a mush and I just I believe it honestly just wanted to die
I toughed it out. I toughed it out
That's the the thing that I hate most about streaming services. I don't get excited to watch things anymore. Mm-hmm. I
Don't have to like plan my day around watching something. I've been watching this season of House of the Dragon and the boys
But one to both I'm in the middle of season four of the boys and it's just so fucking political
It is it's unnecessary. It is it doesn't get any better, but I mean at least it's
At least you know, what's what's weird about it is that it's
So over the top
But it's not completely out of the realm of possibility and I think that is worse than the show being so political
Is that they can just do all of this crazy crazy stuff? And then you'd be like, yeah, I mean I could see that happening
Oh, I think that it walked a really it walked the line between
realism and fantasy really well for the first couple seasons and
Since like the probably the back half of season three to what I've watched so far of season four
It's just been all of the the maga stuff and I think they use like libtard a couple times like
I'm not I'm not watching TV so that I can be reminded of all of the stupid shit that's happening around me
Yeah, but I also think that it's the same problem that
The Simpsons fell into the same problem that South Park fell into is that the fiction or the reality became so much crazier
Than any fiction that they could have come up with that's fair and so they they can't find something to top it
So instead they have to just go along with it and put their own spin on what's actually happening
Yeah, and I mean like this episode boiler alert
I don't know it's probably
Season five or not season five episode five
There's a whole plot to murder the president
They send someone to go kill the president and this was this was aired. I mean this was filmed what like last year probably sometime
This aired two days after they shot at Trump really yeah, they had to have a disclaimer
Saying we don't support
Any violence of any kind and then they go into an episode about trying to assassinate the president
And so I mean like even a year ago
It was completely reasonable to think that maybe this guy's gonna get this had blown off on live television
Man, I just want to be in precedent at times again. Yeah
It's all I want for Christmas this year. Yeah, I mean I I always say that
You can always be overwhelmed or underwhelmed. You're never overwhelmed
You're really quoting ten things. I hate about you right now. Is that ten?
I've never seen it's a fantastic movie with your boy Heath Ledger
RIP, but no, I didn't know does he say that line? It's not him. Oh
I think um, that's what Julie Styles
Yes, I was thinking of
Alicia Silverstone
Clueless. Yes. All right. Yeah, not that one
Where she dates her stepbrother simpler times man simpler times. I guess weirder times
Anyway, Louie CK got on such a tangent Louie CK
But I just wanted to point out that my
our boys tangent and also my house of the dragon was
That I miss appointment television
And that I made it a point to have those have Sunday nights at 9 o'clock
Open so I could watch the show and nothing we could spoiled and then the same thing on
Thursdays, yeah when the boys came out I
Just stay off the internet for certain times like once the the season of something drops if I know I'm not gonna have the time to binge it
Yeah
but we have like
Monday nights are John Oliver because has come out on Sunday at 11 ish
I have a couple other ones that were out pretty recently. I'm waiting for Abbott elementary to come back
it's got the
Kid from everybody hates Chris and he's all grown up. His voice is very very deep. He didn't slept all the time
He isn't making GI Jane jokes pretty disappointing not yet. I'll get there someday
But I also have some hot takes on John Oliver, so I'll let you with your Louie CK as a part of this conversation
Yeah, yeah, and you want me just go now
Lucy K did terrible things and
Built a kind of platform of him like of his own where he has his own website and sells his own tickets for all of his shows
and so he's kind of built a
Brand new thing out of the ashes of his old career
Technically better for him, but I don't know that his career will ever be back to the
The level that it used to be because of the bad thing that he did
I think that his comedy is always going to be painted with that brush of
Yeah, he's funny, but yeah, and I think that
He
What what you're known for is also a big part of of whether you can weather a
Controversy or not because I'd say that had been Jeff Fox worthy
Then he would not be coming back. Yeah
But since he has always had these jokes that push the envelope then it makes sense that okay
Well, yeah, I mean this is probably something he's joked about before and he was just
Getting his inspiration from real life
But no what I was gonna say about John Oliver is that few episodes I've watched and I tried to catch like the big segment
Yeah every week, but
What bothers me is that he started out on
On Comedy Central on the Daily Show and use a fake pundit and
Same thing with Stephen Colbert a fake pundit
Like they were telling you real stories and they were putting a jokie spin on it
But at the end of the day like it was a real story and they were just saying hey
this is a thing that is happening yeah, and
Maybe look at it from this perspective, but now it's just hey don't vote for Trump
Don't vote for Trump don't vote for Trump and this this goes back to all this stuff with your like
Why do you think that you are so much smarter than everybody in the room?
I think that's kind of a different conversation though because John Oliver's entire platform has always been political
I
think that he's always had the same
brand of message and
Now that we're in an election year where
Everything is just banana pancakes that it makes sense to have those conversations
Vote for whoever you want to vote for he is drilling the anti-trump stuff pretty hard and the anti-RFK
Anyway, Cosby Cosby is one of the most interesting things as far as art versus the artist because as soon as
All of this stuff started coming out about him, but she's a monster just kind of objectively terrible terrible person
But it's really interesting to me that as soon as all of that stuff came out that they started pulling all of his stuff off of streaming
So there's no more Cosby show you can't find his stand-up specials
I don't think they print his books anymore, and it's the most complete cancellation. I think that I've seen
I think Jello went through a pretty heavy lull
after after all of that came out, but it's
interesting to me that
whenever the cause is so just and
It's a little bit different because his name was on the work
He assaulted people that were in the show. Yeah, that like I'm sure those people don't want to relive that time
Like it's it seems like the right move to not endorse any of that stuff anymore
But I think that's one of those things that you just kind of can't it's one of those
Situations where you can't separate the art from the artist. Yeah, because what about the people who were depending on those residuals?
From those shows should they be punished because of what he did?
that was actually one of the things that I wanted to bring up a little bit later with the
Difference kind of between
Artists who make art that's kind of solely under their name. So like our Kelly's music Michael Jackson's music
There were probably other people that wrote for it produced for it
Whatever, but it's really just them at the end of the day
Yeah, whereas like baby driver house of cards things that spacey's a really big part of
But nowhere near the only person who affect the production because it's harder to say we canceled Kevin Spacey
So we can't watch American Beauty anymore when there's so many other people in that move
I think that movie was a lot of red flags though. God that movie is awful. It wasn't Oscar
But it was a different and much worse time
What I think is pretty substantial in the talks about the art versus the artist is that whenever
Whenever all this stuff the spacey stuff went down. He was had a movie that was finished
Color of money all the money in the world all the money in the world
Yeah, and so they were able to just edit him out and put a new guy and then just do have the whole movie
I haven't seen it. So I don't I mean I would assume that it's it's watchable and it makes sense
It doesn't but wasn't great, but I don't think it was great to begin with
Yeah, I mean so so that is where we are now and so there's gonna be a point in time where as soon as someone does something
It's
That you're immediately gone. There's not gonna be any there's not gonna be any hangover any
Anything well at least I can depend on this one last this one last
Paycheck to come through. Yeah, so that's another thing. That's where AI AI starts getting into the mix and
People are already so trigger happy with
Canceling people digging up stuff that you've done said whatever no matter how innocuous it is
If it doesn't match with today's climate then you're out, but then you also with AI
You're also gonna have the ability for the AI to do the work for you
So if all the money in the world were to be made 10 years from now because we've already
We haven't mastered the technology of the de-aging and the deep fakes, but we're getting pretty close and they're going to try to like
Put out movies with James Dean Marilyn Monroe since they're about to go into the public domain
So which is crazy that a person can go into the public domain. Absolutely insane
But could you theoretically make all the money in the world?
Kevin Spacey comes out or it comes out about Kevin Spacey that he did terrible things
Would you be able to replace him with an AI version of Kevin Spacey and then just pay him for likeness rights instead of being a star in the actual
Movie, but then at that point why wouldn't you just pay him to be in the movie because it still makes a point to
Basically just cut his paycheck down
I mean that's basically all that any of this is all that a lot of this is anyway
Is if you take away a little bit of their source of income then
It's the only really only real consequences that you can have in Hollywood. Yeah, I mean, it's just like Robin Williams
I was reading a story about two weeks ago about how
he ended up
getting the part of Jeannie and
Aladdin and
He had done patch Adams. He had done good morning Vietnam
And then he had a relapse and so he was untouchable back then. I mean that was early 90s
so if you had any kind of substance abuse problems no one wanted to touch you and
Disney comes in and says hey, can you do this for us and
He did it for pennies compared to what he would have made if he'd done it at his peak
Mm-hmm, and then that resurrected his career and then he started started
bouncing back, but he had a joke that
Disney would just wait outside the Betty Ford clinic and that's where they would get the talent for their movies and it's not just
Not just their movie or their cartoons
It's also their movies because they also had Buena Vista that was like the adult the more adult stuff
Yeah, that they would also get people they would get them at their lowest point when they were their cheapest
Mm-hmm, and then use them for their name and then that was it
And then if they had a bounce back from that great if not then move on to the next person
Yeah, I mean they did the same thing with Robert Downey Jr. and Tim Allen didn't they I
Don't know if they produced home improvement, which was his big and bounce back into stardom. Yeah, he
He was definitely produced right off. He was a producer in the beginning
but he had a
Tim the tool man like the grunting fixed it man that was completely inept that was part of a comedy
You know he had that he was doing. Oh, yes. That was part of stand-up. He was doing stand-up. Oh
I didn't know it. I just know about the that he was kind of on the outs and had the the cocaine charges and then
Sick ass mustache and Kalamazoo incredible
Man, all right. Okay. I took a little bit of a different approach to this
I've got Michael Jackson's life from getting the crap knocked out of them by
Joe Jackson
All the way to
Finding Neverland leaving Neverland
Finding Neverland neverland neverland
Okay, so tell me when I give you a little factoid that you haven't you didn't know, okay
You know when Michael Jackson joined the family band to form the Jackson five wasn't he five?
It was six five or six. Yeah
Joe would emotionally abuse him physically abuse him told him that he one time he had the big fat nose and would tell him about
How ugly he was and this was a five-year-old he took the lead of the Jackson five a year in
Six or seven six or seven
He was the lead singer of the Jackson five by the time he was seven years old. They were doing shows and
clubs
bars
cabrae's
Places that would have like strip teases as a seven-year-old
Wow
1970 I want you back the first song to reach number one by Jackson five and then
after that
It was followed by abc and I'll be there
so like three
substantial hits
All in one year and so from there
he goes to new york
to film
The whiz in 1977. Have you ever seen the whiz?
I've never seen it. I haven't either the only thing I know about it is that it was produced by Quincy jones
and that
Is in it
Yeah, that's that's the only thing I know. Yeah
Uh, and that it's just it's like black you love but for the wizard of us. Okay, so
1978 so we said 1964
That Jackson was five or six years old. So this is 14 years later
Gets his first rhinoplasty
First of from everything I read three or four
Okay
1979 off the wall
With singles don't stop till you get enough and rock with you
Comes out. Mm-hmm. And so he he is making his way
Skyward right
The big big big one hasn't come out yet, but he's still on a steady path forward
Uh 1982 is when the I'm pretty sure it's the number one selling album balltime came out
Bad thriller
Is bad number one?
No, I don't know. No bad was
That was in 1987
Yeah
1982 thriller sold
70 million copies, I'm assuming that's what this number means
Yeah
Yeah, so 70 plus million copies
So that's that's when he shot up in the stratosphere and he was
Get away with anything. Yeah pretty much and uh boy did he take full advantage of that
So thriller was released
1982
The debut of the moonwalk
And the single rhinestone glove
Was 1983
Okay
1984
Uh was the pepsi incident
Okay
Where he was shooting commercial for pepsi he caught on the pyrotechnics his hair caught and it burned his scalp
and it gave him third degree burns on a scalp and
He had his third rhinoplasty so somewhere between
1978
and
1983
That five-year gap he had three rhinoplasty
Oh, okay
Pepsi commercial um, then he gets the champ named bubbles
And that's when people
started to take note
uh, they noticed that
You never
Saw him really with a woman. Uh, they noticed that he
didn't seem to have any interest in
things for adults and
Uh, just he just really seemed like he was going crazy with his money because he
He got his champ named bubbles and then he tried to buy the elephant man's bones from
uh hospital in london
And he threw a word
ridiculous number at them
And they said hey, it's not for sale, which really I don't
Should they be
Owned by anyone. Yeah, no that
Because I don't I don't think that he I mean he might have I don't know he had a doctor
Um towards the end of his life. He had a doctor that was taking care of him. You know how he died
No, uh, he had to sleep upright because as you know, like calcified right that was so heavy. Yeah, um,
His head fell forward and he suffocated in his sleep lord
So tried to buy the elephant man's bones 1987
that was released
and then 1988
came
Neverland with a carousel the ferris wheel
A train with a depot that circled the entire property
A movie theater and a zoo
all all this on one property owned by one man that
Uh
Really never had a childhood there. I mean there's been stories of
all the things that he did all the special things they had to set up like
Uh having to empty out a grocery store just so he could go grocery shopping and feel like a normal person
Which I mean that's gotta suck like you know grocery shopping sucks
But if I'd never done it before and I saw all these people doing it as just a regular part of a regular life
Right, then I would probably want that too and anyways
There was there were signs
leading up to
What ended up coming out what ended up being alleged because a lot of this stuff ended up being alleged
There's the proof
was either
Based on a child's testimony, which I mean those are hit or miss they're
They're impressionable. They're they can misremember things and the
The human human memory is is prone to getting all bungled anyways. Yeah, so
That was that was one thing. There was no physical proof until there was physical proof and then just
All kinds of stuff. I didn't know there was physical proof
Well, I got it here. So the first sexual abuse scandal alleged allegation came out 1993
And then that was followed by Latoya Jackson
Um, just outright saying yeah, michael's pedophile
Really? I didn't know that and then walking it back and saying that the only reason she said that was because she had an
Abusive husband that made her say that which I I don't know to what end
Yeah, what would that be for it would seem like you would want michael as
profitable as possible if you're just a hanger on which I mean you could
really
consider Tito and the gang hangers on like yeah, they started with him, but
Uh, they didn't have what he had and he the only one that really did anything else was Janet. Yeah
and then
Art versus the artist showed her boob at the Super Bowl boom done
On careers over yet Justin Timberlake still gets a
Telling Brittany to get abortions and
It's ruining the tour
Crying rivers
Wanting rivers cried over him
Okay, so 1993 sexual abuse allegations Latoya saves a pedophile
she retracted
now
This is where you run into a lose lose situation
So someone makes an allegation against you
Say you've got hundreds of millions of dollars in your bank and they know that
Someone makes an allegation against you
There's no proof
They're just saying hey
He did this thing
There's no criminal cases opened. It's all civil
Do you think that someone do would you if do you feel like if you paid someone off?
If you settled out of court for X amount of dollars
That would make you look guilty
Or do you think that you?
Paying that amount of money is enough to just is just to not deal with the headache
Get it over with not have to deal with it and then move on with your life
I think that if you are paying your way out of a suit of that nature
That you are trying to get the problem to go away because they don't think that a situation like that is
So easily solved with money
What if you are paying it?
uh
In case
Something else comes out like say you didn't do anything that you're being alleged of here
But then people start digging into your stuff and then they're going to find all this other stuff
I mean if that were the case then I feel like it would make more sense to fight it
yeah, because if you were able to
Be a baseless claim then whenever people with
valid reasons to come out against you
They're gonna see that you succeeded and
Maybe have a little bit more pause. What do you think is the general consensus among celebrities or just rich people in general?
When something like that happens throw money at it and hope that that's the end of it
I'm sure there's a lot of situations with most celebrities that have that kind of money
But it's easier to just throw money at a thing
So knowing Michael Jackson's net worth at the time and remember this was uh
Just six years after bad came out
How much what do you think is the minimum amount that should be paid just to make it go away?
Like there's they don't have enough for it, but you just don't want the headache of a trial
All this other stuff you just pay it and move on with your life. What do you think the minimum?
Is for that?
Oh, I don't know that I have a
Good number for that if are we talking about like what they're asking for in the settlement
Or what he's just offering them is like a just a reasonable number that they would be happy with you're not gonna miss
It just wipes all this away and all that's left are just the tabloid stories
I'm gonna say based on what was probably his net worth that a million would be a way to settle any
Any scandal? Yeah a million in 1993
Yeah
Well, he sailed for 23 million out of court in 1993. Wow. All right
That's uh, not the look of an innocent man and before they went before they made this settlement. They did go to court
um the child testified and
described
Michael Jackson's genitals to the jury
Oh
And the jury
I don't know if it was pictures. I don't know if they just said hey, Michael come in and drop them
They compared it to his genitals and they said they couldn't be without it. They couldn't
positively match them without a shadow of a doubt. Okay. Yeah, but then after that they settled for 23 million
And then whenever all that was happening before they settled the police came in
And rated the property rated Neverland. What kind of wholesome things do you think they would find?
The only thing that I remember
Because I did watch leaving Neverland back when it came out
Which is at this point. I think five years ago
Yes, whenever I watched that I remember them going into the
Like hidden rooms and stuff that he had which in Neverland Ranch, which is not a good look. That's not
It's you're a single guy. I'm immediately incriminating everyone. Thanks. You're weird as hell
because again
You're dealing with never being able to grow up
Never having the childhood to make those mistakes
Being five years old and immediately thrown in the spotlight and never being able to leave it, right? So
That aspect it makes sense, but you're not helping yourself out by having
A room behind a bookcase that you go to with this little boy
And doing interviews saying that there's nothing wrong with a ground man and a 12 year old sharing a bed
The best thing you can do for another person is share your bed
That's terrible. Look too. Yeah. No, please found
Please found
books
Large print books so like for old people old pedophiles. I don't know
of then had pictures of
boys doing activities
Like sports and stuff. Yeah, just
mundane activities
in different levels of undress
And then he claimed that someone must have sent it to him. He'd never seen it. He never opened it and that was that
Yeah, the documentary where he said there's nothing wrong with having sleepovers with minors. Yeah, the documentary
They came out that said there's nothing wrong with sleeping with minors
And then later claiming that he was misunderstood
Came from the documentary living with michael jackson 2003
This is 10 years after the previous allegations
Uh seven counts of molestation and two counts of intoxicating a minor the case finally went to court in 2005
So two years later and he was acquitted of all charges
He died in 2009 and then leaving neverland came out in 2019 which as I said before had his own controversies and
The problem you run into with with this kind of stuff is that there are people on both sides that
Stand to gain or stand to lose a lot if if the story is just tweaked one way or the other
And so you have you have the jackson side who want to make sure that like he's dead. So there's
anything past
Anything that came out post 2009 was stuff that had been
sitting on a shelf somewhere
Beeside that never got used it was just tracks that were on the cutting room floor
So they have to protect what is there as much as possible to squeeze as much money out of it as they can
Yeah, and so they're going to come out and say hey all that's bullshit about michael
None of that's true, but you can't look at all this stuff look at all the weird shit that he did throughout his
lifetime and say that
Where there's smoke a lot of smoke there's that there's no fire, right?
It's weird specifically in the the context of michael jackson because
We don't know what psychological damage happened to him that it's weird to think about in the context of michael jackson
Specifically because we don't know what things happen to him. It's not an excuse for anything
Bad that he did at all, but it's the narrative around it
is so gross
If he did a bad thing many bad things and he lost his career lost
Residuals lost something because of it then I think that's valid
But coming back 10 years after his death to do a documentary called
Leaving Neverland where it's it's just trauma porn
Yeah, it's it's a different kind of disgusting
It was like they come back after X amount of years and we'll see these
Unseen photos of this or see this unseen part of this or whatever or hidden away for 15 years
It's finally being revealed. Yeah that kind of shit. That's
And that was that was I say I would say that's probably the biggest controversy that came from Leaving Neverland
That was the biggest problem that people had is why after 10 years and especially since this stuff happened in the 90s
right so
if
if it had happened
Like if they've been in the process of making it and then Michael Jackson dies, then they shelled it for a little bit
That's one thing right
but to to release this thing that is going to slam him so hard his
His life his entire legacy is going to be put to the stake
And then he's not around to defend himself. I just think that's it's disgusting bullshit. Yeah, and it's just it's a way that you can profit off
your trauma or profit off
Having people convinced that this thing is true. Yeah
And yeah, so I mean I I had a huge problem with it. I think that
A lot of it went into
territories that were unnecessary
and
Like I get that these guys maybe they need closure
Maybe they need they need to get their story out. I completely get that
But in a three-part series on HBO, I don't think that's the way to go especially after the dude's dead
I had that same
issue with quiet onset that it it just felt like the conversation was
Can you believe this thing happened while this show was going on? It was clickbait surrounding something awful. Yeah a lot of awful things
like I
if
Quiet onset specifically if that was the way that drake bell needed to get that story out have that conversation
Heal from it then by all means. Yeah
But I don't think that that was
Well intentioned
I don't think that any part of that was done for the right reasons
And I think that leaving neverland was the same thing
I think the biggest giveaway was at the end of the first episode
Or the end of the second episode because I think it was three right three parts four
Or quiet onset or four. Yeah. Anyways end of one of them
It's like oh and this story is coming up in the next episode and someone sits in a director's chair
And they're completely blacked out. Yeah, and you can't see anything and oh come back for the next episode to see who this is
Oh, it was drake bell. He got raped by this dude that was on set with him like
That felt super for gross super
Exploitative. Yeah, which so many of the people that were on either on it or were asked to be on it for quiet onset
Like they came out again at the end and we're like, this is not
This is not what we signed up for. Yeah, or this is not what they told us like mark summer. Yeah summers summers summers
And like I think that it's
It's kind of the same thread that we've been talking about that we are so
So involved in our artists personal lives
Terrible thing that you do is a terrible thing that you do. I'm not
Justifying I'm not suggesting that we sleep it under the rug, but I think that it's
So much more damaging to have that be a part of the conversation
I think it's just it's damaging to have that be a part of the conversation. Yes, that's a full stop
That like you can be held accountable for the things
But it's a a fine line that we do not walk well between holding people accountable for the things that they do and just
Wanting to be a part of the gossip
Yeah
yeah, and
What is the
What what is the penance who decides that is it the victim that should be able to decide whether
Someone is allowed to have a career again. Is it the public? I mean, it's it's obviously not the public because
No matter what happens people are still going to go. Is there going to be a drop? Yeah. Yeah, sure
A little one, but for the most part humans are creatures of habit
So if
They're in the habit of doing this thing
But then they stop because of this person doing this thing. They're going to forget about that relatively quickly
So those rules don't translate to everybody to every transgression and I get that I I do understand that not everything should be treated equally
But I feel like personally with the details that I know which
I mean some of them I've looked into some of them. I just know face value
Um
I feel like the punishment is a little excessive to completely lose your livelihood for for this mistake
I think it's
A little insufficient to call some of these things a mistake. Yeah, I think in some cases
The position that you were in
You would only have access to the the crime that you're doing because of the status that you have
That's fair. Yeah, and so it's
You can't say
Matt Lauer
You can't say that Matt Lauer saying was a mistake. He had a button installed in his office
Lock the door. How do you explain that? Once you're at a certain level of prestige?
It doesn't matter you're you don't have to give context for anything that you do
That's so great. That's that's one thing I have. I've never understood about that story
Is someone had you know matt lauer is not in there with some wire nuts and a couple screwdrivers
flipping off breakers to no so someone came in
and whether they worked for
Uh
30 rock because I'm assuming that's where it's filmed. I think so. Yeah, whether they work for the the building
Or whether it's a contractor that came in. I think you should be able to say hey, um, what am I doing this for?
Yeah, like what what is what is this going to be used for and it's the same the same mindset that uh
H. H. Holmes got away with in Chicago
Yeah, he would hire a contractor. They would build up to a certain point
He'd say hey, you suck. You're fired bring in someone new and then they'd start something else not knowing that
Individually they're all making this murder castle. Right
and so I think that the reason that we
We get into a lot get into the weeds with who can be canceled and stay canceled and who
Deserves another shot the um
It just really seems it comes down to who is the most expendable?
Like if you're replaceable
then okay, bye, and then you never hear from him again and
Then like there was a
There was a culture shift
in television that
We need more women to
be a part of
Of broadcasts and to have these jobs that a majority of
males have filled and then
So Matt Lauer's thing happened
And then all of a sudden Savannah Guthrie gets bumped up
with uh
What's her face hoda?
Yeah, and so now they're doing the today show
and
Everything's fine, but that's because the climate allowed for
Two women to host this show
But if the climate wasn't there then Matt Lauer would have been suspended for six months and then brought back
Yeah, I think the the cancellation is
Or the length of cancellation
Largely depends on what industry you were cast out of the the context around like Louis CK was that
He was in an industry that thrives on cancellation
Yeah, they thrive on being the most offensive person in the room
And so you you don't get a pass you still
Sort of face consequences, but you're able to rebound
Aziz came back
Aziz's allegations from what I understand were kind of bullshit
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say it's
But regardless he faced consequences and made his his comeback
What is he he had a show after on Netflix didn't he master of none that one got cancelled because of the allegations
Oh
What was he done since then?
He did another standout special pretty recently
I haven't watched it because he's not
My kind of standout comedian. I don't like being shouted at he used to be that's neither here nor there, but
He used to be but yeah, I don't he's not
He used to really like his standup
I don't remember what the name of the actual thing was but the one where he's like standing with the giant stuffed bear
I liked that one and yeah, yeah
Yeah, I think it's it's dependent on the industry because spacey expendable cosby
Did a bad enough thing that
No matter what industry he was in he was expendable
Have you seen the
Matlauer or not Matlauer
um spacey interview
With pierce Morgan. Yeah, huh? Not yet
Good lord. I
On principle kind of refused to watch anything else that spacey does. Yeah
because the this
Immediate, I don't know if it was an interview or just like his statement after all of that backlash
Whenever things started coming to light was
All right, you got me. I'm gay like do you think that's remotely the problem that anyone is having right now?
Dude, it's you are super missing the point here
Like do you think that that makes up for anything?
That's a jail-free card. Yeah, because it used to be I mean, I don't know if it
It used to use used to
get you in
Hotter water. Yeah, but then I think there was a a bit of a shake up in like the early 2000s where
If you got in trouble you could say oh, but I'm gay
Yeah, yeah
But spacey has always had a creep factor to him
You don't get put in a role like he's an american beauty if you don't have something about you that is just
Unsettling or John Doe and seven or John Doe and seven. Yeah, the signs were there. You ready to move on to
Robert Sylvester Kelly. I did not know that his name was Robert Sylvester Kelly, but let's go
much like Michael Jackson
I mean really we're going from
Michael Jackson was called the king of pop our Kelly was called the king of r&b. Yeah
and
Did you also know
That he went by the pipe piper that was a stage name of his
Or Kelly on brand disgusting with a z at the end. It's Kelly with the z at the end
It's like uh, callous
The milkshake's on girl
Callous yeah, thank
um, okay, so also
Very messed up childhood
Uh, he had a friend when he was eight
They were playing by a creek
The friend fell in
got swept up
and drowned
When he was eight years old was like one of his best friends
Um, he was
sexually assaulted
by a female member of the family. It's never really been confirmed, but
most people think it's
his older sister
That would babysit him. Okay from eight to 14
out
So six full years
He dropped out of school after his freshman year
In 1991 he had his first solo album
1993
Bump and grind dropped, you know bump and grind I do spent 12 weeks at number one on the r&b billboard charts
expressive
1994 married, you know who aliyah's?
married aliyah
when he was 27 and she was
15
The marriage was later annulled in 1995
1996 I believe I could fly
was released for space jam
And then that is the first time he was sued by a former partner. I'm sorry. Did you say that was released for space jam?
Yeah
It was recorded for space jam and then it was big. I mean, it's just like um
I know that wasn't the point of this but damn seal. Um kiss from arose
What was that for that man forever? What? Uh-huh kilmer carry. Huh? Yeah, it was like the
It was like the big song
I mean I
I was born after those movies came out. So
I've only ever heard them in that their own context. I didn't know those were from like written for movies
Yeah, um, I believe I can fly and kiss from arose on the grave or like my heart will go on
early 90s
comedies and action films so
1996 sued for
Emotional distress from a relationship that he had for three years
Um, she claimed stuff like pretty much what everyone else claims later on
Uh, he's trying to control what she eats where she goes who she's talking to
Uh, all the stuff. So that was in 96. He was already starting to show signs of being a little uh
Overbearing to say the least right 2001 an intern sued him
uh, coercing her into
An indecent sexual relationship is how they phrase it. She was 17 at the time 2002
Uh sued by a woman
He allegedly impregnated and forced to have an abortion and then right after that one
Uh, he was sued by a woman who accused him of making a secret sex tape of their encounter and distributed it through bootleggers
under the name
Under the title r kelly triple x
No, just just no effort whatsoever
Uh, both those cases were settled out of court. So again, we come back to I don't have figures on these
but we come back to
Does it make you look guilty? Which I mean that's
I mean he's been
Tried and found guilty. So I don't feel
Like I'm really like you have to speculate on it. Yeah
But before he had any legal trouble. He's already paying these women off. And so do you think at the time 2002
uh, do you think that um
Do you think that people felt that made him look guiltier or guilty?
Yeah, I mean, it's it always kind of feels like an admission of guilt if you are
Settling instead of fighting something. Mm-hmm. Even if you have the money to just
Not have to worry about it. Yeah
2002 was a very busy year for Robert. Uh, that's when the p-tape came out. I was also 15, wasn't she? I think so that sounds right
Super young of a problematic age
Yes
I don't know if they've ever released her name
If she was a minor at the time then I would imagine they didn't
That case took six years to go to court
Or go to trial
And he was found not guilty on all counts because they couldn't prove that the woman
In the video was a minor
Even if they could identify the girl
Yeah, I said they couldn't prove it without a shadow of a doubt that that girl was a minor
So he was just acquitted of all charges. So they just waited until she was of age and said
Hey, maybe this was taken just now
I guess I mean it's yeah took six years to go through the system for him to get in front of a jury
my god
2002 2004
um
police found a camera
that had
Lots and lots of pictures of him
With underage girls some with just underage girls some with underage girls together with other underage girls and those were taken to
the police
He was put in front of a judge again and the judge said all that was inadmissible because they didn't have the proper
reasoning to
Execute a search warrant. So even though they've seen these pictures
They're now inadmissible and they can't charge them with anything
Okay, and then
2005
Sylvester
Twan
Midgeots
Trapped in the closet
Did you know that that came out over a seven-year span?
I did from 2005 to 2012 is an
Insane anthology
It is and apparently there's a whole section that I've never heard
I was about to ask you if you'd listen to the whole thing. Have you heard the whole thing? No
God no
How long is that why you say like that? We used to listen to that all the time
That's not that's not a dig on that. It's the fact that it's the longest thing you could listen to
Uh, I looked it up and I looked it up earlier today
and it is
Oh, it's an hour and a half long. It's 91 minutes
Is that for all the parts that is
Is that all 33 chapters the big package? No, that's that's one and two
And then three is another 42 minutes
All right, so I'm not watching killers of the flowers flower moon worth of trapped in the closet
But you don't want to know what happens 43 through or 23 through 33?
Nope, I don't remember what happened in
one through 23 or 22
This chapter begins with Sylvester and Gwendolyn watching tv and getting a mysterious phone call
The scene then shifts to Kathy and Rufus who decided to go
Shopping downtown
Kathy's phone rings and she exclaims it's those people again
Rufus tells her to hang up Bridget, Tuan and most of the rest of the cast also get a mysterious phone call offering money in exchange for an unknown service
Yeah, I won't be listening to that what I will be listening to is our unproblematic king weird al's trapped in the drive-thru
What about mad tv slash
Jordan feels trapped in the cupboard. Okay. I will listen to those all day every day. I can't believe there's no onions
Oh my god, I'm glad I'm back on a weird out kick recently
I guess all he had to do was drop a drop new music video the new polka. Yeah
So 2017 it's when the cult allegations come out and
At this point
Nobody really cared about
R. Kelly. He hadn't had anything. Um, he was mostly known for the p-tape
Uh, and that was like the big running joke when you talked about R. Kelly
Um, trapped in the closet, which was described as a hip hopper
which
Incredible is excellent
Uh, did not help his case any just based on the sheer buffoonery of all of it. It's it's a classic and it needed to be made
but
it's
It's not to be taken seriously
So sex cult comes out
Uh allegations come out and then people were going to twitter with hashtag mute r. Kelly
people were
picketing his concerts
and
He at the end of his shows would say the only
Person that can mute only god can mute me which I mean
Responding to mute r. Kelly. I guess that's a good. That's a good comeback. Oh, yeah
But then 2019 comes around and surviving r. Kelly comes out which
Doesn't seem like that was five years ago
No, it does not two weeks after surviving r. Kelly comes out his label drops him
all future concerts are canceled and a video surface of him having sex with 14 year old girl
and on another note have you seen
The interview that he did with gale king is that the one where he likes sobs? Yes completely bat shit
and
Just loses his mind gets up stands behind his chair. He's yelling to gale king and
And she's just like Robert this like this is true like there is proof
And he's like
Yeah
Rough watch, but I mean he got caught like red-handed. So it's I think he knew that it was pretty much over for him
Uh, 2019 he got some prostitution charges
Solisting the minor who asked him for an autograph
Uh, she was 17 years old at the time
He offered to pay her 200 dollars to undress and dance naked in his hotel room with him
And I mean it's just I didn't know about this until I was researching all this 2020. He was attacked by another inbain
In prison really?
And his he was awaiting trial
And his attorney tried to use it as a bargaining or not a bargaining chip but a reason for getting him
Out like commute his sentence somewhere else. Yeah
Uh, 2021 he had his trial. He's found guilty of nine counts of racketeering and sex trafficking
2020 one of the witnesses to his crimes. I was going to testify against him
Uh, all of a sudden had his car set on fire later on turned out that his manager did it and admitted to it and
got prison time for it for uh,
coercing a
witness
tampering with evidence
Yeah, uh, I think it was coercing threatening or bribing a witness
along with
destruction of evidence
Um 2022 he was sentenced to 30 years
Arkali not the manager
I thought it was 20
He was I'm getting there
um
2022 he was also found guilty of sexual abuse of a child in Chicago
On six out of 13 counts and for that he was sentenced to 20 years
19 of those would be served with the 30 years. So at the same time, okay, and then just one year
After his third years is up
Is when he would serve that 20 years and then after a year he'd be out, but he's not gonna
He's not gonna make that though 31 more years. No
And so this is another case of generational trauma that's just being passed down the line because of all the
shit that he went through
friendying
Uh being molested for six years by a female family member again. We don't know who it was
but
All that stuff and then he just had to
shovel that trauma onto somebody else
I mean
Thinking of it in that context it feels dismissive that like Michael Jackson did the things that he did because he was
mistreated as a child, which I don't
I won't take away from
the mistreatment that he experienced when he was younger
but it feels
dismissive of the experiences of all of these other people who were traumatized by
Arkali or Michael Jackson
to say that like well they had a
An incredibly traumatic childhood. So that's just what happens. Yeah, I'm not saying I'm not I'm not diminishing
what they've done like
They have done some truly disgusting things they've
Their actions have and will have an effect on countless number the countless number of people
for the rest of their lives
But the only thing I'm saying is that there's a through there's
a
common denominator
Yeah
Like I'm not I'm not saying that because of this thenness
I'm saying that it's just
Interesting that they all have this thing in common. Yeah, I mean it's not even I didn't really find too much about
Woody Allen's
upbringing
because honestly
I don't get Woody Allen. All I've known about him
is the fact that he married his adopted daughter
and that
the the writers for how I met your mother
loved Annie Hall because
Ted Mosby would talk about Annie Hall all the time. I don't remember any references to any hall
They're they're plenty. I've never watched Annie Hall though. So it
Just go over my head. He's the most nominations for best original screenplay
He has four total Oscars
his
relationship with Suni
is
I don't know if he ever technically adopted her. I don't think he did she was adopted with Mia Farrow's
ex-husband Andre Previn
And then they split up and then Mia Farrow and Woody Allen got together
So I don't think that he ever
claimed to be an adoptive parent of Suni, but the fact is that
It's still disgusting on an age difference level if it's not disgusting on a relative level
Yeah, she was she was eight when they adopted her which they're guessing because
she was an orphan on the streets of Korea
and was in a
orphanage when she was adopted by Mia Farrow and Andre
Previn and whenever they came back came to the United States. She was eight and then a year later they split up
and
so now she is
nine
and
Then not too long after is when she gets with
Woody Allen. That's when he comes into the picture
I've seen a bunch of stuff where they tried to downplay it like oh well
I never really had any kind of interactions with him and it was just this and that and this and that
but
I find that very hard to believe
Yeah, and it kind of feels like the same problem is like if you're settling out of court as a sign of guilt
If you have to make those those kind of defenses like isn't there
Yeah, I feel like it means that there's something
Shady happening. Yeah the whole
The relationship between Woody Allen and Mia Farrow ended because of Sunni stuff
She found nude pictures
of Sunni
Allen's house
She was 21 at the time. So there wasn't anything like illegal about that. It's just gross. Yeah
Uh, so that happened 1992 they split up
and by the end of 1992
uh
Sunni and Woody Allen are together ended up getting married in 1997
And don't believe they have any children together
Yeah
Yeah, I don't don't think so. Yeah, this this is a this is something that threw me for a loop is that in 1992 after everything
became public
Woody Allen had to release
had to do a
release a statement
saying that
he was in love
with Sunni
Which it seems like if it's an organic relationship, you wouldn't have to scream it to the heavens that
You're in love. Are you calling out Tom Cruise right now? I mean, I'm just saying same. Also, it looks like they have two children
Okay
So yeah, all this stuff happened in 1992
2014
Woody Allen gets the Cecil B. DeMille award pretty much a lifetime achievement for movie making and
So I don't I don't know is this one gross?
Yes, does it make you feel
icky? Yeah, but is it is it on the same level as all these other people we've talked about gross, but
If it happened between consenting adults then
I think it's not
I don't know where I stand on this one. Mm-hmm. That's difficult because he was there since she was like about 10 years old
which feels
Damning wait waited 11 years
If you go into the context of waited 11 years, it's disgusting like it it's yeah, I don't know
Yeah, it is a really gross situation and I don't think that it's
anywhere near the same plane as
The other situations, but I would argue that it is still cancelable
One thing I will say is that they're still together after getting married in 1997. So if that
That means anything. Well, yeah, he groomed her
Yeah, I mean if you've had
the 11
like formative years
to
Create the person that you want to be and the person that they become is
Whatever you molded them to be 20 something years ago. Yeah, but don't you think it's that kind of person that would
Get tired and want something new pretty
quickly
I mean, I don't I don't think so if you're so much of a narcissist that you built this person
sort of in your image
Yeah, I definitely think that there's a consensus
That she has no autonomy
Yeah, like she is solely
the wife of Woody Allen
Created by Woody Allen for Woody Allen
Which I think is disgusting
And I think that that overshadows any
technically not abhorrent things about the situation
is that
She I don't know too much about her
So I won't speak to the person that she is or her identity
But it's yeah, it just seems like she was created to be one thing and it was Woody Allen's wife
Yeah, if you're raised from age nine to
to 21 but so the
The Academy of
motion picture arts whatever it's called
uh
Obviously can overlook it and give him a lifetime achievement award
Do you think that's right because I mean really that's the ultimate
separating the art from the artist
yes
I think
that in that case you can
kind of separate the art from the artist because I don't believe that
the thing that he did
was
Whether or not it's disgusting is a separate thing. I think that it's not
a thing that happened because of his position of power it was not
It feels like a separate thing that his personal life did
or he did whatever he did in his personal life versus what he did in his films
I think that makes an important distinction
Yeah
on the flip side of that something that was completely against their will and
charges were pursued and nothing really ever came of it Roman Planski
What do you know about Roman Planski?
Very little outside of the context of Sharon T.
Yeah, they were married whenever
she got murdered by the Manson family. It was pregnant with their kid
He was World War II survivor
Jewish guy in Poland
His mom went to Auschwitz for his dad went to a concentration camp but then ended up making it out
He huddred around Poland for a little bit
Then moved to France and then London and then came to
the United States
He was working on a film called the Fearless Vampire Killers
Which is a vampire parody film as how it was described
Which is weird because I always heard whenever Roman Planski
Yeah, he did this but he's just like the Rem de la Creme of
Directors and all this other stuff and to find out that he met Sharon Tate doing a
Vampire parody movie is
Yeah, that's that's surprising because what's kind of jarring
My only knowledge of him as a director is Rosemary's baby in Chinatown
Yeah, Rosemary's baby came out in 1968
Chinatown came out
In 1974 of course 1969 is when the Manson murders happened
Chinatown received 11 nominations
2002 the pianist which I remember dad renting and we watched it and I thought it was the most boring thing I've ever seen
I don't I remember watching it. I think at some point and I don't remember too much from it and
It put a real bad taste to my mouth for Adrian Brody
Until
King Kong came out and then he redeemed himself
He was in King Kong. He's the main dude
Not not King Kong the the main thank you for clarifying the only
Person I remember are you talking about the Nicole Kidman one? That's not Nicole Kidman
Naomi Watts Naomi Watts one. Yes. The only person I remember from that is Jack Black
Because apparently I thought it was Nicole Kidman
Yeah, I don't remember her wrong on both counts not on Jack Black though. I'm never wrong on Jack Black. Anyway
uh 2002 the pianist 2018 expelled from the academy with
They voted on it at the same day and he said 2018
Weinstein Bill Cosby Cosby. Oh Weinstein came later gross
So total there have been five people that have been expelled from the academy Cosby which obviously plans key
here
Was will Smith nope
10 year ban not expelled
Weinstein Cosby
A guy named Adam Kimmel
Who they found out that he had committed
Statutory rape of a minor
Oh
Yeah, so they expelled him
and
The first person to be expelled
Uh was from the godfather part two and he was also in uh in ypd blue
His name was
Carmine is I don't know if this guy's still kicking it Carmine
Karadie
C-a-r-i-d-i
And he was expelled for
So so these other four people are on this list
because they are disgusting human beings and
just
skin of the earth
Um, this guy is lumped in with them because
Uh, he was pirating
screeners that were meant for members only
Awesome great reason to get kicked out
Oh, and we haven't even talked about the the big Roman Balansky thing
In 1997
Arrested for sexual assault of a 13 year old
Uh, he drugged her and raped her. Uh, he was then dieted on six counts. He was found guilty
No five
Of the charges ended up being dropped and the only way they would drop those five is if he pled guilty to unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor
And so when it came to sentencing 42 days in prison a 90 day sycoval, but he fled to france
The day before it was all supposed to go down
He had 42 days in prison. He went to london and then
Went to france where he couldn't he wouldn't be extradited because he has a french citizenship
Oh, and he's lived there pretty much ever since what a piece of shit
So that happened in 1977 so
That was after china town after rosemary's baby after his big stuff
but in 2002 when the penis came out the
The academy showed us how they felt
by
giving him the
Uh, best director the award was accepted by Harrison Ford. Why Harrison Ford?
Because good buddies, I guess not even adrian brody the star of the movie
Nope, Harrison Ford and then what I found most shocking is that uh, he has a movie called carnage that came out in 2011
Starring jody foster john c. Riley what christoff waltz and kate winslet
Really and kate winslet said he's one of the most
extraordinary men i've ever met
This guy that drugged and raped a 13 year old and then fled the country and then fled the country and has been
there ever since
Which is another thing that we
saw in white on set is
These industry people that will come in and will vouch for you and will give you a
Will be a character witness for you
And whether they like your character or not, they're gonna say whatever they need to in order to lift you up enough to where you can at least get your
Uh punishment lowered to a minimum
Um, yeah, he was facing six
charges
And five of them were dropped
is horrifying
and he had he
He rarely speaks on it
But he did have a quote saying if i'd killed somebody
It wouldn't have had so much appeal to the press you see
But f***ing you see and the young girls judges want to f*** young girls juries want to f*** young girls
Everyone wants to f*** young girls
Say hell of a hell of a stance
And in 2019 he appealed his expulsion
and uh
They upheld it. Can you imagine if they reversed it now like in 2024?
They reversed his expulsion, but he still has all of his he still has all of his awards his academy awards
Yeah, yeah, they were revoked an academy award. I mean, I don't know how they would revoke the
Trophy, but I'm sure they could put a little last risk by their name. Yeah on the official websites
But yeah, I knew that he I was pretty sure that he won best director for the pianist
And I knew that that was after all the other stuff that happened because it was a big it was a big issue
Like people were pissed and they should have been right because he didn't face justice for what he did
And then now he's still getting all these these accolades like if if he had paid his debt justice was served
And then he came back and he was able to do this
post punishment
That would have been one thing, but that's not what happened. He just ran away and was allowed to
to just chill in france
for
30 years 40 years almost 40 years. It's uh
It feels like really bad
taste in your mouth that all these people are still willing to go to bat for someone who was so openly
a monster
And then we'll turn around and tell you
What you should be doing
Yeah, in your day-to-day life with your body
With your choices with your vote all that stuff
The same people that are just going to jump on this bandwagon because they think it's going to keep them relevant for a little bit longer
We put too much pressure on
The idea of celebrity
Yeah, I don't believe that we should hold them to
Necessarily certain moral standards
But if you have that kind of closeness where you see them as people that you're willing to look up to or
Anything kind of in that realm then
it's like if
If you see them as like friends like if you saw
um
Kevin Spacey idolized his life
Saw the things that he did as
Someone that you would want to to model yourself after and you find out all these terrible things happen then
I think you have a responsibility to
Do what you would do if it were an actual friend of yours that did something like that
Cut them out
Get some kind of distance get some kind of consequence. I don't know it's
There's a lot of great area not with Roman Plansky that man is a monster, but
Yeah, and I think that's why he is such a prime example
Of art versus the artist
Because I mean, I don't know if I've ever seen rosemary's baby
I haven't seen anything of his besides rosemary's baby
I mean, I've heard good things about Chinatown and there's also I mean that stars jack Nicholson and that also has its own host of
issues for instance
Roman Plansky met this girl in 1977 while he was doing a photo shoot at jack Nicholson's pool
Really?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you have anything else you wanted to
Get into on this one? Oh, yeah. No, I'm
Do you think there is a statute of limitations when it comes to canceling a piece of art?
So
Take
Johnny Depp, okay, for example, so
There's a lot of gray area also when it comes to
Canceling Johnny Depp. I know he was kicked out of Pire to the Caribbean. There was
A whole lot of
Fallout begged him to come back. Yeah, there was a lot of fallout when it came to the defamation case with amber herd amber turd
but
if you
believe that Johnny Depp should be cancelled for
that situation
Is there a statute of limitations where it would be acceptable to
enjoy their art again?
like if you
Don't support Johnny Depp or the things that he did
Would it be a certain amount of time?
When you would be able to kind of separate the art from the artist or would it just be kind of forever tainted?
No, I think if I had a problem with Johnny Depp, I don't think I don't know
That's a difficult one because because you don't think he deserved to be cancelled in the first place
Yeah
Yeah, I do. I think he did some shitty things. Yeah. Do I think she also did?
So some shitty things
Yes, but I mean and part of it could be the fact that I was already biased going into the the whole trial
Like I watched the whole thing. I watched
a youtube commentary on on all of it and kept up to date with it and I think I was
Uh, probably biased because a lot of
Johnny Depp stuff is a lot of my childhood
Yeah, okay. Do you know who army hammer is?
Yeah
What about switching it to him? He's not a part of anyone's childhood. He's not any kind of install just and
lone ranger
So there's a Johnny Depp guy and
yeah
This was just weird
Because he was like the the sending messages about like cutting off pieces of people needing them, right? Yeah
Uh, he was also incredibly abusive and controlling. There were people that came out that were in relationships with him that came out with all kinds of things
I believe whenever all of that
Cannibalism stuff kind of hit the fan
I don't know
because I think that
To a certain extent people are going to like people
Can just have a very controlling domineering
personality
Um, that's usually a lot of like
upper management leader type people
So I I guess I don't know because that stuff didn't come out until after all the weird shit with the
The eating people stuff came out. Yeah
So was it just people trying to pile on like they were fine with it until they saw an opportunity to
maybe cash in maybe
Get their name in an article
who knows and that's that's the
The sucky part about all of it is that again people there's so many people that
Stand to make a whole lot of money going one way or going the other way. Yeah
and so
You have a you can't have a hard time trying to sift through all of it to figure out
Where the actual truth is it's usually usually somewhere in the middle
like people have their intentions
And they're going to be way on this side the people who have
Obsident intentions are going to be way on this side and the truth of what actually happens going to be right there
Somewhere in the middle
And is it going to be leaning one way or the other? It could could it be leaning a lot towards one?
Yeah, but then there's enough stuff going the other way that
There's gray area and as far as the as far as the domineering and the
And the trying to control whoever
Goes if it had come out before all the other stuff came out
If it had come out as its own thing then I feel like it would hold a lot more weight than
Oh, look at this shit that army hammer did and then oh, but then he also did this. Yeah
That's fair and then it also got turned into another
Trauma porn documentary on HBO. Mm-hmm. Do you ever watch that one? I didn't know the house of hammer
No, because I don't really care
I do is
What's his relationship to arm and hammer?
Uh, someone got sued over
Over names. I'm sure of it. I mean his name is literally arm and
Armand hammer
Also, I don't know if it would have been a better example than army hammer, but I feel like it would have been
Then that conversation could also happen around dan schneider because that one's one of the ones that hits a little bit closer to home for me
Because I was raised on all the dan schneider shows. I watched I carly growing up dragan josh, obviously victorious
yeah
and it's
That one's a little bit harder in retrospect just because
It's not
It's it's kind of like the cosby thing
that you see
the people who are victims of
The person
Yeah, like
Yeah, they might get profit off of it, but you see them living probably the worst times of their life
And it makes it just
I think it just kind of burns the whole thing
Like you can't really watch dragan josh now because no matter what you're watching you still kind of see it as
What drake was going through behind the scenes. Yeah
Yeah, and I think that with the dan schneider stuff so many other people were culpable
Like so many other people were to blame on top of dan schneider. Yeah, that that makes it even grosser
And not just dan schneider, but brian peck too. Yeah, like everyone just and it sucks
to
see drake's dad
Go through everything that he went through trying to tell everyone. Hey, there's something up with this guy being the one person
That actually tried to vouch for his child being right the whole time and no one doing anything about it
Yeah
And then to find out that the person that assaulted his son is the one that he was warning everybody about
So how are we feeling about art versus the artist? How did you go into it?
I went into it so I
I think part of being gen Z is being so kind of in tune with the cancel culture
And so it's
Easy
to say
That you can't really separate the art from the artist because these people are still
Profiting off of the thing that they made
I think the the nuances lie in
When you are
Using the position of power that you have to do these terrible things
or
When you have
Like just done something so egregious that you should be cancelled as a human being
That you should just be
No longer relevant to the conversation
in any context
because especially with
Not especially but with celebrity like you
Profit off the fact that you're part of the conversation
Yeah, and I think that the best kind of consequence that you can have for something like that is to
Burn your name to the ground. No one is going to think of Cosby for anything
Besides the horrible things he did
For the rest of time like there is
Okay, and putting pops and he is another one that we should have added to our list of easy
Impressions
That's fair
I don't think you're allowed to do yeah, I mean cosby impressions anymore
I mean anytime you hear cosby from now
Forward I mean you can probably guarantee it's going to be an impressionist
Yeah
but it's uh
I think that there's still nuance to it, but I think there's less nuance than I thought there was
Okay, yeah, that's fair
I think that some people
Deserve to be cast out they don't deserve a platform
it's
Personally speaking really annoying whenever celebrities use their platform for political means
because I think that's just
a separate thing
But at the same time like
I don't really use social media
So if I were to use social media and I wanted my opinions known on politics or whatever then
Like more power to me
Anyway that is that's all I got on art versus the artist
Final thoughts
Hmm, I don't know I went into it on the fence. Um
I do think there's a difference between
I do think it's a lot easier to separate the art from the artist if the artist is dead
So like Michael Jackson if there's no more artist
Yeah, that that stuff he did was still bad
But now
Like for future generations this
Music is just going to stand on its own right?
It's not going to have the association like at some point. It's just going to be a song that's sung by some guy
and then it's going to be a
That's going to be a factoid. Hey, did you know this about this song because there's stuff like that now
Songs that you listen to that are from 50 60 years ago
Yeah, and I mean it was different story then because there's not stuff all over the internet. You don't get
your news blasted at your face 24 7
So that's going to be different but I do think that
At one point at some point the
The artist is
Is no longer relevant to the art if it's art that is still
in the public consciousness
So as long as they're not
actively reaping the rewards of the piece that they made
Then it would be
Acceptable to enjoy it again
I think so without
Having to think about the context of it
Yeah
but I mean
a lot of the context of things are
Because I mean Michael Jackson stuff not so much because he didn't write the music
or the lyrics
so his stuff might have been something like a
A cultural
Shift not so much a personal shift. So I think that
His stuff
Yeah, I do think that that there's a big difference when they're no longer
reaping the benefits of what they've created and no longer able to profit
non-monetarily off of the status that this piece of art has given them. Yeah, I mean
The status I feel like in a lot of these cases get stripped pretty immediately. Yeah
But I mean there's there's people that still say all those kids are lying
everything it's I mean it's they bring race they bring
Just trauma and whatever they need to twist it and contort it to say well, hey this there's this didn't happen
This doesn't make any sense. Yeah, just because of how they feel about the art
Not necessarily about the person
you
When I watched quite on set
It was it was a hard thing for me to watch because those were all of the things that I grew up with
I didn't want any of that stuff to be true and to change the conversation about things that I enjoyed growing at
And so I think that it's not
necessarily invalid to have those feelings to
Want the things that were fundamental to you growing up to be untainted
But I do think it is
Not something that we can do
It's not a mentality that we can have anymore because we have access to all of the information all of the time
That like you can't you can't really bury your head in the sand on anything anymore
So what you're saying is the internet ruined everything and on that note. I hope you're using the internet to listen to this
So if it did one good thing, it's it brought cash exchange to your earhole
This is our contribution to the internet ruining everything. Yeah, peace out girl scouts and uh, how the day you deserve
You