1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,040 Hello everyone, this is Prakash and welcome to the researcher's roundtable podcast. 2 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:17,120 And thank you so much for supporting our last two episodes with the researchers roundtable 3 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,920 guest, Johar Singh and Adil Khan. 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,440 In this episode, we have a guest Jack Bell. 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,640 Jack did his PhD from Durham University and recently he has been employed as a postdoctoral 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:31,640 research fellow. 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:37,560 People will be sharing his experience as a postdoc, as a PhD scholar and he's gonna share 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:42,280 with some of the expertise he has gone during his PhD. 9 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:50,560 Work life balance is something that most PhDs I've seen have not. 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:59,120 Okay then, you want to say anything extra, then you're gonna stop. 11 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,280 Alright let's go. 12 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,680 Alright welcome back to SoulJack. 13 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,800 So can you tell me about yourself? 14 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,160 Wow, that's an open ended question. 15 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:10,160 What do you want to know? 16 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,040 Just like what you do or? 17 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:13,760 Sure, professionally yeah. 18 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,480 So I'm a postdoc at Durham University in the Biosciences Department. 19 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:25,120 I work as a protein engineer so I produce recombinant protein. 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:33,420 We make bio insecticides so we use natural toxins derived from spider venom. 21 00:01:33,420 --> 00:01:42,360 We don't work with spiders, we make them in yeast and we through a bit of scientific magic 22 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,200 we fuse them to another protein which gives them insecticidal activity. 23 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,520 So we're making natural pesticides. 24 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:55,360 Okay, would you like to know what exactly your educational background is? 25 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,800 Why you chose a science like undergrad and PhD? 26 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:04,160 Sure, so I dropped out of secondary school at the age of 16. 27 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:10,720 I didn't like school, didn't like academia, so I did nothing for like a year or two. 28 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,400 I looked for apprenticeships, I don't know if you know what apprenticeships are. 29 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:21,600 So I only found ones where I was offered like half of minimum wage, like three pound an 30 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,520 hour to basically make coffee for an office. 31 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:31,000 After two years of looking for jobs like that and doing nothing really, I kind of found 32 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:36,800 a passion for science mostly through podcasts and watching YouTube videos and stuff like 33 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,760 that like documentaries. 34 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:46,660 So I decided to, again, that was mostly biology and chemistry, so I decided to do a foundation 35 00:02:46,660 --> 00:02:48,400 course. 36 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,480 That's where I have to kind of retake my A levels which I missed because I dropped out 37 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,560 of school. 38 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:02,560 The course led me to an undergraduate in biochemistry, which then led me to a master's in protein 39 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:03,560 engineering. 40 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:09,720 That was my main fascination with my undergraduate was the idea of making, I mean proteins are 41 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:10,720 cool right? 42 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:16,440 Proteins carry out every function in our body and the idea of kind of hacking that, like 43 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:23,000 biohacking and like making our own proteins is what really led me to want to pursue research, 44 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:24,520 PhD, protein engineering. 45 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:29,720 So this thought, when it came to your mind like two, three or four or five years ago, 46 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:30,720 what time exactly? 47 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,720 Because recently somebody got the Nobel Prize for the protein engineering. 48 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:41,040 Because before that must be your thinking, means it's really new things, you know, because 49 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,640 protein engineering is now the next step for the biotechnology or something. 50 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:45,640 Oh yeah. 51 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:46,640 Yeah. 52 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,600 So the Nobel Prize, you know who that went to? 53 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,320 I don't know the name, but I don't know what's the name, but do you know that? 54 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,320 I can't remember. 55 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:54,320 I should. 56 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:55,320 But the lady won that one. 57 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,520 Yeah, it was the woman in chemical engineering. 58 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,920 It was the Nobel Prize in chemistry, but it was in protein engineering. 59 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,000 So you say how long ago was that? 60 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:12,300 So, you know, this was the research lab that I was in for my masters, the only really competing 61 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:19,560 lab for exactly what they were doing, which was, it was guided evolution. 62 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,560 Okay. 63 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:21,560 Right. 64 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,160 So kind of like a high throughput protein design where you produce an array and then 65 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,080 you kind of subject them to a selection pressure. 66 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:30,080 Right. 67 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,080 Like evolution. 68 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,080 And you design a protein in that way. 69 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,640 The only other lab doing that at the time was a lab in California where the woman who 70 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,120 was carrying out that research won the Nobel Prize for protein engineering. 71 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,720 I can say you are the third one in that series that you still are working on. 72 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:46,720 It's a novel thing. 73 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,520 Few people in the world, they are working. 74 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,760 It's a literally new topic actually. 75 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:55,120 Nobody is exploring too much because I feel when I was doing a master, I was in the biochemistry 76 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,120 laboratory. 77 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,360 Mostly we were doing the enzyme activity, like a peroxidase activities and all those 78 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:01,360 things. 79 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,360 But not like the protein engineering. 80 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:08,160 It was really cool when I hear like people can make this kind of Nobel Prize when you 81 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,520 are working simply mutation and all those things in general into the new form. 82 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:12,520 It was really nice. 83 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:13,520 Yeah. 84 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:19,400 I mean, the reason I liked her Nobel Prize was it was less of a rational process that 85 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:20,400 she was carrying out. 86 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,320 So it wasn't so much, I know exactly how a protein is going to fold. 87 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:24,400 I can design a structure. 88 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,120 It was kind of copying the power of nature. 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,400 So like we've done in so many other ways with like antibiotics and stuff. 90 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:40,360 It was looking at the way that natural selection works and kind of... 91 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,960 You produce a lot of protein, then you look for which protein will be the most stable. 92 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,400 Like sometimes you produce like a 60, 70, 80, 100 sometimes. 93 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,920 And a few of those will be like you're expecting that this is structurally stable. 94 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,920 Let's go for the purification and then all those things. 95 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,560 Yeah, it's a long term, but it's still like it's challenging. 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,320 So with that one, I bring the new question. 97 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,520 What kind of challenges you faced when you started working in protein engineering, like 98 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,520 initial stage when you're doing in the PhD? 99 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:12,240 PhD, protein engineering, challenges I faced in protein engineering. 100 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:13,240 That's a good question. 101 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:14,240 That's a good question. 102 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,080 None of the challenges were really in the engineering element. 103 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:28,680 In engineering, we use an amount of rational design, so there's some element of understanding 104 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:36,320 the interactions, the electrochemical interactions between amino acids in a protein, but not 105 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:37,320 much. 106 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:38,320 A lot of it is... 107 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,320 It's a good question. 108 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,240 Most of the issues that I've faced during my PhD have been in protein production. 109 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,400 You go into most biochemistry labs in the country that are producing protein, and they're 110 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,520 not struggling with the design of the protein. 111 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,240 It's easy enough to design a protein. 112 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,460 They'll be trying to figure out why isn't it expressing? 113 00:06:59,460 --> 00:07:01,780 Why is my host not producing the protein? 114 00:07:01,780 --> 00:07:03,680 Why can't I purify the protein? 115 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,280 And then why is my pure protein being degraded? 116 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:08,200 Those are the kind of common... 117 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,240 So those are the problems I faced during my PhD. 118 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:18,160 I design a protein, and by all of my understanding, it should work, it should exist, it should 119 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:25,520 be fine, but then the yeast won't make it, and when they do, it's degraded. 120 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,080 So how many times you feel like... 121 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,720 When I was doing protein purification, most of the time it's like I was facing my protein 122 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,240 is not in the soluble fraction, it's going to the inclusion body, and sometimes even 123 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,800 you purifying, the quantity is not that much. 124 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:44,200 So during my PhD, first year was like that, struggling with purifying the protein from 125 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,200 bacteria. 126 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,720 It's quite one year which take me a lot of time to figure out what exactly I have to 127 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,720 do, but after that I figured it out, exactly these things I need to take care when I'm 128 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,160 doing these things. 129 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,160 Anything happened with you like that? 130 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,280 What time exactly you realized during the PhD or what phase? 131 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,280 You know. 132 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:04,280 Sure, sure. 133 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:10,360 So the toxins that we produce, they have no oral activity, so the design that we carry 134 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,120 out is to enhance oral activity of our protein. 135 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:20,880 So I carried out that design and it resulted in the yeast producing truncated protein that 136 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:30,600 I couldn't purify, that had no activity, and I was blessed that six months later a research 137 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:36,680 group working with Google DeepMind released AlphaFold. 138 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:42,320 And it was kind of a bit of luck that it came out at that time, and I started using it in 139 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:47,360 my design process, and it essentially solved the issues that I was facing. 140 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:53,620 So the design that we were carrying out was flawed, and this, I mean, do you know much 141 00:08:53,620 --> 00:08:54,620 about AlphaFold? 142 00:08:54,620 --> 00:08:56,400 I guess I should probably say what AlphaFold is. 143 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,840 I don't know, because recently again they published this paper in the Nietzsche or somewhere 144 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:06,520 where they have used the next version of the AlphaFold, where you can predict a lot of 145 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,000 things you can do, play with the metal ion and all those things. 146 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,520 I really don't know what those things, but you started learning by yourself or somebody 147 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:14,520 was helping. 148 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,680 It's a trouble because sometimes software learning is not my area. 149 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:18,680 Absolutely. 150 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:20,640 It's not my area at all either. 151 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,120 Programming coding is not for me. 152 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:30,040 The beauty of AlphaFold is that it was immediately made open source, so it was made publicly 153 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,920 available to the research community. 154 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:43,020 And it was literally as easy as copying and pasting your primary sequence and you're given 155 00:09:43,020 --> 00:09:49,240 a structural prediction, the likes of which I thought would be impossible in most of our 156 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:50,240 lifetimes, right? 157 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:55,280 But it was the main challenge of structural biology, was resolving structure from primary 158 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:56,280 sequence alone. 159 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,400 Yeah, without any going for crystallography or something like that. 160 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:01,400 Exactly. 161 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,280 Because that work would have been impossible with what I was doing, but the lab that I'm 162 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:10,520 in, we don't have the time or the money to crystallize all of our... 163 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,400 Yeah, hepatotope protein. 164 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:13,400 Exactly. 165 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,360 So being able to do it in silico obviously makes it accessible to tons of people and 166 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:18,880 it couldn't be easier. 167 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:25,520 It's an online interface, copy and paste your sequence and it provides enough output to 168 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,320 heavily modify the design of the proteins that we're working with. 169 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,320 Oh, great. 170 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:37,680 So, other question if you say, did you make any collaboration with any expert in the field? 171 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:39,400 Or you... 172 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,880 Did you think like... 173 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,400 You know, I always look for collaboration sometimes, like, oh, if I get the collaboration, 174 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:47,400 it will help you. 175 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:54,000 So, any collaboration in your work, help you or something like that? 176 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,000 No. 177 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Not really. 178 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,000 So you are working on your own. 179 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,800 It's been a solitary pursuit. 180 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:05,320 Yeah, there's very few people... 181 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:12,840 Not to make it sound too good, but being at the real forefront like that meant that there 182 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,080 was zero publications. 183 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,080 There was... 184 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,680 I was unaware of any other labs that were using it in the way that I wanted to use the 185 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:22,680 software. 186 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:30,280 And even if they were, they were so far removed from my field of designing these neurotoxic 187 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,280 peptides that... 188 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,480 Yeah, it was a solitary pursuit for the most part of my PhD. 189 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:38,480 Yeah. 190 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,480 Okay. 191 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:45,440 So overall, how you define your research career? 192 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,040 In the long term, like if I say, would you like to be in research or you want to move 193 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,120 in other career opportunities like? 194 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:53,840 So I'm actually... 195 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,680 Really what fascinated me, and this has become a... 196 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:01,640 It's something that I've been thinking about a lot recently, is what it means to do research 197 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,880 and what I want to do. 198 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:11,180 So I've heard from academics recently that they would be happy to spend their entire 199 00:12:11,180 --> 00:12:18,800 academic career researching a problem without ever solving that problem or producing something 200 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,960 that solves that problem. 201 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,060 Okay. 202 00:12:24,060 --> 00:12:28,320 So you have to justify why you're doing your research. 203 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:34,280 And so often you have to word it in such a way as, here's an issue that the world faces. 204 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,700 But it seems like a lot of academics don't really want to solve that issue that they 205 00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:39,120 claim that the world faces. 206 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:44,960 They just want to spend years tackling it from lots of different little angles, figuring 207 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,480 it out, but never really... 208 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:53,680 It's more like a basic science they want to do, but not like a applied concern. 209 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:56,360 Because most of the time what the people looking for the... 210 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,360 You know, a Catholic job is like, if you have a good CV, good publication, and most of the 211 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,120 time people are focusing on this aspect. 212 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:08,600 Rather than I will say, if you're engineering some proteins and that can solve some issues, 213 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,840 you know how much time you have to modify that protein and those kinds of things. 214 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,680 Suppose 10 PhD people are joining to the lab and they all fail, for example, because these 215 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,200 things are not so easy. 216 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,200 Right? 217 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,560 So most of the time I feel like in academy people are like, okay, let's do the simplest 218 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:28,120 experiment where we just prove that we could not solve the whole issue. 219 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,800 This is a big issue. 220 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:36,880 Sometimes people go for that one because as a postdoc, you don't have a time, for example, 221 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:44,040 where as a scientist, you can solve that because you're staying at that lab for a long time. 222 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,800 You can make those things, but as a postdoc, if I think about those things, I literally 223 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,880 can't make a big paper invention because I don't have that much time. 224 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:53,880 It's true. 225 00:13:53,880 --> 00:14:01,760 I think even if you did have enough time, the nature of research is that... 226 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:06,200 You know, I produced a toxin in my PhD that was successful. 227 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,600 It worked. 228 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:15,080 And in the design process, rationally, I included a small pro region before the peptide that 229 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,880 we thought was necessary to allow the protein to be... 230 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,520 Just allow it to fold properly within the yeast. 231 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:25,720 That's how I designed the protein. 232 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:26,800 That's how I made the protein. 233 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:27,800 The protein worked. 234 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:28,800 Right? 235 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,040 Now, in an industry, that would be enough. 236 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,240 You'd say, here's a product. 237 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,440 It could solve a problem. 238 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:34,440 We can sell. 239 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:35,440 We can sell this. 240 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:36,440 Right? 241 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,400 In research, three years down the line, I've written my thesis and I'm moving on. 242 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,280 And my supervisor is telling me that we can't possibly publish that work because she would 243 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,600 have to produce the same protein without that pro region. 244 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:51,600 Right? 245 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,840 Which, hypothetically, we think it wouldn't work. 246 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:55,840 Right? 247 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,800 So you'd spend six months making it, thousands of pounds in lab equipment, and even more 248 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,720 in taxpayer grant funding money, just to demonstrate the null hypothesis. 249 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,920 And obviously, the null hypothesis is an important element of the scientific method. 250 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:18,320 But it also stands in the way of efficient production of a product, in many ways. 251 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,800 And I think that's what I've realized I've fallen out of love with with research, is 252 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,680 that it's not enough to just make something that works. 253 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,880 You have to prove why everything else wouldn't work. 254 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:30,880 Yeah. 255 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,120 That's like people for like that's control, like negative control. 256 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,600 You have to always take. 257 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,760 And even when I was doing a PhD and suddenly my boss said, do you have a GP controlled 258 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:39,760 transgenic? 259 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,080 And I was like, no, why would I need that? 260 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,600 And later I realized that was needed. 261 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,600 And it would have, you know, if I could have dipped the flower, flower dip over there, 262 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,840 I've got a transgenics and I could have the problem solved. 263 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,040 But later I realized, I think negative, even the negative that doesn't do it a lot, but 264 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:07,600 it's it's required, like, OK, for the experiment, you need a negative control or something. 265 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:08,600 All right. 266 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:13,160 So if you say, how do you balance your work life balance? 267 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:19,560 So I've just, you know, I'm I'm seven months out, eight months out of my PhD. 268 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:24,120 PhD, I think for a lot of people is a period of your life where you kind of forget how 269 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,760 to do anything outside of your work. 270 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:33,520 So it's been eight months of trying to figure that out, you know, coming out the other end 271 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,680 of the PhD, figuring out how to start life back up again. 272 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,400 How do I balance my work life? 273 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:46,240 So exercise is probably the biggest part, you know, whether it's gym, running, you know, 274 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,240 sports, badminton. 275 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,240 Yeah, I play with you. 276 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:51,240 Yeah. 277 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:59,360 So cooking, going out, spending money on shopping. 278 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:06,360 Yeah, you know, I feel like if I'm too much stressed, so it's like my therapy is like 279 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:11,600 if you can make yourself happy in any means like going for shopping, the shopping is the 280 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:12,600 best thing. 281 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:13,600 You don't hurt anyone. 282 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:14,880 First thing, your happiness. 283 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,720 You just spend the money. 284 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:17,720 And there is two things. 285 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,200 One thing, you become happy. 286 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,800 People say you can't buy the happiness, but it's not true for myself. 287 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,720 Like if I buy something like this machine I brought for my happiness, it's doing that 288 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:27,720 one. 289 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,200 In the same time, I say like, if I brought this one in the thousand pound, I should use 290 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,200 that one. 291 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,960 So it makes you like again, you know, motivated for why you brought the first step. 292 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,920 So I think that's good, actually. 293 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:46,320 But most of the problem I have heard from my colleagues is that during the PhD, when 294 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,760 they start, they are very much highly motivated. 295 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,680 And once in the second year, for example, they will be very much into the science and 296 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,160 they are the things to start, you know, not working. 297 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:04,840 And they start this, you know, work and life balance in the final years or after that. 298 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:10,600 But the problem arises like, when you're having these troubles, you don't look into this one. 299 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,600 Like, should I talk to someone about my work? 300 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,240 Or they will feel like you are judging them or something. 301 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:23,160 So I feel like if you balance this one from the beginning of your PhD or any job that 302 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,480 is required like a life and work balance rather than I would say in the end. 303 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,760 So I learned this lesson when I was doing PhD. 304 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,560 Most of the time I was in the lab, like from morning to evening again after that, because 305 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,380 we're living in the hostel. 306 00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:40,240 So in the night after dinner, we will always go to the lab because you think like you will 307 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,200 be spent a lot of time in the lab, you will be more productive, for example. 308 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,200 Absolutely. 309 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,200 But that's not true. 310 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,200 I agree. 311 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,200 Yeah. 312 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,520 If I'm coming in the lab, like seven thirty and I'm going in like seven or eight and I'm 313 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,280 feeling I have a lot of time. 314 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:59,000 So my work speed will be very slow because I know that I have a lot of time. 315 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:00,000 So I will. 316 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,800 Okay, I will do it very slowly. 317 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:02,800 Yes. 318 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,040 And somehow if you are spending the whole week in the lab, you feel like a drain, you 319 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,040 burn out. 320 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,600 You don't want to again start on for the next week. 321 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:16,800 So I started doing that workout for myself when I was in third year of my PhD, second 322 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,200 year of my PhD. 323 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,680 My boss was not happy for the first time. 324 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,800 He said like, Prakash, you're spending going away at a four thirty or five thirty and it's 325 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,800 not good. 326 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:26,800 Right. 327 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:32,680 But my consistency, he saw like I'm going proper timing and he realized I'm more productive 328 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,080 at that time. 329 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,520 So later after a few months, he stated that look at it, look at it, Prakash. 330 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,000 He has very nice work and life balance. 331 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,560 I was not that much because I was going through a lot of pressure in the lab. 332 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,360 Then workout was one of the therapy for myself. 333 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,680 So yeah, I think most of the time either your peers or your supervisor will say you are 334 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:52,680 wasting your time. 335 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:53,680 Yes. 336 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,720 But in the end, actually, I feel like you should feel like it's important for you rather 337 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,520 than somebody is telling is good for you or not. 338 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:01,520 Yeah. 339 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,520 So I think that's most of the people do the workout and this badminton and all this play. 340 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,760 I mean, you make a good point about about where you have to know what the Ph.D. means 341 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:12,760 to you. 342 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:13,760 Yeah. 343 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:14,760 What what you're actually trying to get out of it. 344 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,360 If you're if you're spending that much time on something, then you know, you should be 345 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,520 able to put into clear words what the end goal is. 346 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:28,840 And for me, the end goal of the Ph.D. was always to learn to improve myself as a scientist 347 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,800 and a researcher and learn to work hard. 348 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:32,800 It was a it was a challenge. 349 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,520 It was to overcome the challenge of the Ph.D. as well. 350 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,880 And in some regards, just to have the Ph.D., just to just to have the certificate to be 351 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,880 a doctor for whatever benefit that brings you with your career perspective. 352 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:45,880 Right. 353 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:46,880 Yeah. 354 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,240 If those are the three things that you want, then then when I'm looking back at my Ph.D. 355 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,760 and I think of all the weekends that I spent here in the lab in the lab, was the fruitful 356 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,080 or like, well, exactly. 357 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,160 Did the weekends really contribute to any of those three things that I wanted? 358 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,100 No, I don't think so. 359 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:02,440 In some cases, maybe exceptional. 360 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,440 Like people get happy with working because they love the lab. 361 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:12,800 But at the end, whatever people are saying, like, I love my job, but your work life balance 362 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,800 is so important. 363 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,400 Your mental health is so important. 364 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,560 You should consider that one. 365 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,120 If somebody is saying most of people don't say, but suppose I'm saying, Jack, you are 366 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:22,120 working too hard. 367 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:23,120 I can see that. 368 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:24,920 Why I'm saying this so many times. 369 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:25,920 I've talked to you about those things. 370 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:26,920 Like, why are you working on Saturday? 371 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:27,920 I used to see you. 372 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,520 I used to see you know, no, because I'm not coming for like a whole day. 373 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,400 It's like, but it's like, yeah, keeping these things. 374 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,820 If you are aware of this, I call it self aware where you should know that what is good for 375 00:21:40,820 --> 00:21:43,680 yourself and also be biased to yourself. 376 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,920 Like you need rest. 377 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:46,920 You need to rest sometime. 378 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,520 And I feel like whenever you're talking to some people, I usually say the late late in 379 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,720 the weekend or something, I always say, is it a long day or something? 380 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,320 So when you say these things, they realize, okay, I said, cool, I guess. 381 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,080 And a lot of people, when I was doing PhD, they used to look at me like, oh, Prakash 382 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,080 is still in the lab. 383 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,800 And they used to say like, go away from lab for some time, go away from your field of 384 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,160 research and talk to the non-specific people. 385 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,560 And that's where I started going to gym where the people are like an undergrad or different 386 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:16,560 profession. 387 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:17,920 You're not thinking about the science. 388 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:18,920 So that was therapy. 389 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,440 Like you learn something from, you know, away from your profession. 390 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,480 So that was one of the therapy and no one is going to judge over me like, oh, Prakash 391 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,320 is doing science again and he's doing this and that. 392 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,000 But that was like going away from your work. 393 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,800 And suddenly next day I am coming back to lab was like a new, fresh start for me rather 394 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,680 than I'm just going from the lab at nine and going to sleep in the morning, opening eyes 395 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,800 and coming back to the lab. 396 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,240 It's like too much challenge for me. 397 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,800 It's not good for your mental health and what, what use are you if you come into the lab 398 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,600 and you can't do your work because of your poor mental health? 399 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,600 Yeah. 400 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:58,680 So it's, I think working efficient efficiently is as important as working for a long time. 401 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,760 You know, it's quality, not quantity. 402 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:01,760 I think. 403 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:02,760 Yeah. 404 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:03,760 Yeah, for sure. 405 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:04,760 I believe that one. 406 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,800 And this is my routine nowadays. 407 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:12,080 Like, so I did my PhD like that in the morning to evening that you are still in the lab. 408 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,080 Yes. 409 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,720 But when it came to UK, I feel like, no, I need my, this balance work-life balance. 410 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,440 So most of the time I talk to my supervisor, what exactly you want, because my life is 411 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,040 so much different because other people are staying with their partners and all those, 412 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,960 but I'm staying alone and sometimes I need to talk to my partner and back to India. 413 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,560 And this is like a different time point. 414 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,280 So one day I said, like, I can't come early in the morning because I need to focus on 415 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,960 both things, my personal life and work. 416 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,800 I clearly said this one. 417 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,460 Then he replied, okay, so you go according to your timings. 418 00:23:45,460 --> 00:23:46,460 You come at nine or 10. 419 00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:47,640 I don't care. 420 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,600 Just go through that one. 421 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,040 And somehow at the end he needs what he is expecting from you. 422 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,040 Right? 423 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,160 So I made myself like, okay, in the morning I will talk at that time. 424 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,440 That's like my starting of the day. 425 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,720 I can't avoid that because that is important. 426 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,720 Then come back to lab and I just focus myself. 427 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,960 Like I have a four or three or whatever time I do have, I just go for like a correct work, 428 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,320 work these things complete today and leave for the workout again, because it's again 429 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,160 like personal life, professional life back to therapy. 430 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,160 This is my routine. 431 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,760 So I felt that way. 432 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,760 Like, if you can manage these things for me, it's my personal view. 433 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:30,720 I'm happy with that because I'm also taking my personal life not completely avoided, professional 434 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,880 company not gone like, oh, I don't have a good relationship with my boss because he 435 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,480 said, you come late and you're going early. 436 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,480 It's very tough. 437 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,480 I don't know. 438 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:40,480 As a PI, what do you think? 439 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:41,480 Why it's different? 440 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,480 Why people think like that? 441 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,800 So I mean, you know, PIs have to be selfish, right? 442 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,760 They need us. 443 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,080 More than we need them. 444 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,080 Yeah. 445 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,880 It's almost parasitic, but it is. 446 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:54,880 We'll call it symbiotic. 447 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,880 Yeah. 448 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,920 Certainly during my PhD, I was the same as you, you know, time meant nothing. 449 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:00,920 Right. 450 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,480 So I would come in if I was worried about my fermenter, I would come in just before 451 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,760 bed at 10, 11 PM, just to make sure it was okay before I went to bed. 452 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,360 And I'd wake up in the night thinking about it, you know, and then I'd come in early just 453 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:16,560 to check up on my work and weekends, obviously, whatever. 454 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,520 Transitioning to postdoc. 455 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,600 So I had seen, I had seen friends of mine transition from PhD to postdoc where they 456 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:30,320 went from, you know, working seven to seven to working nine to five, Monday to Friday. 457 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,560 And I've pledged to do that. 458 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,720 So when I started my postdoc, I was working nine to five. 459 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,720 Yeah. 460 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,000 And, right, that was a big shift. 461 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,320 There was an adjustment for them to recognize that that's what you need. 462 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,800 I lost weight. 463 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:49,800 Yeah. 464 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:50,800 I was healthier at the gym. 465 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,120 I was running for the first time. 466 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:53,120 I quit smoking. 467 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:54,120 Yeah. 468 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:57,520 Everything in my life had improved. 469 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:05,880 And to an extent, peers as well, postdocs, there is an element of toxic work ethic where 470 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,920 it's almost you should be working as long as you possibly can. 471 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:10,920 Yeah. 472 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:11,920 You should be here on the weekends. 473 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,560 Actually, yeah, that's why I'm saying like when I'm doing postdoc, it's like if I'm going 474 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,720 on Saturday, it's my choice. 475 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:18,720 Okay. 476 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,360 And, and my experiment is according to that one. 477 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:26,680 For example, I need to come on Saturday to just harvest my sample and I'm okay with that 478 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:27,680 one. 479 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,720 But on Monday, if I'm coming late, please don't ask me why you are late because I can't 480 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:33,720 explain on Saturday or Sunday. 481 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,200 I have done those experiments. 482 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,200 Yeah. 483 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,280 So keep the freedom to postdoc. 484 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,280 They want to explore. 485 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,280 Absolutely. 486 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,480 It's not exactly like a PhD. 487 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,160 The thing is that if you're staying in the same lab where you have done a PhD, they still 488 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,720 believe you are a PhD. 489 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,240 And that's why I wanted to move back from India. 490 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,560 Like I don't want to do the postdoc in the same lab, but I want to go away some other 491 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,360 lab and feel like you are independent scientist. 492 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:05,600 You feel because most of the time, early career researchers, we think like when you're going 493 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,600 for abroad, you will plan everything according to because you feel, you should feel like 494 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,600 you are planning everything by your own. 495 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,760 You're bringing something new, but it's still just saying somebody is saying and guiding 496 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,240 you as a PhD scholar. 497 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,240 Like you have to do this experiment. 498 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,800 I give me that data. 499 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,620 What I'm saying according to that one, I'm not learning by right. 500 00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:28,360 So I think that is also missing when people move from one place to another. 501 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,840 They feel not most of them, but pure have a hear that they mostly go through this thing 502 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,400 and they are not enjoying their post, PSD or postdoc. 503 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,400 That's why I guess. 504 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,720 For me, certainly now, if I am in on the weekend, like you said, it's my choice. 505 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,800 The only reason I would come in on a Sunday is to make my Monday easier. 506 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,600 But there is that element of if I come in late on a Monday because I've been working 507 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,360 on a Sunday, that my boss is going to be like, why are you coming in late on a Monday? 508 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:55,360 Yeah. 509 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:57,480 And they don't know about exactly your routines. 510 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,040 First thing they said, Prakash is doing his work. 511 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,400 Jack is doing according to his work. 512 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,280 Now he is independent. 513 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:04,280 Sometimes we are like, we're tired. 514 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,880 We don't want to come on Monday. 515 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,680 It's fine because we are going to go into a late. 516 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,680 You're going to come late. 517 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,920 You're going to be going to late because you have to work and complete your work. 518 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:13,920 Whatever you have. 519 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,960 Yeah, that's right. 520 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,960 So last question. 521 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:26,920 So I just want to ask if you want to give some suggestion for your new student coming 522 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:33,880 for PSD or science, give me some advice for them. 523 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:40,680 Advice for a new come at academia. 524 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,160 I think I'm cynical. 525 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,840 I think I think my advice would be don't do it. 526 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:47,840 I do. 527 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:48,920 I find myself wondering. 528 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,080 I'm five years in to real academia. 529 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,880 If you include my master's, you know, nearly six years. 530 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,880 I know. 531 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:04,840 If I had got a job with my undergraduate, I mean, it depends what you want. 532 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,920 If you want to be an academic, you have to do a PhD. 533 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:07,920 Yeah, that's fine. 534 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,760 If I'd got a job with my undergraduate, I'd be six years into it. 535 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,760 Yeah. 536 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,800 Maybe it would have been a bad job to start with, but maybe two or three promotions, you 537 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,160 know, once every two years pay rises and everything. 538 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,240 I'd probably be earning more than I am now. 539 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,240 Yeah. 540 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,880 And I'd be in a career because right now I'm going to leave academia. 541 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:24,880 Yeah. 542 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:25,880 And I'll be starting fresh. 543 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,880 Yeah. 544 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:32,320 So, so I mean, that's, you know, I've given that advice to, to, to master students when 545 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:33,560 they've asked about PhD. 546 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:39,000 I have told numerous people don't do a PhD and they've all done a PhD. 547 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,000 Yeah. 548 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,000 Right. 549 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,920 I was told not to do a PhD starting my PhD. 550 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,160 So I feel like you have to tell people not to do a PhD. 551 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,160 They will still do it. 552 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,160 Why? 553 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,000 Why I feel like this is option. 554 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,800 I'm telling you, if you have done the undergrad, people look for the postgrad and they look 555 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,200 for the PhD, then they look for postdoc and in the postdoc, they are playing postdoc all 556 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,560 the time until unless they are not getting permanent position. 557 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,960 So I think if you are going for undergrad, just say, I'm doing this one and look for 558 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,160 the career opportunities, not for like PhD or something. 559 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,160 Then again, you're doing master. 560 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,160 Then again, you're doing PhD. 561 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,160 You are lost in that. 562 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,520 That's why most of the time people coming to undergrad say, I'm doing this one. 563 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:20,980 After that, I have a job. 564 00:30:20,980 --> 00:30:26,840 So one of the masters training in my lab, I asked him, he was doing a six month project 565 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:27,840 in my lab. 566 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:28,840 Ed. 567 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,840 Ed. 568 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,520 And he said, like, I'm not going for science. 569 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,920 He was clear about his job. 570 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,920 And he said he's going to finance or something. 571 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,720 So if you're coming to science, I think you have to be a clear vision, not like exactly. 572 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,720 I don't know after PhD, I don't know, I will be doing a postdoc. 573 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,960 Then you are in something you don't know about. 574 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,360 If you're not feeling like a half loop in the science, so be ready. 575 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:57,720 There was a lot of crying in the lab, a lot of fight with your boss and all, and there 576 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,920 will be no security for you. 577 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:00,920 Okay. 578 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:01,920 Yes, absolutely. 579 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,120 You know, I think, I think the real advice is what you've been saying this whole time, 580 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,240 you know, do a PhD, don't do a PhD, figure out if you want to be in academia, you know, 581 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,760 you'll figure out along the way. 582 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,080 Ed will be doing well in business with his science background. 583 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,080 You know what I mean? 584 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:22,840 It gives you, but what you've said, work life balance is something that most PhDs I've seen 585 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:23,840 have lost. 586 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:24,840 No, no. 587 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:25,840 So that's the real advice. 588 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,240 That's not only for the PhD, even the PI, if he's the supervisor, they are also going 589 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,240 through this one. 590 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,240 I'm telling you. 591 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,240 PI, it's too late. 592 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,240 Yeah, that's right. 593 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:41,560 So I did say if we start something at this step, like doing PhD, if you're doing PhD, 594 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,200 just make sure you are balancing this thought, these things. 595 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,520 If you have too much mental health issues, just talk to experts. 596 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,520 I think that's a good advice will be. 597 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:50,520 Absolutely. 598 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,680 Or talk to your peers, like a friend or colleagues that can help you a lot, I think. 599 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,320 And we have talked, I think, doing our PhD, your PhD and my postdoc in a certain stage, 600 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:03,360 we were talking a lot of things about like differences of the climate, everything, rubbish, 601 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:04,360 anything. 602 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,680 I think that's also a matter a lot, making friends in the, you know, in your department 603 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,200 or around because you need to talk someone with someone. 604 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,040 It doesn't be like somebody's going to judge you, but it's rather than sharing your opinion 605 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,120 for the whole day, how it was something like that. 606 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,680 Okay, then you want to say anything extra then? 607 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,560 Otherwise, you're going to stop. 608 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:27,560 Nothing. 609 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,440 I'd like to say, you know, thanks to thanks to my family. 610 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,400 Thanks to thanks to my mom. 611 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 612 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,360 Nothing, nothing more to add, Prakash. 613 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:44,920 I'm really this word, I really feel like accidentally you said this thing, but it's really important 614 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,600 to thank the people who has helped you in your life. 615 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,600 Of course. 616 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,520 I was writing my poster, making my poster today and I made a section acknowledgement. 617 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,600 So I acknowledge all the authors and the funding agency, but there's another column I have 618 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:58,600 written about me. 619 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:04,640 Literally, this is new about me, who I am, where I did my PhD. 620 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,920 And I thank all the people who helped me during the post-COVID time. 621 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,920 Oh, absolutely. 622 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,920 I literally did that. 623 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:10,920 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 624 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:17,760 And I feel like this is not a data, but this is how you can sow the change in the academy. 625 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,880 You have to appreciate the people, whatever they're doing, what the help, what you got, 626 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:22,880 everything. 627 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:23,880 No one discover the failure. 628 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,200 For example, if you say, Jack, come here and talk about your failure, you will say, 629 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,480 why I'm talking about my failure? 630 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,880 For example, people are going to judge you on, oh, I haven't done anything, I haven't 631 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,760 got any publication and all those things. 632 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:34,760 Why? 633 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,320 First thing you said, I saw myself better place, better scientists now, because that's 634 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,960 important publication will be there, not today, but tomorrow. 635 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:49,280 But if you feel that when you have access in your field, like a being like a scientist, 636 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,600 feeling like a scientist, analyzing like a scientist, that's, I say achievement for myself 637 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,140 also because Ed left his job undergrad, then he went for job. 638 00:34:00,140 --> 00:34:05,280 He may not use the scientific things, but he has a scientific attitude, how things are 639 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,280 going to work. 640 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,240 If not work, how are you going to solve it? 641 00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:09,240 Well, yeah. 642 00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:10,240 Research is not easy. 643 00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:12,000 If it was easy, anyone would be doing it. 644 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,840 So, you know, he's, he's, it builds resilience and, and problem solving capabilities that 645 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:17,840 he will be using. 646 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:18,840 Yeah. 647 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:19,840 Oh, absolutely. 648 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:20,840 Yeah. 649 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,840 Yeah. 650 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:22,840 Okay. 651 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:23,840 That was really nice talking to Jack. 652 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:24,840 Thank you so much. 653 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,840 All the best for your career job and all the opportunities. 654 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,840 I'll keep you up to date. 655 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:31,840 Yeah. 656 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,840 Thank you. 657 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:33,840 Thank you so much. 658 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:34,840 Yeah. 659 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,960 Well, that was Jack and it was really fun having conversation with him. 660 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,840 So there is a new update now in our podcast. 661 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:49,960 So you can find our podcast, not only an Apple podcast or Spotify, but also in YouTube. 662 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,600 So if you like our podcast, please share and follow. 663 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,640 You can also drop your review and comments and suggestion for our podcast. 664 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:58,640 Thank you. 665 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:26,640 Bye.