Susan B Neuman: [00:00:00] teaching is not just about teaching skills, it's about falling in love with your students and recognizing that, you have their future, in your grasp. Absolutely. And what you do and what you say to the children can really open up learning or close it down. Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. The space for Education Meets Resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode we dive deep into the personal stories of educators, students, leaders, and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities within modern education. Whether you're just starting your teaching journey or are a seasoned professional looking for inspiration, we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, and build trauma-informed communities within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at the front of the classroom as we get started. Welcome to today's conversation, everyone, where today I'm [00:01:00] so excited to be joined by Dr. Susan B. Newman, who is a professor of childhood education and literacy development at New York University, and she's also the former US Assistant Secretary for elementary and secondary education from 2001 to 2003. Throughout her career, Dr. Newman has helped define what effective early literacy looks like from classrooms to national policy, and she's led initiatives such as early reading first, and the Early Childhood Educator Professional Development program, she's also oversaw Title One implementation Under No Child Left Behind, and has continually championed access to quality learning for all children. Her research and leadership have guided teachers, policymakers, and families alike shaping how we think about early learning and educational equality through the lens of literacy. Dr. Newman, it's an honor to welcome to the Classroom Narrative Podcast. Thank you for joining us Susan B Neuman: Well, thank you. [00:02:00] It's it. What an intro. Joey: Thank you for that. So Dr. Newman and I connected in person within the month because she was a keynote speaker for the World Literacy Foundation at their panel on how is the USA tracking the improvements in foundational literacy skills for young people back at the end of September in New York City. And it really led me to think about the state of literacy in America. And Dr. Newman's keynote was really trying to emphasize what shapes literacy and how that looks for us now. So let's start from there, Susan. And because you've had the opportunity to see literacy exist from all different angles as a researcher, policymaker, and a teacher educator. What would you say when you reflect on that journey in the field that makes you most hopeful and even most questioning about the state of literacy in America as we see it currently? Susan B Neuman: Well, I, I would say that one of the things that has troubled me is, [00:03:00] the pendulum swings of literacy development and how it has often become politicized, terribly so. And as you mentioned, I've always worked with low income children, children who are so capable to learn , but unfortunately, you're not getting the kind of instruction they need. And so when I hear those pendulum swings and the arguments about literacy, it really troubles me because I know that there is a science of literacy, that we do know what children need and let's get on with it and stop going back and forth. So if you say to me what excites me now, I think the science of literacy and the effort to really move the field in terms of what do we know in the research, and then how do we begin to implement that successfully in the classroom. And that really excites me, and I'm hoping that we stay on that trajectory. It's important. Joey: [00:04:00] Mm-hmm. And when we talk about the science of literacy, what are some things that we know but are still struggling as a system to really put into practice? Susan B Neuman: So I think what we know are the skills that children will need to learn in order to be successful readers. I think there is now a robust body of literature that says how to do that. But one of the things I've recognized and most recently continue to recognize is the implementation of that science of literacy is much more difficult than we ever envisioned it to be because we have children of great diversity. Mm-hmm. In terms of the knowledge and skills they come to class, and how to take those wonderful differentiations or differences among our unique students and actually build a coherent program that's not easy. Joey: [00:05:00] Right. Absolutely. I was just looking at an Instagram page before our conversation took place, and the account was from Ageless Literature. And this quote was posted two days ago, so two days ago from today was October 14th, 2025. And what it says in this post that they shared is that back in the 1980s, 60% of American teenagers read for pleasure every day. And now that number in 2025 is just under 20%. And because of that, nearly half of adults finished fewer than four books a year, and currently we are seeing a civilization that really is not reading. And Susan, I think that also echoes what you mentioned in your keynote as well back in September at our summit, that we're building a society that is really steering away from books, which is the, essentially the backbone to our culture, and we're abandoning. What literacy means. So what would you say it actually means for us to raise a [00:06:00] society that's literate and what does literacy look like? Susan B Neuman: Well, I think you raise a wonderful set of points, people are not reading, , that, that's clear. And , reading for pleasure has gone way down., The thought for some people is that well, students would move to eBooks , and they'd be interested in eBooks. That hasn't happened. If you look at the ebook , market, it's very, very small. So why I think we need to really reflect on why people are not reading, and I think it really begins in the very early years, we make it terribly boring for children., If you go into the average class, sometimes you wanna snooze., You think about their wonderful energy, the young children's energy and what they're interested in, and we don't often use literacy enough to really galvanize it and engage that interest. They come to school so eager to learn. [00:07:00] And what we often do is we ignore that, um, that motivation, that internal motivation to learn, and we just end up into very routinized kind of instruction. And I think that's where it begins, that children, if you ask teenagers, why don't you read? They'll say it's boring. , I, I don't think it, it's fun. Um, uh, my friends aren't reading so, uh, you know, I have no one to talk to about reading. So it's not always just an individual thing. It's something that groups of people come together and talk about their reading, and that's not happening. And I think, the reason it's not happening, other than social media and , technology and screen media and all those other factors, I think it is just because they haven't seen the purpose for reading very, very early on. Joey: You reminded me of when I was teaching eighth grade ELA back in 2019 and those students normally [00:08:00] only read when it was time to do their i-Ready and when they were doing their i-Ready, which is the software that is more of like a test preparatory program, the students typically felt like they were looking at reading for the purpose of meeting a standard or making a grade. And if they mis comprehended something where iReady would mark it wrong, now reading is a form of punishment, right? And to a student that's painful to associate reading with punishment and not even growth, but standards. Right. And I think that's another reason why students deter from reading for pleasure because in their minds, they're still having trouble making that distinction between pleasure and education. Like education in the forms of, again, making that grade. Right. And so when you're also working with your students in the literacy education programs, some of the students you're working with now have also been in the system at the time that you were at the federal level making [00:09:00] policies back in '01 through '03. Right. And what would you say is a way that those students would define literacy? And , as students now coming into a program to teach literacy, what made it matter for them and how are they willing to put those different practices into play for their future students and future Americans? Susan B Neuman: Well, I, I think it, it's actually quite complicated, so I'll give you an example. , I'll be teaching my class in higher education. I teach a class in early childhood, early literacy. I also teach it another class, of, , students in the, uh, who are going to be teaching in elementary grades. And, , I notice two things, actually. One, a lack of passion. Believe it or not, , I got into education because I actually believed I wanted to really make a difference for low income children. I was disturbed and horrified by the effects of poverty and what poverty does to [00:10:00] children's motivation and engagement and learning, and I. I sometimes don't feel that, , my students recognize how they can make an enormous difference in a child's life,, by being a wonderful teacher. Right, right. Absolutely. And, , I. I worry that they don't see a sense of urgency. Uh, which I think is absolutely critical, , early in life. So teaching is not just about teaching skills, it's about falling in love with your students and recognizing that, you have their future, in your grasp. Absolutely. And what you do and what you say to the children can really open up learning or close it down. Joey: Absolutely. Susan B Neuman: Yeah, and Joey: I, I've shouted this out on several of my podcasts here where I've said that learning really does take place at the base of the pyramid. And I had the best kindergarten teacher, Anne Walner, that the world could have ever asked for because she personified language, she had us write our [00:11:00] own stories. And I'm sitting there journaling every single day in kindergarten. And it's no wonder with that foundation. I grew up to get a PhD in English and become a writer. Exactly. and I love how in your keynote. Last month that you were talking about the way that literacy does work for students at young ages, for example, having literacy available to communities like in laundromats and in centers where students can be playing with different toys that are reading based while they're waiting in a doctor's office, for example. Susan B Neuman: So exactly Joey: how do we form a community that is literate and what makes it that way? Susan B Neuman: Right. I think that you hit on a, a very important point that I tried to emphasize, and that is often we focus on parent-child interaction, but actually you and I are very influenced by our community. It's not just,, an immediate connection between parent and child. It's the community that we live in that we pass every single day. So. That community [00:12:00] has a certain coercive effect on what we do. So when we are in a community where there's a lot of print, for example, we have a tendency to pick up some print. It's just a natural thing. It's, we call it physical proximity. There's a physical proximity. Print is nearby, we're going to pick it up and use it, or we're going to notice it, or we're going to talk to someone about something that's related to print. So I think that we need to take a more community orientation. When we think about literacy, one of the things I ask my students to do when they first go to a school is walk the community. Understand it. Who's in it?, Where are the hidden gardens in the community? Where, is the library? How could we begin to infuse and understand our children better by understanding where they live and how they live? And I think it's, not [00:13:00] just about print all the time, it's about engaging people in activities that involved a great deal of talk. So I talked a, a fair amount about literacy in the laundromat, and the reason I got interested in laundromats was because I began to understand where children go on the weekends. You know, you might think they, oh, are going to the museum. They're not. They're sitting in the laundromat. Next to their parent, waiting for that laundry to be done. So that's an opportunity that we can use and when they go to the grocery store, that's another opportunity we can use to engage children in language, in print, and understanding the purposes of our print. It's not just about learning to read, it's about being able to sort and pattern, it's being able to find the cheapest , cereal. , Yes. It's about really seeing the purposes of why you want to learn to read. Joey: [00:14:00] So in a way, it's about finding literacy existing in the everyday. Susan B Neuman: Exactly. Exactly. Joey: So in thinking about that, I wanted to think about also how we can foundation that for lifelong success. So what would you say in continuing that conversation are meaningful ways that schools and communities, rather teachers from the communities can really set those foundations in early years. So once they go out into the community, they see what's out there, how can they then bring that back into their classroom to strengthen that bond between both ends? Susan B Neuman: Well, you know, one of the things we were talking about in my class yesterday is that we were thinking that we always think about literacy as a cognitive skill, but it is a social skill and it is a, a skill that involves, the child's whole body whole person. And one of the things that we often forget is motivation and [00:15:00] motivating kids to learn. So , what the teacher could do very effectively is understand the community and bring the community into the school. So what kinds of, uh, experts are in that community? How can they begin to bring these people in , and engage children? And engage these experts in understanding about schools and the connection between school and community. How can they bring some of the culture and linguistic practices in that community to the school and recognizing that it's, a complete connection. It has to be a complete connection. As I'm talking, I'm thinking of a conversation that we had last night with my students and I was trying to understand how I could begin to better understand multilingual learners. Yes. And my students were telling me very effectively how they trans language [00:16:00] all the time. Mm-hmm. And I was thinking, we don't take advantage of Translanguaging in our classrooms, how children often go from English to Spanish, English to Chinese, and integrate these language skills effortlessly. Yes. And I'm just learning about that because I'm trying to learn more about the community and bring that into my teaching, and I think that is absolutely essential. Joey: Absolutely. I think it's really easy for teachers to say, oh, the student is developing in their English and it's not where it needs to be. But what they don't realize is that they're proficient in a different language and they're truly a bilingual learner, and we don't acknowledge that gifted skill that they carry enough in the way that we approach literacy and communication within our K 12 systems. Susan B Neuman: Oh, absolutely. And not only that, ensuring that they maintain that multilingualism when they are learning, it should be an additive effect, not a [00:17:00] subtractive. And I think a lot of times we send the message that's subtractive, learn English. I don't care what happens to your other language. Mm-hmm. But really we want our kids to, you know, I don't have a second language and I wish I did. Joey: Mm-hmm. It's like learn English or else. 'cause I think if I was 12 years old or 10 years old, and I went to a totally different part of the globe to try and get my education there, how complicated and daunting that must be. Right? So the fact that these students are able to pick up a part of the culture in their new space here in our classrooms, we don't do enough to make them feel welcome, is my personal belief. And I think by meeting them halfway with stories. That's the way to make them feel more connected. I was actually on the podcast with Jamie Marrich, who says is that we're not made of atoms in society. In truth, we're made of stories and those stories are what bridges together build those, bonds that we all share as a collective. [00:18:00] Susan B Neuman: That's right. Beautiful. Joey: I think that leads me to also think about the role that teachers do play, where sometimes they do feel like their hands are tied, where they have a curriculum map. I know when I taught K 12 that was handed a curriculum map, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, had to look like that. And if I fell behind, that was on me. I got a slap on the wrist and I really needed to make sure that I was on the same page, literally the exact same page as every other colleague teacher might prep as I was. And for educators that really feel removed from decisions within the community or within the classroom or within the state or even the federal level. It's still clear that these policies shape what they're supposed to do, but sometimes they're out of touch with why they have do it, because they're not in the room, or they can actually make these things come and happen. So. What would you say is a way to continue building bridges and communicates between researchers, [00:19:00] policy makers, those experts and teachers too? Make literacy work for the student? Susan B Neuman: Well, I think we don't do enough of that, frankly. Um, really, uh, communicate across scholars, educators, um, people on the ground working with children. But here's the tension , we are a huge system no matter where we are , and we need to have some structure. There is absolutely some need for structure. So in other words, one of the things that I argued , even when I was an assistant secretary, is that I should be able to go into, a school and go into one second grade and see instruction, and I should go into another second grade and see about the same kind of instruction. There has to be consistency because otherwise children are not getting a fair chance. Some would get a great teacher and some would not. So consistency is absolutely imperative in my [00:20:00] view. And it's also imperative because many of our children will move from, , school to school. And so we need to have , a plan that provides a consistent and continuous instruction for our children. At the same time, we've got to recognize that every single classroom is gonna be different, and the diversity within our classroom is huge. And so how do we help teachers say, take a curriculum and create what I call a structured adaptation? In other words. We need our administrators and our leaders to begin to say, what are some of the non-negotiables? What are some of the things we want you to do every day that are really critical for children to be able to learn? And then what are the flexible processes. What are the things that you know, because you are an expert in your classroom, what do you need to [00:21:00] do in order to make that happen for children? So, , recognizing that following a plan like you described with, you know, page requirements and everything is not good practice. It's not good practice, but we need some consistency and some flexibility to recognize that we have a great diversity of needs for our children and a great diversity of skills for many of our children. And sometimes I wish. I will tell you honestly, I remember this was a great story., This was when I was assistant secretary and I was head of Title one, which is our largest program for high poverty children, and I met someone who was experiencing their 90th birthday and. I said, oh, we should have a party. And they, the people in the Department of Education said, no, no, no. We don't want to , admit [00:22:00] that we have people who are overseeing education, who have been outside of the field of education and outside of the classroom for that many years. Interesting. So many of our policy makers. Need to go back to the classroom and need to really understand what instruction and what teaching really looks like. Our policies would be so much better if they did that. Joey: I completely agree. And something else I've said in a couple different podcasts is that I am somebody who favors standards. I favor having standards in my day. I absolutely agree that by the end of the semester, I need to hit on these objectives through my class. And when teaching middle school, we all need to be reading the telltale hearts from October 1st through 15th, but. Where the line feels like it's drawn for me is when I'm now told exactly how to teach the telltale hearts from October 1st to 15th. Because I am not a standard teacher. [00:23:00] I do not teach standard students, and we all have different ways, like we said about diversity to make those needs all come together in our classrooms to maximize the outcomes we're looking for with our students. Susan B Neuman: That's right. Exactly. Joey: And, and thinking about that, since you've mentored countless teachers and leaders before in decades of literacy reform, what do you think distinguishes educators who make lasting impacts on communities? We touched about that a little bit earlier and I wanna hear a little bit more about that as well. Susan B Neuman: What makes a lasting impact? Joey: Yes, Susan B Neuman: I think there are a few things. I think, , one, it's getting to know the students, and really understanding , students. I think we're in a period of great competitiveness. We're always talking about the gap. Right? Yes. And we're always focusing about narrowing the gap, but what if we said, I want to take each student and I want to improve their [00:24:00] skills to the degree that I can. All right? Mm-hmm. And recognize that every child is unique and I'm going to engage that child broadly and help that child self-actualize to the degree that that child is able. What if we stop being so competitive in insisting that children reach a certain point to reach a certain standard and begin to look at children more carefully and thoughtfully? When I think of the people I like the most. I think of character often. I don't necessarily always think, oh gosh, that person, was top in the class. I think about their character. I think about their, social emotional skills. I think about their empathy. I think about them as a whole person and I think we've lost that, frankly. , In our goal to focus so specifically only on skills. [00:25:00] And so that's what I would see would really make a difference. A teacher who recognizes that a child is a child and, they're very multifaceted and multidimensional and take that child in their interests and, really help them , self-actualize and, and become the person they want to be. Absolutely. Joey: And to me that sounds like a very different kind of literacy that comes from the teacher as well. I know that when I was teaching, and I, I've told this story a couple times as well on the show, when I was teaching that same 2019 eighth grade class, we were looking at Of Mice and Men. I was having them talk about different ways that in order to connect to the characters, how many of them have felt like that they had been an outsider before, and the responses that they offered me stemmed from the gap that we spoke about where in this gifted, high achieving class, I was kind of on the opposite end around working with high achieving students in a really well off district, [00:26:00] but these students I saw had more problems than anyone I've ever seen because they saw education as entitlement. Their parents saw it that way rather. And in working to make their way through middle school, the amount of competition that they were dealing with was obscene for the demands of a 12-year-old. They were burning out., Some of them were suicidal, they had severe depression, and since I had opened Pandora's Box, they're now coming to me to ask about how to handle those different emotions. So when it comes to understanding ways to close that gap, when it comes to just like the teacher being literate about the social and emotional in the classroom space, how can teachers acknowledge the whole child without crossing the line of breaking the standards that way? Susan B Neuman: Yeah. Well, it's a good question. And when do you know that this is beyond you, frankly, , and not something that you as [00:27:00] teacher can address? , You know, I deal with young children, , and I'm often in preschool and first and second grades. And one of the things I know is that when. A child really feels valued in the class and, I go back to their culture and their linguistic,, practices when that child feels valued and cared for and recognized and noticed that child learns. , It's just amazing. And so I think that that is one of the things that I train or hope to train teachers. I often say that one of the things that I think I'm good at is understanding the child's point of view. Beginning to divest myself of being an adult and putting myself in that child's place and recognizing what they're feeling, how they're, , distressed and whatever, and what I can do to [00:28:00] modify that. So, , I really think that literacy practices have got to recognize that children aren't going to be learning very much about literacy if they feel very unhappy or they feel very unvalued in class, or if the materials in class and the resources in class have nothing to do with them. Yeah, I, I think they get disconnected. Joey: Absolutely. And. Dr. Adam Wolfsdorf, who by the way, I would love to make an introduction on your behalf too. He also teaches at New York University. Oh, he wrote the text Navigating Trauma in the English classroom. I'll definitely form the introduction between the both of you. What he says is that, "the classroom can be a space that is therapeutic for students, that lets them be seen, allows 'em to be recognized, but in no way should the classroom itself be a space of therapy". That's where the territory gets dangerous. Exactly. Exactly, Susan B Neuman: exactly. I think that's Joey: where we draw that line as well, where students can be acknowledged. That's really Susan B Neuman: [00:29:00] important. Joey: Yep. Mm-hmm. But in no way can we come and say, reading will heal you. Stories will heal you. That's where it gets dangerous. Stories can help them. Stories can allow them to think. But it, it's not gonna heal them. Susan B Neuman: No, that's right. It's a, it's not a therapeutic environment. In fact, one of the things that I try to train teachers is you are not their friend. Joey: Mm-hmm. Susan B Neuman: Their teacher. Joey: Exactly, Susan B Neuman: and that relationship has to be established and maintained carefully. And a lot of our people that I train, and I'm sure you train, are young and they have a tendency to be a camp counselor, babysitter, and know you're a teacher. And , that's a certain position you have to maintain. Joey: Absolutely. Because we're a different form of authority in front of that room. That's right. So in thinking about the state of both literacy and education within the next couple of years and into the next generation, what advice would you give to our listeners who [00:30:00] are now planning their career and their outlook and working with the new generation of children? And what would you say is a major takeaway from our conversation today that you want our listeners to know about? Susan B Neuman: I think that the field of education can be very, very exciting. , It's a tough job. I think,, a lot of people should recognize it is not an easy , vocation , but it's extremely rewarding. So when I'm in the school, I'm in the schools a fair amount, and yesterday I was in the schools working with some pre. K kids and who just charm me. I couldn't believe it. And in the middle of,, being just charmed by these wonderful children, the little a child began to look like this. And I recognized that he was not having a good day. And, , I said, you're not having a good day, are you? And he. And he didn't know much English, but he just [00:31:00] shook his head. And so we went and we took a, a nature walk together recognizing that literacy was not on the child's mind at the time. Mm-hmm. It was. He needed to go outside and have, some wonderful opportunities. So I say to people who are thinking about teaching that you can make an enormous difference , and what other career, could you make such a difference and you wanna be a bank teller for goodness taker, make lots of money? No, you're not gonna make a lot of money, but you're gonna have a enormous rewarding career where you're making a difference for young children., You're. Changing people's lives, and they'll remember you forever. What could be better than that? Joey: Absolutely. And I'll end with one more question 'cause I've seen, especially on social media lately, that teachers have a reputation in society that has been a little bit more frowned on lately because of the work that we're trying to do. And [00:32:00] even in my own dissertation, I have a whole a hundred page long chapter dedicated to the pop culture phenomena of teachers who are seen as these superheroes when really we're just caregivers. We're not heroic, we're just caring people. And I think there's different avenues of society as well through the use of social media that really try to discredit our image in the work that we're trying to do. So what would you say to educators who are feeling fatigued or burnout or about to start their career? What advice would you tell them in order to keep going and make the most outta their experience? Susan B Neuman: Well, . I think time, is important. So I tell my teachers, you're gonna go out there and you're going to make tons of mistakes. You're gonna fall in love with your kids. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, you're not gonna be terribly good. Right. Because it takes a long time, frankly, to get good. And that's what is exciting. Every year you're going to get a little bit better, a little bit [00:33:00] better around the five-year mark, you're gonna hit your mark, and then, you're really going to begin to, to change lives when you make a mistake and, when something doesn't go that well, have a laugh, enjoy., You're with children who have enormous numbers of stories to tell you., You're interacting with interesting people every single day, so, at the same time, while, we need to take work seriously, we also need to recognize we all have foibles. We all , try hard and make mistakes, and that's okay. That's the way we get better and we will get better over time. Absolutely. Joey: The way that I've always seen it is that even now in the college semester, if I have the best, like now I can say, even though I'm teaching 10 classes, I have the best group of students across all my classes that I have ever seen. It's only going to be for 16 weeks. If it was not the best semester ever, that's okay too, 'cause it would only be going on for [00:34:00] 16 weeks. No matter what happens, the show will go on. There will be good days in bad semesters, there will be bad days in good semesters. Mm-hmm. And I think the best thing that we can do as educators is to just let our students know that we're there and we care. Whenever I go on rate my professors, all I see from people that I look up is like, oh. That person cared about us. That's like the number one thing that they remember and that they looked at us to reflect on that they had somebody at any point in their lives, K through adult, somebody who was there to care about them and see them during that time. Susan B Neuman: That's right. That's absolutely right. One of the things that I encourage them to do is be a reflective practitioner. Begin to examine your own thinking, examine your own practice, and then say, how are the children responding? And on the basis of that response actually , reflect on that and make it better every single [00:35:00] time. So in other words, when we're reflective about what we are doing and how students are learning, we'll get better and better, and who could ask for anything more. Joey: Absolutely. Yeah. That's the joy of teaching as well. Susan B Neuman: Right. Well, , Joey: Susan, this has been a great conversation. Thank you again for the decades that you spend helping the rest of us see literacy as both an art and a right and working with the next generation of teachers in order to help our students feel seen and heard. It's such a privilege to learn from you and your journey. Thank you for being here. Well, thank Susan B Neuman: you Thank you for joining us on the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts and stay connected with us on the at Classroom Narratives podcast over Instagram and Facebook. Remember, together we can transform our scars into stars and education, one conversation at a time.