WEBVTT 00:00:11.499 --> 00:00:16.899 Lost in the fog of a cosmic storm Floating on 00:00:16.899 --> 00:00:21.140 whimsical wavelengths is the norm Dancing through 00:00:21.140 --> 00:00:27.140 the stars, chasing spectrums of light Riding 00:00:27.140 --> 00:00:30.850 the waves that are just out of sight Welcome 00:00:30.850 --> 00:00:33.969 back, fellow space cases, to Whimsical Wavelengths, 00:00:33.969 --> 00:00:36.070 the show where science is illuminated. Today, 00:00:36.289 --> 00:00:39.969 we're heading somewhere that never sees sunlight. 00:00:40.250 --> 00:00:43.770 And no, not caves, not the deep ocean, and not 00:00:43.770 --> 00:00:46.729 a professor's office during grant season. We're 00:00:46.729 --> 00:00:49.250 talking about somewhere truly extreme, somewhere 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:53.630 ancient, quiet, and very, very dark. The moon. 00:00:54.049 --> 00:00:56.250 The last time this show talked about the moon 00:00:56.250 --> 00:01:00.119 was way, way, way back. Well, in the show's timeline 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.439 anyway. All the way back to my first recorded 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:05.859 interview. Wasn't necessarily the one that came 00:01:05.859 --> 00:01:09.319 out first, though. All about Lucky Peanuts in 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:13.280 Season 1, Episode 6, with NASA's JPL's wonderful 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:16.920 Dr. Morgan Cable. Feels like a different phase 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.700 of the podcast entirely. And it's exciting I 00:01:19.700 --> 00:01:23.400 get to mentally retrace that arc from those early 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.680 Ranger missions. The tradition of Lucky Peanuts 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:29.500 and the sheer audacity of the race to launch 00:01:29.500 --> 00:01:32.939 rockets at another world. To where we are now. 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.359 My podcast skills have evolved, and thankfully 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:39.299 so has the audio quality. So let me pose this 00:01:39.299 --> 00:01:42.859 like a riddle. What's on the moon but never sees 00:01:42.859 --> 00:01:46.920 the sun? Well, there are likely lava tubes on 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:48.420 the moon, but that's not what we're going to 00:01:48.420 --> 00:01:52.870 be talking about today. The answer is PSRs. I 00:01:52.870 --> 00:01:56.349 mean permanently shadowed regions. Near the lunar 00:01:56.349 --> 00:01:59.950 poles, there are deep impact craters. That with 00:01:59.950 --> 00:02:03.010 the moon's small axial tilt in reference to the 00:02:03.010 --> 00:02:05.129 sun, which is only about one and a half degrees, 00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:09.430 those impact craters, the sunlight never reaches 00:02:09.430 --> 00:02:13.129 the moon's surface there. Ever. No sunrise, no 00:02:13.129 --> 00:02:16.789 sunset, no seasons. For comparison, the Earth's 00:02:16.789 --> 00:02:21.349 tilt is a comparatively large 23 .4 -ish degrees. 00:02:22.409 --> 00:02:24.810 That's what gives us seasons, solstices, and 00:02:24.810 --> 00:02:28.409 those long Arctic nights and days. The moon? 00:02:28.590 --> 00:02:31.590 Nope, not in a solar sense anyway. It's almost 00:02:31.590 --> 00:02:34.389 locked into the same lighting geometry throughout 00:02:34.389 --> 00:02:38.129 its orbit. So near the poles, where the topography 00:02:38.129 --> 00:02:41.870 and the geometry line up just right, the shadows 00:02:41.870 --> 00:02:45.189 become permanent. And in those shadows, temperatures 00:02:45.189 --> 00:02:49.050 can drop to colder than Pluto. One important 00:02:49.050 --> 00:02:51.550 wrinkle to mention here is that from Earth's 00:02:51.550 --> 00:02:53.669 point of view, the Moon definitely does not look 00:02:53.669 --> 00:02:56.229 static in its orbit. We see changing phases, 00:02:56.509 --> 00:02:59.669 eclipses, supermoons, blood moons, and all of 00:02:59.669 --> 00:03:02.689 that drama. And that's because the Moon's orbit 00:03:02.689 --> 00:03:06.430 is tilted about 5 .1 degrees relative to Earth's. 00:03:06.550 --> 00:03:10.629 These differences in orbit lead to an 18 .6 year 00:03:10.629 --> 00:03:13.689 cycle that over that time changes how the Moon 00:03:13.689 --> 00:03:16.479 looks to us here on the ground. but here's the 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.939 crucial part from the sun's perspective the moon 00:03:19.939 --> 00:03:23.080 is almost boring its tilt is only one and a half 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:25.840 degrees the angle at which the sunlight hits 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.000 the moon barely changes over time there is essentially 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.419 no seasons no meaningful solar wobble so while 00:03:32.419 --> 00:03:35.639 the moon may look dynamic and ever changing from 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:39.280 here on earth looking up in solar terms from 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:42.000 the sun's perspective it's nearly frozen in place 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.879 and that's why these permanently shadowed regions 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.639 stay permanent for billions of years potentially 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:51.719 parts of those craters near the poles have remained 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:54.199 locked in darkness so today we're going to be 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:56.680 shining a light at least metaphorically into 00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:58.759 the places where sunlight never goes because 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:01.460 it turns out some of the most exciting discoveries 00:04:01.460 --> 00:04:05.199 happen in the dark Okay, please welcome someone 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:07.860 who completed a PhD in 2020, is currently involved 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:10.139 with lots of science communication and outreach, 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:13.620 a University of Maryland College Park Assistant 00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:17.680 Research Scientist at the Goddard Space Flight 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:21.019 Center, and Principal Investigator of a NASA 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:23.959 Lunar Stability Team on investigating decisions 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.860 making under deep uncertainty for lunar exploration 00:04:27.860 --> 00:04:32.779 purposes, Dr. Katlyn Our errands? Errands, yeah. 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.240 Errands. See, I'm terrible at pronunciation. 00:04:37.139 --> 00:04:39.259 So yeah, welcome to be here. I'm so glad you 00:04:39.259 --> 00:04:41.360 reached out. So I guess a little bit of backstory 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:44.560 is normally I poke people, cold call emails or 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:46.379 through friends of a friend, but you actually 00:04:46.379 --> 00:04:48.360 reached out to me and volunteered to be on the 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:53.639 show. Yes, I found you out through colleagues 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:57.459 on Blue Sky that have recommended other STEM 00:04:57.459 --> 00:05:01.160 -type podcasts, and I'm like, oh, this sounds 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:05.660 fun. And yeah, we figured it would be a cool 00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:08.500 way to talk about maybe some cool moon stuff 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:11.379 today. Yeah, and that's exactly why we have you 00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:14.459 on here, is to talk about the moon. We'll get 00:05:14.459 --> 00:05:17.100 there, but before the scientific paper at the 00:05:17.100 --> 00:05:19.769 center of this episode. there was you. And I 00:05:19.769 --> 00:05:21.490 like to do this in every episode, just kind of 00:05:21.490 --> 00:05:24.250 got to go back through how we end up in STEM 00:05:24.250 --> 00:05:26.149 fields because a lot of people, especially in 00:05:26.149 --> 00:05:27.569 high school, they're like, oh my gosh, what do 00:05:27.569 --> 00:05:29.550 I do with the rest of my life? And it's hard 00:05:29.550 --> 00:05:32.449 to, some of us go straight shot like me. It was 00:05:32.449 --> 00:05:34.129 like, I'm going to poke lava with the sticks. 00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:35.889 And so I was like, yay, tall. And then other 00:05:35.889 --> 00:05:38.089 people come into it late. And I think we need 00:05:38.089 --> 00:05:40.829 to understand just how different people end up 00:05:40.829 --> 00:05:44.509 in these fields. So did you come into it like 00:05:44.509 --> 00:05:47.839 right away? You found it early or? Like I saw 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:51.720 that there was sources like an exploration, like 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.600 you were in 10 years before obtaining the BSC. 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.500 So I assume you found it quite early like myself 00:05:57.500 --> 00:05:59.480 and then just was kind of a straight shot or 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.120 was there some meandering there? Oh, I definitely 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:06.839 meandered for sure. So I was definitely interested 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:11.519 in astronomy and rocks as a kid, but I found 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:14.860 it more of a hobby. I joined a local astronomy 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:19.000 club back in West Virginia at an early age and 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:22.360 just sort of grew up with. local astronomy club 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:27.180 and just hanging out with space nerds for a while. 00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:30.240 But again, I only had a sense of it being a hobby. 00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:33.300 I honestly didn't know that I could make a career 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:38.199 out of anything like this until much, much later. 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:41.720 And so when I went to West Virginia University 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:46.490 for my bachelor degrees, I was astrophysics. 00:06:46.509 --> 00:06:49.730 I learned radio astronomy. I was a radio astronomer 00:06:49.730 --> 00:06:53.649 for a few years. And that's all I really had 00:06:53.649 --> 00:06:56.649 in my mind of, oh, this is what astronomy is. 00:06:56.709 --> 00:07:00.790 This is what I should do. Until I applied for 00:07:00.790 --> 00:07:04.689 an internship that had me do Mars geology. And 00:07:04.689 --> 00:07:07.850 my passion for rocks was always still a hobby. 00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:10.550 And then I realized, wait a minute, I can combine 00:07:10.550 --> 00:07:13.930 space and rocks and make this into a career. 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:18.600 Oh my goodness, sign me up. So at the time, WVU 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:22.300 didn't have space geologists. Now they do. Now 00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:25.519 it's starting to become a bit better with faculty. 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:29.399 But at the time, there were no planetary scientists 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:34.339 at WVU. And so how to start connecting with people 00:07:34.339 --> 00:07:38.000 outside of my institute was still very new to 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.160 me. I'm a first gen college student too. So all 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:44.379 of this was still very... Very new and confusing 00:07:44.379 --> 00:07:47.899 kind of deal. But going to my first planetary 00:07:47.899 --> 00:07:50.980 conference as an undergrad really helped because 00:07:50.980 --> 00:07:54.699 then it's like, oh, I can now just tap into people's 00:07:54.699 --> 00:07:57.540 brains and go, where can I go with this? What 00:07:57.540 --> 00:08:00.800 can I do with this? Fell in love with it for 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.860 that particular internship that was back in 2012. 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.720 And then it still took some meandering. I was 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.459 doing Mars work, and then my PhD was on Pluto, 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:14.620 much, much further out in the solar system. Now 00:08:14.620 --> 00:08:17.899 I'm at the moon, coming back into the solar system. 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:21.199 And I still dabble. I still dabble with other 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.970 planetary bodies kind of deal. I'm starting to 00:08:24.970 --> 00:08:28.490 get more into civil engineering on the moon and 00:08:28.490 --> 00:08:31.750 trying to tie in science and engineering, too. 00:08:31.949 --> 00:08:34.669 So so it's certainly been meandering, but that's 00:08:34.669 --> 00:08:37.970 the fun part then. And this is the advice I love 00:08:37.970 --> 00:08:43.669 to tell early career students out there is just. 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:46.720 Have your own journey with this. There is no 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:51.299 linear path to anything if you want to do space. 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.879 We're very interdisciplinary. We have so many 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:56.779 different people with so many different backgrounds 00:08:56.779 --> 00:09:00.100 that you pretty much slap space in front of it 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:04.200 and it just sounds cool. Absolutely. And in fair, 00:09:04.379 --> 00:09:06.759 I'm... obviously from volcanology and I have 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:08.919 quite a few colleagues that have kind of dabbled 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:11.320 on other planets as opposed to being their normal 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.360 they dabble outwards instead of slowly working 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:15.960 their way back in and I think we're going to 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:18.940 have a future episode looking for Mars on Mars 00:09:18.940 --> 00:09:22.259 yes I said that M -A -A -R -S which is a type 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:24.700 of volcanic eruption and looking for those on 00:09:24.700 --> 00:09:26.100 Mars which tells us something about groundwater 00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:29.759 but I don't want to get too sidetracked um so 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:34.039 I guess, time to pivot towards the moon. So listeners 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:35.919 are probably aware of the moon landing. There 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:38.000 isn't much in the way of an atmosphere, but perhaps 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.159 that's where we should start. Does the moon have 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:45.139 any sort of atmosphere or can it hold on to anything? 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:50.179 Not particularly. So the moon does not have what 00:09:50.179 --> 00:09:54.500 we would perceive as a full, breathable, luscious 00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:56.919 atmosphere that the Earth would have. Instead, 00:09:57.059 --> 00:10:00.279 it has something... much more transient. It's 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:02.740 there, it's not, it's there, it's not. Called 00:10:02.740 --> 00:10:05.659 an exosphere. So think of it as like an exoskeleton 00:10:05.659 --> 00:10:09.759 for a bug. You would have an exosphere, a sort 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:16.139 of outer thin shell of dust and plasma and volatiles. 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.360 So itty bitty bits of hydrogen and carbon and 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.340 oxygen just kind of migrating and bouncing around 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:26.860 just very, very thinly all across the moon. Because 00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:31.590 as the sun is smacking up against the lunar surface. 00:10:31.889 --> 00:10:34.870 It's just exciting all of those different atoms, 00:10:35.090 --> 00:10:38.710 exciting to the point of burying that sunlight 00:10:38.710 --> 00:10:41.929 into the soil. And it's exciting all of those 00:10:41.929 --> 00:10:45.049 molecules up and then they migrate. That's what 00:10:45.049 --> 00:10:48.529 we call it then is just migration of hydrogen 00:10:48.529 --> 00:10:50.990 and helium and all these different compounds. 00:10:51.389 --> 00:10:55.049 So what little atmosphere is there is actually 00:10:55.049 --> 00:10:59.190 being created by the sun, exciting the chemicals 00:10:59.190 --> 00:11:02.610 within the soil of the lunar surface yeah that's 00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:05.789 most of it the other part is uh the lunar surface 00:11:05.789 --> 00:11:08.070 because there's no atmosphere it's going to get 00:11:08.070 --> 00:11:12.110 bombarded a lot by itty bitty little uh meteorites 00:11:12.110 --> 00:11:15.409 all of that can also help excite and overturn 00:11:15.409 --> 00:11:18.409 all that soil as well so there's bits of rock 00:11:18.409 --> 00:11:21.750 bits of plasma bits of molecules just bouncing 00:11:21.750 --> 00:11:26.000 around is there a way to this is completely out 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.960 of left field i'm sorry about this just what 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.100 comes to my head sometimes is there a way to 00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:34.220 look at the concentration of particles and then 00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:38.000 look to see where how much has to be coming from 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.480 space versus how much from the soil like how 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.360 much volatiles is getting from micrometeorites 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:45.850 and stuff like that So that's still very much 00:11:45.850 --> 00:11:48.909 an ongoing study because we're still learning 00:11:48.909 --> 00:11:52.049 so much about the lunar environment and also 00:11:52.049 --> 00:11:54.570 radiation, too. So it's not just a one sided 00:11:54.570 --> 00:11:58.059 problem with what's happening at the moon. but 00:11:58.059 --> 00:12:01.580 also the relationship with the sun as well. So 00:12:01.580 --> 00:12:04.460 like how much radiation is in this part of the 00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:06.980 moon versus this part of the moon. And you notice 00:12:06.980 --> 00:12:09.879 then when you look up at the sky, you have the 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:12.480 really darker patches versus lighter patches 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.539 of the moon. Each of those areas have their own 00:12:15.539 --> 00:12:18.820 mineralogy, their different geology as well. 00:12:18.899 --> 00:12:22.720 So topography is going to have a huge role in 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.799 how these molecules are moving around and how 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:31.139 much of... it is retained into the soil? How 00:12:31.139 --> 00:12:34.139 deep does it go? So all of this is still very 00:12:34.139 --> 00:12:37.600 much ongoing investigations, which is quite exciting 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.259 because understanding just the chemistry of what's 00:12:41.259 --> 00:12:43.700 happening at the moon can really help us out 00:12:43.700 --> 00:12:46.740 with resource management. Where do you want to 00:12:46.740 --> 00:12:49.639 go? What kind of science do you want to do at 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:51.580 this part of the moon versus this part of the 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:54.940 moon? So this is still very much an ongoing investigation. 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:59.059 Cool. So I guess, just to follow on, because 00:12:59.059 --> 00:13:01.559 I can't leave it quite yet, what about being 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:03.259 able to measure these things in real time? We 00:13:03.259 --> 00:13:05.580 have weather stations. Oh, yes. Do we have, I 00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:08.879 know we've sent probes, but I'm ignorant of what's 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:11.340 on the probes and what still works. So, because 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.159 it's also a radioactive environment, I assume 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.320 it doesn't last too, too long. The electronics 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:17.220 probably get fried over a certain number of years. 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.039 But, like, do we have, quote unquote, moon weather 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:25.009 stations out there? Not necessarily, but we do 00:13:25.009 --> 00:13:28.789 have quite a number of orbiting satellites going 00:13:28.789 --> 00:13:31.889 around the moon right now. So we have the Lunar 00:13:31.889 --> 00:13:34.309 Reconnaissance Orbiter that's been up since 2009. 00:13:34.649 --> 00:13:38.210 The Indian Space Agency also has the Chandigarh 00:13:38.210 --> 00:13:40.769 Orbiters as well. So each of these orbiters would 00:13:40.769 --> 00:13:44.480 have... monitoring sensors as to what's what's 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:46.840 happening in their orbit some level of radiation 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.620 but for elements that really does depend upon 00:13:50.620 --> 00:13:54.360 what what you're looking into so we have very 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.919 broad, very basic hydrogen maps, neutron maps 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:03.179 from Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter or from other 00:14:03.179 --> 00:14:06.519 orbiter systems as well. We do have beautiful 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:10.779 mineralogy maps from previous and current orbiters 00:14:10.779 --> 00:14:13.720 as well. So it's now piecing those together. 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.980 What kind of minerals are you looking at? What 00:14:15.980 --> 00:14:19.519 kind of hydrogen concentrations might be around? 00:14:19.700 --> 00:14:23.080 We have iron concentration maps. But those are... 00:14:23.529 --> 00:14:26.870 kinds of maps when in orbit is quite low res 00:14:26.870 --> 00:14:29.350 um if you're wanting something a little bit more 00:14:29.350 --> 00:14:32.350 finer detail this is where we're needing to send 00:14:32.350 --> 00:14:36.509 more landers rovers and humans well that's kind 00:14:36.509 --> 00:14:38.269 of what i was getting at so you're describing 00:14:38.269 --> 00:14:41.070 remote sensing which is you're remote you're 00:14:41.070 --> 00:14:43.480 in orbit you're You can do amazing stuff from 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:45.679 orbit. We do it with the Earth, too. It's amazing. 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.100 But there isn't any, I guess, there isn't much 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:52.080 for on -the -ground measurements of that exosphere, 00:14:52.179 --> 00:14:54.980 I guess, is where I'm getting at. That's like 00:14:54.980 --> 00:14:58.519 an avenue to come. Which I think segues into 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:02.929 the paper, sort of. Sort of. Because today we're 00:15:02.929 --> 00:15:05.889 talking about permanent shadowed regions on the 00:15:05.889 --> 00:15:09.769 moon. Diverse lunar polar permanently shadowed 00:15:09.769 --> 00:15:12.690 regions and environmental metrics for site planning 00:15:12.690 --> 00:15:16.809 decision making is the actual paper name. That's 00:15:16.809 --> 00:15:18.590 actually really well and easy understandable. 00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:20.990 Sometimes when we have papers, I read them and 00:15:20.990 --> 00:15:22.950 I'm like, I don't understand anything in that 00:15:22.950 --> 00:15:24.570 title. And it's great because we get to break 00:15:24.570 --> 00:15:26.889 it down. But that one seems relatively straightforward. 00:15:27.330 --> 00:15:30.230 Good. But nevertheless, there's still too many 00:15:30.230 --> 00:15:33.690 questions to ask. So I guess these regions make 00:15:33.690 --> 00:15:38.029 a moon base near the poles more ideal, at least 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:41.210 based on my reading and the introduction at the 00:15:41.210 --> 00:15:43.889 beginning. So this is like how one would... plan 00:15:43.889 --> 00:15:46.629 a mine if we were doing it on the earth instead 00:15:46.629 --> 00:15:49.730 of like a moon base because we're trying to think 00:15:49.730 --> 00:15:53.350 of where the resources are pretty much yeah so 00:15:53.350 --> 00:15:56.470 uh so referring back to like how those molecules 00:15:56.470 --> 00:15:59.230 migrate right there's certain molecules that 00:15:59.230 --> 00:16:03.690 when they I migrate toward the poles. They're 00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:06.629 really like dark and cold because then they can 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:10.090 just freeze together and just stay put. So I 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:13.269 permanently shadowed regions, as the name suggests, 00:16:13.669 --> 00:16:18.840 is that these are totally in shadow. where the 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:23.580 sun don't shine, kind of deep and dark, mysterious 00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:26.620 craters at the polar regions of the moon. And 00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:29.519 so as these molecules are happily bouncing around 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.240 the surface, la -di -da, if they find any of 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:34.700 those deep, dark craters, they're like, oh, yes, 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:37.500 excellent. And they'll snuggle in the craters 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:40.519 and then freeze there. And so the exciting part 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:43.779 is, is that we have remote sensing to tell us, 00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:47.440 oh, there's... there's frozen volatiles here 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:51.580 it's mostly water ice but referring to the paper 00:16:51.580 --> 00:16:56.039 title here there's diversity in what kinds of 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.860 ice might be in some of these poles so not only 00:16:59.860 --> 00:17:03.320 are they dark but because there's no sunlight 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.200 they're also very cold we're talking as cold 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.230 as pluto in in some of these regions even somewhat 00:17:09.230 --> 00:17:13.829 colder than than summertime on pluto uh so negative 00:17:13.829 --> 00:17:17.289 400 fahrenheit you can get some really weird 00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:20.049 chemistry with some of those molecules bouncing 00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:22.529 around and then freezing together so you can 00:17:22.529 --> 00:17:25.309 have water you can have methane you can have 00:17:25.309 --> 00:17:28.990 carbon dioxide ice and so this is where that 00:17:28.990 --> 00:17:33.670 kind of diversity comes in on how did they freeze 00:17:33.670 --> 00:17:37.440 how did they get there and then Everywhere is 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.720 going to behave differently because topography 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.019 is different. The depth and temperature of these 00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:45.779 craters are different. So that kind of lends 00:17:45.779 --> 00:17:47.680 into their chemistry is going to be different. 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:52.720 So you can have one PSR that's maybe loads worth 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.700 of water ice that we can use as a resource. And 00:17:56.700 --> 00:18:01.079 maybe the crater next door may only have carbon 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:05.079 dioxide and only a little bit of water. And so 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.119 this is where that kind of diversity comes into 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:12.640 play, like which PSRs might be resourceful? How 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:16.460 do we make sure that we know when we get there? 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:19.900 And then how do we make sure we do it safely 00:18:19.900 --> 00:18:23.099 as well, especially if we're using it as a resource? 00:18:23.420 --> 00:18:26.380 If you're there only for water, you kind of need 00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:29.039 to know where the water is. But maybe you want 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:34.660 to know where the carbon dioxide is. really really 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:38.420 cold ones you need to plan it out okay so you 00:18:38.420 --> 00:18:40.960 know the chemistries of these just from remote 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.420 sensing from orbit we we can have a pretty good 00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:47.839 guess i mean we certainly still need robotic 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:51.940 systems to go there i we have you know the upcoming 00:18:51.940 --> 00:18:54.380 viper mission should hopefully help us out with 00:18:54.380 --> 00:18:58.700 that as well the the changi south polar landers 00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:01.809 as well has been super helpful to just have an 00:19:01.809 --> 00:19:04.309 idea as to what the environment is we've never 00:19:04.309 --> 00:19:07.410 been to this south polar region before at least 00:19:07.410 --> 00:19:11.250 with with humans and so sample return we haven't 00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:13.250 done this before we haven't done sample return 00:19:13.250 --> 00:19:17.329 of what this ice really is how deep is it maybe 00:19:17.329 --> 00:19:20.269 even just the physical state of this ice it could 00:19:20.269 --> 00:19:23.430 be itty bitty more likely it's itty bitty little 00:19:23.430 --> 00:19:28.630 little tiny ice greens uh but Is it like sheets 00:19:28.630 --> 00:19:33.950 and layers? Is it the crushed ice out of your 00:19:33.950 --> 00:19:37.670 refrigerator? We just simply don't know until 00:19:37.670 --> 00:19:41.369 we get there. So right now it's truly just inferring 00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:45.309 based on temperature maps and hydrogen maps. 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:49.529 And we can infer the chemistry based on those. 00:19:49.809 --> 00:19:52.190 Okay, that brings up two questions. Let's go 00:19:52.190 --> 00:19:56.019 with the chemistry question first. Okay. I would 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:58.039 imagine at some point you're going through modeling 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:00.619 to figure out what chemical constituents would 00:20:00.619 --> 00:20:03.279 be stable, right? I mean, you have to have some 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.740 kind of physical basis to make this guess more 00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:08.160 than just the measurements from orbit as well, 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.319 right? Correct. So thankfully, there have been 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:17.259 numerous studies from the 40s through the 60s 00:20:17.259 --> 00:20:21.680 on what ice can do, how ice behaves at really, 00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:24.960 really cold temperatures. done in a lab. And 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:29.259 so from those experiments, from decades ago, 00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:32.839 we have pretty good ideas to, okay, if you're 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.380 at this pressure, at this temperature, what chemistry 00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:40.460 might you be getting? How does it crystallize? 00:20:40.779 --> 00:20:43.119 Is it just going to vaporize as soon as you look 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:45.819 at it? Is it going to take its time? Does it 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:48.680 prefer depth? Does it prefer this temperature 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.900 range? Some of those PSRs have some interesting 00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:55.880 temperature swings. So some of those volatiles 00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:58.799 may not survive. very long um in some of those 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.640 dark craters versus others so so again this is 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.119 where kind of the where do you want to go and 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.039 and what do you want to what do you want to do 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.339 what do you want to do about it that's interesting 00:21:09.339 --> 00:21:12.170 because that's like the complete polar opposite, 00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:14.710 pun intended, to volcanology because we do the 00:21:14.710 --> 00:21:16.250 opposite, right? We put under high pressure and 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:18.369 high heat and then look at the chemistry changes 00:21:18.369 --> 00:21:20.250 throughout time. And you guys are like, let's 00:21:20.250 --> 00:21:22.430 reduce the pressure to essentially zero and the 00:21:22.430 --> 00:21:24.650 coldness as far as we can get it. So it's really 00:21:24.650 --> 00:21:26.529 interesting that you go literally the opposite 00:21:26.529 --> 00:21:30.329 to a volcano in a box. You're like, a PSR in 00:21:30.329 --> 00:21:35.420 a box? Yeah, pretty much. That's the fun part 00:21:35.420 --> 00:21:37.039 too, is we're still trying to figure out how 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.319 do we do this on an experimental level as well. 00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:43.779 But this is also where we don't know that much 00:21:43.779 --> 00:21:45.940 about the soil mechanics on the moon either. 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.920 So like how porous that soil may be. Now think 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.380 of it through volcanology, right? If your material 00:21:54.380 --> 00:21:59.460 of which lava will... you know mobilize is it 00:21:59.460 --> 00:22:03.500 very dense is it porous what kind of crystallinity 00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:05.500 are you dealing with so you're having to deal 00:22:05.500 --> 00:22:08.920 with like your your type of silica content as 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:13.779 well and in this case it's how much of your carbon 00:22:13.779 --> 00:22:16.720 and hydrogen content is that's going to affect 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:20.019 your crystallization what kind of pressure and 00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:23.240 temperature regimes are you dealing with to either 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:26.900 enhance or maybe not, of that crystallization 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:31.380 process. So there's some fun physics similarities 00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:34.380 here with volcanology. Absolutely. Diffusion 00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:39.099 is another good word. Oh, yeah. Okay. And the 00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:40.980 other question, because this is more of a physical 00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:44.619 question, let's assume we get to the site and 00:22:44.619 --> 00:22:47.400 now you want to go sample volatiles that are 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.779 in super cold environments. How are you going 00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:52.069 to get them back? Because it seems like as soon 00:22:52.069 --> 00:22:53.309 as you get them anywhere, they're just going 00:22:53.309 --> 00:22:56.289 to vaporize. And now, like, do you have to send 00:22:56.289 --> 00:22:58.630 a quote unquote refrigerator truck or something 00:22:58.630 --> 00:23:01.369 that can keep them cold in their current status 00:23:01.369 --> 00:23:05.019 until you can get them analyzed? What's the process 00:23:05.019 --> 00:23:07.420 there? That seems like a huge logistical undertaking. 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.920 It is very much a huge logistical undertaking. 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.099 And this is exactly what is another fun investigation 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:18.740 happening currently. University of Alabama actually 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:21.640 just got a contract to help with that refrigeration 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.680 system for cold sample return from the moon. 00:23:25.059 --> 00:23:29.259 They were just awarded. maybe just last month 00:23:29.259 --> 00:23:33.000 uh which is exciting because it's giving us that 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.059 first step of oh right this is as cold as pluto 00:23:37.059 --> 00:23:40.559 we can't just use any normal refrigerator because 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:43.839 as you say exactly the ice may actually sublimate 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:46.400 and there goes your sample so not entirely at 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.069 least you get the chemistry but you can't look 00:23:49.069 --> 00:23:51.470 at the solids or the chemistry or like you can 00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:54.269 only get the gas, which isn't useless. Exactly, 00:23:54.329 --> 00:23:56.970 which I mean, it can give you maybe half the 00:23:56.970 --> 00:23:59.809 answer. But, you know, how do you bring back 00:23:59.809 --> 00:24:04.589 a cold, very ice cold sample from a dark crater? 00:24:05.369 --> 00:24:08.829 into the rocket to blast back up into space to 00:24:08.829 --> 00:24:11.069 get through the screaming, heated atmosphere 00:24:11.069 --> 00:24:14.470 of the Earth to land and then transport it into 00:24:14.470 --> 00:24:18.470 a lab. Yeah, so it's totally easy. Yeah, sure. 00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:23.869 That's crazy. I can't even. So I guess that's 00:24:23.869 --> 00:24:29.019 still in its. Amidst stages? It's quite still 00:24:29.019 --> 00:24:32.119 early stages, though, because we're still thinking 00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:37.140 about volatile sampling, not until at least Artemis 00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:41.579 IV or beyond. So we're not ready, but it's good 00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:45.900 that the lunar community is thinking about it. 00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:49.119 There's a lot of contract work happening right 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:51.900 now that is at least getting the preparation. 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.519 ready and that's where we need to be. Okay and 00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.660 I guess this research that we're talking to are 00:24:59.660 --> 00:25:02.119 talking about today is also in some support of 00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.559 the Artemis missions right? Yes so this goes 00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:08.539 into like site planning and making sure that 00:25:08.539 --> 00:25:12.539 we're careful as far as what environment are 00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:15.519 we really wanting to study here because they're 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:20.470 so different. Do you want to go easy? and know 00:25:20.470 --> 00:25:23.329 we go to a place that we absolutely know that 00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:26.869 there's water ice water ice is very easy chemically 00:25:26.869 --> 00:25:29.289 it's um it's very forgiving when it comes to 00:25:29.289 --> 00:25:32.809 temperatures so do we want easy mode more likely 00:25:32.809 --> 00:25:35.049 on the first sampling round or do you want to 00:25:35.049 --> 00:25:39.220 go like expert hard mode or gonna get all the 00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:41.859 weird chemistry we're gonna go over here kind 00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:45.420 of deal so so this is more the latter part of 00:25:45.420 --> 00:25:48.660 this paper is just careful decision making what 00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:51.599 kind of decisions and we go through a bit of 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.900 case scenarios my team on this paper on just 00:25:54.900 --> 00:25:58.180 okay if we were to do this let's make sure We 00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:00.720 can get there safely. Can we sample it safely? 00:26:00.859 --> 00:26:03.859 A lot of these craters are very steep. So maybe 00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:07.339 it's more risk, certainly for humans, but maybe 00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:11.940 not robotics. So this is where, again, the beautiful 00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:15.240 diversity of PSRs, how can we bring that into 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.339 the fold of decision -making and site planning? 00:26:18.859 --> 00:26:21.700 Okay. Well, one of those diversity, I guess, 00:26:21.740 --> 00:26:26.230 jargon words that comes up is double PSRs. What 00:26:26.230 --> 00:26:28.869 is that? Like double shadows? How do you double 00:26:28.869 --> 00:26:31.950 the shadow? Pretty much. Yeah, that's exactly 00:26:31.950 --> 00:26:34.910 what it is. Or I like to call them double troubles. 00:26:37.250 --> 00:26:43.849 That's what I call my kids. Exactly. So think 00:26:43.849 --> 00:26:48.329 of it this way then is you turn the lights off 00:26:48.329 --> 00:26:52.710 to go to bed and it's dark in the bedroom, right? 00:26:52.849 --> 00:26:57.230 It's darker under your bed. So you're adding 00:26:57.230 --> 00:27:01.430 another topography on top of something that's 00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:05.769 already dark and make it more dark. Because I 00:27:05.769 --> 00:27:09.150 guess the jargon word more darker is not better. 00:27:09.950 --> 00:27:16.250 Yeah, I almost said that. So I guess there's 00:27:16.250 --> 00:27:18.210 a difference between the volatiles and solids 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:21.490 in a double PSR because it's colder, right? Like 00:27:21.490 --> 00:27:23.390 that's part of the diversity that we were talking 00:27:23.390 --> 00:27:26.859 about. Quite possibly the problem with a lot 00:27:26.859 --> 00:27:31.519 of these double, treble, double PSRs is that 00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:35.160 they're so small that it's really hard for a 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.500 lot of the resolution of the remote sensing. 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:41.240 orbital data to really confine a lot of these 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:44.220 and so now at this point we're just inferring 00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:46.720 going well we're pretty sure that this is where 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:50.059 it can it can get darker and so therefore colder 00:27:50.059 --> 00:27:53.380 but that's still a question about stability as 00:27:53.380 --> 00:27:55.599 well because just because you're colder in this 00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.900 one part and all around you can get warmer are 00:27:58.900 --> 00:28:01.859 you cold trapping are you just uh heating around 00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:04.339 it that it stuff is just going to escape anyways 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:10.380 We don't know yet. Yeah, of course. And I guess 00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:12.619 just to be even more clear, because the analogy 00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:16.299 works so well, where double PSRs are inside a 00:28:16.299 --> 00:28:18.380 PSR and it's like there's a little bed nearby 00:28:18.380 --> 00:28:20.980 that makes the double PSR, right? Like it's usually 00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:25.339 a part of a bigger PSR. Exactly. Yeah. So that's 00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:27.559 the criteria is that a double PSR would need 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:31.059 to be. within the original PSR. So we've done 00:28:31.059 --> 00:28:33.160 a little bit of talk about concentration, where 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:36.500 the stuff comes from, and how they're so diverse. 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:39.099 So are there like, you've already mentioned that 00:28:39.099 --> 00:28:41.700 we're going to pick things based on how easy 00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:44.359 or hard the sampling goes and what we expect 00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:46.539 to get back. But is there also a difference in 00:28:46.539 --> 00:28:49.720 rates of accumulation? How do we start planning 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:54.140 forward for resources? Is this a self -sustaining 00:28:54.140 --> 00:28:56.819 resource on the scale of 10 ,000 years, a million 00:28:56.819 --> 00:28:59.599 years, a billion years? What are we talking about 00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:05.519 rates in this regard? Yes. You were way too excited 00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:07.279 for that question because nobody can see. This 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:10.539 is audio only. They also can't see your T -shirt 00:29:10.539 --> 00:29:12.640 that says, can I lick it with the periodic table 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:17.619 down below, which is phenomenal. Thank you. Yes, 00:29:17.619 --> 00:29:20.160 I'm very excited about this because this is this 00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:23.480 is resource management question. This is my cup 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:28.660 of tea. So the thing about, you know, can we 00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:32.440 make this sustainable? I still goes into the 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:35.519 we don't know the physical content of this ice 00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:39.019 just yet. So, again, like, is it? Is it crushed 00:29:39.019 --> 00:29:41.420 ice? Is it thin sheets? Is it itty bitty? You 00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:45.119 know, all that stuff. But sampling is certainly 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.299 the first step to get an understanding of, okay, 00:29:48.339 --> 00:29:50.500 what did we do right? What did we do wrong? How 00:29:50.500 --> 00:29:52.640 do we make sure we don't just sublimate it to 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.960 death? But then onward, absolutely. How do we 00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:59.960 do this sustainably? How, you know, is there 00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:02.839 really enough? for resource management? Is there 00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:07.259 really enough to make it into fuel, to make it 00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:13.960 drinkable water for future habitats? And so currently 00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:17.839 it's just like, we don't know yet, but it's some 00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:19.779 of those things that we need to start figuring 00:30:19.779 --> 00:30:24.109 this out now. And then another... side branch 00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:27.809 to this too is if it's not then what and so there's 00:30:27.809 --> 00:30:31.390 a lot of fun like risk scenarios that we can 00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:34.630 go into my favorite though is okay say if it's 00:30:34.630 --> 00:30:37.990 not a viable resource there's certainly maybe 00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:40.349 not that that much as we thought there was or 00:30:40.349 --> 00:30:44.349 maybe it would take so much processing just to 00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:47.509 get a milligram of water yeah sure that's gonna 00:30:47.509 --> 00:30:51.069 that's gonna hydrate you know a platoon of 50 00:30:51.069 --> 00:30:57.150 astronauts no uh but then can we maybe make our 00:30:57.150 --> 00:31:00.029 own moon water you know especially if it's a 00:31:00.029 --> 00:31:03.750 natural refrigeration system and just nice and 00:31:03.750 --> 00:31:06.910 cold can we essentially make you know bring and 00:31:06.910 --> 00:31:09.490 make our own and so that can certainly open up 00:31:09.490 --> 00:31:13.069 a whole can of worms in that regard but it does 00:31:13.069 --> 00:31:18.539 help save resources too transport mass cost everything 00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:22.220 um to transport all those bottles of water to 00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:26.119 the moon can we just make and have have our own 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.400 almost like a recycling water uh system on the 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:33.859 moon so that that's certainly More ongoing investigations. 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.579 But for resource management planning, we love 00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:40.680 to go into worst -case scenarios and go like, 00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:44.319 okay, the what -ifs. What if we do find water 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:46.099 and it's not enough? What if we do find water 00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:49.380 and it's deep? Okay, well, now we need to figure 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:52.319 out how do we build a bigger drill kind of deal 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:58.009 so it can get really fun real fast. okay well 00:31:58.009 --> 00:32:01.230 uh then what's the next stage to trying to figure 00:32:01.230 --> 00:32:03.410 out how if you can engineer your way out of this 00:32:03.410 --> 00:32:06.369 if it is the worst case scenario like i'm aware 00:32:06.369 --> 00:32:08.789 of like for instance we have a pretty good idea 00:32:08.789 --> 00:32:10.750 of what the atmosphere on mars is so there is 00:32:10.750 --> 00:32:14.150 like plans that you could in theory extract carbon 00:32:14.150 --> 00:32:17.140 out of the air to create jet fuel I'm not saying 00:32:17.140 --> 00:32:19.519 it's easy. I'm not saying it's simple or going 00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:21.299 to get you a lot of jet fuel. But there is a 00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:23.420 theoretical way to do it. We understand what 00:32:23.420 --> 00:32:25.599 that way is, even if we can't put it into practice. 00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:28.099 Is there something similar here? Like, do we 00:32:28.099 --> 00:32:31.940 have an idea of how much we could get in theory 00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:34.920 or that it would work in theory? Or what stage 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:39.380 is that? So it's almost to a near testing stage. 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:43.759 So the Viper rover is going to be really exciting 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:47.299 for us. So Viper is going to have a drill. It's 00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:49.099 going to have pressure sensors on it. It's going 00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:51.980 to have temperature sensors on it. So we're going 00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:56.460 to see just how fluffy or stiff the soil is. 00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:00.079 It's going to help us figure out volatile extraction. 00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:04.319 as well so as it's doing all this this is going 00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:08.779 to give us a an engineering idea of okay this 00:33:08.779 --> 00:33:14.000 is how tough the soil may be or how easy and 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.700 fragile some of these volatiles may be and so 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:20.720 having just that first step with with the small 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:24.779 viper rover is going to be very, very easy for 00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:27.980 us. I shouldn't say easy, but it's a first step 00:33:27.980 --> 00:33:30.859 to understanding like, okay, how do we engineer 00:33:30.859 --> 00:33:33.500 this better? Because right now, if you were to 00:33:33.500 --> 00:33:36.380 just go like, I'm going to take my uncle's backhoe 00:33:36.380 --> 00:33:39.119 up to the moon, and we're just going to dig it 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.740 out and figure it out later. Man, that's going 00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:44.099 to cause such a headache with time and cost. 00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:47.759 And you can just have, you know, just have a 00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:52.750 complete chaotic mess of completely destabilizing 00:33:52.750 --> 00:33:55.130 all your all your ice uh right then and there 00:33:55.130 --> 00:33:58.970 so doing it carefully safely with a rover first 00:33:58.970 --> 00:34:02.230 get a sense of the environment and then we can 00:34:02.230 --> 00:34:06.250 start scaling up to like ah okay this is how 00:34:06.250 --> 00:34:09.469 deep this is how fragile how do we do this wow 00:34:09.469 --> 00:34:12.329 it amazes me like do we actually know more about 00:34:12.329 --> 00:34:14.369 this sort of stuff on mars than we do the moon 00:34:15.469 --> 00:34:19.449 In current technology, yes. Wow. That is wild. 00:34:19.869 --> 00:34:24.050 Right? Exactly. It's because we've tested certain 00:34:24.050 --> 00:34:29.789 technologies. with rovers and landers and you 00:34:29.789 --> 00:34:31.590 know what you were talking about with the the 00:34:31.590 --> 00:34:35.469 oxygen from bringing in the eye from the atmosphere 00:34:35.469 --> 00:34:38.949 that's the moxie instrument that was a a first 00:34:38.949 --> 00:34:42.610 test of what we can do on another planet for 00:34:42.610 --> 00:34:47.789 oxygen just trapping and so for the moon even 00:34:47.789 --> 00:34:49.510 though we're not able to do that because there's 00:34:49.510 --> 00:34:54.030 no atmosphere but having more technologies build 00:34:54.030 --> 00:34:58.159 up of oh, hey, we're wanting to like stay at 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:00.000 the moon. We're going to need more technologies 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.980 here. And so a really big program that NASA is 00:35:02.980 --> 00:35:06.420 coming forth with is called the CLPS program. 00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:09.480 If listeners out there are unfamiliar with CLPS, 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:11.360 this is a really exciting program. It's called 00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:14.320 the Commercial Landing Payload Services. And 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.340 this brings about private companies and federal 00:35:17.340 --> 00:35:20.989 agencies. coming together, partnering up, and 00:35:20.989 --> 00:35:25.050 building just these very small suites of instruments, 00:35:25.250 --> 00:35:28.750 just scatter them around the surface. Of course, 00:35:28.769 --> 00:35:32.469 in a very managed way, not just willy -nilly, 00:35:32.610 --> 00:35:34.170 you're going to land somewhere on the moon, good 00:35:34.170 --> 00:35:39.349 luck. But very much in a scheduled way. But each 00:35:39.349 --> 00:35:41.369 of them are going to have their own personalities. 00:35:41.650 --> 00:35:44.010 They're going to have their own sets of instruments 00:35:44.010 --> 00:35:48.519 to kind of get us really on the ball of, hey, 00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:50.440 not just going back to the moon, but we want 00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:55.260 to stay here. How do we do that? Yeah, I wonder 00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:56.880 if there's an analogy here somewhere. We often 00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:58.800 say we know more about the moon than we do the 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.059 depths of our oceans. I wonder if we can say 00:36:01.059 --> 00:36:03.159 we know more about Mars than our neighbor, the 00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:06.519 moon. Anyway, kind of going on, you said that 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:10.179 Artemis 4 is the projected when we will attempt 00:36:10.179 --> 00:36:13.780 to sample permanently shadowed regions. So when 00:36:13.780 --> 00:36:15.400 can we look forward to that? Because Artemis 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:18.340 2... Could have launched this month, but it's 00:36:18.340 --> 00:36:21.739 probably going to happen this year. So what's 00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:25.320 the timeline look like for 3 and 4? And what 00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:27.920 does... I'm ignorant. I didn't look this up beforehand. 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.760 I probably should have. So I have no idea what 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.820 Artemis 3 is supposed to do either. Yeah, so 00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:37.159 Artemis 3 is slated to be no earlier than late 00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:40.900 2028 right now. So we'll see how that goes. Obviously, 00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:43.920 that's very contingent on what we learned from 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:48.119 Artemis 2. For listeners that may not be familiar 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.039 with Artemis II, we're not landing on the moon. 00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:54.599 We're just orbiting. It's almost like a dress 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:58.139 rehearsal for Artemis III. Because we've never 00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:01.539 been to the polar regions. of the moon with humans 00:37:01.539 --> 00:37:03.900 before we want to make sure that we can actually 00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:06.659 get there so this is kind of the the travel route 00:37:06.659 --> 00:37:10.800 uh planning kind of deal to make sure like okay 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:13.900 we we got there we angled it correctly you know 00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:16.519 how does landing gonna work um for the polar 00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:19.659 region there so and then obviously how to bring 00:37:19.659 --> 00:37:24.409 them back So Artemis 3 boots back on the ground 00:37:24.409 --> 00:37:27.869 after more than 50 years. Hooray. We want to 00:37:27.869 --> 00:37:30.250 get back to the moon. But still, we're going 00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:32.530 to a place we've never been to before, the South 00:37:32.530 --> 00:37:34.869 Pole region of the moon. So it's going to be 00:37:34.869 --> 00:37:36.730 some very basic testing. We're going to have 00:37:36.730 --> 00:37:42.190 pretty similar to Apollo style with sampling, 00:37:42.730 --> 00:37:46.130 scooping, core tubes, core materials kind of 00:37:46.130 --> 00:37:48.570 deal. We're going to have a few instruments at 00:37:48.570 --> 00:37:51.679 the ready. A lot of them are tore. the biology 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:54.780 side we want to make sure that you know how our 00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:58.320 human bodies behave on the lunar environment 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:01.380 we only did that a little bit for Apollo and 00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:04.579 and now we we need to be better I mean our technology 00:38:04.579 --> 00:38:10.019 has certainly been extraordinary since Apollo 00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:14.530 era and so now we need to be like oh okay If 00:38:14.530 --> 00:38:16.570 humans are going to be staying on the moon for 00:38:16.570 --> 00:38:18.510 longer periods, we should probably make sure 00:38:18.510 --> 00:38:23.010 that their health is going to be good. So Artemis 00:38:23.010 --> 00:38:25.010 3 is going to be exciting. Boots back on the 00:38:25.010 --> 00:38:27.429 ground. It's only going to be for a few days. 00:38:27.829 --> 00:38:30.949 But again, it's a start. Now, are they going 00:38:30.949 --> 00:38:33.389 to be doing anything with volatiles? Probably 00:38:33.389 --> 00:38:37.050 not, because our technology may not be exactly 00:38:37.050 --> 00:38:40.110 ready just yet. We want to make sure we could 00:38:40.110 --> 00:38:42.980 actually just... boots back on the ground first 00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:47.019 and make sure we know what we're doing. Come 00:38:47.019 --> 00:38:48.679 on, you know, it's not so much that, it's that 00:38:48.679 --> 00:38:50.199 we know what we're doing, but we need to test 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.900 all the new equipment, right? Exactly. I mean, 00:38:52.940 --> 00:38:56.059 we truly got some upgrades. We've really got 00:38:56.059 --> 00:39:01.139 a lot of upgrades since the 60s and 70s. So yeah, 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.039 absolutely. But again, this is a whole new environment 00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:06.639 too. So even though it's like, oh, it's just 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:09.519 the moon. There's no atmosphere. What's so different 00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:11.880 about it? It's like, yeah. But there's still 00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:14.599 some very big differences in the environment 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:19.219 here, in the topography here. The soil here is 00:39:19.219 --> 00:39:21.679 slightly different. So, I mean, there could be 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.659 some interesting differences here. But then once 00:39:25.659 --> 00:39:28.480 we get that sorted out and we have a game plan, 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:32.659 then Artemis IV, hopefully, supposedly, we're 00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:34.280 going to be a little bit bolder. We're going 00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:37.800 to go further. into those um to those deep dark 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.900 mysterious places on the moon and maybe bring 00:39:40.900 --> 00:39:43.500 back a nice sample that'd be great and that's 00:39:43.500 --> 00:39:47.460 pegged for what 20 30 something yeah yeah 20 00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:52.400 30 something that's fair it's just curious um 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.559 so kind of this far we've kind of talked about 00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:56.960 like a lot to do with the processes and a little 00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.960 bit to do with the data to like how we model 00:39:59.960 --> 00:40:01.900 it and stuff but what What kind of you've already 00:40:01.900 --> 00:40:04.460 mentioned one, the lunar rovers that are going 00:40:04.460 --> 00:40:09.639 to go and make that chemical type test you mentioned. 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:12.000 I can't remember the name of it. I'm so slow. 00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:14.760 But like, is that when is that going to happen? 00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:17.460 And like, what other data are you waiting for 00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:22.380 in the lead up to what is going to be in perhaps 00:40:22.380 --> 00:40:24.460 in your eyes, the holy grail of getting that 00:40:24.460 --> 00:40:27.340 sample back in one piece without it supplementing? 00:40:27.690 --> 00:40:32.809 What data? Yeah, exactly. So through our conversation, 00:40:33.070 --> 00:40:35.349 we have pretty good ideas to the temperature 00:40:35.349 --> 00:40:38.309 regimes that we're dealing with. We're dealing 00:40:38.309 --> 00:40:43.050 with concentrations of hydrogen and neutron detectors, 00:40:43.289 --> 00:40:46.469 the mineralogy maps. That's all fine and dandy, 00:40:46.510 --> 00:40:49.230 but that's all still surface level. Now we're 00:40:49.230 --> 00:40:53.010 wanting to get more into... the the plasma environment 00:40:53.010 --> 00:40:55.670 what kind of radiation are we dealing with how 00:40:55.670 --> 00:40:58.849 does the radiation affect not only that migration 00:40:58.849 --> 00:41:01.710 of itty bitty compounds that we talked about 00:41:01.710 --> 00:41:04.610 earlier but also the human body could that radiation 00:41:04.610 --> 00:41:09.869 also affect machinery as well so a big huge pain 00:41:09.869 --> 00:41:13.670 of the moon is dust by all means it's a pain 00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:18.780 on mars as well i you know We've lost rovers 00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:21.360 to dust before. Thankfully, the moon doesn't 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.619 have global dust storms like Mars does, thankfully. 00:41:25.460 --> 00:41:30.000 Oh, goodness. That would be such a nightmare. 00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:34.179 But the dust on the moon is still very challenging 00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:38.519 for our instruments. So even just doing hour 00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:42.300 to day long experiments of that radiation and 00:41:42.300 --> 00:41:45.079 the dust environment would be really handy, but 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:49.769 also. back to the soil too um so viper i keep 00:41:49.769 --> 00:41:53.719 saying viper um it's Glorious acronym because 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.139 NASA loves acronyms. This is the Volatiles Investigating 00:41:58.139 --> 00:42:01.019 Polar Exploration Rover. So it's about the size 00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:06.119 of a small car. So we're not strangers to car 00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:09.260 -sized rovers. We've sent plenty of them to Mars 00:42:09.260 --> 00:42:13.219 by now. But this one's slated to be about late 00:42:13.219 --> 00:42:17.840 2027. But it's through... Blue Origin, I believe. 00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:20.900 But it's going to have a drill, which is going 00:42:20.900 --> 00:42:23.500 to be exciting. About a meter depth of a drill. 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.739 And then this is where we have no idea what's 00:42:26.739 --> 00:42:31.139 happening. We need more information on the soil. 00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:35.179 How stiff is it? How deep is some of this stuff? 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:38.179 Again, how sensitive some of these volatiles 00:42:38.179 --> 00:42:42.760 may be. We do have core materials sampled from 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:47.059 Apollo, but in the South Pole. with volatiles 00:42:47.059 --> 00:42:48.880 it's going to be it's going to be completely 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.780 different uh environment there but also for sampling 00:42:52.780 --> 00:42:57.800 in itself if you have a human with a with a super 00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:01.500 duper scooper i i you know you kind of need to 00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:04.360 know do you need to like really push it in is 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:06.800 it going to be so fluffy that it's going to be 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:09.559 hard to contain do you need do you need an extra 00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:14.920 wide super scooper we don't know It almost harkens 00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.000 back to the original debate, like, what is the 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:18.519 moon? Are we just going to land into a whole 00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:20.619 bunch of dust and sink, or is it hard and rocky? 00:43:20.739 --> 00:43:23.400 Like, nobody knew way back in the 60s during 00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:26.320 the Ranger missions. It's wild. Exactly. And 00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.000 chatting with previous astronauts that have been 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:35.260 to the moon, their best analogy is flour. So 00:43:35.260 --> 00:43:39.039 how flour, it's very dense, and you set it on 00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:42.400 the counter, a bag of flour, and it... you know 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:45.260 initially if you try to even just put a cup into 00:43:45.260 --> 00:43:49.039 it it's a bit hard you kind of need to jam like 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:52.559 a measuring cup um into it to get your cup of 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.199 flour but then all you have to do is blow on 00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.280 it and it'll get everywhere and so that's that's 00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:01.900 the closest analogy that we have if you're trying 00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:05.219 to have a visual of just how hard and yet fluffy 00:44:05.219 --> 00:44:10.010 the moon can be Okay. I have in my notes here 00:44:10.010 --> 00:44:12.730 something I read, the shadow cam from Korea. 00:44:12.849 --> 00:44:16.769 Is this like to pierce into those PSRs? Exactly, 00:44:16.909 --> 00:44:19.969 yes. So this was a very, very beautifully fancy 00:44:19.969 --> 00:44:24.429 camera that would just zoom by very up close 00:44:24.429 --> 00:44:27.610 to a lot of these craters. So it's still an orbiter, 00:44:27.670 --> 00:44:31.940 didn't land anywhere. But what it did, though, 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.659 was that it had a very specific filter to image 00:44:35.659 --> 00:44:38.639 the inside of these craters, because now that 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:42.280 kind of goes into not just a morphology, geology. 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.619 Hey, let's see what the craters look like. But 00:44:45.619 --> 00:44:48.800 also from a safety standpoint as well, this still 00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:52.099 helps with the site planning of like, OK. Which 00:44:52.099 --> 00:44:57.900 craters may seem safer to land near and not sink 00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:02.139 or fall into and freeze. I never really thought 00:45:02.139 --> 00:45:05.420 about slope stability as like landing sites. 00:45:05.619 --> 00:45:07.300 I mean, that makes total sense. Don't get me 00:45:07.300 --> 00:45:10.019 wrong. It just didn't dawn on me to think like, 00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:13.889 yeah, we're going to cause a moonslide. It can 00:45:13.889 --> 00:45:17.389 happen. It can happen. There's already some beautiful 00:45:17.389 --> 00:45:20.010 landslides all over the moon, so it can happen. 00:45:20.150 --> 00:45:22.710 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's some fun. Could you, 00:45:22.710 --> 00:45:26.030 like, after this, as a total aside, send me, 00:45:26.030 --> 00:45:28.269 like, a paper that describes them? I would love 00:45:28.269 --> 00:45:30.309 to be able to read them. Or I guess I could go 00:45:30.309 --> 00:45:32.150 on Google Scholar and find them myself now that 00:45:32.150 --> 00:45:33.610 I know they exist, because I never would have... 00:45:34.339 --> 00:45:37.460 we don't see as the average person, like the 00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:39.659 moon is a very dynamic place. I mean, everywhere 00:45:39.659 --> 00:45:41.880 in the solar system is dynamic. It doesn't matter 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.619 if it's Pluto or the moon, but it still seems 00:45:44.619 --> 00:45:48.360 stationary to us who don't study it, right? And 00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:51.579 so I'm surprised initially, but I'm like, of 00:45:51.579 --> 00:45:53.440 course, of course there should be. I'm just not 00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:57.579 aware of it. Yeah, no, the moon definitely was. 00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:02.280 more energetic um on a tectonic and volcanism 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:06.340 scale yeah you know thousands to millions of 00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:10.579 years ago yeah exactly yeah i mean it it it's 00:46:10.579 --> 00:46:14.199 covered in really beautiful um volcanic activity 00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:17.820 um and and certainly landslides and so on but 00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:21.239 absolutely yeah it's it's not something that 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:25.269 we think of as being currently dynamic um in 00:46:25.269 --> 00:46:27.690 the anymore especially with like geologists on 00:46:27.690 --> 00:46:31.150 earth where it's like we see how active earth 00:46:31.150 --> 00:46:35.730 is on a daily basis and then for the moon anything 00:46:35.730 --> 00:46:39.050 under a million years is considered young it's 00:46:39.050 --> 00:46:42.030 true it's true uh kind of an aside before we 00:46:42.030 --> 00:46:45.150 start wrapping towards a close uh what we talked 00:46:45.150 --> 00:46:47.170 about psrs but we haven't actually talked about 00:46:47.170 --> 00:46:50.230 like lava tubes so is that another avenue of 00:46:50.230 --> 00:46:53.889 looking for volatiles in the future Potentially. 00:46:54.010 --> 00:46:57.010 So in the south pole of the moon, there's not 00:46:57.010 --> 00:47:01.090 particularly lava tubes, but we're not just going 00:47:01.090 --> 00:47:04.230 to the south pole of the moon going forward with 00:47:04.230 --> 00:47:07.710 Artemis. We are still hoping to go to other locations 00:47:07.710 --> 00:47:10.449 around the moon to explore. So yes, absolutely. 00:47:10.769 --> 00:47:16.210 Can lava tubes be useful as a means of habitats 00:47:16.210 --> 00:47:22.489 or even just safe spaces, even storage? as well 00:47:22.489 --> 00:47:25.829 because they might be thermally stable. But it 00:47:25.829 --> 00:47:29.429 still goes into we need more data. There's been 00:47:29.429 --> 00:47:32.190 a lot of really interesting investigations about 00:47:32.190 --> 00:47:35.769 lava tubes using Earth lava tubes and testing 00:47:35.769 --> 00:47:40.590 equipment for like field astronauts or what we 00:47:40.590 --> 00:47:43.369 would like to call analog astronauts, testing 00:47:43.369 --> 00:47:47.530 equipment with Earth lava tubes. And can we get 00:47:47.530 --> 00:47:50.269 that kind of equipment ready for astronauts on 00:47:50.269 --> 00:47:52.789 the moon? to use that same kind of equipment. 00:47:52.869 --> 00:47:55.030 A lot of that equipment is really exciting. You 00:47:55.030 --> 00:47:59.050 take like 3D scans of lava tubes and then convert 00:47:59.050 --> 00:48:02.250 that. You can use it with an Oculus Rift. And 00:48:02.250 --> 00:48:05.090 then can we then extend that to almost like astronaut 00:48:05.090 --> 00:48:09.309 training exploration into virtual lava tubes 00:48:09.309 --> 00:48:12.690 as a sort of training before real life. It's 00:48:12.690 --> 00:48:15.570 really exciting of what all is happening right 00:48:15.570 --> 00:48:18.710 now. to get us ready for that yeah it's amazing 00:48:18.710 --> 00:48:20.909 those lidar units can get down to like millimeter 00:48:20.909 --> 00:48:26.050 scale people they are truly impressive and it's 00:48:26.050 --> 00:48:28.389 not just being used for space it also allows 00:48:28.389 --> 00:48:30.969 us to digitize individual like features inside 00:48:30.969 --> 00:48:33.309 the lava tubes and study them separately it's 00:48:33.309 --> 00:48:37.849 it's crazy what we can do exactly it's it's wild 00:48:37.849 --> 00:48:42.219 and really cool absolutely so uh I've almost 00:48:42.219 --> 00:48:44.239 kept you here for an hour. We're getting closer 00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.599 to that. So it's kind of time to start wrapping 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:50.679 it up. Have we missed anything on polar shadowed 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:55.280 regions that you feel needs a call out before 00:48:55.280 --> 00:48:59.969 we move to the less scientific things? Just a 00:48:59.969 --> 00:49:03.730 short little call out here is that PSRs are literally 00:49:03.730 --> 00:49:10.550 cool, but also that there's still so much to 00:49:10.550 --> 00:49:15.110 learn about them on not just a chemical scale, 00:49:15.230 --> 00:49:20.250 but also a geotechnical scale as well. Especially 00:49:20.250 --> 00:49:22.969 if we are wanting to use this as a resource, 00:49:23.210 --> 00:49:25.789 let's make sure that we are able to use it as 00:49:25.789 --> 00:49:29.570 a resource. Yeah, for sure. All right, getting 00:49:29.570 --> 00:49:31.110 to the wrap -up phase. I wanted to go back to 00:49:31.110 --> 00:49:32.769 your bio because I didn't really want to do this 00:49:32.769 --> 00:49:34.909 at the front. And I wanted to get into the science 00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:37.070 because I was excited to talk about PSRs. But 00:49:37.070 --> 00:49:40.610 I think the rest of the curious people that are 00:49:40.610 --> 00:49:42.130 listening would also want to know about this. 00:49:42.690 --> 00:49:47.289 LEGO First League. I had not heard of this before. 00:49:48.769 --> 00:49:51.190 What is it and where can people find it? Because 00:49:51.190 --> 00:49:55.670 it sounds amazing. It is such a really fun program. 00:49:55.750 --> 00:49:59.289 So it is both a national and a global competition 00:49:59.289 --> 00:50:03.429 sponsored by Lego, as the name suggests. So what 00:50:03.429 --> 00:50:07.829 First Lego League does is that it takes middle 00:50:07.829 --> 00:50:10.429 school and junior high students. You form teams. 00:50:10.610 --> 00:50:14.269 So different schools or even communities come 00:50:14.269 --> 00:50:18.539 together. You form a team. And you build robotics 00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:22.880 with Legos. And every year, you're given a certain 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:26.599 checklist of challenges for your Lego -built 00:50:26.599 --> 00:50:30.079 robotic to do. So not just physical challenges, 00:50:30.340 --> 00:50:33.679 but also there's a presentation side to it as 00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:36.840 well. And this is supposed to teach middle school 00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:40.079 and junior high students not just teamwork and 00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:45.050 building engineering skills, but also a... cooperative 00:50:45.050 --> 00:50:48.789 professionalism? How do you communicate your 00:50:48.789 --> 00:50:54.610 STEM to an audience? And so those two different 00:50:54.610 --> 00:50:57.909 aspects are really quite interesting, that it's 00:50:57.909 --> 00:51:02.190 not just build a robot and then that's it. There's 00:51:02.190 --> 00:51:06.750 different levels to this. So I was involved with 00:51:06.750 --> 00:51:10.000 this during grad school back in Arkansas. And 00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:12.900 I had never heard of this program either until 00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:16.860 there was a particular year. Every year is a 00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:19.440 different theme, a different theme that revolves 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.539 around the challenge and what the student groups 00:51:22.539 --> 00:51:25.159 are supposed to be presenting on. And this particular 00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:28.539 theme, lo and behold, was on space exploration, 00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.699 specifically for astronaut health and technology. 00:51:32.179 --> 00:51:35.739 And I was contacted by... Wow, they're that specific. 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:41.059 They're that specific. I was contacted by a school 00:51:41.059 --> 00:51:43.519 that they were looking for a subject matter expert. 00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:47.019 And I'm like, I didn't know this program even 00:51:47.019 --> 00:51:50.239 existed. So I did some research in it. So then 00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:54.039 I became a subject matter expert for the greater 00:51:54.039 --> 00:51:57.079 portion of Northwest Arkansas. I visited nearly 00:51:57.079 --> 00:52:01.360 20 schools all around that region, chatting with 00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:03.960 different communities, different school groups, 00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:08.789 because... these students can reach out to scientists 00:52:08.789 --> 00:52:11.630 that if they need a subject matter expert to 00:52:11.630 --> 00:52:15.710 essentially help judge, like, are we talking 00:52:15.710 --> 00:52:18.389 about this correctly? You know, are we, sometimes 00:52:18.389 --> 00:52:20.929 the students need to create almost like a product, 00:52:20.969 --> 00:52:24.389 even a concept of a product. In this case for 00:52:24.389 --> 00:52:26.610 astronaut health and technology, that theme, 00:52:26.829 --> 00:52:30.289 they had to create a product that would benefit 00:52:30.289 --> 00:52:34.329 astronaut health and or technology. And this 00:52:34.329 --> 00:52:37.099 was quite exciting to see. Like what aspects 00:52:37.099 --> 00:52:40.619 were they going for? Are they talking about physical 00:52:40.619 --> 00:52:43.820 health or mental health, emotional health of 00:52:43.820 --> 00:52:46.179 these astronauts? So me being a subject matter 00:52:46.179 --> 00:52:48.639 expert, I just kind of gave them the groundwork 00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:51.119 of you could go this way or this way or this 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.079 way. talk it through, here's some resources that 00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:57.860 you can use for your presentation. Some school 00:52:57.860 --> 00:53:01.619 groups would practice their talk in front of 00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:04.340 me too, and I would give them feedback. So it 00:53:04.340 --> 00:53:07.679 was fun for them to kind of feedback from a scientist 00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:10.360 to figure out like how they can improve their 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:13.500 communication skills, get them excited about 00:53:13.500 --> 00:53:16.900 presenting it in front of judges, and they get 00:53:16.900 --> 00:53:20.599 scores and they can move on into like regionals 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:23.409 and nationals and so on. But yeah, every year 00:53:23.409 --> 00:53:25.929 is a different theme. You can certainly find 00:53:25.929 --> 00:53:29.949 more about it just by Googling first Lego League 00:53:29.949 --> 00:53:34.389 there. But anybody listening in that would be 00:53:34.389 --> 00:53:36.789 a subject matter expert for that particular theme, 00:53:36.889 --> 00:53:39.650 like more likely there are going to be hundreds 00:53:39.650 --> 00:53:44.250 of schools nearby that may. need a subject matter 00:53:44.250 --> 00:53:47.269 expert out there to just chat or just to just 00:53:47.269 --> 00:53:50.210 poke your brain a little bit. But that was very 00:53:50.210 --> 00:53:52.769 fun. I got to meet so many different groups, 00:53:52.929 --> 00:53:57.929 very inspiring. And I was awarded a mentor leadership 00:53:57.929 --> 00:54:02.969 award through that program as well. Wow. I know 00:54:02.969 --> 00:54:04.789 this is blasphemous being from Canada, but I 00:54:04.789 --> 00:54:09.570 almost wish I did that instead of hockey. All 00:54:09.570 --> 00:54:12.610 right. So we're heading to the last question. 00:54:13.050 --> 00:54:15.230 Just before we get to the traditional infamous 00:54:15.230 --> 00:54:17.670 last question, any final call -outs of any sort? 00:54:18.789 --> 00:54:21.030 That doesn't have to be science. It can be anything. 00:54:21.170 --> 00:54:23.869 It could be the next big STEM outreach thing 00:54:23.869 --> 00:54:27.510 you're doing. I don't know. Anything. There's 00:54:27.510 --> 00:54:29.849 just all sorts of really cool projects coming 00:54:29.849 --> 00:54:33.510 up for the moon. And it's not just science. There's 00:54:33.510 --> 00:54:36.650 also some cool engineering, lots of fun engineering 00:54:36.650 --> 00:54:39.250 tests that we're wanting to do at the moon as 00:54:39.250 --> 00:54:43.400 well. And we have... Quite a bit of fun, like 00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:46.179 seismometers coming to the moon. So yeah, there's 00:54:46.179 --> 00:54:49.219 all sorts of, oh yeah, I see you going there. 00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:53.000 Yeah. Well, I am a geophysicist. Oh, there you 00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:55.679 go. Yeah. So I spoke your language there. For 00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:57.719 those that can't see us because no one else can, 00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:00.340 I was doing the whole Dr. Evil finger thing. 00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:06.000 Like, yes, bring the seismometers. Exactly. Okay. 00:55:06.139 --> 00:55:09.039 So the traditional last question. Tell us your 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:13.800 favorite science joke. I've been ready for this 00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:19.739 for weeks. Okay. Where is a favorite place that 00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:22.579 a pirate would hide their treasure on the moon? 00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:26.179 I know it has to do with the letter R, but I'm 00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:32.840 not sure. A PSR. A PSR. You can't even see the 00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:36.760 X. Exactly. See, that's the perfect hiding spot. 00:55:37.849 --> 00:55:39.989 Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on 00:55:39.989 --> 00:55:42.510 and reaching out through Blue Sky. And yeah, 00:55:43.210 --> 00:55:44.769 I'm looking forward to it. And by all means, 00:55:44.809 --> 00:55:46.630 the next time you publish a paper, feel free 00:55:46.630 --> 00:55:49.230 to hit me up. We're glad to have you back on. 00:55:49.889 --> 00:55:52.230 Great. Thank you so much for having me. And that 00:55:52.230 --> 00:55:54.809 brings our episode to a close. Thanks again for 00:55:54.809 --> 00:55:57.389 showing up and listening on. Remember, if you 00:55:57.389 --> 00:55:59.130 haven't already, subscribe so you don't miss 00:55:59.130 --> 00:56:02.769 a show. Tell a friend. leave a rating and review. 00:56:02.989 --> 00:56:05.389 You'd be really surprised just how important 00:56:05.389 --> 00:56:08.590 those are to indie shows like this one. See you 00:56:08.590 --> 00:56:30.960 in two weeks. Swaying to rhythms as the galaxies 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:32.159 fly by