Lisa Kay: [00:00:00] we've got to recognize our own traumas and work through and heal those , before we implement and try to engage in trauma-informed interventions I think a lot of educators naturally, , wanna help., And we can't always help in the ways we'd like to based on the position that we're in a classroom.,

Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. The space for Education Meets Resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode we dive deep into the personal stories of educators, students, leaders, and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities within modern education.

Whether you're just starting your teaching journey or are a seasoned professional looking for inspiration, we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, and build trauma-informed communities within our schools. Now, let's take a seat [00:01:00] at the front of the classroom as we get started.

Joey: Welcome back to the podcast where today I'm speaking with Dr.

Lisa Kay, board certified art therapist, who is a leading voice at the intersection of art education, art therapy, and community healing. 

She's a professor and chair of art education and community art practices through Temple University's Department of Art Education, , 

Joey: Where she brings together her identities as an artist, a researcher, an educator and board certified art therapist.

Now across her career, Dr. Kay has explored how art making supports children, adolescents, and even adults who have experienced adversity and how everyday classrooms can become spaces of repair for that. Her work seeks to examine how resiliency, narrative art, trauma responsive teaching, and the psychology of child art all work to become both pedagogy and qualitative research.

She's also the author of Therapeutic Approaches in Art Education 

as well as

Joey: , Restorative [00:02:00] Practices in Education Through the Arts. And she's also a Fulbright Scholar at 2021, distinguished Fellow of the National Art Education Association and the recipient of multiple different awards and art practices.

And her scholarship works to remind us that teachers are not therapists, but the classroom can be a site of therapeutic possibility, a sight of connection, and a sight of hope, especially when the arts are there to lead the way. So Lisa, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us today. 

Lisa Kay: Thank you so much, Joey, for that lovely, lovely introduction.

It's always, humbling to hear someone else, talk about your work. 

Joey: Absolutely. And that's why it's such an honor to have you with us. Thank you. Thank you. So let's start from where we began with our pre-talk and we were connected from the Tracy Malloy a couple weeks ago. Shout out to Tracy for putting us in touch.

And when we were speaking a couple weeks back, we had a very deep conversation that reminded me of the work that Dr. Adam Wolfsdorf is doing on the therapeutic classroom [00:03:00] space where we're trying to understand the differences between a therapeutic classroom and a space of therapy and there's some differences there that Lisa's gonna take the driver's seat and talk to us about that.

So how can we distinct as educators, therapeutic classrooms and spaces of therapy, and why does this matter for student safety, our own ethics as teachers, and the outcomes from all of that. 

Lisa Kay: Great question, Joey., Therapeutic classroom can be a setting, , that's created intentionally , it could be the lighting, the furniture arrangement to invite a sense of comfort and trust and an atmosphere that's conducive for learning.

But more than that, a therapeutic classroom, there can be consistent, clear messages and expectations posted with reasonable consequences., We can strive for, predictability, provide a private cozy space , just to get away to [00:04:00] limit stimulation. I go into classrooms all the time where there's so much going on both interpersonally and then just

stuff in the spaces. , We can also create a calming environment with soothing sound, if that seems appropriate , and another thing I thought about is if we create. I know what I call a no judgment zone. A brave space. Yes , where all voices are welcomed and valued, and students' agency is promoted.

So in contrast, a space for therapy can be a physical room or a location where therapy takes place , this is a confidential space where a therapist and client meet. It could also be where the therapist and a group of clients or patients or students meet . It might look very similar to a therapeutic classroom, however, the goal of therapy is much different than what's going on in the [00:05:00] classroom. This space can be one where there's empathy, like the classroom, there can be compassionate listening and acceptance , but this is a place where someone is coming particularly for treatment , a particular conflict, a problem that they need addressed. And the goal or outcome is therapeutic growth, therapeutic change, some sort of resolution.

So that's a difference between a therapeutic classroom and a space for therapy. And I feel like this matters , because it would be unethical for, educators, to engage in therapy. It's not within their scope of practice. And this is something I talked to pre-service art teachers and in-service art teachers,, all the time.

They often, and we may have talked about this, use the term art therapy and therapeutic art interchangeably, like, oh yeah, I'm doing art therapy in the classroom. Well, you're not because in, art therapy or any kind of therapy is done by a [00:06:00] credentialed, mental health practitioner, that is educated and trained in counseling techniques.,

So there's the difference in training in our code of ethics, is different. It's sort of like, if we get a cut or a wound , we can put a bandaid on it and, it can heal, right? , But if it's deeper in a more serious wound, you need someone, to treat that wound or that injury like a doctor.

So there are these overlaps and people talk about them all the time, but the spaces are different. Hope that helps to answer that question. 

Joey: It does. And with that question we're looking to see what is the space, all of that between the therapeutic classroom and the space of therapy.

Now that we live, especially in these very uncertain times within our cultures, where the classroom is a space of adversity and a space of just confusion at times. Mm-hmm. We have [00:07:00] urban, rural, suburban, marginalized, unsupported students from all different walks, all convening and the same spaces on a daily basis.

How can teachers build classroom practices that can feel therapeutic for students while still navigating the spectrum, even whether they're not trained as clinicians. So we've already established, mm-hmm. What is the therapeutic classroom all about? Right now? Let's talk about how do we put that into practice as educators safely?

Well. 

Lisa Kay: I, I kind of think about this, that in this way, that good teaching is good teaching. So there are like four areas that I think are important. Predictability, flexibility, connection, and empowerment. Now, I can talk a little bit about these, but I feel like these four aspects, are critical for good teaching and critical , in a therapeutic classroom as well. We just talked a little bit about the importance of routines and expectations. So when students come in the classroom, they know [00:08:00] this is the structure. You know, we're gonna start with a warmup. We're gonna start with a check-in. , Here's the lesson.

We're gonna wrap up. And, you know, have some final concluding thoughts. Maybe review, what we just did, and what we're gonna do next week or next class. So, that's that predictable routine, whatever that is. , Flexibility. I, I feel like this is really important and I don't see this as much in K through 12 classrooms because of the rigid curriculum.

Yes. 

Lisa Kay: But there just needs to be this flexibility and willingness to change and negotiate with students. If here's the assignment and there's a, a different approach or a different idea where they wanna take it. You know, let's negotiate that a little bit. And it's hard when you've got 30 plus students in a classroom to be flexible and negotiate everyone, but if we do build in , some flexibility and just our willingness to have a conversation [00:09:00] about that and give students choices, I think that's

good teaching and that's part of the therapeutic classroom. Connection is the next one. Building relationships,, being patient, compassionate , showing kindness, being positive for reframing negative situations in a positive way , and practicing empathy. Both for ourselves and also for our students.

And then finally, is a sense of empowerment. Is it, autonomy giving students the autonomy to make choices and exert control over their decisions? And that can be as simple as, I mean in art education, we talk about choice, based art education. , You can meet the same end, but here's some different , ways to get there.

So given students that option, I think really creates this sense of agency that is necessary in a therapeutic classroom, but also in good teaching 

Joey: [00:10:00] practice. Agreed. And I love those four parts that you talk about because in my classroom I, I, it's a practice I've done since maybe 20 21, 20 22, which was my third and fourth year of teaching, and I started to really build on that

now I was doing it, but I didn't have a name for it, and it was just being flexible and I was flexible by giving students choices. Like in my writing class, I would come in and I would say,. If you've read today, everyone's gonna sit in the circle today. That's the only thing that's not a choice. You must sit facing everybody in the circle.

So if you can all look at each other while we speak, but from there you get to choose what you wanna speak about, what you wanna speak on. I have a choice menu of four different writing assignments in this composition class. Some are very, very touchy feely in your personal connections to the characters in the text.

Some are much more academic in terms of you are doing a comprehensive response to the reading if you're more comfortable doing one [00:11:00] versus the other, however you wanna make the connection, that's your choice. And I'm flexible to give you this choice menu to help you make those choices, to do two out of the four assignments on this menu.

And I take it further and I say, if you actually participate during our circle discussions, you don't have to do any of the writing. You can just be there and be present and talk it through with us, and you will be exempt from having to go home and write it out. So they have so much agency. And I love how you say negotiate in the college classroom or even in K 12 as well, because yes, at the college classroom I can do that, but when I had standards to meet in K 12, it is harder.

But I think when we negotiate learning, that's definitely where the multiple intelligences can come into play, where we allow, just 

thinking about that. Yep. Mm-hmm. 

Joey: We allow students their own way of learning to still approach that outcome, but it is harder to kind of sneak in that little four part choice menu in the K 12 class for sure.

But I think all of that, as you said, helps students feel like they are connecting with us as a facilitator [00:12:00] and building that partnership to help them reach their goals. So. That's how I run the writing classroom. But I wanna hear more about what we're doing with art. And so what does art offer, both general and in the sense of education , especially in moments of stress, overwhelmingness and dysregulation that traditional verbal and even writing processes can't do for us?

Lisa Kay: So the arts,, I think , are unique in that they give us a way, or art making gives us a way to channel emotions, distress,, manage frustrations, can also provide a cathartic experience,, a way to just get things out. And I, I would imagine in , creative writing, it's the , same thing. The words pour out, on the page, just like

the images, pour out, on a canvas or , on a piece of drawing paper,, with students who, are experiencing a lot of stress and overwhelm and dysregulation as you mentioned, [00:13:00] the arts can provide, hope. I think they can provide a sense of validation , that they may not experience in other areas of their lives., Think from a art education perspective, there are multiple solutions. There answers, perspectives. There's no right or wrong. In other words, there are no mistakes, although some kids through the visual arts feel like. If I haven't had a positive experience in art in my life, or someone told me, , that didn't look like a giraffe.

If you were drawing a giraffe or it didn't look like what you were trying to put on paper, , you shut down. And one of the things I talk to students about a lot, it's like, you know, if you sat down at a piano and you were gonna play a symphony, you'd have to practice before you could play it the first time.

Students feel like they. Got to be able to make it right the first time they even try. , But try to [00:14:00] promote this idea that there's no one way. There's certain techniques and there's certain solutions that if you use materials a certain way, you'll get this result. But in the big picture, you know, it's your way.

There are no mistakes., The other thing I wanted to mention is that the arts, I feel like have this potential to activate the body and stimulate the imagination that can help students restore a sense of worth , like energy, connection.. Self-expression and mastery over a particular situation, just how they, portray it on paper or through a collage or in a sculptural form.

So I think that those are some of the ways that are really valuable. , In the art making process., The other thing I think is really important, and this comes from a therapeutic orientation, but the art can provide a metaphor container. [00:15:00] And by that I mean a place to hold the stress, hold, the overwhelm.

I had kids in an, art therapy classroom in a psychosocial school and I would have kids make worry boxes and they would decorate 'em and they would put 'em somewhere in the room, and then when they had worries, they could just draw 'em on a piece of paper or they could write something out and put it in their worry box and put the top on it.

Okay, so they get it out, contain it and put it , somewhere else. So, that's what I mean by a metaphoric, container. It's a holder or the process or the emotions that they're feeling. 

Joey: I wanted to think about how we also see restorative art practices that might be functioning differently from trauma specific interventions.

So for example, what can we achieve using art that sometimes therapy cannot achieve and vice versa. And how do we separate art from trauma? And something else I've been [00:16:00] thinking about as well is when you became a certified art therapist, what was that process like, for you as the faculty member, and what are some steps and some moments in your training that really stuck out to you and made you feel equipped to do the work that you do?

Lisa Kay: Lots of questions there I gotta put down Yes. No, sorry to, 

Joey: sorry to get that all in one. 

Lisa Kay: No, no, that's, that's okay. Um, so you were, you were curious about restorative practices Yeah. And sort of what that entails or encompasses. Yes, and then you wanted. Well, let's, let's start there. 

Joey: Let's start there.

Lisa Kay: Yeah. So, restorative art practices , provide what I call a framework for freedom and creative expression,, that emphasizes strengths and offers choices., I think in this particular method, students are viewed as artists. They're also creators of their own life and kind of circles back to what we just talked [00:17:00] about , their own life choices.

Can also support in building relationships , these practices I feel like have the potential to be healing because they can instill hope and enhance personal growth and confidence, which therapy also does. However, in a therapeutic art classroom that uses a restorative practice approach, these are some of the potentials that the arts can offer. Juxtaposing that with being trauma informed, I know, your work and research and your dissertation focused on trauma informed spaces, and, we need as educators to understand and be sympathetic to the behavioral responses that are related to trauma that people may exhibit and interact in ways that support people that lived through trauma. , And we can apply that knowledge about symptoms and behaviors and responses [00:18:00] associated with that and integrate that into our best practices and approaches to teaching that we've also talked about. But one of the things I think it's really critical for us to understand when we talk about trauma informed trauma and sensitive practices

is that we've got to recognize our own traumas and work through and heal those , before we implement and try to engage in trauma-informed interventions I believe , in the classroom., I think a lot of educators naturally, , wanna help., And we can't always help in the ways we'd like to based on the position that we're in a classroom., But certainly with therapists, we've got to deal with some of our own pain. And I feel like as educators, we need to also, because sometimes we could find ourselves in situations where , we're going too [00:19:00] deep and we don't know how to get out,, of that particular situation. We need to know when we need to call in, maybe in a school, the school counselor, or we need to call, make referrals to an outside psychologist.

Or if a student is really engaged in a creative arts process that perhaps we can collaborate and team, with an art therapist and develop some interventions in the classroom together.

Joey: I love the direction that we're going with that. And I'm also thinking about, you talk about teachers getting themselves into situations where they need to pull back and understand where they can get help. And I'm sure that many of us as educators deeply resonate with that, especially again with the state of our world and the state of our students and trying to keep all of them as a collective safe for now.

And I wonder. A couple things. I wonder about that phenomenon where teachers are trying to draw [00:20:00] those boundaries. And I'm also curious when it does happen that someone is able to become a certified therapist, what are some different strategies that, for example, the art therapist is equipped with that the general classroom teacher is not?

Lisa Kay: Well , one of the things in training to become, an art therapist, you do. It's probably at least four, like maybe two internships, two practicums, , you're in a clinical supervision while you're in training that continues

once you've graduated and you're accumulating. I believe now it's a thousand hours of supervised training before you can become, credentialed. So , there's a lot of clinical training, and this even continues once you're out,, you're still in supervision because

we hear a lot of people's pain, we [00:21:00] hear a lot of traumatic stories. We witness and we experience and we have to learn how to draw those boundaries. Otherwise we're gonna absorb all of that and take it in and it will be really detrimental , to our health.

Making our own artwork is something really valuable to do.

And after a tough session or after a tough day or a difficult week, making art about it, journaling about it , processing it, talking to trusted colleagues about it,, those are all really useful tools, and those are some tools that I do share with my pre-service art teachers. Something I did in my dissertation research,, was what I call visual notes and their little four by six note cards that I would create artwork and then write a reflection about it.

And it was after I was observing [00:22:00] in several classrooms, , and so I used it as a research tool, but I feel like it's something really helpful for art educators and other educators who hear a lot of stories and what do I do with this? And so being able to draw it, reflect on it, and we talk about it in class and students, can share their experiences.

But , it's a great process that,, co-op teachers and students can do together. I could imagine, non-art educators or non-artist, creating together and talking about these difficult situations that there are no answers and some of the things we're experiencing today in our global culture and society.

. I don't have the answers to some of these situations, and, but what I do know is that by creating together and talking about it, , it's kind of like that container. You can put it in a [00:23:00] drawing, you can write it out and reflect about it, and it kind of holds the emotions and it gets it out of us onto paper.

Joey: . So togetherness is certainly a way for groups of people to find a space of central recovery altogether. And that leads me to one of my last questions for the day is, what would you say is the difference between an art facilitator and an art therapist? How are their approaches different and how can the facilitator acknowledge their boundaries in order to keep within their own territory?

Lisa Kay: It's a tricky, important question and tricky one. The first thing that, well, a couple things that, come to mind for me. Tracy Malloy certainly is an art facilitator. She will say she's not a therapist. Yes. She consults with and works with therapist and psychologist because she knows what her role is , as an artist, working with people who've experienced a wide range of [00:24:00] adversity and trauma and tragedies in their lives.

, The other thing that came to mind just was something I've been thinking about and writing about because we have an undergrad art therapy program and we're soon to have a graduate art therapy program at Temple University. I'm really thrilled that we're launching the grad program, and so our undergrads

unless they have a master's degree, they cannot call themselves an art therapist. They don't have the education and they cannot practice art therapy. And it's a really important distinction because , their degree says art therapy, and yet. They're not art therapists, but we talk about what you can do is be a facilitator of therapeutic art.

, We talked about the therapeutic classroom. We talked about different aspects that can be therapeutic. It might be how you lay out materials, and you can be with people and make art, with people, but you're not delving deeper into [00:25:00] the meaning of the images.

You're not doing an analysis or an interpretation,, with and for your clients. And there's not the same goal of therapeutic change. It might be we're coming together to make work about a particular topic or situation or event, but it is not therapy and you're not a therapist. 

Joey: Does that make sense?

It does. Yes, it does. It, it is like when I'm the writing teacher, I can facilitate students to write about characters who they connect with in books, and those characters could be going through some very, very troubling circumstances. Mm-hmm. So I can facilitate the writing about that, but I'm not equipped to respond to them and start a class-wide conversation in front of everybody.

If all of a sudden they have really deep troubling feelings of depression, suicide, sexuality that might stem from how they connect to those characters, that is the job for the therapist. And it sounds like with art, those boundaries are the same. [00:26:00] 

Lisa Kay: They, they certainly are, whether it's the art classroom, whether it's a, an aspiring art therapist who's, really studying art and studying counseling and studying, the foundations of art therapy and wants to , go on to, to practice.

So yeah, there, there is a difference. , Art by nature, there are some healing components,, in the making of art.

So that's maybe what people 

Joey: are responding to. Absolutely. The whole kinesthetic experience. 

Mm-hmm. And 

Joey: I think choosing our words carefully as educators also makes a difference, because I've started to come into a classroom and I've introduced myself as the classroom facilitator because that's exactly how I see myself.

I'm the person to give the prompts and push the discussion, but I'm not there to do a deep dive into how they interpret the questions, should it bring up their personal feelings. 

Lisa Kay: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. 

Joey: So Lisa, this has been a super productive conversation so far. Do you have any thoughts for our listeners that we haven't touched on yet that you wanted to, or any major takeaways that you [00:27:00] feel they should be gaining from our dialogue? 

Lisa Kay: Oh gosh. Let me think. What could be, I guess one thing. We didn't really talk about this, but I just wanted to share a couple things that, I've written about in school Arts Magazine.

Yeah. 

Lisa Kay: One of them is called, I titled it Stress de-Stress Finding Order Out of Chaos. And the other one is called Scribble It Out. And these are two exercises, that can be brought into the classroom, certainly in adapted to different age groups. But the finding order out of chaos is I give students newspapers and, magazines and we actually

tear it up and rip it up, I play some music that seems, to promote kind of this attention emotion . I think one song I used to use was Billy Joel's pressure. Okay. Okay. And. How often are we [00:28:00] told to rip up things, but it just feels really good to tear things. And then we have this big pile of chaotic mess.

And then from that we've got to create some order and organization. So we do some integrative collages. Sometimes we work collaboratively and create a de-stress box and then , take those torn pieces and. Put 'em back together. So that's what that one is, is think about your stresses.

Listen to this music , rip the paper and then, but we have to clean up our mess and put things back to order in order. . And the scribble it out is, I have big mural paper. And I play some different music, intense music,, and just encourage people to scribble and with a marker or a crayon in each hand and kind of do some bilateral scribbling.

And we have this whole mess of scribbled lines all over the paper. And then I give everyone a piece of paper with a [00:29:00] circle. On it, and I ask 'em to pick two colors out of the scribble and put a dot on the middle, in the middle of their paper and start to create a balance symmetrical design that radiates out from the center to the edges of the circle.

And we talk about just the contrast of when things are. Feel like they're outta control, like the scribble, and then how we can contain things and create a more calming center. So those are some different exercises that I teach teachers that to use in the classroom that I've drawn from my therapy practice.

But there, there are things that have therapeutic value, however, they're not therapy

Joey: I love that. Love that. And hopefully we can continue to keep the conversation going so others can celebrate and honor the work as you progress it. Thank 

Lisa Kay: you, Joey. I appreciate that. 

Joey: Absolutely. Well, big thanks to Dr.

Lisa Kay joining us today to talk [00:30:00] about those differences in art therapy and art education, and how all of us can work to come together to facilitate better and safer classroom spaces, for all who are involved. Lisa, thank you again for joining us. 

Lisa Kay: You're welcome. Thank you, Joey .

Thank you for joining us on the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts and stay connected with us on the at Classroom Narratives podcast over Instagram and Facebook.

Remember, together we can transform our scars into stars and education, one conversation at a time