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Hi, this is Prakash and welcome back to our podcast, the researchers roundtable.

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I am thrilled to introduce our guest for this episode, Dr. Adil Khan from University of

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Western Australia.

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....Came into my mind that, I should go for the science.

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Okay, that's a very good question.

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This episode promises to be both, informative and inspiring.

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I personally believe like I mean everything happens for a reason.

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Hi Adil.

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Hi Prakash, how are you?

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I'm good, how are you doing?

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I'm very good, thank you.

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Adil, tell me about yourself.

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As my name is Adil, I'm originally from Pakistan and back in 2012 I moved to Australia for

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my masters in biotechnology and then I joined University of Western Australia for my PhD

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in synthetic biology and after completing my PhD since then I'm doing my post-doc in

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the same field.

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Okay, so it looks like you started your science career beginning of the masters.

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So any idea how this inspiration came into mind like I should go for the science?

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Okay, that's a very good question.

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So during undergrad, whenever I used to study about my courses or some of the professors,

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they used to tell us about like I mean how the research environment is outside Pakistan.

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So at that time like I mean I got inspired and I thought I should give it a go but in

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the beginning it was not as easy as I thought it would be but I started my journey and then

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they say whenever you try so you can get to your goals, you can achieve your goals.

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So you did your master in Pakistan?

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No, I did my masters in Australia.

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Australia?

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Yep.

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And what is the journey between like a master to PhD then?

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So during when I was doing my masters at the time, the project was more focused on the

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cloning side and then at the time back in 2014 there was a little bit boom of synthetic

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biology so that got me inspired and one of the professors, my boss currently, Professor

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Anil Lester, I was in communication with him, he suggested this could be like an area of

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interest in the future so maybe we should go into this direction which I accepted at

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the time, I had no idea like I mean how easy the journey would be but if I take a look

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into that time, so I'm quite happy now that was the right decision.

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Yeah that's really good.

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So during your PhD you did synthetic biology and now you're doing a postdoc, you're doing

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the same thing or different?

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Well I mean the thing is during my PhD I developed the synthetic circuits which are similar to

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the electronic circuits but are based on the DNA that we use for programmable control of

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gene expression.

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So during my postdoc what I'm doing now, we are applying the same technology to program

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plants for space.

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Okay, if I ask for details can you explain that?

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Yeah sure, yeah so the way it works like let's say in the electronic circuits when you have

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the input and then there is no like I mean when there is input so we call it as one then

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the output is zero so that is like a not gate similar in the biological system so when you

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have a promoter that drives the expression of a gene so the gene is switched on all the

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time so it is similar like the not gate so when there is an input in the form of an expression

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which occupies this promoter and then the gene is switched off so when you have input

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one the output is zero so that is the same concept that we are using to engineer plants

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for like customizable fares and behaviors.

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Great, so Adil do you have any story like back when you were doing this work that leads

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to some discovery which you are really proud of?

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Yes there is, in the beginning as I mentioned I had no idea of the research area because

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my background was that I had done some cloning it was a bit different so when I started there

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was not much known in plants about these synthetic circuits or gene repression not many people

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has done work in this area and at that time when I started my PhD this was also quite

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a new area in the lab so I had to establish everything from scratch so honestly it took

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me like three years so for three years continuously including most of the weekends I was working

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to optimize the systems because we had like two variables there one was whether we could

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understand whether the system is working and then we also needed to have like a robust

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assay because you know like I mean plants when you are working with plants even the

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simple model alkenism and adiabatopsis it takes like six to eight months to get like

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the transgenic lines so imagine if you start working with it and after eight months you

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get to know okay now I need to go back and change this thing so that takes ages so we

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needed like a robust system which is like quite high throughput so you can get your

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results like let's say within a day so that's why I started working on the adiabatopsis

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protoplast system as an assay for screening synthetic gene circuits and as you know that

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the protoplast sometimes the data is like quite variable is not reproducible but we

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did not want that and that was our only option so when I started working on this the problem

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I was facing exactly the same that our data was not reproducible and I spent like almost

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three years and that was we were thinking maybe we can change the directions of the

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project because I was a PhD student it spent like three years just on the optimization

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and at the end of the day I had to graduate anyway so that was one day and it was weekend

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I got to the lab in the morning I started doing I thought okay I can go like with the

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plant-based method so I spent the whole day to isolate the protoplast and transfect them

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and then when I came to the very last point when I had transfected the protoplast so I

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needed to centrifuge it there was a time when I came to know that there was some problem

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with the centrifuge so I couldn't proceed so I thought I can just get rid of the plant

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but I was so hungry that I went to eat something and that was the time like I mean the magic

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happened when I came back the cells they were like sitting down at the bottom due to gravity

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and I thought okay I don't need any centrifugation so what I could do is get rid of the supernatant

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solution and that should work the next day when I checked the results they were like

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quite beautiful and I thought maybe and also my boss he couldn't believe because we were

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trying for like the past three years that maybe it is just a coincidence and then I

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repeated it like over ten times from like I mean randomizing the samples taking different

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batches of plants doing it on different days trying different DNA molecules to see whether

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these are reproducible and yeah it worked so I'm coming to the same point that the

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thing is that if you have some dreams if you want to pursue them and if you try your best

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so you can achieve your goals.

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Yeah that's right because if I was there I should not compare with you but it is really

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frustrating when things are not working when you are following each steps as it is written

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or you assume it's had work but suddenly that accident that you said I just wanted to leave

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that sample go back and eat something and came back and you saw that plus a working

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that's like you know motivation for even you spend a lot of time in the lab it's like you

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got that gift like you got your experiment is working like that.

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Exactly like I mean the thing is it is all about those little celebrations right you are

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in the lab nobody is around you you got your desired results and then you say yeah it started

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working so like I mean that feeling.

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So what was your reaction when you got this data?

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Well I can't explain that in words like in fact I cried at this time because I had spent

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like three years on it and there was like before getting into this field I had actually

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started my PhD because I had applied into different universities so the first one was

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I had done my masters there and then I because I was an internist student I came to know

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about my scholarship I started and the place where I am now I had applied there and because

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the outcome of the scholarship was after a couple of months so my first place where I

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had started my PhD there like the those were ongoing projects and I thought my thesis would

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be by publication and everything would be like quite super easy but here like everything

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was challenging so in all those three years sometimes I used to think whether I made the

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right choice whether I quit my first PhD and came here so at that time I was frustrated

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no doubt but when things were optimised if I take a look back I said yeah that was the

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right choice but like I mean all this struggle and everything so like I mean if somebody

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asks me I say like I mean never give up just try your best so your time will come.

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So here comes our tips and trick.

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I don't think our research is like as easy as we think when you're joining PhD or postdoc

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you have a project but as you plan it never goes that way so in that sense also like how

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you manage if you get setbacks like you said like you are trying that experiment for multiple

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years or something so what kind of a strategy now you think you should have taken at that

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time so you know manage those things.

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I think because if you are going to try something new and something normal so of course that

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will take time but I think if let's say I have the best thing would be if you have a

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student so I think one of the projects should be like quite ambitious and then there should

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be like a side project which could be like I mean easily achievable so I think that would

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be the best strategy because if they are getting some results from it they will be like motivated

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they have like something on the side and the ambitious project they could just focus on

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it but I mean there could be like some of the people that I have seen when they are

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working like this so sometimes their side project become their main priority because

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they give up on that ambitious project and they say okay maybe it is not working but

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what if they are just nearly there and they are able to achieve this goal.

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Yeah I see here like if you just think that on that day you just discarded that protoplast

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in the bin not kept on the bench and you just stopped that work over there the work you

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got from that you know research was like going in the wind but on that day you didn't you

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know stop thinking about your experiment and you got that data I think that is where you

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said like who knows that you are just a few step away from your goal.

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Yeah exactly.

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So keep each steps forward don't stop it don't go back just instead move slowly doesn't

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matter how you are doing but you achieve that one in the end so that you say I have invested

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five years four years doesn't matter what is you got is the end product and the other

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thing you said like habit B you know plan B your backup something when you are working

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on something new in the field make a side project which will be like a backup for your

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research you never know that side project become a main project and it is going to give

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you something else but in the same time so what happens as a postdoc when you are working

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in any lab either you are supervisor or you will do multiple projects so if you are jumping

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from one project to another the side effect is that you cannot focus any one of those.

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Yeah I agree.

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So it happened with you or just you focus only like a priority like these two projects

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are my priorities and I won't be focusing on because sometimes as a postdoc we cannot

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say no it happened like you have a responsibility to take this you know forward and all how

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do you do that once.

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Well I mean the thing is that because like quite challenging so being a postdoc like

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I mean you are not only working on your own project you are also involved like in the

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PhD students supervision so their problems are your problems and then you have your own

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problems it becomes like quite challenging so I think what I do in their thing so then

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I divide my time in a way so like I mean things which needs most like I mean are the high

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priority in terms of like I mean needs to be addressed like quite quickly so spend more

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time on them not leaving behind the other projects but it becomes like I mean you have

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to spend more than nine to five time which never happens in the research on the paper

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it is nine to five but the reality is you have to spend more time so I have seen like

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I mean staying until very late.

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Yeah so you say like time management now because research is not about like nine to five or

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Monday to Friday sometime you have to go and we can also.

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So how do you manage this your work life balance because this is very crucial.

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That's a very tough question and I may not have the best answer for it because work life

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balance is very important we all understand it but we are very bad at it.

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Yeah to be honest yeah so I mean the thing is one of the things that I have done I don't

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live very far from the lab so it's just like a walking distance like for five minutes walking

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distance so yeah that's how like I mean it helps me the traveling time getting into the

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lab and then yeah so somehow like I mean I could manage their time for myself so yeah

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that's what's good.

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So for example sometimes when I have like an experiment going on and there is like an

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incubation time that I have to wait for like one hour or two hours so I can take their

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time out and then come back see where points can do like some other related things in those

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ones.

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Yeah I feel like if you plan your work accordingly like sometime you're incubating sometime what

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happens is that it's a lunchtime is like a 12 o'clock to 1 you don't need have to go

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at that time so at that time maybe you're keeping 20 minutes for like experiment the

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incubation you're keeping here so you manage that way so that you know working but sometimes

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spending too much time do you think like from nine to seven or nine like a 12 hours in the

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lab reduces your efficiency work with the time rather than I would say five to nine

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to five you are more efficient or vice versa what do you think?

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I truly agree like I mean the thing is if you are working like several days six days

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a week that is not good like I mean you are pushing yourself behind yeah so beyond the

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beyond your body limits and I think even if you spend like five days working in those

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normal working days maybe let's say instead of staying in the lab instead of until five

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you can stay there until seven which is for five days I think the year will be more efficient

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if you take like some time off for yourself that is very important we don't realize it

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until we get to that point like when you are super exhausted so because at the end of the

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day your net efficiency matters working for extended hours where a extended period of

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time is not good for your health automatically yeah yeah yeah yeah for the long term it may

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be negative fact because I mean the thing is you are using your mind continuously so

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if you are exhausted your sleep is not complete so how can you come up with like solutions

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how you can come up with like the new ideas so if you are not in the lab what do you like

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to do how do you you know spend your weekends I because I mean I can't like when I come

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to the same point so we I have like some I'm quite social so at least I have hello hi with

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everyone and we have we are a group of like 14 15 people we get together okay then we

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do some barbecue cook together well spend our time there I said that time that's like

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I mean gives me strength because we are not talking about science I anything but I mean

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the thing is all that's time that we spend on cooking or preparing the food that is there

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but at the end of the day we are researchers and then we sit together to start eating yeah

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so some of one way or the other way we start these discussions but again I mean that is

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in a very lighter mood so that's how like I mean I spend my personal time with the friends

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or with the family yeah yeah that's very important because sometimes if you don't have science

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to do you need something to do with some people spend their time just walking around or just

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visiting places so do you think like if you're coming to science and you're coming to different

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country and different culture like I came to UK it was not like being in India yeah

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because India is more like family or in different oriented culture when you come here like it's

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like more isolated socially isolated you don't feel sometimes you belong here so what kind

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of advice you want to give like people if they are coming to another country how this

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this would exist because everybody's different somebody was extrovert into what but it's

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like as a human we live in a society right yeah you can't live alone and you have to

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feel like you belong in that society yeah that environment yeah I mean the thing is

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no doubt it is hard when you leave your family behind your culture and of course our culture

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is completely different to here because here people are more like adopted to being alone

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are independent where we have the family there so let's say if I'm away from home somebody

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will be at home taking care of something which is not the case here I would advise because

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I would advise to like I mean anyone coming from coming to these countries and so they

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can be I mean try to be independent point one like I mean try to do everything yourself

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and then the other thing is try to talk to people and try to interact with them sit with

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them because otherwise it becomes hard so those would be the things like I mean try

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to be independent in doing your own things and then also don't hesitate to talk to anyone

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in case whether you are having problem with something because people are friendly they

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help yeah most of the time people think like if I talk to someone maybe they were not interested

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because everyone when you're walking in street even in the department they are like silent

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you just feel like if I talk to them maybe they are not interested but it's the fear

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that if I start it doesn't go that way then it becomes like no I will be besamed of something

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and once you start talking like our conversation also I feel like when we started it was just

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like a hi and hello yeah and resting started the stories exactly so you have to start a

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story listen tell and conversation goes like a never ending it's like I know that guy from

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like a 10 years yeah so I think communication is one of that exactly like I mean the thing

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is we met like one and a half hour ago yeah we were having lunch and suddenly like okay

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Adil can you come to my podcast and I was like because you had a story which I felt

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like I'm hearing that one but if what happened if somebody is hearing this story and they

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are going through a lot sometimes we go through a lot because one of my friend when I was

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talking to him he said like he did a PSD he's applying for a postdoc and he said like I'm

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not getting any job it's very frustrating getting a job means a postdoc it's very tough

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nowadays yes I'm very competitive and other thing that you start questioning yourself

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yeah like am I worth it that I'm applying 10 20 postdoc and none of them are like a

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more successful so sometimes we question the PSD position like no I think I'm not going

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for science so do you have any suggestion for those people like well when you apply

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for something and then you don't get that position it doesn't mean that you are not

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capable right yeah and I personally believe like I mean everything happens for a reason

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so like I mean trying again and again like never giving up maybe because something better

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is destined for you I personally believe like this way so if you apply for a position you

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don't get it doesn't mean like I mean you have the problem yeah maybe something good

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is in the future yeah it's waiting for you and it's coming for you yeah I really inspired

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by this thing and that's make me keep moving because so many times it happened like I went

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apply for a Europe's Engineering and all and there was a conference I couldn't go so one

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thing is like my lab mates are there they're enjoying I should sit and just cry oh why

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I'm not there but on that week I realized I should focus that energy into some research

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I went back to lab and started working something and that time I found some I was talking to

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the photo bodies and all that data was came from that week where I couldn't go to France

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for the conference so I feel like like you say something you have to modulate your energy

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somewhere in a positive way that you say like if it is not for you then that is not for

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you it's something good is for you somewhere for you so that keeps motivating and go ahead

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with that one yeah.

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If I ask the next one is that what are your future ambitions?

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My ambition is like I mean my goal is to do science stay in science and maybe one day

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have my own lab where I can facilitate next generation trend in whatever I have learned

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and then yeah.

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That's good.

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The last question I would say sure what does it mean by research culture to you?

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Well to me the research culture should be a culture where like I mean knowledge is being

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shared where you can help people you are very friendly and you promote each other it doesn't

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matter where you come from it doesn't matter where you belong to but you are there that

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should be like a family culture where people support one another I personally believe in

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this thing not only in the lab like I mean if somebody asked me or approached me seek

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guidance for the scholarships are getting for example I'm in Australia getting to Australia

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so whatever knowledge I have I just share it without hesitation.

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Yeah that's the way because some somehow we have lost that connection now if you see the

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human civilization is like communicating with each other sharing the resources and celebrate

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together yeah somehow we forget that one and we say like okay we are working my work is

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my work I don't want to share with anyone you know same side we are limiting that knowledge

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to go to the next one and we are delaying the discoveries so sometimes the communication

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and making collaboration is like you are working for science together not only one person can

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solve everything no so you have to either collaborate with communicating this you know

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conference or somewhere so communication matters a lot in science being in the lab and not

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communicating what you're doing and when you write a paper I feel like when you write a

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paper you write the experiments right you don't write the stories behind that that I

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asked you today was a story and you said like that is a story but you cannot write that

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in the paper like I go through yeah but these stories inspires you keeps you smile on your

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face when you discuss this thing hundred times you always smile because this is this was

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the struggle and this is a success that I got from that people don't see like I mean

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yeah and this podcast is only about those things talk about those things those are small

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stories that you got a discovery is like most of the accidentally discovery big scientists

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in their cover these are all accident and all accidents yes and I think it will say

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sometime failure like in the science we don't appreciate the failure of us they sometimes

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very hard for a person who joined the postdoc or PSD they through go through a lot of you

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know negative data yeah and they don't get results at that time yeah and somehow there's

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a pressure from the community or say per se from the boss or you know in the institute

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that you have to publish something but sometimes publication matters I know but it's still

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like you you have to figure it out by yourself nobody's coming to figure out what exactly

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happening no so we don't discuss about the failure we don't appreciate that one but those

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failure are the sometimes basic for the discovery that you said today with us and that was exactly

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like I mean you you learn from it right so if I take a look let's say if I had studied

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my previous institute for my PhD that would be like spoon feeding and then like I mean

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running projects I will publish papers blah blah blah I would not have learned like a

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single thing yeah like it's a that's why like I mean we learn from these values so there

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are like hidden messages there and that's how you become an expert like I mean if somebody

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has a problem yeah then you can say oh yeah I had this thing so I can help you with it

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but unfortunately that is not the case most of the time people they just try to isolate

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themselves and not help yeah this was the only positive things they got not that I get

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things what happened they can learn it happened the science sometimes I say some project didn't

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work but those negative data we cannot publish anywhere and same thing somebody is doing

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yeah same mistake somebody is doing and we are not improving those things but sharing

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this one also sometimes maybe we are contributing focus on the other things yeah so that everybody

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is moving forward rather than we are just pulling each other but not saying these negative

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things you know.

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So let's talk about Australia how is it?

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Australia is a great country people are quite friendly the weather and environment is great

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the only thing is it is quite isolated from the world quite far yeah somebody said like

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that you are coming from Australia all the way Australia yeah Australia yeah yeah but

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you know one thing you see like all world is a family kind of thing right so it doesn't

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matter where you live yeah when you are coming to like this kind of scientific communication

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and all those things like it feels like we belong to that this is a one family we are

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all like a member of those exactly yeah great.

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So that was Adil Khan from Australia and we will be coming back to the next episode next

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week on Monday thank you so much for joining today follow for more such episode and I will

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see you in the next episode bye take care.