WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.419 Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in 00:00:02.419 --> 00:00:04.900 Education podcast, the space where education 00:00:04.900 --> 00:00:09.019 meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in 00:00:09.019 --> 00:00:11.400 each episode, we dive deep into the personal 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.099 stories of educators, students, leaders, and 00:00:15.099 --> 00:00:18.079 frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:21.260 within modern education. Whether you're just 00:00:21.260 --> 00:00:23.879 starting your teaching journey, or are we seasoned 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:26.239 professionals looking for inspiration, we'll 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:29.079 explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.859 burnout, and build trauma -informed communities 00:00:31.859 --> 00:00:34.979 within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at 00:00:34.979 --> 00:00:36.859 the front of the classroom as we get started. 00:00:37.299 --> 00:00:39.460 Welcome back to the Classroom Narratives Healing 00:00:39.460 --> 00:00:41.899 and Education Podcast, where today's guest brings 00:00:41.899 --> 00:00:44.520 a powerful lens to the conversation, one shaped 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:46.840 by the classroom, the courtroom, and the kitchen 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.859 table. Frances Shefter is an education attorney, 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:53.840 former special education teacher, and the founder 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:56.719 of Shefter Law PA, where she guides families 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.479 through the often overwhelming terrain of IEPs 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:02.899 and 504 plans. Her trademarked stress -free IEP 00:01:02.899 --> 00:01:05.420 approach is more than just a legal framework. 00:01:05.620 --> 00:01:08.480 It's a mindset that empowers parents, strengthens 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:11.260 school partnerships, and prioritizes what matters 00:01:11.260 --> 00:01:13.579 most, the well -being and the dignity of the 00:01:13.579 --> 00:01:16.920 child. With over a decade of experience in the 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.900 classroom and nearly two decades in law, Frances 00:01:19.900 --> 00:01:22.340 understands both the heartache and the hope that 00:01:22.340 --> 00:01:25.120 can sit side by side when advocating for a child 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.680 with disabilities. She's also a parent herself, 00:01:27.939 --> 00:01:30.879 and her empathy is matched by her clarity, helping 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:33.260 families navigate not just the paperwork, but 00:01:33.260 --> 00:01:35.840 the emotions, the relationships, and the resilience 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:38.359 that all come with that. So today we'll explore 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:40.819 what it means to create safer, more collaborative 00:01:40.819 --> 00:01:43.680 spaces for neurodiverse students, and how systems 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:46.319 built on compliance can be transformed into communities 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.799 of care. So Frances, welcome to the show. Thank 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.379 you, Joey. What a wonderful introduction. Thank 00:01:52.379 --> 00:01:54.739 you so much for having me. I get that a lot. 00:01:54.739 --> 00:01:57.340 Thank you so much for that. So Frances, let's 00:01:57.340 --> 00:01:58.939 go ahead and start with your background. So you 00:01:58.939 --> 00:02:01.439 were a special education teacher before you became 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.760 an attorney. And what was that period like in 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:07.040 your career? And what did you witness in classrooms 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:09.620 or even IEP meetings that made you say, wow, 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.919 this system needs a stronger advocate? So I started 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.659 in general education. I did my undergrad and 00:02:16.659 --> 00:02:19.139 early childhood. And then I went back and got 00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:22.560 certified in special education. One of the ones 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:24.939 that jump out at me most is when I was teaching 00:02:24.939 --> 00:02:28.020 back then it was varying exceptionalities, which 00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:31.159 was mildly intellectually disabled, emotionally 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:34.680 disabled, mildly and learning disabled all in 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:36.620 one class. That's how they did it in Florida. 00:02:36.699 --> 00:02:42.520 I had twins. And I was looking at their test 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.979 scores. And I'm like, why are both of these twins 00:02:46.979 --> 00:02:52.000 still here? Because one of them was higher intelligence 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:55.919 and average and like academic was doing fine. 00:02:56.020 --> 00:02:58.919 And I just couldn't. And so when I went and talked 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:01.639 to somebody about it, they said, oh, well, we're 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:04.080 keeping the one back, hoping that the other will 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.900 catch up. I'm like. that's not the way we do 00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:10.900 this and so what I did was I mainstreamed the 00:03:10.900 --> 00:03:16.099 child into a gen-ed reading class and then into 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:18.280 math and the teacher came to me and was like 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:22.039 she belongs here and so we wound up mainstreaming 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:25.460 her totally and guess what happened the other 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:28.180 twin caught up and got mainstreamed as well Because 00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:30.419 it was like, wait, my sister's up here. I want 00:03:30.419 --> 00:03:33.560 to meet my sister. And so that was like my big 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:36.159 one in elementary school. So I was seven years 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:38.900 in teaching there. And then I went up to teach 00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:41.400 at an alternative middle and high school in Palm 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:44.879 Beach County. And I was originally teaching math 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.699 and science. And I was teaching regular diploma 00:03:48.699 --> 00:03:52.020 and special diploma in the same classroom of 00:03:52.020 --> 00:03:53.900 math and science. Oh, yeah. And high school and 00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:56.759 middle school in the same classroom. Because 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:59.960 being an alternative school, we only had 50 students 00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:03.039 and that's how they allocate teachers. They don't 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:07.139 look at the demand of what these kids need for 00:04:07.139 --> 00:04:09.840 education to have their IEP implemented and get 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:11.520 where they need to be. They look at you have 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.460 X amount of students, you get X teachers. I was 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:17.980 there about two or three months before I got 00:04:17.980 --> 00:04:20.439 promoted to the special ed coordinator, long 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:24.519 series of events. And there it was like, I loved 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:26.540 it. I loved teaching. I loved the kids, but it 00:04:26.540 --> 00:04:28.959 wasn't about the kids anymore, you know? And 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:30.540 so that's why I was happy to leave the classroom 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:33.540 because it wasn't about the kids. And a lot of 00:04:33.540 --> 00:04:35.980 times my kids in the alternative middle and high 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:37.579 school, they were, you know, the kids that were 00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:39.480 basically court ordered, go to school or go to 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.660 jail or juvie. And a lot of times the schools 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:45.379 try to keep the kids from coming back. And I'm 00:04:45.379 --> 00:04:48.319 like, no, they came here for their six weeks 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:52.269 and now they come back. I'm like, why are you 00:04:52.269 --> 00:04:54.389 not looking at the child? Well, they did this. 00:04:54.410 --> 00:04:56.370 I'm like, yeah, they did that. And now we've 00:04:56.370 --> 00:04:58.730 gotten to the point that that behavior is not 00:04:58.730 --> 00:05:02.170 going to continue. We need to come back. And 00:05:02.170 --> 00:05:04.149 again, it was constant fighting. And I'm like, 00:05:04.170 --> 00:05:07.930 when did it become what might happen? When did 00:05:07.930 --> 00:05:10.990 it become not giving these kids a chance to grow 00:05:10.990 --> 00:05:15.949 and change and actually develop? Because that's 00:05:15.949 --> 00:05:21.329 what education is supposed to be about. I basically 00:05:21.329 --> 00:05:23.290 told the school, OK, you don't accept him back. 00:05:23.790 --> 00:05:26.329 Don't try to send any more kids to me at all. 00:05:26.689 --> 00:05:29.970 And they kind of took that back a second and 00:05:29.970 --> 00:05:32.129 said, we'll take him back because they realized 00:05:32.129 --> 00:05:35.029 what that would mean. And I was so happy because 00:05:35.029 --> 00:05:37.829 a year later I saw him and he was getting all 00:05:37.829 --> 00:05:40.149 A's and B's and was going to be a physical therapist 00:05:40.149 --> 00:05:43.730 and was doing amazing. And that's the chance 00:05:43.730 --> 00:05:45.829 the kid needed. He needed to get out of the school 00:05:45.829 --> 00:05:48.110 for a little bit and then back again. And so 00:05:48.110 --> 00:05:52.149 it was just. I realized the schools are doing 00:05:52.149 --> 00:05:56.750 a disservice for these kids. And I was tired 00:05:56.750 --> 00:06:00.189 of fighting the system for what these kids needed 00:06:00.189 --> 00:06:03.269 and deserved. I love that line because I too 00:06:03.269 --> 00:06:05.350 have realized that not only do we say that it's 00:06:05.350 --> 00:06:07.569 not about the kids, but the kids are always the 00:06:07.569 --> 00:06:11.069 victim of the system's failures. And it's almost 00:06:11.069 --> 00:06:13.209 like that they're the customer in the system, 00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:15.649 but they're always being lost to this ongoing 00:06:15.649 --> 00:06:18.519 custody battle. Like no matter what side they're 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:20.240 being pulled, they're always going to be on the 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:23.100 losing side of that. And in thinking about that, 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.019 many educators tend to feel caught between what 00:06:26.019 --> 00:06:28.639 they know a student needs and what they're allowed 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:31.360 to recommend under administrative pressure. So 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.079 what advice do you give teachers who want to 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:37.269 speak up but feel constrained to do so? It's 00:06:37.269 --> 00:06:38.689 funny you say that because, of course, I still 00:06:38.689 --> 00:06:40.610 have a lot of teacher friends and they're like, 00:06:40.709 --> 00:06:42.750 oh, my God, I so you need to be representing 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:45.170 this family. But they know they can't say that. 00:06:45.230 --> 00:06:47.430 They can't be like, hey, here. So what I always 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:50.490 say is tell them to go to my website and my YouTube 00:06:50.490 --> 00:06:53.310 channel to educate. You know, the teachers can 00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:56.449 if they know this child needs something, they 00:06:56.449 --> 00:07:01.189 can kind of hint around to the parents of. Here's 00:07:01.189 --> 00:07:03.329 a place to go educate yourself on how to advocate 00:07:03.329 --> 00:07:05.829 for your child. I also tell teachers, like, be 00:07:05.829 --> 00:07:08.430 honest with the parents. If you need to have 00:07:08.430 --> 00:07:11.649 that side conversation with them, that's OK, 00:07:11.790 --> 00:07:15.589 too. I always tell my clients, look, I can tell 00:07:15.589 --> 00:07:17.910 you right now it's not the teacher. I guarantee 00:07:17.910 --> 00:07:20.410 the teacher does have your child's best interest 00:07:20.410 --> 00:07:23.209 at heart. Unfortunately, what I know from the 00:07:23.209 --> 00:07:26.089 inside is it's administrator, it's central office, 00:07:26.230 --> 00:07:29.290 it's whatever else. Don't find kids eligible. 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:31.389 We can't afford it anymore. We don't have the 00:07:31.389 --> 00:07:34.290 class space or don't do this or don't, you know, 00:07:34.310 --> 00:07:36.009 and the teachers, what are they going to do? 00:07:36.069 --> 00:07:38.290 They can't go against their boss, even though 00:07:38.290 --> 00:07:41.449 they want to, but that's their livelihood. So 00:07:41.449 --> 00:07:43.750 I always say the teachers tell you something 00:07:43.750 --> 00:07:46.870 in private. Great. We won't call the teacher 00:07:46.870 --> 00:07:50.050 out at a meeting ever, but I will then be able 00:07:50.050 --> 00:07:53.230 to go know what the teacher is thinking and be 00:07:53.230 --> 00:07:56.990 able to find the data within the child's record. 00:07:57.819 --> 00:07:59.699 to be able to fight for what that child needs. 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.339 And when I flat out ask the teacher, what do 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:05.639 you think about that? I kind of put them in a 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.500 spot that they don't have a choice but answering 00:08:08.500 --> 00:08:11.019 me correctly. So I give them that out, that they 00:08:11.019 --> 00:08:14.439 can say what they want in a way that the principal 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:15.839 can't get mad at them. Do you know what I mean? 00:08:16.180 --> 00:08:19.980 Yeah. So do the roundabout way to fight for the 00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:22.759 kids, because if you don't and the parents don't 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.980 know -do, then who does? I never realized. that 00:08:26.980 --> 00:08:30.500 bureaucracy almost always wins. I said almost. 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.840 Bureaucracy almost always wins over the student's 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.139 best interest. And I never understood as a pre 00:08:38.139 --> 00:08:40.720 -service educator that our hands are tied more 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:42.799 than we know. What are some ways that we can 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:45.179 work around the bureaucracy as educators? It's 00:08:45.179 --> 00:08:47.700 a hard one. I mean, as a teacher, it was like, 00:08:47.779 --> 00:08:50.080 shut the door and do what you need to do in the 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.360 classroom. You know what I mean? Like my principal. 00:08:54.379 --> 00:08:56.240 She knew what was going on in my classroom, but 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:57.799 she didn't know what was going on in my classroom, 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:00.580 if that makes sense. You know, like as long as 00:09:00.580 --> 00:09:02.559 the kids are learning and the parents are happy, 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:06.080 you're usually in a good space. Going around 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.860 the bureaucracy is so hard because even though 00:09:09.860 --> 00:09:11.580 with tenure and stuff, you can't necessarily 00:09:11.580 --> 00:09:14.500 lose your job. You can get involuntarily transferred. 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:17.440 There are other things that administrators and 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:21.299 central office can do. But what I always say 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:24.529 is to keep true to yourself. And keep true to 00:09:24.529 --> 00:09:28.990 the kids. And if what you think what you're doing 00:09:28.990 --> 00:09:31.629 and where you are, you can't make that change, 00:09:31.710 --> 00:09:34.690 figure out if there's another way or if there's 00:09:34.690 --> 00:09:36.850 another place that could use your expertise so 00:09:36.850 --> 00:09:39.580 that you're staying true to yourself. And you're 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:41.500 still helping the children. Thank you so much 00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:43.720 for that. Could you tell us about maybe some 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.639 specific pedagogies or strategies that have worked 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:48.840 in classrooms of neurodivergent learners? We 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:50.860 talk quite a bit about mainstream classrooms 00:09:50.860 --> 00:09:52.860 and ways to build community and work alongside 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:55.620 students for mutual understanding. What are some 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:58.019 strategies that are also effectively transferred 00:09:58.019 --> 00:10:00.320 into the neurodivergent classroom or the alternative 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.889 classroom space? I always found it interesting 00:10:02.889 --> 00:10:04.809 when I went back and did my master's and I was 00:10:04.809 --> 00:10:07.370 learning how to teach neurodivergent children, 00:10:07.509 --> 00:10:09.769 some of the strategies they taught, I was like, 00:10:09.870 --> 00:10:12.149 seriously, this would have worked in my gen-ed 00:10:12.149 --> 00:10:14.669 classroom. Like, why isn't this taught? And so 00:10:14.669 --> 00:10:16.970 for the general education teachers that have 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:20.370 the kids with the IEPs, that you have 25 kids 00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:22.690 in your class, eight of which have an IEP, like 00:10:22.690 --> 00:10:24.269 you're going to be able to teach individually, 00:10:24.470 --> 00:10:27.809 is to look at the IEP, right? I know. Look at 00:10:27.809 --> 00:10:31.899 the IEPs and see how you can incorporate what 00:10:31.899 --> 00:10:35.559 that child needs into the classroom. So for example, 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:37.960 if you have a child that needs a movement break, 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:40.629 well, guess what? If you're teaching elementary 00:10:40.629 --> 00:10:42.529 school, all your kids probably need a movement 00:10:42.529 --> 00:10:47.230 break. And so during every transition, let's 00:10:47.230 --> 00:10:49.509 do head, shoulders, knees, and toes. Let's run 00:10:49.509 --> 00:10:51.950 around the classroom. Let's clean our desks. 00:10:51.950 --> 00:10:55.169 Let's move books. Something that you're now implementing 00:10:55.169 --> 00:10:57.870 the IEP, but you're also incorporating the whole 00:10:57.870 --> 00:11:00.669 school. So it's true inclusion for our kids. 00:11:01.029 --> 00:11:02.990 And it goes the same with the special education. 00:11:03.269 --> 00:11:05.429 You have a classroom of eight kids, all with 00:11:05.429 --> 00:11:07.350 individual IEPs. How am I going to teach them 00:11:07.350 --> 00:11:10.159 all individually? It's find that common thread 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:13.480 in their IEPs and work it together into one plan. 00:11:13.940 --> 00:11:16.240 So it sounds like standard implementation is 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.980 another way to get across what different IEPs 00:11:18.980 --> 00:11:21.639 might be asking for. And I tried to do the same. 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.620 Like if I had an IEP where the student needed 00:11:23.620 --> 00:11:26.799 a handout, like a printed copy, I would try if 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:28.740 I had the resource to make a handout for everybody 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:32.000 in the room and get everybody access to all the 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.620 resources that are present and available. Right. 00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:36.820 Because that's the thing. Like you can never, 00:11:36.860 --> 00:11:40.809 as a teacher, A parent is not going to say, you 00:11:40.809 --> 00:11:43.070 gave my kid too much. Exactly. You know what 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.110 I mean? You did too much for them. Right, exactly. 00:11:46.409 --> 00:11:48.370 You gave them too much support. You did too much. 00:11:48.470 --> 00:11:50.669 Now, that being said, we don't want to hold the 00:11:50.669 --> 00:11:52.970 kid's hands too much. We want to be able to develop. 00:11:53.090 --> 00:11:55.269 But if you start by giving the child the notes 00:11:55.269 --> 00:11:58.450 and then move to guided notes, you're teaching 00:11:58.450 --> 00:12:01.490 the child how to take notes. And then you're 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:03.330 teaching the independence. You're doing that 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:06.570 scaffolding to build upon the skills. And all 00:12:06.570 --> 00:12:08.779 kids need to do that. And when it comes to actually 00:12:08.779 --> 00:12:11.340 building classroom climate and classroom structure, 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.559 what are some different methods that can be implemented 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:17.639 into the alternative classroom to maintain that? 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:23.460 Respect. I find the more we respect our children 00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:26.759 and treat them not like little adults, but as 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:29.879 human and valued, the more they're going to respect 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:32.120 and value themselves and they're going to respect 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:34.820 and value you. I had one of the toughest classes 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:37.240 I was substituting at the alternative middle. 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:40.299 and high school. And like, even the behaviorist 00:12:40.299 --> 00:12:42.539 was like, do you need me to support you? I'll 00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:44.080 be there in a minute if you need anything, like 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:46.580 knowing what I was walking into. And I walked 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:50.039 into that classroom and I went, you all have 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.620 an A right now. Like what? We didn't do anything. 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.279 Like you have an A. You have an A. Now you need 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:59.059 to keep that A. Can I tell you? The principal 00:12:59.059 --> 00:13:00.639 was like, what did you do? Like, how did you 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.019 get these kids to work? And that was it because 00:13:03.019 --> 00:13:05.220 they didn't want to lose what they had already. 00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:08.899 Forget trying to earn something. That's too hard 00:13:08.899 --> 00:13:11.559 for them. But now that they have it, you can't 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.639 take that away. So it's that out of the box thinking 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:18.539 that what will motivate your children? What works 00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:21.399 for your children? What do they need? When I 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:25.000 taught in the inner city, I knew a lot of my 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:27.820 kids didn't have breakfast in the morning. And 00:13:27.820 --> 00:13:30.620 if they didn't come before the cafeteria closed, 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.250 they didn't eat. I don't know about you, but 00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:36.029 if I'm over hungry, I'm not learning anything. 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:39.909 And so I would always have food in my classroom, 00:13:40.049 --> 00:13:42.289 always. And all the kids always knew it. And 00:13:42.289 --> 00:13:44.470 the cafeteria knew I did it. So they always gave 00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:46.870 me extra cereals and milks. I had a little refrigerator 00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:50.169 that my kids knew that if they were hungry, they 00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:52.769 came to me and I will make sure they have food. 00:13:52.809 --> 00:13:55.169 And I sent food home for the kids that I knew 00:13:55.169 --> 00:13:56.649 I needed to send home over the weekend because 00:13:56.649 --> 00:13:58.820 they wouldn't. have much food for the weekend. 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.039 And that's the thing. It's like making sure the 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:04.940 kids' basic needs are met helps. And then also 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:10.279 what do they need in the sense of how to tap 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:14.779 into their strengths rather than focusing on 00:14:14.779 --> 00:14:17.820 their weaknesses so much. Love it. Love it. It's 00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:19.899 Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I always appreciate 00:14:19.899 --> 00:14:22.200 when we acknowledge that here together. So if 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:25.259 we could wave a wand and fix one systematic barrier 00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:28.700 in the IEP or 504 process, what would that look 00:14:28.700 --> 00:14:31.120 like? And what can everyday educators and families 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.980 do to help push forward change to continue, as 00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:37.860 you mentioned earlier, just try to work around 00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:39.860 the bureaucracy in a safe but manageable way? 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:43.440 Focus on the children. Focus on the child's needs. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.879 We all say we're focusing on the children. We 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:48.279 all talk about it. But I can't tell you how many 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:50.440 times I've heard in an IEP meeting, oh, we don't 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.080 do that. Excuse me? It's an individual education 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:55.259 plan. What do you mean you don't do that? I have 00:14:55.259 --> 00:14:57.960 one client at every single IEP meeting. She has 00:14:57.960 --> 00:14:59.639 an eight by 10 picture of her child that she 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.659 picks up and puts on the table. This is who we're 00:15:02.659 --> 00:15:04.779 talking about. We're not talking about this paper. 00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:07.899 This is my child that we're talking about. And 00:15:07.899 --> 00:15:11.600 it brings it home. I've also told clients before 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.220 or potential clients, you know what? What I'm 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:17.360 hearing right now, have this conversation with 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:19.500 the principal. The principal is going to work 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:22.100 with you. If you bring me in, they're going to 00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:23.740 bring their lawyers in and then they have this 00:15:23.740 --> 00:15:25.440 and then they have that. And then the bureaucracy 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.200 is going to get in your way. But if you have 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.220 a principal or a teacher that's willing to do 00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:35.240 something on the out of the ordinary, do it. 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.580 Don't formalize it. Just get it done in the background. 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.580 Focus on the child. What's the best way to get 00:15:40.580 --> 00:15:43.659 my child what my child needs? And that goes the 00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:46.919 same for the teacher also. Like if you. want 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:48.840 to do something and try something, work it out 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.899 with the parent. Not necessarily saying go against 00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:53.779 your boss all the time, but you know what? Even 00:15:53.779 --> 00:15:55.440 if somebody finds out you're doing something, 00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:57.100 oh, you can't do that. You know what? You're 00:15:57.100 --> 00:15:59.080 focused on the child. What trouble are you going 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:02.340 to get into? It's all about the kids to the extent 00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:06.299 that you can. And one of the things I say, especially 00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:08.600 with my own children who are both neurodiverse, 00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:11.279 I care about their mental health and their well 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.019 -being way more than the academics. The academics 00:16:15.019 --> 00:16:17.590 will come. Definitely. And I feel like the academics 00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:19.850 can follow. One thing that I've continued to 00:16:19.850 --> 00:16:22.409 emphasize over a strand of podcast conversations 00:16:22.409 --> 00:16:25.269 here is that we have to build the culture amongst 00:16:25.269 --> 00:16:27.830 the students before we get involved as the teacher. 00:16:27.850 --> 00:16:30.009 Once the students get to validate each other, 00:16:30.149 --> 00:16:32.370 once they have peer -to -peer leadership with 00:16:32.370 --> 00:16:34.389 one another and have their own voices known, 00:16:35.139 --> 00:16:37.879 that's when they can actually then move towards 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.500 understanding their teacher. And we always had 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:43.179 that tacky line, oh, we built a family this year. 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:44.720 But you kind of did. You're building people who 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.440 know each other and are working to meet an end 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.820 goal of finish the school year successfully. 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:54.039 Definitely. The teaching the kids how to interact 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:56.539 with each other and truly building a supportive 00:16:56.539 --> 00:17:00.200 community. Exactly. Because too many times there's 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.159 the bullying or there's the... nasty comments 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:05.480 especially like in elementary school about stuff 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:08.759 whereas if we create an environment of when you 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:10.220 said that why would you say something like that 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:12.099 how do you think that person feels and kind of 00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:14.700 like go through that stuff so that we can teach 00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:17.480 our kids how to not be a bully how to not be 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:20.779 the victim how to interact and stand up for themselves 00:17:20.779 --> 00:17:23.900 and you don't have to like everybody everybody 00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:25.700 doesn't have to like you but you have to coexist 00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:29.920 and how do we coexist So you've trademarked the 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.200 stress -free IEP, which is a title that feels 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.880 almost radical in the world where special education 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.359 meetings are often filled with tension. So what 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:40.900 does stress -free really mean for your practice 00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:42.819 and the work that you do? And how do you make 00:17:42.819 --> 00:17:45.200 that same emotion come across as possible and 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.019 tangible for the families that you work with? 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.740 So the term came about, I don't even remember. 00:17:50.819 --> 00:17:52.920 One of my mornings, I was out for a walk listening 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:57.099 to a podcast. What I try to sell parents, like 00:17:57.099 --> 00:17:58.980 it's going to be stressful. It's always stressful. 00:17:59.099 --> 00:18:00.940 I stress out on my own kids. I pay meetings, 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:02.619 even though this is what I do for a living. It's 00:18:02.619 --> 00:18:05.099 stressful. But what I always like to say is that, 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:07.099 but we are there with you to take that stress 00:18:07.099 --> 00:18:10.619 for you so that you can be a parent. One of the 00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:13.039 things I say, and my senior attorney does also 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.000 now, we say all the time, be the parent. There's 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.640 nothing you can say in an IEP meeting that we 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.019 can't say what my client is trying to say is 00:18:21.019 --> 00:18:24.700 and put it in the words that we need to get to 00:18:24.700 --> 00:18:27.920 our goal. It's stressful. It's hard. But if we 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.859 remain focused on our child and the needs of 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:33.579 our child and what truly matters, you can get 00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:36.240 through it without the stress and in that collaborative 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.859 way. And just stay true to what you believe is 00:18:39.859 --> 00:18:42.519 right for your child and focus on your child. 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:45.779 I just had to ask as transparently as a question 00:18:45.779 --> 00:18:48.259 that I can. Do you find that the bureaucracy 00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:52.059 gets blurry when you have people not from the 00:18:52.059 --> 00:18:53.759 classroom sitting around that conference table? 00:18:54.099 --> 00:19:00.500 It does. Because I have had plenty of cases where 00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:03.880 central office is coming in and saying, nope, 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.960 it has to be B and C. And we're like, wait a 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.900 minute. We just had three teachers say X, Y, 00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:14.069 Z. The parents say X, Y, Z. Why are you saying 00:19:14.069 --> 00:19:17.490 ABC? Well, because this profile needs, I don't 00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:19.470 care what the profile, what you read on paper, 00:19:19.609 --> 00:19:22.130 like this is what's in the classroom. This is 00:19:22.130 --> 00:19:24.910 what we are seeing every day. The people that 00:19:24.910 --> 00:19:27.869 know, but I'll just say my senior attorney just 00:19:27.869 --> 00:19:31.450 had that case where the kid was coming in and 00:19:31.450 --> 00:19:34.430 the higher ups were, no, he needs to go to special 00:19:34.430 --> 00:19:36.250 ed and dah, dah, dah. But all of the professionals 00:19:36.250 --> 00:19:37.789 that had been working with him are like, no, 00:19:37.809 --> 00:19:40.069 no, no, he needs to mainstream. He will be fine. 00:19:40.529 --> 00:19:44.700 And she won that. for the parents because they're 00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:47.599 the ones that actually work with the kids. And 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:50.160 the higher ups, unfortunately, central office, 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.460 they have their own agenda that they have to 00:19:52.460 --> 00:19:54.980 follow. And they're more worried about the red 00:19:54.980 --> 00:19:57.119 tape and the this and the that and the class 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.220 sizes and where are we going to put them in that 00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:01.920 stuff and focused on the individual child. And 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:04.339 that's where a lot of times there can be some 00:20:04.339 --> 00:20:08.099 miscommunications and some more fighting than 00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:11.359 not. What would you say is a takeaway? that our 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:13.220 listeners can walk away with, or even the practice 00:20:13.220 --> 00:20:15.380 that they can think about at the approaching 00:20:15.380 --> 00:20:18.480 start of the new school year? Well, for parents 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:21.839 to help the educators, one of the things that 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:24.400 I say as a parent, what's really helpful for 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.259 teachers, like, look, reality, is your teacher 00:20:27.259 --> 00:20:30.180 going to read your 35 -page IEP and the seven 00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:33.539 other 35 -page IEPs and really digest and understand 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:36.339 your child in the first two weeks of school, 00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:43.019 if at all? No. And so... Do a one pager of, hey, 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:47.400 this is my kid. This is what my kid needs. This 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.259 is the main points of focus for my child. And 00:20:51.259 --> 00:20:54.619 put it towards the social, emotional and behavioral. 00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:58.339 Because if the social, emotional and behavioral 00:20:58.339 --> 00:21:01.519 needs are not met, the sensory needs, all of 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:03.480 that, then the academics are never going to happen. 00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:08.769 So, hey, teacher. If you want my child to succeed 00:21:08.769 --> 00:21:11.130 in your classroom and you want to have an easy 00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:13.549 year with my child, these are the couple of things 00:21:13.549 --> 00:21:17.789 you need to know. And then teachers, don't wait 00:21:17.789 --> 00:21:21.250 until you are like, oh, my God, with this child. 00:21:21.710 --> 00:21:23.829 Like at the first sign of like, hey, something's 00:21:23.829 --> 00:21:26.009 going on. Pick up the phone and call the parent. 00:21:26.470 --> 00:21:29.589 Go read the IEP. Talk to last year's teacher. 00:21:29.730 --> 00:21:31.710 Talk to the kid, depending on the grade level. 00:21:32.069 --> 00:21:35.289 See what's going on, because I can guarantee. 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.740 None of the kids in your classroom want to be 00:21:39.740 --> 00:21:44.079 difficult. Kids by nature do not want to be difficult. 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:48.500 There's something going on on why they're defying. 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.740 Is it because they don't understand? Because 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:53.759 they're too advanced? Because their sensory needs 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.579 aren't being met? There's too much sensory going 00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:58.180 on? Like, what is it? And figure that out. Because 00:21:58.180 --> 00:22:00.720 once you meet those needs for all of your kids, 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.420 the academics will come. Definitely. The first 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:07.579 parent conference I, ever sat in as a first -year 00:22:07.579 --> 00:22:10.160 teacher was the best one I had ever had. It was 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:14.079 a parent with a child who had an IEP. She messaged 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:16.839 all of us third, fourth week of school to set 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:20.059 up a conference just to come in person, sit us 00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:22.039 all down in front of her so we could see her, 00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:24.299 just so she could say, hi, I'm so -and -so's 00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:27.400 mom. My child is in your class. I know this is 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:28.960 where he sits in each of your rooms because he 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.259 says so. Just look out for him. And when you're 00:22:31.259 --> 00:22:33.279 observing him during class, here are some things 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:35.099 that you can do to help him feel successful with 00:22:35.099 --> 00:22:38.079 that. So here I am. Here's my child. Here's what 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:39.920 they need. I'm here if you have questions. I'm 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:41.700 your partner. Have a good year. And that was 00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:43.819 it. It was just an introduction. There was nothing 00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:46.500 accusatory, nothing after the fact. It was all 00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.480 proactive because she had been a principal. That's 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.380 why she knew. And she came in just to say, I'm 00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:53.380 here. I'm your guide. Here's my child. Here's 00:22:53.380 --> 00:22:56.319 what they need. Case closed. And when I read 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:58.279 the IEP again, I was like, OK, she talked about 00:22:58.279 --> 00:22:59.720 that. She talked about that. She talked about 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:02.259 that. And it wasn't just text on the paper anymore. 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.279 Yeah. Yeah. And that works, too, if you can get 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.359 a meeting. Sometimes it's a little challenging 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:10.000 when there's 30 kids in a class or 25 kids. But 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.420 yeah, no, a meeting works as well. Or just picking 00:23:12.420 --> 00:23:14.059 up the phone and having a phone conversation 00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:17.319 with the teacher. But that's it. It's like letting 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:20.859 the teacher know. I am that parent in the sense 00:23:20.859 --> 00:23:22.779 of I'm going to be proactive and I'm going to 00:23:22.779 --> 00:23:25.640 be your team member. I am not that parent that's 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:27.440 going to come in and accuse you of not doing 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:29.279 stuff. Now, mind you, if you're not doing stuff, 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:31.799 that's a different story. But like starting off 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:35.019 on that positive foot, on that positive thing, 00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:39.920 usually it means that you will be OK. Everybody's 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:41.559 going to have a better school year. You know, 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:43.559 the child, which is most important, and the parent 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.920 and the teacher, because you're working together 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.910 as a team. Exactly. I think that if the expectation 00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:51.410 is that the teacher and the system tries to humanize 00:23:51.410 --> 00:23:53.430 the child, then it starts with the parent humanizing 00:23:53.430 --> 00:23:56.369 their own child as well. So by taking the proactive 00:23:56.369 --> 00:23:59.990 steps to add that value to your child's needs 00:23:59.990 --> 00:24:02.009 and work as a team to make that happen is one 00:24:02.009 --> 00:24:03.390 of the best strategies that we can think about 00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:07.009 today as well. Yeah, definitely. And also, where 00:24:07.009 --> 00:24:09.509 can our listeners go to learn more? So Shefter 00:24:09.509 --> 00:24:13.740 Law PA, our website is shefterlaw.com. I have 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:17.079 links to everything on my website. I have my 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:19.980 YouTube channel, which my show Stress -Free IEP 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:24.180 is noon every Tuesday. There's links there. There's 00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:26.700 a place to register. So you get a reminder email 00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:29.319 with the link to watch the show live. I have 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:31.740 all my... prior episodes I have my youtube channel 00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:34.900 I have my facebook I have downloadables like 00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:36.940 everything's there I have a very robust website 00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:40.720 with a lot of free material for parents to educate 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.339 themselves what I say all the time is I wish 00:24:43.339 --> 00:24:46.000 i didn't have a job because that would mean the 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.279 schools are actually doing what they're supposed 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:48.859 to be doing and our kids needs are getting met 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.559 And so I want to educate parents on how to advocate 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.000 for their children so that they don't need me. 00:24:55.180 --> 00:24:57.519 And just know we're here if you do need us, because 00:24:57.519 --> 00:24:59.440 there's only so much you can do sometimes. And 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:01.279 that sometimes you need that lawyer to come in 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:04.619 and get what you need and want. But the material 00:25:04.619 --> 00:25:06.779 is there to educate yourself and make it work. 00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:11.230 So shefterlaw.com, it's all there. Thank you 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:13.130 so much for that. So that was Frances Shefter 00:25:13.130 --> 00:25:15.250 reminding us that advocacy doesn't just begin 00:25:15.250 --> 00:25:17.150 with confrontation, but rather it begins with 00:25:17.150 --> 00:25:19.450 connection. And whether you're a parent sitting 00:25:19.450 --> 00:25:22.430 at the IEP table, a teacher writing out accommodations, 00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:25.210 or a district leader reviewing a file, there 00:25:25.210 --> 00:25:27.869 is always room to bring humanity into the process. 00:25:28.250 --> 00:25:32.299 We have to see the child. beyond the paper. The 00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:34.480 stress -free IEP isn't about sidestepping our 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:36.559 truths, but also about facing them with the tools, 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.859 support, and knowledge that no one should have 00:25:38.859 --> 00:25:41.319 to navigate the system alone. So thank you, Frances, 00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:43.559 for sharing your insight, your heart, and your 00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:46.420 ongoing work to make special education not just 00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:49.000 a legal right, but a lived experience of our 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.140 students. Thank you, and thank you for having 00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:55.069 me, Joey. Thank you for joining us on the Classroom 00:25:55.069 --> 00:25:57.849 Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. If 00:25:57.849 --> 00:26:00.190 today's episode inspired you or made you think 00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:02.609 differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop 00:26:02.609 --> 00:26:05.210 a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts 00:26:05.210 --> 00:26:08.309 and stay connected with us on the at Classroom 00:26:08.309 --> 00:26:10.609 Narratives Podcast over Instagram and Facebook. 00:26:10.849 --> 00:26:14.230 Remember, together we can transform our scars 00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:17.750 into stars in education, one conversation at 00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:18.109 a time.