Welcome back to another episode of Once Upon a Trip with Mary Grace and Marco!
Woo!
Hey!
We are very happy to have you back.
If you are new here, I am Mary Grace and this is Marco.
We are the hosts of this show.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Today's episode is going to be about business trips because don't we all love business and
work, right?
Oh yeah.
Marco has taken business trips both here in the US and also in Germany.
I thought it would be a really great idea to have him go through his personal experiences
and just to do a little bit of compare and contrast.
With this episode, we really hope that you learn some tips on what to do and what you
shouldn't do on a business trip when you're dealing with Germans, but this also can apply
to so many other nationalities as well.
It's not just Germans.
It can be literally any nation.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
Please be sure to like and subscribe if you have not done so already.
That would really, really help our small channel and small podcast and it would really mean
a ton in helping us grow because we like growth too, right?
Yes.
Like in the business world, you like growth.
Let's start with your business trips in Germany and how your American business trips have
differed and if you've seen anything shocking, if you have experienced any sort of surprise
on any of your business trips.
I mean the surprises really only happened in hindsight, especially when I came over
here, when I saw the other side.
For starters in Germany and I would say any continental European country, you meet somebody
and then it's usually on a, you know, on a mister and miss kind of basis.
Very formal.
Very formal, both in written communication, but also when you meet somebody, either you
go there or they meet you.
By the way, this is not just about going somewhere.
You can do business, let's say here in the US and you can have a guest from abroad and
even though you're in your comfort zone and you still will have a kind of a foreign exposure
and depending on how well aware both sides are of each other's kind of cultural differences,
it can create some awkward moments or misunderstandings.
Have you experienced any awkward misunderstandings?
Awkward misunderstandings?
No, not so much, but it really hit me when I came here.
One of the first American business trips I went on, just how much more casual things
are here.
And that was not just with the trips, but also even if you email somebody that you have
never emailed with, just the way people talk to each other.
Because in Germany or Europe, let's say, it's very formal as you said, it's mister and miss
or missus, usually like a German email in a very formal kind of setting is either hello
mister or missus blah blah blah or even we have a phrase that's like very honored mister
or missus blah blah blah.
So it's a very formal setting.
And here I've gotten emails that were like, howdy Marco, but yeah, let's do this in caps
and exclamation point.
I'm like, what?
What?
What's this?
So that's number one, from a traveler perspective, I remember talking to people both at their
office and also like later on, maybe over a dinner or something.
And just how much they also share about their personal lives.
I found that very remarkable.
To that extent, you would rarely find that in Germany.
So that kind of caught me unaware.
I remember that the one guy we just, you know, we were talking in the middle of business,
right?
And then all of a sudden, you know, I think we had like a working lunch.
He talks about his family and like shows pictures, you know, this is my house and this is my
car and this is my daughter and she studies at the University of I don't know where and
I'm sitting there like, okay.
So that is different.
I mean, it's nice.
I've actually grown to like that a lot.
But if you don't know that for both sides, it can be a bit weird.
Why in Germany or in Europe per se, is that not common?
Why is it weird to share something personal like your family and house to a client or
to anybody in business?
Why is that?
I think, I mean, depending on the chemistry you have with somebody, you do share more
or less.
I mean, in my personal case, it really depends on how I click with somebody.
I can't really tell you why, because I think in general, the separation of personal life
and professional life is much more distinct than it is here.
I don't know why that is, but it just is.
For an American going to Europe or having a European visitor, either way, it can create
weird moments when, especially when the European is not as well versed when it comes to American
kind of business style, and they might be confused when right from the get go, they're
addressed by their first name, even though I will say most Europeans that have some business
experience or international business, the English language is standard.
Most people will know that it's on a first name basis and that's fine.
But some people still might not know it and they're like, hey, okay.
Why are you calling me that?
We're not like best buddies.
What is this?
Or when you talk about very intimate personal stuff, then people would be like, okay, that's
kind of odd.
So yeah, it's innocent things.
It's usually not things.
I've never experienced anything that was just totally weird.
And again, since we're also talking about other cultures, I mean, I've never been to
India or China, but I've had Indian and Chinese visitors.
And you know, there are certain things, for example, with the Chinese, they are obsessed
with business cards.
It's like almost a ceremony, them giving you the business cards, and then you have to look
at it and like, yeah, awesome.
You shouldn't like put it in your back pocket because that basically is disrespectful.
That basically means, yeah, your company's ass.
Don't do that.
With Indians, sometimes, you know, they have a hard time maybe admitting that they didn't
understand something.
And you have to, in a very subtle way, you have to basically, hey, repeat it back to
me, to really know if they understood what you were saying to them.
Because they will just say, yes, no problem, even though, even when they have no clue.
You know, that can happen.
Those are the kind of innocent things.
You should never, and that goes for both sides, never hardcore kind of talk about politics.
Even though I will say, not myself, but I've had other people do that.
Would you like to share your story about what happened with that?
I had one particular experience in Texas.
That was kind of cool because, well, maybe not cool, but it was kind of funny because
I was always under the impression, yeah, you know, Americans, neither in their personal
lives, especially when they meet somebody or in the professional or all the less in
a professional setting would talk politics, like really the deep and real, where they
really have no filter where they say how they feel about things.
So I went to Texas outside somewhere outside Dallas, Fort Worth, went there with a colleague
of mine.
I guess the guy had maybe had a sense that my colleague was of a similar persuasion,
that neither me nor my colleague prompted any political kind of discussion.
But he was very clear about how he felt about Democrats and people from California, which
were in his mind, presumably all Democrats.
So that was a bit of a shock to me.
I sat there and the guy says, yeah, you know, those Californians, when they when they're
leaving California and they move to two places like Texas, it's like a cancer that spreads
to the nation.
And I'm sitting there and I'm just like, I had no comeback.
I had nothing to say.
And then it was a couple of months before the last elections.
And I tried to be neutral about it.
And I said, well, you know, me being a foreigner, I can't vote here anyway, so it doesn't matter.
And then he just went on and then he said, well, you know what, you would be able to
vote had you come illegally across our southern border.
Those people all vote.
But the legal immigrants like yourself, they don't.
And I was just there.
I was like, oh, man.
So that was that was a that was an experience.
That was my first exposure to Texas.
Yeah, very, very.
I'm not I'm not saying that Texas is, you know, they're all like that.
Actually, I had I had a really good experience.
It was nice.
You know, people were nice and food was nice, maybe not healthy, but nice.
That was kind of maybe the most odd exposure I've had in the business world.
What about in Germany or in other parts of the U.S.?
Can you remember anything very specifically unique or maybe not unique, but just I can
remember?
I can't.
Yes, I can remember something.
Nothing that I have experienced myself, but another kind of intercultural thing in certain
countries like Russia or I think even in some parts of South America in a business setting.
When you go there, let's say as an American, you go there, your business partner will pick
you up or will have you picked up like because especially in areas, maybe where it's a little
bit of a safety concern that you might be like kidnapped or something if you take a
cap.
You know, who knows?
You know, it's yeah.
So you should also inform yourself about when I when I get off the plane, what is the expected
way of doing things?
Also from that country's safety perspective, or are you even allowed to drive with your
drivers?
You know, the questions of that nature.
And we have a co worker who transferred from Russia some years ago, and he didn't get the
cultural briefing, I guess he went to see a supplier.
Where in Salt Lake City or outside Salt Lake City.
And based on his Russian experience, he was expecting to be picked up.
Well he was in for real treat.
Or actually the supplier was because he got off the plane and he didn't go to the rental
car.
He was like, where is the supplier, so where are you?
And they were like, what do you mean?
Well, aren't you picking us?
Aren't you picking me up?
And they were like, no.
So I remember that story also being told from that supplier.
And it was that was funny.
Things like that can be awkward because if you don't know any better, they think you're
insane.
Like what is that?
Doesn't that person have any manners or you know, who they think they are that they're
being like picked up like, you know, like like the king or something?
Things like that can matter.
Yeah, I mean, not from my own personal experience, but I have heard from Koreans and from Japanese
people who do business within Asia that another common business trip tactic or at least business
in general is to go drinking with the boss or if the boss invites you to anything, you
better not say no because it makes you look bad.
And when you do go out with the boss, you do basically whatever the boss wants you to
do.
So it's like P.E. drinking as much as the boss drinks, which is yeah, I don't think
we have that sort of culture in the U.S. or really in Europe, but that is just also very
fascinating.
Like that pressure.
I've had that.
I've heard that too.
Yeah, that there's kind of an like company internal peer pressure in companies like like
in China or what the boss, you know, what the boss says goes.
And even when it comes to drinking or something.
Yeah.
I haven't experienced anything like that.
The only thing I've experienced is drinking with business partners were in certain cultures
to maybe also they wouldn't trust you if you didn't drink with them.
I had I had one experience in Romania one day that was even a bit of a thing within
Europe where I was like, OK, that's weird.
It was lunch at the company and they served lunch.
It was good.
And they served shots of whatever liquor.
I have not heard this story.
And totally expected.
I have to drink with them because I think otherwise they wouldn't trust you or something.
I don't know what the culture is, but it was it was kind of funny.
I was there with another colleague of mine and I think I took two shots there or something.
Because he was he was he was handing out another one.
My colleague was saying like, oh, no, I'm driving.
And then that guy said, it's OK.
I drive too.
And I was like, OK.
Yeah.
Romania, everybody.
That is interesting.
I have not heard that story.
So wow.
I didn't realize that you have now.
It's an Eastern European thing a little bit with this kind of drinking thing.
I could be wrong.
You know, feel free to comment and correct me.
But I was not prepared for that.
It's just with really like hard stuff like, you know, like 40 percent kind of stuff.
Oh, it was probably so I don't know what it is in Romania, but probably similar to Turkey
and Greece.
So like rocky or like very, very hard shit.
It was hard.
It was OK.
I wasn't driving.
And so I was I felt OK about it.
I drive to what about Western and essentially Eastern Europe?
So let's just say, for example, you were to go to, I don't know, Poland or you were to
go to Czech Republic or if you were to go to anywhere.
So should you have a different attitude and approach and communication style when negotiating
or at least doing business in these countries?
I don't know about the negotiating part, but I will say what is noticeable about companies
in Eastern Europe is that the hierarchy is very distinct.
Like you only talk to the boss or like if you go just to somebody like that, he will
always or she he or she will always kind of circle back to the boss.
And it's much more hierarchical than here or in Germany, for that matter.
That's been the biggest takeaway for me when dealing with companies and like, yeah, check
out whatever really the boss is the boss and is untouched.
So what should visitors on business do in these situations when the boss is the boss?
You should just be aware that you have to channel things through the boss if you if
you want to get something done.
Same thing, too, in India, depending on what you're talking about.
Also, you have to escalate things maybe much more quickly to the next kind of manager,
whereas in Germany, you don't have to do that right away because the people have a mind
and kind of an authority of their own to deal with certain things.
In other countries, you have to go through the manager much more than you have to do
that here or like in the West, in the West.
That's very helpful to know.
I would think that there would be some sort of difference like that, like the attitude
is naturally a little bit colder and it is helpful to know that if you do business or
if you pursue any business trip in countries basically east of Germany in that case.
Now another thing that I think others wonder about when traveling within Europe and on
business is should people learn basics of the local language for business or is sticking
to English considered standard?
I mean, is it rude if people don't learn any words at all of the native language while
traveling on business?
Because we don't want to be ignorant.
We want to be polite.
We want to show that we are culturally informed.
But how does it work in business or how would you think it works?
I mean, again, international business English is kind of the default language.
Now, of course, you maybe you do make a good impression if you enter the room and you maybe
you greet somebody in the local language that can always help to, you know, build a relationship
or help with the first impression in the chemistry.
I think it's not so much the business part of it.
I think if you travel somewhere getting to the meeting that you have to go to there,
there might be countries where English is not a mainstream language, where people that
are outside the business world don't speak English.
Yeah, maybe that can be a problem.
But no, I think from a business perspective, maybe it's flattering to speak a couple of
words.
Learning a few words of the local language is always helpful, whether it is personal
or business.
It's just respectful and thoughtfulness goes a long way.
But then maybe you should be really sure of yourself before you do it, because if maybe
you mispronounce a word or you say something vulgar because you just make a mistake.
So maybe you want to be too good and too polite and that can backfire on you.
Have you heard or experienced this or not you, but have you witnessed this happening?
I have not witnessed it happening.
I know that there are differences between European and Latin American Spanish.
I once heard the story and I don't know what exactly he said, but he said something in
European Spanish.
So he's Spain Spanish.
Yeah, Spain Spanish in Mexico and in Spain, that would have been a totally normal question,
but it had an entirely different meaning in Mexico, like a vulgar meaning, like basically
saying like, you know, is she going to pick me up, like to drive me somewhere like tonight
or whatever.
But the way he said it, which would have been perfectly understandable in Spain, that same
phrase in Mexico basically would have meant, you know, basically I'm going to sleep with
her tonight or something.
I don't know, maybe Spanish speakers know what phrase I'm referring to, but that's kind
of the story I heard that somebody had.
Yeah, if only our Spanish was good enough to say what that was.
I can't think of something right now, but yeah, I don't know until I know.
If somebody comes in and speaks German or tries to speak German with me, and I haven't
had an experience and maybe for a future episode, if I happen to run into something like that,
I can share.
Yeah, you can represent.
But yeah, it can be awkward.
You can really mess up on your first impression and just like in a personal life, in the business
world, that's also very important that you never get a second chance to make a first
impression.
Have you made any bad first impressions here in the US on a business trip?
I don't think so.
I think so far it's been very, very good.
And maybe some some misunderstandings or something, but very innocent stuff.
Nothing detrimental where you're like, oh my God, what just happened or something.
Do you remember what those examples are?
Yeah, maybe where somebody said greets you and said, oh, I didn't expect you here today,
even though it was scheduled and confirmed.
That can be a little bit misleading or a little bit kind of off putting even so that I had
recently.
Like I expected you next month, not today.
And I'm like, I invited you, you accepted it's today.
Look at the calendar.
But that's not a cultural language thing.
I think that the guy was just a little bit not there.
He was just, yeah, he just had a weak moment, I guess.
Another way to potentially get business here in the US, and this is often a sales tactic
that I'm not sure is used as much in Europe, but I do know that if you want to get American
business, oftentimes providing free stuff or providing some complimentary shipment,
gifts, presents that can sometimes win you business.
So if you provide free donuts.
So I know that at my company, there are vendors that will send us a free dozen donuts in hopes
that they will get some exchange.
Or recently we had a vendor from Las Vegas who sent us champagne.
It was a video surveillance company.
They sent champagne in the mail and like a super fancy example of what video surveillance
services they can provide.
And I mean, there was money in this package, but yeah, oftentimes if you want to negotiate
with an American client, you have to not have to, but oftentimes you will have a bit of
a further edge in the competition if you provide some free complimentary stuff.
It depends on the industry.
So yes, little gifts and little gestures definitely help.
But especially when you're dealing with a big corporation, there are compliance rules
and very elaborate compliance rules where you must not accept a gift that exceeds a
certain value.
For example, I don't know if somebody brings you like a little book or something little
to eat or something, but it shouldn't exceed a value of let's say maybe like $20.
I think like that.
Is this in Germany or is this in?
Both.
I find that in big corporations, worldwide global companies, you could be accused of
being compromised, of being bribed.
If you have to award business, if you have multiple candidates to award business to,
that can be considered, hey, you were bribed, you were not being objective.
You were doing this for your own personal gain and then you can get fired.
But yes, people still try to do that.
I've heard stories.
I mean, I've never been, but I've heard stories in China, for example, and like big business
meetings that there are even envelopes with cash in it that they're trying to bribe you,
that they're downright trying to bribe you.
I will say though, like little things, donuts, or any kind of company merge, maybe like a
little book to write in or something.
That is fine.
But with the gifts, you're dealing with a big corporation.
You have to be careful accepting those.
Culturally, it is always nice to have like gifts makes things more pleasant and also
established trust and these things and it's good for relationship building, but you cannot
overdo it and you have to be careful, especially if you're on the receiving end of a gift,
then you have to be careful on both sides.
What about email correspondence?
For example, I don't serve clients necessarily, but I had somebody in my company who had a
German prospect for commercial real estate and I didn't have to really respond to this
guy, but I was just thinking about the agent in my company.
How is this guy supposed to respond to this potential German client who is interested
in property?
I mean, is there a certain way that via email you should address Europeans or Germans?
Should you say, dear blah, blah, blah, or should you say to whom it may concern blah,
blah, blah, or should you say hello or should you not say hello?
Is that too informal?
No, hello is okay, I think hello is okay.
I mean, I sometimes also do that.
It really depends on kind of also what I want, kind of.
I am the client usually, I work with suppliers, so I am the customer, but I think especially
people that are trying to sell something to somebody, when they reach out, maybe they
want to be more formal, I guess.
I'm not entirely sure how to answer that.
I will say that I think, yeah, if you reach out to somebody via email for the first time
in Europe, it would be maybe kind of nice to go by the last name and say, hey, dear
miss, or hello, you don't have to say dear, but like, hello, mister or missus, so and
so.
But these days, depending on the experience of the other person, they might be totally
fine with the first name, but anybody who isn't and who is just kind of starting out
in the business world might be like, what?
Nobody does that.
So from the American perspective, yeah, we are more informal, you are totally okay with
addressing somebody by first name in an email, in a phone call.
It would be weird if you were to get on the phone and if you were to call somebody by
hello, mister Johnson, like, or to whom it may concern, like, it's too much.
I mean, I do, I, well, the to whom it may concern, I do do that when like on an, in
an email, when I sent the first email to a, like an info app where there's no guy.
Yes, that is okay.
I do that too.
But if there's, if you know, if I'm addressing, I don't know, just John Smith.
If I know, hey, this is John Smith, then yeah, it's hello, John, right?
What about with Americans or with people going to Germany or going to Europe?
So you mentioned people, visitors coming here, but what about the other way around?
What should Americans, for example, do on business in Germany?
So you mentioned calling people by mister or missus.
I think you can feel free to share about yourself, but don't put some somebody on the spot and
ask them a direct question.
Like what about about their personal life?
Don't ask them a direct question about their personal life.
Be yourself for one thing, be yourself, but don't expect that people are going to be just
like you and just be aware of that.
And as far as the travel itself, there is no difference in traveling on business or
on a personal kind of vacation trip.
Just when you, you know, when you drive, you know, you should, you should be brief or you
should brief yourself and inform yourself about just certain things about the, if you
want to drive your car, if you want to drive a rental car, what are the traffic rules?
Or if you want to go out and eat somewhere, how do you tip, you know, things of that nature.
So I don't think there is, there is a whole lot to it, but yeah, when it comes to the
business setting, it is a little bit more, yeah, I want to say uptight, honestly, from
an American perspective, it's probably, you would say it's uptight a little bit.
You just have to establish a certain chemistry, whatever it takes, establish trust.
And once you have that and you're being transparent and you're not misleading somebody and you
know what someone else's goal is and maybe how, okay, what can I give them so that they
can give me what I need?
What about company credit cards and expenses?
So is everything covered in a German business trip, like the U S typically, and do you get
a company car?
Do you get like these sorts of things?
It depends.
So I can only speak from my personal experience and just the people I know.
America is you go on a business trip and your entire trip, including your meals is a hundred
percent covered, right?
That's my, that's at least that's been my understanding.
And that's how my personal role right now with the company I'm with works.
So you don't have to worry.
You just act regularly.
You go out and you eat something.
I mean, you shouldn't go crazy.
I mean, you shouldn't take advantage of it, but just the way you would spend a day and
eat just like on any other day on your own and everything is just covered.
And in my case, yeah, I have a company credit card and everything goes on that credit card
and that's it.
So on a certain number of things or when it exceeds a certain value per transaction, you
have to hand in receipts.
That's pretty straightforward.
Now in Germany, either when you book something in advance, maybe it goes on the company credit
card or you pay it there, but your meals, your personal meals are not covered.
There is, and that depending on where you go, like the German equivalent of the IRS
has a like an average per datum kind of flat fee or flat amount of money that they would
reimburse you for.
But usually unless you go to the supermarket and eat dry bread, that's not going to cut
it.
You kind of pay out of pocket when you go somewhere.
And then you have to like when you hand in your report, you have to specifically tell
them, Hey, when was I provided a meal, including the breakfast at the hotel?
Or if a business partner invited you to dinner or something, then they deduct that and then
you get less money.
And with the times it's such as science and in America, it's really straightforward.
It's so much easier.
And the biggest thing too is hotel.
When you check out of a hotel, the hotel bill in Germany and both companies I have worked
for so far, I think so by that, I feel like it's a general accounting constraint in Germany.
They are absolutely religious about the address in the hotel bill.
It has to specifically lay out the exactly correct company address.
Otherwise in German accounting, they have to reject the invoice or they, I don't know
what the reason is.
Maybe they can't get the tax back or whatever.
Whereas here it does not matter.
As long as the bill kind of shows, yeah, so this was pertaining to that one business trip,
I'm good.
I've had bills where there was no address on it at all or just my name or maybe even
misspelled or the company or also with typos and misspelled and nobody cared.
In Germany, people like the accountants lose it over it.
They're like, no, there's a typo here.
We're not in, I don't know, the zip code is wrong or something.
Like there's like a typo in the zip code or something.
We cannot accept that bill.
I've seen this when I had German colleagues from Germany over and they were at a hotel
checking out and the American receptionist, like Francesco Persson, didn't even know what
the problem was.
They were like, yeah, this has to be the exact address has to be on the bill.
They were like, what?
And here it doesn't matter.
So yeah, accounting wise, that's trivia.
Another thing too is when you have a business dinner at the expense of one of the companies
that you have another business partner and one of them is paying, usually the sales person
is paying for it on their company's dime.
That happens on both sides of the pond.
But the thing is for those people later on handing in the receipt at their company, not
only do they have to hand in the just a receipt of that restaurant, but there's also there's
a second receipt that tells like, yeah, this was a business dinner and number of people
or something like that.
So like from that kind of process perspective, it's just so cumbersome.
And here it's just straightforward.
I mean, there's a receipt.
Yeah, there was we had dinner and that's it.
I remember we had a we had somebody from Germany over and invited us for dinner here in the
US here in the US.
Yeah, came over here invited.
I think it was an may have been an internal meeting even same deal.
Doesn't matter if it's internal or external.
And we had to go back to that restaurant and get another like receipt so that the German
people over there could process it.
It was weird, just weird.
Germany is weird.
And I say it here when it comes to those kinds of things, it is Germany is so ridiculously
inefficient and just unnecessarily complicated.
Germany should change that now.
Now like right now we have a new government now.
What are some of the biggest lessons that you have learned from your business trips
and your business experience in both countries?
Honesty is the best policy.
You know, don't mislead anybody.
I always try to treat people the way I want to be treated.
But that goes for both my personal and my professional life.
Read the room.
You know, when you when you go somewhere, you just you know, you can't prepare for everything.
You have to observe and trust your judgment.
Play it by ear.
Find the chemistry, read the room and see, OK, what's the dynamic and trust your gut.
You just have to be very cognizant of your environment.
And that goes both for both.
If you've had any specific business experiences or business trips here in the US or if you've
gone abroad to another country, if you've gone to Germany, if you've gone to Europe,
if you've gone to China, if you've gone anywhere where you have a specific special experience
that you would like to share, please feel free to comment that below or feel free to
let us know.
Or correct me if if if your experience has been different than mine.
I think there were so many things that I learned and that Marco had not told me before we hit
record.
There was no occasion.
We really hope that you enjoyed and that you learned something new today.
We thank you so much for tuning in.
We will see you next time.
See you next time.