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Enjoy the show. Welcome to Soul Decodes. Join
us as we wander off the path to find the ideas
that fascinate. We talk about spirituality, the
mind, the ego, wellness and hidden history with
tips, travels and tales. Charms for a better
life. Welcome everybody, you're listening to
Soul Decodes and it's Friday. November 7th, episode
64. It's another special guest day. We have a
really good opportunity here to talk about something
that we feel is relevant to just so many people.
Do you agree? I do. Everyone. Yes. So I'm Dr.
Tia Jolie Phillips and you're listening to Sarah
Tirri. Sarah, we talked about depression. What's
your take on just the overall? state of affairs
with people well what are your thoughts on depression
well it's a very useful conversation to have
because everyone at some point has been depressed
we all know what that feels like so it's a really
worthwhile discussion and so we we have a we
have a guest in the house we're still getting
used to the guest thing but uh we have a guest
in the house and her name is jess and she's going
to be remain a little bit anonymous but we're
going to get the essence of her story out and
then we'll go from there. But Sarah's going to
take the lead and just kind of, because we're
both meeting Jess really for the first time.
We had a brief conversation, but Sarah's really
good about getting information out and kind of
getting the human interest part of this down
before we go into the details. So have at it,
Sarah, go for it. So you realize that you were
depressed. This was three years ago or prior
to that. And then you decided to take a radical
measure to. to investigate why that was, to alleviate
it. Can you just give us a brief rundown of what
made, because that's quite a big decision to
partake in, isn't it? Well, thank you so much
for having me and for having this discussion.
Also fill in the blanks about how you found out
about us. What's the connection? For sure. So
if you heard last week's podcast, you'd know
that Mike is my brother. And I know he mentioned
his sister a couple of times. So I figured it'd
be a good opportunity to come and share. And
to use this to reach people, you know, it's like
you said, depression has touched so many people.
Yeah. I can't think of anyone I know who hasn't
been depressed. Right. For sure. It's an epidemic.
And to the human condition. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
And it hinders so many areas of life. So for
me, I hit a wall. I was 39 growing up. I never
could visualize my life as an older person because
I was so depressed. I never thought that I would
reach the age of 40. And so at 39, I hit that
wall and I said, there's, I've got nothing to
lose. Right. Got everything to gain. And I've
tried everything. And what was the day to day
running of your life in this depressed condition?
Could you still work? Could you raise children?
Could you hold down relationships? Could you
tick tock along? It depends. Yeah, it depended
on the day. There was a lot of fake it till you
make it. But I never made it. Right. There was
a lot of faking it. There was a lot of putting
on that mask of this is who people think I should
be. This is who I think I should be. I should
be smiling. I should be happy. A lot of pressure.
Why not? You know, but inside it wasn't. Didn't
feel it. I wasn't. And this started at 15 years
old. So the majority of my life, I had the identity
of depression. It was a veil. It was a shadow
that was over me. But you recognized it. So you
were the watcher of this experience and the participant.
I recognized it, but I was never in control of
it ever. Went through all of the motions of trying
to get help in so many various forms. And a lot
of things helped, but nothing healed. Nothing
alleviated it. Nothing healed. You know, at 15,
I went to the doctor. Because, you know, my parents
realized something's going on. You're sleeping
a lot. You're apathetic. You don't want to go
to school. There's something wrong. So I went
to my pediatrician and he said, you need to exercise
more. And was there any truth in that? Sure.
There's benefits to eating healthy. There's benefits
to exercise. There's benefits to happy, clean
living. So did you try that? Did you implement
that? I tried, but I also left without a... Quote
unquote prescription. He said exercise. OK, what
does that mean? I'm 15 years old. Yes, you needed
more of a plan. And at that time, you know, I
was I was 12 years old when we got dial up Internet
at home. The Internet was not what it is today.
Right. So I didn't have access to a ton of information
and mental health wasn't talked about the way
it's talked about now. And it's still not talked
about. As much as it should be. It's not accepted
as much as it should be. But we're making advances,
aren't we? We're making great advances, but we're
not there. And for me, in the, you know, mid
to late 90s, that was not the reality. And do
you think... hand you have listened to conversations
perhaps like the one that we're having that this
would have been of benefit to you so what we're
doing is addressing what you might have needed
at the time where there's an open conversation
i'm not feeling the things i should feel that
a healthy young girl should feel for sure and
yet you came from an upbringing because your
brother said that that appeared to be quite normal
happy on the lake had all these you know it seems
quite an idyllic child very very i would absolutely
describe it as idyllic it really was we we I
grew up in nature. My parents really instilled
in us, you know, the love of God, the love of
family, treating each other with kindness, all
the things. But at 15, call it hormones, call
it biology, call it, you know, environmental
factors. You just lost interest. Yeah, just lost
interest in the whole thing. Yeah. Who knows
what it was that triggered it, but it was there
and it latched on and it never went away. Tough.
It really was. It was. And I... Really struggled,
you know, as a teenager, trying to make sense
of what all those things mean. You know, I I
had a what most people would call a normal young
adulthood. Yeah, I went to college. I got a job.
I moved around. I did things. But it was in spite
of depression. You know, I had to fight my way
yourself every time. And it got to a point, especially
in my. early to mid to late 20s where it was
debilitating i couldn't get out of bed the apathy
the apathy but then also along with the feelings
of hopelessness the all the mental aspects you
would anticipate feeling hopeless um feeling
down feeling sad all of the things that you could
equate to mentally also came with physical components
i couldn't physically get out of bed my whole
body Had you got dystrophy in your muscles as
a result of not moving? Had you slept a lot and
not done any exercise? I mean, your body was
packing up along with your mind in a way. Yeah,
my body was definitely holding on and creating
trauma in itself. And so, you know, it's like
when you put on a weighted blanket, you know,
those extra, you know, 15, 20 pounds, whatever
it is. I tried one of those recently. It was
horrible. Well, that's what it, that's what it
feel like in the morning. The weight just not.
So the effort, there was just so much effort
just to do something normal. Exerting so much
effort. I, there were days I couldn't brush my
teeth. I couldn't get in the shower. My hair
would hurt like my scalp. I mean, there were
just pieces of me that were just not functioning
and it was really painful. Um, and I didn't give
up hope during that time. I visited doctors,
therapists. I had a psychiatrist. And at 28,
I checked myself into a hospital. Oh, did you?
I did. That was brave of you. Well, I had gotten
to the point where I didn't trust myself. I didn't
trust myself to be alone in my house. I didn't
trust myself. To make decisions for yourself.
Yeah. I was scared that I could potentially harm
myself. And so I, you know, with the support
of my family. said okay this is how do you got
to the point where you thought of harming yourself
have you ever been close to suicide or was checking
yourself into hospital to prevent that it was
to prevent it but all of the suicidal ideations
were coming into my mind and i re i i could acknowledge
you know as you say the watcher i could acknowledge
this isn't normal thought patterns this isn't
what how other people function why am I functioning
this way there must be something wrong or different
about me and I need to get help and good for
you because that's a big decision it was the
backing of your family it was now I can say it
was a big decision and I am thankful that I did
it because it gave me that quick time out it
was a 48 hour stay To know, okay, I don't have
to worry about anything. I don't have to worry
about, you know, harming myself, but I also don't
have to worry about work. I don't have to worry
about, you know. You could check out. I could
check out. Under supervised care. Correct. I
could take a mental time out. However, that facility
is not something that is built for people dealing
with depression. It is a facility that's throwing
everybody in there. So if you're dealing with.
major psychotic break you've got schizophrenia
oh really you've got people who are dealing with
major depression issues and people who are detoxing
all in the same space wow that's intense and
it's different those those those maybe require
different treatments yes and different so I sat
there thinking I don't belong here but I also
the best thing for you actually at that point
I really it was it was like a reality check like
I don't belong here And I don't have it that
bad. But I still don't know what's wrong with
me. Yeah, you haven't investigated it. You know,
so it was... Oh, that was freaky. It was. It
was a real... Listening to all those people in
distress like that. It was hard. It was really
hard. I took away a couple tips and tools, you
know, to... you know breathing and you know just
just some meditation techniques but nothing but
nothing concrete that alleviated anything so
that's kind of disappointing it is it is but
I also left with a depression with a a prescription
for an SSRI so that's when my path of medicating
pharmaceutically my depression began and that
was about 10 years so I was on an SSRI for 10
years and did that help you initially I think
it was a stopgap because I had hope. I had hope
that this was going to work. Hope is a powerful
thing. I mean, I had hope every time I walked
into a therapist's office. I had hope every time
I walked into a doctor's office. I had hope every
time I took that SSRI that something's going
to turn around. And isn't SSR an antidepressant?
That would be the general classification of that.
I'll go ahead and chime in on this because I
think, first of all, I want to share with you
that we admire you for your bravery back then,
but also now. I think you're doing a major public
service, showing up here and telling your story.
I know it's not easy, but I appreciate you doing
that. The questions that come to my mind as you
talk about your history were... I understand
you went through this beautiful upbringing and
things, but these are questions from a holistic
natural health doctor. Presumably, you're getting
fresh air and sunshine and clean foods. But you
weren't, though, because you were lying in bed.
Your body was breaking down. Yeah, that's why
I was curious. I was going to ask that. So when
you're in bed, was it because you were not eating
properly or were you eating junk food? What do
you think was going on there? Because your body...
You were obviously hungry at some point, right?
Like you had hunger or not hungry. I mean, I
have tried different avenues for nutrition. So
I've tried a vegetarian diet, a vegan diet, mostly
in my teenage years. But my depression wasn't.
It was peaks and valleys, you know, not to not
to like the the manic state. I didn't have the
bipolar disorder where you have a huge manic
highs and then those low, low, low. This was
a low grade, solid depression. I was steady until
I was low, especially in those teenage years.
And when I was low, it was. depending on the
episode, a couple of days, maybe a week. If it
stretched to two weeks, that was kind of long,
but I would have gaps in between where I was
okay. But in my head, I was melancholy. In my
head, I was sad. But I could function. And I
wasn't, you know, in the dark in my room constantly.
So just meeting you for the first time and talking
to you, you strike me as a very brilliant girl.
Like you've got a good command of the English
language. You're logical. You present yourself
well. It seems to me just intuitively that you
are a very bright. Oh, sure. I got great, good
grades. And a lot of times bright, because all
of us were bright teenagers, all three of us.
I found that, at least in my youth, being bright
was also a very lonely place. Did you find the
same with you? Or did you find that you were
bright and people were okay with that? No, that's
fair. I think that there is a loneliness to being...
the other in any sort of way. I think there's
a loneliness to being a human being. Yeah. How
are you the other? What is the other? You know,
I was kind of the artsy kid in school. You know,
I wasn't, I played sports. I wasn't good at them,
but I played, you know, I, I tagged along for
a lot of things, but I didn't have that. sense
of self. I didn't have that full understanding
of who I am. And I don't think a lot of teenagers
do. And I'm in all of the ones who have it figured
out early. And your brother was in the same position
at age 17. He had an existential crisis. He had
no meaning to his life whatsoever. So this is
running in the family. Now you said you did 10
years on this medicine and it helped initially.
It did something that alleviated it, but ultimately
you were just still, you hadn't made the progress
that you were hoping for. It did something in
that I was hopeful that it would cure. I could,
you know, if I could be on this medication and
it would cure my, my mental state, it would cure
my physical state. Then, you know, I was happy
to figure it out and go along. I had to change
medications multiple times. Every time you change
a medication, it came with its own side effects.
I would have to increase dosage because my dose
had stopped working. Or I'd have to add another
pill onto it to be a booster. So there was always
these tweaking that were going along. So let
me kind of dive in here because there's a lot
of people out there that think. That the SSRI
does some benefit to you. What does it do? It
inhibits or enhances something. Well, it doesn't
enhance anything. Is it a tranquilizer? No. An
SSRI does not enhance something. It actually
inhibits something. Is that the I, the inhibitor?
Yeah. So SSR means selective serotonin reuptake
inhibitor. What does that mean? Basically...
It doesn't give you serotonin. Serotonin is that
neurotransmitter that gives your brain the sense
that everything's okay. Well -being. Just general
well -being. Now, it's similar to dopamine. Dopamine
is the, I'm thrilled to meet you. I'm so excited
because something is new or novel. Yes, the higher
level. When I first flew airplanes, I was just
so excited. It was just this high because it
was new and exciting and different. I was learning
new things. That's dopamine. Serotonin is a little
bit not as up there. So is it the inhibitor removes
serotonin in order to do what to your consciousness?
Serotonin is the feel good. Here's the link.
Holistically, there's two types of serotonin
that your body has generally. And I'm not a biochemist.
I don't want to get into that. But S1 is a configuration
of serotonin that's made in your gut. It's generated
in your gut. And the purpose of it is to stimulate
gut motility. What that means is that the smooth
muscle contraction of your gut The serotonin
squeezes your guts and it helps you poop, right?
It basically squeezes the gut so the poop comes
out. That's basically what S1 does. And if you've
ever had a really good bowel movement, you have
this really good feeling that comes over you,
that's the serotonin in the gut. It's done doing
its thing and it gets... released into the body
it gets released into the body and you feel good
it's a relief so it's done doing its job squeezing
the gastrointestinal tracts to do its job the
um the sequential movement of the gut the pair
the the motility of the it's called the uh peristalsis
of the gut so it's squeezing the gut but when
it's done doing its job it's done so it can go
back into circulation and you can feel good that's
why people who are constipated are cranky because
serotonin doesn't get released. It's trying to
do its job, but they ate the wrong foods. They
ate junk food, and they can't poop. That's why
the gut and the brain are so intimately connected.
So the S1 configuration, as soon as you release
it, quickly gets transferred. It gets flipped
over to tryptophan, passes the blood -brain barrier.
Then it becomes an S2 configuration within your
brain. The S2 configuration is just a slight
variance. That becomes the building block for
your melatonin, which is essential for your deep
sleep. So that's why your gut and brain are connected.
So if somebody's not pooping, they don't feel
good, they don't sleep well. It all starts with
the gut. So what an SSRI does is it prevents
the reuptake or the dissolution. or the absorption
of the serotonin that you're generating. Why
is that helpful to someone? Because that feel
-good that you have stays there. But if the initial
feel -good's not there, then the SSRI is useless.
The original serotonin comes from you. Your body
produces the serotonin. So what I do as a holistic
doctor is I help people. build their body so
it produces the serotonin, so it can have good
motility, so you can poop well, you can feel
good, and you can sleep well. And you can make
melatonin. And then you can make melatonin. And
during melatonin, you get the deep REM sleep,
and that's when your body rest repairs. So you
have this beautiful healing spiral, but it all
starts in the gut. But this wasn't naturally
occurring in Jess. She's given inhibitors. Sometime,
if you're not producing enough serotonin, the
little scrap of serotonin that you're actually
producing, they don't want that to be absorbed.
They want it to stay in circulation. So instead
of letting it be absorbed, they use a selective
serotonin reuptake inhibitor to keep it in circulation
so it's not resorbed, so you can at least have
that little bit of stability that the serotonin
offers. That's probably as far as we need to
go there. But just the bottom line is, if your
gut's not working, or it's deficient, or you're
missing some minerals, or you're missing some...
And did you have a complete panel with your body
to see what you were deficient in? Because now
you would have a complete blood panel. Spoiler
alert. Modern medicine could care less what your
enterotype is. The fungus and the bacteria in
your gut, modern medicine could care less. But
holistic medicine, if you had known Jess at this
time, you would have been able to give her this
information. I would have interviewed her and
asked her about her. What does she eat? And that
wasn't available to you. You had none of this
information. I had none of the information. And,
you know, you walk into a doctor's office, a
traditional practice, and they already have their
prescription pad out. Now, if an SSRI works for
somebody. Great. You know, if therapy works for
somebody, awesome. Like I am not here to say
that these things don't have a time and a place.
But for 10 years, you didn't get to where you
needed to be. But for 10 years, I didn't get
to where I needed to be. No. And from what I
now know, SSRIs were never initially created
for people to be on them for that length of time.
It was a couple of months. It was to get you
over the hump to where you could. take all the
tools in that you need to self -regulate without
this medication, but it's become prescribed,
prescribed, prescribed. So take us to the time.
So you decided, okay, I'm coming off the, I guess
you had to wean yourself off that. And that was
a process. And then you decided that you were
going to take ayahuasca because you needed something
radical to take place in your head. Because I
mean, like I said, the SSRI wasn't working. Happy
anniversary, by the way, three years today. How
did you even find out? Like, how did you even
take us through the process? Because of Mike,
right? Because of your brother. Yeah. So did
you know about ayahuasca before Mike? No. Okay.
So he introduced me to it. So I will say like,
just to go back on the SSRI real quickly, what
it did was make me robotic. I was a robot. I
had feelings when I felt real low. Cause I still
got the super lows. Even with this medication,
I could not feel happiness. I could not cry.
Unless I was in a very, very low state. I couldn't
feel emotion. I couldn't, I was not happy. I
couldn't feel happy. It just, it just created
this numbness. And I was tired of being numb.
I got to the point where I was so tired. Really
boring. Yeah. You know, I, I wrote in my journal,
I looked back on it prior to us talking and I
looked back to that timeframe and I wrote in
my journal, like I am at the point. Where I'm
done with a day before it is done. Done, yeah.
And I'm ready to just go to sleep. Yeah, you're
looking forward to that. And try again tomorrow.
It was always a let's try again. It was not this
looking forward to the next day. It was, okay,
it's coming. Let's battle through it. I just
hit that wall. So Mike said to you, ayahuasca
is something. So did you start doing your own
research? Yes, he presented it to our family
about six years before we actually pulled the
trigger to go. Yes, because he had a kid, didn't
he? Yes, he was ready to go to the gym. He was
ready to go and he found out that my niece was
on the way. That's okay, that's timing. It wasn't
the right time for him. That's right. this thing
with ayahuasca that people say you know like
you will get the call you will know when it's
time yes you will know when it's time for you
and I had gotten to that hopeless point and I
I looked at everything that I had done and I
said none of this is working and so I did some
research um And thankfully, you know, now there's
so many more things out there. There's documentaries,
there's books and there's podcasts. And so I
was able to absorb all the information and take
it in and make a decision. And I balanced and
weighed. What is the best option for me? Because
there are other things. I think you'd got to
the point, though, where it was shit or bust.
You were so depressed and so numb. Completely.
It didn't really matter what was going to happen.
Even if you'd have got freaked out, it would
have still been better than this robotic. 100%.
I was ready to lay it all out on the line because
I had nothing to lose. But there were other therapies.
There's ketamine therapy. And I looked into that
and balancing how much it costs. um that it's
not a natural substance and that you could potentially
get addicted to the substance coming out of it
i said okay that's not for me no you'd already
been on this stuff for 10 years so we covered
last last week we talked about iboga yeah did
you even consider iboga iboga was not on my radar
okay so um as far as psychedelics go And ayahuasca
was on my radar. And I think it's because that's
the one I was meant to do. And to be clear, nobody,
this whole process, nobody ever talked to you
about what do you eat? How do you sleep? No alternative.
Nothing about, because right now. Absolutely
not. Have you ever heard of no tropics? Okay.
No tropics. N -O -O tropics. There's mushroom
blends and things like the energy drink I gave
you, Sarah, the energy drink that's got no tropics
in it. Our greens have no tropics. These are
plant -based extracts, a lot of them from mushrooms,
some from roots, but they have a very profound
ability to normalize the brain. I talked to three
people in the past three days about this. Just
using these natural, very, they're not even pharmacological.
They're nutraceutical. They're from plant -based
extracts. But to help normalize the brain function,
to normalize the connection between the gut and
the brain, that's called the vagus nerve system.
But even now we're learning that bringing plant
fibers into the gut and feeding the good bacteria,
introducing prebiotics. probiotics to the gut,
those can have profound impact on the brain.
Feeding different families of bacteria like Bifidobacterium
longum, I know these are long names, but if you
feed the correct bacteria, Bifidobacterium prevotella
bacteroides, these are different types of bacteria,
where if you feed them and you feed the good
guys in your gut, The byproduct of them just
existing, the metabolic byproduct, are things
like acetate, butyrate, and propionate. Those
are very, very good chemicals for your brain.
Those are foundational for your neurotransmitters.
But Jess is going to see a doctor and he's ready
to write a prescription. It's a load of chemicals
and this information is just not presented to
you. This would have been a game changer. For
sure. But there's medical doctors. Some time
ago, they didn't even know this because it's
suppressed. They don't want you to know because
if I get your gut working properly and you feel
terrific all day, every day. You said in four
months you can recycle the whole blood system.
You can have new blood in four months. So that's
good that this is available. It wasn't to you.
The other question, just quickly, something tells
me that you were supposed to take ayahuasca on
the spiritual side of it. Yeah, there is that
spiritual side. Mike's podcast definitely dove
into that. I found that fascinating because you
said the same thing. You're called. You're almost
called to it. Tell me what that means. It's an
incredible experience that you really don't know
until you know. Until you experience it, it's
something that's going to be so foreign to so
many people. And it's very difficult to describe.
It's difficult to describe. It really is difficult
to describe. And people would tell me, you know,
the medicine calls you, the medicine calls you.
I'm like, okay, don't quite know what that means.
But, you know, even talking today, all of the
amazing things that you mentioned that plants
can do. I now know that. I didn't know that then.
It's fascinating. I mean, mushrooms, if you look
at their root systems, it's like your neurons.
I mean, it mimics the body. It's fascinating.
You know, even ayahuasca is a plant. It's natural.
It is a vine and a leaf that's crushed together
to make a tea. It is a natural. living substance
we can talk about your ayahuasca trip if you'd
like but when you got back from it what was your
state of mind how could you integrate after this
vast i'm assuming it was a vast experience wherever
you went so my experience was much different
than my brother's um i think he was because you
just did it once right once he was blown away
when i went to him to say i think this is what
i need to do and his response was like all right
let's go We're going. And thank God. Because
I wouldn't have done it on my own. Yeah. I needed
him. Yeah. I would not have done it on my own.
He was your rock. Yeah. Yeah. And he knew that.
He knew that. And I knew that. You know, we had
to do this together. Yeah. And thank God we did.
Because literally, it was like a light switch.
Was it really? I went in. You know, I guess to
describe the experience, it's a tea. It tastes
awful. I mean. When people call it a drug, it
is not a drug because there is no way that you
would get addicted to this substance. So disgusting.
Because it tastes so bad and it wreaks havoc,
good havoc on your body. But it's not comfortable.
No. You're throwing up. You're shitting yourself.
I mean, it happens. I'd have to wear a diaper
and have a big plastic bag. It's okay because
everybody there is going through it and it's
a healing process. So you're purging something.
You are. You're purging something. But it's not.
You're going in there to really fight some demons.
Yeah. So you have your eyes closed and then you
arrive in a location of some sort. Everybody's
experience is different. My brother can see things.
He had visions and traveled to what you would
call other worlds and had a very spiritual experience,
which was what he needed. My prayer for him was
that he would encounter spirit, that he would
find faith, that he would believe in a higher
power. And he got that and he did, which is incredible.
Well, he met Jesus, didn't he? He did. It's incredible.
Yeah. You know, you come in with an intention.
And what was your agenda going on? So my intention
and, you know. You just wanted to be healed.
You just wanted some sanity back. That was my,
that was my intention was to be healed. Yeah.
To be healed. I mean, I had some other, you know,
things I'd love to interact spiritually. You
know, I'd love to. To conquer, you know, have
a conquering over fear. You know, there were
other things. But my primary, if I came out and
I could be healed, that's all I wanted. And did
you come out completely changed? Completely healed.
You were a different person. Completely healed.
And when I say it was like a light switch, you
know, you take your tea, you drink it. It was
about 45 minutes to an hour. And you kind of
gauge where you are. Were you nervous? You know,
I was nervous, but I also had that freeing sensation
of I've got nothing to lose. So whatever happens,
happens. Yeah. I've got everything to gain. Yes.
And so you take your tea, you sit for 45 minutes
to an hour, and there's another call to say if
you need more, if you need what they call a booster.
come and take it. And so I went up, I talked
to one of the facilitators and I said, they said,
what are you feeling? What are you seeing? And
I kind of described like, I'm seeing some rainbow
patterns, some fractals. I feel good, but that's,
I haven't crossed the line. Right. That's about
it. She said, okay. I haven't broken on through.
She said, okay. She gave me another cup and she
said, take this. It'll get you where you need
to go. And so you were catapulted. And it was
amazing. absolutely amazing and it was a light
switch so literally that's what the amazing part
of is you went in one woman and came out refreshed
so you're in for for maybe eight hours depending
on you know how much you've absorbed um it is
something that's absorbed into your digestion
like this is a digestive system the way it works
um so it's fascinating that you talk about depression
being in in your gut because that's what i felt
Wow. Felt it in my gut. Wow. That's so interesting.
There's a lot of us that believe very strongly
that depression is linked to pathogens. Many
of them are basically... They're not only just
bacteria, but there's sometimes some parasites.
Right. Right. So you might have a parasite in
your gut. So the working idea, at least in my
brain, is if you can introduce something that's
going to kill the bad parasites and keep the
other balance, then you're going to come out
the other end just like she did. So I think as
time goes on and we research this further, that's
what we're going to end up seeing is a normalizing
the gut, a specific targeting of certain parasites.
Because think of it this way, the same way that
the good bacteria and the good fungus in your
gut produce good outputs for your brain and body,
the bad ones are also producing bad outputs.
So if the toxicity, if they're producing, a lot
of human pathogens produce ammonia. They produce
ammonia. That ammonia is very toxic to us. It's
like cat urine in your gut, right? That's not
a good look. It's not a good feel. And that would
necessarily cause depression. So normalizing
that, bringing a balance to the gut. makes all
the sense so when you've done this tea in eight
hours you sensed that it was doing something
to your gut but psychologically you were different
did you feel physically and psychologically yeah
yeah i'm gonna piggyback on that because i know
you said that mike i don't want to interrupt
but mike you said that mike's experience was
more spiritual but at the same time you say that
i'm going to call you out on this because You
got emotional. I like to watch people. You got
emotional when you thanked God for this. Oh,
yeah. That was the thing that made you cry. For
sure. Tell me more about that. For sure. So,
so I will highlight, I can cry now. So it's still
something I'm getting used to because I'm only
three years in and I'm now able to express emotions
and cry. So you're safe here. You know, it, it
happens a lot more regularly. Um, does it feel
quite liberating? Celebrate it. Yeah. You know,
I'm learning to embrace it. Yes, a new emotion.
And to not apologize for it. Right. But it is
a new emotion for me. So I'm getting used to
it. After you had this experience, were you able
to laugh? I mean, a lot of normal things, did
they get reinstated? Yes, but I'm still working
on it. So I'm in a depressive state for a majority
of my life. That's gone. I'm healed. However,
there are habits and tendencies that I have still,
I'm still working through. So we're going to,
before you go into your journal, I want to highlight
this because it's very relevant. I went to the
Air Force Academy and one of my summer programs,
I was actually an instructor, an instructor,
they call it cadre for commando school. So I
was teaching one day classes to cadets how to
be commandos, right? And it was just like an
orientation. Prior to that, we were taught how
to identify people with suicidal symptoms. Because
that program is very intense. And the whole cadet
program is very intense. So we were trained for
an entire weekend how to note depression, suicidal
tendencies, and this type of thing. So since
that time, I've really taken and paid a lot of
attention. Especially having lost my best friend
when I was about 40. He committed suicide. And
I'm just like... Wow. So I've really been paying
attention to sadness, depression, all these things.
What I know when I hear you is you said you're
able to cry now. Well, this is fascinating because
my working model of depression is being angry
or sad or having these motions that are not able
to come out. Either you're unable to let them
out because of a belief system or there's something
not permitting you to express that. So you can
be sad or angry. And those are legitimate. Like
if somebody smashes the windshield of your car,
you can be angry. That's a legitimate feeling.
But if you're not allowed to be angry or you're
not allowed to cry or you're not allowed, like
I grew up in a different than you, but same.
I was very, very depressed, very sad. My answer
was always action. Take action, climb trees,
do excitement, get that dopamine hit. I was always
doing crazy things. risking my life. So I was
using dopamine to compensate for that, like the
radical, just being a crazy person. So the thing
is, but when I reflect on my life, I'm sharing
this with you because the suppression of core
feelings is very central because I grew up in
a place where my mom would say, oh, you shouldn't
feel that way. But I would be sad or I'd be angry.
Get yourself together. Have certain feelings
about who I was or how I felt about life. You
shouldn't feel that way. I think that we as a
society need to lay off a little bit. And if
somebody's going through stuff, I've done this
to freaking 10 people in the past 10 years. Complete
strangers I saw crying. Complete strangers, I
went up and hugged them. And whatever they're
going through, I'm not going to judge them. I
say, don't feel that way. They're obviously feeling
that way, so let them go. And my question is,
did you have, as a child, did you have an opportunity
to, not did you, but did you have the chance
to? Did anyone tell you, don't feel that way?
Did you have a need to feel perfect? That's a
really good question. Because I felt like I needed
to be perfect. Yeah. Well, the expectations that
you shouldn't express too much emotion. We were
in a very open, loving household. Some of what
I felt was probably a genetic link. I mean, there's
depression in both sides of my family. That genetic
something that's just wired differently. I don't
know. But, you know, I... I was very, I was an
introverted child. I was shy. Did you have many
friends? I definitely had friends. Did you spend
a lot of time alone? I spent a lot of time alone.
I was the oldest, so I self -imposed a lot of
responsibility upon myself. So, you know, who
knows? Who knows at the end of the day, you know,
what... junk food I was eating or, you know,
who knows, environmental. I mean, it all plays
a part and just been a perfect storm of crap,
you know. Or you were supposed to go through
something spiritually and it was all supposed
to happen. So you could frame it like that. So
you could be here today talking to us. For sure.
And not to, you know, I don't want to downplay
the spiritual aspect of it because it was definitely
there for me in my experience. You know, I felt.
a communing with spirit. I felt the presence
of God. I felt my ancestors there. Now, was this
a presence, an audible, or was this visual like
Mike's? Did you see, I mean, big vistas or were
your eyes closed and this was a presence? So
interestingly with me, when my eyes were open,
I saw colors in lights. lights were intensified.
So if I was sitting by the fire, it was an intensified
light and I could feel the spirit of a relative
in that way. Wow. You know, I shamanic for sure.
I mean, I, I talked to people of past. I, I saw
images of, of what I could relate to, you know,
what this substance would have been like sitting
around the fire. back in biblical times. Maybe
you did. You know, it had that sense of connection
for me to God. Maybe this is more of a remembering.
Yes, that's a great way of framing it. I don't
want to keep interrupting, but these are curious
things for me. With your transition through this
process, like I don't even know what, well, I
do, but the listeners don't know who you are,
what you do. Did this experience, are you in
an environment, like a work environment where
this is commonplace? Or, I mean, is this, are
you, do you do accounting? I mean, what do you
do? And is this what you're? What you went through,
is that relevant to your work in any way? So
this is something I was so not connected to.
So this is totally... Completely in a different
space than who I am on a day -to -day basis,
what I do for an occupation. This was foreign.
Yes, foreign reality. So you really, literally
did not even see this coming until it was here?
No, no. And that's where it's slightly... You
know, my brother is a free spirit. He is a business
owner and can do his own thing. I'm on the other
end of it where I'm in a professional occupation.
I don't talk about ayahuasca to pretty much anyone
outside my family, my closest friends who know
what I did. I just recently met someone after
three years. that through a conversation, I figured
out, oh, you've done ayahuasca. And we had that,
you know, that created an immediate bond. Immediate
bonds, like, oh my gosh, I finally met somebody
in the wild, you know, that has done this. You
feel less lonely. Right, right. So this isn't,
and unfortunately. So you mentioned patterns.
So you came back, you felt healed and you felt
rejuvenated, but you realized you still had mental
patterns of thought forms. And now you had to
still do the work to overcome those. There's
still work to do. That's a good segue because
I want to know about the patterns. Yeah. Yeah,
because I think we all deal with those. I mean,
you and I probably got patterns we still got
to transcend. Right. No, there's still work to
do. I mean, and that's part of what's called
an integration. Like you are integrating your
experience into your life. How does it fit together?
And how do you continue doing the work outside
of the medicine space? Do you need more light?
No, no, no. So here, I do want to share this
with you. So like I said, I journal. Do you want
to use my flashlight? No, no, no. I journal,
I write. Um, and, and so during that experience
before, after I really tried my best to, to take
down things that happened. And so I might cry
during this, but this is the, this is the moment,
you know, I. You know, I wrote a couple of things.
I drank the medicine. I saw a blue butterfly.
You know, she wrapped her arms around me. I felt
comfortable. I felt safe. Oh, that was nice.
You know, there's things that I see. Can I just
quickly, quickly, is that as real, that butterfly
as you sitting with Tia Jolie and I? So for me,
my eyes were closed. And I saw and felt it. And
it was as real as this. Oh, for sure. So you
were right there. Like if the butterfly touched
you, wait a minute, if I touched you. Absolutely.
Right. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Wow. That's a
nice entry though. Beautiful entry into that.
I got some comfort and some peace right away.
Yeah, I want to see a butterfly. And I think
I needed that. Yes. Because what came next was
not lessons. So here's what I wrote down. Okay.
It says, I said, the best I can remember is it's
dark. It was a shadowy presence. It felt like
I was in a cold, dark graveyard on Halloween.
Oh my goodness. And I knew there were dark spirits.
I knew there were dark spirits all around me.
And did they have the intention to harm you?
It was depression. I felt it physically. It was
there. When I looked down at my belly, it was
bulging and it was filled with a large pumpkin.
And I felt like I was laying in a pumpkin patch.
And I knew that it had to get out of me. Wow.
Whatever it was, was sick and poisonous. And
it was rooted in my belly. I felt sick. And that's
when I asked Ayahuasca to take it away from me.
So you gave it a command. You commanded this.
I asked it. I said, take it away from me. To
get whatever was sick out of my mind. And that's
when I felt it all get pulled out. And I could
see a sewer grate. A sewer grate? Like a sewer
grate that had been placed over my mind to get
pulled off and lifted into space. And at that
moment, I knew that my depression was gone and
that life was worth living. So it had gone through
this sewer gate. It had been released. You felt
this pumpkin -sized ball of energy. And you asked
it to be released. And that's why you only did
it once, because you felt all this negativity
had gone. Yeah, I felt like I had a bookend experience.
I went from the beauty to getting my healing
to seeing other beautiful, wonderful things that
I could take away and hold close to heart. But
I also came away with a really, really sore stomach.
Like sore like you were punched or sore like
you had the flu? Or was it the ayahuasca? It
was a strange soreness. It was not like I needed
to lay down and I was sick and I couldn't move.
It was what I called my fire belly. It felt just
this burning physical pain in my stomach. I probably
had it into the next, I definitely had it into
the next day. Okay, so it's relatively short
span of time. It was short. It went away within
24 hours or so, but it was this burning pain.
And I mean, you're physically ill. You're throwing
up. You know, I was definitely coming out the
other end too. Yeah. You have, for me. I could
open my eyes. I knew where I was. I knew if I
needed assistance, somebody was going to come
over and help me. I physically got myself to
the bathroom and then I got back onto the mat
and I kept having an experience. I was, well,
you held your shit together really. I really
did. I mean, literally take a little bit here
and there. So that's good. You didn't get, cause
being in this ghouly graveyard with all these
sinister people, I mean, that's a hell of a trip
to be on if it's as real as this, which I'm assuming
it is. So you really have to have a presence
of mind that you might not even be aware of.
But there really was a, there was a physical
purge. There was a mental purge. At some point
I remember staring at a candle and it was flickering.
And I, this was after my depression. just gotten
ripped out of me and i'm looking at this candle
and i'm thinking god this is such a beautiful
moment and then i saw it again that is such a
beautiful moment that is such a beautiful moment
so your level of appreciation i was but then
i started grieving that moment is gone and i'm
never gonna have it again that moment is gone
and i'm never gonna have it you're having a good
moment and then you're seeing it being but that
realization of this moment is beautiful and I
need to live in it and I need to capture it and
I need to be thankful for it because yes, it's
fleeting. I never had that. No. Ever. I was ready.
I mean, on the flip side, you would have taken
it all for granted. You're not taking any of
this for granted. Everything has a massive amount
of meaning. I used to feel like if I died, it's
okay. And now if you saw a sunset, you'd probably
collapse after pulling your car over, wouldn't
you? And now. I know that it's worth living.
Like I know that every moment is of value and
it's beautiful. It's like the divine. Wow. Gratitude.
We've talked about this a lot on the show. I
mean, that's where you've got appreciation and
gratitude. And the importance of being present.
Yes. I wrote Robin some time ago. It was like
years ago. I was going through some stuff and
I wrote her a haiku. It was like 50 stanzas of
haiku for, but it was called the special present.
And it was a double entendre, but basically the
special present is the gift of the poetry. But
at the same time, the essence of the poetry was
this discussion of being present. The beauty
of the moment, the exact, everything from witnessing
a baby being born or celebrating a birthday or
being in a studio with two friends, right? The
presence of being in the presence of... perfect
divinity every moment every moment and that's
the thing about the candle in the grieving process
doesn't have to be there yes it's optional yes
it's up like the grieving of the but the grieving
was necessary because the appreciation was now
you felt like you were clinging on because i'm
going to lose it it's like you're not it created
the contrast yes which is great and I never felt
that before. No. I never grieved the passing
of a moment because I didn't care if that moment,
I didn't care if I was here. Well, I don't even
know whether you were in the moment. No. You
were in some mental elsewhere. Absolutely. Which
was a prison, so you were present. So a lot of
what we talked about now has brought us from
the past to the present. You experienced this
ayahuasca. Since that time, like I want to make
this real for the listeners. Sure. So somebody's
sitting here and there's going to be somebody
that's a Bible thumper and this is black magic.
And, you know, there's all these belief systems
and there's other people are like, oh, I'm all
about medicine. You need to go to your medical
doctor and all this stuff, like all of these
belief systems. Let's make it real for the person
that's listening, that's going through depression.
Like, I'm going to always suggest you talk to
somebody like me, you know, find somebody. Holistic
doctor close to you. Talk about your gut. Let's
bring some balance. So I'm always going to start
with that. But in your opinion, and this is not
medical advice or anything, but in your opinion,
who is ayahuasca indicated for? But importantly...
Who is it not for? Those are two populations.
Who do you think might... Start with the not
for. Who is this not for? Yeah, that's a good
one. And I'll preface it also by saying I am
not a professional in this area. And the listeners
know that. You're just a regular woman. I would
make an argument that you are the professional.
Well, you've got subjective experience. Yeah,
I have the experience for sure. done research
and you know i've i've dug into it but this is
not my field um but from what i understand that
there are some significant um significant uh
illnesses that you should not seek out ayahuasca
for one is bipolar disorder one is schizophrenia
um Because that could exacerbate it. Because
that could exacerbate it. I had to get off SSRIs.
If you are on medications and you take ayahuasca,
there are some significant issues with that.
So there's an issue, yes. It was very difficult,
but I had to detox and I had to be clean for
a couple of weeks without the medication in my
system that I had been taking for 10 years. So
is it fair to say that there's a process leading
up to... You have to do it responsibly. is a
right you have to get off right you can't be
schizophrenic you can't be bipolar you can't
be on that medicine what about an age now you
were what 30 how old were you i was 39 at the
time 39 now this obviously might not have been
right for you in your 20s is an age a factor
here i um i don't know no i i feel like you know
what what's the age when your brain is fully
developed 25 ish well 26 for males and women
we mature like a 21 sure oh really that early
so i mean i think that there's something to that
like you would you suggest would you suggest
that someone get in touch with their higher self
that's that and i haven't done it i intend to
but i would want to be having a prayer with my
higher self going the holy spirit whatever that
looks like in my pantheon my religion and I would
probably go on a gut feeling yeah yeah just I'm
going to do this or I'm not and I and I use my
intuition a lot it's a guiding principle in my
life so and I'm talking from a woman's perspective
I'm not sure about a dude but that would be a
guiding principle should I do this or not and
you'll be guided because your brother said he
was guided by the medicine the medicine was talking
to him so perhaps I agree go with your gut I
mean if you If you do the research, if you sit
with yourself and you understand your needs and
you've got real intentions for doing this and
you feel called to do it, why not? What do you
have to lose? And you've got to that point because
you didn't realize. I haven't got anything to
lose. Things can't get any more fucked up than
this, so I'm going to do it. So what resources
are available to people? We're in North America,
right? We're in Florida now, but just in the
broader scope of things. Let's just say somebody
hears this podcast and they're like, okay, this
sounds fascinating. I'd like to talk to somebody.
Maybe you have a big brother, big sister. Like
you had Mike to talk to. But let's say somebody
is in a vacuum. They literally have nobody and
they need to speak to somebody about such things.
What's a good first step? So there are a surprising
amount of documentaries. I mean, on mainstream
Netflix. you know where where they if you just
put ayahuasca and you're going to get a load
of programming on it there's oh i'm going to
try that yeah um it's a difficult word to spell
but i'll try there's a um there's a book uh called
how to change your mind um that was turned into
a documentary on netflix so if you're not a reader
you know Plug that into Netflix and watch that.
You know, there are celebrities who have done
this and have talked about their experience.
Aaron Rodgers is a huge proponent, NFL quarterback.
And, you know, there are just tons of podcasts.
Joe Rogan is. Joe Rogan talks about it. For sure.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, there's resources out
there to dig into. And it's important to go in
with the correct intent. For sure. And yours
was healing. For sure. Take this away. Yeah.
Yeah. So what advice would you give to somebody
that's depressed now? Because teenagers, I mean,
just being a teenager in general is a shit sandwich.
Okay. I mean, especially the past five years,
there's nothing normal about what's happened
in the past five years. Yes. Now the good news
is there's a bunch of people really suffering
from the result of these past five years of being
jacked up. So walk us through. Walk us through
if you were if you were the queen for a day.
Right. How would this how would we play out?
How do we manage the government? How do we manage
the state? How do we get through this? You force
everyone on planet Earth to do an ayahuasca trip.
That's your power. Well, I mean, everyone's doing
this. It sounds like it was sort of great deal
out. It was wonderful. But, you know, I've met
some very well adjusted people. people as a result
of doing no just just in life right so they wouldn't
need to spiritually they're healthy they've got
things figured out you know maybe you don't need
to to plug in i don't know i'm just curious about
what you and your brother have seen so mine is
just going to be a journey and i think i'm curiosity
is a great reason yeah i want to see what this
realm is and this is fascinating because we you
and i have a lot in common but i'm listening
to you so this is back -to -back episodes about
um natural compounds and stuff i i love listening
to this but i have no interest in this right
now fair enough which is yeah it's just totally
yeah um i want to hear why you're sure i want
to see it i want to see what's out there because
the things you're describing i get on a daily
basis i use lucidity i use states of relaxation
meditation i get to those states those full -color
states i get there almost on a daily basis so
i'm going to just say just to balance the conversation
that to those of you who are resistant to the
idea of natural chemicals, plant -based chemicals,
that's okay. That's okay. You know, you can get
to a place. It might not be in your life plan.
You can get to a place and I'll teach you how
to do it or there's other people that can teach
you how to do it. But just be patient and love
yourself and just understand that there's other
ways because your body produces chemicals and
you can get your body to produce those chemicals.
And Sarah's books, your books do an amazing job,
Sarah. I don't know if you know this, but she's
a prolific author. And, you know, the idea of
using, learning about your inner power, your
inner self and those things. Maybe you can comment
on that after Jess is done. But I want to kind
of bring this to a wrap up. And we talked about,
you made one mention about Iboga. Being a little
bit too much. Would you explain what Iboga is?
Yeah. Just in a nutshell. Sure. We don't need
to deep dive it. What's the distinction between
Iboga and Ayahuasca? From your perspective, knowing
that you're not a professional, but you're well
read and well researched, what's your take on
it? So there are a series of plant medicines
that fall under the psychedelic umbrella. Iboga
is one of those. Iboga or ibogatine is something
that there have been a lot of studies that are
happening very recently for veterans, individuals
who are dealing with PTSD, traumatic brain injury.
And there's a really big push right now in Texas
to bring it to allow these individuals to have...
clinical trials, you know, bring this to them
and allow it to be a medicine. I think that There
are different psychedelics for different needs.
Iboga is... Is it a light weight compared to
the ayahuasca? It's heavy weight. It's heavy
weight. Heavy weight. So Iboga is a 36 -hour
journey. Oh. Ayahuasca is about an eight. Oh,
wow. So, you know, you're in it for a longer
haul. However, the individuals that they are
studying this against have... traumatic things
that they have to work through so this is and
that time frame is more appropriate for what
they're battling it's a heavy duty it's deeper
it's a deeper yeah deeper work yes um but you
know psilocybin mushrooms you can microdose that
and and get great success for anxiety and for
relieving depression symptoms so there's shades
of psychedelics that are beneficial and medicinal.
The problem is they're seen as drugs. They're
seen as something that you have to go to the
black market for. And it's unfortunate that that's
our situation in our society right now. It needs
to be presented as an option. It doesn't need
to be for everyone. Tia and I did a podcast,
I think it was in January, and I bought all my
drugs in, didn't I? Do you remember I shook them
all and I had all these compounds, all these
chemicals, and I just decided absolutely I'm
not doing this anymore. And I was given Xanax
for sleeping and I had to come off. I didn't
sleep for the entire month of January and I've
been off them since. But that's just crazy to
me that we're given chemicals, yet these things,
which are plant compounds, and I believe that
there's a creator. that created this Garden of
Eden that we live in. And where is the logic
in not using what God gave us? And what's interesting
about this, Sarah, is you've got this bag full
of drugs, chemicals, that are basically petroleum
-based derivatives. I've got people who have
come to me because they're not sleeping. And
if you're not sleeping, your brain eventually
is going to get messed up because you're not
going to poop right, you're not going to sleep
right. Nothing's going to be right. Nothing's
going to work in the bedroom. Right. And so what
I do is there's a again, these are natural compounds
right from the earth. They're not psychedelic.
Things like it's called Shilajit or sometimes
it's called Mumio. I'll put some links in the
show notes. These are earth amino acid. They're
basically earth acids. All right. Things like
basically, if you ever like Mumio comes from
the Himalayas. You've seen these mountain goats
climbing these 84, you know, 85 degree slopes.
And they're in there and they're chipping out
this black tar sappy stuff, right? Chipping it
out. And they're eating it. They're risking their
lives trying to chip out this black stuff. That's
called Shilajit. And it's the earth. Again, it's
an earth compound. It's being presented from
the earth and it's a black tarry substance. And
what it permits you to do is it's very rich in
some of the earth minerals. It's got fulvic acid.
It's got humic acid. It's got a beautiful natural
mineral profile. Well, I give this to my people
to sleep better. I've got my God. Is this a pure
product? Yeah. OK, I'm going to try that. Yeah,
I'll give you some. Yeah, let me take some. I'll
take it. But basically. My sister -in -law is
an actress in Toronto. Her name is Jen. She was
having a hard time sleeping. She had just lost
her husband. My godbrother is a firefighter.
She was not sleeping, not sleeping, not sleeping.
She had this compound for one night. I also had
her take it. I can't wait to take it tonight
because I still get hot flashes at night. But
I also gave her some calcium, magnesium, potassium.
I still do it. I sleep just fine. But boy, when
I get into my lucidity, I can stay there. And
it's just natural compounds that the goats eat
and the amylase. And it just brings you. It's
very earthy. It's very foundational. So your
way of tackling mental health is to do the compounds
but start off as nutrients before you get onto
the prescriptive side of it. Because I feel like
we're going to take care of a lot of this if
we get our body correct. Then we wouldn't be
needing to go into it. I'm going to do it out
of curiosity. It's not just for sleeping. I use
it for my athletes. Because what you're going
to find is that the Shilajits and the Mumio,
elite athletes, are seeking this out. So if they're
in college level or above Olympic athletes, the
Mumio and Shilajit, they help your blood hold
on to oxygen better. Your tissues hold on to
oxygen better. So it's a very good, healthy move.
But also, if you're going to train at sea level,
like we have the Olympic Training Center here
in Claremont. If you're going to train at sea
level and then go compete in Denver. You needed
a little advantage. So getting your blood chemistry
able to hold on to oxygen better is a good move.
So do you believe that if we treat our body and
we have all the compounds we need, that will
take care of our mental health? Do you see that
this correlation in the work that you've been
doing, that if our body's messed up mentally,
it's going to correlate? Well, I look at it this
way. There's layers. So you have to have, first
of all, if you don't have a good foundation.
You can have a good foundation, but if your mom,
if your dad beats you as a child, you still have
to resolve that conflict. So I can still build
a foundation. But I work together with different
professionals. And I will tell people, look,
you need to get even red light therapy or even
a hyperbaric chamber. I can create the substrate
so that their body holds oxygen better. But then
maybe they need to get oxygen pressed into them,
right? So you can do things, even grounding.
I'm barefoot all the time. Being grounded, sleeping
on a grounding pad, bringing electrons into your
body. These are all very relevant. Even people
with low stomach acid, they're not absorbing
nutrients because they have low stomach acid
because they're deficient on electrons. Grounding
yourself. allows you to create it gives you more
electrons you can create stomach acid you can
absorb nutrients better it's all connected the
more we connect to the earth and return to the
garden the less likely we are need to need an
ibogaine or a an ayahuasca i'm not discounting
the use of those for certain populations or even
the use for people that are in combat and saw
their body get blown up or something there's
certain levels depends what your intention is
is it to heal is it exploration so don't is it
finding out new aspects of reality that are going
to be of benefit spiritually there's all sorts
of reasons for doing this yeah i mean and just
being able to talk to somebody about your feelings.
I have people who come into my studio and they
bawl their eyes out. In fact, if they're not
crying, I usually think something's wrong with
them. No, for real, because almost everybody
cries in the first 10 minutes of talking to me.
And it's not me. I mean, I don't hurt them. I'm
not busting on them. There's somebody that loves
them, they feel the love, and they start to cry
because nobody listens to people anymore. Nobody,
they're not girlfriends. They're not sitting
around. They're walking around with their phones
in their face and there's this disconnection.
But as soon as they feel a connection, if I go
to the chamber, Sarah, I go to the chamber. This
is a business chamber. People talking about their
plumbing and their real estate. There's a whole
people line up and they come and get their hug
from me. I hug them and they receive their hug.
Because it's free and it helps them and they
know it. Have you ever seen, it's Amma. She's
alive and well. She's a Hindu. I think she's
a saint. And she has a hugging ministry. So she
basically sits there for 12 hours on this big
podium and there's flowers. And all she does
is hug people all day long. I'm going to send
you. Ama, her name is, she's alive now. I mean,
she's revered in India and it is just hugging.
What she is doing is called a Shakti put. She's
putting energy into them in her presence. I do
that. And when I hug people, you talk about ayahuasca
being the mother, right? I actually, when I,
it's an energetic imprint, right? So when I hug
people, like if you come in, you're just a brand
new client. When I hug you, what I'm doing is
I'm actually visualizing. All of the mothers
throughout your entire lineage. To infinity.
All of your mothers. This is your mental process.
This is what I do before I hug the person. Wow.
All of the mothers to infinity. And I'm realizing
that you are their dream. You are their dream.
Every mother wants to do better. They want to
love and extend love to their progeny. And they
want their progeny to do better. And you are
their dream. So what I do is I manifest that
energy within me, and we're going to have an
energy worker on our next podcast. We'll talk
about energy. But I manifest that coherent energy,
and I hug the person as if it was like a group
hug from all of the mothers, and I surround that
person with that loving. nurturing, maternal
love. That's a big intent, a big transfer. You're
transmitting something. But it's not me by myself.
It's coming through. I'm literally summoning
all of her ancestors to be present with her because
she needs it. And you can't not cry. It's impossible
to not cry. If you permit it. But the people
who don't cry, they're almost always on medications.
So what you're saying about being numb? They
don't cry because they're not able to receive
it. It's like having a radio and it's got no
batteries or it's got the wrong circuitry or
there's a cut wire. They can't receive that blessing
because their circuitry is being short -circuited.
Yes, it is being transmitted, but they can't
receive it. Yeah, they don't have the receiving
capability. But once they're off the drugs, they
can receive, they can cry, they can... Do whatever
they have to do. So your life now, the fact that
you can actually experience emotion again is
very liberating, isn't it? That's good. So it's
a success story. It is. The whole thing, three
years today. Honestly, I look at it as... I mean,
where would you have been if you hadn't have
just had all this taken out of you? I mean, it
was almost like an exorcism. I don't know that
I'd be here. Really? I really don't know that
I'd be here. Yeah. It was... a true healing and
i the best i can equate it to is a miracle yeah
absolute miracle i never and your work now what's
your daily work to break the patterns of thinking
that got you into that situation so my work now
is you know to to reinforce all the positives
that i've learned to live in gratitude to right
to to be in a state of Feeling gratitude, feeling
blessed. You know, I really am blessed. It's
not easy for me to say I feel it, but it's not
easy for me to express because. The reality of
my life was I never used those words. I never
really used those words and truly felt them.
You didn't know what they meant. Right. And so
now to actually feel those things and be able
to express those things, expressing things openly,
I'm an introvert by nature. So expressing things
like that, it's a little challenging to begin
with just because of how I'm wired, but also
because that wasn't. That wasn't the way I was.
Well, the majority of your life, maybe 40 years,
was spent in a certain way. So you've got to
reinvent yourself. For sure. And that's your
great work now. Yeah. The hard part's been done.
Oh, the hard part's over. You've got all that
bullshit's gone. So now it's just embracing that
and integrating that experience. So Jess, what
is your hope as people listen to this episode?
And Sarah, thanks for being open to having another
guest. Yeah. I love this. I think it's a great
format. It's fascinating. You're only our third
guest, or maybe third, fourth, third, whatever.
I'm going to have to be a guest on my own show
after I've done it. But I think it's really cool.
I didn't expect we'd have guests, but after 60
episodes, I think it's time. I think so. So we're
going to start having other guests. The whole
premise is this is a soul's journey. What does
this mean to our soul's journey? But what is
your hope? For somebody that's listening to this
podcast, what do you hope they pull from it?
So I'd say first, my hope is that someone would
feel some hope, you know, especially if you deal
with depression. Just know that you're not alone
and there's an answer out there for you too.
Maybe it's not ayahuasca. Maybe it's something
else. And I hope that you find that something
else, whatever it is. This is my story and my
journey and how I found healing and I was able
to overcome depression and live a life I never
thought I'd be able to live. So hope would be
first and foremost. Don't give up. Keep trying.
Keep pushing. Keep fighting. It sucks, but you
can do it. Keep looking. And I guess secondary
to that is we as a culture just need to be more
open. We need to stop saying no and start saying
maybe. Yeah, let's look into this. Could this
be something? Do you think that there's some
conspiracy within the powers that be that don't
want a load of enlightened people walking around
the planet? Because if you open up these realms
and this liberates people, maybe we're going
to be harder to govern and manage. Who is easier
to control? Is it? brainwashed depressed sick
people it's kind of like you were just that numb
robot right right is it is it those people or
is it the people who found healing who are happy
who are productive who we might be up against
a kind of a machine but we still have to push
through have conversations like this and it's
encouraging that conversations like this are
happening that there's all these documentaries
out there that i never dreamed i would be able
to i'm gonna watch one so i'm going on to netflix
tonight yeah there's there's If you search, you
will find. And you can go onto YouTube and put
that in. And there's loads of people taking journeys.
Aubrey Marcus is another one. He's done a lot
and he's great. And I love hearing about, and
he just sounds like a very well -adjusted, expanded
man. So he's an inspiration. And I think that's.
well it's available these these youtube videos
and that's where i see all my videos they're
there they're being downloaded and you can arrive
at you know more information than you could have
done 10 years ago there's some amazing thought
leaders that are coming to the forefront and
and making an impact and their voices are being
heard but also acknowledging this psychedelics
this isn't new You know, they were doing some
incredible studies in the 60s and it was showing
incredible things for people who are dealing
with trauma and PTSD and veterans. And there
were so many positives that came out of it. But,
you know, it's it's not lucrative. And there's
some major challenges to it. I also think in
the 60s, you had the backlash of a lot of people,
the hippie culture in California. And it was
like, you know, it was portrayed as a load of
zombies. That everybody's going to lose their
mind. You know, they're walking around and their
children are playing in the street and they're
not coherent. And it was a really bad. Kind of
like it is right now. Funny that, isn't it? Unfortunately,
there were some big scare tactics. But, you know,
even beyond the 60s, like there are, it is. biblical
i mean i i can't quote that this is actually
totally factual but i have heard that if you
were to mix frankincense and myrrh together it
would create a psychedelic compound it's probably
what ezekiel happened to ezekiel in theory in
theory there could have been psychedelics oh
i think she's sure i mean i absolutely well let
me just go way back let me just give you an insight
everybody thinks gold set gold frankincense and
myrrh they automatically think gold is this This
precious metal. My position is it was not gold,
the precious metal. My position is it was probably
something like curcumin or turmeric. Because
why would you have two herbs and then a stack
of metal? That makes no sense. Something gold
in color. It was gold in color. It could have
been any one of the golden herbs. But the trinity,
the three of those together, probably had some
beautiful... impact on the people and that's
how all the sacred and spiritual literature got
written maybe because we're in some spiritual
realm i want to thank you for the the reference
to giving hope because the first thing you said
was offer hope i actually grew up with depression
i was very sad very depressed i was trying to
make sense of the world kneeling in church looking
at this this figure of this man bleeding out
and have my grandma telling me it's my fault
I'm like, shoot, I suck. You nearly said it,
didn't you? I suck. I almost said the word, but
I didn't know the word at the time. But now I
know it, but I didn't say it. But it's like,
man, dude, I'm so sorry. I don't know you, but
your cross is heavier because me, I'm a piece
of crap. I mean, those things, they will mess
you up. We have those conversations all the time,
but I grew up feeling so sad and so guilty, but
I didn't share it. And what I want to do in my
favor to anyone listening to this, if you would
have known me growing up, I was a very happy
child, but a lot of it was fake. Some of the
happiest people you think you know are going
through some stuff, and some of it's pretty heavy.
So what I'm going to ask people is this. I'm
going to ask you, first of all, all y 'all are
great at sharing these episodes. We have people
all across the world. We're probably in 50 countries
now with this broadcast podcast. We don't know
who's suffering and who's not. I'm going to thank
you in advance for just sharing this with people.
Just let them be the judge. Don't automatically
think that they don't need to hear this. Send
it to them and ask them their opinion, even though
you don't care about their opinion. Just send
it to them. Just send it to them because I would
have loved to have known about this. I'm going
to say when I was a teenager, this conversation
I think would have been more relevant to me than
now. If I didn't know how to control myself now,
but I had to go through all my stuff, same as
you. You've got all the tools now. But now I've
got the tools. Very powerful nutrition, nutraceuticals
that bring balance. I've got probiotics. I know
how to use them. I understand. I live in paradise,
right? I walk barefoot. I touch nature all the
time. Most people can't do that. So everyone's
situation is different. But what I'm saying is
that everyone's got a different part of their
journey, whether this applies to them or not.
We don't want to be the judge. as to whether
this applies to them. It might not. We want them
to be the judge. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So anyway,
thank you for being our guest. Thank you for
having me. Any closing thoughts on the way you
wrapped it up beautifully for your wish for the
future? Anything else to add? Can people get
a hold of you through me? I know you want your
privacy. So if somebody wants to... Ask you a
specific question. They can contact me and I'll
give them the answer through me. Yes, absolutely.
Folks, you can do that through souldecodes .com.
There's a little contact page. Say, hey, this
is for Jess. Ask her this. I'll send the message
to you and you do what you want to do. Perfect.
Sarah, any closing thoughts? Well, thank you.
It's been wonderful talking to you. And I love
meeting your brother. And like you, this hope.
And it could be something that you find. I mean,
your mind is going to be expanded. This isn't
an experience. I mean, you've got to be pretty
sure that you're mentally stable enough to go
to that area, process that and come back. And
there are stories of people that have broken
down as a result of that. So there is a danger
element to it. But trust your gut. Do the research
on it. And if you like you were aware, you know
what? I've got to do something because this absolutely
sucks. Have you met anyone that hasn't come back
from this? Because when I asked your brother,
he said what he was talking about, the church
that he used to go to and the reviews, even though
people had a hardcore experience, the reviews
were fantastic that they wouldn't change that
experience. So it might be a bit freaky. might
be hardcore it might take your breath away it
might you might need a few days a few weeks to
come back from it but ultimately nothing much
can happen to you now everyone that I have met
that has gone through this you know with me or
during instances where I volunteered when other
people were going through this everyone came
out the other side with the most beautiful stories
the most beautiful feelings the healing they
needed you know, work to be done on the other
side. It's never done. That's what we're here
for. Well, that's what I'd like to leave the
show with, that it's a beautiful experience,
even though it's hardcore, and it can revolutionize
your entire existence. 100%. So I look forward
to doing it in the next couple of months and
then we'll have another podcast. Well, I want
to thank everybody for joining us today on Soul
Decodes. Jess, thanks for joining us. Sarah,
it's always good to see you. Thank you, darling.
It's lovely to be here. You can go to souldecodes
.com. A lot of the information we have, the show
notes, I'll put some links. I'll put a link to
the Live Pure products. You can order. What I
was talking about is called Serene. Yes, so let
me score a little bit of that on the way out.
Yeah, I'll score something. And I'll take that.
So yeah, we'll be in the show notes and we'll
talk to you next time. Thanks in advance for
sharing Soul Decodes with somebody you care about.
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