Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in
Education podcast, the space where education
meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in
each episode, we dive deep into the personal
stories of educators, students, leaders, and
frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities
within modern education. Whether you're just
starting your teaching journey, or are we seasoned
professionals looking for inspiration, we'll
explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent
burnout, and build trauma -informed communities
within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at
the front of the classroom as we get started.
Welcome back to the Classroom Narratives Healing
and Education Podcast, where today's guest brings
a powerful lens to the conversation, one shaped
by the classroom, the courtroom, and the kitchen
table. Frances Shefter is an education attorney,
former special education teacher, and the founder
of Shefter Law PA, where she guides families
through the often overwhelming terrain of IEPs
and 504 plans. Her trademarked stress -free IEP
approach is more than just a legal framework.
It's a mindset that empowers parents, strengthens
school partnerships, and prioritizes what matters
most, the well -being and the dignity of the
child. With over a decade of experience in the
classroom and nearly two decades in law, Frances
understands both the heartache and the hope that
can sit side by side when advocating for a child
with disabilities. She's also a parent herself,
and her empathy is matched by her clarity, helping
families navigate not just the paperwork, but
the emotions, the relationships, and the resilience
that all come with that. So today we'll explore
what it means to create safer, more collaborative
spaces for neurodiverse students, and how systems
built on compliance can be transformed into communities
of care. So Frances, welcome to the show. Thank
you, Joey. What a wonderful introduction. Thank
you so much for having me. I get that a lot.
Thank you so much for that. So Frances, let's
go ahead and start with your background. So you
were a special education teacher before you became
an attorney. And what was that period like in
your career? And what did you witness in classrooms
or even IEP meetings that made you say, wow,
this system needs a stronger advocate? So I started
in general education. I did my undergrad and
early childhood. And then I went back and got
certified in special education. One of the ones
that jump out at me most is when I was teaching
back then it was varying exceptionalities, which
was mildly intellectually disabled, emotionally
disabled, mildly and learning disabled all in
one class. That's how they did it in Florida.
I had twins. And I was looking at their test
scores. And I'm like, why are both of these twins
still here? Because one of them was higher intelligence
and average and like academic was doing fine.
And I just couldn't. And so when I went and talked
to somebody about it, they said, oh, well, we're
keeping the one back, hoping that the other will
catch up. I'm like. that's not the way we do
this and so what I did was I mainstreamed the
child into a gen-ed reading class and then into
math and the teacher came to me and was like
she belongs here and so we wound up mainstreaming
her totally and guess what happened the other
twin caught up and got mainstreamed as well Because
it was like, wait, my sister's up here. I want
to meet my sister. And so that was like my big
one in elementary school. So I was seven years
in teaching there. And then I went up to teach
at an alternative middle and high school in Palm
Beach County. And I was originally teaching math
and science. And I was teaching regular diploma
and special diploma in the same classroom of
math and science. Oh, yeah. And high school and
middle school in the same classroom. Because
being an alternative school, we only had 50 students
and that's how they allocate teachers. They don't
look at the demand of what these kids need for
education to have their IEP implemented and get
where they need to be. They look at you have
X amount of students, you get X teachers. I was
there about two or three months before I got
promoted to the special ed coordinator, long
series of events. And there it was like, I loved
it. I loved teaching. I loved the kids, but it
wasn't about the kids anymore, you know? And
so that's why I was happy to leave the classroom
because it wasn't about the kids. And a lot of
times my kids in the alternative middle and high
school, they were, you know, the kids that were
basically court ordered, go to school or go to
jail or juvie. And a lot of times the schools
try to keep the kids from coming back. And I'm
like, no, they came here for their six weeks
and now they come back. I'm like, why are you
not looking at the child? Well, they did this.
I'm like, yeah, they did that. And now we've
gotten to the point that that behavior is not
going to continue. We need to come back. And
again, it was constant fighting. And I'm like,
when did it become what might happen? When did
it become not giving these kids a chance to grow
and change and actually develop? Because that's
what education is supposed to be about. I basically
told the school, OK, you don't accept him back.
Don't try to send any more kids to me at all.
And they kind of took that back a second and
said, we'll take him back because they realized
what that would mean. And I was so happy because
a year later I saw him and he was getting all
A's and B's and was going to be a physical therapist
and was doing amazing. And that's the chance
the kid needed. He needed to get out of the school
for a little bit and then back again. And so
it was just. I realized the schools are doing
a disservice for these kids. And I was tired
of fighting the system for what these kids needed
and deserved. I love that line because I too
have realized that not only do we say that it's
not about the kids, but the kids are always the
victim of the system's failures. And it's almost
like that they're the customer in the system,
but they're always being lost to this ongoing
custody battle. Like no matter what side they're
being pulled, they're always going to be on the
losing side of that. And in thinking about that,
many educators tend to feel caught between what
they know a student needs and what they're allowed
to recommend under administrative pressure. So
what advice do you give teachers who want to
speak up but feel constrained to do so? It's
funny you say that because, of course, I still
have a lot of teacher friends and they're like,
oh, my God, I so you need to be representing
this family. But they know they can't say that.
They can't be like, hey, here. So what I always
say is tell them to go to my website and my YouTube
channel to educate. You know, the teachers can
if they know this child needs something, they
can kind of hint around to the parents of. Here's
a place to go educate yourself on how to advocate
for your child. I also tell teachers, like, be
honest with the parents. If you need to have
that side conversation with them, that's OK,
too. I always tell my clients, look, I can tell
you right now it's not the teacher. I guarantee
the teacher does have your child's best interest
at heart. Unfortunately, what I know from the
inside is it's administrator, it's central office,
it's whatever else. Don't find kids eligible.
We can't afford it anymore. We don't have the
class space or don't do this or don't, you know,
and the teachers, what are they going to do?
They can't go against their boss, even though
they want to, but that's their livelihood. So
I always say the teachers tell you something
in private. Great. We won't call the teacher
out at a meeting ever, but I will then be able
to go know what the teacher is thinking and be
able to find the data within the child's record.
to be able to fight for what that child needs.
And when I flat out ask the teacher, what do
you think about that? I kind of put them in a
spot that they don't have a choice but answering
me correctly. So I give them that out, that they
can say what they want in a way that the principal
can't get mad at them. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah. So do the roundabout way to fight for the
kids, because if you don't and the parents don't
know -do, then who does? I never realized. that
bureaucracy almost always wins. I said almost.
Bureaucracy almost always wins over the student's
best interest. And I never understood as a pre
-service educator that our hands are tied more
than we know. What are some ways that we can
work around the bureaucracy as educators? It's
a hard one. I mean, as a teacher, it was like,
shut the door and do what you need to do in the
classroom. You know what I mean? Like my principal.
She knew what was going on in my classroom, but
she didn't know what was going on in my classroom,
if that makes sense. You know, like as long as
the kids are learning and the parents are happy,
you're usually in a good space. Going around
the bureaucracy is so hard because even though
with tenure and stuff, you can't necessarily
lose your job. You can get involuntarily transferred.
There are other things that administrators and
central office can do. But what I always say
is to keep true to yourself. And keep true to
the kids. And if what you think what you're doing
and where you are, you can't make that change,
figure out if there's another way or if there's
another place that could use your expertise so
that you're staying true to yourself. And you're
still helping the children. Thank you so much
for that. Could you tell us about maybe some
specific pedagogies or strategies that have worked
in classrooms of neurodivergent learners? We
talk quite a bit about mainstream classrooms
and ways to build community and work alongside
students for mutual understanding. What are some
strategies that are also effectively transferred
into the neurodivergent classroom or the alternative
classroom space? I always found it interesting
when I went back and did my master's and I was
learning how to teach neurodivergent children,
some of the strategies they taught, I was like,
seriously, this would have worked in my gen-ed
classroom. Like, why isn't this taught? And so
for the general education teachers that have
the kids with the IEPs, that you have 25 kids
in your class, eight of which have an IEP, like
you're going to be able to teach individually,
is to look at the IEP, right? I know. Look at
the IEPs and see how you can incorporate what
that child needs into the classroom. So for example,
if you have a child that needs a movement break,
well, guess what? If you're teaching elementary
school, all your kids probably need a movement
break. And so during every transition, let's
do head, shoulders, knees, and toes. Let's run
around the classroom. Let's clean our desks.
Let's move books. Something that you're now implementing
the IEP, but you're also incorporating the whole
school. So it's true inclusion for our kids.
And it goes the same with the special education.
You have a classroom of eight kids, all with
individual IEPs. How am I going to teach them
all individually? It's find that common thread
in their IEPs and work it together into one plan.
So it sounds like standard implementation is
another way to get across what different IEPs
might be asking for. And I tried to do the same.
Like if I had an IEP where the student needed
a handout, like a printed copy, I would try if
I had the resource to make a handout for everybody
in the room and get everybody access to all the
resources that are present and available. Right.
Because that's the thing. Like you can never,
as a teacher, A parent is not going to say, you
gave my kid too much. Exactly. You know what
I mean? You did too much for them. Right, exactly.
You gave them too much support. You did too much.
Now, that being said, we don't want to hold the
kid's hands too much. We want to be able to develop.
But if you start by giving the child the notes
and then move to guided notes, you're teaching
the child how to take notes. And then you're
teaching the independence. You're doing that
scaffolding to build upon the skills. And all
kids need to do that. And when it comes to actually
building classroom climate and classroom structure,
what are some different methods that can be implemented
into the alternative classroom to maintain that?
Respect. I find the more we respect our children
and treat them not like little adults, but as
human and valued, the more they're going to respect
and value themselves and they're going to respect
and value you. I had one of the toughest classes
I was substituting at the alternative middle.
and high school. And like, even the behaviorist
was like, do you need me to support you? I'll
be there in a minute if you need anything, like
knowing what I was walking into. And I walked
into that classroom and I went, you all have
an A right now. Like what? We didn't do anything.
Like you have an A. You have an A. Now you need
to keep that A. Can I tell you? The principal
was like, what did you do? Like, how did you
get these kids to work? And that was it because
they didn't want to lose what they had already.
Forget trying to earn something. That's too hard
for them. But now that they have it, you can't
take that away. So it's that out of the box thinking
that what will motivate your children? What works
for your children? What do they need? When I
taught in the inner city, I knew a lot of my
kids didn't have breakfast in the morning. And
if they didn't come before the cafeteria closed,
they didn't eat. I don't know about you, but
if I'm over hungry, I'm not learning anything.
And so I would always have food in my classroom,
always. And all the kids always knew it. And
the cafeteria knew I did it. So they always gave
me extra cereals and milks. I had a little refrigerator
that my kids knew that if they were hungry, they
came to me and I will make sure they have food.
And I sent food home for the kids that I knew
I needed to send home over the weekend because
they wouldn't. have much food for the weekend.
And that's the thing. It's like making sure the
kids' basic needs are met helps. And then also
what do they need in the sense of how to tap
into their strengths rather than focusing on
their weaknesses so much. Love it. Love it. It's
Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I always appreciate
when we acknowledge that here together. So if
we could wave a wand and fix one systematic barrier
in the IEP or 504 process, what would that look
like? And what can everyday educators and families
do to help push forward change to continue, as
you mentioned earlier, just try to work around
the bureaucracy in a safe but manageable way?
Focus on the children. Focus on the child's needs.
We all say we're focusing on the children. We
all talk about it. But I can't tell you how many
times I've heard in an IEP meeting, oh, we don't
do that. Excuse me? It's an individual education
plan. What do you mean you don't do that? I have
one client at every single IEP meeting. She has
an eight by 10 picture of her child that she
picks up and puts on the table. This is who we're
talking about. We're not talking about this paper.
This is my child that we're talking about. And
it brings it home. I've also told clients before
or potential clients, you know what? What I'm
hearing right now, have this conversation with
the principal. The principal is going to work
with you. If you bring me in, they're going to
bring their lawyers in and then they have this
and then they have that. And then the bureaucracy
is going to get in your way. But if you have
a principal or a teacher that's willing to do
something on the out of the ordinary, do it.
Don't formalize it. Just get it done in the background.
Focus on the child. What's the best way to get
my child what my child needs? And that goes the
same for the teacher also. Like if you. want
to do something and try something, work it out
with the parent. Not necessarily saying go against
your boss all the time, but you know what? Even
if somebody finds out you're doing something,
oh, you can't do that. You know what? You're
focused on the child. What trouble are you going
to get into? It's all about the kids to the extent
that you can. And one of the things I say, especially
with my own children who are both neurodiverse,
I care about their mental health and their well
-being way more than the academics. The academics
will come. Definitely. And I feel like the academics
can follow. One thing that I've continued to
emphasize over a strand of podcast conversations
here is that we have to build the culture amongst
the students before we get involved as the teacher.
Once the students get to validate each other,
once they have peer -to -peer leadership with
one another and have their own voices known,
that's when they can actually then move towards
understanding their teacher. And we always had
that tacky line, oh, we built a family this year.
But you kind of did. You're building people who
know each other and are working to meet an end
goal of finish the school year successfully.
Definitely. The teaching the kids how to interact
with each other and truly building a supportive
community. Exactly. Because too many times there's
the bullying or there's the... nasty comments
especially like in elementary school about stuff
whereas if we create an environment of when you
said that why would you say something like that
how do you think that person feels and kind of
like go through that stuff so that we can teach
our kids how to not be a bully how to not be
the victim how to interact and stand up for themselves
and you don't have to like everybody everybody
doesn't have to like you but you have to coexist
and how do we coexist So you've trademarked the
stress -free IEP, which is a title that feels
almost radical in the world where special education
meetings are often filled with tension. So what
does stress -free really mean for your practice
and the work that you do? And how do you make
that same emotion come across as possible and
tangible for the families that you work with?
So the term came about, I don't even remember.
One of my mornings, I was out for a walk listening
to a podcast. What I try to sell parents, like
it's going to be stressful. It's always stressful.
I stress out on my own kids. I pay meetings,
even though this is what I do for a living. It's
stressful. But what I always like to say is that,
but we are there with you to take that stress
for you so that you can be a parent. One of the
things I say, and my senior attorney does also
now, we say all the time, be the parent. There's
nothing you can say in an IEP meeting that we
can't say what my client is trying to say is
and put it in the words that we need to get to
our goal. It's stressful. It's hard. But if we
remain focused on our child and the needs of
our child and what truly matters, you can get
through it without the stress and in that collaborative
way. And just stay true to what you believe is
right for your child and focus on your child.
I just had to ask as transparently as a question
that I can. Do you find that the bureaucracy
gets blurry when you have people not from the
classroom sitting around that conference table?
It does. Because I have had plenty of cases where
central office is coming in and saying, nope,
it has to be B and C. And we're like, wait a
minute. We just had three teachers say X, Y,
Z. The parents say X, Y, Z. Why are you saying
ABC? Well, because this profile needs, I don't
care what the profile, what you read on paper,
like this is what's in the classroom. This is
what we are seeing every day. The people that
know, but I'll just say my senior attorney just
had that case where the kid was coming in and
the higher ups were, no, he needs to go to special
ed and dah, dah, dah. But all of the professionals
that had been working with him are like, no,
no, no, he needs to mainstream. He will be fine.
And she won that. for the parents because they're
the ones that actually work with the kids. And
the higher ups, unfortunately, central office,
they have their own agenda that they have to
follow. And they're more worried about the red
tape and the this and the that and the class
sizes and where are we going to put them in that
stuff and focused on the individual child. And
that's where a lot of times there can be some
miscommunications and some more fighting than
not. What would you say is a takeaway? that our
listeners can walk away with, or even the practice
that they can think about at the approaching
start of the new school year? Well, for parents
to help the educators, one of the things that
I say as a parent, what's really helpful for
teachers, like, look, reality, is your teacher
going to read your 35 -page IEP and the seven
other 35 -page IEPs and really digest and understand
your child in the first two weeks of school,
if at all? No. And so... Do a one pager of, hey,
this is my kid. This is what my kid needs. This
is the main points of focus for my child. And
put it towards the social, emotional and behavioral.
Because if the social, emotional and behavioral
needs are not met, the sensory needs, all of
that, then the academics are never going to happen.
So, hey, teacher. If you want my child to succeed
in your classroom and you want to have an easy
year with my child, these are the couple of things
you need to know. And then teachers, don't wait
until you are like, oh, my God, with this child.
Like at the first sign of like, hey, something's
going on. Pick up the phone and call the parent.
Go read the IEP. Talk to last year's teacher.
Talk to the kid, depending on the grade level.
See what's going on, because I can guarantee.
None of the kids in your classroom want to be
difficult. Kids by nature do not want to be difficult.
There's something going on on why they're defying.
Is it because they don't understand? Because
they're too advanced? Because their sensory needs
aren't being met? There's too much sensory going
on? Like, what is it? And figure that out. Because
once you meet those needs for all of your kids,
the academics will come. Definitely. The first
parent conference I, ever sat in as a first -year
teacher was the best one I had ever had. It was
a parent with a child who had an IEP. She messaged
all of us third, fourth week of school to set
up a conference just to come in person, sit us
all down in front of her so we could see her,
just so she could say, hi, I'm so -and -so's
mom. My child is in your class. I know this is
where he sits in each of your rooms because he
says so. Just look out for him. And when you're
observing him during class, here are some things
that you can do to help him feel successful with
that. So here I am. Here's my child. Here's what
they need. I'm here if you have questions. I'm
your partner. Have a good year. And that was
it. It was just an introduction. There was nothing
accusatory, nothing after the fact. It was all
proactive because she had been a principal. That's
why she knew. And she came in just to say, I'm
here. I'm your guide. Here's my child. Here's
what they need. Case closed. And when I read
the IEP again, I was like, OK, she talked about
that. She talked about that. She talked about
that. And it wasn't just text on the paper anymore.
Yeah. Yeah. And that works, too, if you can get
a meeting. Sometimes it's a little challenging
when there's 30 kids in a class or 25 kids. But
yeah, no, a meeting works as well. Or just picking
up the phone and having a phone conversation
with the teacher. But that's it. It's like letting
the teacher know. I am that parent in the sense
of I'm going to be proactive and I'm going to
be your team member. I am not that parent that's
going to come in and accuse you of not doing
stuff. Now, mind you, if you're not doing stuff,
that's a different story. But like starting off
on that positive foot, on that positive thing,
usually it means that you will be OK. Everybody's
going to have a better school year. You know,
the child, which is most important, and the parent
and the teacher, because you're working together
as a team. Exactly. I think that if the expectation
is that the teacher and the system tries to humanize
the child, then it starts with the parent humanizing
their own child as well. So by taking the proactive
steps to add that value to your child's needs
and work as a team to make that happen is one
of the best strategies that we can think about
today as well. Yeah, definitely. And also, where
can our listeners go to learn more? So Shefter
Law PA, our website is shefterlaw.com. I have
links to everything on my website. I have my
YouTube channel, which my show Stress -Free IEP
is noon every Tuesday. There's links there. There's
a place to register. So you get a reminder email
with the link to watch the show live. I have
all my... prior episodes I have my youtube channel
I have my facebook I have downloadables like
everything's there I have a very robust website
with a lot of free material for parents to educate
themselves what I say all the time is I wish
i didn't have a job because that would mean the
schools are actually doing what they're supposed
to be doing and our kids needs are getting met
And so I want to educate parents on how to advocate
for their children so that they don't need me.
And just know we're here if you do need us, because
there's only so much you can do sometimes. And
that sometimes you need that lawyer to come in
and get what you need and want. But the material
is there to educate yourself and make it work.
So shefterlaw.com, it's all there. Thank you
so much for that. So that was Frances Shefter
reminding us that advocacy doesn't just begin
with confrontation, but rather it begins with
connection. And whether you're a parent sitting
at the IEP table, a teacher writing out accommodations,
or a district leader reviewing a file, there
is always room to bring humanity into the process.
We have to see the child. beyond the paper. The
stress -free IEP isn't about sidestepping our
truths, but also about facing them with the tools,
support, and knowledge that no one should have
to navigate the system alone. So thank you, Frances,
for sharing your insight, your heart, and your
ongoing work to make special education not just
a legal right, but a lived experience of our
students. Thank you, and thank you for having
me, Joey. Thank you for joining us on the Classroom
Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. If
today's episode inspired you or made you think
differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop
a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts
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Remember, together we can transform our scars
into stars in education, one conversation at
a time.