[00:00:00] When it comes to education, for me, I've had such a dramatic transformation in my own life because of education, because of educators I've encountered. That I cannot deny the value of it. There's no amount, of money or status or comfort that can capture the value of education. It's truly this incredible gift. So when I encounter people who believe that education is not important or they believe that the work I do, is no better than babysitting, I think that they just haven't seen that value for themselves. They have not seen education alleviating unnecessary suffering. Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in Education Podcast. The space for Education Meets Resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode we dive deep into the personal stories of educators, students, leaders, and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities within modern education. Whether you're just starting your teaching journey [00:01:00] or are a seasoned professional looking for inspiration, we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, and build trauma-informed communities within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at the front of the classroom as we get started. Hey, welcome back and thank you for tuning in now to part two with the Classroom Narratives podcast conversation with Chris Mukiibi. In our conversations together, we are talking in combination about real learning, real trauma, the ability to suffer less, and also the power of connection through our schools and our communities. But before we go into part two, let me show you some highlights from part one that will come up again in the second half of our conversation. the biggest thing I noticed with those kids is, a lot of them tagged me as the adult, they felt safest with on campus, which I. So deeply appreciate and recognize the privilege of that. I do think that suffering can be mitigated. Now I'm not saying we can eliminate suffering by knowing things, not, not at all. But I [00:02:00] do think that when we are suffering, it's because we do not know something, or it's because we do not understand something. I've watched some students make decisions and think about things in a way that I saw was, I don't wanna say they were emulating me, but , they approached things in ways that I would approach things. And I'm like, I didn't teach you how to do that, but they saw it and they were learning anyway. And so I think that that's very important to keep in mind that who we are as people is influencing them, even if the content didn't stick. it was spring semester, senior year, my academic father, the social studies teacher, and my academic mother, the chemistry teacher, found each other on campus and they said, we're really worried about Joey today. He is not in a good place upstairs, based upon how he's talking about his transition to college. And because of that, as a first year teacher, I sacrificed myself by making their same decisions. When I saw students in crises, I would [00:03:00] walk them down to the counselor, I'd walk them down to the principal, and I'd say, I'm sensing A, B, C because I've been through DE, F, and I'm worried about X, Y, and Z. And instead of being met with compassion and assistance, I was met with resistance and they would say , who do you think you are to be doing this for our students? Could it have gone any differently where I did not have to sacrifice myself to save the lives of the students? I thought I did and I realized probably not, because I was only making the same decisions that my own teachers had done in the past. . I was modeling them. there were many, many times I encouraged the students to write about the experiences that they were struggling with. And every single time they were willing to do it, they got better. And they didn't just get better from, Like not feeling sad anymore, they were able to then take those experiences and catalyze them to do more later or to make a bigger difference for other people. There you have the highlights. Now let's [00:04:00] go ahead and jump into part two and get the conversation started right from where we left off. You're also reminding me of, okay, so after that senior year had happened, yeah. I began my first summer term of college and in the summer we're actually taking a no credit. I've never heard of that before. A no credit student success class. Even the professor she walks in on the first day she told us that she was actually leaving at the end of that summer semester, so she was only employed by the university for six more weeks. In the back of my mind, I completely understand her now my heart goes out to her, but at the time I'm like, dude, you should not be standing here teaching these petrified first semester summer freshmen if you're about to leave, because we're not gonna remember you and build a relationship with you. But we walk in, she's like, yeah. You don't have to pay a penny to be here. This class is what it is. Now that I think [00:05:00] about it. I don't even know if she was getting paid to teach that class at 8:00 AM on a, on a Tuesday morning. Oh, wow. Over the summer, because it was no credit for us. Like sometimes we're paid by the credit. So she probably didn't even get anything from what I'm guessing. And um, wow. So our first assignment was to just write about how we feel about being in college. And again, I get it now, one foot out the door, but I pretty much wrote in my first, second, third week of college. I'm like, I hate it. I don't wanna be here. Almost like my first year of teaching. I don't know anybody. I don't have a backup plan. I don't know what I wanna do, but this ain't it. She sent it back to the check mark. She gave it back to me with the check mark through it. And to me that was like, that was so dismissive. Yeah. And I never forgot how I felt when I saw that come back to me. So then we had to take a two credit, welcome to college success thing in the fall. So now we actually get to have credits wrapped up towards that 120 mark that, that threshold line in the [00:06:00] fall. And we all had to do it again because I was a part of what's called a learning community cohort, which it was suggested that I use it to meet new people. I see. Which I, I met more professors than than classmates by being a part of that, which is fine. And um, so anyways, I'm in this cohort and the professor who I had then, her name is Becky, Dr. Becky Mulvaney. She had the same assignment, how are you feeling about college? Da da da da. And I wrote almost the same response. Mm-hmm. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't have a place here. I don't feel seen. And she passed that paper back to me. The next class, it was probably a Thursday, 'cause we wrote that on a Tuesday. That composition, she waits until everybody else leaves the room to give mine back to me. She hands it back to me. She says, I read your composition. And all I wanna ask is, how are you doing? Not from the time you wrote this composition two days ago, but how are you doing today? How do you feel today? And what support can I offer you today? And going forward? There was something about [00:07:00] that moment that made me feel so seen. Yeah. And I bring that up, Chris, because you too are somebody who makes people feel seen without being a therapist. Without being a superhero. Right. And by using language, by using words and letting students share stories, that's all we're doing is letting them feel seen and heard. So the ps, Becky and her Graduate Teaching Assistant, who is now the director of Public Speaking at FAU, Cynde Carrico, the two of them were my entire major. I took 10 classes between the two of them. They were right by my side when I graduated from FAU and they were also the first people that I was in touch with when I graduated 12 years later with my PhD. Wow. And I see the two of them all the time. They are my other academic set of parents that, in fact, I have to call Cynde today as well. At some point we owe each other a phone call and I just sent Becky a picture of me walking through Van Cortland Park last week to show her how the leaves are changing up here. So these are people who I have formed [00:08:00] lifelong connections with, all because they let me feel seen. That is amazing. That is, that's our best work. Amazing. You know, I remember when we first met, you shared some of your feedback practices with me. And I remember being so blown away , because, admittedly like , my feedback in my classrooms is not as thoughtful as yours. And hearing that story, it, it makes a lot of sense now , that that is something that is a core value for you as an educator because, oh man. Well, how can you, how can you not. Want to give meaningful feedback after that experience. I love that. So I'll tell you this. I'm teaching the same class that Becky taught me for now. I teach a class, I taught it for five years at St. John's. It's a freshman orientation student success cohort that I have ran since 2021. And over time, especially like we said during post COVID, it really has become a lot more out of me to make those students find their purpose in college. And that's hard. Like I can't pull the purpose [00:09:00] out of them. Yeah. So when students do write to me and say, yeah, I don't know why I'm here, it is so easy for me to say, well then don't, don't be here. Yeah. You don't have to be here. And sometimes I, I just might call it exactly that way, but then I pause and I remember what Becky said to me, and I'll pull that student to the side and say, Hey, I read your work. What can I do to support you while you are here, regardless if you choose to stay or not. The fact is that you are here right now, so how can I support you in the now because you are here? And I start the conversation from that way. And I think that's also helped me remain in the class because I tell the students, if you have somebody who doesn't care about you, you let someone, you let a supervisor know you, let a Chair know. You let the Dean know because we don't want those people as your teachers. So I, I have to preach my own words and just show that I care, however that looks for them. Dude, I love that. And I, and I think that makes a big difference for them too. And, and keeps you connected to the work, [00:10:00] which is just so critical. I love that. Absolutely. And I start to get to know my school a lot better that way. Like there are sometimes where students like, oh, well what, will help me feel connected is if there is a club about A, B, CDE. I'm like, I have no idea if that exists, but I will make some calls, I'll write some emails, and I will find out for you. And I learn about other people in the university because I'm reaching out on the behalf of those students to see if that's beautiful. You have spoken Chris to so many different types of educators and people within academia at this time, and between all the different conversations that you've been having, what would you say is one of the most massive revelations that you have had in being an educator? Like what is something that somebody has told you where it's like, I didn't even think about that now you've tried to actually put it into your practice. Yeah. You know, for a lot of people, this is gonna sound very obvious. But for me it was a huge revelation. So I started this burnout study, in [00:11:00] parts to launch my education business, but also to solve a problem that I was dealing with. And I figured that if I can try and teach people something, I would become an expert myself. Because that's how it's always been for me. That's how it has worked. And everything I've ever taught, I have learned thoroughly every time I try to teach something. And so I went off to explore this idea of burnout with teachers and why it's happening and all of this. And there are a million and a half reasons why it's happening. But the biggest thing that I noticed, from just talking to a lot of people is that you can, I don't wanna say cure burnout, but you could really, really manage it by feeling connected to other people. And it sounds so obvious because we're humans and we're social creatures and we love to talk to people and we're social , but to me it wasn't obvious. I'm a pretty introverted person. I keep to myself quite a bit. I may have like a hyper independent problem, I don't know. But also when you teach [00:12:00] in, in K through 12, you spend a lot of time just in a classroom, pretty isolated, like on an island. And we do a lot of collaboration, but the majority of the actual time I'm spending, I'm not really connected to the other adults, as far as like co-teachers and administration. I spend most of my time, when I'm at work, with the students in my own room. And so I didn't realize how disconnected I felt from other people. And I always thought that the solution was to do less work, take on less and rest more. But when I was doing the study, my calendar was packed. I was interviewing all the time. I was waking up hours before I usually do, I was staying at work hours after I usually do. And I was not feeling the burnout that I thought that I was experiencing before. And I was wondering why that was the case because I was, I was taking more on, I was working harder. I had less time to quote unquote rest. And so I was like, why am [00:13:00] I not feeling as exhausted and tired and purposeless as I did before? And in having those conversations and reflecting on my experiences, I realized that I was just feeling more connected to other people. Yes. And, and that made all the difference. And what was cool about the interviews is, well, I got to meet people like you and, and all the amazing educators I have met on the internet. But I was also interviewing people on my campus and they would reference me to other people that they knew on the same campus. And so now I am literally more connected with the people around me. So when I'm walking around on campus or we're in the staff meetings, the faces are not just familiar. These are people that I've had in depth conversations with, I've had vulnerable conversations with, and they have felt connected to me. And it, it changed everything man. It changed everything. And to me, I'm, so, I don't know if I'm like emotionally illiterate or something, but I, I [00:14:00] had no idea what the problem was with me internally when it came to feeling burnt out and honestly just so resentful about the job. And when I would talk to people and they would tell me about how, oh, well no one's leaving my campus because we're all having barbecues on Saturdays or, uh, and I'm like, what are you talking about? Or everyone on my campus is going on ski trips every winter break and I'm like, What are they doing differently? That I'm doing differently? Right. And it's, it's because they were connected to other people. And so that, I would say, is the biggest realization. Now, of course, I, I learned a lot of other amazing insights from interviewing people, but that one was the biggest one for me personally. And so now whenever I'm thinking about, feeling that burnout, feeling that heaviness , my first go-to is, okay, well who can I be connected with right now? Who can I go be connected with? And also it's not really about lightning the workload either. It's about asking or finding other people to help you lift it. Because when you're doing that [00:15:00] together, that's also a form of building connection and we get more done. And so , those have been my biggest insights. Just for me personally, those are dramatic transformations with how I approach this work and how I approach my life. 'Cause I used to pride myself. On how much time I could spend alone and be completely fine, which I do. I love spending time alone. It's some of the best time I have. But, I didn't think that feeling directly connected to others was that important. And now I believe that it is the most important thing. It is foundational, not just for a healthy career in teaching, but I think to be healthy anywhere. Absolutely. I'm on the other end of that, knowing the consequences because as someone who chose to be a deliberate separatist, I saw the turmoil that has built up as a result of those consequences that virtually exploded in my senior year of high school, and how I resented the need to have a change. Now, again, we need to connect through healthy relationships, which you do so [00:16:00] beautifully. Like I knew that if I were to go to a party. Like I said, I'd probably call the police. That would not be a healthy relationship with a very unhealthy ending for all involved. So, um, yeah, having that sense of connecting this to others to help us better ourselves is the best way to go about that. Because as educators, I always say the best way to choose a school is through four factors. Good location, good students, good admin, and good colleagues. Because I want to know that if I ever had any circumstance at all that I feel is beyond me, I have my colleagues that in my first year where I made certain decisions that I did, truth be told, I did not make them alone. When I had a student in crisis who was in my second period, it was an ongoing crisis that would not be resolved in one day. We were on the block schedule, so we had 1, 3, 5, and then 2, 4, 6. So I was two. I knew her four and I knew her six. So I went to four and I went to six and I said, I will keep an eye on the student every [00:17:00] morning. I need you to watch her during lunch. And you six watch her in the afternoons. And by that, we formed a village. And I could not have done that if I did not feel a connection to my colleagues. And that would made even harder on me to feel like I was the only one , that had eyes on this child at all times. Totally, totally. And , maybe it's because educators have like bleeding hearts or something, but I, I do think that when we're connected to these kids, it is impossible to separate their challenges from our experiences. Like I, I do think that on some level we feel what they are feeling. Absolutely. And that cannot be ignored. And if, if we feel like we're the only ones dealing with that, it's too heavy. It's too heavy. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so we've talked a lot within our conversation, or rather do your reels as well about how the nervous system actually works in the classroom. And sometimes I also feel this sense of imposter syndrome, like, I'm just this 25-year-old still trying to learn the ropes of education and is still working to reregulate [00:18:00] my nervous system and the aftermath of a community tragedy. And I thought about that. I'm like, why am I the person who students feel should be in front of them to confide their grief to, and how should I respond to that? And then likewise, we are living in a circumstance where, as you said before, half the country does not find value in what we do as a society, which is also just as scary. So how do you manage all of that, the nervous system, the imposter syndrome, and just the societal outlook and what you do in your every day? Yeah. So, for the imposter syndrome, I still struggle with it. I still struggle with it. I think it's, like I don't wanna say I am an imposter and I'm just pretending, but I do feel like everything is a game and we're players in the game. It's not, am I a teacher? It's how good of a teacher am I? And I think that everyone can take on that role as a teacher, right? They probably wouldn't be a very good one, but they could still be one. And so seeing it as a [00:19:00] continuum, I think has helped me understand, or at least be less harsh on myself when it comes to that judgment. But I also realized , I wanna say shortly after college, that courage is a foundational virtue. And by that I mean all other good things spring from courage. And so I must have courage to be a teacher. In order to have good outcomes. And so despite how I feel feeling afraid that I am not good enough to teach these students, or I am not equipped to guide them properly, I need to have courage that I could if I stepped up to the plate, like all great hero stories. And I've learned recently that, and by recently, I, I wanna say within the last five years, faith is also something foundational for virtue as well. And so I must believe that I can be a good educator despite having evidence. And what I've noticed is, man, I have so much evidence now, like I got, oh man, more [00:20:00] kind letters from students than I can count. I have them overflowing at a desk at work. I have them overflowing in my home office. And I'm so grateful for that. And I get so much positive feedback on Instagram. And online and just in general. But I still feel like I'm not good enough. I still feel like I have that imposter syndrome, and I notice that the faith isn't necessarily to believe in the absence of evidence, but for me it's to believe even when I don't believe the evidence in front of me. And so I see dealing with imposter syndrome as an exercise in the challenge of my courage and my faith , and so seeing it as that, it allows me to approach it as an infinite game. It's not something that I think I'll ever be at the finish line of, but I think it's something that reminds me to remain , courageous and be faithful. I love that, especially with the imposter syndrome. I also have a big notebook right here to my right in my desk drawer. That is also [00:21:00] overflowing with now seven going on eight years of notes and messages from students. And not surprised, man, especially as an adjunct. And I'll say this transparently too, as an adjunct, I'm always hustling. I'm teaching 10 classes this semester because I never know which school's gonna want me from one term to the next. And I can go from 10 classes, one term to four, the next to six thereafter. It's all on demand. And I've even been told many times, listen, this is nothing about your quality to teach. We know that you know how to teach a class. It's all about enrollment, which are things out of all of our factors. And if we don't have enrollments, then we don't need adjuncts because the full-timers come first. And I have to keep reminding myself of that because my imposter syndrome always says to me, I'm quote unquote. Just the adjunct, I'm quote unquote, not good enough to be like anyone else in the school because I had nothing. And, I have to look back at that notebook from time to time to say the evidence does not show that I'm a bad teacher. It just shows that enrollment is not [00:22:00] there in the school where they might need it. And that's something I work with as well. But in terms of how the country actually sees the work that we do, yes. How do you continue to handle that as well? Just like with all the people that you've spoken with and how they also share about their own cultures and climates and Yeah. Perceptions on that. How do you also manage how, how we're seen? Totally. I wanna like double click on that, especially as a science teacher. Yeah. Um, I deal with a lot of pushback. Some people tell me that the actual content I'm teaching in my classrooms is false. Like they shouldn't believe in, quote unquote science. I was listening to a podcast by, I forgot the author's name, but he wrote the book, chicken Soup for the Soul. Yes. Yeah. Very successful book. And he said he was denied from 144 publishers, which is I think incredible. And so, the interviewer asked him, well, how did you deal with all of that rejection? And he said, well, I've shared these stories with people and they resonated [00:23:00] and they resonated with me. And they would cry and they would get goosebumps and they would mean something to them and they would mean something to me and everyone else. And so he knew from his experience that even though these publishers didn't see the value, he knew that there was value there. And that gave him the resilience to keep pushing. And so when it comes to education, for me, I've had such a dramatic transformation in my own life because of education, because of educators I've encountered. That I cannot deny the value of it. I cannot, even if they don't see it, it is true that education is, invaluable. Honestly. There's no amount, of money or status or comfort or whatever you want to measure it. That can capture the value of education. It's truly this incredible gift. It's an amazing phenomenon. And so when I encounter people who believe that education is not important or they believe that the work I do, is no better than babysitting, I think that they just haven't seen that value for [00:24:00] themselves. They have not seen education alleviating unnecessary suffering. Like I said before, they have not seen education as the key to get anything you want out of your life. They have not seen it as an opportunity for them to build themselves into the kind of person they want to be and have the kind of lives that they want and help people become better. And so there's a phrase I think of often, not that intellect is the same as education, but there's not enough intellect to impress the ignorant. And so, I don't try and focus my attention on the people who believe what I'm doing is useless. I, I think that there are always going to be people that think that. I saw Ray Dalio, he's an incredible, economist, investor. And I saw him posting like short form videos explaining some of the lessons he's learned throughout his life, trying to help people become more financially literate. And I saw so many comments saying, who, who is this guy stupid, terrible person, this and that? I'm like, man, if, if this guy is getting hate in his field, he's at the top of his [00:25:00] field. Anyone can get hate anywhere, right? And so rather than focusing on the people who think that what I am doing is useless, I would much rather focus on the people who do value education or who do believe , in the messages that I just said earlier, so that they can have that life. And if people would like to keep themselves in a box where they think that they know how things work, they are correct, they can stay there. And that's totally fine with me. And. For those that are listening, I know that even those who tune in here are probably ones that advocate for the fact that education always helps us elevate. Yes, absolutely. No questions on that. Absolutely. And with our dialogue today, I love this conversation. We're gonna have so much content to take from this as well. What would you say is two takeaways that you want audiences to know from our dialogue? Yeah. I think that no matter what piques your interest or no matter what you want to do, I want [00:26:00] people to understand that they have permission to develop themselves, is competent, and to create expertise within themselves. I had a mentor tell me that you can be more competent than 90% of people by reading three books on a subject. Experts aren't necessarily people with degrees or have gone to fancy universities, but people who just know more than you, which means anyone can be an expert in anything. And I tell my students this often, like they're 15, but they are experts in things that I'm not experts in, and I can learn from them because they know something I don't. And so I hope that everyone can either know this for themselves or spread this message that you can develop yourself into becoming as competent as you need to be. And you do not have to rely on experts. I tell my students often that if you are educated, people cannot have authority over you. Right. I give the example of, if you are a doctor, you know more about health than someone else who doesn't. And so you can make more informed decisions. Other people cannot tell you what is true [00:27:00] otherwise. But if you are not one, you are at the mercy of the expert and you are hoping that they know what they're talking about and you're hoping that they'll be honest with you. And that's tough. And so I want people to know that they can create expertise within themselves, which gives themselves more power and more authority over their own lives. And I also believe that that will give people more confidence and extinguish fear. And I think that that will give them the ability to have the conversations they need to bring out the life they want and become the person they wanna be. Like you said, if students are doing what we model, then they will do that because you have certainly modeled the ability to have conversations with many different types of people. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. People can take expertise in their own hands and and be that guiding light for other people. Absolutely. Where can we learn more about the work that you're doing? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I'm most active right now on Instagram, uh, at Mr. Mui, M-R-M-U-K-I-I-B-I. So they [00:28:00] can follow me on, on Instagram. Feel free to message me. I spend too much time responding to everybody. And so I would love to hear from people who listen to this, especially if, you're a fan of, Dr. Weisler here. 'cause I am a big fan of you. So please, please reach out to me on Instagram. By the time this comes out, I will have either, presented a webinar or will be presenting it. And so if you're interested in learning more about, the work I'm doing, from those interviews and what I'm doing to try and help, uh, the public education system, I will be presenting a webinar, about the behavior crisis. I'm gonna be presenting three data-driven changes that reduce burnout and transform school culture. People can email me, chris@chrismckee.com. Uh, please, I would love to contact anyone who wants to talk to me. Chris is one of the most charismatic educators I've ever like. He lives a whole coast away from me. I've known him for three months virtually, and I feel like he's like part of my family. He is one of the most charismatic [00:29:00] people I know, so I, I can't wait to meet you in real life by that time can come across at the right time for us. Likewise, Joey and I feel the same about you, man. Like you, I, like I said, we've only had conversations virtually, but I feel like you're a very good friend of mine and I've, and I've known you for a long time, and likewise, I'm grateful to have met you and I know we're gonna be friends for life. Definitely. And shout out to the Positive Growth Lounge and Phil for helping form Oh yeah. This connection. And Phil is someone who both of us feel equally connected to as well. So Chris, thank you so much for reminding us that learning is ultimately an act of self-trust and willingness and not about perfection. And your clarity on discipline, identity and agency gives all of us a fresh way to think about growth. And to everyone listening, I hope that our conversations have nudged you to rethink that habits and stories are shape how we show up. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you for joining us on the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you [00:30:00] listen to podcasts and stay connected with us on the at Classroom Narratives podcast over Instagram and Facebook. Remember, together we can transform our scars into stars and education, one conversation at a time.