Just because somebody has been traumatized, it's not a death sentence. Just like if somebody has been physically injured, it's not a death sentence if proper treatment and proper care is received.

Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. The space for Education Meets Resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode we dive deep into the personal stories of educators, students, leaders, and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities within modern education.

Whether you're just starting your teaching journey or are a seasoned professional looking for inspiration, we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, and build trauma-informed communities within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at the front of the classroom as we get started.

Audio Only - All Participants: Welcome back to today's episode on the Classroom Narratives Podcast, where I'm honored to welcome Dr. Jamie Marich, a groundbreaking trauma specialist, expressive artist, and author of [00:01:00] more than a Dozen books, and the founder of the Institute for Creative Mindfulness.

Jamie's work blends clinical expertise with lived experience and recovery . Disassociation and identity offering an approach to healing that is as creative as it is compassionate. From EMDR therapy and mindfulness to the power of expressive arts, Jamie's voice has inspired practitioners and survivors around the world.

And in this conversation we'll explore how these approaches can transform not just therapy, but the very culture of our classrooms and communities. Jamie, Dr. Marich, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks Dr. Joey for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation. My pleasure.

So when I was listening to a recent TEDx, how recent was that? TEDx from Youngstown? It was 10 years ago. It feels recent to me. Yes. So, which only just goes to show how trauma was a public health crisis then and the public health crisis now.

So in a TEDx that Dr. Marich delivered in. [00:02:00] 2015. 15. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Marich really emphasizes this idea as to how trauma can heal through care and validation, but we live in the world where we work to overcome our physical pain, like how a soccer player can get injured. We work to help those people, but emotional wounds are a lot different, and we celebrate the people who play well when hurt, but yet we criticize them when they ask for help and.

I've always thought about this as well, that we live in a society or a culture that places so much value on burnout. We value driving people to exhaustion. Yet we don't know how to take care of them once they've reached that stage of exhaustion. And I wanted to go ahead and start with that to just get a broader definition as to what the research says trauma encompasses, what it means to heal with care, and how we can help people that are coming outta trauma , [00:03:00] when we don't even see it to begin with.

So I operate from like a lot of things with academic research, you have different camps to different schools, different kind philosophies around trauma means and the treatment of it. Yet , as an EMDR therapist, which stands for eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, it's a form of trauma therapy that I adhere to and that I teach.

There's been an a more expanded definition of trauma embraced. And what that means is trauma is not just post-traumatic stress disorder as it was codified in 1980 after the Vietnam War. And to be clear, that was important advocacy after Vietnam, that got a larger conversation started about the impact of traumatic experiences on mental health.

I actually lean more into my background as an English teacher in trying to explain trauma. Even though I [00:04:00] am now a clinician in this field, that trauma just means wound. It is an English word that we use, but it comes from the Greek word meaning wound. And so like you saw in that TEDx talk, and I encourage people to check it out if they wanna see me riff on that a little bit more.

Everything we know about physical wounds, like they take a long time to heal after perhaps taking a short time to cause they need to heal from the inside out , can pretty metaphorically apply. So the working definition I will always use of trauma is that it's any unhealed human wound, whether that be physical, emotional, sexual, spiritual, and people from more of the neuroscience realm can certainly cite the research better than I can on this.

Looking at the mental health, the physical health impacts. Of unhealed trauma because of things like cortisol levels rising after traumatic experiences yet something that I really lean into in my work is this notion that [00:05:00] just because somebody has been traumatized, it's not a death sentence. Just like if somebody has been physically injured, it's not a death sentence if proper treatment and proper care is received.

What makes trauma such a public health crisis that I spoke about in the TEDx talk and still applies is we have this tendency to be like, oh, there's nothing wrong. Just move on. Just, just keep pressing through. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps instead of addressing things as wounds that need to be treated.

It's like when we go to the hospital, the doctor won't just say, oh, it's fine. Just go home and ride it out. I mean, they may, but it's like with the brain, it's gonna take a little bit more than antibiotics. Mm-hmm. And I remember, it's like someone said to me once that they wish someone can just sip on chicken soup to get the pain going away.

Mm. And with emotional pain, it's so far away from that. We live in a society where there's all different types of people who come into a classroom [00:06:00] with everyday wounds and everyday baggage, whether it's from the teachers all the way down to the students.

And we've gotten this language, and actually ever since Dr. Marrich and I have been talking, I've really tried to change the way I use this phrase, because I'm realizing that it is a little bit cringier than I would like. We're trying to implement these areas called safe spaces into classrooms.

Mm-hmm. And what Dr. Marrich and I were talking about over email in the past was that sometimes when we try and proclaim a room as safe. That actually takes away the credibility as a counterintuitive space. And it made me think about, well, that's true. When I was a student and I had a teacher announce that their space was safe, my gut reaction is, oh wow.

So how vulnerable am I going to be expected to be in this class? Mm-hmm. And I think about that a lot now too, as a teacher that instead of announcing this room is safe, what I try and do otherwise is use phrasing around this, like you [00:07:00] are always invited into the conversation as you see best fit for you.

Mm mm-hmm.. And use different phrases of context to invite students into classrooms. So from different areas or rather different avenues of education from your perspective, what truly does make a space feel safe for students? And how can teachers continue to communicate that?

I'm glad we're talking about this. First of all, I wanna say. I honor anybody's intention, especially a teacher's intention to want to cultivate and create safe space. , You're already winning as far as I'm concerned, if that's your intention. Yet, the problem with outwardly declaring this is a safe space is that some students may still be feeling you out.

As the teacher, they may be feeling out the environment. And so I tend to come back with, show me this is a safe space. Don't tell me this is a safe space. So I liked your example of invitational [00:08:00] language because I think if we invite people in a conversation without forcing them into conversation, that's one way that you show me this is a safe space.

And the other thing for many trauma survivors, especially those who come from let's just say homes where a lot of developmental trauma was experienced and then on top of other trauma that could be experienced, especially in the public forum, no place may feel safe. I know so much of what drives you into this work is experiences you've had with school shootings.

Mm-hmm. And that's the sad reality that we live in in this country today, that the act of walking into a school may never feel a hundred percent safe. Or into a classroom may never feel a hundred percent safe. As somebody who identifies as queer, I never feel a hundred percent safe out there.

So I also lean into this phrase safe enough, like, do I feel safe enough here in this context to connect? Another friend of mine years [00:09:00] ago put out a phrase I really liked safe moments. Can we talk about safe moments, safe connections instead of safe spaces? Because yeah, there are many spaces out there in public where just because of the nature of what the public looks like and feels like and seems like today, uh, there's always gonna be some element of threat.

So I don't know if there's really such a thing as a fully safe space. But I do know there are safe moments, safe connections, safe experiences, and that's what I try to foster with things like invitational language and things like validating someone's lived experience and not trying to shut it down.

Definitely. And I love knowing that those invitations are available in these settings that are flexible for the students' needs and their desires. So. What are some small and powerful things that we can do to continue inviting students into a sense of belonging? Because the sad reality [00:10:00] that I've come to, and I think Paula Reed mentioned this in her podcast as well, is that not every student is going to want to come to school to form a partnership with their teacher.

Some of them are there to earn their grade and go away at the end of the term or the end of the year, and never communicate with us again. Mm-hmm. But it's still our responsibility and our obligation to form a partnership with those students while they are under our professional care as their educator.

So what are some ways that we can continue really trying to invite students into this sense of belonging? whether they're looking for like a long-term place in that or not? The bare minimum is to show kindness. 'cause I think of the teachers in my elementary and high school years that made the most impact.

And they were the teachers who were first and foremost kind and not abrasive., And I get it, [00:11:00] it's a hard gig being a teacher and the jadedness and the cynicism can be there because of the system you're being asked to work in. Don't pass that on to the kids. Show kindness, show appreciation , in small ways that you can Now with belonging , this is where again, it can be walking on eggshells in the modern climate that we're in about things that public school teachers can or can't say yet any way we can model for a student any way that we could show a student, you are meant to be who you are.

And where so many students struggle is with sexuality, with gender expression, and especially for kids who may grow up in conservative religious homes, school may be the only place they're allowed to be themselves or feel that they can be themselves safely. So I think sometimes it's even that look that we can give a student, even if you're feeling censored now in this, in this culture, about what you can [00:12:00] say.

Mm-hmm. The foster belonging, just that, that smile. That appreciation. If you see a kid expressing themselves in a way that's, that's totally genuine, I think that that very much goes a long way. 'cause I also think of the teachers that made an impact on me coming up. And a lot of it was just the nonverbal communication that says, you're seen, I accept you just as you are.

And then those of us , who do teach in the humanities in English or, or have. Ooh, the material you work with that can open up things of, of belonging and important social issues . this is why I consistently say I still feel like more of an English teacher than a scientist.

Thankfully, when I talk about trauma, because I do believe Muriel Ru Kaiser's teaching that the world is made of tiny stories, not atoms I mean, story is, is such a powerful vehicle and in [00:13:00] indigenous, especially shamanically inclined cultures , there is this notion, I mean, when I did my book, dissociation Made Simple , one of the shamans I interviewed for at a person from Ecuador said something that was really impactful to me. He said.

My shaman, who's an elder in, in the mountains of Ecuador, wouldn't even know what a brain is or an MRI, but he knows what stories are. And when a person comes to him for healing, he wants to know what is the story of the place from which you come? What is your people's story and what are the stories that move you and what are the stories that drive you?

And that's how I will get to know you, and that's how we will figure out , how to bring you healing. I love that. And Dr. Adam Wolfsdorf, I'll put a link to our podcast with him in our segment as well. Adam Wolfsdorf is actually the author of the text, it's rather book published through the National Council of Teachers of English calls navigating [00:14:00] trauma in the English space.

Hmm. And I think after reading his text and having a conversation with him, he really grounded me in what I'm trying to do here as a trauma scholar. Hmm. And what he emphasizes. That I echo as well is that when it comes to writing itself, one question I'm always asking in my own classrooms is, well, what should first year writing look like?

And one thing that we've been very clear about is that. There is a place for logic in the sciences. Mm-hmm. And there's a place for emotion that we can invite into the humanities. And as writing teachers, our job is to facilitate a very clear balance as to how emotions and logic can come together to form an academic response.

Mm-hmm. And that's part of my goal as the educator as well. And in the world that we live in, that's especially focused on this performance assessment first and the standardization of how learning goes at my level, at the college level, there's definitely a lot more flexibility with , what that can [00:15:00] look like.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Before our K 12 educators, which is where I found myself in a really cornered situation when I was teaching. Eighth grade English. I wanted to teach the giver by talking about jonas's emotions. I wanted to teach Elie Wiesel's Holocaust memoir Night by really having them explore their own personal histories.

And I had a student come me with tears in her eyes. Say, Hey, I'm bullied because of my religion and antisemitism in this school is real. I didn't know that. I wasn't aware of that until I started teaching Elie Wiesel and then looking to have students tap into circumstances, but there was a lot holding me back and tying my hands because the number one priority was getting students to pass that end of the year assessment.

And it was kind of emphasized to me that. At the end of the year test is going to be asking about figurative language and what's the author's purpose there, which is something that I believe, and Tim Gillespie, who is the author of Why Literature Matters, also [00:16:00] says that schools miss the boat on this as well.

Oh yeah. That if we are not teaching empathy and instead we're focusing on the mechanics of a text, we missed the true aesthetic that's in front of us. So when it comes to focusing on these performance first mindsets in K 12 schools, what strategies can our teachers use to still bring beauty into the learning of the humanities?

Oh wow. What an amazing question. 'cause I fight this in my profession as well. Yes. I'm primarily an educator of professionals at this point. Mental health professionals who are doing their continuing ed and more advanced methodologies. And every year it feels like the accreditation boards who give me the stamp of approval after I pay them a lot of money in order to offer continuing education credits.

I have seven bureaucracies I have to fend off as, anyway, it's a whole other story, but every year there seems to be more [00:17:00] and more of a clamping down on Every minute you breathe has to be accounted for with some piece of peer reviewed literature. And there's this censoring of lived experience. Mm-hmm.

That that's not valid education. I will say all of that being noted as a problem, and I think it's a similar frustration to what people who feel they have to teach the test feel years ago, and here, here's the learning that I'm, I'm gonna highlight. I didn't know. If I was going to be able to be an EMDR therapy basic trainer because of everything we're talking about, it's a highly accredited system that you have to vet your curriculum through and you have to promise to teach protocols exactly as as they're in place.

And for many years I said, I don't know if I could teach that way. I am too much of a rebel. Maybe just stick to advanced stuff. And then I had this moment in 2014 when I was teaching an advanced course where it [00:18:00] struck me. I can teach what they want me to teach, but I'm going to be myself when I do it, not, but, and I'm going to be myself when I do it, so that affect that joy.

I will make commentary sometimes with my eyes, sometimes directly when I say things like, this is what they want me to teach you. And this is what I've actually learned and, and this is what I actually do. So I, I can teach people, for example, EMDR protocols now, yet I am still Jamie in how I go in as a teacher and I let my humanity show when I can, even when I'm teaching very technical things.

Love that. And when it comes to also being authentic as teachers. 'cause I think one takeaway from our conversation is just the value of authenticity. Mm. And I find that as well, that the classroom is one space where I can be authentically vulnerable. Not face judgment or repercussion because the students take it [00:19:00] as a learning opportunity, right?

We talk about things like the Douglas tragedy and stories about how the community had overcome that. It's, it's like my class permits me to be authentic about those types of stories. But when we talk about our own journeys of healing as educators and we share parts of ourselves in the way to build trust, how can we do that without crossing boundaries between us and our students?

Keeping them safe as well from information that maybe they shouldn't have to know. Hmm.

It's a great question and I, I'm trying to put myself into the role, like back into the role of a high school educator. Yes. Mm-hmm. I did coach speech and debate for three years, and I think where I struggled admittedly, was knowing that some of the kids felt more like adults than kids because they were developmentally advanced, and it's like, no, they're still children and they are still being exposed to things in the world that they should not have to be seeing. So don't accelerate [00:20:00] their adulthood by, you know, oversharing certain things or trying to get them to talk about things that they just may not be wanting to yet.

Mm-hmm. Or this may not feel like the space to be discussing it, but if there is an open door where a kid feels you are the only person they can trust, um, I don't take that for granted. But then also be advised that. Knowing your scope and your role, then maybe have you considered reaching out about therapy or other mm-hmm.

Other ways that you can have help available to you because there's only so much I could do as a teacher and even as a therapist today. Um, I try to be as open and as empathetic as a person as I can be, but I often have to have these tough conversations around, I'm not here to be your replacement parent.

Mm-hmm. I know that's what you may feel you need and I wanna validate that, but in order to keep the [00:21:00] boundary safe for you and for me, there's an element of transparency involved here about what I can do as your teacher or what I can do as your therapist, but I, you know, have always felt this openness to I can hopefully help network you to the further help that you need.

And you know, I was blessed when I was in high school 'cause I know this is not the norm for everybody. I had a marvelous guidance counselor . I know Mrs. Leon, who I've written about in my memoir and in my work, uh, she did a lot of that, but she followed, I think the advice I just gave.

She was a human being while she did it. And she saw that there was a hurting kid behind a lot of the things I talked to her about. And she never crossed the line into offering psychotherapy to me. She listened. , And that was what I needed to keep me afloat.

Until then, I was 18, 19 years [00:22:00] old and, was able to seek out formal help for the first time. But those seeds that she planted is what allowed me to do that. Thank you so much for sharing that as well. And, I remember reading about your guidance counselor hearing about her, one of your recent conversations as well.

Mm-hmm. So thank you again for sharing that. And I'm thinking here because we are recording our podcast today on September 4th. We'll be airing in November, but , when we record on September 4th, this is actually five hours after my first day of class at New York City. And I'm thinking back to five hours ago where.

I think I must have said at least a dozen times, I am not a therapist. Mm-hmm. I am not a therapist. Why did I say that? Because I said to this class of first semester freshmen who are in a student success strategies program that I've been now a part of for five years. Every fall I teach this course to incoming students.

I said, I'm not a therapist, but I want you to know. That I was in the Stoneman Douglas community when that tragedy happened. Mm, why should you know that? Because you're going to [00:23:00] be reading excerpts of human expression from their memoirs and from their text, and so you're not taken aback. I want you to know that's the text I've chosen to help you think about expression this semester.

I am not a therapist, but I also wanted you to know that I lost a very close friend to suicide. Why should you know that? Because we're going to have a day on college student suicide. We'll be reading Francis Kafka Metamorphosis and having very deep conversations about burnout this semester. I am not a therapist, but you should also know that I burned out my, first school year of teaching middle school because of those past two events and how I thought I can work with my students as a superhero teacher.

Why should you know that? Because for your final exam paper, you're gonna be looking at Hollywood films about teachers like Dead Poets, Society, Freedom Writers, and analyzing how these professionals watch their way into a system. And when you leave college, you'll be doing the same. You'll be exploring systems, and I want you to use my class to form a toolkit for yourself to think about how [00:24:00] to overcome disillusionment.

So I kept emphasizing as I'm going over the syllabus and sharing these things, I kept saying. I am not your therapist this semester, but I am here as a caring human to listen and advocate for you as time goes on and for whatever comes about, I'm here to bring you to the next professional who can then be an expert to help you.

So I said to them, think of me as your, your caring advocate. Mm-hmm. Who's your guide on the side for the next 16 weeks and beyond? That's so important though. 'cause I, I believe it helps to be transparent about the scope, yet I, I will tell you this pretty definitively too. There are so many people in my life, like Alicia, who's my operations director at my training company and several others in my world who will say things like, I'm not a clinician, I'm not a therapist.

And I say, yet. You're a caring human being. Yes. Who probably does more good to bring about some help and healing than a lot of therapists do. Yeah. So why I say that [00:25:00] is not to totally trash my profession, but No, it's like we all have a role in this. I love the teaching of the late rom das who said, we're all just walking each other home.

Whatever that means to you. I, I believe we're all responsible for each other's collective healing, collective liberation, however you wanna look at it. And never doubt that an easy way to do that, even when you're setting boundaries, is to be kind right and, honor the shared humanity that you're sharing space with.

So in a world that cares less, we need to be the ones to care more. And as we said, help mend each other. And you also mentioned that ways to do that are by identifying what those wounds look like in people.

Just how we can identify, like we said, a headache or a broken arm or a sprained ankle, is being able to identify what that wounds looks like. And one of the ways that we can take action is what we can say through expression. And that could be a whole nother podcast to talk about narrative medicine.

Mm-hmm. And what that looks like. When [00:26:00] we embed that safely into the classroom through a way that invites students to share about themselves through writing art, poetry, language to help us point them forward in a way that will keep them safe for that time. Safe for now. Safe for now? Do you have any final thoughts for our listeners about where we can learn more about you or any final takeaways from today's conversation we can share with them? Well, if you wanna learn more about my work, jamie merrit.com, just my name.com links you to all of my various projects, uh, both in the clinical realm and in the expressive art and the writing realm.

Uh. My latest book that's out is You Lied to Me About God, which is my memoir that came out in the fall, and I can announce here since this is airing in November , my next writing project is going to be called Memoir Writing a Spiritual Practice. So talk about narrative medicine. Um, it's where it's at on socials.

I'm Dr. Jamie M on Instagram, D-R-J-A-M-I-E-M, [00:27:00] and. I just wanna thank you for an enriching conversation. I love, I think this is my final word. I love anything that's cross-disciplinary, because I think therapists especially have this tendency to stay in our silos with other therapists. And perhaps because I did start as an English teacher and a speech and debate coach, I just really love this conversation.

I love when I talk to people outside of the therapeutic space on issues around trauma. So thank you for hosting the conversation. Such a pleasure. That was Dr. Jamie Marrich sharing a rich blend of wisdom, vulnerability, and practical tools. And if today's conversation sparks reflection, I encourage you to explore Jamie's books, especially Disassociation Made Simple and Trauma, and the 12 Steps and the Resources at the Institute for Creative Mindfulness.

These are more than ideas. They have become invitations to lead. Teach and live with greater authenticity. And as always, may the narratives that we carry remind us that healing and education is possible when we dare to bring our [00:28:00] whole selves into our work. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you, Joey.

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Thank you for joining us on the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts and stay connected with us on the at Classroom Narratives podcast over Instagram and Facebook.

Remember, together we can transform our scars into stars and education, one conversation at a time.