WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.419 Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in 00:00:02.419 --> 00:00:04.900 Education podcast, the space where education 00:00:04.900 --> 00:00:09.019 meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in 00:00:09.019 --> 00:00:11.400 each episode, we dive deep into the personal 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.099 stories of educators, students, leaders, and 00:00:15.099 --> 00:00:18.079 frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:21.260 within modern education. Whether you're just 00:00:21.260 --> 00:00:23.879 starting your teaching journey, or are we seasoned 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:26.260 professionals looking for inspiration, we'll 00:00:26.260 --> 00:00:29.059 explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent 00:00:29.059 --> 00:00:31.859 burnout, and build trauma -informed communities 00:00:31.859 --> 00:00:34.979 within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at 00:00:34.979 --> 00:00:36.799 the front of the classroom as we get started. 00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:39.759 Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:42.700 Education Podcast. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:44.820 today's guest is someone whose presence in the 00:00:44.820 --> 00:00:47.579 field of trauma -informed care has shaped how 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:50.520 schools and communities respond to crisis. Dr. 00:00:50.659 --> 00:00:53.380 Tom DeMaria is a clinical and school psychologist, 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:56.100 a two -time recipient of the New York State Liberty 00:00:56.100 --> 00:00:59.520 Award, and a fellow in both the trauma and clinical 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.539 divisions of the APA, which is the American Psychological 00:01:02.539 --> 00:01:06.459 Association. And Dr. DeMaria assists with coordination 00:01:06.459 --> 00:01:09.719 of the National Center for School Crisis and 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:13.359 Bereavement, otherwise known as the NCSCB, as 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.659 a way to support grieving students and provide 00:01:15.659 --> 00:01:17.700 consultation to schools who are dealing with 00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:21.150 both crisis and loss. And from supporting families 00:01:21.150 --> 00:01:24.329 after 9 -11 to working with communities in the 00:01:24.329 --> 00:01:26.609 wake of both Newtown and Parkland, that's Sandy 00:01:26.609 --> 00:01:29.709 Hook and Stoneman Douglas. Dr. DeMaria has spent 00:01:29.709 --> 00:01:33.030 his career helping us understand how to hold 00:01:33.030 --> 00:01:35.150 space for that grief and how to lead with both 00:01:35.150 --> 00:01:37.849 compassion and clarity. And I want to pause and 00:01:37.849 --> 00:01:40.569 mention, as I welcome Tom to the show, that I 00:01:40.569 --> 00:01:44.409 saw Tom speak on the panel at the 9 -11 exhibit 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:48.299 in February 2025. And that panel was called "Through 00:01:48.299 --> 00:01:51.060 Their Eyes: Therapeutic Art for Grieving Children." 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:55.680 And it was really a sensational experience to 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:59.120 listen to, quite frankly, children who are older 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:02.180 than me at 9 -11 work alongside Tom and their 00:02:02.180 --> 00:02:04.459 colleagues to find their lives, come back to 00:02:04.459 --> 00:02:06.659 them, just find their healing as a way to move 00:02:06.659 --> 00:02:08.500 forward from that tragedy and the way that Tom 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:10.379 and his colleagues were able to support them 00:02:10.379 --> 00:02:12.879 in doing so. And so with that being said, Tom, 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:15.020 a very warm welcome to our show. And thank you 00:02:15.020 --> 00:02:17.810 again for joining me tonight. Oh, you're welcome. 00:02:17.949 --> 00:02:19.669 And thank you for that nice introduction. I have 00:02:19.669 --> 00:02:26.830 to tape it for my mom. She's 91 now. That's a 00:02:26.830 --> 00:02:29.189 blessing in itself. Absolutely. We'll have her 00:02:29.189 --> 00:02:31.509 check it out here on the show as well. And so 00:02:31.509 --> 00:02:33.750 I have a couple of questions that I'm going to 00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:36.110 be asking Tom in terms of just responding to 00:02:36.110 --> 00:02:39.069 9 -11 and thinking about the tragedy that happened 00:02:39.069 --> 00:02:43.000 24 years ago. And how that knowledge base has 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.439 built us into just what we still see in the modern 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.159 tragedy. Because again, we say that the past 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:51.699 is practice. But what have we really learned 00:02:51.699 --> 00:02:54.240 in terms of just how we keep seeing the cycle 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:57.120 of trauma repeat? And I'm hoping that Tom can 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.639 be a voice with his testimony in showing what 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:02.840 skills we can still provide to. both people and 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.419 also our schools in general, since we are the 00:03:05.419 --> 00:03:07.659 Classroom Narratives podcast that focuses here 00:03:07.659 --> 00:03:10.120 on education. So, Tom, the first thing I wanted 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:12.639 to ask you was, what got you interested in the 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:16.300 work that you do? I was working at a hospital. 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.620 I was the chief psychologist, and we had received 00:03:19.620 --> 00:03:22.719 a message that a plane had crashed in Cove Neck, 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.590 the Avianca. plane many years ago. And at that 00:03:26.590 --> 00:03:29.509 point in time, there was really no formal structure 00:03:29.509 --> 00:03:32.370 to help support families and children. And what 00:03:32.370 --> 00:03:35.469 made the situation even more unique, a majority 00:03:35.469 --> 00:03:38.449 of people who were on that plane were not English 00:03:38.449 --> 00:03:41.030 speaking. So there had to be arrangements made 00:03:41.030 --> 00:03:43.689 to have translators come to the site. But then 00:03:43.689 --> 00:03:45.509 the question became, well, what do we do then? 00:03:45.810 --> 00:03:49.250 People were upset. People were very sad about 00:03:49.250 --> 00:03:51.750 what happened. So the question is, What do we 00:03:51.750 --> 00:03:53.909 do? So I think based on that tragedy, and the 00:03:53.909 --> 00:03:56.689 same thing after tragedies like 9 -11, we learn 00:03:56.689 --> 00:03:58.990 more about what we need to know. And from there, 00:03:59.009 --> 00:04:01.030 I just pursued more and more education about 00:04:01.030 --> 00:04:03.849 trauma and understanding the impact of trauma 00:04:03.849 --> 00:04:07.990 on children and adults, families. And that eventually 00:04:07.990 --> 00:04:10.370 led me to realize that loss is oftentimes... 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:13.539 not considered when we deal with trauma but every 00:04:13.539 --> 00:04:16.600 traumatic situation that happens there's loss 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.459 somebody's losing part of their life maybe or 00:04:19.459 --> 00:04:22.810 sometimes a sense of safety but A lot of times 00:04:22.810 --> 00:04:25.769 it could be functioning or it could be even the 00:04:25.769 --> 00:04:28.550 loss of a loved one. So it's broadened that concept. 00:04:28.689 --> 00:04:30.410 And I think in the trauma field, what I've seen 00:04:30.410 --> 00:04:32.829 a real growth is a respect for the fact that 00:04:32.829 --> 00:04:35.930 the number one trauma does sadly create lasting 00:04:35.930 --> 00:04:38.050 impact on people. Certainly, we've seen that 00:04:38.050 --> 00:04:40.610 with people who are victims of crime or military 00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:43.670 veterans. But we're also seeing that trauma can 00:04:43.670 --> 00:04:47.050 occur fairly commonly in a lot of people, but 00:04:47.050 --> 00:04:49.529 also loss can occur pretty commonly, too. We 00:04:49.529 --> 00:04:52.240 know that Most children, by the time they turn 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:54.439 18, will have experienced a loss of a family 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:58.620 member. So how does that corrupt child development? 00:04:58.699 --> 00:05:01.660 How does the loss of a mother, father, grandfather, 00:05:02.019 --> 00:05:05.860 et cetera, a corrupt thing? So I think my learning 00:05:05.860 --> 00:05:08.180 and the field, I think, has progressed in that 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:10.879 way. Thank you for sharing that. And as your 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.379 work has progressed, you've been at the front 00:05:13.379 --> 00:05:16.120 lines of some of the most profound national tragedies, 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:19.810 which have included 9 -11. Newtown and Parkland. 00:05:19.949 --> 00:05:23.329 And these moments have also involved, as you 00:05:23.329 --> 00:05:26.209 disclosed on our panel back at the 9 -11 Memorial 00:05:26.209 --> 00:05:29.589 in February, right, that there is often young 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:33.230 children involved with loss in these instances. 00:05:33.490 --> 00:05:35.889 So I wanted to know if you could share with us 00:05:35.889 --> 00:05:38.009 a little bit more about some moments that have 00:05:38.009 --> 00:05:40.550 taught you through these tragedies about just 00:05:40.550 --> 00:05:44.639 how the emotional architecture of schools and 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:49.300 children work and how grief can eventually just 00:05:49.300 --> 00:05:52.600 ripple throughout a community and what experts 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.759 in the field like you can do to work through 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:59.259 that, with that. Yeah, and it's a really important 00:05:59.259 --> 00:06:01.740 point because I think it led me to rethink, and 00:06:01.740 --> 00:06:03.480 that's why I've become more involved with the 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.600 National Center for School Crisis and Bereavement, 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:09.160 that A school psychologist, school social worker, 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:11.759 somebody who's in guidance or a school counselor 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.399 can't see every child in that building who is 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.040 impacted by a loss. We need to educate teachers, 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:20.899 administrators, bus drivers, school custodians, 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.939 support staff to all be consistent in their message 00:06:23.939 --> 00:06:27.240 that loss is something that affects us all. And 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.300 loss is complicated, but it's also simple. It's 00:06:30.300 --> 00:06:32.480 based on the bond we had with people. The greater 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.939 the bond, the bigger sense of loss we have. and 00:06:35.939 --> 00:06:39.399 giving the teachers, educators an opportunity 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:43.279 when grief happens to process it with children. 00:06:43.420 --> 00:06:45.899 Children are very different than adults. Adults 00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:48.339 can hold it into that 45 -minute therapy session. 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:52.079 Kids' emotions are more fluid. I remember when 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:53.939 I was working with grieving children at the World 00:06:53.939 --> 00:06:56.720 Trade Center Family Center. I was playing with 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:58.620 a bunch of children, and one little boy pulled 00:06:58.620 --> 00:07:01.779 out a mass card about his father and his funeral, 00:07:01.819 --> 00:07:03.480 and the other little boy pulled out one too, 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:05.740 like they were... holding baseball cards. And 00:07:05.740 --> 00:07:07.939 one boy said to the other boy, I have one of 00:07:07.939 --> 00:07:10.959 those. And yeah, I have one too. And they looked 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:13.220 at each other and they shared that understanding 00:07:13.220 --> 00:07:16.180 that each other had lost their dads. And they 00:07:16.180 --> 00:07:18.199 put the cards back in their pocket and they kept 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:21.220 playing. So I realized that's how grief works 00:07:21.220 --> 00:07:23.439 with children. Grief works in the middle of the 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.100 night sometimes when the child can't go to sleep 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:28.819 and they need to have a caring caregiver there 00:07:28.819 --> 00:07:31.439 to provide support and safety to the child. Somebody 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.639 they can trust will keep them safe. So you realize 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:36.759 that we need to build that foundation in communities, 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.579 and we needed to build that consistently. So 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:42.879 in interventions that I've been on, our goal 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:45.500 is not to come in there as outsiders and work 00:07:45.500 --> 00:07:48.699 with all the children. Our goal is to build the 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:51.040 educators and people working who have contact 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:53.259 with those children that they can be available, 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.660 they can listen, they can make that first step 00:07:55.660 --> 00:07:58.240 to talk to a child. Oftentimes, and I've seen 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:01.730 it, hundreds of school consultations. School 00:08:01.730 --> 00:08:04.310 staff don't want to hurt children. They're really 00:08:04.310 --> 00:08:06.470 supportive to children, so they don't say anything. 00:08:06.649 --> 00:08:08.910 that might offend them, but we find that sometimes 00:08:08.910 --> 00:08:10.910 gives the message to the children that they can't 00:08:10.910 --> 00:08:12.709 talk about their feelings or what's bothering 00:08:12.709 --> 00:08:15.389 them. So we encourage schools to initiate the 00:08:15.389 --> 00:08:19.949 conversation. Say, listen, I heard your dad died, 00:08:19.949 --> 00:08:21.750 and that's sad. If you ever want to talk about 00:08:21.750 --> 00:08:24.689 it, I'm here, which in the past would have been, 00:08:24.709 --> 00:08:27.220 oh, can't bring it up. lost their dad let's just 00:08:27.220 --> 00:08:28.920 keep an eye on them let's not bring it up at 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:30.699 all or if they bring it up up send them right 00:08:30.699 --> 00:08:32.539 to the school counselor you know that's not what 00:08:32.539 --> 00:08:35.120 a teacher should do rather give teachers the 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.500 comfort because they've also been there themselves 00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:40.360 and they also have been through that experience 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:42.460 that they can be supportive to children let them 00:08:42.460 --> 00:08:44.799 know it's okay grief can occur at any time be 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.980 triggered and activated as can trauma and but 00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:49.919 give people the comfort that they can help in 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.059 the schools and make the schools really a safe 00:08:52.059 --> 00:08:55.139 place for children The other side of it, it's 00:08:55.139 --> 00:08:57.840 a 9 -11 story, too. I worked, as most people 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:00.000 did, trying to provide support to the families 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:03.240 or first responders. And I remember not being 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:06.419 home for a while because I was busy at the hospital, 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:08.759 busy at our family center, helping families. 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.740 And one day, my wife said, you've got to take 00:09:11.740 --> 00:09:13.720 a break. So about a couple of months after 9 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:17.159 -11, we went apple picking out east in Long Island. 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:20.000 And I was at my son, who was maybe four or five 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.620 years old, and we were picking apples. I felt 00:09:22.620 --> 00:09:24.460 this tugging on my shoulder and I said, what's 00:09:24.460 --> 00:09:27.419 going on? And he says, dad, do we need all these 00:09:27.419 --> 00:09:29.940 apples? And I looked down and there was a wagon 00:09:29.940 --> 00:09:33.059 full of hundreds of apples that I had picked. 00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:38.500 I realized, okay, okay. I was getting overloaded 00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:40.580 with compassion fatigue that carries trauma. 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:42.919 And I realized back then if I was going to keep 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:45.019 doing this work, I had to take care of myself. 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.179 I had to put my family and myself in the mix 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:50.240 in terms of getting that support. And that helped 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.840 me. I think it's helped me stay fresh. for people, 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:55.440 and it's helped me not dread the work of going 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.840 into a crisis situation. You feel it. Being in 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:00.740 our field, you have to be empathic and caring, 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.340 but you also have to protect yourself too. So 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:06.080 I realized you got to be there, but you got to 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.600 not let the person you're trying to help you 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:10.860 because they see you're burnt out or disconnecting 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:14.259 in any way. So, Tom, you just took me in a bunch 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:15.860 of different directions, and I'm so glad that 00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:17.799 you did because I wanted it to come from you 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:19.960 and not from me. So I think that's awesome. Thank 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:23.139 you for that. So I'll share a little story. And 00:10:23.139 --> 00:10:25.320 Tom, the way that you and I met face -to -face 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:27.379 is because after the panel, well, let me back 00:10:27.379 --> 00:10:30.799 up. During the panel, it was a panel on 9 -11 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:35.580 back in February, but Parkland came up as a response 00:10:35.580 --> 00:10:38.100 that you had made at that time. And instantly, 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:40.480 I mean, you had already had my attention, but 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.580 you really got me there because I'm from Parkland. 00:10:42.659 --> 00:10:45.340 I'm in Parkland. Our listeners are also from 00:10:45.340 --> 00:10:46.940 the area. They're my colleagues who were there 00:10:46.940 --> 00:10:50.700 and experienced that loss. By hearing that, I 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:52.179 knew you would be the perfect voice for this 00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:56.720 project. And the story is that I was actually 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.940 one of the first substitute teachers to be invited 00:10:58.940 --> 00:11:02.320 back into the building to Stoneman Douglas on 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:06.539 March 14th, 28 days after the tragedy had happened. 00:11:06.620 --> 00:11:09.240 The school opened up on February 28th, and I 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:13.080 came back on the 14th of March. And as I'm coming 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.100 back, I'm sitting in the same classrooms as students 00:11:16.100 --> 00:11:19.789 who were in that 1200 building. we didn't really 00:11:19.789 --> 00:11:21.990 have training. Like I saw some grief counseling 00:11:21.990 --> 00:11:24.470 before I went back, but especially as the substitute, 00:11:24.730 --> 00:11:27.129 I'm just a community member. Nobody really trained 00:11:27.129 --> 00:11:30.009 us how to actually talk with students and guide 00:11:30.009 --> 00:11:32.509 students. So we were actually encouraged to just 00:11:32.509 --> 00:11:35.370 brush it off and be quiet and let them go to 00:11:35.370 --> 00:11:36.769 the professionals, which actually looking back 00:11:36.769 --> 00:11:39.590 was not a terrible idea. But still by being there 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:41.809 and letting students share their stories freely, 00:11:41.970 --> 00:11:44.889 if they so wanted to, I did get a lot of vicarious 00:11:44.889 --> 00:11:48.200 trauma from that. And in the fall, I was working 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.460 at their feeder middle school, which is also 00:11:50.460 --> 00:11:53.379 where I was the day of the shooting, where students 00:11:53.379 --> 00:11:57.000 from those classes had lost siblings, friends, 00:11:57.299 --> 00:11:59.720 had parents in that building. And I worked with 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:02.419 those students as their interim part -time teacher 00:12:02.419 --> 00:12:06.019 that entire fall semester, 2018. So then the 00:12:06.019 --> 00:12:08.620 next spring comes along and I moved to another 00:12:08.620 --> 00:12:11.720 city, the same district, different city. And 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.379 February comes along once again. Now it's 2019. 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.419 And the administration says to us, there's one 00:12:18.419 --> 00:12:22.840 student that we know in this school, a year later, 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.559 who is still struggling with the loss of a good 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:28.379 friend from Parkland. If you know her, do not 00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:30.440 see her, do not talk to her, do not bring it 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:32.600 up, just completely ignore it, just brush it 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.879 off. Which kind of goes back into what you mentioned, 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:36.740 where it's very easy to have that kind of response. 00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:40.159 That student actually came to visit my classroom 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:45.139 for an activity through another teacher. I just 00:12:45.139 --> 00:12:47.299 noticed that there was a sign on her backpack 00:12:47.299 --> 00:12:49.559 that represented the loss of one of the people 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.620 from the tragedy. And I happened to casually 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:54.159 ask, hey, does that represent the loss of so 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.759 -and -so? That's all I had to ask. That student 00:12:57.759 --> 00:12:59.940 looked at me and she said, you are just the person 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:01.799 I need to talk to. Thank you for bringing that 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.460 up. And she became my student that next year. 00:13:05.179 --> 00:13:08.960 And I felt like having those conversations with 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:13.100 that student was a way for me to overcome my 00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:15.740 own vicarious trauma. But in a way, I also had 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:19.620 to be very careful in a way that I was not inducing 00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:23.100 more trauma into that child. So the two -fold 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:25.860 question that I wanted to ask is, for our teachers 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:28.500 that really struggle with addressing trauma, 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:33.059 how can you work to take care of yourself as 00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:36.419 the educator and managing those traumas and also 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:39.259 approach students in a way that is trauma -informed 00:13:39.259 --> 00:13:43.269 and not trauma -induced? There's an important 00:13:43.269 --> 00:13:49.429 differentiation, and that's that grief and trauma 00:13:49.429 --> 00:13:52.049 are mixed together. And oftentimes it's hard 00:13:52.049 --> 00:13:54.809 to separate them. Certainly the courage of both 00:13:54.809 --> 00:13:58.090 the students and staff at Marjory Stoneman Douglas 00:13:58.090 --> 00:14:01.730 still impresses me to this day. But what's difficult 00:14:01.730 --> 00:14:05.330 is when it's mixed together. And with trauma, 00:14:05.490 --> 00:14:09.129 when it's activated, you want to be able to manage 00:14:09.129 --> 00:14:12.879 the feelings. and put it away. You want to be 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.360 able to process it and put it away. With grief, 00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:19.100 when it's activated, you want to manage the feelings, 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:21.940 but you want to remember the bond. And that's 00:14:21.940 --> 00:14:24.960 what's tricky because it's one size doesn't fit 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:28.659 all. So the people who are in the school or had 00:14:28.659 --> 00:14:30.899 siblings in the school or were connected, we 00:14:30.899 --> 00:14:33.159 all have connection. It's the six degrees of 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:35.919 separation issue. We all are connected. It's 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.919 hard to disentangle the elements of what happened. 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:42.220 that's traumatic from that which involves a deep 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:44.740 loss of a bond of a teacher, the brave teachers 00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:47.700 that were there. So how do you disentangle one 00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:49.240 with the other? So when approaching children, 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:54.279 it's making sure that you initiate a conversation 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.519 without necessarily activating the trauma, knowing 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.059 that may be something the child does not want 00:15:01.059 --> 00:15:04.519 to happen. That's why it can be difficult. But 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:08.340 oftentimes children are happy, in a sense, talking. 00:15:08.809 --> 00:15:10.950 about their loss or the people, the bond with 00:15:10.950 --> 00:15:13.570 the person that they lost. So that navigation 00:15:13.570 --> 00:15:15.870 can be a little tricky. But I find giving the 00:15:15.870 --> 00:15:18.309 child permission and asking them very innocent 00:15:18.309 --> 00:15:21.090 questions and not pushing them, letting the child 00:15:21.090 --> 00:15:24.110 know that invitation's there, can help them discern 00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:26.690 what they wanted. If the child that you approach 00:15:26.690 --> 00:15:29.490 said, I don't want to talk about it, that's cool. 00:15:30.129 --> 00:15:32.519 Then you just say, hey, I'm here if you do. That's 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:34.919 it. And knowing when to back away is really important. 00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:36.940 And that's something that needs to be kept in 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:39.679 mind. But oftentimes, I once had a child, not 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:41.960 at Parkland, but another district that we did. 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:44.299 And I went back for a follow -up visit. And I 00:15:44.299 --> 00:15:47.379 had just said hi. And the child came up to me 00:15:47.379 --> 00:15:50.059 and said, can we talk? You seem like a good guy. 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:52.539 And the only reason they came up is because I 00:15:52.539 --> 00:15:55.019 had just made myself available by saying hello. 00:15:55.259 --> 00:15:57.860 So oftentimes, those connections are important. 00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:00.240 The other part of your question, though, is you're 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.850 right. Being yourself, you get put into a tough 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:07.470 situation. And what happens is that being empathic, 00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:10.669 we feel what other people feel, and we want to 00:16:10.669 --> 00:16:15.009 help. And it's hard to listen and to take a lot 00:16:15.009 --> 00:16:18.529 in. We encourage people to know their limits 00:16:18.529 --> 00:16:20.850 and also to know what they're bringing into the 00:16:20.850 --> 00:16:24.210 situation. Oftentimes, people do have exposure 00:16:24.210 --> 00:16:26.809 to prior trauma, either through their work experience, 00:16:27.129 --> 00:16:29.629 sometimes could be a death by suicide, sometimes 00:16:29.629 --> 00:16:32.190 it could be violence that they may have seen, 00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:35.210 a car accident, whatever. Know what you're bringing 00:16:35.210 --> 00:16:38.470 in, know what your limitations are, and know 00:16:38.470 --> 00:16:43.309 when after you've had a lot of compassion fatigue. 00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:47.210 after listening to students, know how you best 00:16:47.210 --> 00:16:49.870 can handle it. For some people, it's exercising, 00:16:50.309 --> 00:16:52.990 spending time with family, distracting themselves. 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:55.549 For other people, it's sharing with a colleague 00:16:55.549 --> 00:16:57.929 and just saying, wow, can we talk? That was rough. 00:16:58.309 --> 00:17:01.990 Or a family member. So knowing your limits and 00:17:01.990 --> 00:17:04.430 knowing when you do have it that you need not 00:17:04.430 --> 00:17:08.210 to go pick apples. You need to be able to find 00:17:08.210 --> 00:17:11.079 somebody that you can... talk to and process 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:13.559 a lot of that stuff. It goes back to the whole 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.359 theory of therapy. A lot of therapy is by talking 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:19.039 through, we get insight, because just by thinking 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:20.980 it in our own heads, it doesn't really resolve 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:23.079 issues. But talking to another person could be 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.319 magical in a lot of ways. But not everybody wants 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:28.099 to do that, and that's okay. But people, school 00:17:28.099 --> 00:17:29.940 staff need to realize that that's something that's 00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:32.140 very important. And you can't mandate people 00:17:32.140 --> 00:17:34.519 to share, because that's not the way they handle 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.099 it. But giving them the opportunity is very important. 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:41.500 The talk therapy that invites but doesn't mandate 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:43.680 other people to participate in that dialogue. 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.980 Children will oftentimes, if they're carrying 00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:50.299 a burden, won't tell everybody. They'll oftentimes 00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:53.519 find the one person that they feel they can connect 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.119 with in some way. So it can be felt like a burden, 00:17:57.180 --> 00:17:58.579 but there's also something called compassion 00:17:58.579 --> 00:18:01.920 satisfaction. Knowing a child like the child 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.019 who came to you to talk. trusted you or saw something 00:18:05.019 --> 00:18:07.339 that they could share is what an honor that is. 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.299 And that's something that's really important 00:18:09.299 --> 00:18:12.799 that you find satisfaction in the fact that you 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:14.579 helped that child on a pathway. You don't need 00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:16.440 to be the therapist and you don't need to be 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:18.259 anywhere, but they reached out to you. You opened 00:18:18.259 --> 00:18:20.019 the door for that child. That's just a wonderful 00:18:20.019 --> 00:18:23.039 feeling. And we talked about compassion fatigue, 00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:25.420 but compassion satisfaction is a very important 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:28.500 part of it. I would believe that I would be speaking 00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:31.740 for many different kinds of educators who continue 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:34.259 to struggle with bringing that baggage home at 00:18:34.259 --> 00:18:36.279 night from what they've experienced in the day 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.700 in their classrooms. And to those educators who 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:40.240 are listening, I applaud you and I hope that 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.319 Dr. DeMaria is here to give you the tools that 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:44.480 you need to move forward from that headspace. 00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:47.180 And Tom, you have a great point that teachers 00:18:47.180 --> 00:18:49.279 are not therapists, but I think all it takes 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.859 to acknowledge a child is just by being a good 00:18:51.859 --> 00:18:55.359 person and a good listener. And students have 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:57.490 very good intuition. And when they know that 00:18:57.490 --> 00:18:58.990 they have someone that they can address that 00:18:58.990 --> 00:19:01.089 with, they're very likely to be honest and open 00:19:01.089 --> 00:19:03.990 with us. And I think about that a lot when I 00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:06.230 think back to teachers that I've enjoyed the 00:19:06.230 --> 00:19:08.670 most. And when I look at my own end of the semester 00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:11.890 evaluations at the schools I teach at, students 00:19:11.890 --> 00:19:14.650 will more than likely say, we like him because 00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:18.259 he cared. And they pick up and they pick it up. 00:19:18.259 --> 00:19:20.920 It's amazing. Oftentimes with people I've worked 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:22.700 with, children, I'll go, I have to tell you something. 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:24.339 Oh, it looks like you're going on vacation. I 00:19:24.339 --> 00:19:26.119 said, I didn't say anything. It looks like you 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.759 can tell it on your face. It's amazing how being 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.019 open and honest with children is really important. 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.559 And sincerity and caring is really important. 00:19:34.819 --> 00:19:36.500 And that's why I think we need to do our own 00:19:36.500 --> 00:19:39.619 homework after a tragedy occurs. If we're mourning 00:19:39.619 --> 00:19:42.160 a loss, it's going to be hard for us to ask about 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.220 loss. But not impossible. It just means we have 00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:47.200 to be open that we might have feelings stirred 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.839 up too when talking to a child. Children, especially 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:52.559 children who go through tragedies, stir up so 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.519 much strong emotions. And I think we just have 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:56.480 to be aware that's may happen. And we need to 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:58.920 make sure that we have our place to go to make 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.259 sure those feelings are processed. Absolutely. 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:03.259 And that leads me to my next question, because 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:05.660 again, you have responded to many different types 00:20:05.660 --> 00:20:09.119 of disasters in educational settings. And I wanted 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:12.789 to think about what have you learned? from Newtown 00:20:12.789 --> 00:20:16.369 to Parkland based on 9 -11. And I guess what 00:20:16.369 --> 00:20:18.950 I'm wondering here is if you could share, how 00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:21.970 has your knowledge base developed from tragedy 00:20:21.970 --> 00:20:23.990 to tragedy in terms of things that have worked, 00:20:24.109 --> 00:20:25.809 things that have been consistent, things that 00:20:25.809 --> 00:20:29.349 you adjusted in between, and what that's done 00:20:29.349 --> 00:20:33.529 for you as an expert in this time? What always 00:20:33.529 --> 00:20:37.119 impressed me is the courage. of children and 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.240 the dedication of school staff. I think it's 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.480 just so impressive that even after the most horrific 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.660 things, children want to go back to school. They 00:20:45.660 --> 00:20:49.180 wanted to support their peers and helping them 00:20:49.180 --> 00:20:52.480 believe that is a strength that they can always 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.019 tap into while acknowledging, though, that sometimes 00:20:56.019 --> 00:20:59.940 thoughts and feelings can linger a little bit. 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:02.420 And so it's helping people. It's commending strength. 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:05.619 but letting people know that they still have 00:21:05.619 --> 00:21:07.640 to make sure that there's nothing kicking around. 00:21:07.819 --> 00:21:09.839 Not treating everybody who goes through a trauma 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.440 as needing trauma treatment, but letting them 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:15.140 know what post -traumatic stress is, letting 00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:17.740 them know what grief is, giving those tools and 00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:20.220 letting them know the door is open. It's an empowerment 00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:22.960 model. I've learned that as much as I'd love 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.420 to do therapy with everybody when I go to a tragedy, 00:21:26.089 --> 00:21:28.170 It's empowering them with information, empowering 00:21:28.170 --> 00:21:31.089 the staff in a school that the magic is in their 00:21:31.089 --> 00:21:33.069 hands and they can do that work. And certainly 00:21:33.069 --> 00:21:35.049 you want to have screening available for children 00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:37.650 who show more serious signs that they may need 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:40.190 support. They're self -destructive or violent 00:21:40.190 --> 00:21:44.430 or whatever. But most children need that encouragement 00:21:44.430 --> 00:21:47.390 to help others, to help their peers. And most 00:21:47.390 --> 00:21:49.470 staff realize that they have the power also. 00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:52.400 It's an amazing thing to do. to do empowerment 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.880 work and not wait till it becomes something that 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.680 you have to do an intervention for. After 9 -11, 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.180 we set up the 9 -11 Family Center. I think we 00:22:01.180 --> 00:22:03.359 worked with several thousand family members who 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.240 lost people in 9 -11. And I remember being asked, 00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:09.359 are you doing assessments at everybody who comes 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.180 in? I said, what do you mean? Well, have you 00:22:12.180 --> 00:22:13.960 done full assessments on all the children and 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:17.059 adults? It was a mental health model, which is 00:22:17.059 --> 00:22:19.160 certainly important. And I said, well, if the 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:21.839 children are showing signs. then we would do 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:23.799 that. But we're community -based. We're trying 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.440 to build a healing community, a community based 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.220 on trauma theory, grief theory that can help. 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.059 But we want a center that can help people feel 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:35.480 empowered enough to help themselves. I think 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.759 oftentimes when people feel that they're just 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.440 the recipient. of services and not fully participating, 00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:44.500 they don't feel that sense of control they need 00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:46.599 and agency in their lives. And that I've picked 00:22:46.599 --> 00:22:48.680 up in the field. It's about giving people agency 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.420 to find the way and to really help themselves. 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:54.619 I love that response because it helps me ask 00:22:54.619 --> 00:22:56.960 my next question, which is how many schools today 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.980 are still continuing to struggle and address 00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:02.420 grief in real time, like if there's a loss by 00:23:02.420 --> 00:23:05.359 suicide in the community or... By the time that 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:07.720 we're recording this on April 23rd, our listeners 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:09.599 will hear this in May or even over the summer. 00:23:09.700 --> 00:23:11.680 But at the time of this recording, there was 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.940 a shooting at Florida State University in Tallahassee 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:17.259 over the weekend where actually many freshmen 00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:19.279 who were in that building at Stoneman Douglas 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:21.900 are about to graduate from that same college 00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:24.160 or university. and next month in May. So that 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:26.160 freshman eight years later, they now have a second 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.579 tragedy. And in addressing these types of griefs 00:23:29.579 --> 00:23:31.640 and traumas in real time, again, rather it's 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:34.660 student loss, national tragedies, or even just 00:23:34.660 --> 00:23:36.640 collective burnout and exhaustion, especially 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.980 in today's climate. What are some of the core 00:23:38.980 --> 00:23:41.759 principles that schools can follow as a blueprint 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:46.420 to handle those responses? Well, the first thing 00:23:46.420 --> 00:23:48.660 is that I think every school needs to become 00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:51.380 trauma -informed and grief -sensitive. All staff 00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:53.740 have to have that working knowledge. The coaches, 00:23:53.980 --> 00:23:56.460 the school bus driver, the person in the cafeteria, 00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:58.579 you don't know who the child or adolescent is 00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:01.680 going to gravitate to. But letting them know 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.940 at least about... what can be expected in terms 00:24:04.940 --> 00:24:06.759 of what they've been through, I think is essential. 00:24:06.980 --> 00:24:09.420 Because again, giving them that knowledge, a 00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:11.980 lot of children and adolescents who start having 00:24:11.980 --> 00:24:14.460 hyperventilation after being exposed to a grief 00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:17.349 or trauma activator. may think they're crazy, 00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:19.150 may think they're going crazy, and they don't 00:24:19.150 --> 00:24:21.589 understand that it traces back to this loss of 00:24:21.589 --> 00:24:24.529 feelings of safety. Bad dreams you had, the sleep 00:24:24.529 --> 00:24:27.390 difficulties might be because you had a dream 00:24:27.390 --> 00:24:29.809 about dad or mom or your classmate who died. 00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:33.109 Understanding mental health issues, for example, 00:24:33.109 --> 00:24:36.150 after a death by suicide. In the past, people 00:24:36.150 --> 00:24:38.690 would just not talk about it. But now we need 00:24:38.690 --> 00:24:40.710 to talk about mental health issues that affect 00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:44.670 people, that lead to death by suicides and depression 00:24:44.670 --> 00:24:48.289 awareness, mental health awareness. So it's education 00:24:48.289 --> 00:24:51.359 before the event. Because training during an 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:53.039 event when people can't learn because they're 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.059 so preoccupied with a lot of different things 00:24:55.059 --> 00:24:57.759 is really hard. So we encourage getting the training 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.180 done beforehand to understand these basic principles 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:02.319 and concepts. Not everybody has to be an expert, 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:05.160 but enough to understand what trauma is and what 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.779 it's not and what grief is and what's not. And 00:25:07.779 --> 00:25:10.200 we talked before about the difference between 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:12.380 you want to remember the person you died, but 00:25:12.380 --> 00:25:14.220 you don't remember how they died. It's a big 00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:17.279 difference. Understanding that subtlety is really 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.539 very important. And sadly, because of staff turnover 00:25:20.539 --> 00:25:22.859 and student turnover, the collective knowledge 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.519 in schools changes. We would think, and sometimes 00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:27.559 we go in and do a training and the school feels 00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:29.279 really good and they have all that knowledge, 00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:32.039 but people leave and people retire, people transfer 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:33.660 to local schools, the children you mentioned 00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:36.240 leave, and that collective knowledge is lost. 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.420 So it's the vigilance to know we have to keep 00:25:38.420 --> 00:25:41.160 training and retraining and retraining. And that's 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:43.900 so very important. And the other thing to appreciate 00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:47.380 is that we can't protect our children from all 00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:49.720 the harmful things that can happen to them. Sadly, 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:53.160 I wish we could, but it's not possible. And sadly, 00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:56.259 school shootings or acts of violence, hatred, 00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.019 prejudice, things happen. And we want to work 00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:02.059 as a culture to minimize them. But helping children 00:26:02.059 --> 00:26:04.059 know when these things happen, what the personal 00:26:04.059 --> 00:26:07.240 impact on them and how they can develop tools 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:09.420 and skills to deal with them in the future can 00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:12.420 be very important. And that's why. Hopefully 00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:14.380 children won't experience traumatic events in 00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:16.720 schools, but if they do, well, then how can they 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.099 cope with it? And how can that make them more 00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:20.720 resilient and able to face other things that 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.240 they may face in the future? Putting things away, 00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:25.440 not dealing with it, we've learned, doesn't help 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.480 build resilient children and cultures. So we 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.119 need to help children realize that. You fall, 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:33.200 you skin your knee, you put your Band -Aid on, 00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:35.799 but then you figure out why you fell and how 00:26:35.799 --> 00:26:37.539 to get the Band -Aid and how to address your 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:39.839 own wound. It's an important principle that I 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:41.660 think we need to give our children and give them 00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:44.759 that courage for the future. And one of the strategies 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.200 that I take in my own courses that I instruct 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.160 as well through St. John's University, I know 00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:51.180 Tommy did some coursework there as well. So go, 00:26:51.259 --> 00:26:53.279 Johnnies. That's my alma mater. That's my bachelor's. 00:26:53.299 --> 00:26:55.819 And the work that I do there as well in my dissertation 00:26:55.819 --> 00:26:58.779 through their program is all about. taking trauma 00:26:58.779 --> 00:27:00.839 -informed approaches into the classroom and forming 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:03.859 literature that can help us create a toolkit 00:27:03.859 --> 00:27:09.160 for just handling events in our lives. And most 00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:12.059 of the time it's well -received, but every now 00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:13.980 and again, a student will say, hey, that's a 00:27:13.980 --> 00:27:16.200 little bit triggering for me. And I want to think 00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:19.279 about what are some ways that teachers can address 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:22.460 traumatic events in their classrooms, or rather 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:25.390 even in front of children. that can help them, 00:27:25.390 --> 00:27:27.529 again, become trauma -informed and not trauma 00:27:27.529 --> 00:27:29.049 -triggering? What are some strategies you can 00:27:29.049 --> 00:27:30.829 offer teachers that are talking about history 00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:34.529 with trauma? An important factor is if you want 00:27:34.529 --> 00:27:37.809 to believe in the pyramid of how people process 00:27:37.809 --> 00:27:40.410 events, and cognitive processing therapy talks 00:27:40.410 --> 00:27:43.490 about this. They talk about at the basis is feeling 00:27:43.490 --> 00:27:45.910 safe and feeling safe in your environment, not 00:27:45.910 --> 00:27:48.109 just from violence, but being safe that other 00:27:48.109 --> 00:27:50.450 people will try to protect you and not expose 00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:51.990 you to things that you're not really prepared 00:27:51.990 --> 00:27:55.170 for. If that happens, you begin to trust the 00:27:55.170 --> 00:27:57.769 people that make you feel safe. And you begin 00:27:57.769 --> 00:28:00.910 to let go of control to them because you trust 00:28:00.910 --> 00:28:03.069 them and you feel safe. If you don't feel safe, 00:28:03.170 --> 00:28:05.730 you don't trust other people. And ultimately, 00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:08.309 you don't want to give up control. So you become 00:28:08.309 --> 00:28:11.430 isolated in the sense in terms of feeling it's 00:28:11.430 --> 00:28:15.289 you versus the world. So in a classroom, if you 00:28:15.289 --> 00:28:18.569 expose a child to something that they're not 00:28:18.569 --> 00:28:21.880 ready for. you're taking away their sense of 00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:23.880 safety and trust in you. And they're going to 00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:26.839 want to seize control back from you by not participating 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.519 or by being oppositional or whatever the form 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:34.279 of protest they have. So if you're going to introduce 00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:38.240 traumatic information, the student has to feel 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.880 prepared and that there is a safety process. 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:47.160 We're going to talk about this topic. It's going 00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:49.480 to be next week. If there's a reason you feel 00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:51.839 uncomfortable about that, please talk to me and 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.339 we can maybe give an alternative lesson. But 00:28:55.339 --> 00:28:57.440 if you can't face it before we even get there, 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.480 let's talk about how people handle when trauma 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:03.279 is activated, traumatic memories are activated. 00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:06.259 And same thing with grief and loss. We'll be 00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:08.660 dealing with, in literature, a death of somebody. 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.359 And that doesn't happen oftentimes. Oftentimes 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:14.380 they're assigned a book and they find out like 00:29:14.380 --> 00:29:17.619 for mice and men. Yes, that's our prime one. 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.200 Yep, that's the first one we read. And you tell 00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:22.400 them this is going to be about suicide and this 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:24.799 is about, so that's going to be in the book. 00:29:25.539 --> 00:29:27.960 But before we get to that part and you get to 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:29.960 read that book, let's talk about how you cope 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:31.779 with feelings, strong feelings that might get 00:29:31.779 --> 00:29:34.619 activated or feelings from your past. You don't 00:29:34.619 --> 00:29:37.079 have to be necessarily like yourself, a psychologist 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.240 to help them. get to a therapy session with a 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.319 class, but you need to help them be prepared 00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:45.880 for what it is and how they cope. It might be 00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:48.839 to talk to a friend. It might be to do some exercise. 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.500 It might be to tap into one of the spiritual 00:29:51.500 --> 00:29:55.119 belief systems they believe into. So I'd recommend 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.500 coping first at a light level, even just breathing 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:01.259 exercises, or it's a way to feel that they're 00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:05.019 okay. Informing them that there's a purpose for 00:30:05.019 --> 00:30:07.460 this. It's not just to shock them and overwhelm 00:30:07.460 --> 00:30:10.130 them. And telling them that they're going to 00:30:10.130 --> 00:30:13.190 be facing things at a small level and they don't 00:30:13.190 --> 00:30:15.190 have to worry about being exposed and things. 00:30:15.609 --> 00:30:18.789 And I think that helps this whole process, I 00:30:18.789 --> 00:30:21.529 think, helps people get more used to talking 00:30:21.529 --> 00:30:24.509 more clearly about traumatic events and grief. 00:30:24.690 --> 00:30:27.430 Just a point that I find that I've learned, too. 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.259 People today use trauma for every, it's used 00:30:30.259 --> 00:30:33.599 to describe stressful situations. Like I hear 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:35.400 from students, oh, I had a test tomorrow, I was 00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.559 traumatized. So I said, did the teacher try to 00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:41.710 kill you? Did the teacher take away your life? 00:30:41.849 --> 00:30:44.549 No, it was just stressful. It's stress. Trauma 00:30:44.549 --> 00:30:47.190 is traumatic stress, but it's stress caused by 00:30:47.190 --> 00:30:49.670 trauma versus stress caused by unrealistic demands, 00:30:49.869 --> 00:30:52.549 not feeling prepared. Something happens suddenly. 00:30:52.950 --> 00:30:55.450 So part of the clarification, I always say, make 00:30:55.450 --> 00:30:57.529 sure you don't overuse the trauma word. And that's 00:30:57.529 --> 00:31:00.390 why trauma -informed practices use things like 00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:03.730 the adverse experiences scale to help educate. 00:31:03.849 --> 00:31:06.450 These are what are considered to be adverse experiences, 00:31:06.670 --> 00:31:08.549 but not everybody who has adverse experiences. 00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:12.069 gets PTSD, they might have traumatic memories 00:31:12.069 --> 00:31:15.029 and they might have symptoms that don't form 00:31:15.029 --> 00:31:16.950 the syndrome of post -traumatic stress disorder. 00:31:17.170 --> 00:31:22.230 But understanding that trauma is different than 00:31:22.230 --> 00:31:24.809 stress, but it is a form of stress. That's why 00:31:24.809 --> 00:31:27.690 I do a lot of, when I do training, I always talk 00:31:27.690 --> 00:31:31.250 about traumatic stress and post -traumatic stress 00:31:31.250 --> 00:31:33.670 versus stress because people confuse it all the 00:31:33.670 --> 00:31:36.539 time. Because you mentioned a little bit about 00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:38.359 trigger warnings as well. And I wanted to see 00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:40.099 if you could just briefly elaborate a little 00:31:40.099 --> 00:31:42.579 bit deeper as to just forming that connection 00:31:42.579 --> 00:31:45.160 between presenting information in a way that 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.180 is welcoming, but not enabling the teacher to 00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:50.380 have to be that therapist, like drawing the boundaries 00:31:50.380 --> 00:31:53.019 between the facilitator and the therapist when 00:31:53.019 --> 00:31:55.859 trauma comes up in the classroom. Yeah, what 00:31:55.859 --> 00:31:58.180 I would recommend is that you can't tell what 00:31:58.180 --> 00:32:00.539 will activate a person. You can't really, it 00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:03.369 could be a... detail. It could be identification 00:32:03.369 --> 00:32:06.269 with the story. It could be a lot of things that 00:32:06.269 --> 00:32:08.829 you can't not activate because you're not in 00:32:08.829 --> 00:32:10.890 control. And students won't know what activates 00:32:10.890 --> 00:32:13.869 them too. But letting them know that the story 00:32:13.869 --> 00:32:17.150 contains themes of violence, interpersonal violence, 00:32:17.349 --> 00:32:19.210 which is typically associated with traumatic 00:32:19.210 --> 00:32:23.089 stress, or it contains themes of a loss of a 00:32:23.089 --> 00:32:26.250 family member. And those type of things can sometimes 00:32:26.250 --> 00:32:29.660 activate memories, feelings. That may make us 00:32:29.660 --> 00:32:32.099 feel comfortable. And just to let you know, that 00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:35.000 will be part of it. And again, if you feel that 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:37.140 being part of that lecture or lesson is going 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:39.279 to be too hard for whatever personal reasons, 00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:41.380 you're not this year, just talk to me and we'll 00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:44.039 figure out an alternative. It's that languaging 00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:46.960 that's really important. You can't not activate 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:50.480 people. Now, obviously, showing scenes of carnage 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.309 or things that are horrific, yeah. If it's not 00:32:54.309 --> 00:32:57.710 that, it's kind of hard not to step on toes sometimes. 00:32:57.910 --> 00:33:01.809 The other thing we know about exposure is visual 00:33:01.809 --> 00:33:04.569 is much more impacting. Because it's much more, 00:33:04.609 --> 00:33:07.029 it's like a projective test. You project so much 00:33:07.029 --> 00:33:10.309 into it, violent images, versus verbal. Talking 00:33:10.309 --> 00:33:12.490 through a violent situation has a little different 00:33:12.490 --> 00:33:15.609 feel to it in terms of what can activate the 00:33:15.609 --> 00:33:18.309 children or students more. So sometimes saying, 00:33:18.390 --> 00:33:21.089 well, we're going to talk about 9 -11 and what 00:33:21.089 --> 00:33:22.509 happened, but we're not going to show pictures 00:33:22.509 --> 00:33:24.750 of the planes crashing into the towers or people 00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:26.970 fleeing with blood on them. We're just going 00:33:26.970 --> 00:33:30.500 to talk about that event as an event. but we're 00:33:30.500 --> 00:33:32.319 not going to show images. So there's ways of 00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.200 softening a little bit, but giving people the 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:36.680 control and permission to leave the situation 00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:39.440 if they need to. Again, I brought it up before. 00:33:39.619 --> 00:33:42.759 With trauma, you want to deal with the emotions, 00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:46.119 process it, but then put it away. With grief, 00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:50.019 though, you want to process it, but feel... That 00:33:50.019 --> 00:33:52.000 bond that's there should be something you want 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.000 to remember. You want to remember your parent 00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.240 who died. You don't remember the car accident. 00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:58.619 So it's understanding that difference. And especially 00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:01.339 with big events, you know, the people sadly who 00:34:01.339 --> 00:34:04.599 die in a shooting, you want to remember their 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:06.940 lives and what they meant and how they connected 00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:08.760 with you. You don't remember that they were shot 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.019 and how they died and where they were at the 00:34:11.019 --> 00:34:14.679 time. And I think that's oftentimes how grief 00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.599 and trauma get confused. Absolutely. Thank you 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:19.139 for that point. And I have one more question 00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:21.460 before I come into our end here. And my question 00:34:21.460 --> 00:34:23.639 here is just speaking about the work that you've 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.119 done with the National Center for School Crisis 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.840 and Bereavement or the NCSCB. Could you share 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:32.940 with us some of the tools and frameworks that 00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:36.739 these initiatives have been a part of you as 00:34:36.739 --> 00:34:38.739 an expert and what other schools know about the 00:34:38.739 --> 00:34:42.380 work as well? Sure. The National Center. provides 00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:45.579 free consultations throughout the country and 00:34:45.579 --> 00:34:48.219 even internationally after there's an episode 00:34:48.219 --> 00:34:51.559 of school crisis or disaster, including death 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.059 by suicide, school violence, hurricanes. Currently, 00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:57.219 we're doing a lot of work in Los Angeles after 00:34:57.219 --> 00:34:59.400 the wildfire through Children's Hospital of Los 00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:01.699 Angeles, where Dr. David Schonfeld, who is the 00:35:01.699 --> 00:35:04.000 director of the center, is located. But we provide 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.539 consultation to leadership. We provide training 00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:09.460 for mental health staff to help them deal with 00:35:09.460 --> 00:35:12.300 the situation, which can be overwhelming in any 00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:15.019 locality. So usually we work behind the scenes. 00:35:15.099 --> 00:35:17.579 If you can name a national crisis, we've been 00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:20.469 there in some one way or another. We only share 00:35:20.469 --> 00:35:22.710 where we've been when we have permission from 00:35:22.710 --> 00:35:24.429 the places, so I can't really talk about all 00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:26.349 the places we go to unless we have that permission. 00:35:26.730 --> 00:35:28.949 But the National Center provides that consultation 00:35:28.949 --> 00:35:32.090 via the phone, usually immediately. We have resources 00:35:32.090 --> 00:35:35.429 available on the site about notification, how 00:35:35.429 --> 00:35:38.630 schools can help prepare families. There's downloadable 00:35:38.630 --> 00:35:41.590 PowerPoint presentations all free. So we provide 00:35:41.590 --> 00:35:44.090 that consultation resource, and we also let people 00:35:44.090 --> 00:35:48.179 know about best practices. Linked to the National 00:35:48.179 --> 00:35:50.260 Center for School Crisis and Bereavement is the 00:35:50.260 --> 00:35:52.519 Coalition to Support Grieving Students. And that's 00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:55.960 a group that was created about 10 years ago to 00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.019 help empower schools. And there's modules, videos, 00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:02.019 handouts geared for people who work in schools. 00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:06.539 And the purpose is to give schools that empowerment. 00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:09.059 So teachers can download a module on what to 00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:11.619 say to children. You can download a module about 00:36:11.619 --> 00:36:13.880 should you let kids go to funerals. You can download 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:17.269 a module on how to help people of different cultures 00:36:17.269 --> 00:36:20.110 in your classroom. So what was amazing about 00:36:20.110 --> 00:36:22.530 the Coalition to Support Grieving Students, all 00:36:22.530 --> 00:36:25.949 major unions and organizations supporting schools 00:36:25.949 --> 00:36:29.250 endorse the content and are part of actually 00:36:29.250 --> 00:36:31.730 the coalition. So the superintendents, principals, 00:36:32.230 --> 00:36:34.550 teachers, psychologists, social workers, guidance 00:36:34.550 --> 00:36:37.190 councils, nurses, I probably forgot somebody, 00:36:37.349 --> 00:36:40.150 have all endorsed the content. So they all agreed 00:36:40.150 --> 00:36:43.929 on it. And to date, we have well over 150. organizations 00:36:43.929 --> 00:36:45.750 in the country that all support this content 00:36:45.750 --> 00:36:48.050 curriculum. So that's great news here. We're 00:36:48.050 --> 00:36:50.630 very proud of it. Excellent. Thank you for that 00:36:50.630 --> 00:36:52.630 as well. Did you have any closing thoughts for 00:36:52.630 --> 00:36:54.969 our listeners? Things we wanted to talk about 00:36:54.969 --> 00:36:58.019 today, but didn't just yet? Yeah. Appreciate 00:36:58.019 --> 00:37:00.860 this opportunity, and it's exciting to me to 00:37:00.860 --> 00:37:02.820 have people out there still want to learn about 00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:06.179 trauma and loss and really see how ubiquitous 00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:09.340 it is in our culture and our world and be willing 00:37:09.340 --> 00:37:11.619 to push their knowledge base a little bit and 00:37:11.619 --> 00:37:13.820 realizing that it's, what is it, ordinary magic 00:37:13.820 --> 00:37:16.219 is resilience, as has been talked about. But 00:37:16.219 --> 00:37:18.619 working with trauma and loss, it doesn't have 00:37:18.619 --> 00:37:20.619 to seem so daunting. It could be something that 00:37:20.619 --> 00:37:22.880 we all kind of face into and feel comfortable 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:24.820 with, whether you're an educator or a mental 00:37:24.820 --> 00:37:27.260 health professional. Thank you so much for that. 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.739 And where can listeners go to learn more about 00:37:29.739 --> 00:37:33.480 your work? I would encourage them to go to the 00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:35.719 National Center for School Crisis and Bereavement. 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.059 The website there has an email if they need to 00:37:38.059 --> 00:37:40.559 contact me or there's a phone number if they 00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:43.260 need to have a consultation, all free of charge 00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:46.139 and anonymous. And the Coalition to Support Grieving 00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:49.489 Students is another free. website. We receive 00:37:49.489 --> 00:37:51.329 a lot of our support through the New York Life 00:37:51.329 --> 00:37:53.750 Foundation. And there's books that could be downloaded 00:37:53.750 --> 00:37:56.150 to through that. But those are two great resources. 00:37:57.070 --> 00:38:00.429 Thank you for that. So Dr. DeMaria is here to 00:38:00.429 --> 00:38:02.710 remind us that again, healing is not a destination, 00:38:02.750 --> 00:38:05.250 but rather it is a practice. And there's one 00:38:05.250 --> 00:38:08.059 rooted that is in listening. holding space, and 00:38:08.059 --> 00:38:10.579 choosing to be present for those around us. So 00:38:10.579 --> 00:38:12.159 whether we're teaching in the aftermath of the 00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:14.440 crisis or just building communities as a way 00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:17.280 to proactively prevent harm, Dr. DeMaria is here 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:20.420 to remind us that there is both clarity and care 00:38:20.420 --> 00:38:22.659 in the practices we choose to engage with. So 00:38:22.659 --> 00:38:24.460 Tom, thank you again so much for being here with 00:38:24.460 --> 00:38:27.179 our listeners. Thank you for joining us on the 00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:29.659 Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.739 If today's episode inspired you or made you think 00:38:32.739 --> 00:38:35.190 differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop 00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:37.750 a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts 00:38:37.750 --> 00:38:40.869 and stay connected with us on the At Classroom 00:38:40.869 --> 00:38:43.190 Narratives podcast over Instagram and Facebook. 00:38:43.429 --> 00:38:46.789 Remember, together we can transform our scars 00:38:46.789 --> 00:38:50.309 into stars in education, one conversation at 00:38:50.309 --> 00:38:50.670 a time.