1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,960 Hello everyone and welcome back to our podcast the researchers round table. 2 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:17,240 In this episode we will talk to Dr. Sam Amsberg a lecturer at University of San Francisco. 3 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:22,720 Sam works on plant cell wall and he will share his passion for science. 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,980 So for quite a long time when I was a really little kid I was really interested in science 5 00:00:27,980 --> 00:00:30,360 and ecology and pollution. 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,320 And his journey to become a lecturer at University of San Francisco. 7 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:39,920 I'd say it's been quite a steep learning curve so I was very fortunate I finished my PhD 8 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:41,720 and lined up. 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,200 He shares his experience during his early career research fellowship. 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:51,520 I think your grant has to be focused, your proposal has to have, you can't. 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,720 And how does Sam unwind himself? 12 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,240 After weekend to do whatever I want to do, go and see friends, I've got allotment, I 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,600 go and guard and take time. 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:07,520 There is much more to learn from Sam's journey from undergrad to PhD, from postdoc to current 15 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:08,520 lecturer. 16 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:14,040 A good example of having work life balance because I feel like those sorts of things 17 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,600 have to come from the top. 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,200 If your PI works all the time it is always in. 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:27,960 So stay tuned to learn more. 20 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:33,240 Welcome to our show Sam, can you tell me about your current position in the Sheffield? 21 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:39,000 Yes, so at Sheffield I'm a lecturer but I've just started that position in January so I 22 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,640 was on an early career fellowship before that and when that rolled to the end I was lucky 23 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:48,520 that Sheffield were recruiting so I applied for a lecturer job and just started that. 24 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,160 So that's nice. 25 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:55,840 So I will start this conversation with again like when it inspired you to come to science 26 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,000 as a child or what time you realised I need to go for the science? 27 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,280 So for quite a long time when I was a really little kid I was really interested in science 28 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,600 and ecology and pollution, my parents were quite interested in that and then I sort of 29 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:17,860 lost interest in it through my teenage years and towards the end of school I became really 30 00:02:17,860 --> 00:02:18,860 interested in biology. 31 00:02:18,860 --> 00:02:24,560 I had a really inspirational biology teacher so I applied for a biology degree at university 32 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,960 so that's really my kind of origin story in science and then I really enjoyed my degree 33 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:35,400 so that's when I decided I kind of want to stay in this area and keep doing that. 34 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,560 So you did your master from Sheffield or? 35 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:45,320 I didn't do a master so I did my degree at Manchester first in biology and then I transitioned 36 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:52,560 to plant science and then I did a PhD in Sheffield and then went away a bit to work in Leeds 37 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,400 and then I've been in Sheffield ever since. 38 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,640 So I will start again with the PhD, what was the topic, what were you working on, how you 39 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:06,280 come to like I need to go for this, you know scientists to work with? 40 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:13,120 Well there's a mix of personal and professional reasons so we wanted to stay up in the region 41 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,120 so Sheffield is very close to Manchester where I did my degree and my partner was working 42 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:23,880 in Manchester at the time but also my third year undergraduate project supervisor knew 43 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,040 my PhD supervisor in Sheffield well and so recommended the project because it was in 44 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:34,860 a related area on kind of the biomechanics of plant cell walls and gave me a good reference 45 00:03:34,860 --> 00:03:42,080 so I applied for it and initially I didn't get it and then there was another project 46 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:47,640 available and I got it on the second swing so it was a bit of luck but really I was just 47 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,640 looking for plant science related projects that were interesting and there was a lot 48 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,240 of different projects at the time that interested me but this one was about something related 49 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,600 to my third year project so I felt I had a little bit to offer to it. 50 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,880 So currently you're working on cell plants cell wall and all those things so during your 51 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,880 PhD you did the same thing? 52 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:13,960 Yes in a different system so I worked in my PhD on very specifically the kind of nano 53 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:20,480 biomechanics of stomatal cell walls and then I've kept some of those techniques and taken 54 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,200 them forward in my career but I've sort of broadened that out to look at cell walls in 55 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:30,520 other contexts and kind of broadened that research strand. 56 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:36,720 Oh great so during your postdoc because after your PhD I have seen your track like you 57 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,840 moved there was no any gap like you have continued to float for you know PSD then postdoc then 58 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:43,200 the discovery fellow. 59 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,000 Yeah I've been very fortunate. 60 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,600 So can you tell me briefly about like how is the journey from like a postdoc to early 61 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,440 careers like a discovery fellow and all? 62 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:59,120 I'd say it's been quite a steep learning curve so I was very fortunate I finished my PhD 63 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,840 and lined up a job in Leeds with a postdoc with Joseline Venitas Alfonso who was then 64 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:10,560 doctor is now professor and I was very fortunate that she's an incredibly supportive supervisor 65 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,540 so she really encouraged me to develop my own ideas and apply for things and she provided 66 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:21,960 me with a lot of support for writing the discovery fellowship application and I was still living 67 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,720 in Sheffield at the time from my PhD so I had a vested interest in moving back to Sheffield 68 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,720 and I really like the department at Sheffield they have really brilliant growth facilities 69 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,560 and there's just a really big group of plant scientists there's a lot of people to bounce 70 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:42,280 ideas off so I kind of wanted to be back in Sheffield and I just applied for it and it 71 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:47,480 was a really long process to write it so I guess the first bit of advice would be start 72 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,760 a year in advance of when you need it to start because it took a long time to go through 73 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,880 the interviews and the reviews. 74 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,480 Yeah it's my personal like a question like is it when you're applying for independent 75 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:04,120 philosophy your profile really matter because sometimes you are leaving your PhD you don't 76 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,240 have that much profile but we say like oh you need some paper for like large paper big 77 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,520 paper something. 78 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:19,560 There's a mix I would say yes obviously your profile does matter but I was not the most 79 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,760 prolific PhD student I had I had a nice paper for my PhD and then in my postdoc we had a 80 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:30,360 couple of small additional papers but I did not have a huge CV with loads of big impact 81 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,360 nature science papers and loads of first author papers so I think you need to have something 82 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:42,040 to show that you can drive a research project through to a good publication but field specific 83 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:47,640 publications that are kind of lower impact I think are fine and you've then just got 84 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,640 to write a really good good project that's really well articulated that sells the problem 85 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:58,520 well and I think that's as long as your CV is good enough I think the project and how 86 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:04,120 you present it and how you sell the idea is really more important. 87 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:10,120 So it's like you can apply it's not matter that you should have a nature or something 88 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:16,380 but I think the area of interest where you're applying for the post like you working you're 89 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:21,240 you know when I see your work it seems like you have moved from but you haven't left that 90 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,920 area of research and it seems like you have you know grip on those subject when you're 91 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,200 writing people can see that but yeah this guy can bring something new. 92 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,000 Yeah kind of build on your skill set if you start something completely different you have 93 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,720 no track record on it even if you've got papers in a different field. 94 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,040 Yeah so it's happened with me like I started with my map kind of signaling back in India 95 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:45,280 I did in macroanalyzing assist then moved to glucose signaling then go to AVS signaling 96 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:51,040 and later now I'm doing the simulation so somehow I feel like there is no particular 97 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:56,040 thing that I'm working but I feel like I'm working on post translation modification. 98 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:01,800 But thing is that even I feel like when I'm communicating and writing a grant for something 99 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,760 I feel like where I should focus rather than like I don't have the you know niche where 100 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,680 I can go and say like okay I want to work over there but it's a post translation modification 101 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,640 which makes sometimes harder for people like other people also maybe thinking like we have 102 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,920 moved in multiple projects that may be one of the reason that they're you know grant 103 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,840 gain are not successful. 104 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:26,600 Yeah I think I mean I think your grant has to be focused your proposal has to have you 105 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,320 can't try and incorporate everything that you've done and it's fine to have developed 106 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,520 some avenues of research that you've then not followed up on because you still learn 107 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:36,520 from that. 108 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,520 Yeah. 109 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,440 But there should be it should build on something that you already know how to do that might 110 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:47,280 be methodology you might apply existing methodology to a new system or you might continue to 111 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,040 ask the similar questions to you've asked in your postdoc and take them in a slightly 112 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:52,040 different direction. 113 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,680 So it doesn't have to build on everything you might have done a PhD and a postdoc in 114 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:59,960 different fields and it might only build on one of them not not on both of them. 115 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,320 I think that's totally fine. 116 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,400 That's right. 117 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:09,200 So if I say I know postdoc is always like sometimes you know very hectic to cope up 118 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,960 with all this like you have a two years of postdoc there's insecurity that after two 119 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,640 years what will happen because of the your funding and all. 120 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,560 So how do you deal with that from like if I have this year or two years I have to give 121 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:24,280 this data but suddenly you don't know how much time it will take your research because 122 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,280 it's like uncertainty in the world. 123 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:33,840 Yeah I found the short term nature of it quite tricky at times and I think you've got to 124 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:40,400 be really careful to prioritize the most important strands not the easiest wins. 125 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,840 So it can be tempting to say oh this experiment will only take me two days to get the results 126 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,560 I'll do that and then you do another experiment and another one. 127 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:50,360 But actually sometimes the most important thing that actually going to be key for the 128 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:56,200 paper you put it off but that might take eight months to do that so you need to get that 129 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:57,920 started. 130 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:03,160 But I think all career stages now I've got my own independent position you still feel 131 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,680 like you're juggling a lot of things and you're prioritizing and there's a lot still a lot 132 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:12,440 of pressure and time frames to get things done and get funding in so that doesn't go 133 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:13,760 away it just evolves. 134 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:19,880 So I think that pressure time of the postdoc is kind of teaching you how to deal with those 135 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,600 pressures and how to manage multiple threads at once and how to prioritize. 136 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,600 You do need to be able to do that to a certain extent to run a research group. 137 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:37,480 So it's totally different as a postdoc and as an independent PI because in the independent 138 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:43,360 you have to take care of your projects your tenure to complete and all those things but 139 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,240 as a postdoc we have different perspective because I'm a postdoc I'm focusing on that 140 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,040 because I don't know what will be there. 141 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,600 I think the pressures evolve and are different but certainly with the postdoc it's the instability 142 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,440 I think is the hardest bit because if you don't get stuff through to publication it 143 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:05,280 can be quite challenging and I mean I'm still trying to push out a publication from my postdoc 144 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,240 because I didn't get it finished within the postdoc and then it's hard to find time and 145 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,080 it's frustrating for me how long that's taken it's frustrating for my PI and at least how 146 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,320 long that's taken and we're really trying to push it out and I'm afraid there's no easy 147 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,800 fix for it it's just hard but I think real careful prioritization of what is going to 148 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:29,720 get me what's the minimum I need to get a paper out of this do that get the paper kind 149 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:30,720 of get an output. 150 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,080 Yeah prioritize the things what is needed not other than exploring every aspect and 151 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,520 you are ending with nothing in your hand. 152 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,160 Don't save everything up for that hypothetical nature paper obviously if you've got a really 153 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,800 big story you might want to try for that big impact journal. 154 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:51,960 But at the same time I feel like at the same time when you're aiming for high papers but 155 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,760 you have to be realistic upon your work what you're doing because sometimes you can't say 156 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,680 this paper is going to be in the highest impact journal you have to be open up with like okay 157 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:05,240 if I'm doing these things if it's a novelty let's try it but sometimes you can't say okay 158 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,480 I can stay for more one year I could try that can drive like a three or four years you're 159 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,480 ending with nothing. 160 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:16,160 I mean you know not the high impact but four years spend you got one so somehow sometimes 161 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:22,720 feel like as we spend more time in the postdoc and our publication drops that's also negative 162 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,000 for the career like in the future if you're applying for some kind of independent philosophy 163 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,520 because in three years what you got is like this impact factor. 164 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,120 Yeah I think there's a real balance and I think it's quite damaging for science the 165 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:41,040 obsession with impact factor that we've generated and it doesn't lead I think to the best science. 166 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,520 Best practices yeah that's right. 167 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:50,000 But I do think there's different scales of impact and you do need your publications to 168 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:56,720 go to a good rigorous journal that's respected in your field but I think it's far more useful 169 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:03,320 for your career to have a slightly smaller paper but that you very clearly lead on than 170 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:09,600 maybe be one of many authors on a huge paper because you're one of the big things about 171 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,840 transitioning from the postdoc stage into an independent stage is being able to demonstrate 172 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,600 your independence and your leadership and that's very hard you know no one gets a nature 173 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:25,520 paper on their own those papers have you know it can become quite hard to demonstrate your 174 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,240 independence and your contribution. 175 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,000 And certainly sometimes it may help you as a teamwork you can say like you can work in 176 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,800 a team that's good for like postdoc because you can work in multiple projects because 177 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,200 when you join a lab you don't have to work on one project rather than you have to supervise 178 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,640 sometimes PhD sometimes master and something like that so that that can define like you 179 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,880 can work in a team but ultimately like you said small paper also matter because you lead 180 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,320 them by yourself and you come to that one and small paper again can add multiple things 181 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,680 like and finally you can say that you can lead the big project as well because as a 182 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:05,280 career we cannot apply for the big grant first of all but like a small grant we can apply 183 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,360 like for me like I'm looking for like a next one what will be either independent fellowship 184 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,720 which I can take it because when I apply for the postdoc now I spent three or four years 185 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,240 here in Durham and I apply for the job which doesn't have the criteria of my salary according 186 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,560 to that and I feel like they won't be taking because they have mentioned this one and like 187 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,160 this one the salary range so I sometimes feel like either you have to approach in such a 188 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,080 way either independent philosophy be applied for together so that will be more entertaining 189 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,640 rather than I will go for like open post everywhere they have means and already like we have this 190 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,520 range so I feel what do you suggest. 191 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,640 I think that's a very yeah kind of a very personal decision but certainly the independent 192 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:51,560 fellowship gives you a bit more freedom to set your own parameters for every aspect of 193 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:57,680 the job you kind of have a little bit more freedom to set your salary although still 194 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:03,360 within institutional boundaries and you've got a lot more freedom on the direction of 195 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:10,380 the project but it is a lot of work to put a fellowship together and obviously the success 196 00:15:10,380 --> 00:15:14,880 rate is low because they're very competitive so there's pros and cons I think if you can 197 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,120 get a fellowship they're fantastic they really give you time to develop your ideas and your 198 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:25,400 independence while you don't have say as a lecturer you've got teaching constraints 199 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,880 as well but you don't have that so much as a as an early career fellow so if you can 200 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,800 get them they're amazing but obviously they're competitive and there's plenty of brilliant 201 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:40,600 scientists that don't get independent fellowships and I think it's important that they still 202 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,340 try and go for for lecturer jobs and things because you don't need a fellowship to move 203 00:15:45,340 --> 00:15:49,040 into a lecturer position yeah plenty of people still don't. 204 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:54,800 Yeah so recently I was applying for like a assistant professor in India and they have 205 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,720 criteria for different like if you're applying for assistant professor you have to be like 206 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:04,200 master or PhD no more experience but associate professor maybe five years after PhD you have 207 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:09,000 to have experience of this one or industrial experience or teaching experience I came to 208 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,920 like teaching experience in UK I don't know how many postdocs go for teaching because 209 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,880 they don't allow sometimes like you have to work so somehow you're not developing yourself 210 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,320 as a looking for like assistant professor or lecturer or something because they will 211 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,640 ask do you have experience but no because in the PhD you just went for demonstrating 212 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,400 and experiment not like a teaching on so I feel like that's missing in. 213 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,320 Yeah I think that's a very good point and I should say my experience is obviously is 214 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:43,280 very UK centric because I've only worked in the UK system and I've got family ties here 215 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:49,520 so I'm not planning to move outside the UK system so it's not something I'd considered 216 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,640 because if you're a postdoc applying for lecturer jobs in the UK there's no real expectation 217 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,880 that you've done a significant amount of teaching because that's what the system in the UK is. 218 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:06,880 It's a challenge for kind of other job markets that have different expectations and yeah 219 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:13,160 I hadn't considered I think there are opportunities at postdoc to teach often for example I don't 220 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:19,400 know what it's like here in Sheffield we have modules that have got like teaching focused 221 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:24,200 stuff on them but then we have research focused guest lectures in those modules to give students 222 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:30,080 exposure to kind of research led stuff and we sometimes have postdocs delivering those 223 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,760 and so then you've got kind of examples of giving lectures and running practicals and 224 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:35,760 things like that. 225 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Yeah that's really wonderful because here I feel like PhD scholars can opt for the demonstrator 226 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,400 because they can be paid for that one and that's good but as a postdoc sometimes we 227 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,200 feel like we haven't got any chances for like you know interaction with the undergrad or 228 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,560 like a teaching experience you can include but sometimes like if there is a module where 229 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,560 you can give a seminar so we approach over there they will be not paying for that but 230 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,160 at least we are getting the experience for like interaction with the students that can 231 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:08,840 may help you in later because suddenly when I am applying for this job I can say at least 232 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:14,200 yeah I have worked for with a master and all but not completely like a lectureship or something 233 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,520 like for one month or something but there is a one or two class I have taken for this 234 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:18,520 one. 235 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:24,840 Yeah I think giving a couple of guest lectures here or there gives you you can spin that 236 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,040 to be quite a lot on your CV if you need to. 237 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:35,480 So I will come back to you like as an independent researcher how do you unwind yourself when 238 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:41,680 you are working in the lab or the office and applying for grants and all how do you unwind 239 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,360 yourself? 240 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:48,360 So I mean I have a two year old at home so there is not a lot of relaxing but because 241 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:57,040 she is manic but I try and be quite boundaried and I think I try and not to let work bleed 242 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,600 into personal life too much sometimes you do have to I do have to do a little bit of 243 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,920 work in the evening and the weekends but for the most part my work day is when I work and 244 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:11,080 then when I go home my laptop stays at work or it is in my bag and I do not think about 245 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:17,800 it and I tell people in my lab that they will not get any response from me over the weekend 246 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,840 but I also will not be emailing them over the weekend. 247 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:26,560 And yeah try not to think about work in a work way I think about science still because 248 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,520 I am interested in science but yeah spend time with my family and kind of have the weekend 249 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:36,040 to do whatever I want to do go and see friends I have got an allotment I go and garden take 250 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:43,440 time away from it and also in work I try and give myself time to think so if you are constantly 251 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,280 doing little jobs here and there you never think and I sometimes just try and give myself 252 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:53,160 an hour where I will go and sit in a coffee shop and just with a notebook and just take 253 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,840 some notes think about work with no computer so you are not distracted by emails or finishing 254 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:03,920 of a job just sketching out ideas but crucially that is work so that happens in the work day 255 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,800 I am thinking and I am planning so it is a work job so it happens in the work day. 256 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,440 That's right. 257 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,600 I also like you said I can't carry this notebook with me if I am distracted too much with my 258 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:21,200 work because whenever I am looking at my laptop I start doing like oh I have to work this 259 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,720 one then I realise oh I have to apply for my post-op position so all the time I am like 260 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,520 switching from one to another so and it is like you can do it because you are just typing 261 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,480 like oh post-op position in the UK you are moving but you are not focusing and one hour 262 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,960 I will spend and I will be like too much distressed so I feel like you said go to coffee shop 263 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:45,440 go to I mostly go to the drum is really nice place you know it is like a nice garden you 264 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,960 can go and just sit over there and just listen to the music and relax so yeah that is a good 265 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:50,960 one. 266 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,760 There is a lot of evidence about how constant task switching basically reduces how much 267 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:01,160 you are able to focus on a thing and so every time you task switch you are losing focus 268 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,120 and you are not regaining that when you switch back and so you lose productivity so it is 269 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:11,800 better to try and carve out kind of bits of time for those sorts of important jobs without 270 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,120 being distracted. 271 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:22,480 If I ask you like how is it different now because as a post-doc all the time I am thinking 272 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:28,000 about my work it is like you know you have to bring that work before your contract ends 273 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,920 but as a PI you know that you have to carry on but you have to also focus on your personal 274 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,780 life and you know work balance something like that but is it different like how you did 275 00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:40,200 when you were doing post-doc? 276 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:47,680 I always tried to be quite bound read I feel like now that I kind of lead people in a lab 277 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:54,000 I try and set a good example of having work life balance because I feel like those sorts 278 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,840 of things have to come from the top if your PI works all the time and is always in it 279 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,160 the expectation bleeds onto your post-docs and PhDs and I do not have that expectation 280 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,960 of them. 281 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:11,840 I think I am still thinking about stuff a lot of the time and it is just what I think 282 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,440 about different before I was thinking about finishing that experiment now I am thinking 283 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,160 about do I have time to go into the lab I have to write that lecture, shall I submit 284 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,080 a grant but I am also thinking about trying to keep on top of the PhD students project 285 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,760 so that when I speak to them I know what they are doing and they do not feel like I am out 286 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,200 of touch with their project. 287 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:39,120 It is better and worse there is more things to think about but then also I know that the 288 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:42,400 students are doing some of the thinking as well because they are managing their own project 289 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:49,720 to a certain extent so yeah it is kind of similar but with nuances I would say. 290 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,760 So how do you explain because I was working with the research culture so we were talking 291 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:01,680 about what kind of you know what do you think about the research culture according to your 292 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,400 personal view because as a work ethic most of the time we are like okay you are working 293 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:11,160 on so sometimes you spend extra time Saturday Sunday people are working day and night that 294 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,440 is good for some time because this is demanding for this week only not for like a whole year 295 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,000 how do you think about this toxic culture or something? 296 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:28,480 I think it is very very hit and miss I think different places but also within a place different 297 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:35,320 people have healthier or less healthy attitudes and I think it is a reasonable expectation 298 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,920 with the way science works that it is not always nine to five but if someone has got 299 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,000 an experiment that say runs late or runs over the weekend I think it is a perfectly fair 300 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,080 expectation that you take that time back the following week or the next month or whenever 301 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:53,080 time lets up and what you cannot allow to happen is that feeling of busy busy busy 302 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:59,440 busy to elongate and be content especially when you have got PhDs and postdocs that you 303 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:06,640 are managing as a manager I think it is really it is the PI's responsibility to manage those 304 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:12,720 pressures and to take some of that pressure so when I was working with Jocelyn in Leeds 305 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,720 we had a meeting and she said to me once she is like I think you are I can see that you 306 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,960 are stretched too thin I think you are stretching yourself too far and you are going to burn 307 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,160 yourself out we need to rejig this work load and she had that kind of and initially I did 308 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,840 not respond very well because I felt like she was criticising me she was not she was 309 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,480 protecting me and she was saying no I can see that you are doing too many things and 310 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,720 you are not having time to rest I need to take some off you and that is I think that 311 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:43,960 is the PI's job and I think some PI's will naturally do that better than others and I 312 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:50,480 think it is important that institutions have a set of minimum expectations that they enforce 313 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,800 with their PI's and there is clear pathways for people in those groups if those expectations 314 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:04,040 are not being met to raise them but I think there are lots of there is lots of progress 315 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:09,040 on research culture certainly in the UK but there is still also plenty of negatives but 316 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:14,320 I think it is often overlooked that there is lots of negatives in other fields as well 317 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,000 I have friends that work in the kind of the tech sector and there is all sorts of toxic 318 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:26,840 cultures there not saying that is an excuse but I think sometimes academia is maybe unfairly 319 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,840 demonised for not being better than other jobs when it is actually just the same as 320 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:31,840 other jobs. 321 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:32,840 Yeah that is right. 322 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:40,360 We are coming to the end of this podcast however I will ask if you have any suggestions for 323 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:48,200 the undergrad or postdoc or as an early career scientist what do you give them? 324 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:54,440 I would say don't expect everything to run smoothly and to work certainly when you get 325 00:25:54,440 --> 00:26:00,560 into kind of lab projects and research projects stuff goes wrong or you don't get results 326 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,600 that you expect or you get conflicting results and if you get disheartened by that that is 327 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,520 going to happen throughout your whole career you have really got to learn to manage that 328 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:17,680 and be kind of resilient and sometimes that might turn into a win sometimes that is just 329 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,360 a bad avenue and you have to change tack but learning to deal with that I think gives you 330 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,480 the resilience to carry on. 331 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:34,440 Yeah most of the time I am saying my personal view because when I work on something I put 332 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,000 myself in that work and suddenly you realise it is not working and I am spending one month 333 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,600 or six months. 334 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,880 Sometimes I feel like it is like my personal view like is it worth to come to the science 335 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,920 like it is like you are questioning yourself and sometimes you don't find answer or support 336 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,640 from other people because there is things sometimes you can't discuss with the people 337 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,960 even your friend because they will oh Prakash come on you are not doing enough maybe people 338 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:03,080 think like that way right so you know how do you going to suggest like if you come to 339 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:10,440 this point I suggest myself like you are doing science you know that it won't be hard first 340 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,260 thing you won't be getting the experiment one day and you get the data you will be happy 341 00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:21,560 but stick over there but sometimes I feel very negative for myself it's like. 342 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,240 Yeah I think that's tough and there is a lot of imposter syndrome in science where people 343 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:32,240 that are really good think that they are not very good but if you are in industry industry 344 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,240 would have lots of checkpoints where they say right if we have not achieved this by 345 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,560 then we can't proceed if we have not achieved this by then or we need these to work for 346 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,400 this to be a viable avenue and I think sometimes in academia we get a little bit too emotionally 347 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:52,520 attached to the work because we find it fascinating and it's cool and you want to address the 348 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:59,480 question but it's not always a good use of mental resources and I think building in the 349 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,960 checkpoints early so during my PhD I had a big AFM atomic force microscopy project and 350 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,440 it was really challenging and there was an element of it that we ended up abandoning 351 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,680 but we decided before we even started it we were like right if we have not achieved this 352 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,120 by this point we are going to move on because we don't have time so it means when we hadn't 353 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:20,600 it wasn't like a shock to me because I knew that was what we were building to and I knew 354 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,320 we had an end point as well so I think if we built those in it makes it a little bit 355 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:30,040 easier but it's always hard to let go of a bit of a research project that you feel a 356 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:36,160 lot of affection but sometimes it's for the best and an experiment not working isn't a 357 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:42,480 reflection on the researchers ability sometimes experiments are just not tracked. 358 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,760 Or the hypothesis is wrong but it was the best hypothesis of the time or we don't have 359 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,120 the technology yet maybe in 10 years there'll be a new tool and that'll be easier. 360 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,640 Yeah that's right. 361 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,240 Alright so thank you Sam for coming to our podcast. 362 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:04,680 Before ending can you say something for your group if somebody wants to join your group 363 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,560 as a PhD or you know postdoc, say anything? 364 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:15,760 Well actually yeah I'll be looking for PhD students to work on well there's a bit of 365 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:21,520 flexibility actually but around cell wall development in plants or fungi and the role 366 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:28,760 of that in pathogenicity and in stress responses and I'll be looking at that towards the end 367 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:35,680 of this year looking for students so if people are interested for PhD it'll be on my Twitter 368 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:42,960 which is at Sam Amesbury and I'm hoping to get postdoc funding soon and so again postdoc 369 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,760 will be advertised through the same. 370 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,440 So thank you so much Sam for coming and all the best for your career. 371 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,440 Thank you for having me. 372 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:51,440 Thank you. 373 00:29:51,440 --> 00:30:10,560 Wow.