Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in
Education podcast, the space where education
meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in
each episode, we dive deep into the personal
stories of educators, students, leaders, and
frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities
within modern education. Whether you're just
starting your teaching journey, or are a seasoned
professionals looking for inspiration, we'll
explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent
burnout, and build trauma -informed communities
within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at
the front of the classroom as we get started.
Welcome back to the podcast. And today I'm so
privileged to be talking with Dr. Guiliana Conti,
who is a director of professional development
at Music Workshop. And she's also a music educator
herself and advocates for the people doing powerful
work around music and student well -being. So
our conversation today is going to take a look
at how music can support things like emotional
regulation, student identity, and this conversation
is also especially for teachers who don't focus
on music every day in their classrooms. We're
going to be getting into today some of the.
impacts of trauma and how music plays a solution
and bridging classroom connections. So if you
have ever heard a song that's brought you to
a special place in your soul, then this segment
is going to be for you and seeing how your own
students can also experience that same emotion,
but right under your guidance in your own classroom.
So Juliana, thanks for being our guide today.
Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having
me. What a great introduction. It's so great
to have you and to be working together. So, Guiliana
and I were talking a couple months back, and
what I was so surprised is that even though her
work is on professional development through Music
Workshop, a lot of what she puts emphasis on
is actually how trauma plays a role in the classroom
itself. So, let's start with the core of what
you're working on. I'm curious that a lot of
our conversations really focus throughout this
podcast on the idea of social and emotional learning,
or SEL. In terms of music, how does that shape
how SEL can work in the classroom? And do you
have a story of your own as to how that's assisted
what you've done in the classroom as well? So
with music being one of those elements in everyday
life that people turn to so often for emotional
support themselves. What we see is an opportunity
for the discipline of music and music education
to step in as a greater resource and tool for
social well -being. And that really comes down
to teaching the individual child. I taught K
-5 mostly, general elementary music. At the same
time, there was this larger shift in their personalities
that I saw was. bigger than just the social and emotional elements. There was a sense of self that grew that I think is core to well-being. Where when we are confident about ourselves, we know how to take care of ourselves, and we know how to self-regulate, we just feel better we become better humans which can allow us to become more socially responsible and more emotionally regulated.. Could you tell us a time
when there was a moment that has confirmed what
you do with music in the classroom with student
well -being? Was it through allowing students
to experiment with instruments or maybe you play
a song for them that they had a reaction to?
What was that moment like? And how could other
teachers have that same duplication for themselves?
That's actually why I went to grad school. When
I was teaching, I was at a school that had a
lot of international students. And so many of
these students would join the school. not speaking
English, and I would watch them struggle, not
just socially because they couldn't engage with
their peers, but to expect a child to be learning
math and language arts and history and all of
the core subjects when they're also learning
the language is crazy to me. But some schools
are just not set up to adequately support those
students in the way that they need. And what
I found was by putting them in charge of their
own learning and asking what they were interested
in learning. And I would go through the parents
to help translate that these students not only
came alive in the classroom and I got to see
a whole new side of them, but other students
had something more concrete to connect to. Concrete
example that I can say is I had the student that
had just moved from Russia to where I was teaching
in California and had a lot of behavioral challenges,
acting out, physical aggression, breakdowns.
And it's not confusing when you think about what
it must feel like as a second grader, not speaking
the language of your environment. So understandably,
this poor kid was just. All over the place, being
asked to sit quietly in class and learn when
he's probably listening to what sounds like the
equivalent of the Peanuts teacher. So at some
point I asked this boy who was super sweet with
me what he would want to learn. And in his limited
English at the time, he said that he had a favorite
song. And so the mom came in. She and I built
this little slideshow for his class. where they
learned it's a basically the song oh my gosh
i can't believe i'm going to sing this i don't
want to be a duck so I clap something like that
it's like a nursery rhyme about being a duck
and flapping your wings and there was a Russian
version of it And now there was this exchange
between this boy who had not been getting along
with his classmates, his classroom teacher seeing
him in a whole new light, and these other students
in the class also learning about different places
in the world that share the same song but in
different languages, which for some reason at
that time just really opened this door for them.
From that day on, he had friends. It was like
they humanized him. from being this scary kid
that they can't understand. And because of that
music exchange, we transitioned to being able
to sing and learn other children's songs and
games. It became this test where they would start
one and then him and his mom would be like, oh
my gosh, we have that too. And then they would
sing the Russian version of it. And it was so
adorable. It's a second grade. I got to know
him for another year and a half and he transformed.
He was a totally different child from then on.
And that's just one example in many that then
drove me to apply to grad school where I wanted
to understand the relationship between music
and personality development and social integration
and identity. We all can experience, like you
did as well, Dr. Conti, in your classroom, that
you can still communicate with music. And as
you said, it built bridges between all the cultures
that were in front of you. Music listening is
such a vehicle for learning. It's something that
we all do on our own time anyway. So why not
incorporate that in the classroom? Any subject
teacher. can learn how to incorporate music listening
for many reasons in their class. And that, I
think, has been lost in our formal music education
for quite some time that we are trying to bring
back. Definitely. And I mentioned this on a recent
podcast with Megan Farris, the host of the podcast
Sing, Coach, Conduct. One thing that Megan and
I were talking about is how I also use daily
song within our classroom as well. And usually
I'm a quirky lover of show tunes. So I'll typically
do these really offbeat Disney show tunes for
our lessons. And I've realized that with music,
I communicate to artists or rather through artists
that I know that my students like. There are
some Lady Gaga songs that talk about abuse,
which go with some of the trauma stories we read
in novels like The Hate U Give. And with that,
it begins to form that mutual language as to
how we can check in with well -being as well.
And throughout your PD, you've mentioned something
about student well -being and how music can support
the wellness of a student. So I wanted to hear
a bit more about, if we could, about what student
well -being really means to you and how music
can help us not only recognize our students,
but also help us explore this relationship as
the classroom teachers between trauma and regulation?
Great question. Yeah, I'm just so happy to be
talking about this. So when it comes to student
well -being, there's formal definitions. You
can look to, I think, the World Health Organization
for a formal definition of well -being. You can
go into scholarship as a teacher. When I think
about student well -being, I think about someone
who is not distracted by any plight in their
life and is able to find interest and engagement
throughout their school day and isn't in survival
mode. As someone with considerable childhood
trauma myself, I don't have memories of many
years of my life where I am just picturing. the
little girl I was sitting mindlessly in class,
totally absent from the material being delivered.
I got really poor grades for a long time because
of it. And this is from having two parents with
serious health conditions. So as an only child
with no one else in the country as family, it
was really isolating. And I think about that
little girl and when she would go home, She would
use music as a way to ground herself. And I think
that's where I went from being that little girl
to being this advocate for music listening. Because
for me to be well was me finding music that was
relatable. that connected to something more deep
in me that i couldn't vocalize i didn't know
how to ask for help i didn't know that there
was help out there i honestly didn't even know
that i was broken i just knew that i had to get
through each day I had responsibilities like
homework and practicing my viola that for whatever
reason continued, even brushing my teeth. I resented
all of it because I was like, how are you going
to expect me to care for these adults who parentify
me and have to witness like my father getting
a liver transplant and basically dying multiple
times and flatlining and just the amount of chaos
in my personal life. Everything else felt like
a joke. And for students. We don't know what
they go home to. We don't know what is happening
in their lives that they are bringing into the
classroom. And there's so many statistics about
student behavior that is actually symptoms of
trauma that manifest as disciplinary issues that
also lead to perpetuating the school -to -prison
pipeline. We punish kids for symptoms of trauma.
Having come from that background myself, what
I want for students in their well -being is to
feel like there are resources out there so that
they can vocalize asking for help. They can know
what's happening in their bodies and be able
to assign names to it. And that they don't live,
like I said, in fight or flight survival mode
all day. And it's also fight, flight, fawn, and
freeze. There are new ones out there too. And
so teachers, be mindful of that fawn. If you
have a teacher's pet, that could also be a survival
mechanism. Anyways. My point being that well
-being is for students in school being able to
actually engage and not disassociate. And what
our PD course covers is a lot of the symptoms
that teachers may not understand that are adverse
childhood experiences or signs of trauma or toxic
stress in students that may be brushed off as
just poor student behavior when those students
actually need different resources. capacity for
music to be one of those resources is for multiple
reasons. One of them, it's not direct. as it
would be if we were to sit down a student and
say hey what's going on in your life are you
okay what's wrong what are you feeling what's
happening in your body right now some students
don't respond to that they get afraid they don't
know how to talk or there's a legitimate threat
in their life or they're unable to talk about
it whereas music is a vehicle that communicates
so much without being direct there's like the
cognitive and neurochemical and nervous response
systems that have been shown to become activated
through music listening and for example like
when we get the chills when we listen to music
that's a physiological response connected to
how we're hearing and processing it mentally
and there was a part of our professional development
that talks about this great mechanism in music
for people who have experienced trauma or for
people who have challenging emotions or intrusive
thoughts, where when listening to music that
is sad or scary, there's so much research dedicated
to trying to understand why sad music feels good.
Part of it is because you get to experience the
threat in the sound of the music, which I think
is part of why cinematic music is also so profound
and has such a great effect on how we process
movies. The way that we respond to that emotionally
is like being put in a threatening situation
and then coming out of it safely. Students are
in a developmental stage in their lives. that
are setting them up for the rest of their life
to understand their place in society and what
kind of threat they're under. And if we think
about human evolution, being able to identify
threats is how we survive. And for students who
are living in conditions or have experiences
that have altered their understanding of threats,
which is definitely the case for trauma, one
of the best ways that they can learn to stop
being so hypervigilant all the time and anticipate
threats constantly, which I'll tell you is incredibly
distracting when you're in school trying to learn,
is to expose them to unreal threats, which music
can be. Like when we think about, if you were
to listen to Mars by Gustav Holst, it's a standard.
piece of music that's used in films all the time
to show scenes of war and chaos, and it's really
intense. The body responds to that in a similar
way it responds to threats, except when the piece
is over and your nervous system comes back to
equilibrium, you're retraining your mind and
your body to understand that other kinds of threats
can exist and you're still going to be okay.
Students need to understand and experience. being
okay despite there being threats and fear, whether
or not they're actually in existence, because
so many times students learn to be hypervigilant
to where fear is part of their everyday life,
even though maybe that threat that trained it
in them has been gone for a long time. Music
is a way for us to practice being scared or being
vulnerable, being emotional. and it being safe.
Music also provides us senses of safety. And
I think nostalgia comes into that big time. Teachers
are in a position at this stage in children's
lives when the music that becomes nostalgic is
happening right now. We listen to music from
when we were kids. And we get this flood of memories
and emotions. And it's like you get to see someone
you haven't seen in decades. And it feels as
if the last time you saw them was yesterday.
It's such a phenomenal ability for the human
mind to connect to our past in that way. And
teachers are in a position right now in that
student's developmental stage to help guide and
facilitate music listening where students can
find that music right now that they connect to
so deeply it becomes their nostalgic connecting
point in the future. We can help children create
emotional anchors through music and nostalgia
to help also combat the negative emotions that
come with trauma. And I think that's part of
trauma -informed teaching that isn't really discussed
because it's such a novel concept and it's so
intuitively sensical. Like you hear it and you're
like, that makes so much sense because I listen
to music. I experience all these things, but
for it to become teaching practices. has to be
done in a way through a professional development
series like ours, where all those dots are connected.
And then we tell you, okay, this is how you can
actually do that and make it a reality. But all
of it is incredibly important and so easy to
integrate. I just have to pause because you're
making me remember one of my favorite practices
from when I was that middle school teacher. So
when we talk about my quirky Disney show tunes,
one of the things that I did when I was teaching
eighth grade is that every day when they would
come in, I would. have playing in the background,
the opening to I Can Go the Distance from Hercules.
And as they were doing that, they'd be putting
all their phones in little pockets and we would
call it phone nap time where they put their phones
away for 90 minutes. And then at the end of class,
I would pace it out so it was minutes before
the bell rang. I would play the second half of
I Can Go the Distance and they would go and grab
their phones again. And after that triumphant,
like that triumphant ending, I would then just
say like a little. I don't know, classroom closure
thing where I would just say, because I actually
have it right in front of me. I cleaned my clipboard
recently. May you find your way and go the distance
to see if it is here in this classroom, this
space where you belong. And then the bell would
ring every day. And after I left that year, I
had a student's mom email me a picture of her
son watching the fireworks at Disney World. I
can go the distance in the background. She says,
he thinks of you every single time he hears this
song. That is so profound. That proves your point
that it brings certain songs are rooted in the
now, like the songs that we play for our students
are setting nostalgia for them at that moment.
And we can't take that for granted as our classroom
teacher. No. And I understand why it's not such
a regular practice, because especially if you're
working in a school where you don't. or at least
if you're of the age where you genuinely do not
understand student taste in music, like that
is a real barrier. I know that what I listened
to growing up is very different from what people
listen to now. And when I was teaching, I felt
like such an old fart at 25 when I wasn't an
old fart. And at the same time, If we are in
a place to act as guides, we also have to consider
the capacity for student taste to change and
evolve and grow and widen. When I was growing
up, my parents are very internationally musically
oriented. So our CD rack, because that's what
we use to listen to music, was filled. hundreds
of CDs from all over the world. And part of my
music listening habits, especially when I was
feeling alone and isolated when my parents were
either sick in bed or at the hospital, was to
identify on the spine of the CD cover, the art
or the title of it. And I would remember what
I felt when I listened to that CD and I would
put that CD on in order to maybe, I'm not even
sure what that equation was, but it was like
craving this sense of feeling. When I would listen
to certain pieces of music based on my emotional
needs at the time. And I might be spending my
entire career chasing that equation. Yes. And
I think I'm getting closer to it. And that's
part of why I love bringing this kind of information
to teachers, because I had teachers who were
my parents. They were the ones that exposed me
to blues and rock and music from different parts
of Europe and Southeast Asia and Chile and just
so many different kinds of music that I definitely
felt like an outsider growing up with all my
friends who... did not understand me and my taste.
But then when high school hit, I became this
bringer of musical cultures. And all of a sudden,
my friends were all like, what do you have for
this feeling? What do you got here? Oh, what
is that? And I'm sharing music. And when I became
a teacher. I was exposing my students to music
from different genres and cultures and time periods,
and their taste grew and grew and grew. And so
what would have been an isolated conversation
about maybe like hip hop, which I have a limited
understanding of modernized hip hop, but I can
speak to like 90s, early 2000s hip hop. And that
would be kind of enough of a connecting point.
Instead, we started with their interests and
then we grew it. And I learned with them and
I showed them some of what I know and learned.
And they loved hearing from me and learning about
the human side of me. And I remember my students
then asking for a school performance if they
could perform like these blues songs and these
other songs that they otherwise would never have
heard and are now loving, which have become.
probably, I assume as they've grown up, parts
of their music listening options. So even if
a teacher doesn't know directly about the music
from their students, one, their students can
teach you. Never miss an opportunity to be taught
by your students. It is such a rewarding exchange
and it's a necessary part of being a good teacher.
We don't own all the knowledge. We aren't the
bringers of knowledge. We are the facilitators
of learning. And then learn with them. What can
you tell them about your musical taste? And then
what can you all learn about the world of music?
And this is where I think Music Workshop's free
curriculum is really helpful. For teachers of
academic subjects like English, history, science,
math, what would you want them to know about
the power of music in their classrooms? Music
is involved in everything. Language arts, songwriting,
poetry. You talk about how to understand metaphors
and what makes someone write songs the way they
do. How do our emotions react to the combination
of certain words? There's so much potential there.
Student creative writing can be magnified when
explored through the lens of music. students
different ways of demonstrating knowledge and
understanding. If you've got a sixth grade class
and normally you would have them do an essay
or go home and do some equations and just memorize
the information until they're blue in the face
and then hope they know how to do it on the test.
What if instead you could offer the option for
them to write a song about the concept that they're
learning and demonstrate that by performing it
to the class or rewrite the lyrics to another
song? And what if they were to create a one act
or a skit and they could perform that for their
class or they just submit this information and
you see that they're understanding the material
and maybe you've given them a different vehicle
for demonstrating their knowledge? And I can
say from personal experience that I am a horrible
test taker. But when verbally tested, my teachers
could see I understood the material. I just had
such bad test anxiety that I would undoubtedly
fail it. So students benefit when there's different
ways of learning and demonstrating their understanding
of a topic. And music is a great vehicle to do
that. And then, of course, you get into the humanities
and music is human. What makes music? humanly
unique and what makes humans uniquely musical.
There's so much to explore there around the human
experience. And again, in our PD for general
educators, there's countless activities that
we recommend for ways to integrate music in a
way that's not overwhelming for teachers. And
I know with math, when I was in algebra one,
The quadratic formula was just letters and numbers.
Okay, x equals negative b plus or minus square
root. But in high school, in Algebra 2, when
they taught it to us through Pop Goes the Weasel,
x equals negative b plus or minus square root.
B squared minus 4ac all over 2a. Oh my gosh,
I didn't know I remembered that until now. Nostalgia,
point in case. Look at that! If you had asked
me for the quadratic formula, I would have just...
said i'm done with this interview um but for
some reason it's like i could picture the entire
formula in my head as soon as you said pop goes
the weasel yeah that's wild point in case it
meant something after that music made it mean
something. But I'm still thinking about that
one teacher, let's say like the science teacher,
because we haven't gone there yet. The science
teacher who says they had the state test at the
end of the year and that's what we're teaching
to. How can someone like them continue to use
music in the way that helps, as you said, bring
out the well -being of their child? What if
as a class, you create a playlist. But if you
create two playlists, one is a calm playlist
and students can contribute songs that either
don't have lyrics or obviously like the prompt
that we like to use is choose a song that won't
get me fired because then students become responsible
for your own well -being, too, as a teacher.
And then they're not sending you explicit lyrics
because that's a real issue. And you can also
find like different versions of it. But if you're
going to integrate study time into your class
or if you're going to have time that's calm and
you're lecturing or you really want student attention,
have some music playing in the background. Have
something calm. Another great option is covers.
There's so many. people who do piano or guitar
or even like bossa nova or ska versions of other
songs and if you have students that love certain
music and you don't want the actual version of
it you can find a cover of it probably in another
genre or on another instrument and then now you've
got a playlist of student songs and an atmosphere
that is calm and engaging And you're filling
that space that sometimes students feel the need
to fill with their voices. And instead, it's
musical. Alternatively, if you create an active
playlist, let's say that you have lab time in
class, you need them to study something or to
learn something hands on. And there's not really
direct teacher to student communication happening,
but like group work. going on then you have a
playlist created by your students of music that's
activating that gets them excited maybe they're
singing along with it while they're also working
on the science experiments what is it that your
students want and are interested in and can you
compromise on that Even something like creating
that climate of trust and safety and validating
their interests can be enough for them to trust
that you're leading them in the right direction.
And when you say that they need to learn something,
even if it's just to get higher test results
for the state test, they're probably more inclined
to work harder for you because you've shown that
you work hard for them too. Thank you for that
insight. And my last question is, what would
you say is the secret sauce to education and
especially education that involves the child
through music? So music is a social tool for
so many students to feel seen. Because when you
have students who experience trauma in particular,
social thinning and isolation is a very real
side effect where maybe they don't really know
how to connect with people anymore. Music can
fill that space. So music has an ability to help
people become similar to open -minded, open -eared.
And research on that shows that when you become
open to hearing music that you're unfamiliar
with, that skill transfers into other areas like
being open to new ideas, being open to new and
unfamiliar people and cultures. That's how you
develop. greater friendships. When you are exposing
yourself to more people, you get to know more
people, you find alignment and compatibility
with more people. And then now you have the strength
of a social circle that helps you feel really
embedded in who you are and valued for who you
are by these others. The more exposure we get,
the more we are able to then discern what works
for us and what helps make us well. people, music,
these are elements of everyday life that if practiced
in school years, can become strengths that really
enrich our lives. And that's why I think music
is such a superpower, because it's got all of
these capacities. And it really comes down to
the moment of like, do you have music on? What
do you turn to music for? Can you do that more
often? Where do you find new music? Can you find
other areas? And that's what I think makes better
people. Absolutely. Could you tell us exactly
what Music Workshop is and some of the roles
that you play within the organization? I'd be
happy to. Thank you. Yeah. So anyone who's listening
to this, if you want to shoot over to musicworkshop
.org, go for it. We've got two types of programs.
First is our free programming, and that is for
any teacher. Originally, we were an organization
dedicated to music teachers to fill the gap of
those who might be absent in school or first
year, need more resources that are culturally
responsive and vetted by professional advisors.
of that work for you. And it's all free. The
only catch is that we just ask for feedback.
How'd it go? Did your students like it? So that's
half of our organization. The other half is professional
development, which is what I have the great privilege
of facilitating. So starting about two years
ago, we built our first Music for Wellbeing course.
And these are online, self -paced for both music
teachers. who have their own course, and then
general educators. And we have two other types
of courses as well. One of the courses is six
hours. And it's for music teachers called Teaching
Music for Well -Being. And we talk about the
fundamentals of well -being. We use the PERMA
framework from positive psychology as a way to
identify five areas of well -being in students
or lack thereof and give teachers a tool for
being able to recognize signs that some students
are maybe not OK, but not quite at the level
of calling CPS. And that's usually where teachers
find themselves experiencing burnout and secondary
trauma. And I think having been in this position
myself, a lot of helplessness that leads to mental
health challenges for the teachers as well. Because
what do you do for a student who you have limited
time with and you can tell they're just not okay?
Well, music is a great tool for that. So for
music teachers, we empower them with a heightened
skill set, given their focus is already on music,
to turn their attention to student well -being
through music. And then for general educators,
we realize we have to do some of the lifting
for what kind of music can general educators
confidently teach in class. So we provide the
same framework, the PERMA model, which includes
positive emotions, engagement. relationships,
meaning, and achievement. Those are the five
areas that teachers learn to recognize and target
through music. And each of these courses are
six hours and it comes with a certificate. So
it also counts towards your professional development
hours usually required for continuing education,
for recertification, or for higher salary levels.
The more we allow ourselves to be stretched thin
by teaching, the less effective we're going to
be for the students who do genuinely need our
help and our best. So if you've got two hours
and you want to learn some strategies for implementing
boundaries, understanding teacher burnout, and
some of the symptoms that can lead teachers to
really lose that passion, this is definitely
a course for you. And currently we are building
one on classroom management. Title is TBD. But
the idea is that Since it's our most requested
topic. How, as music teachers and then separately
for general educators, can music be a tool for
facilitating learning in a classroom when we
see statistically that student behavior and absenteeism
is at all -time lows and we need help? So in
order for us to feel like we're able to contribute
to the teaching workforce in a meaningful way,
we are working with three expert advisors who
are helping us develop. develop some concrete
tools and recommendations for teachers to feel
equipped with better classroom management skills.
It's great to know that there's tools out there
that help them do that. And I think one of the
things that helped play into that training is
in fact that PERMA model that you offer, which
is positive emotions, engagement, relationships,
meaning. and accomplishments, those five different
categories, which are a good framework to positive
psychology. And I wanted to say thank you so
much again for continuing to share both your
expertise and humanity for teachers of really
all subject areas. Whether it's a playlist, a
lyric, or even just a quiet moment of music in
our classrooms, what you choose to bring in could
be what helps the student feel safe, seen, and
heard. You don't have to be a music teacher to
offer any of that. So thank you again for listening.
And as always, remember to take care of yourself
and your classrooms and let the power of music
guide you there. Thank you for joining us on
the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education
podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made
you think differently, I'd love to hear from
you. drop a comment or review wherever you listen
to podcasts and stay connected with us on the
at classroom narratives podcast over instagram
and facebook remember together we can transform
our scars into stars in education one conversation
at a time