Hi, this is Prakash and welcome back to our podcast, the researchers roundtable.
I am thrilled to introduce our guest for this episode, Dr. Adil Khan from University of
Western Australia.
....Came into my mind that, I should go for the science.
Okay, that's a very good question.
This episode promises to be both, informative and inspiring.
I personally believe like I mean everything happens for a reason.
Hi Adil.
Hi Prakash, how are you?
I'm good, how are you doing?
I'm very good, thank you.
Adil, tell me about yourself.
As my name is Adil, I'm originally from Pakistan and back in 2012 I moved to Australia for
my masters in biotechnology and then I joined University of Western Australia for my PhD
in synthetic biology and after completing my PhD since then I'm doing my post-doc in
the same field.
Okay, so it looks like you started your science career beginning of the masters.
So any idea how this inspiration came into mind like I should go for the science?
Okay, that's a very good question.
So during undergrad, whenever I used to study about my courses or some of the professors,
they used to tell us about like I mean how the research environment is outside Pakistan.
So at that time like I mean I got inspired and I thought I should give it a go but in
the beginning it was not as easy as I thought it would be but I started my journey and then
they say whenever you try so you can get to your goals, you can achieve your goals.
So you did your master in Pakistan?
No, I did my masters in Australia.
Australia?
Yep.
And what is the journey between like a master to PhD then?
So during when I was doing my masters at the time, the project was more focused on the
cloning side and then at the time back in 2014 there was a little bit boom of synthetic
biology so that got me inspired and one of the professors, my boss currently, Professor
Anil Lester, I was in communication with him, he suggested this could be like an area of
interest in the future so maybe we should go into this direction which I accepted at
the time, I had no idea like I mean how easy the journey would be but if I take a look
into that time, so I'm quite happy now that was the right decision.
Yeah that's really good.
So during your PhD you did synthetic biology and now you're doing a postdoc, you're doing
the same thing or different?
Well I mean the thing is during my PhD I developed the synthetic circuits which are similar to
the electronic circuits but are based on the DNA that we use for programmable control of
gene expression.
So during my postdoc what I'm doing now, we are applying the same technology to program
plants for space.
Okay, if I ask for details can you explain that?
Yeah sure, yeah so the way it works like let's say in the electronic circuits when you have
the input and then there is no like I mean when there is input so we call it as one then
the output is zero so that is like a not gate similar in the biological system so when you
have a promoter that drives the expression of a gene so the gene is switched on all the
time so it is similar like the not gate so when there is an input in the form of an expression
which occupies this promoter and then the gene is switched off so when you have input
one the output is zero so that is the same concept that we are using to engineer plants
for like customizable fares and behaviors.
Great, so Adil do you have any story like back when you were doing this work that leads
to some discovery which you are really proud of?
Yes there is, in the beginning as I mentioned I had no idea of the research area because
my background was that I had done some cloning it was a bit different so when I started there
was not much known in plants about these synthetic circuits or gene repression not many people
has done work in this area and at that time when I started my PhD this was also quite
a new area in the lab so I had to establish everything from scratch so honestly it took
me like three years so for three years continuously including most of the weekends I was working
to optimize the systems because we had like two variables there one was whether we could
understand whether the system is working and then we also needed to have like a robust
assay because you know like I mean plants when you are working with plants even the
simple model alkenism and adiabatopsis it takes like six to eight months to get like
the transgenic lines so imagine if you start working with it and after eight months you
get to know okay now I need to go back and change this thing so that takes ages so we
needed like a robust system which is like quite high throughput so you can get your
results like let's say within a day so that's why I started working on the adiabatopsis
protoplast system as an assay for screening synthetic gene circuits and as you know that
the protoplast sometimes the data is like quite variable is not reproducible but we
did not want that and that was our only option so when I started working on this the problem
I was facing exactly the same that our data was not reproducible and I spent like almost
three years and that was we were thinking maybe we can change the directions of the
project because I was a PhD student it spent like three years just on the optimization
and at the end of the day I had to graduate anyway so that was one day and it was weekend
I got to the lab in the morning I started doing I thought okay I can go like with the
plant-based method so I spent the whole day to isolate the protoplast and transfect them
and then when I came to the very last point when I had transfected the protoplast so I
needed to centrifuge it there was a time when I came to know that there was some problem
with the centrifuge so I couldn't proceed so I thought I can just get rid of the plant
but I was so hungry that I went to eat something and that was the time like I mean the magic
happened when I came back the cells they were like sitting down at the bottom due to gravity
and I thought okay I don't need any centrifugation so what I could do is get rid of the supernatant
solution and that should work the next day when I checked the results they were like
quite beautiful and I thought maybe and also my boss he couldn't believe because we were
trying for like the past three years that maybe it is just a coincidence and then I
repeated it like over ten times from like I mean randomizing the samples taking different
batches of plants doing it on different days trying different DNA molecules to see whether
these are reproducible and yeah it worked so I'm coming to the same point that the
thing is that if you have some dreams if you want to pursue them and if you try your best
so you can achieve your goals.
Yeah that's right because if I was there I should not compare with you but it is really
frustrating when things are not working when you are following each steps as it is written
or you assume it's had work but suddenly that accident that you said I just wanted to leave
that sample go back and eat something and came back and you saw that plus a working
that's like you know motivation for even you spend a lot of time in the lab it's like you
got that gift like you got your experiment is working like that.
Exactly like I mean the thing is it is all about those little celebrations right you are
in the lab nobody is around you you got your desired results and then you say yeah it started
working so like I mean that feeling.
So what was your reaction when you got this data?
Well I can't explain that in words like in fact I cried at this time because I had spent
like three years on it and there was like before getting into this field I had actually
started my PhD because I had applied into different universities so the first one was
I had done my masters there and then I because I was an internist student I came to know
about my scholarship I started and the place where I am now I had applied there and because
the outcome of the scholarship was after a couple of months so my first place where I
had started my PhD there like the those were ongoing projects and I thought my thesis would
be by publication and everything would be like quite super easy but here like everything
was challenging so in all those three years sometimes I used to think whether I made the
right choice whether I quit my first PhD and came here so at that time I was frustrated
no doubt but when things were optimised if I take a look back I said yeah that was the
right choice but like I mean all this struggle and everything so like I mean if somebody
asks me I say like I mean never give up just try your best so your time will come.
So here comes our tips and trick.
I don't think our research is like as easy as we think when you're joining PhD or postdoc
you have a project but as you plan it never goes that way so in that sense also like how
you manage if you get setbacks like you said like you are trying that experiment for multiple
years or something so what kind of a strategy now you think you should have taken at that
time so you know manage those things.
I think because if you are going to try something new and something normal so of course that
will take time but I think if let's say I have the best thing would be if you have a
student so I think one of the projects should be like quite ambitious and then there should
be like a side project which could be like I mean easily achievable so I think that would
be the best strategy because if they are getting some results from it they will be like motivated
they have like something on the side and the ambitious project they could just focus on
it but I mean there could be like some of the people that I have seen when they are
working like this so sometimes their side project become their main priority because
they give up on that ambitious project and they say okay maybe it is not working but
what if they are just nearly there and they are able to achieve this goal.
Yeah I see here like if you just think that on that day you just discarded that protoplast
in the bin not kept on the bench and you just stopped that work over there the work you
got from that you know research was like going in the wind but on that day you didn't you
know stop thinking about your experiment and you got that data I think that is where you
said like who knows that you are just a few step away from your goal.
Yeah exactly.
So keep each steps forward don't stop it don't go back just instead move slowly doesn't
matter how you are doing but you achieve that one in the end so that you say I have invested
five years four years doesn't matter what is you got is the end product and the other
thing you said like habit B you know plan B your backup something when you are working
on something new in the field make a side project which will be like a backup for your
research you never know that side project become a main project and it is going to give
you something else but in the same time so what happens as a postdoc when you are working
in any lab either you are supervisor or you will do multiple projects so if you are jumping
from one project to another the side effect is that you cannot focus any one of those.
Yeah I agree.
So it happened with you or just you focus only like a priority like these two projects
are my priorities and I won't be focusing on because sometimes as a postdoc we cannot
say no it happened like you have a responsibility to take this you know forward and all how
do you do that once.
Well I mean the thing is that because like quite challenging so being a postdoc like
I mean you are not only working on your own project you are also involved like in the
PhD students supervision so their problems are your problems and then you have your own
problems it becomes like quite challenging so I think what I do in their thing so then
I divide my time in a way so like I mean things which needs most like I mean are the high
priority in terms of like I mean needs to be addressed like quite quickly so spend more
time on them not leaving behind the other projects but it becomes like I mean you have
to spend more than nine to five time which never happens in the research on the paper
it is nine to five but the reality is you have to spend more time so I have seen like
I mean staying until very late.
Yeah so you say like time management now because research is not about like nine to five or
Monday to Friday sometime you have to go and we can also.
So how do you manage this your work life balance because this is very crucial.
That's a very tough question and I may not have the best answer for it because work life
balance is very important we all understand it but we are very bad at it.
Yeah to be honest yeah so I mean the thing is one of the things that I have done I don't
live very far from the lab so it's just like a walking distance like for five minutes walking
distance so yeah that's how like I mean it helps me the traveling time getting into the
lab and then yeah so somehow like I mean I could manage their time for myself so yeah
that's what's good.
So for example sometimes when I have like an experiment going on and there is like an
incubation time that I have to wait for like one hour or two hours so I can take their
time out and then come back see where points can do like some other related things in those
ones.
Yeah I feel like if you plan your work accordingly like sometime you're incubating sometime what
happens is that it's a lunchtime is like a 12 o'clock to 1 you don't need have to go
at that time so at that time maybe you're keeping 20 minutes for like experiment the
incubation you're keeping here so you manage that way so that you know working but sometimes
spending too much time do you think like from nine to seven or nine like a 12 hours in the
lab reduces your efficiency work with the time rather than I would say five to nine
to five you are more efficient or vice versa what do you think?
I truly agree like I mean the thing is if you are working like several days six days
a week that is not good like I mean you are pushing yourself behind yeah so beyond the
beyond your body limits and I think even if you spend like five days working in those
normal working days maybe let's say instead of staying in the lab instead of until five
you can stay there until seven which is for five days I think the year will be more efficient
if you take like some time off for yourself that is very important we don't realize it
until we get to that point like when you are super exhausted so because at the end of the
day your net efficiency matters working for extended hours where a extended period of
time is not good for your health automatically yeah yeah yeah yeah for the long term it may
be negative fact because I mean the thing is you are using your mind continuously so
if you are exhausted your sleep is not complete so how can you come up with like solutions
how you can come up with like the new ideas so if you are not in the lab what do you like
to do how do you you know spend your weekends I because I mean I can't like when I come
to the same point so we I have like some I'm quite social so at least I have hello hi with
everyone and we have we are a group of like 14 15 people we get together okay then we
do some barbecue cook together well spend our time there I said that time that's like
I mean gives me strength because we are not talking about science I anything but I mean
the thing is all that's time that we spend on cooking or preparing the food that is there
but at the end of the day we are researchers and then we sit together to start eating yeah
so some of one way or the other way we start these discussions but again I mean that is
in a very lighter mood so that's how like I mean I spend my personal time with the friends
or with the family yeah yeah that's very important because sometimes if you don't have science
to do you need something to do with some people spend their time just walking around or just
visiting places so do you think like if you're coming to science and you're coming to different
country and different culture like I came to UK it was not like being in India yeah
because India is more like family or in different oriented culture when you come here like it's
like more isolated socially isolated you don't feel sometimes you belong here so what kind
of advice you want to give like people if they are coming to another country how this
this would exist because everybody's different somebody was extrovert into what but it's
like as a human we live in a society right yeah you can't live alone and you have to
feel like you belong in that society yeah that environment yeah I mean the thing is
no doubt it is hard when you leave your family behind your culture and of course our culture
is completely different to here because here people are more like adopted to being alone
are independent where we have the family there so let's say if I'm away from home somebody
will be at home taking care of something which is not the case here I would advise because
I would advise to like I mean anyone coming from coming to these countries and so they
can be I mean try to be independent point one like I mean try to do everything yourself
and then the other thing is try to talk to people and try to interact with them sit with
them because otherwise it becomes hard so those would be the things like I mean try
to be independent in doing your own things and then also don't hesitate to talk to anyone
in case whether you are having problem with something because people are friendly they
help yeah most of the time people think like if I talk to someone maybe they were not interested
because everyone when you're walking in street even in the department they are like silent
you just feel like if I talk to them maybe they are not interested but it's the fear
that if I start it doesn't go that way then it becomes like no I will be besamed of something
and once you start talking like our conversation also I feel like when we started it was just
like a hi and hello yeah and resting started the stories exactly so you have to start a
story listen tell and conversation goes like a never ending it's like I know that guy from
like a 10 years yeah so I think communication is one of that exactly like I mean the thing
is we met like one and a half hour ago yeah we were having lunch and suddenly like okay
Adil can you come to my podcast and I was like because you had a story which I felt
like I'm hearing that one but if what happened if somebody is hearing this story and they
are going through a lot sometimes we go through a lot because one of my friend when I was
talking to him he said like he did a PSD he's applying for a postdoc and he said like I'm
not getting any job it's very frustrating getting a job means a postdoc it's very tough
nowadays yes I'm very competitive and other thing that you start questioning yourself
yeah like am I worth it that I'm applying 10 20 postdoc and none of them are like a
more successful so sometimes we question the PSD position like no I think I'm not going
for science so do you have any suggestion for those people like well when you apply
for something and then you don't get that position it doesn't mean that you are not
capable right yeah and I personally believe like I mean everything happens for a reason
so like I mean trying again and again like never giving up maybe because something better
is destined for you I personally believe like this way so if you apply for a position you
don't get it doesn't mean like I mean you have the problem yeah maybe something good
is in the future yeah it's waiting for you and it's coming for you yeah I really inspired
by this thing and that's make me keep moving because so many times it happened like I went
apply for a Europe's Engineering and all and there was a conference I couldn't go so one
thing is like my lab mates are there they're enjoying I should sit and just cry oh why
I'm not there but on that week I realized I should focus that energy into some research
I went back to lab and started working something and that time I found some I was talking to
the photo bodies and all that data was came from that week where I couldn't go to France
for the conference so I feel like like you say something you have to modulate your energy
somewhere in a positive way that you say like if it is not for you then that is not for
you it's something good is for you somewhere for you so that keeps motivating and go ahead
with that one yeah.
If I ask the next one is that what are your future ambitions?
My ambition is like I mean my goal is to do science stay in science and maybe one day
have my own lab where I can facilitate next generation trend in whatever I have learned
and then yeah.
That's good.
The last question I would say sure what does it mean by research culture to you?
Well to me the research culture should be a culture where like I mean knowledge is being
shared where you can help people you are very friendly and you promote each other it doesn't
matter where you come from it doesn't matter where you belong to but you are there that
should be like a family culture where people support one another I personally believe in
this thing not only in the lab like I mean if somebody asked me or approached me seek
guidance for the scholarships are getting for example I'm in Australia getting to Australia
so whatever knowledge I have I just share it without hesitation.
Yeah that's the way because some somehow we have lost that connection now if you see the
human civilization is like communicating with each other sharing the resources and celebrate
together yeah somehow we forget that one and we say like okay we are working my work is
my work I don't want to share with anyone you know same side we are limiting that knowledge
to go to the next one and we are delaying the discoveries so sometimes the communication
and making collaboration is like you are working for science together not only one person can
solve everything no so you have to either collaborate with communicating this you know
conference or somewhere so communication matters a lot in science being in the lab and not
communicating what you're doing and when you write a paper I feel like when you write a
paper you write the experiments right you don't write the stories behind that that I
asked you today was a story and you said like that is a story but you cannot write that
in the paper like I go through yeah but these stories inspires you keeps you smile on your
face when you discuss this thing hundred times you always smile because this is this was
the struggle and this is a success that I got from that people don't see like I mean
yeah and this podcast is only about those things talk about those things those are small
stories that you got a discovery is like most of the accidentally discovery big scientists
in their cover these are all accident and all accidents yes and I think it will say
sometime failure like in the science we don't appreciate the failure of us they sometimes
very hard for a person who joined the postdoc or PSD they through go through a lot of you
know negative data yeah and they don't get results at that time yeah and somehow there's
a pressure from the community or say per se from the boss or you know in the institute
that you have to publish something but sometimes publication matters I know but it's still
like you you have to figure it out by yourself nobody's coming to figure out what exactly
happening no so we don't discuss about the failure we don't appreciate that one but those
failure are the sometimes basic for the discovery that you said today with us and that was exactly
like I mean you you learn from it right so if I take a look let's say if I had studied
my previous institute for my PhD that would be like spoon feeding and then like I mean
running projects I will publish papers blah blah blah I would not have learned like a
single thing yeah like it's a that's why like I mean we learn from these values so there
are like hidden messages there and that's how you become an expert like I mean if somebody
has a problem yeah then you can say oh yeah I had this thing so I can help you with it
but unfortunately that is not the case most of the time people they just try to isolate
themselves and not help yeah this was the only positive things they got not that I get
things what happened they can learn it happened the science sometimes I say some project didn't
work but those negative data we cannot publish anywhere and same thing somebody is doing
yeah same mistake somebody is doing and we are not improving those things but sharing
this one also sometimes maybe we are contributing focus on the other things yeah so that everybody
is moving forward rather than we are just pulling each other but not saying these negative
things you know.
So let's talk about Australia how is it?
Australia is a great country people are quite friendly the weather and environment is great
the only thing is it is quite isolated from the world quite far yeah somebody said like
that you are coming from Australia all the way Australia yeah Australia yeah yeah but
you know one thing you see like all world is a family kind of thing right so it doesn't
matter where you live yeah when you are coming to like this kind of scientific communication
and all those things like it feels like we belong to that this is a one family we are
all like a member of those exactly yeah great.
So that was Adil Khan from Australia and we will be coming back to the next episode next
week on Monday thank you so much for joining today follow for more such episode and I will
see you in the next episode bye take care.