Hello everyone, this is Prakash and welcome to the researcher's roundtable podcast.
And thank you so much for supporting our last two episodes with the researchers roundtable
guest, Johar Singh and Adil Khan.
In this episode, we have a guest Jack Bell.
Jack did his PhD from Durham University and recently he has been employed as a postdoctoral
research fellow.
People will be sharing his experience as a postdoc, as a PhD scholar and he's gonna share
with some of the expertise he has gone during his PhD.
Work life balance is something that most PhDs I've seen have not.
Okay then, you want to say anything extra, then you're gonna stop.
Alright let's go.
Alright welcome back to SoulJack.
So can you tell me about yourself?
Wow, that's an open ended question.
What do you want to know?
Just like what you do or?
Sure, professionally yeah.
So I'm a postdoc at Durham University in the Biosciences Department.
I work as a protein engineer so I produce recombinant protein.
We make bio insecticides so we use natural toxins derived from spider venom.
We don't work with spiders, we make them in yeast and we through a bit of scientific magic
we fuse them to another protein which gives them insecticidal activity.
So we're making natural pesticides.
Okay, would you like to know what exactly your educational background is?
Why you chose a science like undergrad and PhD?
Sure, so I dropped out of secondary school at the age of 16.
I didn't like school, didn't like academia, so I did nothing for like a year or two.
I looked for apprenticeships, I don't know if you know what apprenticeships are.
So I only found ones where I was offered like half of minimum wage, like three pound an
hour to basically make coffee for an office.
After two years of looking for jobs like that and doing nothing really, I kind of found
a passion for science mostly through podcasts and watching YouTube videos and stuff like
that like documentaries.
So I decided to, again, that was mostly biology and chemistry, so I decided to do a foundation
course.
That's where I have to kind of retake my A levels which I missed because I dropped out
of school.
The course led me to an undergraduate in biochemistry, which then led me to a master's in protein
engineering.
That was my main fascination with my undergraduate was the idea of making, I mean proteins are
cool right?
Proteins carry out every function in our body and the idea of kind of hacking that, like
biohacking and like making our own proteins is what really led me to want to pursue research,
PhD, protein engineering.
So this thought, when it came to your mind like two, three or four or five years ago,
what time exactly?
Because recently somebody got the Nobel Prize for the protein engineering.
Because before that must be your thinking, means it's really new things, you know, because
protein engineering is now the next step for the biotechnology or something.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So the Nobel Prize, you know who that went to?
I don't know the name, but I don't know what's the name, but do you know that?
I can't remember.
I should.
But the lady won that one.
Yeah, it was the woman in chemical engineering.
It was the Nobel Prize in chemistry, but it was in protein engineering.
So you say how long ago was that?
So, you know, this was the research lab that I was in for my masters, the only really competing
lab for exactly what they were doing, which was, it was guided evolution.
Okay.
Right.
So kind of like a high throughput protein design where you produce an array and then
you kind of subject them to a selection pressure.
Right.
Like evolution.
And you design a protein in that way.
The only other lab doing that at the time was a lab in California where the woman who
was carrying out that research won the Nobel Prize for protein engineering.
I can say you are the third one in that series that you still are working on.
It's a novel thing.
Few people in the world, they are working.
It's a literally new topic actually.
Nobody is exploring too much because I feel when I was doing a master, I was in the biochemistry
laboratory.
Mostly we were doing the enzyme activity, like a peroxidase activities and all those
things.
But not like the protein engineering.
It was really cool when I hear like people can make this kind of Nobel Prize when you
are working simply mutation and all those things in general into the new form.
It was really nice.
Yeah.
I mean, the reason I liked her Nobel Prize was it was less of a rational process that
she was carrying out.
So it wasn't so much, I know exactly how a protein is going to fold.
I can design a structure.
It was kind of copying the power of nature.
So like we've done in so many other ways with like antibiotics and stuff.
It was looking at the way that natural selection works and kind of...
You produce a lot of protein, then you look for which protein will be the most stable.
Like sometimes you produce like a 60, 70, 80, 100 sometimes.
And a few of those will be like you're expecting that this is structurally stable.
Let's go for the purification and then all those things.
Yeah, it's a long term, but it's still like it's challenging.
So with that one, I bring the new question.
What kind of challenges you faced when you started working in protein engineering, like
initial stage when you're doing in the PhD?
PhD, protein engineering, challenges I faced in protein engineering.
That's a good question.
None of the challenges were really in the engineering element.
In engineering, we use an amount of rational design, so there's some element of understanding
the interactions, the electrochemical interactions between amino acids in a protein, but not
much.
A lot of it is...
It's a good question.
Most of the issues that I've faced during my PhD have been in protein production.
You go into most biochemistry labs in the country that are producing protein, and they're
not struggling with the design of the protein.
It's easy enough to design a protein.
They'll be trying to figure out why isn't it expressing?
Why is my host not producing the protein?
Why can't I purify the protein?
And then why is my pure protein being degraded?
Those are the kind of common...
So those are the problems I faced during my PhD.
I design a protein, and by all of my understanding, it should work, it should exist, it should
be fine, but then the yeast won't make it, and when they do, it's degraded.
So how many times you feel like...
When I was doing protein purification, most of the time it's like I was facing my protein
is not in the soluble fraction, it's going to the inclusion body, and sometimes even
you purifying, the quantity is not that much.
So during my PhD, first year was like that, struggling with purifying the protein from
bacteria.
It's quite one year which take me a lot of time to figure out what exactly I have to
do, but after that I figured it out, exactly these things I need to take care when I'm
doing these things.
Anything happened with you like that?
What time exactly you realized during the PhD or what phase?
You know.
Sure, sure.
So the toxins that we produce, they have no oral activity, so the design that we carry
out is to enhance oral activity of our protein.
So I carried out that design and it resulted in the yeast producing truncated protein that
I couldn't purify, that had no activity, and I was blessed that six months later a research
group working with Google DeepMind released AlphaFold.
And it was kind of a bit of luck that it came out at that time, and I started using it in
my design process, and it essentially solved the issues that I was facing.
So the design that we were carrying out was flawed, and this, I mean, do you know much
about AlphaFold?
I guess I should probably say what AlphaFold is.
I don't know, because recently again they published this paper in the Nietzsche or somewhere
where they have used the next version of the AlphaFold, where you can predict a lot of
things you can do, play with the metal ion and all those things.
I really don't know what those things, but you started learning by yourself or somebody
was helping.
It's a trouble because sometimes software learning is not my area.
Absolutely.
It's not my area at all either.
Programming coding is not for me.
The beauty of AlphaFold is that it was immediately made open source, so it was made publicly
available to the research community.
And it was literally as easy as copying and pasting your primary sequence and you're given
a structural prediction, the likes of which I thought would be impossible in most of our
lifetimes, right?
But it was the main challenge of structural biology, was resolving structure from primary
sequence alone.
Yeah, without any going for crystallography or something like that.
Exactly.
Because that work would have been impossible with what I was doing, but the lab that I'm
in, we don't have the time or the money to crystallize all of our...
Yeah, hepatotope protein.
Exactly.
So being able to do it in silico obviously makes it accessible to tons of people and
it couldn't be easier.
It's an online interface, copy and paste your sequence and it provides enough output to
heavily modify the design of the proteins that we're working with.
Oh, great.
So, other question if you say, did you make any collaboration with any expert in the field?
Or you...
Did you think like...
You know, I always look for collaboration sometimes, like, oh, if I get the collaboration,
it will help you.
So, any collaboration in your work, help you or something like that?
No.
Not really.
So you are working on your own.
It's been a solitary pursuit.
Yeah, there's very few people...
Not to make it sound too good, but being at the real forefront like that meant that there
was zero publications.
There was...
I was unaware of any other labs that were using it in the way that I wanted to use the
software.
And even if they were, they were so far removed from my field of designing these neurotoxic
peptides that...
Yeah, it was a solitary pursuit for the most part of my PhD.
Yeah.
Okay.
So overall, how you define your research career?
In the long term, like if I say, would you like to be in research or you want to move
in other career opportunities like?
So I'm actually...
Really what fascinated me, and this has become a...
It's something that I've been thinking about a lot recently, is what it means to do research
and what I want to do.
So I've heard from academics recently that they would be happy to spend their entire
academic career researching a problem without ever solving that problem or producing something
that solves that problem.
Okay.
So you have to justify why you're doing your research.
And so often you have to word it in such a way as, here's an issue that the world faces.
But it seems like a lot of academics don't really want to solve that issue that they
claim that the world faces.
They just want to spend years tackling it from lots of different little angles, figuring
it out, but never really...
It's more like a basic science they want to do, but not like a applied concern.
Because most of the time what the people looking for the...
You know, a Catholic job is like, if you have a good CV, good publication, and most of the
time people are focusing on this aspect.
Rather than I will say, if you're engineering some proteins and that can solve some issues,
you know how much time you have to modify that protein and those kinds of things.
Suppose 10 PhD people are joining to the lab and they all fail, for example, because these
things are not so easy.
Right?
So most of the time I feel like in academy people are like, okay, let's do the simplest
experiment where we just prove that we could not solve the whole issue.
This is a big issue.
Sometimes people go for that one because as a postdoc, you don't have a time, for example,
where as a scientist, you can solve that because you're staying at that lab for a long time.
You can make those things, but as a postdoc, if I think about those things, I literally
can't make a big paper invention because I don't have that much time.
It's true.
I think even if you did have enough time, the nature of research is that...
You know, I produced a toxin in my PhD that was successful.
It worked.
And in the design process, rationally, I included a small pro region before the peptide that
we thought was necessary to allow the protein to be...
Just allow it to fold properly within the yeast.
That's how I designed the protein.
That's how I made the protein.
The protein worked.
Right?
Now, in an industry, that would be enough.
You'd say, here's a product.
It could solve a problem.
We can sell.
We can sell this.
Right?
In research, three years down the line, I've written my thesis and I'm moving on.
And my supervisor is telling me that we can't possibly publish that work because she would
have to produce the same protein without that pro region.
Right?
Which, hypothetically, we think it wouldn't work.
Right?
So you'd spend six months making it, thousands of pounds in lab equipment, and even more
in taxpayer grant funding money, just to demonstrate the null hypothesis.
And obviously, the null hypothesis is an important element of the scientific method.
But it also stands in the way of efficient production of a product, in many ways.
And I think that's what I've realized I've fallen out of love with with research, is
that it's not enough to just make something that works.
You have to prove why everything else wouldn't work.
Yeah.
That's like people for like that's control, like negative control.
You have to always take.
And even when I was doing a PhD and suddenly my boss said, do you have a GP controlled
transgenic?
And I was like, no, why would I need that?
And later I realized that was needed.
And it would have, you know, if I could have dipped the flower, flower dip over there,
I've got a transgenics and I could have the problem solved.
But later I realized, I think negative, even the negative that doesn't do it a lot, but
it's it's required, like, OK, for the experiment, you need a negative control or something.
All right.
So if you say, how do you balance your work life balance?
So I've just, you know, I'm I'm seven months out, eight months out of my PhD.
PhD, I think for a lot of people is a period of your life where you kind of forget how
to do anything outside of your work.
So it's been eight months of trying to figure that out, you know, coming out the other end
of the PhD, figuring out how to start life back up again.
How do I balance my work life?
So exercise is probably the biggest part, you know, whether it's gym, running, you know,
sports, badminton.
Yeah, I play with you.
Yeah.
So cooking, going out, spending money on shopping.
Yeah, you know, I feel like if I'm too much stressed, so it's like my therapy is like
if you can make yourself happy in any means like going for shopping, the shopping is the
best thing.
You don't hurt anyone.
First thing, your happiness.
You just spend the money.
And there is two things.
One thing, you become happy.
People say you can't buy the happiness, but it's not true for myself.
Like if I buy something like this machine I brought for my happiness, it's doing that
one.
In the same time, I say like, if I brought this one in the thousand pound, I should use
that one.
So it makes you like again, you know, motivated for why you brought the first step.
So I think that's good, actually.
But most of the problem I have heard from my colleagues is that during the PhD, when
they start, they are very much highly motivated.
And once in the second year, for example, they will be very much into the science and
they are the things to start, you know, not working.
And they start this, you know, work and life balance in the final years or after that.
But the problem arises like, when you're having these troubles, you don't look into this one.
Like, should I talk to someone about my work?
Or they will feel like you are judging them or something.
So I feel like if you balance this one from the beginning of your PhD or any job that
is required like a life and work balance rather than I would say in the end.
So I learned this lesson when I was doing PhD.
Most of the time I was in the lab, like from morning to evening again after that, because
we're living in the hostel.
So in the night after dinner, we will always go to the lab because you think like you will
be spent a lot of time in the lab, you will be more productive, for example.
Absolutely.
But that's not true.
I agree.
Yeah.
If I'm coming in the lab, like seven thirty and I'm going in like seven or eight and I'm
feeling I have a lot of time.
So my work speed will be very slow because I know that I have a lot of time.
So I will.
Okay, I will do it very slowly.
Yes.
And somehow if you are spending the whole week in the lab, you feel like a drain, you
burn out.
You don't want to again start on for the next week.
So I started doing that workout for myself when I was in third year of my PhD, second
year of my PhD.
My boss was not happy for the first time.
He said like, Prakash, you're spending going away at a four thirty or five thirty and it's
not good.
Right.
But my consistency, he saw like I'm going proper timing and he realized I'm more productive
at that time.
So later after a few months, he stated that look at it, look at it, Prakash.
He has very nice work and life balance.
I was not that much because I was going through a lot of pressure in the lab.
Then workout was one of the therapy for myself.
So yeah, I think most of the time either your peers or your supervisor will say you are
wasting your time.
Yes.
But in the end, actually, I feel like you should feel like it's important for you rather
than somebody is telling is good for you or not.
Yeah.
So I think that's most of the people do the workout and this badminton and all this play.
I mean, you make a good point about about where you have to know what the Ph.D. means
to you.
Yeah.
What what you're actually trying to get out of it.
If you're if you're spending that much time on something, then you know, you should be
able to put into clear words what the end goal is.
And for me, the end goal of the Ph.D. was always to learn to improve myself as a scientist
and a researcher and learn to work hard.
It was a it was a challenge.
It was to overcome the challenge of the Ph.D. as well.
And in some regards, just to have the Ph.D., just to just to have the certificate to be
a doctor for whatever benefit that brings you with your career perspective.
Right.
Yeah.
If those are the three things that you want, then then when I'm looking back at my Ph.D.
and I think of all the weekends that I spent here in the lab in the lab, was the fruitful
or like, well, exactly.
Did the weekends really contribute to any of those three things that I wanted?
No, I don't think so.
In some cases, maybe exceptional.
Like people get happy with working because they love the lab.
But at the end, whatever people are saying, like, I love my job, but your work life balance
is so important.
Your mental health is so important.
You should consider that one.
If somebody is saying most of people don't say, but suppose I'm saying, Jack, you are
working too hard.
I can see that.
Why I'm saying this so many times.
I've talked to you about those things.
Like, why are you working on Saturday?
I used to see you.
I used to see you know, no, because I'm not coming for like a whole day.
It's like, but it's like, yeah, keeping these things.
If you are aware of this, I call it self aware where you should know that what is good for
yourself and also be biased to yourself.
Like you need rest.
You need to rest sometime.
And I feel like whenever you're talking to some people, I usually say the late late in
the weekend or something, I always say, is it a long day or something?
So when you say these things, they realize, okay, I said, cool, I guess.
And a lot of people, when I was doing PhD, they used to look at me like, oh, Prakash
is still in the lab.
And they used to say like, go away from lab for some time, go away from your field of
research and talk to the non-specific people.
And that's where I started going to gym where the people are like an undergrad or different
profession.
You're not thinking about the science.
So that was therapy.
Like you learn something from, you know, away from your profession.
So that was one of the therapy and no one is going to judge over me like, oh, Prakash
is doing science again and he's doing this and that.
But that was like going away from your work.
And suddenly next day I am coming back to lab was like a new, fresh start for me rather
than I'm just going from the lab at nine and going to sleep in the morning, opening eyes
and coming back to the lab.
It's like too much challenge for me.
It's not good for your mental health and what, what use are you if you come into the lab
and you can't do your work because of your poor mental health?
Yeah.
So it's, I think working efficient efficiently is as important as working for a long time.
You know, it's quality, not quantity.
I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
I believe that one.
And this is my routine nowadays.
Like, so I did my PhD like that in the morning to evening that you are still in the lab.
Yes.
But when it came to UK, I feel like, no, I need my, this balance work-life balance.
So most of the time I talk to my supervisor, what exactly you want, because my life is
so much different because other people are staying with their partners and all those,
but I'm staying alone and sometimes I need to talk to my partner and back to India.
And this is like a different time point.
So one day I said, like, I can't come early in the morning because I need to focus on
both things, my personal life and work.
I clearly said this one.
Then he replied, okay, so you go according to your timings.
You come at nine or 10.
I don't care.
Just go through that one.
And somehow at the end he needs what he is expecting from you.
Right?
So I made myself like, okay, in the morning I will talk at that time.
That's like my starting of the day.
I can't avoid that because that is important.
Then come back to lab and I just focus myself.
Like I have a four or three or whatever time I do have, I just go for like a correct work,
work these things complete today and leave for the workout again, because it's again
like personal life, professional life back to therapy.
This is my routine.
So I felt that way.
Like, if you can manage these things for me, it's my personal view.
I'm happy with that because I'm also taking my personal life not completely avoided, professional
company not gone like, oh, I don't have a good relationship with my boss because he
said, you come late and you're going early.
It's very tough.
I don't know.
As a PI, what do you think?
Why it's different?
Why people think like that?
So I mean, you know, PIs have to be selfish, right?
They need us.
More than we need them.
Yeah.
It's almost parasitic, but it is.
We'll call it symbiotic.
Yeah.
Certainly during my PhD, I was the same as you, you know, time meant nothing.
Right.
So I would come in if I was worried about my fermenter, I would come in just before
bed at 10, 11 PM, just to make sure it was okay before I went to bed.
And I'd wake up in the night thinking about it, you know, and then I'd come in early just
to check up on my work and weekends, obviously, whatever.
Transitioning to postdoc.
So I had seen, I had seen friends of mine transition from PhD to postdoc where they
went from, you know, working seven to seven to working nine to five, Monday to Friday.
And I've pledged to do that.
So when I started my postdoc, I was working nine to five.
Yeah.
And, right, that was a big shift.
There was an adjustment for them to recognize that that's what you need.
I lost weight.
Yeah.
I was healthier at the gym.
I was running for the first time.
I quit smoking.
Yeah.
Everything in my life had improved.
And to an extent, peers as well, postdocs, there is an element of toxic work ethic where
it's almost you should be working as long as you possibly can.
Yeah.
You should be here on the weekends.
Actually, yeah, that's why I'm saying like when I'm doing postdoc, it's like if I'm going
on Saturday, it's my choice.
Okay.
And, and my experiment is according to that one.
For example, I need to come on Saturday to just harvest my sample and I'm okay with that
one.
But on Monday, if I'm coming late, please don't ask me why you are late because I can't
explain on Saturday or Sunday.
I have done those experiments.
Yeah.
So keep the freedom to postdoc.
They want to explore.
Absolutely.
It's not exactly like a PhD.
The thing is that if you're staying in the same lab where you have done a PhD, they still
believe you are a PhD.
And that's why I wanted to move back from India.
Like I don't want to do the postdoc in the same lab, but I want to go away some other
lab and feel like you are independent scientist.
You feel because most of the time, early career researchers, we think like when you're going
for abroad, you will plan everything according to because you feel, you should feel like
you are planning everything by your own.
You're bringing something new, but it's still just saying somebody is saying and guiding
you as a PhD scholar.
Like you have to do this experiment.
I give me that data.
What I'm saying according to that one, I'm not learning by right.
So I think that is also missing when people move from one place to another.
They feel not most of them, but pure have a hear that they mostly go through this thing
and they are not enjoying their post, PSD or postdoc.
That's why I guess.
For me, certainly now, if I am in on the weekend, like you said, it's my choice.
The only reason I would come in on a Sunday is to make my Monday easier.
But there is that element of if I come in late on a Monday because I've been working
on a Sunday, that my boss is going to be like, why are you coming in late on a Monday?
Yeah.
And they don't know about exactly your routines.
First thing they said, Prakash is doing his work.
Jack is doing according to his work.
Now he is independent.
Sometimes we are like, we're tired.
We don't want to come on Monday.
It's fine because we are going to go into a late.
You're going to come late.
You're going to be going to late because you have to work and complete your work.
Whatever you have.
Yeah, that's right.
So last question.
So I just want to ask if you want to give some suggestion for your new student coming
for PSD or science, give me some advice for them.
Advice for a new come at academia.
I think I'm cynical.
I think I think my advice would be don't do it.
I do.
I find myself wondering.
I'm five years in to real academia.
If you include my master's, you know, nearly six years.
I know.
If I had got a job with my undergraduate, I mean, it depends what you want.
If you want to be an academic, you have to do a PhD.
Yeah, that's fine.
If I'd got a job with my undergraduate, I'd be six years into it.
Yeah.
Maybe it would have been a bad job to start with, but maybe two or three promotions, you
know, once every two years pay rises and everything.
I'd probably be earning more than I am now.
Yeah.
And I'd be in a career because right now I'm going to leave academia.
Yeah.
And I'll be starting fresh.
Yeah.
So, so I mean, that's, you know, I've given that advice to, to, to master students when
they've asked about PhD.
I have told numerous people don't do a PhD and they've all done a PhD.
Yeah.
Right.
I was told not to do a PhD starting my PhD.
So I feel like you have to tell people not to do a PhD.
They will still do it.
Why?
Why I feel like this is option.
I'm telling you, if you have done the undergrad, people look for the postgrad and they look
for the PhD, then they look for postdoc and in the postdoc, they are playing postdoc all
the time until unless they are not getting permanent position.
So I think if you are going for undergrad, just say, I'm doing this one and look for
the career opportunities, not for like PhD or something.
Then again, you're doing master.
Then again, you're doing PhD.
You are lost in that.
That's why most of the time people coming to undergrad say, I'm doing this one.
After that, I have a job.
So one of the masters training in my lab, I asked him, he was doing a six month project
in my lab.
Ed.
And he said, like, I'm not going for science.
He was clear about his job.
And he said he's going to finance or something.
So if you're coming to science, I think you have to be a clear vision, not like exactly.
I don't know after PhD, I don't know, I will be doing a postdoc.
Then you are in something you don't know about.
If you're not feeling like a half loop in the science, so be ready.
There was a lot of crying in the lab, a lot of fight with your boss and all, and there
will be no security for you.
Okay.
Yes, absolutely.
You know, I think, I think the real advice is what you've been saying this whole time,
you know, do a PhD, don't do a PhD, figure out if you want to be in academia, you know,
you'll figure out along the way.
Ed will be doing well in business with his science background.
You know what I mean?
It gives you, but what you've said, work life balance is something that most PhDs I've seen
have lost.
No, no.
So that's the real advice.
That's not only for the PhD, even the PI, if he's the supervisor, they are also going
through this one.
I'm telling you.
PI, it's too late.
Yeah, that's right.
So I did say if we start something at this step, like doing PhD, if you're doing PhD,
just make sure you are balancing this thought, these things.
If you have too much mental health issues, just talk to experts.
I think that's a good advice will be.
Absolutely.
Or talk to your peers, like a friend or colleagues that can help you a lot, I think.
And we have talked, I think, doing our PhD, your PhD and my postdoc in a certain stage,
we were talking a lot of things about like differences of the climate, everything, rubbish,
anything.
I think that's also a matter a lot, making friends in the, you know, in your department
or around because you need to talk someone with someone.
It doesn't be like somebody's going to judge you, but it's rather than sharing your opinion
for the whole day, how it was something like that.
Okay, then you want to say anything extra then?
Otherwise, you're going to stop.
Nothing.
I'd like to say, you know, thanks to thanks to my family.
Thanks to thanks to my mom.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nothing, nothing more to add, Prakash.
I'm really this word, I really feel like accidentally you said this thing, but it's really important
to thank the people who has helped you in your life.
Of course.
I was writing my poster, making my poster today and I made a section acknowledgement.
So I acknowledge all the authors and the funding agency, but there's another column I have
written about me.
Literally, this is new about me, who I am, where I did my PhD.
And I thank all the people who helped me during the post-COVID time.
Oh, absolutely.
I literally did that.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I feel like this is not a data, but this is how you can sow the change in the academy.
You have to appreciate the people, whatever they're doing, what the help, what you got,
everything.
No one discover the failure.
For example, if you say, Jack, come here and talk about your failure, you will say,
why I'm talking about my failure?
For example, people are going to judge you on, oh, I haven't done anything, I haven't
got any publication and all those things.
Why?
First thing you said, I saw myself better place, better scientists now, because that's
important publication will be there, not today, but tomorrow.
But if you feel that when you have access in your field, like a being like a scientist,
feeling like a scientist, analyzing like a scientist, that's, I say achievement for myself
also because Ed left his job undergrad, then he went for job.
He may not use the scientific things, but he has a scientific attitude, how things are
going to work.
If not work, how are you going to solve it?
Well, yeah.
Research is not easy.
If it was easy, anyone would be doing it.
So, you know, he's, he's, it builds resilience and, and problem solving capabilities that
he will be using.
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
That was really nice talking to Jack.
Thank you so much.
All the best for your career job and all the opportunities.
I'll keep you up to date.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Well, that was Jack and it was really fun having conversation with him.
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