WEBVTT

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Lost in the fog of a cosmic storm Floating on

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whimsical wavelengths is the norm Dancing through

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the stars, chasing spectrums of light Mars on

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Mars. Say that ten times fast. It's time for

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Whimsical Wavelengths. Today is looking at volcanic

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eruptions on a neighboring planet. That being

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Mars. Looking into the rock record is always

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like detective work. Collecting measurements

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and clues to slowly piece together the past.

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Doing that on another planet is even harder.

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No one is there to pick up samples or walk the

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outcrops. The first word that started this episode.

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Mars. M -A -A -R -S. So no, not the planet. Mars,

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we have them here on Earth. They're formed by

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violent interactions between rising magma and

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subsurface water or ice. Okay, like a lot of

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things, the name sort of hides a few terms. If

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I would expand it a little bit, the full phrase

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for this type of volcanism would be Frito -Magmatic

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Mar Diatreme Volcano. Yeah, a mouthful. Let's

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break that down a little bit. The first word

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is phrytomagmatic. Phryto is a prefix coming

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from Greek pertaining to water. Magmatic? Well,

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that's magma. Hot, liquid rock under the ground.

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So this first word indicates steam explosions,

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which include magma. If you're looking into this

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on your own, you'll probably see the term phreatic.

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This is still a steam explosion where the heat

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is still due to magma beneath the ground, but

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no magma was included in the eruption. Yellowstone's

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geysers and the occasional bigger explosions

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from that same system fall into this class. Marr

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is a description of the geometry as well, or

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the deposits left behind. because they leave

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a broad, relatively shallow depression that cuts

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into the country rock. So that's just the rock

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that was already there. Often below the original,

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pre -eruptive surface. So they'll show up as

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kind of like holes, or depressions. These features

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get shorthanded into Mars, in both the literature

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and in common speech among us volcanologists.

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Finally, diatremes. They're the broken pipe or

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carrot -like shape left behind by the rising

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material that erupted. From Kilauea to Messiah

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to the Cascades, we've covered plenty of volcanic

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styles on this show, but this one is new to Whimsical

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Wavelengths. We'll get into so much more in a

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moment, when our guest arrives. But I feel it's

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important to iterate on one thing. Finding them

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doesn't just record an eruption. Remember, you

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need groundwater, so they record part of the

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environmental conditions at the time they occurred,

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if you could find evidence of them on. Mars,

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the red planet, you could infer environmental

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conditions on a distant planet when that eruption

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occurred. Constraining past environmental conditions

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on Mars, that would be huge. If Mars, M -A -A

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-R -S, really existed on Mars, it means the god

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of war might have had to share the stage with

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the god of fire. Mythologically... word to discuss

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mar volcanoes and the hunt for them on mars and

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what we can do with them all right so please

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welcome to whimsical wavelengths professor at

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the university of missouri kansas city dr allison

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grettinger hi there and you know what we we met

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way back in 2007 i think it was um i think we

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might be getting old at messiah volcano where

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both of us were volunteering with dr guillaume

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marie You also, like me, volunteered at the Hawaiian

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Volcano Observatory as well. How did all those

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things come together? Was it like a high school

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straight into volcanology or like from a little

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tiny kid like wanting to poke lava with a stick?

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Or was there like a meandering path? I might

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not have been that ambitious when I was little.

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I definitely wanted to be covered in mud as often

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as possible. But I was lucky enough to meet somebody

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that told me geology was a thing. And how do

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I get there was chemistry and geology in high

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school. Didn't have geology. So when I finally

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took my first geology course, it was sort of

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a trust this process and dove right in. In college,

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it worked out. And my professor eventually told

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me that I could study volcanoes like that. I

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needed permission, apparently. I thought that

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was made up. I wasn't being in movies. And he's

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like, no, you don't want to just do petrology.

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I don't want to just study crystals and things

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that I can't touch directly. He's like, go play

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with volcanoes. Wait, he actually said that?

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You didn't actually ask? He was just like, clearly

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you like volcanoes. Go. go right because i was

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asking about grad programs in igneous petrology

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which would have been behind the microscope um

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you know some field work maybe but he's like

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no that's not right for you no so it's somebody

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who was you know a faculty member who listened

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really well and i will always be grateful for

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that because then i was brave enough to run off

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to new zealand for a master's which was wild

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but that was partially because i had bad test

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scores and new zealand didn't care about my test

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scores and so when i didn't get some perfect

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shiny position in the us i ran off to new zealand

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and they happily trained me up from where i was

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to the next level and to get to nicaragua i was

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just on a mailing list and again it took a bit

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of a leap of faith that like come meet us in

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nicaragua um and and it worked out and i now

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still talk to you and i talked to some of the

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other folks who went with us and I just got to

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see Guillaume last summer, which was awesome.

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Awesome. So humans are such a big part of our

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journey. Like it's, you can't have a perfect

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path. Life of course intervenes, but it's the

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humans who can help you see what you don't see

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or to, to trust you and take you to the next

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level or say here, go hike through that gas plume

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with a battery on your back and dig some holes.

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And see if you like it. And to be fair to all

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those listening, that is almost exactly what

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we did at Messiah Volcano. I don't remember the

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battery so much, but I do remember the wire,

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the tools, the electrodes, and the gas plume.

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We had a magnetometer for a day. That's why we

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had a battery. Yeah, there was a magnetometer

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for a day. It was a lot of really dusty, sweaty

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work because at that time in Nicaragua, it was

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the dry season. And every time you dig, there

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was like this puff of both soil and ash that

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kind of wafted out over you, which stuck to your

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sweat. And so you had a number of different colors

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by the time you got home due to SPF dirt, as

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I like to call it. It was effective against UV.

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We're here to talk about Mars. And I'm pronouncing

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that right. It's M -A -A -R. But it's still Mars.

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You can blame the Germans because the type locality,

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or at least the first location, was in Germany.

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And so that was the name given and it stuck.

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Well, I'm all for whatever name as long as it

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stays consistent. Maybe one of these days I'll

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get into with diatremes, which we will also be

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talking about, but dimeriferous diatremes. They

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have all kinds of weird terminology that doesn't

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exist anywhere else in volcanology. Which drives

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me crazy. But I'm already convinced as to the

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reason why we need to study Mars. I'm biased.

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All things volcanic or basically all science,

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really. But for the listener, what makes sense

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that why are these like important to study broadly?

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Yeah, so the whole reason I'm interested in Mars

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is they look unassuming because we frequently

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discover them as these shallow sloped. rises

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with a little lake in the middle and they're

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frequently completely covered in farmland or

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pastoral grasses and it looks non -threatening.

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However, the eruptions that formed them that

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made that hole in the ground were explosive and

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if we are overlooking them we're missing out

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on a pretty significant hazard. Now they aren't

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the most frequent of volcanic activity, but it's

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one of those high risk scenarios that if it does

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happen, it's a big enough problem that we do

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need to understand where they are, how often

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they occur, what else could happen besides the

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MAR, what other types of eruptive activity, and

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how to better prepare in the future. All of that

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comes from just staring at what already happened.

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Okay, so how... How big are we really talking

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about if they're a hazard? You know, we're not

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talking about yellow stones, geysers throwing

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some rocks in the air. We're talking about something

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much more significant than that, aren't we? Right.

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You could potentially have an eruption that's

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as small as the geyser scale where rocks are

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thrown a few hundred feet or tens of meters.

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But more likely, we're going to deal with particles

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going. one to two kilometers from vent and if

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there are pyroclastic flows they're measured

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anywhere between nine and some studies suggest

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maybe 15 kilometers from the source now one of

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the other problems is that source the point where

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you're like okay that's the where the bad stuff

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comes from and we're going to measure a buffer

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zone around that that moves during the eruptions

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and that's something i've spent a lot of time

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looking at and they can move several kilometers

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within it which means your hazard zone is moving

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And there's also the possibility, if it has a

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tall plume, some of the few historic eruptions

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of these we've seen can have quite tall ash plumes

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that would then affect air traffic and then blow

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ash and dust downstream. Now, it's not going

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to be the biggest, scariest eruption, but they're

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frequently in locations where you don't have

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the smoking gun, as it were. You can point over

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and say, that big cone, that's the problem. They

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tend to be in distributed volcanic fields wherein

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we have a bunch of little cones and we don't

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quite know where the next one will be. And so

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preparation is even harder. So your threat zone

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might be smaller once you know where it is, but

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half of it is not knowing where it is within

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a several hundred square kilometer area. Suddenly

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it makes the whole problem larger, even if the

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individual eruption if conveniently located,

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might only affect a few people, but if inconveniently

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located, is really bad. Okay, we're going to

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get off topic already, and I love it. So that's

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not exactly where I thought this was going to

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go. I got two questions. First one's probably

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quick and easy. Like, how big of an eruption

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could we be talking about here? Like, are we

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talking Mount St. Helens size? Like, that's what,

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one cubic kilometer in 1980? Are we talking something

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half that size? Base it off of Mount St. Helens

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scale instead of the metric. So one cubic kilometer

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worth of melt is probably the biggest that we

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would expect for these types of eruptions. And

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most of them are smaller. So we're probably talking

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one step down on that volcanic explosivity index

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to, you know, I guess it would be a four on the

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VEI scale. So volume wise, individual eruptions.

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not that intimidating. We call them small volume

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volcanoes as one of the many designators when

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we're sort of lumping in, say, a scoriac cone

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or a mar, or we also have a handful of sort of

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in -between features where if the mar is this

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excavating volcano and a scoriac cone is a small

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volume constructive eruption, there's some in

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-betweens that we can get into if you want, but

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we can also just leave on the side for now. Think

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of it as a continuum. Yeah. It's like this in

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every science. The deeper you get, the more messy

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it gets, I think. But I wanted to get into something

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messy as an aside because you mentioned distributed

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volcanic fields. Now, the vast majority of listeners

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are going to be familiar with the Cascades. They

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have these locuses or concentrated points of...

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stratovolcanoes they're all concentrated there

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is a section in the cascades which is not so

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concentrated and that's around south sister in

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the bend area i can't remember off the top of

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my head what that field is called and around

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newberry there uh well there's the boring volcanic

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field which is bend and then there's the cluster

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south of newberry there's also some to the north

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they're kind of scattered behind the arc if you

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think of the main chain of volcanoes as the arc

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then behind that you tend to get little clusters

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and there's hundreds of them and sometimes they're

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in well -known groups like near newberry and

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sometimes it's one or two little little dudes

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hanging out by themselves and so when they're

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next to the cascades like that um they kind of

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get lumped in in some of the maps we make or

00:13:25.269 --> 00:13:29.360
when we're doing hazards But there are also distributed

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volcanic fields that are further from an obvious

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tectonic boundary. So in Utah, in Nevada, in

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Arizona, California, we've got some of these

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distributed fields is kind of the term we're

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leaning towards right now, where the majority

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of activity is one of these small volume vents

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of a range of different eruptive styles. And

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they're scattered around and there can be several

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hundred. over a broad region or you can get into

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colorado where there's like three and they still

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need to somehow be compared to something so that's

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why we use this term right but the more long

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-lived ones not necessarily the cascades i think

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there's lots in mexico and new mexico as well

00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.360
like what creates like these long lived with

00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.799
process wise like creating these distributed

00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.419
volcanic fields Yeah, so we need two things.

00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.779
We need a system for generating magma, and then

00:14:23.779 --> 00:14:27.580
we need pathways to the surface. So frequently,

00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:30.799
these are occurring in areas of extension where

00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.759
the crust is being pulled apart, and we have

00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:36.980
slight depressurization of the mantle beneath

00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:42.279
it, which then there's faults and fractures created

00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:45.139
by that extension, which tend to dictate the

00:14:45.139 --> 00:14:47.500
position of where these volcanoes might be above

00:14:47.500 --> 00:14:51.120
them. and so behind some volcanic arcs we get

00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.879
that extension sometimes there's larger tectonic

00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:57.200
processes like the basin and range in new mexico

00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:01.340
a lot of the distributed volcanic features are

00:15:01.340 --> 00:15:03.519
associated with the rio grande rift which is

00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.879
a slightly more concentrated zone of extension

00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:10.440
we could leave north america and there's examples

00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:17.009
in south america there's in the philippines You

00:15:17.009 --> 00:15:20.389
can basically find them on most continents. France

00:15:20.389 --> 00:15:24.110
has some older ones. There's examples in Spain

00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:28.690
that are also older, but related mostly to extension,

00:15:28.870 --> 00:15:32.330
though that extension could be connected to subduction

00:15:32.330 --> 00:15:36.669
or it could be other tectonic processes. The

00:15:36.669 --> 00:15:39.090
challenge to remember with earth and plate tectonics

00:15:39.090 --> 00:15:41.490
is that they're all happening at the same time.

00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:45.899
bit of earth has had a long volcanic history

00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:47.899
so they could be really old fractures that are

00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:51.440
being leveraged they could be reactivated due

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:55.840
to some new tension related to a different tectonic

00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.059
process and that's where we find these is sort

00:15:58.059 --> 00:16:02.139
of complicated adjacent tectonic provinces that

00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:05.480
usually are more extensional than not okay so

00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:07.440
for those who need a refresher course you can

00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.740
go back into the whimsical wavelengths Episode

00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.320
library and there we've talked about how we generate

00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:15.720
magma lots of times So let me just rephrase this

00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:17.740
and hopefully I've got everything we can summarize

00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:20.259
and then move towards the paper, which is on

00:16:20.259 --> 00:16:23.659
Mars And I meant the planet not the volcano.

00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:27.240
So I guess first thing we need is some kind of

00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.019
Feature that allows more magma to come towards

00:16:30.019 --> 00:16:32.519
the surface usually extensional usually as part

00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:37.539
of some other system often to do with back arc

00:16:37.539 --> 00:16:39.679
basins so you could be getting a number of different

00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:41.779
sources as to why you have an increase in magma

00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:44.559
there. It's distributed so it's not coming out

00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:47.799
as a locus and I think there's one part we missed

00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:50.379
is that you need to have some kind of shallow

00:16:50.379 --> 00:16:53.120
groundwater to have the interaction. Yeah we

00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:55.500
hadn't actually hit the part about why we have

00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:58.000
excavation with these is that it does need to

00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.080
interact with groundwater or ground ice and that

00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.220
water can be in your traditional aquifer. in

00:17:04.220 --> 00:17:08.119
some nice stratigraphic unit water hanging out

00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:12.619
between sand grains or in faults can be also

00:17:12.619 --> 00:17:16.279
associated with things like permafrost or if

00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.880
you have a swampy environment you can also create

00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.000
this kind of feature so the idea here is that

00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:26.019
you interact with enough water that it all flashes

00:17:26.019 --> 00:17:28.420
to steam and that steam needs to expand and then

00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:31.180
it expands so fast that it causes failure of

00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:33.880
the rock This is the fun part where I can say

00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:37.900
yes and. So steam we know is powerful. We've

00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:40.400
made engines based on this steam expansion, right?

00:17:40.460 --> 00:17:42.859
It does a lot of work. But one of the fun things

00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:45.359
we've gotten to learn by taking molten magma

00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.359
and trying to blow it up is magma plus water

00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.460
does not automatically make explosion. If you've

00:17:52.460 --> 00:17:54.940
ever watched some of those fun videos from Hawaii

00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:57.319
where lava is going directly into the ocean.

00:17:57.700 --> 00:18:01.079
We also had videos of this from La Palma in Tenerife,

00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:04.920
the Canary Islands in 2021. It doesn't blow up

00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.160
all the time. It kind of waits. It's intermittent.

00:18:07.420 --> 00:18:09.859
So what's different? So it's not strictly...

00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:12.000
only steam expansion. The steam's definitely

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.460
contributing, but there is a heat transfer process

00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:19.220
that is faster than even steam expansion, which

00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:21.440
is kind of mind -boggling when you first encounter

00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:26.799
it. But this transfer of heat away from the lava

00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.279
into water. Water is the most efficient coolant

00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.400
we are aware of on this planet. It's one of those

00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:33.839
reminders that like Earth is wild because we

00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:35.759
have all this liquid water, which doesn't behave

00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.660
like all other materials, right? Like when you

00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:41.299
freeze it, it becomes uh less dense which is

00:18:41.299 --> 00:18:44.119
unlike most other materials and when in its liquid

00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:46.660
form it is it's this really effective coolant

00:18:46.660 --> 00:18:49.579
so it sucks the heat out of the lava fast enough

00:18:49.579 --> 00:18:53.279
to shock it and that shock then releases mechanical

00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.700
energy so it's a thermal mechanical shock that

00:18:56.700 --> 00:18:58.940
results in the production of shock waves which

00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:00.720
breaks more things which lets more water in which

00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.339
leads to more shocks which also produces the

00:19:03.339 --> 00:19:07.119
steam so this combined leads to a faster explosion

00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.680
than you can produce in other magmatic systems.

00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:13.640
And there's like a sweet spot with water pressure,

00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:17.420
I gather, like depth inside the earth or depth

00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:21.180
underneath the ocean. Yeah, so the heat transfer

00:19:21.180 --> 00:19:23.859
happens when you have liquid water in touch with

00:19:23.859 --> 00:19:26.900
the magma directly. But as anybody who's ever

00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:29.240
thrown a little bit of water onto a frying pan

00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:33.259
has seen that that formation of vapor or steam

00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:36.220
occurs rapidly and then actually insulates the

00:19:36.220 --> 00:19:38.420
water from the pants. So then you have this little

00:19:38.420 --> 00:19:40.740
dancing water droplet or the Leidenfrost effect.

00:19:41.059 --> 00:19:44.359
That water vapor actually is why most magma water

00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:49.059
contact is kind of meh. And maybe some steam

00:19:49.059 --> 00:19:50.799
is produced, but if it's not trapped or anything

00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:53.019
else, it's not necessarily dangerous. And this

00:19:53.019 --> 00:19:56.019
is one of the reasons that these eruptions are

00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:58.180
so interesting to me is understanding both the

00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:02.089
physics of it and the consequences. And so when

00:20:02.089 --> 00:20:04.829
the vapor film's not there, it should be more

00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.069
explosive. So you could think at those great

00:20:07.069 --> 00:20:09.910
pressures, shouldn't it be, if there's no vapor

00:20:09.910 --> 00:20:11.470
forming, shouldn't it be explosive all the time?

00:20:11.549 --> 00:20:13.750
Also not necessarily. So there's still something

00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:16.630
we're working on, the conditions that are ideal

00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:20.089
for this rapid heat transfer and the balance

00:20:20.089 --> 00:20:23.150
of energy release from the different aspects

00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:25.730
of it. But experimentally, we sort of played

00:20:25.730 --> 00:20:29.880
around with water temperature, salinity. all

00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:34.200
of that does act as a knob on how explosive this

00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.920
is and how much of that magma temperature that

00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:39.740
heat available in the budget gets turned into

00:20:39.740 --> 00:20:42.980
explosive energy and the answer is it's not very

00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:46.039
efficient it's just really dramatic for the amount

00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:50.140
and the speed at which it happens so the depth

00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:52.420
beneath the ocean is going to affect that the

00:20:53.549 --> 00:20:56.809
availability of water in the system but it's

00:20:56.809 --> 00:20:59.730
not some perfect ratio so we had some sort of

00:20:59.730 --> 00:21:01.710
starting models and we're like this sounds reasonable

00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:05.589
but of course as you said earlier as we dig into

00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:07.869
it it gets messier and messier and how do we

00:21:07.869 --> 00:21:10.849
turn this into usable science right that can

00:21:10.849 --> 00:21:14.170
that can help us be safer that can help us to

00:21:14.170 --> 00:21:17.730
plan for it or you know inspire some weird new

00:21:17.730 --> 00:21:21.480
steam engine of the future Speaking of steam

00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:24.819
engines on Mars, I guess these sorts of things

00:21:24.819 --> 00:21:26.599
are really important to recognize in the rock

00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:28.279
record because it tells you something about the

00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.400
environment, right? Absolutely. It's a great

00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:34.720
way to reconstruct other aspects of it besides

00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.460
just the magma. Okay, so one last stop before

00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.240
we get to the paper. Mar locations, volcanic

00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.059
locations all around the Earth, there's a database,

00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.519
a shape database to help you kind of like find

00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.630
them. do you also train this on AI as well to

00:21:51.630 --> 00:21:53.890
be able to search the earth for these types of

00:21:53.890 --> 00:21:56.930
shapes? That's a great next step. So I call it

00:21:56.930 --> 00:21:59.109
the marvelous database because it's Mar volcano

00:21:59.109 --> 00:22:02.430
location and shape. And one of the things we

00:22:02.430 --> 00:22:05.349
had to figure out is like, are all Mars similar?

00:22:06.009 --> 00:22:08.569
And so we just started looking for the prettiest

00:22:08.569 --> 00:22:10.930
ones around the planet. And I think we have a

00:22:10.930 --> 00:22:12.509
pretty decent catalog at this point. There's

00:22:12.509 --> 00:22:17.690
about 435 and all continents are included. We,

00:22:18.220 --> 00:22:21.160
No, there's more, but geology loves to rewrite

00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.920
the history that it's leaving behind, so some

00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:26.319
are missing. And I continue to have students

00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.640
helping me with this. We're still doing it manually

00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:32.160
because while circle recognition, pattern recognition

00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.819
is actually a great application of machine learning,

00:22:35.019 --> 00:22:39.420
we need a proper training data set. And 430 is

00:22:39.420 --> 00:22:43.380
a little on the low side for a solid model. So

00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:46.480
I need to also have good databases of what I

00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:51.269
don't want. as a way to rectify the the absence

00:22:51.269 --> 00:22:54.650
of sufficient quantity of the variability we

00:22:54.650 --> 00:22:57.150
could find in the original data set at least

00:22:57.150 --> 00:22:58.509
this is what i've been told by my colleagues

00:22:58.509 --> 00:22:59.849
when they're like you should do machine learning

00:22:59.849 --> 00:23:01.670
and i said here's my data set and they go we

00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:05.930
need more so we're doing it the old way or the

00:23:05.930 --> 00:23:08.630
old -fashioned way which is hunting for them

00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:11.380
using people's papers that have said you know

00:23:11.380 --> 00:23:13.059
we know this is mars somebody's been there and

00:23:13.059 --> 00:23:15.279
checked it hunting through google earth and then

00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.660
trying to back that up so that we know that features

00:23:17.660 --> 00:23:20.779
what we think it is because fascinatingly earth's

00:23:20.779 --> 00:23:23.339
really good at making circular lakes there's

00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:27.400
other ways to do it glaciers melting permafrost

00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:32.599
meteorite impacts um anthropogenic things we

00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.019
we like circles it's human so they're out there

00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:38.150
too And so this is the challenge also once we

00:23:38.150 --> 00:23:41.890
leave Earth is there's other circles out there.

00:23:42.049 --> 00:23:45.549
And how do we tell them apart? So we need these

00:23:45.549 --> 00:23:48.730
sort of anchor points of confidence. And that's

00:23:48.730 --> 00:23:51.990
what Marvelous was hoping to be. And in future

00:23:51.990 --> 00:23:55.130
versions, I'm trying to add in some of that continua

00:23:55.130 --> 00:23:58.349
I told you about where like, they're not all

00:23:58.349 --> 00:24:01.710
exactly the same. And the fun thing is, while

00:24:01.710 --> 00:24:04.029
they're circles, they're not just simple circles.

00:24:04.150 --> 00:24:06.410
Sometimes they look like Mickey Mouse or a peanut.

00:24:06.769 --> 00:24:09.990
It's compound structures. And that's when I got

00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:11.750
really excited about looking for it elsewhere.

00:24:12.569 --> 00:24:15.349
Are we ready to go to Mars? Have you thought

00:24:15.349 --> 00:24:17.650
of trying to do machine learning in a slightly

00:24:17.650 --> 00:24:19.690
different way? Instead of only building a giant

00:24:19.690 --> 00:24:22.230
database, using that database of what you have

00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:24.490
and overlying it with other layers like heat

00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:27.970
flow? So the machine learning can make the...

00:24:28.650 --> 00:24:32.049
inference or tying things like heat flow or structure

00:24:32.049 --> 00:24:36.349
to the circles themselves and only where it finds

00:24:36.349 --> 00:24:39.329
the same pattern that it can pull it up. Right.

00:24:39.430 --> 00:24:42.230
Having multiple tie points. We haven't found

00:24:42.230 --> 00:24:44.349
the right companion data set. It could be multiple.

00:24:44.549 --> 00:24:48.650
I mean, we use lots in mineral prospectivity.

00:24:49.369 --> 00:24:52.710
Yeah. So I think, I think that is a next step

00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:54.529
and it's a combination of finding the right data

00:24:54.529 --> 00:24:57.029
sets, finding the right partner and getting them

00:24:57.029 --> 00:24:59.230
to trial it. And it's been the folks who were

00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:02.930
keen had an existing workflow. They wanted to

00:25:02.930 --> 00:25:05.069
throw me in and that's where it's not going to

00:25:05.069 --> 00:25:09.960
work yet. so what i keep doing is trying to look

00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:11.880
for other patterns in it so that's that's the

00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.400
other benefit of marvelous is in addition to

00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:16.700
its location and its shape we're keeping track

00:25:16.700 --> 00:25:19.240
of age we're keeping track of composition we're

00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.579
keeping back of um regional context you know

00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:24.980
are we and i tried things like latitude longitude

00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:28.019
elevation and we're sort of iterating and We

00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:30.000
keep going back to fill in more of these data

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.140
sets as things get published or people send them

00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:34.660
to me. And that way we can look for additional

00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:39.640
patterns besides just where they are to evaluate

00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:41.420
if there's something else useful hidden in it.

00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:46.160
So I tried tectonic setting. I tried what we

00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:47.579
really need is more age and more compositions.

00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:51.099
And I think that might be where we find this

00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:52.539
companion data set that you were talking about

00:25:52.539 --> 00:25:55.019
that we could use as a separate check. Heat flows

00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:56.700
hard on these because there's no magma source

00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:59.960
anymore. They're done. Right, if it's old. And

00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:02.299
they're all such small volume that their thermal

00:26:02.299 --> 00:26:05.099
signature would be quite little. I was more thinking

00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:08.279
heat flow is like a regional scale. So if you're

00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:10.279
looking for something that is potentially active

00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:12.160
in the Holocene, then you're going to have an

00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:15.259
increased heat flow of the whole area. For instance,

00:26:15.500 --> 00:26:18.079
the Cascade Arc has a high heat flow, right?

00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:20.579
So that way when you're telling to search the

00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:23.640
whole world, it's not like going to Kansas and

00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:25.220
going, well, there's a circle there. You're like,

00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:27.450
well. It has no heat flow, so it won't exist

00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:30.410
type thing. But we do have some fun diatremes

00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:33.329
there that are not Mars. They're... Kimberlites?

00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:37.990
Yeah, but non -diamondiferous. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,

00:26:38.049 --> 00:26:40.230
we're off topic. It's okay. That's the whole

00:26:40.230 --> 00:26:42.730
point. That's why I have a skeleton of a blueprint.

00:26:43.009 --> 00:26:45.369
And I'm moving... Thermal inertia. Thermal inertia

00:26:45.369 --> 00:26:48.369
is the fun one. And planetary scale, it's actually

00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:50.029
easier to do thermal inertia on Mars than it

00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:53.589
is on Earth. Huh. There's just a lot of... What?

00:26:54.099 --> 00:26:55.680
Okay, well, we're switching to Mars, and I'll

00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:57.960
come back to that in just a second, because the

00:26:57.960 --> 00:26:59.519
paper at the heart of this episode is identification

00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:04.000
of candidate Martian Mars in the area of Coles

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:08.720
and Nephentis Amethys. I pronounced it wrong.

00:27:08.740 --> 00:27:10.420
That's okay. With the extension to Mars as a

00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:14.059
proxy for groundwater and ice depths. So Mars,

00:27:14.299 --> 00:27:16.819
the red planet. And I think we've already stated

00:27:16.819 --> 00:27:18.759
why we want to look on Mars. I mean, we want

00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:21.920
to find water. We want to find what happened

00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:26.920
to Mars over time. But thermal inertia, what

00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:31.440
is that in context of a planetary scale? Yeah,

00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:36.319
so we can look at the daytime thermal emissivity

00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.720
of a planet. That is the long wave infrared wavelengths.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.519
So imagine like those old coil stoves. I know

00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:45.880
some folks still have them, right? That heat

00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.200
energy come off it. You're actually seeing it

00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.000
glow red. That's the emissivity. And so we can

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:52.740
measure that in the day and we can measure that

00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:55.680
at night. And so as the sun's hitting a planetary

00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.779
surface, rocks warm up, soil warms up, the whole

00:27:58.779 --> 00:28:01.519
surface will. And depending on the material properties

00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.500
is how long it's going to keep that heat or how

00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:07.059
rapidly it's going to change. And so dense materials

00:28:07.059 --> 00:28:11.259
take longer to heat and loose materials, soils,

00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:13.480
dust, et cetera, are going to change temperature

00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:17.549
more rapidly. So if we're looking for volcanic

00:28:17.549 --> 00:28:21.849
deposits, we would expect them to be loose materials.

00:28:22.190 --> 00:28:24.109
If we're looking for lava flows, we're expecting

00:28:24.109 --> 00:28:26.190
them to be dense. So they should have different

00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:28.809
thermal inertia, which is basically comparing

00:28:28.809 --> 00:28:32.430
that day -night pair. So what's fun now with

00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:35.609
all the satellites we have living at Mars collecting

00:28:35.609 --> 00:28:38.720
data, we have a pretty decent... planetary scale

00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:40.880
thermal inertia data set. And so that can be

00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.680
useful for looking at changes in basically material

00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:47.119
properties across the planet. On Earth, we have

00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.759
lots of moisture in the soil and plants and things

00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:52.240
like that that make thermal inertia a little

00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:56.000
messier. Still can be used, but it's not as easy

00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.859
for a whole planet wide comparison. But there

00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:02.660
is some problems on Mars because there's lots

00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:06.500
of dust moving around on the surface. So it's

00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:09.039
you know, still a geologic environment and still

00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:11.140
messy in all the ways to make our brains work

00:29:11.140 --> 00:29:16.059
harder. That's awesome. Okay, so back to Mars.

00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:19.640
We have volcanoes and we've had water on Mars.

00:29:19.779 --> 00:29:21.940
This is what we infer from the data that we have.

00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:25.200
So those two things are similar to Earth. But

00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.319
what about that volcanic activity in and of itself?

00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:31.279
Is that volcanic activity similar to Earth? And

00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:34.559
what does gravity have? to do with it all i mean

00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.619
are there any other things that are different

00:29:36.619 --> 00:29:39.660
with respect to martian volcanoes and the processes

00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:43.700
that will affect a mar type eruption um such

00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:46.279
as gravity like would it change its shape because

00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:49.079
if shape is how you're identifying them what's

00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:50.680
out there that's going to change how you look

00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:54.640
at them okay so i won't answer all the questions

00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.299
you just opened because some are rabbit holes

00:29:56.299 --> 00:29:59.220
let's stay focused i'm going to try yeah sorry

00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:03.019
sometimes i'm my own worst enemy um Well, and

00:30:03.019 --> 00:30:05.839
also as I can't turn professor off, I always

00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:07.819
have a need to make sure there's a root understanding.

00:30:07.900 --> 00:30:11.299
But let's let's stick with Mars on Mars. And

00:30:11.299 --> 00:30:13.700
can I really play this game of I know what they

00:30:13.700 --> 00:30:15.400
look like on Earth. So this is what they should

00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:17.460
look like on Mars, right? That's the that's a

00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:19.579
great question. When we're thinking about it.

00:30:19.950 --> 00:30:23.670
Our ideas of magmatic compositions for Mars,

00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:26.609
we're expecting them to be still similar. Silicate

00:30:26.609 --> 00:30:30.910
melts probably pretty mafic based on some control

00:30:30.910 --> 00:30:33.809
data we have from meteorites, from satellite

00:30:33.809 --> 00:30:36.349
remote sensing that indicates we should expect

00:30:36.349 --> 00:30:39.210
some nice runny silicate melts like on Earth.

00:30:39.369 --> 00:30:41.430
So for the majority of Mars, which have that

00:30:41.430 --> 00:30:44.990
composition, that's not a problem. As the magma

00:30:44.990 --> 00:30:48.430
rises and encounters groundwater or Ground ice

00:30:48.430 --> 00:30:51.049
might be the case on Mars, and it explodes. It's

00:30:51.049 --> 00:30:54.349
then going to be lifting rock above it. And so

00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:56.789
your question was, does gravity matter? Yes,

00:30:56.789 --> 00:30:59.990
but what's it going to do? So we have a good

00:30:59.990 --> 00:31:03.009
idea of ballistic particle, like take yourself

00:31:03.009 --> 00:31:05.109
back to physics, right? When you're just like,

00:31:05.190 --> 00:31:08.390
if I throw a rock from here, it's going to fly

00:31:08.390 --> 00:31:10.450
in a parabolic arc, and gravity is one of those

00:31:10.450 --> 00:31:13.369
major controls for how far away it can go. So

00:31:13.369 --> 00:31:16.680
that should influence it somewhat. But the challenge

00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.240
I was trying to point out earlier from a hazard

00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:22.579
perspective is that it also moves. So if you

00:31:22.579 --> 00:31:24.380
have a point source and you see how far away

00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:26.640
things go, you can back calculate that source

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.099
location. But if that source location likes to

00:31:30.099 --> 00:31:34.440
move around, you know, sideways, vertically,

00:31:35.019 --> 00:31:37.420
you know, left, right, east, west, north, south,

00:31:37.460 --> 00:31:40.140
all the options are possible. When you look at

00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:42.720
that deposit, you start going, well, is it actually

00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.519
bigger or smaller than on Earth? Generally, most

00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:49.460
things Martian are bigger. So that's a good go

00:31:49.460 --> 00:31:52.319
to. So my search parameters, I was like, I'm

00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:54.559
just going to look bigger than I expect on Earth.

00:31:55.339 --> 00:31:59.319
And also atmospheric pressure is different. So

00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:01.420
that's going to affect things like drag, which

00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:03.759
is again going to influence whether you're going

00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:07.960
to produce big poofy columns of ash rising that

00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:09.960
could collapse. Are we going to have more things

00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.619
just going up and right back down? It's going

00:32:12.619 --> 00:32:14.680
to affect some of those physics that would affect

00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.339
the distribution of material around it and how

00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:20.259
steep a wall you can keep in your hole in the

00:32:20.259 --> 00:32:24.380
ground. So the answer is yes. But unlike with

00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:26.960
scoriacones, where we're mainly just piling up

00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.640
debris around a point source, it's harder to

00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:33.579
just adjust the model. So it comes back to let's

00:32:33.579 --> 00:32:36.960
look for them and see what we find, knowing that

00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.599
we're going to have to look a little bit broader

00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:41.380
than what we see on Earth. And the main tie point,

00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:43.900
why I felt confident that I could do this, goes

00:32:43.900 --> 00:32:47.180
back to that Mars aren't just circles. We have

00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:49.940
circles, but it's something like 13 % or less.

00:32:51.450 --> 00:32:55.450
of the database were simple circles. And so that

00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:58.750
leaves us the majority, which are compound structures.

00:32:59.390 --> 00:33:02.150
And of those structures, when you can see that

00:33:02.150 --> 00:33:05.309
it's intersecting circles, like a little mouse

00:33:05.309 --> 00:33:07.910
character with a copyright on it that I don't

00:33:07.910 --> 00:33:11.549
know if we can name. Yeah, we can. The original

00:33:11.549 --> 00:33:15.789
has entered the common license. Public domain.

00:33:15.910 --> 00:33:18.390
Okay. So if you have a Mickey Mouse shape, or

00:33:18.390 --> 00:33:20.910
if you have a snowman, where you have these overlapping

00:33:20.910 --> 00:33:22.809
circles and you can recognize those discrete

00:33:22.809 --> 00:33:26.309
circles, that is a unique shape. Other holes

00:33:26.309 --> 00:33:28.930
in the ground on Mars, especially impact craters,

00:33:28.970 --> 00:33:32.589
which are all over the place, they tend to be

00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:36.990
more elliptical to circular. The vast majority

00:33:36.990 --> 00:33:40.150
are circular. Funky shapes do exist, and a lot

00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:42.230
of the funky shapes we find tend to be volcanic.

00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:46.299
We're going to look in a specific size range,

00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:49.619
slightly augmented for Mars. We're going to look

00:33:49.619 --> 00:33:53.519
for them being distributed. So not all on some

00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.319
larger edifice, but sort of spread around and

00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:58.400
ideally with other volcanic things with them.

00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:02.440
So I found we started in Arenicolis because somebody

00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:05.140
else said, I see these cute little cones that

00:34:05.140 --> 00:34:07.079
could be scoriac cones. Maybe they have a little

00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.000
bit of magma water interaction to make them have

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:13.019
bigger summit craters. And nearby, I saw these

00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:16.519
really big, holes, some of which looked like

00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:18.460
compound circular structures. And I said, OK,

00:34:18.579 --> 00:34:21.719
how many can we find? And we were inclusive at

00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:23.679
the beginning. And then we made this checklist

00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:27.159
of what is an inclusive criteria versus something

00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:29.400
that's going to exclude it. And so I had to get

00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.679
to know impact craters better, especially when

00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:35.619
you have an impact. The debris that flies from

00:34:35.619 --> 00:34:38.420
that can also make impacts. And those are messier

00:34:38.420 --> 00:34:40.159
than the first one that's flying at the really

00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:43.199
high velocities. The secondary craters, what

00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:45.199
they're called, are a little bit more irregular,

00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:48.179
but they tend to all radiate away from some point

00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:51.260
source. They tend to be really asymmetrical where

00:34:51.260 --> 00:34:53.219
a lot of the debris is on one side and not the

00:34:53.219 --> 00:34:55.719
other. And so we could use that sort of contextual

00:34:55.719 --> 00:35:00.099
information to check off what was a good candidate

00:35:00.099 --> 00:35:03.440
from something that was probably something else.

00:35:03.699 --> 00:35:05.619
Did I actually answer the question? I don't know.

00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:10.400
Yeah. almost answered the next question too okay

00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:14.199
first off how many did you find so we started

00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:17.280
in the order of like 70 holes in the ground we're

00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:20.639
like we have holes and then we we narrowed it

00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:23.719
down and so there's 12 that i think are meeting

00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:27.099
the criteria and what's exciting about that is

00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:30.440
So far, there isn't a better explanation for

00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:32.900
them. Now, I'm one of the few people who've stared

00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:34.559
at them closely and somebody else could very

00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:36.440
easily come in and look at them and spot something

00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:38.619
I missed. But that's the fun of science, right?

00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:40.780
It's like I get to make this list and say, all

00:35:40.780 --> 00:35:44.079
right, here you go, guys. Go check them harder.

00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.599
Let's see what else it could be. And I also have

00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:49.579
people who are like, okay, based on your rules,

00:35:49.659 --> 00:35:51.239
I'm going to go check my holes in the ground

00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:53.139
in a different part of the planet. And we'll

00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:55.840
see if this system works elsewhere. And it's

00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:00.039
kind of fun. To wait and see, oh, I wonder what's

00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:02.739
going to happen. And the longer people go, well,

00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.719
seems reasonable. You kind of go, really? I thought

00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.539
I was on a planet. I'm nowhere near that. But

00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:11.920
we can try that. And it's a great opportunity

00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:14.599
for testing my models about Earth. It's a great

00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:17.739
opportunity for us to think about how well we

00:36:17.739 --> 00:36:20.179
understand those other processes that I was excluding.

00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:24.800
And even that little bit of going outside of

00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.920
what we know to like maybe. still helps us learn

00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.760
and is part of this whole scientific endeavor.

00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:32.119
Okay, well, taking this full circle, how does

00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:35.280
this now change your thoughts when applying,

00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:39.239
looking for this stuff on Earth? So we've had

00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:43.219
some questions about the role of ice versus water.

00:36:43.940 --> 00:36:47.260
And I wanted to do some experiments, and we've

00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:49.780
sort of goofed around with lava and ice. I'm

00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:51.699
saying... Wait, wait, wait. You goofed around

00:36:51.699 --> 00:36:54.460
with lava and ice. I never thought I'd hear that

00:36:54.460 --> 00:36:58.679
as a phrase. The reason I'm using such a flippant

00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:02.099
term is it's sort of the preliminary tests to

00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:05.639
see what's feasible before I get into some really

00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:07.440
rigorous. We're going to test all these variables

00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:11.179
because I've worked with molten lava between

00:37:11.179 --> 00:37:16.429
60 milliliters and 60 liters in. dry and wet

00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:19.210
conditions and we had some pretty good constraints

00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:21.969
on how it's going to handle so that we could

00:37:21.969 --> 00:37:23.909
design the experiments and then iterate through

00:37:23.909 --> 00:37:26.829
it. So we were looking at the roles of like porosity

00:37:26.829 --> 00:37:30.030
and permeability. So how the water's in the material

00:37:30.030 --> 00:37:33.130
that's hosting it and whether it can move through

00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:35.750
it so that we could understand steam formation

00:37:35.750 --> 00:37:38.590
and how this moves around. And we're like, all

00:37:38.590 --> 00:37:41.869
right, so when we do ice, how should we do this?

00:37:41.969 --> 00:37:45.119
And I made what I call sediment popsicles. and

00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.639
just froze sediment and water together and to

00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:51.400
control how much we had i said let's go ahead

00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.639
and just saturate the sediment right so there's

00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:58.179
just as much water as can fit between those particles

00:37:58.179 --> 00:38:01.559
and then we freeze it and i was thinking oh when

00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.400
we did plain ice experiments where it was lava

00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:06.840
plus water the what the ice melts we have to

00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:09.099
capture the water so we could calculate the thermal

00:38:09.099 --> 00:38:11.460
budget how much energy was put into melting the

00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:17.000
ice and so we spent an hour or two to try and

00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:19.420
slope the whole surface to catch the water in

00:38:19.420 --> 00:38:22.800
a bucket and then there was no melt water because

00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.500
with the particular sand we were using the permeability

00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:29.099
is really low so the steam sort of forms and

00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:31.199
stays in the sand and then eventually leaks out

00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:33.780
so we're not there's no water pouring out of

00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:36.119
this system oh okay so that's what I mean by

00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:38.539
goofing because we have to do some of this initial

00:38:38.539 --> 00:38:41.920
testing to be like well what are we gonna measure

00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:44.719
when we want to be able to say something systematic

00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.460
about this. So we haven't done nearly as many

00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:50.719
as I'd like to start calling it a true experiment

00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:54.159
yet. But in that process and in the process of

00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:57.000
looking at Mars, thinking about, well, what's

00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.460
the difference when it's solid and needs to be

00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:03.440
melted? Because ice is not as good a coolant

00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:07.619
due to it being solid and water having the right

00:39:07.619 --> 00:39:11.119
heat capacity. to be able to transfer energy

00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:14.719
so effectively. So we still have to melt it to

00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:18.679
get the fun interactions or the dynamic interactions

00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.400
that produce these explosions and could excavate

00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:29.460
the ground. So that step matters. It's forcing

00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:31.019
us to then go look at Earth and we're like, well,

00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:33.360
where did we have ground ice? We know it's happened

00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.579
on Earth. There's the biggest in the world actually

00:39:36.579 --> 00:39:40.780
are six kilometers across in the Seward Peninsula

00:39:40.780 --> 00:39:44.940
of Alaska. And are they big because they're permafrost

00:39:44.940 --> 00:39:49.679
or are they big because of other things? And

00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.239
is it permafrost during the eruption or is it

00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:54.989
permafrost melting afterwards? And of course,

00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:57.670
this being out in the rural Seward Peninsula,

00:39:57.869 --> 00:40:00.949
this is like helicopter work and bears and there's

00:40:00.949 --> 00:40:03.090
all these massive lakes and it's boggy and it's...

00:40:03.090 --> 00:40:06.510
You're not getting there quickly. So there hasn't

00:40:06.510 --> 00:40:08.809
been as much work on them. So then I started

00:40:08.809 --> 00:40:10.650
going, well, are they in the rock record? So

00:40:10.650 --> 00:40:12.869
now I'm going back to Marvelous and I'm looking

00:40:12.869 --> 00:40:15.829
for how many occurred in older permafrost that

00:40:15.829 --> 00:40:18.409
maybe isn't permafrost right now and we can go

00:40:18.409 --> 00:40:21.010
work on it without damaging it or being at risk

00:40:21.010 --> 00:40:23.719
of bears. Is there enough methane in the permafrost

00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.639
there? Just randomly came to my mind. Right.

00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:28.739
What does methane have to do with the story?

00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:32.119
I don't know. For listeners, there is the ability

00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:34.559
to store a lot of methane in permafrost. In fact,

00:40:34.659 --> 00:40:37.139
they have methane explosions in some areas of

00:40:37.139 --> 00:40:39.199
Russia that they have craters for that are not

00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.900
volcanic. Which make fun holes in the ground.

00:40:42.019 --> 00:40:44.989
They do. What makes them different? They tend

00:40:44.989 --> 00:40:47.010
to not throw out as much stuff so they don't

00:40:47.010 --> 00:40:48.869
have as big a crater rims. But I had to go through

00:40:48.869 --> 00:40:51.090
that exercise. So like I want to be a volcanologist,

00:40:51.190 --> 00:40:53.690
right? I care about. But think of all the things

00:40:53.690 --> 00:40:56.070
in just this conversation we've had to get to

00:40:56.070 --> 00:40:57.949
to solve this problem, which is why I love it,

00:40:57.969 --> 00:41:00.690
because I'm forced to learn about periglacial

00:41:00.690 --> 00:41:02.449
environments, which is, you know, near glacial

00:41:02.449 --> 00:41:05.409
environments, permafrost, methane explosion holes.

00:41:07.590 --> 00:41:11.579
And and then thinking about. What would these

00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:14.219
other compounds do? And if we want to go even

00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:18.360
more complicated, on Mars, they have CO2 ice.

00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:22.940
So if we're dealing with CO2, how well does that

00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:26.639
work? I haven't goofed with CO2 ice and lava

00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:29.860
yet, but I will someday in my career. Or somebody

00:41:29.860 --> 00:41:31.159
else will, and they'll show it to me, right?

00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:33.119
So I could wait for somebody else to do this.

00:41:33.179 --> 00:41:36.320
There's only so much time one human can do, and

00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.380
so it has to be this collaborative... Collaborative...

00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:43.960
effort to get all of the fields we need the physics

00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:47.719
the geology the atmospheric science the planetary

00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:52.099
science the organic chemists the you know right

00:41:52.099 --> 00:41:55.760
like we have to have friends and we also have

00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:59.320
to chip away at this big problem so that's why

00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:00.820
i like experiments that's why i like planetary

00:42:00.820 --> 00:42:03.900
because it feels very tangible about how you're

00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:08.039
pushing knowledge or testing something. And sometimes

00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:10.380
that can be harder to imagine for folks who only

00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:12.420
took chemistry and like experiments are these

00:42:12.420 --> 00:42:14.539
really set things with like an answer at the

00:42:14.539 --> 00:42:18.380
end. The experiments in geology can be me pouring

00:42:18.380 --> 00:42:20.199
lava on things, see what happens, poke it with

00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:25.500
stick, go yay. But can also be just, I have a

00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:28.269
model. does it make sense with the rocks? And

00:42:28.269 --> 00:42:31.469
we need all of those approaches. And so sometimes

00:42:31.469 --> 00:42:33.389
with planetary, you get to throw a wild idea

00:42:33.389 --> 00:42:36.329
out there and like, but what if guys, and, and

00:42:36.329 --> 00:42:38.710
there's sort of more freedom for that there than

00:42:38.710 --> 00:42:41.510
on earth where it's like, you really need to

00:42:41.510 --> 00:42:44.070
get into it, but it makes you ask bigger picture

00:42:44.070 --> 00:42:46.269
questions. And sometimes we have time to, and

00:42:46.269 --> 00:42:49.369
we're so down the rabbit hole of what we do know

00:42:49.369 --> 00:42:51.369
or what we've been working on for our whole career.

00:42:51.409 --> 00:42:53.610
So I encourage anybody who wants to do planetary

00:42:53.610 --> 00:42:57.320
to. to see how your world might fit into it because

00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:00.840
it will make you really question your fundamentals

00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:03.960
and sometimes just realize oh man we know less

00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:06.599
than we think we do i have work to do here which

00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:08.619
is perfectly fine as a result right it's either

00:43:08.619 --> 00:43:11.940
way you're gonna you're gonna move on yeah i

00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:14.079
feel like getting a phd was more about figuring

00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.780
out what we don't know than really learning anything

00:43:16.780 --> 00:43:21.119
at all okay so let's just try to i've already

00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:23.920
had you here for a while now getting closer to

00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:26.619
the end i feel like we need to ask some questions

00:43:26.619 --> 00:43:30.000
we actually answered some questions hey i've

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:31.840
got no complaints i also learned a lot about

00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:34.699
mars on mars i just i can't get over how that

00:43:34.699 --> 00:43:36.639
sounds it's my new favorite tongue twister of

00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:40.780
all time um but one question that i think we

00:43:40.780 --> 00:43:44.480
need to summarize is let's assume that these

00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:48.739
are mars on mars besides sounding cool what does

00:43:48.739 --> 00:43:53.090
it actually tell us about mars the planet So

00:43:53.090 --> 00:43:55.250
the fun thing about volcanoes for solving other

00:43:55.250 --> 00:43:58.050
research problems is they represent this sort

00:43:58.050 --> 00:44:00.289
of specific moment in time where something happened.

00:44:00.690 --> 00:44:03.610
And at that time, it's telling you about the

00:44:03.610 --> 00:44:05.489
conditions needed to make it happen. There's

00:44:05.489 --> 00:44:09.949
magma and there is this water in whatever form

00:44:09.949 --> 00:44:14.630
it's in and it's underground. So the next step

00:44:14.630 --> 00:44:17.969
I did in the research was like, well, so if these

00:44:17.969 --> 00:44:20.710
two things are true, constrained by my candidate

00:44:20.710 --> 00:44:23.989
Mars on Mars, Can I say something about where

00:44:23.989 --> 00:44:26.690
that water is other than just down there somewhere?

00:44:27.570 --> 00:44:33.289
And this is where I had to look at the old eroded

00:44:33.289 --> 00:44:36.050
volcanoes on Earth rather than just the fresh,

00:44:36.250 --> 00:44:37.949
well -preserved ones, because we needed to look

00:44:37.949 --> 00:44:41.449
at the volcano guts. And this comes to the diatremes.

00:44:41.449 --> 00:44:44.030
So that's that subsurface structure where all

00:44:44.030 --> 00:44:46.619
of the... damage from the explosion is located.

00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:49.320
And they tend to be these sort of conical, you

00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:51.980
know, carrot shaped structures. But the fun thing

00:44:51.980 --> 00:44:54.239
is sometimes it's like those weird carrots you

00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:56.639
get at the farmer's market, not the grocery store

00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.139
one where it's got several shoots in different

00:44:59.139 --> 00:45:02.429
directions. And I needed to know. well, what

00:45:02.429 --> 00:45:05.050
are common shapes and common depths and the angles

00:45:05.050 --> 00:45:08.989
of those? And so I got to look not only at my

00:45:08.989 --> 00:45:11.769
Mar volcanoes, but I borrowed Kimberlite literature

00:45:11.769 --> 00:45:14.650
because in order to get those diamonds and the

00:45:14.650 --> 00:45:17.269
other cool minerals that are with them, we've

00:45:17.269 --> 00:45:19.889
just been excavating down and going, oh, is it

00:45:19.889 --> 00:45:21.429
straight down? Nope, it's slightly off to the

00:45:21.429 --> 00:45:23.789
side. And maybe it's three, again, overlapping

00:45:23.789 --> 00:45:27.650
circular structures. When you cut these across,

00:45:27.869 --> 00:45:31.559
you get... The cross section is circular or a

00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:35.059
series of compounding circles. And of that data

00:45:35.059 --> 00:45:37.119
that's publicly available, there's more that

00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:39.440
isn't that I would love to get my gritty little

00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:41.619
fingers on. Yeah, industry doesn't like to share

00:45:41.619 --> 00:45:45.340
data. Diamonds, we're a big thing. Yeah, I don't

00:45:45.340 --> 00:45:48.260
want to make money off of it, but I want more

00:45:48.260 --> 00:45:50.659
data so that I can say what's reasonable. And

00:45:50.659 --> 00:45:54.199
then I said, fine, let's make a window of reasonable

00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:57.219
angles. And if you project those angles downward.

00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.980
How far do you have to go? And I also got to

00:46:00.980 --> 00:46:04.460
use my experimental data that involved burying

00:46:04.460 --> 00:46:07.440
explosives and saying, what shape can I make

00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.900
in the ground by burying chemical explosives

00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:12.320
and then digging them back up? And so combining

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:14.260
all of these sort of disparate data sets, a little

00:46:14.260 --> 00:46:16.539
bit of geophysics, a little bit of excavation,

00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:19.219
a little bit of experimental, and came up with

00:46:19.219 --> 00:46:21.679
this window. And again, threw it out there for

00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.159
the... the other scientists to say does this

00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:27.539
corroborate with what we're seeing from satellite

00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:31.780
imagery that's trying to use uh radar to to determine

00:46:31.780 --> 00:46:36.119
the depth of it now and so my cute little 12

00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:40.530
are this little point pinning possible depths

00:46:40.530 --> 00:46:43.670
on mars in one place so if we keep looking and

00:46:43.670 --> 00:46:46.110
we get a bunch of pins then we match it with

00:46:46.110 --> 00:46:48.670
these other techniques we can start to reconstruct

00:46:48.670 --> 00:46:51.570
well just how much water is still there or was

00:46:51.570 --> 00:46:54.610
there in the recent geologic past which on mars

00:46:54.610 --> 00:46:57.570
recent is a little bit further back than on earth

00:46:57.570 --> 00:47:00.489
especially volcanically there's not been a lot

00:47:00.489 --> 00:47:04.050
in the last hundred million years but we can

00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:08.389
still say from the more recent geologic time

00:47:08.389 --> 00:47:11.900
period that there was ice at these depths, probably.

00:47:12.820 --> 00:47:15.179
So what else can we check it with? So that was

00:47:15.179 --> 00:47:17.579
kind of the fun thing I threw out. And what's

00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:19.579
exciting is I already know folks who are curious

00:47:19.579 --> 00:47:24.199
about testing my hypothesis. And so they're sort

00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:26.099
of keeping me up to date as they figure out how

00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:29.380
they're going to do it. And it might take a while

00:47:29.380 --> 00:47:32.039
because it's another planet. And then maybe someday

00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:36.110
a rover will drive up to one of these. And poke

00:47:36.110 --> 00:47:39.550
around and help us to understand it from on the

00:47:39.550 --> 00:47:41.650
ground. Or maybe a geologist. I don't know if

00:47:41.650 --> 00:47:44.090
I'll be around for that time period. But it's

00:47:44.090 --> 00:47:47.170
kind of cool to think about, like, someday somebody

00:47:47.170 --> 00:47:49.710
says, hey, yeah, she was full of it. Or they'll

00:47:49.710 --> 00:47:53.389
be, like, kind of useful. Yeah, and you never

00:47:53.389 --> 00:47:56.489
know. Right. You're always just like, oh, it's

00:47:56.489 --> 00:47:59.590
in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah, that's science.

00:48:00.030 --> 00:48:05.190
That's science. That's how we do it. Wow. I think

00:48:05.190 --> 00:48:07.210
it's time for call -outs because I don't even

00:48:07.210 --> 00:48:09.690
know how to follow that up with another question

00:48:09.690 --> 00:48:12.309
that isn't going to get us way off track and

00:48:12.309 --> 00:48:16.230
down another hour of conversation. So do you

00:48:16.230 --> 00:48:18.750
have anything to call out? Future work? Current

00:48:18.750 --> 00:48:22.409
work? Favorite movie or documentary that just

00:48:22.409 --> 00:48:27.969
came out? Maybe a yellow ducky? Oh, I still have

00:48:27.969 --> 00:48:31.610
my duck. But I will admit that it's the fourth

00:48:31.610 --> 00:48:36.059
generation duck. For those who do not know Allison,

00:48:36.219 --> 00:48:39.380
Professor Allison here, as soon as I met her,

00:48:39.420 --> 00:48:41.820
there was always a companion that always came

00:48:41.820 --> 00:48:44.019
with her in the field everywhere. And it didn't

00:48:44.019 --> 00:48:49.460
matter how terrible the environment was, whether

00:48:49.460 --> 00:48:52.559
it was sulfur directly into a volcanic plume

00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:57.159
or dragged across any number of different things.

00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:00.699
And it was always just as dirty as us at the

00:49:00.699 --> 00:49:05.380
end of the day. And so. Yeah, the duck actually,

00:49:05.420 --> 00:49:08.179
it's more popular than me at scientific conferences.

00:49:08.860 --> 00:49:12.019
And so had I tried to stop bringing the duck,

00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:16.539
I probably would not be invited back. So I keep

00:49:16.539 --> 00:49:18.940
the duck. So you get keynote speakers because

00:49:18.940 --> 00:49:22.619
of the duck. The duck can't speak, so I have

00:49:22.619 --> 00:49:26.719
to do it for us. Right. Right. Wow. Any other

00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:29.000
call outs now that I've kind of put words in

00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:34.380
your mouth? Yeah, I mean, there's more ongoing

00:49:34.380 --> 00:49:38.019
projects. I just always like to say at the end

00:49:38.019 --> 00:49:39.679
of these conversations where I'm throwing at

00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:41.599
random things, like I play with dynamite, I play

00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:44.940
with lava. If you're thinking of solving a problem,

00:49:45.139 --> 00:49:50.119
be more creative. There's probably, it might

00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:52.119
involve duct tape and buckets, but it might involve

00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:54.179
some expensive instrument. It might just involve

00:49:54.179 --> 00:49:57.559
finding some friends who can enable you. Try

00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:01.880
it, because somebody trusted me. to blow holes

00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:05.000
in the ground. And we learned a lot from it.

00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:09.980
And so you never know what tool is going to actually

00:50:09.980 --> 00:50:13.199
blow the whole case wide open. Yeah, I think

00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:16.260
a lot of people, the non -scientists really don't

00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:18.900
recognize the fact that science is a lot of creativity.

00:50:19.420 --> 00:50:21.380
When you're presented with a problem, you have

00:50:21.380 --> 00:50:23.500
no idea how to solve it. And sometimes you throw

00:50:23.500 --> 00:50:25.699
everything in the kitchen sink just to see what

00:50:25.699 --> 00:50:28.000
would happen. That's a pretty good lesson for

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.079
all of us to learn. In fact, I do that in my

00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:31.519
day -to -day life, and it drives some people

00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:33.219
nuts. And I'm like, I'm just brainstorming. I

00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:37.579
didn't say it was a good idea. I'm not saying

00:50:37.579 --> 00:50:39.340
do that. I'm just saying, like, we have a problem.

00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:41.000
Let's try to figure this out. Let me just throw

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:43.940
things at the wall. That's where the sci -fi

00:50:43.940 --> 00:50:46.760
bad guy character ideas come from, is just talking

00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:48.980
to scientists who didn't really plan on trying

00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:53.860
some of those. Okay, so we've come to the infamous.

00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.380
Last question that I ask every single guest.

00:50:56.539 --> 00:50:58.880
And if for whatever reason, which I hope you

00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:01.159
do, you come back on in the future to Whimsical

00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:04.920
Wavelengths, you'll need another joke. So what

00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:10.179
is your favorite science joke? So when you're

00:51:10.179 --> 00:51:12.639
trying to discuss whether or not the Earth is

00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:15.260
round, I have one argument that is a great way

00:51:15.260 --> 00:51:17.760
to end those conversations. And it's if the Earth

00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:19.980
was flat, cats would have knocked everything

00:51:19.980 --> 00:51:25.659
off the edge already. True story. It just makes

00:51:25.659 --> 00:51:30.460
me happy. I take it you have cats then. Surprisingly,

00:51:30.460 --> 00:51:32.960
I don't. Okay, well, thank you so much for coming

00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:35.199
on. And hopefully that means that you will get

00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.739
a cat in the near future to make you happy. Well,

00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:40.500
I appreciate your time and your patience with

00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:43.980
my inability to follow a straight line conversation.

00:51:44.750 --> 00:51:47.289
It was fantastic. And I keep telling everyone

00:51:47.289 --> 00:51:48.849
who comes on Whimsical Wavelengths, that's my

00:51:48.849 --> 00:51:51.150
job. My job is to try to keep it in a straight

00:51:51.150 --> 00:51:53.130
line. Sometimes I don't do a very good job. But

00:51:53.130 --> 00:51:54.710
this was great, and I learned a lot. Thanks.

00:51:54.829 --> 00:51:57.489
Okay, that's another Whimsical Wavelengths that

00:51:57.489 --> 00:52:00.730
has been brought to an end. And thanks so much

00:52:00.730 --> 00:52:03.449
for listening. This one was great fun to reconnect

00:52:03.449 --> 00:52:06.989
with an old colleague and chat about Mars on

00:52:06.989 --> 00:52:10.670
Mars. Mars on Mars. Mars on Mars? Mars on Mars.

00:52:10.730 --> 00:52:13.469
Mars on Mars on Mars on Mars. I love that phrase.

00:52:13.610 --> 00:52:15.630
At any rate, you can catch Whimsical Wavelengths

00:52:15.630 --> 00:52:19.170
again in two weeks, and we'll see where the Whimsical

00:52:19.170 --> 00:52:42.650
Wavelengths take us. Adios. Swaying to rhythms

00:52:42.650 --> 00:52:44.849
as the galaxies fly by