WEBVTT

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lost in the fog of a cosmic storm floating on

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whimsical wavelengths is the norm dancing through

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the stars chasing spectrums of light riding the

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waves that are just out Welcome back. I love

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doing this podcast because I learn new things

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every single time. The fascinating universe we

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live in and today is going to be into something

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pretty obscure. Before you groan and suggest

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every episode is about something obscure, well,

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maybe you have a point. But no matter, the angle

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of understanding the obscure can have very clear

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impacts on how we understand the world. Okay,

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to get to it. This is another trip to entomology,

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looking at insects. In this case, a specific

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group is called the twisted -winged parasites

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in the common parlance of people, if that ever

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comes up, or its name, group and order name,

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Strepsistra. It's a relatively small group by

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insect standards, with around only 650 species

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described, and of those, 43 we actually only

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know from the fossil record, because they got

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trapped in amber specifically. Now for a bit

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of a detour, but an apt one. Aliens the movie.

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The aliens were designed off of parasitic wasps,

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where they have the young burst out of the insect

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that they've been parasitized. But these wasps

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have some visceral similarities to strepsistra,

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or twisted -winged parasites. See, it's a parasitoid,

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an organism that spends a significant portion

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of its life attached to or inside a single host,

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which eventually either kills or sterilizes the

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host. I think most of us find the movie Alien

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terrifying, or at the very least disturbing.

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But for millions of insects on Earth, that movie

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could be a documentary. In my background for

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the episode, Strepsistora was also referred to

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as an endoparasite. More broadly, that means

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that they live inside a host body, like their

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intestinal tract and tissues or blood, deriving

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nutrients while causing harm, such as malnutrition,

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diarrhea, or severe infection. The other term

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above, parasitoid, is a subset of something more

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extreme. Just to clear it up now, these little

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guys, Strepsistora, do not infect humans. but

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there are others that do like tapeworms the malaria

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parasite and a whole bunch more we don't need

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to talk about today strepsistra only infects

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insects generally living in their abdominal cavity

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from evolution to how they accomplish this It

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is just incredibly strange from a mammalian point

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of view. And more importantly, these little insects

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have big shoes to fill scientifically. Understanding

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their evolution has been complicated, from their

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lineage to their DNA. Understanding them used

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to have a moniker, the Strepsistora problem.

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What is the closest group that shares a closest

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common ancestor? What was it? Is it? It's a problem.

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we will discover the answer to here on the episode.

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But it has been a very contentious problem within

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academia. They are also a help to us humans as

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they parasitize many insects that we call pests

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and are super important for the food web. These

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little aliens might be the reason your local

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farmer doesn't have to spray as much pesticide

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on our food. There is one more technical term

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to mention, which is behavioral hijacking, which

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is, at least to me, brings up the idea of zombification,

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basically getting the host to do something they

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wouldn't do otherwise. Before checking your own

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skin, breathe. Humans do not have parasitoids.

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We're too big, too complex, and our immune systems

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are too loud. Insect immune systems, on the other

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hand, are much simpler. Of course, I could not

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attempt this topic much further than this intro

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without a guest. Okay, please welcome here to

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Whimsical Waves Lengths, Dr. Rebecca Jean Millena,

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who is currently a postdoctoral fellow in biology

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department of the University of Rochester with

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the TropBio Lab and obtained her PhD from the

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Comparative Biology PhD program at the American

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Museum of Natural History's Richard Gilder Graduate

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School with the WARE Lab. Yay! So, well, the

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first question is always often, at least here

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on Whimsical Wavelengths, is how did you begin

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your or how did you get into your specific STEM

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field, science field? Because it's quite varied.

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And I think listeners should realize that not

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everyone is just born a scientist. Some of us

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discover it early. Some of us discover it late

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and discover there's distinctive fields only

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after getting to university. Which were you?

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Sure. So I was one of the lucky ones who was

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kind of born. My parents like to joke that I

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was born without a sense of survival, a good

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sense of survival, because I even when I was

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little, I would just pick things up that were

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crawling on the ground because I thought they

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were exciting. So I have been obsessed with bugs

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since I was quite small. And it worked out really

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well that. My parents, instead of getting really

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freaked out about it and kind of banning me from

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picking stuff up, they instead bought me books

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so that I could be informed about it and pick

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stuff up safely. So that encouraged my love throughout

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the years, and I got lucky in that entomology

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is a profession that I could aspire to. So I

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kind of was the token bug kid all throughout

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grade school years, and it just compounded. Well,

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it sounds like your parents did a pretty good

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job. I mean, we as a parent nowadays and myself,

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we went through little monsters. It's always

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like trying to give them the tools so they don't

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kill themselves. Yeah, I think that's precisely

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what happened. So I'm very grateful. There was

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a time, though, where my first pet kind of officially

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was a tarantula, a gift from a family friend,

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and it did get loose. And then I was banned from.

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having tarantulas in the house. So there was

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a balance. But you had lots of bugs in the house

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at one point, I would imagine. Oh, yes. Yeah.

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Well, it kind of moved to the backyard. So instead

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of having tarantulas, I ended up staying smaller

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and staying local. So there were a lot of box

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elder bugs from a tree in our neighbor's yard

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that would make their way into our yard. So I

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kind of... grew a colony of those in a recycling

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bin for a long time my sister and I called them

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tappers and then the same with ladybugs I would

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just kind of keep colonies of things okay so

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I'm going to come back to that colony yeah because

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I think I have a question with that colony of

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bugs and our current subject today so in the

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intro I tried to set the stage if you will but

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I want to hear it in your own words who is the

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subject of your PhD research and the episode

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today. Yes, so my favorite bug, my favorite insect

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and the thing I have essentially dedicated my

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life, hopefully, to studying is Strepsiptera.

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The common name of this group is the twisted

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wing parasites. So Strepsiptera means twisted

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wing, and that's the Latin name for the order.

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And they comprise something like 650 or so species

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of really bizarre little twisted wing parasites.

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Is 650 a large number or a small number? It's

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quite small. So relative to other insect groups,

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if you think of things like beetles, which incidentally,

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maybe this is a spoiler, you can cut this out.

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No, no, no, we're going to keep it. We can re

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-enter every which way. This is the messy part

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of science and discussions. Excellent. So in

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regards to size, when you think of Strepsiftera's

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closest relatives, which are beetles, the consensus

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is that they're derived from or most closely

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related to beetles. Beetles are an order of something

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like almost 400 ,000 species. So when you think

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of Strepsiftera having 650, you can see why.

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I might think it's a tiny order. Right. Okay,

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so... It's very fun. What makes them unique or

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special, though? Like, you've dedicated your

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life to them. There must be something about them.

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Many, many things. Stroke Sifter is fascinating.

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You almost asked me, like, how much time do we

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have? Yeah, I could probably talk about them

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for many hours. There are just so many facets

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of them that... I can't believe are real. I don't

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know. They're stranger than fiction. Fiction

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is stranger than fact in this case. They have

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such a distinct look. They're very iconic, at

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least the males, because they have these raspberry

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-looking eyes. Insects have compound eyes, but

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with Strepsiptera, they have even more... They

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look like raspberries. They're described as berry

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eyes a lot of the time. And then the thing they

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have that kind of no other insect does are the

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twisted wings that they're named for. Their four

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wings are kind of these club -like structures

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in the males. And the closest thing that they

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look like, or the closest thing to them in other

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insects, are fly hind wings. So for a very long

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time, people thought they were related to flies.

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And they have fan -like... strepsipterans have

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fan -like hind wings which is also very unique

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in that the whole group has that the biggest

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thing that they're known for and that is kind

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of sensational is the sexual dimorphism so the

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males and females look very different that's

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what dimorphism means the males are that iconic

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kind of insect that i just described but the

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females are basically worms And they live and

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die within their host. So both of the male and

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female strep septum, they both develop within

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another insect, which is what makes them endoparasites

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or parasites of other insects. But the male will

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eventually be able to fly out of its host, whereas

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the female stays there forever. So many questions.

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Yes, of course. Let's start with... the male,

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when it flies out, let's skip everything, all

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the other questions, because you just focused

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on that one little bit. When it flies out, does

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it also kill the host, or does it somehow survive?

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So the host can stay alive for quite a while

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afterward. There's actually ongoing research

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with this happening in multiple facets, but something

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that's very fun is that my current lab has a

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couple different projects running on survival,

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and this is possible just to... Plug how incredible

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my current lab is. We have lab stock of strep

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sifterans, which is something that is very difficult

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to do because you have to be able to rear their

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hosts as well as the parasites. So you need to

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know two different life cycles and how to keep

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them alive. So I'm stoked every day at this existing,

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this system. But yeah, we find that the hosts

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do stay alive. for a while after the males emerge.

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And anecdotally, I've also seen the same thing

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with a couple other species. When the male has

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left, the host still lives for what sometimes

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I think is the natural life cycle. And there's

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also a chance that they might die on chance prematurely

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because of infection that might come in through

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the wound that the parasite has left. So when

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I was doing my background research for this,

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the movie Aliens came up. Ah, yes. I realize

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it's not the, what is the word, the muse or the

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inspiration behind them. Those were the jeweled

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wasps, I think. But nevertheless, this is like

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some have termed it the alien model. Yes. So

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there's lots of these and they don't infect humans,

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right? They do not infect humans. I know. I love

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thinking about that. I have given actually a

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couple talks about the parallels between xenomorphs

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and strepsipterans. So last year in 2025 at the

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Museum of the Moving Image in Brooklyn, New York,

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they held an event called Creature Feature, the

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Science of Monster Movies and Community Filmmaking.

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And the screening that they showed that afternoon

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was alien. And I got to give a half hour -ish

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long talk about how xenomorphs can be seen in

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real life, like in nature, and how those mechanisms

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exist already. We don't have to look into space

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to find them. They're already here. And I took

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the opportunity to kind of hijack it and use

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it as a way to brag about Streps sceptera. So

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it's perfectly on the nose. They are really good

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explanations for each other. okay so just to

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kind of go down the life cycle a little bit more

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yeah um let's pretend we already have a male

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and female the male first so like a xenomorph

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jumping out of a human's chest which is visceral

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and scary it has these raspberry cute eyes and

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these twisted wings and it flies around and what

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does it do just kind of go hey there's another

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ant i'm gonna go pester it and hope there's a

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female inside of it like how this isn't like

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You know, it's not a cricket. It's not making

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noise. What's going on? Yeah, that's a great

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question and something that is very fun to answer

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because it turns out they have really good sense

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of smells, basically. Senses of smell. They have

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a ton of sensory organs kind of concentrated

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in their antennae, but also on their legs and

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a lot of sensory hairs. they can smell the female

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essentially with pheromones so she puts out a

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really strong chemical signal and the male can

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pick up on it wait so let's go back to my idea

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or my example they can infect ants right yes

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but actually it's fun you bring that up because

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only the male infects ants and then the female

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of the same species that infects ants the female

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is found in crickets katydids and other orthopteroids

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okay so the female do not infect insects that

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live in a hive so there are many other species

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that are best known actually for infecting insects

00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:52.639
that live in hives but they're in a different

00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.120
family right i meant specifically these ones

00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:59.179
because i was curious because if You're females

00:15:59.179 --> 00:16:01.240
producing all these pheromones that smell to

00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:04.000
get the male. And yet that ant then walks back

00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:06.159
into the nest. They should smell like the female.

00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:11.600
That's where I was going. Oh, I see. So the male

00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:14.820
has left the ant. No, I know. But you just answered

00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:17.120
the fact that the females don't infect the ant.

00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:25.039
Oh, yes. Yes. We'll get to that. host i guess

00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.639
in a moment we don't even know okay so yeah somehow

00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.379
the female produces pheromones outside of the

00:16:33.379 --> 00:16:37.240
insect that she's living inside yes okay so something

00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.320
i didn't mention thank you for asking this for

00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:41.639
clarification something i did not mention is

00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:46.500
that the the fun thing about strep sceptera um

00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:50.200
is that they protrude a little bit from their

00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:56.269
hosts upon maturity yeah yeah so i'm glad you

00:16:56.269 --> 00:16:58.710
asked that because i kind of take it for granted

00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:00.929
that it's just like a tumor that sits on their

00:17:00.929 --> 00:17:04.670
belly yep yep yeah that's that's almost exactly

00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:07.789
what it looks like there's just a lump in between

00:17:07.789 --> 00:17:13.750
the host insects segments basically and for the

00:17:13.750 --> 00:17:17.950
female which stays there that's her head her

00:17:17.950 --> 00:17:20.430
head is just kind of a little bit outside of

00:17:20.430 --> 00:17:24.359
the host And she can emit pheromones that way.

00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:28.539
Wow. Yep. Does she also breathe that way or does

00:17:28.539 --> 00:17:31.859
she breathe from inside the insect? For a large

00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:33.940
part of the development, the female is getting

00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:36.680
oxygen from the circulatory system of its host.

00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:41.599
So I believe that actually does not change. I

00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.900
don't think they have spiracles on their cephalothorax,

00:17:44.019 --> 00:17:48.539
but I could be wrong. Neat. Yeah. So they have

00:17:48.539 --> 00:17:51.309
a whole separate way of... breathing than most

00:17:51.309 --> 00:17:53.670
other insects because they're living inside an

00:17:53.670 --> 00:17:57.170
insect yeah but yet the males still must be able

00:17:57.170 --> 00:18:00.849
to breathe like other insects do yes upon maturity

00:18:00.849 --> 00:18:06.170
so while he's within the host insect it's the

00:18:06.170 --> 00:18:08.910
same kind of system as the females but as soon

00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:11.509
as he pupates and emerges he has to be able to

00:18:11.509 --> 00:18:14.190
breathe on his own okay so he finds the insect

00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:17.549
or he finds the female attracted in by the smell

00:18:17.549 --> 00:18:22.329
and uh the other insect just goes hey yeah let

00:18:22.329 --> 00:18:25.589
me present my abdomen to you the female bursts

00:18:25.589 --> 00:18:31.990
out like how does this all work so yeah so the

00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:37.369
female is at that point as emerged as she can

00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:41.250
be her head is probably the furthest out that

00:18:41.250 --> 00:18:43.630
it ever will be in her life because she's calling

00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:47.269
for a male she's sending out pheromones the host

00:18:47.269 --> 00:18:51.069
insect depending on what it is, may or may not

00:18:51.069 --> 00:18:56.829
have been influenced to be somewhere or stay

00:18:56.829 --> 00:19:03.009
alive for a certain timing to optimize this encounter.

00:19:03.430 --> 00:19:08.809
So if it was a hive insect initially, with the

00:19:08.809 --> 00:19:11.890
parasite developing within it, it is now not

00:19:11.890 --> 00:19:16.029
acting like a hive insect. It'll act like a...

00:19:16.029 --> 00:19:21.279
perhaps. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, they won't

00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.240
necessarily participate in the same kind of nest

00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:28.980
activities, which is very fun. And they will

00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:33.140
still, though, video anecdotal evidence given,

00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:39.359
the host will still try to kick off the male

00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.359
sometimes. Like, it doesn't necessarily like

00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:45.259
something else tiny buzzing around its abdomen.

00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:50.319
Right. So there is still risk that the male will

00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:54.480
get fended off from the female by the host. But

00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.000
the males are actually very zippy. So they're

00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.339
very quick and agile. And I like watching videos

00:20:00.339 --> 00:20:03.440
of them trying to get at females because it's

00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.019
really interesting. Okay, so they managed to

00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:10.359
find a female. They impart their genetic material

00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:14.839
through the head that is extruded through the

00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:20.079
abdomen. yes and then the male goes off and dies

00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:25.299
yes precisely the uh a fun thing that i would

00:20:25.299 --> 00:20:27.700
like to mention about the imparting of genetic

00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:31.279
material that can happen through something called

00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:37.259
traumatic insemination where the male just sticks

00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:42.539
his genitalia anywhere in the female interesting

00:20:43.169 --> 00:20:45.890
Yes. And how does the genetic material get to

00:20:45.890 --> 00:20:48.849
where it needs to go? It goes through her hemocyle,

00:20:48.970 --> 00:20:51.490
her blood, essentially, and then it just makes

00:20:51.490 --> 00:20:55.670
its way to the eggs. Is that a common occurrence

00:20:55.670 --> 00:20:59.369
in the animal kingdom? Or is there anyone else

00:20:59.369 --> 00:21:02.750
that does it? Yes, in fact, yeah. Bed bugs are

00:21:02.750 --> 00:21:05.549
well known for it. Oh, gross. I know. They're

00:21:05.549 --> 00:21:10.509
nasty. Oh my goodness. And now you know. Now

00:21:10.509 --> 00:21:14.500
I know. Okay, so. The male goes off and either

00:21:14.500 --> 00:21:17.559
mates with another one or doesn't and dies. And

00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:22.460
now the, like, surely the female ends up killing

00:21:22.460 --> 00:21:24.500
their host because now they have to rear a whole

00:21:24.500 --> 00:21:27.799
bunch of eggs too, right? The host is still alive.

00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:30.920
At this point. But then what happens to, which

00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:32.720
I assume because it's an insect that lays eggs.

00:21:33.859 --> 00:21:40.279
So they do something called oviviparity where

00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:44.009
the eggs essentially hatch. inside the female

00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:50.369
and she becomes a bag of larvae so she is the

00:21:50.369 --> 00:21:55.430
host for her parasitic young yes so that is called

00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.970
also technically matrophagy or eating mother

00:21:58.970 --> 00:22:03.630
where the mother is entirely consumed at least

00:22:03.630 --> 00:22:07.450
in this case resource wise by her larvae and

00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:10.569
she isn't actively laying actually they're just

00:22:10.569 --> 00:22:14.680
crawling out of her head Wow. And she survives

00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:19.019
this? Yeah. She keeps pumping out approximately

00:22:19.019 --> 00:22:23.640
hundreds of thousands, like 750 ,000 is one of

00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:29.960
the recorded numbers in literature. How would

00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.779
you even measure that? That's a great question.

00:22:35.299 --> 00:22:39.200
You don't know the answer to that? No, I've tried.

00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:43.900
I have. collected a gravid or pregnant female

00:22:43.900 --> 00:22:46.980
before and i did sit for a very long time just

00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:49.000
watching the larvae crawl out of her because

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.099
it was fascinating that was the first time that

00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:54.539
i've been able to witness it and over the course

00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:58.119
of even just a couple hours i could not keep

00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:02.940
count there were hundreds okay um so going back

00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:05.579
to your bug collection did you ever find one

00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:09.359
of these in your bug collection yes so as a kid

00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:15.079
growing up you Oh, no, I did not know. So I actually,

00:23:15.220 --> 00:23:18.500
that's a great question because it leads back

00:23:18.500 --> 00:23:21.339
into kind of what brought me on this journey.

00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:25.819
I'd always been obsessed with bugs, but the way

00:23:25.819 --> 00:23:29.299
I was introduced to parasites specifically was

00:23:29.299 --> 00:23:33.220
at UC Davis, my alma mater for undergrad. I was

00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:36.319
impatient to start taking entomology classes.

00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.119
So as a freshman, even though I couldn't take

00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.440
uh my upper div entomology courses yet i enrolled

00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:46.180
in a general ed entomology course taught by the

00:23:46.180 --> 00:23:48.680
grad students where every week was a different

00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.859
topic and jessica gilling who at the time was

00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:58.220
a ta she specializes in parasitoid wasps and

00:23:58.220 --> 00:24:02.819
watching her lecture was the most excited i had

00:24:02.819 --> 00:24:06.359
felt in a very long time about insects. I was

00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.339
always excited about them, but that one kind

00:24:08.339 --> 00:24:11.940
of was like a lightning strike about how cool

00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:15.039
they were. So I ended up doing my final project

00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.079
for that class on parasitoid wasps. And then

00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:21.079
every other entomology course I took after that,

00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.039
that had a field component or a final project

00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:27.500
component, I did on parasites. Okay. But you

00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:31.980
didn't find them in your insect menagerie, if

00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:34.559
you will. Okay, well, I think we're going to

00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.920
learn a lot more about Strepsiptera. We're going

00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:40.440
to learn a lot more, but I think it's time we

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:45.019
now introduce the paper. And in full, just being

00:24:45.019 --> 00:24:47.400
open in episodes that weave together the past,

00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:49.859
the present, the future, I struggle to keep the

00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:51.660
episode length down, especially when I know so

00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:55.119
little about a topic and I'm already asking way

00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.460
more questions than I had planned. And I had

00:24:57.460 --> 00:25:00.440
a sense that was going to be the case, but it's

00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.700
also a terrible segue to say that the papers...

00:25:03.289 --> 00:25:06.950
title, Strepsiptera's Systematics, Past, Present,

00:25:07.089 --> 00:25:11.089
and Future. I guess let's start with the past.

00:25:11.450 --> 00:25:14.130
What makes this group, in the words of the paper,

00:25:14.269 --> 00:25:18.390
among the most obscure and enigmatic orders?

00:25:18.549 --> 00:25:19.750
I mean, we've already talked about why it's so

00:25:19.750 --> 00:25:23.750
cool and special, but why is it so obscure? Yeah,

00:25:23.769 --> 00:25:29.099
so Strepsiptera as an order wasn't recognized

00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:32.920
as such until 1813 by this entomologist William

00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:37.799
Kirby. Before then, no one really knew what it

00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:42.579
was. It was grouped with Hymenoptera, which is

00:25:42.579 --> 00:25:44.940
the order of bees, wasps, and ants, the first

00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:49.000
time it was ever seen in, I think, 1700s, late

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:54.180
1700s. And after it was seen, people didn't really

00:25:54.180 --> 00:25:57.460
know where to place it because Before DNA data

00:25:57.460 --> 00:26:00.960
was available or even recognized as a thing that

00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.019
existed, we all had to depend on what things

00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:06.740
looked like in order to group and name them.

00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:10.480
So strep sceptera, as you can imagine, look pretty

00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:14.940
bizarre. Not to mention the fact that the males

00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:19.180
and females look the way they are. So you can

00:26:19.180 --> 00:26:21.960
kind of imagine also that it was very difficult

00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.069
to figure out where they belonged in the... the

00:26:25.069 --> 00:26:28.210
tree of life that was forming at the time. But

00:26:28.210 --> 00:26:30.890
was it an obscure thing because they didn't know

00:26:30.890 --> 00:26:32.549
where to put it or because they were so hard

00:26:32.549 --> 00:26:36.549
to find? Both. Definitely both. So those are

00:26:36.549 --> 00:26:41.410
the two big kind of famous obstacles to studying

00:26:41.410 --> 00:26:44.609
strep sceptera in general. It's hard to describe

00:26:44.609 --> 00:26:48.430
something that you can't find much of. And yeah,

00:26:48.529 --> 00:26:51.329
they're tiny too. Was there a difference in age

00:26:51.329 --> 00:26:53.269
about when the males were discovered versus the

00:26:53.269 --> 00:26:56.049
females? That's a great question and something

00:26:56.049 --> 00:26:58.490
I don't have off the top of my head, but I'm

00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:01.930
pretty sure that... Yeah, I don't actually know

00:27:01.930 --> 00:27:06.250
that in specific. That's a great question. I

00:27:06.250 --> 00:27:09.470
mean, it is known for the myrmecal acids, the

00:27:09.470 --> 00:27:11.769
ones where the males infect ants and the females

00:27:11.769 --> 00:27:16.250
infect katydids, crickets, mantises. Those ones...

00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:20.690
There was a 94 year gap in between the description

00:27:20.690 --> 00:27:23.950
of the species versus the reunion of the male

00:27:23.950 --> 00:27:29.150
and female, at least in our taxonomy. But regarding

00:27:29.150 --> 00:27:32.410
not the whole order, but the separation of the

00:27:32.410 --> 00:27:36.710
sexes as an order, I will look into that because

00:27:36.710 --> 00:27:39.710
now I also want to know. Well, if you give it

00:27:39.710 --> 00:27:43.490
to me before I get around to recording the intro,

00:27:43.630 --> 00:27:46.380
I'll add it there. Okay, that would be awesome.

00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:49.279
Yeah, I'll double check because that's a really

00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:51.420
great question. I've only ever looked into the

00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:54.420
history of the order as a whole in taxonomy.

00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:57.319
Just to go a little further, I mean, in my background,

00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.440
it seems to be that some species are only known

00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:01.359
from the males or only known from the females.

00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:04.099
So we still haven't merged some species, male

00:28:04.099 --> 00:28:09.180
and female. Yes, a great many. It's crazy to

00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:11.480
think about it. yeah we found a lot of the males

00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:13.220
but we have never found the females and we found

00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:15.960
a few females over here because we dissected

00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:18.500
this creature and found them but we have never

00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:22.319
seen the males you're like wow you know it just

00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.319
goes to show that there's so much more we can

00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:26.539
learn and understand that we just don't know

00:28:26.539 --> 00:28:28.059
about the natural world around us i mean we're

00:28:28.059 --> 00:28:31.539
still finding uh new species and stuff too oh

00:28:31.539 --> 00:28:35.099
100 every day every day every single day but

00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:37.740
i think we're also kind of dancing around what

00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:41.720
the next question is because um i read this in

00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:44.160
multiple papers in the in the background here

00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:46.000
especially the older ones not so much the newer

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.680
ones the past understanding it was also given

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:54.359
the strip sister problem and i'm sorry if i automatically

00:28:54.359 --> 00:29:00.480
very all right yeah i've mentioned i mentioned

00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.779
earlier that strip sifter was so infamous and

00:29:04.779 --> 00:29:06.839
it was difficult to tell like what it was grouped

00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:12.259
with and that was given its own name as you mentioned

00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:16.000
the strepsiptera problem is the title given to

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.819
this dilemma of not knowing what they were the

00:29:19.819 --> 00:29:24.980
problem itself was the question what is the sister

00:29:24.980 --> 00:29:28.759
group to this species or to these to these animals

00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:32.460
these weird little parasites what did they arise

00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:36.859
from evolutionarily and it was a problem because

00:29:36.859 --> 00:29:42.759
there were just no good consensus did anyone

00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:46.779
just throw their hands up and go aliens honestly

00:29:46.779 --> 00:29:51.880
yes yeah there were some it's very funny looking

00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:55.019
at very old or not very old but the past literature

00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:58.900
um i guess it is very old because it's been like

00:29:58.900 --> 00:30:02.579
200 years since some of them all right Not quite

00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:05.460
200, you know. Yeah. More than 150 years for

00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:07.079
some of them. Well, you got to remember that

00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:10.119
my modern day science, geology, geophysics really

00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.940
only got going in the 60s. So. Oh, that's fascinating

00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:18.259
to me because I would think that it's been around

00:30:18.259 --> 00:30:22.359
forever, you know. So like. Yeah. But when you

00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:25.900
don't understand, can't map the seafloor to see

00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:28.700
plate tectonics and you can't measure the age

00:30:28.700 --> 00:30:31.930
of the Earth until you understand atomic. uh

00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:35.410
decay that's a really good point this is cool

00:30:35.410 --> 00:30:37.609
because yeah it's the same kind of thing where

00:30:37.609 --> 00:30:39.650
i don't know as much about the physical sciences

00:30:39.650 --> 00:30:42.170
so hearing about this and those logistics are

00:30:42.170 --> 00:30:45.309
really interesting yeah so in this particular

00:30:45.309 --> 00:30:47.630
case though we're going back to the topic before

00:30:47.630 --> 00:30:49.990
we get completely derailed into a yeah understandable

00:30:49.990 --> 00:30:54.710
about geology and geophysics um so people didn't

00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.059
have a good idea of what these things were or

00:30:57.059 --> 00:30:59.380
how to put them in the tree of life. And I gather

00:30:59.380 --> 00:31:01.400
this all comes down to the theory of evolution,

00:31:01.640 --> 00:31:06.059
right? Yes. And so were people like, okay, the

00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:08.119
theory of evolution is broken or did they just

00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:11.319
go, we're missing a key piece? It was more the

00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.880
latter. Yeah, I know. It would be funny if we

00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.359
could blame strip sceptera for kind of a breaking

00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:23.880
of theory. But no, it was essentially that it

00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:25.700
seemed like there was a missing link, because

00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:29.759
there were kind of common characteristics that

00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.480
they seemed to share with some groups, but not

00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:38.299
all of them. And for some people, some sharing

00:31:38.299 --> 00:31:42.619
of traits was enough evidence, but not for a

00:31:42.619 --> 00:31:46.160
lot of other people, and vice versa, depending

00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:50.289
on the group. So it was a very... contentious

00:31:50.289 --> 00:31:52.849
debate for quite a while so what were the main

00:31:52.849 --> 00:31:54.890
candidates here you've already mentioned beetles

00:31:54.890 --> 00:31:59.210
i think you mentioned wasps and ants yeah yeah

00:31:59.210 --> 00:32:01.009
the first group that they were placed in were

00:32:01.009 --> 00:32:05.049
wasps and my thought and my understanding was

00:32:05.049 --> 00:32:09.009
that because they were seen to be parasites there

00:32:09.009 --> 00:32:11.789
are a lot of parasitic wasps and because they

00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:16.930
fly etc um and then the other thing was flies

00:32:16.930 --> 00:32:19.779
because they look like flies, and they have that

00:32:19.779 --> 00:32:23.160
little club -like structure, the twisted wing,

00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:26.039
which is the haltier in flies. That's what it's

00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.380
called. So given all of those, those were kind

00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:32.180
of the three main groups that people figured

00:32:32.180 --> 00:32:37.480
they should be in. Is there anything at all analogous

00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.299
to having that dilemma that you're aware of in

00:32:40.299 --> 00:32:45.390
science in the last 200 years? Where you're stuck

00:32:45.390 --> 00:32:47.869
going, is it one of these three really large?

00:32:47.930 --> 00:32:50.049
I have the creature right here, but I don't know.

00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:54.769
That seems very unusual in, let's say, even by

00:32:54.769 --> 00:32:58.349
the 1920s, right? Well, it actually happens a

00:32:58.349 --> 00:33:00.609
lot more often than you think. Just because I'm

00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:04.109
immersed in the field of taxonomy. The field

00:33:04.109 --> 00:33:07.690
of taxonomy is very dramatic. Oh my goodness.

00:33:07.809 --> 00:33:11.569
Yeah, there's a lot of this, especially in paleontology,

00:33:11.650 --> 00:33:14.029
but in essentially every group in the animal

00:33:14.029 --> 00:33:15.910
kingdom. Well, paleontology I understand, because

00:33:15.910 --> 00:33:19.950
we don't. Yeah. They're still at appearance,

00:33:20.089 --> 00:33:22.569
because, you know, you can't really do anything

00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:25.970
else. With the live ones, we can observe them.

00:33:26.009 --> 00:33:28.450
We can observe their move and how they fly or

00:33:28.450 --> 00:33:32.279
not fly, and I would expect that the... stuff

00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:39.420
living today would be no no yeah so it's a very

00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:44.339
it's a very uh human judgment field it's it's

00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:47.200
surprising because it's one of those things where

00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.640
you think oh we have such overwhelming evidence

00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:53.299
we have so much technology we can record everything

00:33:53.299 --> 00:33:57.400
that these animals do but the thing to remember

00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.859
is that taxonomists the people who are determining

00:34:00.809 --> 00:34:03.349
what is related to what and what is a species

00:34:03.349 --> 00:34:07.049
we are all human and humans have opinions so

00:34:07.049 --> 00:34:12.409
it can get surprisingly heated so what you're

00:34:12.409 --> 00:34:16.690
saying is it's not completely qualitative yes

00:34:16.690 --> 00:34:18.750
quantitative sorry it's a little qualitative

00:34:18.750 --> 00:34:21.909
and not completely quantitative sometimes it

00:34:21.909 --> 00:34:23.969
is very rigorous i have to say it's not just

00:34:23.969 --> 00:34:27.090
like i'm discounting yeah all of taxonomy but

00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:31.429
the thing about it is that You have to be very,

00:34:31.449 --> 00:34:34.909
very specialized and detail -oriented. Or you

00:34:34.909 --> 00:34:37.090
don't have to be specialized, but it ends up

00:34:37.090 --> 00:34:41.010
being the case that taxonomists become very specialized

00:34:41.010 --> 00:34:44.750
because in order to describe something, you have

00:34:44.750 --> 00:34:48.349
to know it inside out, literally a lot of the

00:34:48.349 --> 00:34:53.610
time, morphology inside and out. And taxonomists,

00:34:53.610 --> 00:34:57.170
to describe a species, have to choose the characters

00:34:57.170 --> 00:35:01.219
that they... with their best educated judgment

00:35:01.219 --> 00:35:05.159
to be the things that are informative about what

00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.880
sets this group apart from everything else. So

00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.760
that involves staring at an animal or a plant

00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:16.960
or a fungus for a very long time and determining

00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:20.760
the tiny little differences between it and something

00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.440
that looks really similar to it except for this

00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:27.320
one little character. Okay. well we still use

00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:29.760
this technique obviously today as i just learned

00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.599
but we do have some modern stuff as well right

00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:36.059
like um now we're kind of diving so we just talked

00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:40.760
about the past and how it's muddied the past

00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:46.239
yeah what is it related to hard to find uh not

00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:48.659
many people talked about it just because it's

00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:50.760
not causing us problems and we'll get around

00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:53.579
to why it's a good thing for us overall probably

00:35:53.579 --> 00:35:57.840
closer to the end but At some point, science

00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:01.579
moves. We get new tools to conduct science and

00:36:01.579 --> 00:36:04.519
collect data. And we started to be able to sequence

00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:09.739
genomes. So I assume this is, I guess, two parts.

00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:13.360
One, how does it change the dynamics? But first,

00:36:13.539 --> 00:36:17.599
how does that change taxonomy? How does that

00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:19.360
change that process? Because now you have something

00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.119
that is very data -driven. that has no subject

00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:26.199
matter like it's it's this and only this how

00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:28.739
did that change this whole classification scheme

00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:35.699
yes wildly that's also a great question so dna

00:36:35.699 --> 00:36:39.179
and genomes but starting with just like even

00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:43.940
singular genes being sequenced that changed the

00:36:43.940 --> 00:36:47.820
game because it just exponentially increased

00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:51.449
the amount of data available for comparison So

00:36:51.449 --> 00:36:56.449
they are actually treated in much the same way.

00:36:57.510 --> 00:37:00.309
The morphological characters that people would

00:37:00.309 --> 00:37:05.389
use to compare, they can be looked at in the

00:37:05.389 --> 00:37:10.829
same way as nucleotides in DNA. So the AGCT,

00:37:10.929 --> 00:37:15.929
there's like millions of AGCTs in a sequence,

00:37:16.170 --> 00:37:20.219
hundreds of millions. you can compare each of

00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:24.719
those to the next letter in the sequence for

00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:28.860
another species. So by doing that, it makes it

00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:33.659
so much more robust in a way to have this genetic

00:37:33.659 --> 00:37:37.340
code that we can compare because ostensibly the

00:37:37.340 --> 00:37:40.360
genetic code is what makes that appearance and

00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:43.500
what makes those appearance changes. So knowing

00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:48.329
that, it made... checking species identity a

00:37:48.329 --> 00:37:51.489
lot easier in some ways and then gave rise to

00:37:51.489 --> 00:37:54.010
different problems in other ways. But it was

00:37:54.010 --> 00:37:56.889
very exciting because it meant that now there

00:37:56.889 --> 00:38:00.769
is this way to double check kind of how well

00:38:00.769 --> 00:38:04.449
our judgment of morphological characters actually

00:38:04.449 --> 00:38:10.250
lines up with this like huge database of comparison

00:38:10.250 --> 00:38:14.760
that happens with DNA. Right, so I assume because

00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.000
these are obscure, there was a bigger database

00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:20.199
to begin with for all these other orders, and

00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:24.219
then this was compared afterwards? Yes. Okay.

00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:28.719
Yeah, the first genome wasn't sequenced until

00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:33.199
2012. But I don't know what that compares to,

00:38:33.219 --> 00:38:34.800
because I don't know when the first insect genome

00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:39.199
was sequenced. Yeah, so the first genome... in

00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:42.519
general, was sequenced in 1976, and it was an

00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:46.239
RNA bacteriophage. Right, I meant first insect.

00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:53.059
Yeah, 2000, exactly 2000. Okay, so 2000 was the

00:38:53.059 --> 00:38:57.000
first insect, and the first strepsiptera was

00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.420
done in 2012, you said? Yeah, so it's true that

00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:04.880
the kind of genomic revolution, as it's termed,

00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.360
happened quite fast. Like, once we started being

00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.679
able to sequence whole genomes, whole DNA sequences,

00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:16.099
then the technology just kept speeding up and

00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:18.639
it became easier and easier and more accessible

00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.960
to get these codes. So then what do you do? Like,

00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:25.199
here is all the codes for the Scripsiptera. This

00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:28.500
is all the codes for beetles and flies and wasps

00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:31.519
and who has the most likes, like, or like, like,

00:39:31.579 --> 00:39:35.969
like similar DNAs. It's just. that simple? Or

00:39:35.969 --> 00:39:38.710
were there key ones that are more important than

00:39:38.710 --> 00:39:43.769
others? Yeah, so before we actually got to genomes,

00:39:43.869 --> 00:39:48.309
the precursor to this was just genes, like not

00:39:48.309 --> 00:39:51.429
just, but you know, it was singular gene sequences,

00:39:51.530 --> 00:39:54.949
or multiple that were concatenated, or put together

00:39:54.949 --> 00:40:00.150
back to back. And the thing that wasn't really

00:40:00.150 --> 00:40:04.849
fully accounted for at the time was that genes

00:40:04.849 --> 00:40:10.829
have different evolutionary histories so they

00:40:10.829 --> 00:40:15.170
can change faster or slower depending on what

00:40:15.170 --> 00:40:18.389
is being affected by the environment that they

00:40:18.389 --> 00:40:21.230
encode right it's the same reason that when you

00:40:21.230 --> 00:40:23.269
get a species into a brand new environment or

00:40:23.269 --> 00:40:25.690
quote -unquote virgin environment like arriving

00:40:25.690 --> 00:40:28.369
in Hawaii or something like that or the famous

00:40:28.369 --> 00:40:31.969
ecuadorian finches right like they the genetic

00:40:31.969 --> 00:40:34.489
diversity explodes because they can fill all

00:40:34.489 --> 00:40:37.329
these niches and everything else. Yes, precisely.

00:40:37.690 --> 00:40:41.230
The finch that was on the mainland may hardly

00:40:41.230 --> 00:40:43.329
change at all, but these finches on this little

00:40:43.329 --> 00:40:46.409
tiny island have this crazy changing. I assume

00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:48.969
that's kind of what you mean? Yeah, it's similar

00:40:48.969 --> 00:40:53.949
because it's reflected in the DNA. So different

00:40:53.949 --> 00:40:58.409
genes, like a gene that encoded the beak for

00:40:58.409 --> 00:41:01.340
the finches. Maybe because they went to that

00:41:01.340 --> 00:41:05.199
new environment and they exploded, that gene

00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:08.219
changed a lot because it was advantageous for

00:41:08.219 --> 00:41:12.239
it to change a lot. So knowing that, if you compare

00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:15.480
that gene for the beak against a gene for, I

00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:19.119
don't know, your heart function, that wouldn't

00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:21.739
change because if it changed, then you would

00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:25.719
probably die. Or you'd be behaving very differently

00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:29.739
at the very least. Yes, exactly. If you keep

00:41:29.739 --> 00:41:32.079
that in mind, and then you try to make, like,

00:41:32.139 --> 00:41:36.360
an evolutionary history based on the changes

00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:39.099
of that, like, those two genes, they would tell

00:41:39.099 --> 00:41:43.480
a very different story. Right. So it was that

00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:46.820
with Strypsipter, basically. The first couple

00:41:46.820 --> 00:41:49.679
of genes that were sequenced and used to try

00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:53.139
to infer what it was most closely related to,

00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:58.699
those told a different story. than the rest of

00:41:58.699 --> 00:42:03.019
the genome eventually did later. What? Was it

00:42:03.019 --> 00:42:05.119
just by pure random luck they picked a couple

00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.699
of genes? It was because those were the easiest

00:42:08.699 --> 00:42:11.480
to sequence at the time. Okay, and what did those

00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:17.000
genes control? They're 16S RNA, so they were

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:21.460
mitochondrial genes. So mitochondria is the powerhouse

00:42:21.460 --> 00:42:24.860
of the cell, and they were genes that relate

00:42:24.860 --> 00:42:28.710
to that. So how do we get from there? And you've

00:42:28.710 --> 00:42:31.690
already gave it away already that it's beetles

00:42:31.690 --> 00:42:35.250
they're most closely related to. So what was

00:42:35.250 --> 00:42:37.369
it that they were trying to say we were more

00:42:37.369 --> 00:42:40.449
related to before we had the whole genome? And

00:42:40.449 --> 00:42:45.070
then why were we able? How did that come about?

00:42:45.150 --> 00:42:47.429
Like, what is the key that told us that it's

00:42:47.429 --> 00:42:52.840
probably beetles? The first, so those genes,

00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:58.139
the 16S RNA, et cetera, 18S too, those showed,

00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:03.559
well, the story that they told was that strip

00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:06.920
sifter is most closely related to flies. Okay.

00:43:06.940 --> 00:43:09.840
So based on the data they had, they suggested

00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:13.699
the most reasonable explanation for it was they're

00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:17.199
closely related to flies. Yes, precisely. And

00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:22.179
then once more data. were added including the

00:43:22.179 --> 00:43:26.099
genomes those pointed towards the story of them

00:43:26.099 --> 00:43:28.420
being most closely related to beetles and that's

00:43:28.420 --> 00:43:30.639
just based on the sheer number of shared genes

00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:34.599
that hadn't changed yeah or that are most similar

00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:36.820
all of them have changed right because everything

00:43:36.820 --> 00:43:38.800
has gone through you know the same amount of

00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:41.539
evolution but the genes go through different

00:43:41.539 --> 00:43:45.440
speed of change right okay you mentioned that

00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.000
these twisted wings they're similar to another

00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:53.059
uh fly species right they're just similar to

00:43:53.059 --> 00:43:56.199
flies in general so flies one of their defining

00:43:56.199 --> 00:44:00.579
characters yeah all of flies they have that hind

00:44:00.579 --> 00:44:04.280
wing that has turned into like a club like it

00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:07.500
looks like this right okay yeah so all of us

00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:09.360
are listening along because there is no video

00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:11.719
at all oh yeah sorry i keep forgetting she held

00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:15.480
out her arm a bit like a club that she was wielding

00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:18.920
towards me menacingly in the camera but I was

00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:21.800
more referring going back to the idea that is

00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:24.960
this a case where beetles also had a similar

00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.579
wing structure and then lost it or is this like

00:44:27.579 --> 00:44:30.539
a new evolutionary like two different groups

00:44:30.539 --> 00:44:34.630
evolving the same wing structure Yeah, thank

00:44:34.630 --> 00:44:37.869
you for asking that too. I wish I could show

00:44:37.869 --> 00:44:41.010
visuals, but I think I can guide the listeners

00:44:41.010 --> 00:44:44.670
to look up pictures perhaps. So Beatles have

00:44:44.670 --> 00:44:48.090
an elytra. If people, I don't know, if anyone's

00:44:48.090 --> 00:44:49.730
listening to this and they play Minecraft or

00:44:49.730 --> 00:44:51.889
have kids who play Minecraft, then they might

00:44:51.889 --> 00:44:56.929
know what that is. But be understandable. Even

00:44:56.929 --> 00:44:59.510
the one in Minecraft is not exactly what it is

00:44:59.510 --> 00:45:03.340
in real life. beetles have a hard shell most

00:45:03.340 --> 00:45:06.380
of them that's their elytra so that's actually

00:45:06.380 --> 00:45:09.920
their forewing and their forewing is what has

00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:15.659
formed that case so thinking about that beetles

00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:19.920
and strepsiptera then both have a modified forewing

00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.559
and at first you think of things like ladybugs

00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:25.019
and you're like well that doesn't look at all

00:45:25.019 --> 00:45:28.699
like a club but there are beetle families that

00:45:28.699 --> 00:45:33.559
very closely resemble strepsiptera. So rhipiphoridae,

00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:38.460
r -i -p -i -p -h -o -r -i -d -a -e, rhipiphoridae,

00:45:38.460 --> 00:45:43.380
that is a family of wedge -shaped beetles, that's

00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:48.059
their common name, and they look a lot like strepsiptera

00:45:48.059 --> 00:45:51.039
in males. There are even some rhipiphorids where

00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:56.009
the female stays larva form or worm -like. And

00:45:56.009 --> 00:46:00.789
therefore they have very, very similar life histories.

00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:06.349
Wow. So they're a really good case. Okay. So

00:46:06.349 --> 00:46:10.369
genetics solved at least the strep siftra problem,

00:46:10.590 --> 00:46:13.530
at least as we understand it right now. But did

00:46:13.530 --> 00:46:15.889
it also change the number of species we had identified?

00:46:16.409 --> 00:46:18.050
Like, was there a whole bunch of species that

00:46:18.050 --> 00:46:19.610
was like, actually, no, these are the same or

00:46:19.610 --> 00:46:22.670
actually, no, these are separate species? Yeah.

00:46:23.130 --> 00:46:25.869
yeah that is happening right now as we speak

00:46:25.869 --> 00:46:28.909
like there is there is ongoing research and there

00:46:28.909 --> 00:46:31.469
has been very recent research that has been looking

00:46:31.469 --> 00:46:36.110
into this exact question with different groups

00:46:36.110 --> 00:46:38.829
specifically because it takes a lot of time to

00:46:38.829 --> 00:46:42.750
like analyze all of these genomes as you can

00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:46.530
imagine there's just a lot of data so for the

00:46:46.530 --> 00:46:52.059
genus stylops which is one of the most speciose

00:46:52.059 --> 00:46:55.219
it has the most many many species in it that

00:46:55.219 --> 00:46:59.400
group infects mining bees or this genus andrena

00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:05.460
andrena those have been looked at by mary latinaro

00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:10.599
who is uh a colleague and she's really cool she

00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:13.960
looked at stylops and checked out cryptic species

00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:17.619
in there so there's there's been kind of this

00:47:17.619 --> 00:47:22.269
overhaul um looking at all of those to check

00:47:22.269 --> 00:47:24.650
out like how many species there may or may not

00:47:24.650 --> 00:47:28.409
be and what they're using as hosts and things

00:47:28.409 --> 00:47:32.969
like that there's also a family of strepsipterans

00:47:32.969 --> 00:47:37.090
also the most speciose family actually and it

00:47:37.090 --> 00:47:39.570
is made up of a family that infects wasps all

00:47:39.570 --> 00:47:43.909
wasps which is fun and that is xenidae which

00:47:43.909 --> 00:47:46.289
is the group that we study in my current lab

00:47:46.289 --> 00:47:51.289
actually So Daniel Benda in 2020 did this huge

00:47:51.289 --> 00:47:56.349
overhaul of that family with DNA data and found

00:47:56.349 --> 00:47:59.010
a bunch of cryptic species there as well. So

00:47:59.010 --> 00:48:02.170
they were more than expected. So you used a term

00:48:02.170 --> 00:48:03.869
there that I wasn't expecting. I know what it

00:48:03.869 --> 00:48:05.550
means just by the nature of how you're using

00:48:05.550 --> 00:48:11.610
it. Cryptic species. Yeah. So what are we talking?

00:48:11.650 --> 00:48:14.150
Just species that you didn't know were there.

00:48:14.230 --> 00:48:17.050
So they're cryptic. Yeah, yeah, that's precisely

00:48:17.050 --> 00:48:20.110
it. Because crypsis is another word for camouflage,

00:48:20.190 --> 00:48:23.010
basically. And in this context, it means they

00:48:23.010 --> 00:48:25.150
look the same. They were like hiding amongst

00:48:25.150 --> 00:48:29.730
other species, but they're actually different

00:48:29.730 --> 00:48:32.190
when we look at how much they've diverged by

00:48:32.190 --> 00:48:35.429
DNA. Crazy. So just out of random curiosity,

00:48:35.670 --> 00:48:41.489
the parasitic wasps, are they sometimes parasitized

00:48:41.489 --> 00:48:46.679
by these as well? Yeah, in a manner of speaking.

00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:52.579
So it kind of depends on how you see parasitism,

00:48:52.579 --> 00:48:57.159
because I think of what I'm thinking of for a

00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:00.340
lot of them are actually like predators more

00:49:00.340 --> 00:49:03.000
so, I suppose, because their larvae are what

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.280
are eating the caterpillars and things. But yeah,

00:49:06.739 --> 00:49:10.920
there are definitely like layers on layers of

00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:14.079
life history. And it's very fun to think about.

00:49:14.139 --> 00:49:17.699
Even strepsipterans themselves can be infected

00:49:17.699 --> 00:49:22.139
by other things. Sweet. A parasite of a parasite.

00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:27.380
Yes. Yes. Pathogens and parasites and parasites

00:49:27.380 --> 00:49:32.739
infected themselves by pathogens. So it's a whole

00:49:32.739 --> 00:49:36.840
tangled web. So there's insects that will parasitize

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:41.389
these critters as well. There are microbes. Yeah,

00:49:41.530 --> 00:49:44.550
I'm talking about microbes. But I still think

00:49:44.550 --> 00:49:46.429
it's fascinating. I know it would have been kind

00:49:46.429 --> 00:49:50.489
of nuts if there were things like parasitoid

00:49:50.489 --> 00:49:54.789
wasps. Yeah, basically. Yeah, I wish. I would

00:49:54.789 --> 00:49:58.449
love that. But yeah, what I'm thinking of are

00:49:58.449 --> 00:50:02.829
things like Wolbachia, which is a gram -negative

00:50:02.829 --> 00:50:05.210
bacteria. So it's a bacteria that infects...

00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:08.659
insects. It's most widely known for that and

00:50:08.659 --> 00:50:12.719
other arthropods and nematodes, but it can be

00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:16.099
found in Strepsiptera host systems, which is

00:50:16.099 --> 00:50:17.760
something that I did during the course of my

00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:20.719
dissertation was find this, which was really

00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:22.579
cool. There are a couple other labs who also

00:50:22.579 --> 00:50:26.559
found it around the same time. And this thing

00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:30.480
is neat because Wolbachia is known to be a reproductive

00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:35.550
parasite in insects. So it can kind of hijack

00:50:35.550 --> 00:50:38.750
the reproductive system of the insect that it's

00:50:38.750 --> 00:50:44.090
infecting and we use it as humans we use it to

00:50:44.090 --> 00:50:48.530
control mosquito populations so yeah if you infect

00:50:48.530 --> 00:50:52.949
a mosquito with a strain of Wolbachia and the

00:50:52.949 --> 00:50:55.550
natural population is infected with a different

00:50:55.550 --> 00:50:58.230
strain of Wolbachia then they can't produce fertile

00:50:58.230 --> 00:51:06.849
offspring crazy it's really cool Okay. I think

00:51:06.849 --> 00:51:09.969
we need to change gears because we're getting

00:51:09.969 --> 00:51:11.769
really off the beaten track now, which is all

00:51:11.769 --> 00:51:14.590
good. I'm all for all kinds of different jumping

00:51:14.590 --> 00:51:17.550
off points and distractions and deviations and

00:51:17.550 --> 00:51:20.630
detours. But we've gone through the present and

00:51:20.630 --> 00:51:24.530
the past and now the future. So where is our

00:51:24.530 --> 00:51:28.469
understanding for this obscure little creature

00:51:28.469 --> 00:51:33.369
going? And more importantly, is why is it important?

00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:36.000
Like, why do we need to know more about this

00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:42.039
particular insect? Yeah, the future of Strepsiptera

00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:45.039
is just finding more Strepsiptera, honestly,

00:51:45.139 --> 00:51:48.320
because we know they're out there. And as you

00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:50.079
mentioned, there are so many species that are

00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:52.980
only known from one of the sexes. So there's

00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:56.280
definitely a lot more to be uncovered. And they

00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:00.900
just play such a complex role in their ecosystems

00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:05.389
that... Figuring out what they're infecting and

00:52:05.389 --> 00:52:08.489
how they're infecting them and everything is

00:52:08.489 --> 00:52:16.210
something that I think is a noble and exciting

00:52:16.210 --> 00:52:20.969
endeavor. To be fair, the why is it important

00:52:20.969 --> 00:52:24.969
is always very easy for me personally to say,

00:52:25.030 --> 00:52:28.250
but kind of hard to receive because I love them

00:52:28.250 --> 00:52:30.489
because I think they're exciting. But that doesn't

00:52:30.489 --> 00:52:34.050
necessarily get you grants. for sure although

00:52:34.050 --> 00:52:37.010
you never know where science is going to lead

00:52:37.010 --> 00:52:41.050
you and i think back to the last time i did anything

00:52:41.050 --> 00:52:44.210
bug related was actually on spiders and pheromones

00:52:44.210 --> 00:52:48.630
and how black widows find mates and uh being

00:52:48.630 --> 00:52:52.110
able to figure out what pheromones exist and

00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:55.619
you can start to control insect populations instead

00:52:55.619 --> 00:52:59.079
of gassing them in chemicals. So I would imagine

00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:02.900
that having a healthy population of these strepsipteras

00:53:02.900 --> 00:53:06.840
is important to control different pests as well,

00:53:06.940 --> 00:53:10.940
right? It may be. Yeah, there are actually some

00:53:10.940 --> 00:53:15.559
that infect things like plant hoppers that are

00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:19.059
found in rice fields and other agricultural contexts.

00:53:19.420 --> 00:53:24.659
And since strepsipterans... in some cases, for

00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:27.820
those plant hoppers or plant hoppers like them,

00:53:27.900 --> 00:53:30.780
can be found in relatively high levels in the

00:53:30.780 --> 00:53:33.760
population. They could be an avenue for control.

00:53:34.500 --> 00:53:37.199
You did also remind me, though, that actually,

00:53:37.260 --> 00:53:40.480
as part of this lab, one of the ways I can push

00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:44.239
for them being important and exciting is that

00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:49.599
Strypsipterans, some species, it has been documented.

00:53:51.469 --> 00:53:55.269
or at least one species, we know that they can

00:53:55.269 --> 00:54:00.610
extend the lifespan of their host. What? I thought

00:54:00.610 --> 00:54:02.849
they also occasionally made them infertile and

00:54:02.849 --> 00:54:07.730
things. Yes, they do. They do, but they also

00:54:07.730 --> 00:54:13.010
extend the lifespan. So something really cool.

00:54:13.070 --> 00:54:15.829
I can't believe I left this off and didn't immediately

00:54:15.829 --> 00:54:18.630
answer with this, but something really cool about

00:54:18.630 --> 00:54:22.019
the system we study. is that we're finding that

00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:28.840
the infected workers um okay let me explain this

00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:33.460
specific system in our lab it's between the strep

00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:37.420
scepter and xenos peckii and the common paper

00:54:37.420 --> 00:54:40.760
wasp polystes fuscatus that is found in north

00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:43.559
america no they're different they're kind of

00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:47.019
reddish But you'll find them along the East Coast.

00:54:47.320 --> 00:54:50.300
There are other polystes all over the U .S.,

00:54:50.300 --> 00:54:53.739
but polystes piscatus is the one that we study

00:54:53.739 --> 00:54:57.380
specifically. And the cool thing about those

00:54:57.380 --> 00:55:02.860
is that in paper wasp nests and in their social

00:55:02.860 --> 00:55:06.780
system, because they're a relatively social insect,

00:55:06.980 --> 00:55:11.420
there are workers, there are gines, and there

00:55:11.420 --> 00:55:16.420
are foundresses, and there are males. um foundresses

00:55:16.420 --> 00:55:20.420
like start a nest but giants can they're they

00:55:20.420 --> 00:55:23.820
become the reproductives uh later in the season

00:55:23.820 --> 00:55:29.719
so giants can overwinter and then start another

00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:35.159
nest so they're like the foundresses um giants

00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:38.420
live longer than than workers like workers are

00:55:38.420 --> 00:55:42.929
kind of the first wave of uh offspring by a foundress

00:55:42.929 --> 00:55:46.449
and they'll work to keep the nest and then care

00:55:46.449 --> 00:55:50.489
for the brood and things but the gines are different

00:55:50.489 --> 00:55:52.570
because they have to overwinter and be able to

00:55:52.570 --> 00:55:56.550
start new nests so we found that when a worker

00:55:56.550 --> 00:56:01.969
is infected it lives as long as a gine like it

00:56:01.969 --> 00:56:05.289
is able to overwinter and in the context of like

00:56:05.289 --> 00:56:08.809
humans that's like a person instead of living

00:56:08.809 --> 00:56:14.800
70 years living like 600 years. Wow. So it's

00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:21.159
9 to 13 times longer, the lifespan. Don't tell

00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:25.739
the anti -aging community, please. We get enough

00:56:25.739 --> 00:56:28.440
pseudoscience from them that we do not need to

00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:32.159
see this. Well, the fun thing is that University

00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:35.260
of Rochester is known for its, like, for aging,

00:56:35.539 --> 00:56:39.360
for investigating aging. So that's where a lot

00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:44.670
of our... funding is coming from is looking into

00:56:44.670 --> 00:56:48.469
this phenomenon because what our lab looks at

00:56:48.469 --> 00:56:52.329
are specific genes and mechanisms. You should

00:56:52.329 --> 00:56:53.110
have told me that right from the beginning. We've

00:56:53.110 --> 00:56:56.449
done a whole episode on that on its own. I know,

00:56:56.469 --> 00:56:59.750
it is fascinating. Yeah, it's cutting edge right

00:56:59.750 --> 00:57:03.849
now. We're working on multiple different projects

00:57:03.849 --> 00:57:07.099
that are approaching this from different... angles

00:57:07.099 --> 00:57:10.539
and i'm here to be like the parasite person but

00:57:10.539 --> 00:57:14.159
they have been working on this for a number of

00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:16.519
years now in really cool ways so they're all

00:57:16.519 --> 00:57:20.800
also very um very knowledgeable about this parasite

00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.820
system so i'm kind of excited to come in and

00:57:22.820 --> 00:57:26.239
also approach it from a different kind of parasite

00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:28.619
centered focus and learn about the host in the

00:57:28.619 --> 00:57:36.980
meantime too sorry I'm a little flabbergasted

00:57:36.980 --> 00:57:39.800
here. I'm like, what? That's why I love doing

00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:41.360
the podcast. It's just like all of a sudden going,

00:57:41.500 --> 00:57:44.559
wait a minute. And you start with something like,

00:57:44.579 --> 00:57:47.119
oh no, this really strange bug that I don't really

00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:49.960
understand. And yet you're like, wait, it's tied

00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:54.099
to increasing the lifespan of a particular, like,

00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:57.539
how does that affect the wasp's life cycle? Does

00:57:57.539 --> 00:58:03.299
that have any ongoing effects? Like. Yeah. Okay,

00:58:03.299 --> 00:58:05.719
so that is one avenue of the future of where

00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:09.179
this is going. It is. I'm sorry I left it out.

00:58:09.300 --> 00:58:10.960
It's so funny because... You brought it right

00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:13.139
to the climax of the episode, although people

00:58:13.139 --> 00:58:15.139
now have to listen to this point to even get

00:58:15.139 --> 00:58:17.519
it. I know, to get to it. It's funny because

00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:21.699
it's my every day. So it's things like this that

00:58:21.699 --> 00:58:24.280
remind me that what I'm doing is actually really

00:58:24.280 --> 00:58:26.079
cool because I'm excited about it all the time,

00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:29.739
but I forget really, you know. But again, everything's

00:58:29.739 --> 00:58:32.130
connected to like... Every single one of these

00:58:32.130 --> 00:58:34.389
I've done that is centered around a paper, I

00:58:34.389 --> 00:58:36.409
feel like there's something there that all of

00:58:36.409 --> 00:58:41.849
a sudden I go, what? Yeah, that makes sense.

00:58:41.949 --> 00:58:43.949
Even when I have a colleague on that's like about

00:58:43.949 --> 00:58:46.829
volcanoes, I'm still like going, wait, really?

00:58:47.210 --> 00:58:53.510
Oh, nice. There's so much. Yeah. Science never

00:58:53.510 --> 00:58:58.699
stops giving. There's a... Oh, I was just thinking

00:58:58.699 --> 00:59:01.960
about how in Rochester and in cities really around

00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:03.780
the world, there is something called Nerd Night.

00:59:03.880 --> 00:59:07.920
And I just went to one and the person who went

00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:11.480
was talking about geomorphology. Yeah, and she

00:59:11.480 --> 00:59:13.900
talked about sand physics. So I was just thinking

00:59:13.900 --> 00:59:19.400
about how that was a wild time. Okay, well, I've

00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:23.960
only got one more question. And then it's starting

00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:26.940
to wrap everything up. So museums and their catalogs

00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:30.059
came up in this paper as a source, as a kind

00:59:30.059 --> 00:59:32.420
of like a sausage making of science. I don't

00:59:32.420 --> 00:59:36.199
know how I can follow up that grand finale. This

00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:38.960
is almost like the epilogue, I guess. I feel

00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:42.059
many fail to appreciate the wealth and data that,

00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:45.619
you know, many of these museums hold, both culturally

00:59:45.619 --> 00:59:49.780
and, in our case, scientifically. How important

00:59:49.780 --> 00:59:52.699
is that back catalog in the museums to the work

00:59:52.699 --> 00:59:56.440
that you guys do? Oh boy, howdy. It is the lifeblood.

00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:00.760
Yeah. So museums, I don't, yeah, people don't

01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:03.239
really realize. I feel like a lot of people have

01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:06.039
been surprised when I took them, when I was still

01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:07.739
at the museum, when I would take them upstairs

01:00:07.739 --> 01:00:12.380
and show them how the sausage is made, that museums

01:00:12.380 --> 01:00:16.579
are active places of research. There are people

01:00:16.579 --> 01:00:20.519
upstairs or downstairs or behind the walls actively

01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:25.539
looking at the iceberg, the rest of the iceberg

01:00:25.539 --> 01:00:28.719
that's underwater, because the things that are

01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:32.420
displayed are just the tip. There's a fraction,

01:00:32.579 --> 01:00:34.719
a tiny fraction of the things that you see on

01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:38.699
display at museums are the collection, essentially,

01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:44.420
of the collection. And museums are kind of a

01:00:44.420 --> 01:00:53.380
library. of life because taxonomy and systematics

01:00:53.380 --> 01:00:56.239
so taxonomy describing and classifying things

01:00:56.239 --> 01:00:58.280
and then systematics finding out how they all

01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:02.059
relate to each other those depend on us being

01:01:02.059 --> 01:01:05.199
able to see the specimens and access the specimens

01:01:05.199 --> 01:01:09.019
for sampling perhaps so museums are the most

01:01:09.019 --> 01:01:13.340
important thing i would argue to the study of

01:01:13.340 --> 01:01:16.139
life and evolution as a whole, because they provide

01:01:16.139 --> 01:01:20.579
the foundation for that research. So appreciate

01:01:20.579 --> 01:01:23.400
your local museums, but also know that there

01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:25.960
is so much below the surface that you're not

01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:29.280
seeing. And some exhibits are doing a really

01:01:29.280 --> 01:01:34.679
good job in places like the British Museum and

01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:38.840
the AMNH especially, and the Cal Academy of Sciences,

01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:42.440
my three favorites. those all have great exhibits

01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:44.699
about like what their scientists are actively

01:01:44.699 --> 01:01:48.039
doing and i would encourage people to look into

01:01:48.039 --> 01:01:51.179
it because so many more people than i realized

01:01:51.179 --> 01:01:53.599
are surprised that you can work as a scientist

01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:59.300
in a museum yeah awesome i mean i don't get to

01:01:59.300 --> 01:02:02.079
get out to enough museums as it is and i find

01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:04.860
closer to where i live there's lots of cultural

01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:07.880
museums i'm more of a science guy i'd love to

01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:10.800
go to the Museum of Natural History in New York

01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:14.619
and the others and just wander around, get lost,

01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:19.800
be nerdy. I did that every night. Well, especially

01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:21.679
for my first year there, I was just wandering

01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:26.880
the halls at 3 a .m. Jealous. It was awesome.

01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:29.679
But this is also the time where you can call

01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:31.980
out one of those buddies that were on those 3

01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:33.739
a .m. walks with you, if there was anyone, because

01:02:33.739 --> 01:02:35.719
it's time for the call -out. So this is your

01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:38.940
chance to, you know, other work. colleagues,

01:02:39.099 --> 01:02:43.880
upcoming things, maybe a STEM group that you're

01:02:43.880 --> 01:02:45.559
or something that you're doing in that regard

01:02:45.559 --> 01:02:49.599
of communication, whatever you got. Oh, that's

01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:54.760
very sweet. Well, just because today I was thinking

01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:59.400
about them, I would love to give acknowledgement

01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:03.280
to my office mates and lab mates at the AMNH.

01:03:03.820 --> 01:03:07.360
Anna Eichert in particular is, she studies stoneflies

01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:11.320
and the systematics of those and has a really

01:03:11.320 --> 01:03:13.840
cool project too with collaborating with fly

01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:17.360
fishermen because they're very familiar with

01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:19.820
aquatic insects just from a different point of

01:03:19.820 --> 01:03:23.360
view. And she's going to be hopefully defending

01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:26.000
her dissertation this year too. So I'm just thinking

01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.579
of her because that is a really difficult journey

01:03:28.579 --> 01:03:33.170
to go through and the rest of the WARE lab. whom

01:03:33.170 --> 01:03:36.230
i miss dearly well i was thinking about nerd

01:03:36.230 --> 01:03:40.190
night because i think it's cool and things like

01:03:40.190 --> 01:03:44.130
story collider so science communication and your

01:03:44.130 --> 01:03:46.969
podcast like i love doing things like this because

01:03:46.969 --> 01:03:50.250
i feel like if you're a scientist but you can't

01:03:50.250 --> 01:03:52.369
communicate what you're doing to the world you

01:03:52.369 --> 01:03:54.829
can't get it out there and you can't get everyone

01:03:54.829 --> 01:03:58.750
interested in learning about what you love to

01:03:58.750 --> 01:04:01.469
learn about then it's kind of difficult to enact

01:04:01.469 --> 01:04:04.469
any change in the world so i just want to appreciate

01:04:04.469 --> 01:04:08.449
you for doing this podcast oh thanks yeah it

01:04:08.449 --> 01:04:12.849
if no one understands the science then we it

01:04:12.849 --> 01:04:16.030
gets lost like when you can't connect it back

01:04:16.030 --> 01:04:19.050
to the humans or how it affects their lives nobody

01:04:19.050 --> 01:04:21.449
cares and so when you can't have those conversations

01:04:21.449 --> 01:04:23.809
it's like nobody really cares about a doctor

01:04:23.809 --> 01:04:25.809
until you get sick right it's the same idea yeah

01:04:25.809 --> 01:04:28.269
you have to have those conversations because

01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:30.900
People are not going to interact with an entomologist

01:04:30.900 --> 01:04:33.219
on their day -to -day lives. But the podcast

01:04:33.219 --> 01:04:36.199
is a way where we can bring somebody into that

01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:38.079
intimate conversation about how science gets

01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:41.760
done and why it's important. So it's great. But

01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:45.579
now for something really silly. It's time for

01:04:45.579 --> 01:04:48.300
the traditional, infamous last question of the

01:04:48.300 --> 01:04:54.639
show. Tell us your favorite science joke. Okay.

01:04:55.699 --> 01:05:03.349
Excuse me. So, um, option number one. Just give,

01:05:03.429 --> 01:05:07.670
just give us, just go for it. Okay, so, um, this

01:05:07.670 --> 01:05:10.789
one's kind of derived from my favorite joke that

01:05:10.789 --> 01:05:13.989
I've heard my AMNH advisor, Dr. Jessica Ware,

01:05:14.090 --> 01:05:18.969
tell at a campfire. It was very funny. Here goes.

01:05:19.869 --> 01:05:24.960
There is a man and, uh, his pet millipede basically

01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:27.219
and every morning they kind of have a routine

01:05:27.219 --> 01:05:30.119
going where the man will walk downstairs and

01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:33.000
then the millipede will wake up and the man will

01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:37.159
like start breakfast and stuff and the millipede

01:05:37.159 --> 01:05:39.480
will go fetch the mail and then they'll have

01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:43.619
breakfast together and just hang out but one

01:05:43.619 --> 01:05:48.940
day the mail arrives like super early so the

01:05:48.940 --> 01:05:50.760
guy comes downstairs and he's like oh my god

01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:54.840
Like, I can't go outside yet. So he turns to

01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:56.440
the millipede who's just waking up and goes,

01:05:56.539 --> 01:05:59.699
hey, can you go fetch the mail? And the millipede

01:05:59.699 --> 01:06:03.159
goes like, and goes to the other room. So the

01:06:03.159 --> 01:06:06.920
guy starts breakfast and he's just kind of like

01:06:06.920 --> 01:06:09.940
waiting around and the breakfast's ready. And

01:06:09.940 --> 01:06:12.460
he's just like, where, what's happening? Like,

01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:15.159
where's the millipede? What's going on? And he's

01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:18.019
finished breakfast because it's gotten cold and

01:06:18.019 --> 01:06:20.360
he's tired of waiting. And the millipede comes

01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:23.269
back in. And he's got the mail. And the guy's

01:06:23.269 --> 01:06:26.389
like, well, what happened out there? Like, why

01:06:26.389 --> 01:06:28.730
did it take you so long? And the millipede said,

01:06:28.909 --> 01:06:36.250
well, I had to put my shoes on. Nice. And then

01:06:36.250 --> 01:06:42.309
I have one that is a bit more relevant to the

01:06:42.309 --> 01:06:46.980
subject matter of this conversation. So you told

01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:48.539
us your favorite joke and now you're going to

01:06:48.539 --> 01:06:52.500
tell us your favorite strepsitra joke. Yeah.

01:06:52.699 --> 01:06:58.480
Okay. Yeah. So if I were a wasp, I think I would

01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:02.079
hate to have the ability to understand like other

01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:05.340
species because then I just constantly hear the

01:07:05.340 --> 01:07:07.500
muffled conversations of the strepsitra in my

01:07:07.500 --> 01:07:11.260
stomach. But it's no problem because I'd be able

01:07:11.260 --> 01:07:17.440
to hear them clearly in a couple days. That one

01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:20.980
was especially dumb. They're all great. It doesn't

01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:24.360
matter. The crazier, the sillier, the less understandable,

01:07:24.440 --> 01:07:27.320
the better. Oh, bless. Thank you so much for

01:07:27.320 --> 01:07:31.599
coming on. And yeah, cheers. Yeah, thank you.

01:07:31.699 --> 01:07:34.739
This was really fun. So real quick here, because

01:07:34.739 --> 01:07:36.820
I know this episode was super long and super

01:07:36.820 --> 01:07:39.840
awesome. Loved every moment of it. But just to

01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:41.820
quickly tie back into something that happened

01:07:41.820 --> 01:07:45.070
during the episode, the first time that... a

01:07:45.070 --> 01:07:47.909
species from sepsistera was found, they only

01:07:47.909 --> 01:07:52.070
found the females. They didn't find the males

01:07:52.070 --> 01:07:55.269
until almost a decade later for the first time.

01:07:55.329 --> 01:07:58.090
So that's really cool. Amazing. I hope you really

01:07:58.090 --> 01:08:01.050
enjoyed the conversation. I know to the heck

01:08:01.050 --> 01:08:04.869
I did. And I'll see you guys here in two weeks.

01:08:07.929 --> 01:08:12.989
So chaotic, so misbehaved Echoes of melodies

01:08:12.989 --> 01:08:20.569
remind us it's always Colors weave stories painting

01:08:20.569 --> 01:08:27.569
the sky Swaying to rhythms as the galaxies fly

01:08:27.569 --> 01:08:28.250
by