WEBVTT 00:00:11.120 --> 00:00:16.879 lost in the fog of a cosmic storm floating on 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:21.120 whimsical wavelengths is the norm dancing through 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:31.059 the stars chasing spectrums of light It's been 00:00:31.059 --> 00:00:33.539 two weeks, and well, it's time for a little bit 00:00:33.539 --> 00:00:35.920 of whimsical wavelengths on your Monday morning. 00:00:36.140 --> 00:00:38.179 I'm always learning new things, and trying new 00:00:38.179 --> 00:00:40.920 things, and yes, making new episodes. This time, 00:00:41.020 --> 00:00:43.000 I got the opportunity to have a slightly different 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.420 kind of guest. Well, maybe not that different. 00:00:45.539 --> 00:00:48.659 Not different at all. I mean, still a researcher, 00:00:48.859 --> 00:00:51.060 still talking about a paper they've recently 00:00:51.060 --> 00:00:54.789 published. The discipline, that's slightly different. 00:00:54.869 --> 00:00:59.250 We're going to look at education and STEM. At 00:00:59.250 --> 00:01:01.929 the people who choose science and technology 00:01:01.929 --> 00:01:04.629 bachelors. And more specifically, astronomy. 00:01:05.170 --> 00:01:08.829 Usually, we look outwards to the stars. But this 00:01:08.829 --> 00:01:11.030 week, we're turning the telescope around. The 00:01:11.030 --> 00:01:13.530 scientists are the ones under observation. So 00:01:13.530 --> 00:01:17.129 don't worry, it's all ethically approved. Understanding 00:01:17.129 --> 00:01:19.430 why people choose a specific career is an important 00:01:19.430 --> 00:01:21.909 thing for anyone with the eye to the future. 00:01:22.510 --> 00:01:25.569 Let me give you an example. In geoscience, i 00:01:25.569 --> 00:01:29.310 .e. my discipline, we've been feeling the tremors 00:01:29.310 --> 00:01:33.189 of change for a while. Low enrollment in universities, 00:01:33.609 --> 00:01:37.090 programs closing, and yet a massive cohort nearing 00:01:37.090 --> 00:01:41.269 retirement. There's also projective growth, but 00:01:41.269 --> 00:01:45.010 not enough space or sometimes support to train 00:01:45.010 --> 00:01:48.709 that next generation. So if a government or institution 00:01:48.709 --> 00:01:50.989 wanted to build that capacity, how would they 00:01:50.989 --> 00:01:54.530 do it? How would they attract new students? How 00:01:54.530 --> 00:01:59.209 would they make sure it is diverse and a resilient 00:01:59.209 --> 00:02:02.730 community? Not just another rock cycle repeating 00:02:02.730 --> 00:02:05.769 itself. These questions aren't unique to geoscience. 00:02:05.909 --> 00:02:08.770 They ripple across all disciplines. Even in trades, 00:02:08.849 --> 00:02:11.870 we see efforts to reimagine how people see themselves 00:02:11.870 --> 00:02:15.789 in a role. How identity becomes part of that 00:02:15.789 --> 00:02:19.169 belonging. To reiterate, this episode is different. 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:22.259 Because it flips the usual script. We're turning 00:02:22.259 --> 00:02:26.419 the scientist from the observer to the observed 00:02:26.419 --> 00:02:29.560 or the subject. And that's what I find fascinating 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:33.020 about today's episode. It's a window into understanding 00:02:33.020 --> 00:02:37.139 who we are as scientists and how we identify 00:02:37.139 --> 00:02:40.439 with our chosen profession. For me, it started 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:44.210 with volcanoes. And the images and videos from 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:47.729 Katya and Maurice Kraft, a fearless duo who chased 00:02:47.729 --> 00:02:50.830 eruptions all around the world with more enthusiasm 00:02:50.830 --> 00:02:54.689 than perhaps self -preservation. Their work delivered 00:02:54.689 --> 00:02:57.750 awe -inspiring footage and probably inspired 00:02:57.750 --> 00:03:01.449 a few raised eyebrows at home when I said I wanted 00:03:01.449 --> 00:03:04.370 to study volcanoes too. It was also about encouragement 00:03:04.370 --> 00:03:07.250 from family to teachers and maybe even a touch 00:03:07.250 --> 00:03:10.400 of amused tolerance, if you will. During my undergrad 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:13.319 at UVic, every single term paper I wrote in geoscience 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.419 was some aspect of volcanism. But identity in 00:03:16.419 --> 00:03:19.419 science isn't just about passion or curiosity. 00:03:19.419 --> 00:03:22.080 It's shaped by mentorship, community, representation, 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:26.219 and those subtle cues about who belongs. For 00:03:26.219 --> 00:03:30.060 students stepping into STEM, those early experiences, 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:34.360 the classes they take, the people they see succeeding. 00:03:34.969 --> 00:03:37.870 The stories told about what it means to be a 00:03:37.870 --> 00:03:42.050 scientist, an astronomer, a geologist, a physicist, 00:03:42.430 --> 00:03:45.550 a biologist. They all influence whether they 00:03:45.550 --> 00:03:48.770 see themselves as part of that universe. And 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:51.569 for those already in the field, identity evolves 00:03:51.569 --> 00:03:55.090 too. Especially when we become mentors, educators, 00:03:55.449 --> 00:03:58.520 collaborators. The next... guiding stars for 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.280 others. So to help us explore this topic, please 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:03.560 welcome a researcher who started out with a bachelor's 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:05.560 of science and a master's of science in physics. 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:09.219 Before, when doing his PhD, got it in science 00:04:09.219 --> 00:04:12.020 education. Currently a research associate at 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:13.800 the American Museum of Natural History and a 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:15.819 faculty member at the City University of New 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:19.740 York, York College, Dr. Zachary Richards. Hey, 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.160 thank you so much for having me. Before bringing 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:25.100 up the paper, let's first turn the lens towards 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:29.029 you. Started with a physics bachelor's of science, 00:04:29.209 --> 00:04:31.209 then you got a master's of science titled the 00:04:31.209 --> 00:04:34.410 Detection and Characterization of Extrasolar 00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:37.170 Planets. So I guess, what was that like? I mean, 00:04:37.209 --> 00:04:39.889 what was your personal evolution up to that point? 00:04:39.970 --> 00:04:42.350 In the words of one of my past physics professors, 00:04:42.769 --> 00:04:47.009 did the mathematics speak to you? Yeah, so in 00:04:47.009 --> 00:04:49.810 high school, I was not much of a physics person 00:04:49.810 --> 00:04:52.899 to begin with. I got by the skin of my teeth. 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.259 And when I went to college, I took an introductory 00:04:55.259 --> 00:04:57.779 astronomy class to fulfill a general education 00:04:57.779 --> 00:05:00.579 requirement. On the first night, I went to the 00:05:00.579 --> 00:05:04.699 observatory, for extra credit, of course. I just, 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:07.899 I fell in love, you know, with astronomy. I was 00:05:07.899 --> 00:05:12.240 up at the observatory until 3 a .m., maybe, just 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:14.779 hanging out with my professor and, you know, 00:05:14.779 --> 00:05:17.100 looking at the stars. Between that and the way 00:05:17.100 --> 00:05:19.889 that he taught, it was very animated. and very 00:05:19.889 --> 00:05:22.730 engaging. It was that kind of a moment where 00:05:22.730 --> 00:05:27.810 I started to think that I really wanted to do 00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:31.949 astrophysics. And at the end of the semester, 00:05:32.009 --> 00:05:36.250 I asked my professor, how do I do what you do? 00:05:36.569 --> 00:05:39.110 And he said, you need to major in physics, to 00:05:39.110 --> 00:05:42.990 which at that time I said, well, shoot. Oh, dear 00:05:42.990 --> 00:05:47.980 bleep. Yeah. And so Right after that, I went 00:05:47.980 --> 00:05:51.139 down to my advisor and I said, I'm going to major 00:05:51.139 --> 00:05:55.220 in physics. And that's kind of the short story. 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:58.720 And so I spent a lot of time doing outreach with 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.240 the observatory after that. I really wanted to 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:04.579 teach at the college level and, you know, become 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:09.579 a professor. So that was that portion. So I guess 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:12.269 it was more of a... pushing the boundaries of 00:06:12.269 --> 00:06:14.509 what we know or exploring the unknown, like Star 00:06:14.509 --> 00:06:18.790 Trek would say, instead of letting the math as 00:06:18.790 --> 00:06:21.069 a language write the cosmos. Because there's 00:06:21.069 --> 00:06:23.370 definitely multiple ways to get into physics 00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:25.189 and astrophysics, and I'm sure we're going to 00:06:25.189 --> 00:06:26.689 get into that in a moment. But I guess that's 00:06:26.689 --> 00:06:30.069 kind of the tact, you could say. Yeah, it was 00:06:30.069 --> 00:06:35.149 more just pure wonder. What's out there? It was 00:06:35.149 --> 00:06:38.589 a completely new world to me, and I just fell 00:06:38.589 --> 00:06:42.779 in love with it. It's fair. Any of us who have 00:06:42.779 --> 00:06:46.040 gotten a PhD in sciences have things along our 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:47.939 journey that kind of take us there for sure. 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:52.279 But then you shifted from just pure research, 00:06:52.379 --> 00:06:55.279 discovering the cosmos, to science education. 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:59.000 So how did that all come about? Yeah, so after 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.279 I received my master's degree, so I'm originally 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.740 from New York City, and I moved back to New York 00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:09.639 City, and I was a little bit... well, not a little 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:13.779 bit, a lot of bit, burnt out, and I needed a 00:07:13.779 --> 00:07:16.120 job. At that time, the only thing that really 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.699 I saw myself doing was teaching, and so I got 00:07:19.699 --> 00:07:24.899 a job as an adjunct instructor teaching astronomy 00:07:24.899 --> 00:07:28.819 as well as a life in the universe course in physics, 00:07:28.939 --> 00:07:31.800 and I started teaching, and through that time, 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.379 I met, well, then my supervisor, now colleague 00:07:35.379 --> 00:07:39.389 and friend, Ali, and Teaching kind of reinvigorated 00:07:39.389 --> 00:07:44.050 me to want to go back and actually get my PhD 00:07:44.050 --> 00:07:46.970 in astrophysics, because that was the goal the 00:07:46.970 --> 00:07:49.870 whole time. However, living in New York and needing 00:07:49.870 --> 00:07:54.310 to make money, most of my time was spent teaching, 00:07:54.470 --> 00:07:58.290 and I also made ice cream on the side. Ice cream 00:07:58.290 --> 00:08:01.449 on the side? Yeah, yeah. Did you happen to listen 00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:04.029 to an earlier episode of this season where we 00:08:04.029 --> 00:08:06.920 did ice cream science, too? No, no, I did not. 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:11.259 But that's a really funny coincidence. So I was 00:08:11.259 --> 00:08:14.740 basically an ice cream chef while I adjuncted. 00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:17.860 The days that I wasn't teaching, I was making 00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:22.519 ice cream. And I started to apply to graduate 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:27.319 schools again. And I kept on getting rejected. 00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:31.939 And the feedback that I was getting was I was 00:08:31.939 --> 00:08:34.879 not doing enough research in my own time. And 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:38.299 I was too focused on teaching. And by the end 00:08:38.299 --> 00:08:42.139 of it, I think I applied four times where everybody 00:08:42.139 --> 00:08:45.059 said, you're teaching too much and not doing 00:08:45.059 --> 00:08:47.820 enough research. I could not do research, that 00:08:47.820 --> 00:08:51.059 much research for free. I did a little bit. But 00:08:51.059 --> 00:08:54.679 because I was teaching a lot and I had many conversations 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:57.419 about this, on the fourth time around, it was 00:08:57.419 --> 00:09:00.419 recommended that since I really just wanted to 00:09:00.419 --> 00:09:02.759 teach at the time, I should maybe... consider 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:07.700 going for a PhD in science education. And at 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.740 the time, I begrudgingly considered the idea 00:09:11.740 --> 00:09:15.860 because it wasn't what I wanted to do initially. 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:19.440 But over time, I came to terms with it and then 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:24.120 I applied and I got in. So I went. Because I've 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.940 always wanted to teach. When I thought of professor, 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:31.059 the real thing that I was interested in was teaching. 00:09:31.580 --> 00:09:34.460 Is that partly because that professor that got 00:09:34.460 --> 00:09:36.340 you into all of this made such an impact on your 00:09:36.340 --> 00:09:38.159 life? You're like, that's kind of the impact 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:40.860 that I want to make? Yeah, that's a big part 00:09:40.860 --> 00:09:45.279 of it. Yeah. But also, when I look back, education 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.740 is a world that I know really well, because my 00:09:48.740 --> 00:09:51.919 mother was a teacher, and her father was also 00:09:51.919 --> 00:10:02.289 a teacher. Oh, so it runs in the family. a really 00:10:02.289 --> 00:10:06.470 lovely lesson about life has a way of working 00:10:06.470 --> 00:10:09.029 out for you as long as you're willing to go for 00:10:09.029 --> 00:10:10.929 it yeah as long as you're willing to go for it 00:10:10.929 --> 00:10:13.090 life has a tendency to work out for you yeah 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:15.529 it just may be slightly different than the way 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:19.690 you envisioned and so now i uh right now i'm 00:10:19.690 --> 00:10:22.029 doing a lot of research in astronomy education 00:10:22.029 --> 00:10:25.529 what we'll talk about later is you know how students 00:10:25.529 --> 00:10:28.210 start to build an identity as an astronomer. 00:10:28.309 --> 00:10:33.009 I'm also doing work on how can we detect students 00:10:33.009 --> 00:10:36.129 at risk of failing their astronomy classes, specifically 00:10:36.129 --> 00:10:40.669 their introductory classes, so that we can implement 00:10:40.669 --> 00:10:44.289 some sort of strategy for them, an intervention, 00:10:44.570 --> 00:10:47.370 so that they can pass their course. Specifically 00:10:47.370 --> 00:10:51.350 because introductory astronomy classes are the 00:10:51.350 --> 00:10:54.240 only Usually the only science class a regular 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.639 student will take. We have words for those courses 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.440 sometimes and jokes, I should say, in the different 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.279 universities I've had. Like rocks for jocks, 00:11:02.500 --> 00:11:08.159 death and dinos, moons for goons. Yeah, actually, 00:11:08.299 --> 00:11:10.200 I don't know if we have, or at least I don't 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.840 know of any of those for astronomy. But, you 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:14.500 know, a lot of people are genuinely interested 00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:16.879 in astronomy. And, you know, if we can have more 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:19.820 positive experiences, maybe we can have more 00:11:19.820 --> 00:11:22.759 individuals. you know, switch to some sort of 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:25.659 STEM major. Yeah. And I'm also now, you know, 00:11:25.659 --> 00:11:28.600 we're starting to make my way back towards exoplanets. 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:31.100 So, you know, things kind of... You can go for 00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:33.620 a circle for sure. Yeah. You deviate from the 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:36.080 path a little bit and then you find your way. 00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:38.059 Okay. Well, that really brings us neatly, because 00:11:38.059 --> 00:11:40.100 you've already mentioned it, to the paper at 00:11:40.100 --> 00:11:43.399 hand and what were the main topic of today. Astronomy 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:45.779 Identity Framework for Undergraduate Students 00:11:45.779 --> 00:11:48.799 and Researchers. And there's no better place 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.080 to start than the first phrase I came across 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:55.159 that I had no idea what it meant. And it's also 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.000 one of my fun things that I like to do on the 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.360 podcast, which tells you I'm really nerdy. The 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.100 first sentence of the abstract had this phrase, 00:12:02.299 --> 00:12:07.419 transcendental phenomenological. I have no idea 00:12:07.419 --> 00:12:10.580 what that meant. I spent probably an hour trying 00:12:10.580 --> 00:12:13.259 to figure it out. And I kind of came to, I think, 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.360 the right answer. But it's way outside my field. 00:12:17.340 --> 00:12:20.639 Can you break it down? Sure, yeah. So this paper, 00:12:20.779 --> 00:12:25.000 as doing research in science education, research 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:27.580 can be broken down into two parts. The quantitative 00:12:27.580 --> 00:12:31.500 section, which is where I thrive, and then there's 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:34.960 the qualitative aspect. In this particular scenario, 00:12:35.259 --> 00:12:39.159 qualitative means interviewing participants or 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.799 basically having a conversation with them. And 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:45.519 so one of the approaches to qualitative... research 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.659 is phenomenology, which is what you essentially 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:51.320 do to break it down in like 50 words or less. 00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:56.399 You interview up to about 15 or so people who 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:02.240 all have experienced the same event or the same 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:04.639 phenomenon. So in this case, the paper was about 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:08.460 individuals majoring in astronomy or doing research 00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:10.940 in astronomy. So that was the phenomena that 00:13:10.940 --> 00:13:14.710 we were examining. So phenomenological is just 00:13:14.710 --> 00:13:18.389 the process of taking verbal or interview or 00:13:18.389 --> 00:13:21.049 writing and then breaking it down into its individual 00:13:21.049 --> 00:13:24.769 word parts? Yeah, exactly. So we start with people 00:13:24.769 --> 00:13:28.289 having the same experience. In this study, the 00:13:28.289 --> 00:13:31.870 data itself were the recordings or the transcripts 00:13:31.870 --> 00:13:35.070 of our interviews. And from there, we take the 00:13:35.070 --> 00:13:39.379 transcripts and we break it down. into specific 00:13:39.379 --> 00:13:43.539 quotes, and these quotes basically act as little 00:13:43.539 --> 00:13:47.679 nuggets of information that we can analyze. All 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:49.700 right, what's the other word then? How does that 00:13:49.700 --> 00:13:52.799 modify it? Transcendental. Yeah, so it's just 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.320 the specific kind of phenomenology, but they 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.590 all essentially focus on just gathering people 00:14:00.590 --> 00:14:03.169 with a shared experience. I ask these questions 00:14:03.169 --> 00:14:05.250 because it's always important for people trying 00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:07.389 to understand peer -reviewed papers. Like, how 00:14:07.389 --> 00:14:09.950 do we get the data? Like, so understanding where 00:14:09.950 --> 00:14:11.909 the science and the data comes from is really 00:14:11.909 --> 00:14:15.090 important. Okay, so I think the next step for 00:14:15.090 --> 00:14:18.090 everyone following along is the word identity 00:14:18.090 --> 00:14:21.169 and what that really means. And let's try to 00:14:21.169 --> 00:14:23.070 broaden it out for science more in general, and 00:14:23.070 --> 00:14:24.750 then we'll get more into the paper. So like, 00:14:24.750 --> 00:14:28.759 we have our own personal identity. and who we 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:30.919 think we are, what we wear, what we eat, and 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:34.100 our beliefs, but what does it mean in this context? 00:14:34.779 --> 00:14:38.399 Yeah, so in the terms of the research, identity 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:43.740 is how one sees themselves as a specific person. 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:46.620 So for example, for this paper, right, well, 00:14:46.700 --> 00:14:49.240 just to stick with it, right, identity, we're 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:52.320 looking at how individuals see themselves as 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.659 an astronomy person. How do they see themselves 00:14:55.659 --> 00:14:59.070 as an astronomer? Okay, but I mean, are there 00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:01.090 like different identities and different scientific 00:15:01.090 --> 00:15:04.389 disciplines? I'm going to be really silly here 00:15:04.389 --> 00:15:06.570 and just lean on my Bachelor of Science here 00:15:06.570 --> 00:15:08.909 when I knew nothing about the world. I still 00:15:08.909 --> 00:15:11.529 don't, but I pretend I do for this podcast. So 00:15:11.529 --> 00:15:13.830 in geology students, they knew how to party. 00:15:13.909 --> 00:15:16.629 Like they just, I mean, their pub crawls were 00:15:16.629 --> 00:15:19.230 legendary and a good time. Physics, we went to 00:15:19.230 --> 00:15:21.190 the brewery, we skipped the tour and just drank 00:15:21.190 --> 00:15:23.370 as much beer as we possibly could in the paid 00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:25.330 hour and then went home. The engineers, they 00:15:25.330 --> 00:15:29.789 did. Engineering things? Okay. Well, it's a poor 00:15:29.789 --> 00:15:32.490 showing, but it shows the stereotypes for a university 00:15:32.490 --> 00:15:34.850 I went to, which is kind of like an identity 00:15:34.850 --> 00:15:38.230 or at least a perceived one anyway. Do factors 00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:40.850 like that pop out in analysis like this? Do people 00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:43.830 who have the mathematics speak to them have different 00:15:43.830 --> 00:15:46.649 qualities than those that are like looking for 00:15:46.649 --> 00:15:50.889 exploring the unknown? Yeah. So in the paper 00:15:50.889 --> 00:15:53.559 itself, we've... We've put together a framework 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:57.879 which tells us what certain things lead to somebody 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:00.139 seeing themselves. And in total, we actually 00:16:00.139 --> 00:16:04.299 have six different parts, and they are broken 00:16:04.299 --> 00:16:08.860 up into... internal influences and external influences. 00:16:09.100 --> 00:16:11.919 And on the external influences side, one of those 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.500 parts is actually socializing. So the pub crawls, 00:16:15.500 --> 00:16:18.759 the brewery tours, the random pranks engineers 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:21.500 pull, like putting cars on top of buildings or 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:25.320 whatever the heck they do. But the informal parts 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:32.230 of socializing did not really come out. in this 00:16:32.230 --> 00:16:36.570 study. But one could take a guess that that does 00:16:36.570 --> 00:16:40.809 play a part. But the socializing that informal 00:16:40.809 --> 00:16:43.649 socializing definitely played a part. Details 00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:48.090 were not explored about that part. However, socializing 00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:51.350 with peers and with other faculty members definitely 00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:55.309 plays a role because socializing One allows you 00:16:55.309 --> 00:16:59.370 to see that whatever struggles you're having, 00:16:59.509 --> 00:17:03.289 you may not necessarily be alone. And that's 00:17:03.289 --> 00:17:05.130 something that actually did come out with our 00:17:05.130 --> 00:17:09.529 participants. And so that helps. But also talking 00:17:09.529 --> 00:17:11.730 to professors, let's say, or other faculty members, 00:17:11.950 --> 00:17:16.230 this allows you to see what it's like to be an 00:17:16.230 --> 00:17:18.509 astronomer, which can lead to career expectations, 00:17:18.630 --> 00:17:20.809 which is also part of the framework. And you 00:17:20.809 --> 00:17:23.420 can also get recognition from... from faculty 00:17:23.420 --> 00:17:27.099 members as well, which are all the other two 00:17:27.099 --> 00:17:30.759 of the external parts. So that would be career 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.740 expectations. So what do you expect your career 00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:37.799 or future to be like as an astronomer? Do you 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:41.579 see yourself doing these tasks? And recognition 00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:45.779 is getting recognized as the astronomy person, 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:49.700 let's say. For example, in an informal recognition. 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.079 And that would be your family and friends, you 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:55.079 know, thinking you are the astronomy person at 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:57.359 any time. You know, there's something on the 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.619 news, they go and ask you, right, about it. And 00:18:00.619 --> 00:18:02.460 then, you know, there's a formal recognition, 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.059 you know, being recognized, you know, getting 00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:07.740 recognition, let's say, from doing a good job 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:10.019 on your research project, right, from other peers 00:18:10.019 --> 00:18:13.220 and faculty members. And so between career expectations, 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.559 recognition, and socializing, that's the external 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:20.190 part. And then the internal part is being interested 00:18:20.190 --> 00:18:23.390 in astronomy, competence, so do you think you 00:18:23.390 --> 00:18:26.690 can do the work of an astronomer, and a sense 00:18:26.690 --> 00:18:29.230 of belonging within the astronomical community 00:18:29.230 --> 00:18:33.470 as a whole. And those are the six components. 00:18:33.930 --> 00:18:36.470 What we see is, at least for getting interested 00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:39.289 in astronomy, some people become interested in 00:18:39.289 --> 00:18:42.390 their general education classes. One participant 00:18:42.390 --> 00:18:45.210 noted that they had no idea that they could get 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:49.349 a job in astronomy took their intro astronomy 00:18:49.349 --> 00:18:52.150 course at a community college. But what we also 00:18:52.150 --> 00:18:54.869 see is that people become interested in astronomy 00:18:54.869 --> 00:18:58.609 usually at young ages because there's some connection, 00:18:58.750 --> 00:19:02.250 a familial connection. Maybe one of their parents 00:19:02.250 --> 00:19:07.150 took them out and showed them some of the constellations. 00:19:07.250 --> 00:19:09.670 And what's great about astronomy is that unlike 00:19:09.670 --> 00:19:13.210 most sciences, you don't really need any equipment 00:19:13.210 --> 00:19:16.589 to do it. All you need to do is... is look up. 00:19:16.630 --> 00:19:19.230 So it's really accessible. For sure. I have a 00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:20.849 couple more questions that I'm going to try to 00:19:20.849 --> 00:19:23.309 remember to get back to round two as we get a 00:19:23.309 --> 00:19:25.970 little further in. But I think it's kind of important 00:19:25.970 --> 00:19:29.170 to jump into some of the more technical parts 00:19:29.170 --> 00:19:32.809 of the paper. So this paper focused on marginalized 00:19:32.809 --> 00:19:36.509 communities in astronomy. So by focusing on this 00:19:36.509 --> 00:19:39.789 subset of people, what was your broader goal? 00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:43.769 Well, so it was not intentional. Wait. Yeah. 00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:48.400 Yeah, it was not the initial intent to study 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.220 individuals who came from an underrepresented 00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:54.319 group. So the way we recruited by reaching out 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:59.539 to physics and astronomy majors from two universities 00:19:59.539 --> 00:20:02.819 in New York State, and I cannot say which ones, 00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:05.480 I need to protect identities and all that jazz, 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.119 and so this was open to anybody of any gender, 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:14.299 any ethnic group. It just so happened the individuals 00:20:14.299 --> 00:20:18.220 who responded and wanted to participate in the 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:23.240 study all happened to be from one of the underrepresented 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.920 groups. So I think you would call that self -selection 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.779 bias, kind of? Kind of. Like, I mean, the people 00:20:31.779 --> 00:20:33.799 are choosing to volunteer and they're choosing 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.230 to volunteer from underrepresented groups. And 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:40.630 I'm wondering what that says about the process 00:20:40.630 --> 00:20:43.349 in and of itself. I'm pretty sure this takes 00:20:43.349 --> 00:20:45.190 it beyond the paper because this wasn't really 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:47.609 talked about. But the fact that underrepresented 00:20:47.609 --> 00:20:50.930 groups were more likely to reach out, even though 00:20:50.930 --> 00:20:54.029 there's less of them, than the well -represented, 00:20:54.349 --> 00:20:58.269 like I would represent a well -represented group. 00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:03.930 Why the disparity there? I know this goes beyond 00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:05.769 your paper, but... The questions come up, so 00:21:05.769 --> 00:21:09.329 are you willing to opine on it? Yeah, so I guess 00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:14.130 maybe you were going to ask this later, but I'm 00:21:14.130 --> 00:21:15.450 just going to say this. Just go for it, go for 00:21:15.450 --> 00:21:18.789 it. So one way that studying identity, one of 00:21:18.789 --> 00:21:22.130 its implications is, one, it helps understand 00:21:22.130 --> 00:21:24.970 how people start to see themselves as astronomers 00:21:24.970 --> 00:21:28.390 or how do they feel like they belong, for example, 00:21:28.509 --> 00:21:32.549 right? It can help develop or guide, I should 00:21:32.549 --> 00:21:37.009 say, policy changes to make departments or the 00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:41.109 community more diverse more inclusive and I think 00:21:41.109 --> 00:21:44.309 these individuals they've had negative experiences 00:21:44.309 --> 00:21:47.690 and nothing has been done about their experiences 00:21:47.690 --> 00:21:51.250 so telling their story right can help get it 00:21:51.250 --> 00:21:53.990 out there and we can use that to help change 00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:57.529 the policies and you know make everything more 00:21:57.529 --> 00:22:01.369 welcoming more inclusive more diverse for sure 00:22:01.369 --> 00:22:04.950 and I Didn't put this in my show notes to give 00:22:04.950 --> 00:22:06.589 to you because I wasn't sure I was going to bring 00:22:06.589 --> 00:22:08.930 it up. But you've kind of touched on it right 00:22:08.930 --> 00:22:11.970 here is that I think when I was reading the paper, 00:22:12.049 --> 00:22:15.289 I read one line that a professor at one point 00:22:15.289 --> 00:22:18.769 told a young woman, like, don't bother with physics 00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:20.750 because you're a woman. And I was just read that 00:22:20.750 --> 00:22:28.210 and went, oh, boy. Like, wow. Like, I probably. 00:22:28.829 --> 00:22:31.710 I mean, me as an adult today, not the 20 -year 00:22:31.710 --> 00:22:34.230 -old in school, would very much instantaneously 00:22:34.230 --> 00:22:36.130 turn around and complain about this person to 00:22:36.130 --> 00:22:38.289 the highest echelons of a department. I don't 00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:40.769 know if I would have when I was 20, but, you 00:22:40.769 --> 00:22:43.750 know, with age comes wisdom. So that's kind of 00:22:43.750 --> 00:22:46.410 what you're saying by negative experiences, that 00:22:46.410 --> 00:22:51.430 they feel one of the best ways is through engaging 00:22:51.430 --> 00:22:53.470 something like this in the hopes that their story 00:22:53.470 --> 00:22:56.210 can be told and things can be changed. yeah yeah 00:22:56.210 --> 00:23:00.349 and yeah that is definitely one um yes i yeah 00:23:00.349 --> 00:23:04.529 um it's speechless it's hard to even say anything 00:23:04.529 --> 00:23:07.509 about because you're just like holy smokes like 00:23:07.509 --> 00:23:10.529 i thought this isn't what you know pick an age 00:23:10.529 --> 00:23:16.130 in the past like we're come on yeah there's surprisingly 00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:22.109 there's still a lot of um gender and uh racial 00:23:22.109 --> 00:23:25.319 bias that that goes on, you know, and sometimes 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.740 it's just ignored. Yeah, I have my own, I don't 00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:32.019 want to call it a background, but experiences 00:23:32.019 --> 00:23:34.240 because I was part of the teaching support staff 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.779 union at my university. So we would get a lot 00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:38.599 of the dirt that was coming through the university 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:43.819 of things like this. And again, it's all on, 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:46.099 you know, backstory of you're not allowed to 00:23:46.099 --> 00:23:49.039 really talk about it because it's these personal 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:52.380 things, right? So yes. For the listener, these 00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:55.420 things really do happen. And being able to bring 00:23:55.420 --> 00:23:58.079 these to light in ways that keep people protected 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:00.680 and perhaps change policy is really, really important 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:04.079 to the health of our individual disciplines as 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.339 well, for sure. That was kind of an unplanned 00:24:07.339 --> 00:24:10.200 dark turn, but I think that's part of what the 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.460 research is really all about and why this paper 00:24:12.460 --> 00:24:16.819 or research avenues are really important. Yeah, 00:24:16.819 --> 00:24:22.160 the science is... We need a change, maybe a first 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.200 step or continuing step, you know, in order to 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.279 help make astronomy, you know, more inclusive, 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:31.359 you know, more comfortable for people of different 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:35.559 backgrounds, maybe even extends past astronomy 00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:39.660 and into other sciences. Yeah, for sure. This 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:43.900 is not an astronomy only problem. I guess. Just 00:24:43.900 --> 00:24:45.839 to kind of move on a little bit, I recognize 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:48.599 this study is qualitative, so descriptive in 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:50.599 its nature, but I also noticed that the sample 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:54.119 size is quite small. I have no idea what a large 00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:58.279 sample size would be for a study like this. So 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:02.299 is this a small, medium, large? Yeah, so literature 00:25:02.299 --> 00:25:05.559 suggests for a study like this, a sample size 00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:09.680 will be between 10 and 15 individuals. So it 00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:13.009 is... Right on target. Usually with qualitative 00:25:13.009 --> 00:25:16.630 studies, the sample size is much lower than any 00:25:16.630 --> 00:25:20.089 sort of quantitative study. You know, in quantitative, 00:25:20.329 --> 00:25:23.190 you can have thousands, hundreds of thousands 00:25:23.190 --> 00:25:26.470 of data points. But it's really difficult to, 00:25:26.609 --> 00:25:29.490 I cannot stress this enough, how difficult it 00:25:29.490 --> 00:25:34.829 can be to actually recruit people for a study. 00:25:34.950 --> 00:25:37.849 And there are definitely studies out there that 00:25:37.849 --> 00:25:41.279 have 30 people. let's say, that they've interviewed, 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:45.339 which is quite high. And the issue really is 00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:49.900 getting people to commit to it because you can 00:25:49.900 --> 00:25:52.180 have an email exchange with somebody who has 00:25:52.180 --> 00:25:56.460 agreed to be interviewed and they decide to cancel 00:25:56.460 --> 00:26:00.980 or decide not to show up. And, you know, that's 00:26:00.980 --> 00:26:05.299 kind of the, that's part of it. So usually double 00:26:05.299 --> 00:26:09.769 digits is pretty good. Fair. So we've already 00:26:09.769 --> 00:26:13.089 mentioned, just to reiterate off the top, that 00:26:13.089 --> 00:26:16.289 the data is just so that we don't lose it in 00:26:16.289 --> 00:26:17.930 the churn of everything. Because this was my 00:26:17.930 --> 00:26:19.269 next question, but we've already covered it. 00:26:19.329 --> 00:26:21.670 The data is collected by having these interviews, 00:26:21.910 --> 00:26:25.069 recording those interviews, and then analyzing 00:26:25.069 --> 00:26:28.170 that. But playing with data sets that are not 00:26:28.170 --> 00:26:31.109 just numbers, how do you achieve a standardization? 00:26:32.250 --> 00:26:34.829 look at how effective drugs are, you would do 00:26:34.829 --> 00:26:36.950 like a double blind study with the real thing 00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:40.309 and a placebo. In some sciences, they use statistical 00:26:40.309 --> 00:26:46.769 measures. So how do you determine or talk about 00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:48.990 what is actually, you know, really important 00:26:48.990 --> 00:26:52.490 out of this data set? Yeah. So the way that we, 00:26:52.549 --> 00:26:55.829 I'll start with how we analyze the transcripts. 00:26:55.829 --> 00:26:59.990 So we use something called open coding, which 00:26:59.990 --> 00:27:02.400 basically means We don't know what we're going 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:07.079 to find. And as we go through the transcripts, 00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:11.299 we are going to make up our codes. For example, 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.460 an example of a code would be showing interest 00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:19.299 in astronomy, for example. And so we do that 00:27:19.299 --> 00:27:22.500 and we look at all the different possible codes 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:27.480 that can come up. And then we go back and we 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:31.009 refine those codes. And then what we did was 00:27:31.009 --> 00:27:34.250 axial coding. So what we did was we looked at 00:27:34.250 --> 00:27:37.730 what the codes were saying, and we looked at 00:27:37.730 --> 00:27:40.730 if they were having a positive, negative, or 00:27:40.730 --> 00:27:44.630 neutral effect. So, for example, going back to 00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:48.430 the participant you mentioned before, that was 00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:52.970 coded as faculty interaction, and then it was 00:27:52.970 --> 00:27:56.809 coded as negative. Well, obviously. Right. And 00:27:56.809 --> 00:28:00.880 then we go back. And we refine this again to 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.500 break it up into overall themes. So that's the 00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:07.400 very general way that we go about analyzing the 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:09.980 transcripts. And so how do we, now to actually 00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:13.839 answer your question, so they're analyzed separately 00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:19.000 by, in our case, there's two of us. So they were 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.700 analyzed separately. And then we would come back 00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:24.059 and have discussions about the open codes, the 00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:27.380 axial codes, the themes, right? And we would 00:28:27.380 --> 00:28:29.880 see where we would agree and disagree. And then 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.599 we would go back, do it again, and come back 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.000 and discuss what was different, why was it different. 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:40.960 Until coded everything, the whole idea is to 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:44.559 get an inter -rater reliability score of 90 % 00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:49.039 or higher. And so we did that until we hit the 00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:52.819 score of 90. I forget the exact number. It doesn't 00:28:52.819 --> 00:28:56.140 matter. Question, though. You said this is an 00:28:56.140 --> 00:28:58.799 iterative process. So I guess there's two parts 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.059 to this. First off, the simple one. Was there 00:29:01.059 --> 00:29:03.559 ever a time where you guys were within the threshold 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:05.599 immediately and you didn't have to repeat it? 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:09.519 That would have been the last one. Yeah. So it 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:12.220 took us, I think, about maybe six or eight times. 00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:18.079 Okay. Yeah. Wow. And part of what you just described 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:20.400 is also part of the explanation, I think, for 00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:24.789 the next question. is dealing with bias. Because 00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:29.430 you have two people here, and how do you remove 00:29:29.430 --> 00:29:32.670 a personal bias from it? There must be a little 00:29:32.670 --> 00:29:35.069 bit more to it than just two people doing it 00:29:35.069 --> 00:29:38.950 separately. Yeah, it can be up to, there could 00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:41.950 be more people involved. Was one of the people 00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:44.089 doing the analysis also doing the interviewing? 00:29:44.990 --> 00:29:50.539 Yeah, we both interviewed as well. Okay. not 00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:55.359 to make it overly biased. So usually in these 00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:58.839 kinds of unqualitative work, let's say, the authors 00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:05.819 explicitly state what their biases are. So we 00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:10.079 have a section in the paper stating what our 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:15.319 biases are. What subjects do we teach, for example, 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:17.779 because that can have an effect. I read that. 00:30:17.859 --> 00:30:19.680 To be fair, I read that and was kind of confused 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.180 why that was there, and now I know. Yeah, or 00:30:22.180 --> 00:30:26.559 did we happen to know any of them beforehand? 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:30.859 For example, as a way to be clear and transparent 00:30:30.859 --> 00:30:35.680 about the biases and how they play into the research. 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:42.119 So if you read the paper, you'll see what their 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:45.539 biases are and how they kind of play into... 00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:48.220 how the research was conducted. But the important 00:30:48.220 --> 00:30:52.819 thing is to be very explicit and state your biases, 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:55.380 which would make you, you know, you have to be 00:30:55.380 --> 00:30:59.660 very honest with yourself and very self -aware 00:30:59.660 --> 00:31:03.740 of the decisions you make while interviewing. 00:31:04.579 --> 00:31:07.420 For sure. I guess this is another question. I 00:31:07.420 --> 00:31:10.460 feel like I'm going down a rabbit hole. Knowing 00:31:10.460 --> 00:31:14.230 oneself sometimes is not... something academics 00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:17.970 are particularly good at. So how often does that 00:31:17.970 --> 00:31:22.650 not get done properly in your field? That's an 00:31:22.650 --> 00:31:25.690 excellent question. To be honest, I'm not 100 00:31:25.690 --> 00:31:30.390 % sure. So within the field of astronomy education 00:31:30.390 --> 00:31:34.750 research itself, there is not much qualitative 00:31:34.750 --> 00:31:37.950 work that's compared to the amount of quantitative 00:31:37.950 --> 00:31:40.990 work because most of the time the individuals 00:31:40.990 --> 00:31:43.349 performing their research are trained astronomers 00:31:43.349 --> 00:31:46.829 who have gained some interest in the education 00:31:46.829 --> 00:31:49.569 side. And so they are trained astronomers first. 00:31:49.849 --> 00:31:52.190 Right. So they're using the mathematics to speak 00:31:52.190 --> 00:31:55.289 for them. And you're trying to let the words 00:31:55.289 --> 00:32:00.390 speak. Yeah, yeah. I guess. Yeah. So the transcripts 00:32:00.390 --> 00:32:02.809 and everything that you put together into this 00:32:02.809 --> 00:32:06.970 paper, what's the takeaway home message out of 00:32:06.970 --> 00:32:11.069 it all? And I guess... kind of tangentially as 00:32:11.069 --> 00:32:14.410 a touchy -feely type sort of thing. How did doing 00:32:14.410 --> 00:32:17.289 this research make you feel about astronomy writ 00:32:17.289 --> 00:32:21.789 large in your neighborhood? Yeah, well, there 00:32:21.789 --> 00:32:26.789 were a lot of things that hit home. I did find 00:32:26.789 --> 00:32:29.329 that there were a lot of similarities with myself 00:32:29.329 --> 00:32:33.349 and what everybody was talking about, specifically 00:32:33.349 --> 00:32:37.539 with how they got interested in astronomy. One 00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:39.779 participant made mention of their introductory 00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:44.660 astronomy course. That was me. People, I should 00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:49.980 say participants, also made mention of looking 00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:53.180 up or having a family member show them something 00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:56.220 of the night sky. When I was a kid, for example, 00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:59.519 my father used to show me the Big Dipper and 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:03.740 the Little Dipper, or just looking up. Astronomy 00:33:03.740 --> 00:33:06.539 is great because... It's the most accessible. 00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:09.440 All you need to do is just, you know, look up. 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.200 It's there. So, yeah, I did find a lot of similarities, 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:18.380 and it definitely inspired me to continue doing 00:33:18.380 --> 00:33:21.920 this kind of, you know, pursuing this area so 00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:27.680 that we can make changes and also get, for me 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:31.000 specifically, get back out to doing outreach. 00:33:31.899 --> 00:33:34.779 Because a lot of the time, most of the times 00:33:34.779 --> 00:33:36.920 people interact, the way that people interact 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:41.559 with astronomy is not formal. It's not really 00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:45.240 part of any educational curriculum. It's usually 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:48.299 lumped in with earth sciences, let's say. So 00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:51.119 most of the people interact with it in an informal 00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:55.099 environment. And if we want to start to recruit 00:33:55.099 --> 00:33:59.480 more individuals, or we want to be able to make... 00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:03.279 To diversify, we need to start doing more outreach 00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.799 to get people excited about astronomy and then 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:10.500 to bring them in. Because sometimes it's just 00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:14.320 it's a little bit hard in once you're in college, 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:18.380 you know, a multitude of reasons. In other words, 00:34:18.380 --> 00:34:21.519 getting to the people before they get to college, 00:34:21.579 --> 00:34:25.239 like your high schoolers or even elementary school, 00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:27.800 right? Like get them thinking that this is even 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.789 a possibility. before they get to that stage. 00:34:31.449 --> 00:34:36.369 Yeah, it would be nice to have it known that 00:34:36.369 --> 00:34:39.070 they can actually pursue this. And if we can 00:34:39.070 --> 00:34:42.670 get the parents on board through informal outreach 00:34:42.670 --> 00:34:45.409 events, let's say, have them doing stuff with 00:34:45.409 --> 00:34:48.469 their children. It's almost like you need a museum 00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:51.369 that you work at to really be able to do something 00:34:51.369 --> 00:34:56.880 like this. Yeah, almost, yeah. So that's a segue 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.019 is like, okay, the future, where does this go? 00:34:59.139 --> 00:35:02.500 Like, can you use the museum to help get this 00:35:02.500 --> 00:35:07.420 goal moving as some respects? Yeah. Yeah. So 00:35:07.420 --> 00:35:11.800 this focused on, yeah, like undergraduates. Yeah, 00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:16.239 we can definitely use the museum and expand on 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.780 this. I do have ideas. I don't want to necessarily 00:35:18.780 --> 00:35:22.219 get scooped. Yeah, it's funny how that works. 00:35:22.969 --> 00:35:24.429 It's always a problem when you have a whole bunch 00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:26.030 of other people and you know you have a pretty 00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:28.230 good story and you want to talk about it, but 00:35:28.230 --> 00:35:31.570 you're like, oh, if I talk about it too loudly 00:35:31.570 --> 00:35:33.630 and I'm not quite ready to put pen to paper, 00:35:33.769 --> 00:35:38.030 I'm potentially sabotaging my own work. It's 00:35:38.030 --> 00:35:40.610 rough because science is built on this ability 00:35:40.610 --> 00:35:43.389 to share results, but the reality of it is that 00:35:43.389 --> 00:35:46.269 you also want to be able to take these ideas 00:35:46.269 --> 00:35:51.510 to as far as you can. It's a tricky thing, for 00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:54.750 sure. Oh yeah, most definitely. I think people 00:35:54.750 --> 00:35:58.250 under -appreciate that when you're not in sciences. 00:35:59.289 --> 00:36:03.309 Yeah, but the research can definitely be expanded. 00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:06.530 It doesn't necessarily have to always be qualitative. 00:36:07.389 --> 00:36:10.449 There is a way to do this quantitatively. Yeah, 00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:13.389 is that going to be your next step, is to broaden 00:36:13.389 --> 00:36:17.130 this into quantitative spheres? Yeah, that's 00:36:17.130 --> 00:36:20.800 currently... currently working on that awesome 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.940 yeah okay so now we've covered everything and 00:36:25.940 --> 00:36:28.619 we're almost to the traditional last question 00:36:28.619 --> 00:36:34.139 time um feared and celebrated last question but 00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:36.699 before we do that um is there anything you want 00:36:36.699 --> 00:36:40.360 to call out or make mention of i don't know Anything 00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:44.000 at all, future work, past work, colleagues, anything? 00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:46.480 Oh, I mean, sure. I mean, look, I could definitely 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:50.320 not have been where I am now without my family. 00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:54.780 My parents, specifically, they've done more than 00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:59.679 they can ever know. And I can't necessarily put 00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:02.579 that into words, you know. Also definitely want 00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:04.880 to thank my friend and colleague, Allie, because 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.250 she was, you know, kind of the one who... really 00:37:08.250 --> 00:37:11.730 got me to move this way. None of this would have 00:37:11.730 --> 00:37:15.750 been possible without her either. And also my 00:37:15.750 --> 00:37:20.949 PhD advisor, Angela. So this was actually part 00:37:20.949 --> 00:37:25.050 of my dissertation. Angela is an amazing advisor. 00:37:25.610 --> 00:37:29.489 12 out of 10. Absolutely fantastic. She's great. 00:37:30.090 --> 00:37:33.349 Awesome. Okay. So now for the traditional last 00:37:33.349 --> 00:37:38.860 question. Tell us your favorite. Science joke. 00:37:39.739 --> 00:37:43.920 Okay. My favorite science joke. So, what did 00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:46.940 the sun say when the moon leaned in to kiss it? 00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:55.460 I don't know. Eek! Lips. Oh, these are so great. 00:37:55.659 --> 00:37:57.880 Some of them, they're so terrible. They're awesome. 00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:00.159 And some of them are so awesome, they're terrible. 00:38:00.659 --> 00:38:04.239 Yes. It always takes people. I tell this to my 00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.739 students all the time. Hopefully you get more 00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:09.820 laughter than I ever got. Every time I told a 00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:11.719 joke in front of 300 people, you could hear a 00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:14.519 pin drop until I say it was like, oh, come on, 00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.380 guys. I know it was bad, but was it really that 00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:18.260 bad? And then everybody would start laughing. 00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:22.360 And I never understood that. That's my favorite. 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:25.260 All right. Well, thanks for being on. And thank 00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:27.199 you so much for having me. Check out the show 00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:29.960 notes for the access to the paper and the museum 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.409 and everything else. So. I'll see you guys again 00:38:32.409 --> 00:38:34.289 in two weeks. This is the normal time of the 00:38:34.289 --> 00:38:35.849 show when I say, if you haven't already done 00:38:35.849 --> 00:38:39.110 so, subscribe, leave a rating, poke me on social 00:38:39.110 --> 00:38:42.650 media. In fact, just hopefully, I may have gotten 00:38:42.650 --> 00:38:45.170 a really cool guest that'll come on in the new 00:38:45.170 --> 00:38:48.590 year from social media interaction. Amazing. 00:38:49.150 --> 00:38:53.289 And next one is a Christmas special of sorts, 00:38:53.429 --> 00:38:56.130 but don't worry, it's not actually about Christmas. 00:38:56.670 --> 00:39:01.920 I'll see you in two weeks. In the world so chaotic, 00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:07.260 so misbehaved. Echoes of melodies remind us it's 00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:14.159 always. Colors weave stories painting the sky. 00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:34.679 Swaying to rhythms as the galaxies fly by. our 00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:42.539 bones through this melodic maze our minds explore 00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:49.780 chasing down wonders always seeking