Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in
Education podcast, the space where education
meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in
each episode, we dive deep into the personal
stories of educators, students, leaders, and
frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities
within modern education. Whether you're just
starting your teaching journey, or are a seasoned
professional looking for inspiration, we'll
explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent
burnout, and build trauma -informed communities
within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at
the front of the classroom as we get started.
Welcome, everyone. Today, I'm so grateful to
be joined by someone whose work is deeply rooted
in purpose, clarity, and the kind of leadership
that doesn't just inspire. It seeks to transform.
Stephanie Kunkel is a leadership development
specialist, a mental health advocate, and the
founder of Perspective Shifting LLC. With a background
in both organizational leadership and personal
resilience, she empowers individuals and teams
to realign their values, build sustainable practices,
and show up as the most authentic selves. Through
keynotes, workshops, and her thriving community
platform, Stephanie has helped countless changemakers
unlock not only their potential, but also their
peace. Whether you're leading a classroom, a
company, or your own next chapter, her insights
will meet you exactly where you are. Stephanie,
welcome to the show. I'm thrilled that you're
here with us. That was a great introduction.
I love it. Thank you so much. My pleasure. So
Stephanie and I met through a mutual contact,
and I wanted to go ahead and start today's episode
by giving a shout out to Virginia Daniel, who
is the director of the Throne in the Classroom
segment. And I will also link the Throne in the
Classroom here to see work that I had done with
Virginia back in 2022. And Virginia set up an
introduction between me and Stephanie. And what
I wanted to do with Stephanie first, since reading
your memoir, should we call it a memoir? Yeah,
I think that's appropriate. Part one, maybe.
Once reading your memoir, Perspectives Through
Broken Glass, I was immersed in the acknowledgement
that Stephanie dedicates to herself and other
survivors of trauma about grief, loss, and finding
meaning within oneself to move forward from a
traumatic instance or several traumatic instances
as well. I wanted to start there. And Stephanie,
if you can go ahead and just tell us a little
bit more about your background, what your work
does to center on perspective shifting. And also
tell us a little bit about Perspectives Through
Broken Glass as a memoir. Yeah, thanks so much.
So for me. I have a background in leadership
development, and that's what my master's degree
is in. And in 2011, I started counseling for
depression because I was having suicidal thoughts.
And I was also pregnant with my daughter and
had a 12 -month -old son and was like, they need
me to be okay. And I go into a little bit more
about that in my book. But needless to say, I
started cognitive behavioral therapy, which was
a large shift in my life. And really what it
did for me was helped me to gain perspective.
And I think that's been basically my life mission
since then. I've always had a little bit of a
rebellious streak or played like devil's advocate
with people when I was talking with them. But
cognitive behavioral therapy gave me the tools
to do that with love and compassion and really
allowed me to not just do that for others, but
also for myself. And so After I moved through
a job change and through coaching and developing
leadership development programs for corporate
America, I really found that there was a little
bit of a lack of understanding and acknowledgement,
especially around trauma victims, people with
depression, severe anxiety. in the corporate
space. And I think it's even more prevalent today.
I think the latest Gallup poll showed that one
in three Americans over the age of 18 have been
diagnosed with depression. So we're no longer
in this area of saying, we've got symptoms. And
when my book came out in 2022, it was 20 to 25
% of people were experiencing symptoms of depression.
And that's one in five. And so now we've moved
way up the scale and we're not just experiencing
symptoms, but we're actually getting diagnosed,
which is great. But it also gives you some indication
of where we are right now in our society. The
other acknowledgement that I have is that it
takes approximately 11 years from the start of
symptoms to treatment. So we look at all of the
trauma that we've all experienced globally. In
the last five years alone, we kind of have a
lot to think about as we move forward and how
we handle people. And you and I talked about
this, how we handle people with care, right?
As we go forward. I'm remembering a portion of
your text that really stuck with me. You mentioned
that you started in your mind to develop a plan
for the end of life and you never acted on that,
but. There is a rationalization that you came
up with as to why that plan made sense, for example,
like your kids, but that also prevented you from
acting because you knew that you would be the
one to best raise your children. I'm going to
quote Sue Klebold, if I can. Sue Klebold is the
mother of Columbine perpetrator Dylan Klebold,
who has since become a major brain health advocate.
She says that when somebody is in that state,
they are in what she calls to be a stage four.
brain health crisis. And she says brain health
as something that is so concrete that should
be acknowledged just as any other part of the
body. And what I'm wondering, Stephanie, is that
when somebody gets to that point, what does that
look like for the person who's in crisis and
for their loved ones who may either be missing
the signs or even want to lean into it, but may
not know how and what to do to help? What does
that look like? And I wonder if you can walk
us through that. Well, I think if I'm being honest,
I talk about certain scenarios in my book. But
this was something that I'd been battling for
a really long time. So this was not anything
that was abnormal to me. And actually, I'm not
laying blame here. I want to make that clear.
But this was something I was raised with, right?
So my mother had suicidal ideation. And she never
acted on it, but it was a constant reminder in
my life that when things got rough, we just didn't
want to be here anymore. And I was at a point
in my life when I hit that crisis mode where
I was like, I really need help. Where I was just
having realizations that my mother was not happy
still at her age. My sister was struggling and
my friends were struggling. And here I was struggling.
And it was one of those aspects of what's it
all for. So very clearly, I didn't have or I
didn't feel like at that moment I had a purpose
or I had something to give me hope or feelings
of there is something worth fighting for here.
And I will never forget the time that I sat down
with my therapist and we had a very open conversation
the first day I was there because I didn't I
was nervous. I think a lot of people. are afraid
when they're in that like stage four space to
even ask for help from a professional because
it was only 75 years ago that we were institutionalizing
people when they did ask for help, right? So
even though we've come a very long way since
then, it is still very stigmatized. And I had
two children as well. And so I didn't want my
children to be taken away from me. And so asking
for help was a big step. And I was very clear
with my therapist that I didn't know if I should
even be there because I was not trusting. And
then on top of that, that I felt like it was
just something that everybody went through. And
I remember she said, hold on a second. Do you
think? That when things are difficult, when you
hit this wall, when things are in chaos, that
everybody feels that way, that they just they
shouldn't be here anymore. And I said, yeah,
don't they? So I think one of the challenges
for people who are in that state is a mixture
of things. One, especially if it's been normalized,
which it really has. Like in our society, we
have normalized it. And I have another caveat
because I go back and forth between this. It
is normal. Like one in three people have been
diagnosed with depression. So it is normal. And
also we normalize it to the extent of thinking
like, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
You don't need help with this, right? Like we've
all been there. We've all gone through this.
So what we do is we normalize it to the extreme
to make people think that they're just weak if
they're having these thoughts or they just should
be able to snap out of it. So that's the number
one, I think, challenge when you're in it to
recognize that everyone has these issues. Yes
and no, right? Like we were beginning to understand
that the management of these negative thought
processes or thoughts of self -harm really do
need professional help. And it's not just you
go to the doctor when you have. heartburn or
a migraine. We go to the doctor just for regular
checkups. Why are we not doing that for our mental
health and our emotional brain? So that's the
number one path on that. The other piece of this
is this idea, especially depending on how we've
been raised, the trauma that we've been through.
And I don't even want to say that because really
it is a societal thing. Like we don't rely on
each other anymore. 500, 600, 700 years ago,
our communities were our lifelines. However,
we also got really good at making sure that we
kept our stuff to ourself, right? So we know
like domestic violence, trauma, rape, like all
of those things, we're still battling stigma
to have conversations about despite everything.
That we understand about it now. So there's this
illusion that if we share these things, we're
burdening other people or we're laying our problems
at their feet. And that was actually something
that it took me a really long time in therapy.
And even sometimes now, 14 years later, to remember
that it's okay to open up to other people and
share with them. And so there's that aspect and
then couple that with. the traditional coaching
that we've been having within the universe and
how that isn't always serving. A lot of people
think, well, just switch your mindset, like just
look at things in a positive way. And that's
great. And there is power to that from a brain
chemistry standpoint. But when we are having
negative thoughts and we're in a space of that,
when someone offers us a different perspective
without understanding where we're coming from,
it can be invalidating and it can make us reluctant
to share those thoughts again because we don't
want to be the negative Nancy, right? If there's
any Nancys listening, I don't mean you specifically,
right? But we get into this space where it is
very difficult for us to open up about it. So
I leave those three aspects of if you're in that
space. If you're contemplating suicide or you've
ever thought of suicide or you're just stuck
in what I call the black hole of depression and
you feel like everything takes a massive amount
of effort, there are so many resources and so
many people out there who can help you. You reach
out because that's how you end up getting out
of that space. sometimes it takes people a little
bit to find that right fit too. So if you reach
out and that person doesn't register and doesn't
resonate with you and you're like, oh, I never
want to go to therapy again, try somebody else.
So you asked kind of a two -pronged question
here. So that's for the person who is struggling.
For family members, first and foremost, I know
that there's nothing I'm going to say here that's
going to alleviate guilt. When someone is in
that space, there is not a whole lot that their
family members can do when they won't open up
about it. They won't lay their problems at your
feet. They don't want to burden you. They don't
want to share what they're going through because
they don't want you to have to process what they're
going through. And we've had conversations in
the past several years around what trauma dumping
looks like. So people who have experienced trauma
now are back to that space where they don't want
to talk about it because they don't want to trauma
dump on people. And so there's this aspect of
one recognizing that it isn't just a family member
or a good friend or significant other issue when
someone takes their own life. It's really a societal
issue. And it's not just your guilt or your responsibility
to carry. It's all of ours. We all have to learn
how to handle people better so that we don't
have to experience these harsh and dark things
without the support of other people. We aren't
meant to go through these things alone. And also,
we have conditioned our... friends and family
members and everyone around us has been conditioned
to think that they have to do it alone. So if
you're carrying forward that guilt and you've
experienced something like that, the number one
thing I can offer you as a way for you to process
and carry and move forward in a way that honors
someone that you've lost is really to do your
best to be transparent and open with your own
mental health. to be transparent and open about
the fact that this is a thing that we have to
talk about it. And make sure you're keeping resources
in your back pocket. Like if you work with an
organization that has an EAP company, put that
information literally in your back pocket and
keep it with you at all times because you don't
ever know who you're going to run into or who
you're going to experience. And it's not everyone's
job to be that therapeutic person for someone
who's struggling. But it is everyone's job to
be compassionate and kind and to understand that
we just don't have a full understanding of what's
going on with someone at any given moment in
time. I'm thinking about, again, that talk that
I heard from Sue Klebold. And when her son committed
a murder -suicide at Columbine High School in
1999, she thought for years, and probably still
is 26 years later, she's thinking, how could
I not know? How could I not know? How did I miss
those signs? And frankly, after the loss of my
own very good friend to suicide in 2018, I still,
seven years out, think about those what -ifs
all the time. Like, what if I had looked closer?
What if there were things that I had missed that
I could have helped him through? And as a person,
it really plagues me. It guilts me. And in my
first year of teaching, I think it did more harm
than good. Because now I'm up against the system
that I learned really wanted to bury the pain
that they saw our children see. And as somebody
who had just witnessed the tragedies that come
from that, I tried to overturn that, but with
significant failure in attempting to do so. I'm
just thinking for those of us that carry that
grief into both our personal and professional
lives, especially if there are educators out
there that have lost their own students to suicide.
Again, our hearts go out to you and we're wondering
how that has carried you through your own professional
teachings. How can we take that guilt and make
it into something more meaningful with what we
do and give a purpose? If you just first and
foremost, look at the stages of grief, right?
And you just look at where we go through. Guilt
is actually a little bit a part of that denial
aspect. So one is healing, really taking it upon
ourselves to lead by example. That's number one.
I work with people through every industry, right?
And just anywhere from state agencies to corporations
to schools. And we have to be right with ourself
before we can lead by example. We have to understand
what our healing process looks like. In regards
to the guilt aspect, though, it's normal. And
we lay that at people's feet, too. And when you
think about Sue Klebold, there was a lot of talk
in the media about how did she miss this? She
was his mother, right? Like, where was she? What
she was, she did that. And we still do that when
we see. mass shooting and suicide. And we see
where was the family? Where were the friends?
Where were these people? And we also have to
recognize that again, like I said, these people
weren't screaming at the top of their lungs saying,
I need your mental health support. Please get
me to a psychologist. So there's, we take that
guilt on ourselves and that's how we learn. And
that's the biggest thing that I can offer. any
of your listeners, especially your educators,
is just understanding. We don't know what we
don't know until we need to know it. And sometimes
we miss the mark and that happens. We're not
perfect. If we were perfect, we would all be
robots and the world would be very dull and uninteresting.
But the reality of it is we're going to miss
the mark. We're going to miss signs. We're going
to not quite understand things. At the same time,
we all should be seeing a therapist. I'm sorry,
but I don't care how normal you think you are.
You still should be seeing someone. Again, we
go to the doctor on a yearly basis, sometimes
every six months for checkups and check -ins.
And it just makes sense to be at least maintaining
your mental health in some way, shape or form.
And I recognize some of you might be listening
right now going. Yeah, there's no way I need
that support. I understand that. And if you're
listening to this and you're still harboring
guilt from something traumatic happening, recognize
that you could step into one of those roles too
and help other people through that. We all need
to step up and support and help in our own ways.
And whether that's starting a podcast or becoming
a therapist or writing your story down, whether
that is just... making it a point to reach out
to one friend a day. There's so many different
ways that you can unpack positive change in the
world. We are healing generations of trauma right
now that have been passed down over and over
and over and over again. So we have to be patient
with ourselves. We have to understand that it's
going to take a while. And we may not truly ever
see in our lifetimes, Joey and I's lifetimes,
but I do believe that it will be something that
our kids get to participate in fully. We've had
some time at the beginning of our conversation
here talking about pain. Let's go ahead and pivot
our conversation into solution and purpose. And
get a little bit more of the resilience coming
in there. So I wanted you to talk with us a little
bit about some of the work that you are doing
in your professional space. And in doing so,
how do you guide leaders and yourself as well
with areas that might feel out of sync, such
as work, passion, fulfillment? And how can our
mindset help readjust what we're trying to accomplish?
Yeah, I love that question. Listen, we're all.
whole entire human beings, right? We're all whole
people who have many different areas and many
facets of who we are, how we show up in the world,
what we experience, what we enjoy, the things
we have to do that we don't even enjoy. And with
that comes a level of care that has to happen
for us to be okay. And so I've frequently been
talking about the idea of work -life balance
and how I want to remove the word work from that
because it's not work -life balance. It's life
balance, period, right? There's work is one tiny
sliver of our pie and we make it so much about
who we are. If you think about, if you go to
a networking meeting and you meet with other
people and they ask, hi, I'm so -and -so, what's
your name? And you're like, oh, blah, blah, blah.
I'm Stephanie. And they're like, what do you
do? That's the whole conversation. But that's
not who we are. That's not what we're here to
do. And I am so fortunate to be in a diverse
set of communities and groups that remind me
every single day that my purpose is quite literally
simply to exist. And I talked a little bit about,
I didn't have a purpose when I was in the depths
of depression, but really our purpose is to experience
life. And that was one of the things that I was
missing when I was in the depths of depression,
because there was no experiencing life. It was,
I got up, I went to work, I came home. When I
started coming out of depression, my life was
just full of dysfunction in general. I didn't
realize that I hadn't been seeing color for a
really, really long time. And so when I came
out of my depression and I was just driving down
the road, I suddenly started realizing that like,
oh, there are all of these different shades of
purple and blue and green. And even in the pavement,
there were specks of black and grays and whites.
you don't acknowledge and you don't see it. And
when I first saw it, I was like, whoa. And then
it's an overwhelming gratitude and appreciation.
And then also just this abrupt recognition of
the absolute dysfunction that you've just pulled
yourself from, which is. It's a two -pronged
thing, right? Because then on one hand, you grieve
what you didn't get to experience all of those
years that you were in it. And then on the other
hand, you're like, oh my gosh, this is what it's
like. This is what I've been fighting for the
last three, four, five, six, 10 years. So it
was an interesting experience for sure. So what
would you say to those who feel absolutely defined
by what they do? If we're talking about teachers,
right? Exactly. Yep. That is a huge part of your
life. I don't think that there's a moment, I
would assume anyway, that most teachers get up
in the morning to the point that they go to bed
at night where they're not thinking about their
students. They're not thinking about their day.
They're not planning things out. But, and as
a teacher, you are one person and you have a
whole life outside of teaching. And you may love
teaching and it may be completely defining who
you are and it may be your life's mission to
deal with kids. But if schools closed down tomorrow,
what would you do? And the one question I really
love to ask people when we think about what would
we really want to do is if money, time, energy
wasn't an issue, where would you go? What would
you do? Who would you see? What would that experience
look like if we didn't have to show up to work
every single day? What would that experience
look like? And most of the people who are listening
who are teachers would find themselves back in
that space where they would be teaching young
children and they would be nurturing and they
would be caring for people. But even nurturers
and people who care for people and people who
teach still need their own creative pursuits.
It's something that I have had to learn. I don't
want to say the hard way, but I've repeatedly
learned that creativity is where the biggest
part of our lessons come from as humans. And
we have to be able to find the fun and the creative
parts of life, even outside of our life's missions.
Definitely. I appreciate that. And then when
moving into the workspace in an era, especially
of all different kinds of socio -political unrest,
where mental health has really become a major
visible prominence in front of us. How have you
seen organizations really starting to either
evolve or even fall short with responding to
employee well -being? And what would you advise
different companies as a way to really just address
that stigma and embrace who's in front of them
as employers? Really good question. And it is
really a difficult topic right now. We're seeing
a lot of attacks on mental health and DEI, neurodiversity.
There's a lot of conversations saying that we
shouldn't be embracing these things. The more
that we push back against the idea that we have
to cater to our mental health and we have to
embrace neurodiversity, the harder it's going
to be for us to resolve those issues. If there
is an administrator listening or a leader in
a corporation listening right now who's like,
I know that this is an issue. I've listened to
this podcast. I know we need to be addressing
it, but I don't know how. It starts with you.
Period. It starts with you. It starts with you
doing the work to recognize your own traumas,
your own need for healing, your own life balance,
the things that you need in your life. It starts
with you taking the initiative to be open and
vulnerable with the people that are in your organization,
with your board of directors who's going to make
decisions. It starts with you being the advocate.
And if you don't have an administrator listening,
and you are a teacher in a school, or you are
a sales associate in an organization, it also
starts with you. That's where it has to happen.
I think that this quote gets worn out, and I
think it does because it's so true. But Gandhi
said, we have to be the change we want to see
in the world. And if we aren't being that change,
why would anybody else change? If we aren't the
person leading the charge through our own actions
and behaviors and advocacy, no one else is going
to take up that torch. And it has to do with
your mental health too, right? Like if you're
not the one who's taking action to get help and
be happy, no one else is going to do that for
you. So it really starts with us as the individual
level. And then in our smaller communities, and
then it goes from there. So I want to know if
you can tell us a little bit about the work that
you're also doing with Perspective Shifting LLC
and some of your online resources that listeners
can follow up with, including your Thrive Guide
and other resources as well. Yeah. So we talk
about life balance, the Thrive Guide. It's all
about finding that and also a little bit about
finding your purpose too. So I appreciate that
you mentioned that. That's one of my favorite
tools. And I do that with clients. I do that
with organizations and leaders. And it's really
part of my signature program, just understanding
where we are and checking in and where we want
to go. But that's a lot of what I do. The reason
I chose Perspective Shifting as the name for
my business is it's really helping people. to
see a different perspective we whether it's personally
and in their lives i have a trauma -informed
coaching certification and a cognitive behavioral
coaching certification and that comes up because
as individuals we have whole lives and we're
whole people and so dealing with that and helping
them to see the better side of them and sometimes
see the things that they don't want to see about
themselves that will help them grow. And I do
that for organizations too. So helping them to
understand the bigger picture, implement leadership
development programs that help their leaders
to connect with. individuals and connect with
their staff and connect with their clients and
helping entrepreneurs, which is really my sweet
spot right now. I do speaking engagements and
I do consulting for larger organizations, but
my favorite thing to do right now is working
with entrepreneurs who are mission -driven, dedicated
to rebelling against systems that we have and
disrupting spaces so we can rebuild better and
just helping them to remember that you can be
mission -driven all day long. But you have to
take time for yourself. You have to be your own
person. And again, we have to lead by example.
We have to show up in the ways that we want to.
So you can find any of those resources on my
websites. So stephaniekunkle.com is my website
where you can find more information about me
and the specific services that I offer. And then
Perspective Shifters. Think about it as a person.
PerspectiveShifters .com is my company website.
And you'll find resources on how to connect with
us and some of the amazing people we have in
our community that do really awesome speaking
engagements and trainings. And then we just rebranded
and relaunched the Rebel Dream Lab, which is
a place for entrepreneurs to be able to come
and get support, especially entrepreneurs who
are really trying to disrupt and are mission
driven and helping other people to make big change.
Those links will also be available in our show
notes as well. Stephanie, thank you so much again
for sharing your wisdom and your warmth with
us today and your ability to reframe burnout,
leadership, and self -alignment as opportunities
for growth over guilt is really a breath of fresh
air for us. For those of us listening here who
want to continue learning from Stephanie's work,
be sure to check out Perspective Shifting LLC.
follow her online, and dive into her Thrive Guide
and Leadership Resources. So until next time,
keep leading with compassion, stay open to the
shift, and remember that clarity isn't a destination,
but rather it's a daily practice. Thank you for
joining us on the Classroom Narratives Healing
and Education Podcast. If today's episode inspired
you or made you think differently, I'd love to
hear from you. Drop a comment or review. wherever
you listen to podcasts, and stay connected with
us on the At Classroom Narratives podcast over
Instagram and Facebook. Remember, together we
can transform our scars into stars in education,
one conversation at a time.