Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in
Education podcast, the space where education
meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in
each episode, we dive deep into the personal
stories of educators, students, leaders, and
frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities
within modern education. Whether you're just
starting your teaching journey, or are we seasoned
professionals looking for inspiration, we'll
explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent
burnout, and build trauma -informed communities
within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at
the front of the classroom as we get started.
Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and
Education Podcast. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and
today's guest is someone whose presence in the
field of trauma -informed care has shaped how
schools and communities respond to crisis. Dr.
Tom DeMaria is a clinical and school psychologist,
a two -time recipient of the New York State Liberty
Award, and a fellow in both the trauma and clinical
divisions of the APA, which is the American Psychological
Association. And Dr. DeMaria assists with coordination
of the National Center for School Crisis and
Bereavement, otherwise known as the NCSCB, as
a way to support grieving students and provide
consultation to schools who are dealing with
both crisis and loss. And from supporting families
after 9 -11 to working with communities in the
wake of both Newtown and Parkland, that's Sandy
Hook and Stoneman Douglas. Dr. DeMaria has spent
his career helping us understand how to hold
space for that grief and how to lead with both
compassion and clarity. And I want to pause and
mention, as I welcome Tom to the show, that I
saw Tom speak on the panel at the 9 -11 exhibit
in February 2025. And that panel was called "Through
Their Eyes: Therapeutic Art for Grieving Children."
And it was really a sensational experience to
listen to, quite frankly, children who are older
than me at 9 -11 work alongside Tom and their
colleagues to find their lives, come back to
them, just find their healing as a way to move
forward from that tragedy and the way that Tom
and his colleagues were able to support them
in doing so. And so with that being said, Tom,
a very warm welcome to our show. And thank you
again for joining me tonight. Oh, you're welcome.
And thank you for that nice introduction. I have
to tape it for my mom. She's 91 now. That's a
blessing in itself. Absolutely. We'll have her
check it out here on the show as well. And so
I have a couple of questions that I'm going to
be asking Tom in terms of just responding to
9 -11 and thinking about the tragedy that happened
24 years ago. And how that knowledge base has
built us into just what we still see in the modern
tragedy. Because again, we say that the past
is practice. But what have we really learned
in terms of just how we keep seeing the cycle
of trauma repeat? And I'm hoping that Tom can
be a voice with his testimony in showing what
skills we can still provide to. both people and
also our schools in general, since we are the
Classroom Narratives podcast that focuses here
on education. So, Tom, the first thing I wanted
to ask you was, what got you interested in the
work that you do? I was working at a hospital.
I was the chief psychologist, and we had received
a message that a plane had crashed in Cove Neck,
the Avianca. plane many years ago. And at that
point in time, there was really no formal structure
to help support families and children. And what
made the situation even more unique, a majority
of people who were on that plane were not English
speaking. So there had to be arrangements made
to have translators come to the site. But then
the question became, well, what do we do then?
People were upset. People were very sad about
what happened. So the question is, What do we
do? So I think based on that tragedy, and the
same thing after tragedies like 9 -11, we learn
more about what we need to know. And from there,
I just pursued more and more education about
trauma and understanding the impact of trauma
on children and adults, families. And that eventually
led me to realize that loss is oftentimes...
not considered when we deal with trauma but every
traumatic situation that happens there's loss
somebody's losing part of their life maybe or
sometimes a sense of safety but A lot of times
it could be functioning or it could be even the
loss of a loved one. So it's broadened that concept.
And I think in the trauma field, what I've seen
a real growth is a respect for the fact that
the number one trauma does sadly create lasting
impact on people. Certainly, we've seen that
with people who are victims of crime or military
veterans. But we're also seeing that trauma can
occur fairly commonly in a lot of people, but
also loss can occur pretty commonly, too. We
know that Most children, by the time they turn
18, will have experienced a loss of a family
member. So how does that corrupt child development?
How does the loss of a mother, father, grandfather,
et cetera, a corrupt thing? So I think my learning
and the field, I think, has progressed in that
way. Thank you for sharing that. And as your
work has progressed, you've been at the front
lines of some of the most profound national tragedies,
which have included 9 -11. Newtown and Parkland.
And these moments have also involved, as you
disclosed on our panel back at the 9 -11 Memorial
in February, right, that there is often young
children involved with loss in these instances.
So I wanted to know if you could share with us
a little bit more about some moments that have
taught you through these tragedies about just
how the emotional architecture of schools and
children work and how grief can eventually just
ripple throughout a community and what experts
in the field like you can do to work through
that, with that. Yeah, and it's a really important
point because I think it led me to rethink, and
that's why I've become more involved with the
National Center for School Crisis and Bereavement,
that A school psychologist, school social worker,
somebody who's in guidance or a school counselor
can't see every child in that building who is
impacted by a loss. We need to educate teachers,
administrators, bus drivers, school custodians,
support staff to all be consistent in their message
that loss is something that affects us all. And
loss is complicated, but it's also simple. It's
based on the bond we had with people. The greater
the bond, the bigger sense of loss we have. and
giving the teachers, educators an opportunity
when grief happens to process it with children.
Children are very different than adults. Adults
can hold it into that 45 -minute therapy session.
Kids' emotions are more fluid. I remember when
I was working with grieving children at the World
Trade Center Family Center. I was playing with
a bunch of children, and one little boy pulled
out a mass card about his father and his funeral,
and the other little boy pulled out one too,
like they were... holding baseball cards. And
one boy said to the other boy, I have one of
those. And yeah, I have one too. And they looked
at each other and they shared that understanding
that each other had lost their dads. And they
put the cards back in their pocket and they kept
playing. So I realized that's how grief works
with children. Grief works in the middle of the
night sometimes when the child can't go to sleep
and they need to have a caring caregiver there
to provide support and safety to the child. Somebody
they can trust will keep them safe. So you realize
that we need to build that foundation in communities,
and we needed to build that consistently. So
in interventions that I've been on, our goal
is not to come in there as outsiders and work
with all the children. Our goal is to build the
educators and people working who have contact
with those children that they can be available,
they can listen, they can make that first step
to talk to a child. Oftentimes, and I've seen
it, hundreds of school consultations. School
staff don't want to hurt children. They're really
supportive to children, so they don't say anything.
that might offend them, but we find that sometimes
gives the message to the children that they can't
talk about their feelings or what's bothering
them. So we encourage schools to initiate the
conversation. Say, listen, I heard your dad died,
and that's sad. If you ever want to talk about
it, I'm here, which in the past would have been,
oh, can't bring it up. lost their dad let's just
keep an eye on them let's not bring it up at
all or if they bring it up up send them right
to the school counselor you know that's not what
a teacher should do rather give teachers the
comfort because they've also been there themselves
and they also have been through that experience
that they can be supportive to children let them
know it's okay grief can occur at any time be
triggered and activated as can trauma and but
give people the comfort that they can help in
the schools and make the schools really a safe
place for children The other side of it, it's
a 9 -11 story, too. I worked, as most people
did, trying to provide support to the families
or first responders. And I remember not being
home for a while because I was busy at the hospital,
busy at our family center, helping families.
And one day, my wife said, you've got to take
a break. So about a couple of months after 9
-11, we went apple picking out east in Long Island.
And I was at my son, who was maybe four or five
years old, and we were picking apples. I felt
this tugging on my shoulder and I said, what's
going on? And he says, dad, do we need all these
apples? And I looked down and there was a wagon
full of hundreds of apples that I had picked.
I realized, okay, okay. I was getting overloaded
with compassion fatigue that carries trauma.
And I realized back then if I was going to keep
doing this work, I had to take care of myself.
I had to put my family and myself in the mix
in terms of getting that support. And that helped
me. I think it's helped me stay fresh. for people,
and it's helped me not dread the work of going
into a crisis situation. You feel it. Being in
our field, you have to be empathic and caring,
but you also have to protect yourself too. So
I realized you got to be there, but you got to
not let the person you're trying to help you
because they see you're burnt out or disconnecting
in any way. So, Tom, you just took me in a bunch
of different directions, and I'm so glad that
you did because I wanted it to come from you
and not from me. So I think that's awesome. Thank
you for that. So I'll share a little story. And
Tom, the way that you and I met face -to -face
is because after the panel, well, let me back
up. During the panel, it was a panel on 9 -11
back in February, but Parkland came up as a response
that you had made at that time. And instantly,
I mean, you had already had my attention, but
you really got me there because I'm from Parkland.
I'm in Parkland. Our listeners are also from
the area. They're my colleagues who were there
and experienced that loss. By hearing that, I
knew you would be the perfect voice for this
project. And the story is that I was actually
one of the first substitute teachers to be invited
back into the building to Stoneman Douglas on
March 14th, 28 days after the tragedy had happened.
The school opened up on February 28th, and I
came back on the 14th of March. And as I'm coming
back, I'm sitting in the same classrooms as students
who were in that 1200 building. we didn't really
have training. Like I saw some grief counseling
before I went back, but especially as the substitute,
I'm just a community member. Nobody really trained
us how to actually talk with students and guide
students. So we were actually encouraged to just
brush it off and be quiet and let them go to
the professionals, which actually looking back
was not a terrible idea. But still by being there
and letting students share their stories freely,
if they so wanted to, I did get a lot of vicarious
trauma from that. And in the fall, I was working
at their feeder middle school, which is also
where I was the day of the shooting, where students
from those classes had lost siblings, friends,
had parents in that building. And I worked with
those students as their interim part -time teacher
that entire fall semester, 2018. So then the
next spring comes along and I moved to another
city, the same district, different city. And
February comes along once again. Now it's 2019.
And the administration says to us, there's one
student that we know in this school, a year later,
who is still struggling with the loss of a good
friend from Parkland. If you know her, do not
see her, do not talk to her, do not bring it
up, just completely ignore it, just brush it
off. Which kind of goes back into what you mentioned,
where it's very easy to have that kind of response.
That student actually came to visit my classroom
for an activity through another teacher. I just
noticed that there was a sign on her backpack
that represented the loss of one of the people
from the tragedy. And I happened to casually
ask, hey, does that represent the loss of so
-and -so? That's all I had to ask. That student
looked at me and she said, you are just the person
I need to talk to. Thank you for bringing that
up. And she became my student that next year.
And I felt like having those conversations with
that student was a way for me to overcome my
own vicarious trauma. But in a way, I also had
to be very careful in a way that I was not inducing
more trauma into that child. So the two -fold
question that I wanted to ask is, for our teachers
that really struggle with addressing trauma,
how can you work to take care of yourself as
the educator and managing those traumas and also
approach students in a way that is trauma -informed
and not trauma -induced? There's an important
differentiation, and that's that grief and trauma
are mixed together. And oftentimes it's hard
to separate them. Certainly the courage of both
the students and staff at Marjory Stoneman Douglas
still impresses me to this day. But what's difficult
is when it's mixed together. And with trauma,
when it's activated, you want to be able to manage
the feelings. and put it away. You want to be
able to process it and put it away. With grief,
when it's activated, you want to manage the feelings,
but you want to remember the bond. And that's
what's tricky because it's one size doesn't fit
all. So the people who are in the school or had
siblings in the school or were connected, we
all have connection. It's the six degrees of
separation issue. We all are connected. It's
hard to disentangle the elements of what happened.
that's traumatic from that which involves a deep
loss of a bond of a teacher, the brave teachers
that were there. So how do you disentangle one
with the other? So when approaching children,
it's making sure that you initiate a conversation
without necessarily activating the trauma, knowing
that may be something the child does not want
to happen. That's why it can be difficult. But
oftentimes children are happy, in a sense, talking.
about their loss or the people, the bond with
the person that they lost. So that navigation
can be a little tricky. But I find giving the
child permission and asking them very innocent
questions and not pushing them, letting the child
know that invitation's there, can help them discern
what they wanted. If the child that you approach
said, I don't want to talk about it, that's cool.
Then you just say, hey, I'm here if you do. That's
it. And knowing when to back away is really important.
And that's something that needs to be kept in
mind. But oftentimes, I once had a child, not
at Parkland, but another district that we did.
And I went back for a follow -up visit. And I
had just said hi. And the child came up to me
and said, can we talk? You seem like a good guy.
And the only reason they came up is because I
had just made myself available by saying hello.
So oftentimes, those connections are important.
The other part of your question, though, is you're
right. Being yourself, you get put into a tough
situation. And what happens is that being empathic,
we feel what other people feel, and we want to
help. And it's hard to listen and to take a lot
in. We encourage people to know their limits
and also to know what they're bringing into the
situation. Oftentimes, people do have exposure
to prior trauma, either through their work experience,
sometimes could be a death by suicide, sometimes
it could be violence that they may have seen,
a car accident, whatever. Know what you're bringing
in, know what your limitations are, and know
when after you've had a lot of compassion fatigue.
after listening to students, know how you best
can handle it. For some people, it's exercising,
spending time with family, distracting themselves.
For other people, it's sharing with a colleague
and just saying, wow, can we talk? That was rough.
Or a family member. So knowing your limits and
knowing when you do have it that you need not
to go pick apples. You need to be able to find
somebody that you can... talk to and process
a lot of that stuff. It goes back to the whole
theory of therapy. A lot of therapy is by talking
through, we get insight, because just by thinking
it in our own heads, it doesn't really resolve
issues. But talking to another person could be
magical in a lot of ways. But not everybody wants
to do that, and that's okay. But people, school
staff need to realize that that's something that's
very important. And you can't mandate people
to share, because that's not the way they handle
it. But giving them the opportunity is very important.
The talk therapy that invites but doesn't mandate
other people to participate in that dialogue.
Children will oftentimes, if they're carrying
a burden, won't tell everybody. They'll oftentimes
find the one person that they feel they can connect
with in some way. So it can be felt like a burden,
but there's also something called compassion
satisfaction. Knowing a child like the child
who came to you to talk. trusted you or saw something
that they could share is what an honor that is.
And that's something that's really important
that you find satisfaction in the fact that you
helped that child on a pathway. You don't need
to be the therapist and you don't need to be
anywhere, but they reached out to you. You opened
the door for that child. That's just a wonderful
feeling. And we talked about compassion fatigue,
but compassion satisfaction is a very important
part of it. I would believe that I would be speaking
for many different kinds of educators who continue
to struggle with bringing that baggage home at
night from what they've experienced in the day
in their classrooms. And to those educators who
are listening, I applaud you and I hope that
Dr. DeMaria is here to give you the tools that
you need to move forward from that headspace.
And Tom, you have a great point that teachers
are not therapists, but I think all it takes
to acknowledge a child is just by being a good
person and a good listener. And students have
very good intuition. And when they know that
they have someone that they can address that
with, they're very likely to be honest and open
with us. And I think about that a lot when I
think back to teachers that I've enjoyed the
most. And when I look at my own end of the semester
evaluations at the schools I teach at, students
will more than likely say, we like him because
he cared. And they pick up and they pick it up.
It's amazing. Oftentimes with people I've worked
with, children, I'll go, I have to tell you something.
Oh, it looks like you're going on vacation. I
said, I didn't say anything. It looks like you
can tell it on your face. It's amazing how being
open and honest with children is really important.
And sincerity and caring is really important.
And that's why I think we need to do our own
homework after a tragedy occurs. If we're mourning
a loss, it's going to be hard for us to ask about
loss. But not impossible. It just means we have
to be open that we might have feelings stirred
up too when talking to a child. Children, especially
children who go through tragedies, stir up so
much strong emotions. And I think we just have
to be aware that's may happen. And we need to
make sure that we have our place to go to make
sure those feelings are processed. Absolutely.
And that leads me to my next question, because
again, you have responded to many different types
of disasters in educational settings. And I wanted
to think about what have you learned? from Newtown
to Parkland based on 9 -11. And I guess what
I'm wondering here is if you could share, how
has your knowledge base developed from tragedy
to tragedy in terms of things that have worked,
things that have been consistent, things that
you adjusted in between, and what that's done
for you as an expert in this time? What always
impressed me is the courage. of children and
the dedication of school staff. I think it's
just so impressive that even after the most horrific
things, children want to go back to school. They
wanted to support their peers and helping them
believe that is a strength that they can always
tap into while acknowledging, though, that sometimes
thoughts and feelings can linger a little bit.
And so it's helping people. It's commending strength.
but letting people know that they still have
to make sure that there's nothing kicking around.
Not treating everybody who goes through a trauma
as needing trauma treatment, but letting them
know what post -traumatic stress is, letting
them know what grief is, giving those tools and
letting them know the door is open. It's an empowerment
model. I've learned that as much as I'd love
to do therapy with everybody when I go to a tragedy,
It's empowering them with information, empowering
the staff in a school that the magic is in their
hands and they can do that work. And certainly
you want to have screening available for children
who show more serious signs that they may need
support. They're self -destructive or violent
or whatever. But most children need that encouragement
to help others, to help their peers. And most
staff realize that they have the power also.
It's an amazing thing to do. to do empowerment
work and not wait till it becomes something that
you have to do an intervention for. After 9 -11,
we set up the 9 -11 Family Center. I think we
worked with several thousand family members who
lost people in 9 -11. And I remember being asked,
are you doing assessments at everybody who comes
in? I said, what do you mean? Well, have you
done full assessments on all the children and
adults? It was a mental health model, which is
certainly important. And I said, well, if the
children are showing signs. then we would do
that. But we're community -based. We're trying
to build a healing community, a community based
on trauma theory, grief theory that can help.
But we want a center that can help people feel
empowered enough to help themselves. I think
oftentimes when people feel that they're just
the recipient. of services and not fully participating,
they don't feel that sense of control they need
and agency in their lives. And that I've picked
up in the field. It's about giving people agency
to find the way and to really help themselves.
I love that response because it helps me ask
my next question, which is how many schools today
are still continuing to struggle and address
grief in real time, like if there's a loss by
suicide in the community or... By the time that
we're recording this on April 23rd, our listeners
will hear this in May or even over the summer.
But at the time of this recording, there was
a shooting at Florida State University in Tallahassee
over the weekend where actually many freshmen
who were in that building at Stoneman Douglas
are about to graduate from that same college
or university. and next month in May. So that
freshman eight years later, they now have a second
tragedy. And in addressing these types of griefs
and traumas in real time, again, rather it's
student loss, national tragedies, or even just
collective burnout and exhaustion, especially
in today's climate. What are some of the core
principles that schools can follow as a blueprint
to handle those responses? Well, the first thing
is that I think every school needs to become
trauma -informed and grief -sensitive. All staff
have to have that working knowledge. The coaches,
the school bus driver, the person in the cafeteria,
you don't know who the child or adolescent is
going to gravitate to. But letting them know
at least about... what can be expected in terms
of what they've been through, I think is essential.
Because again, giving them that knowledge, a
lot of children and adolescents who start having
hyperventilation after being exposed to a grief
or trauma activator. may think they're crazy,
may think they're going crazy, and they don't
understand that it traces back to this loss of
feelings of safety. Bad dreams you had, the sleep
difficulties might be because you had a dream
about dad or mom or your classmate who died.
Understanding mental health issues, for example,
after a death by suicide. In the past, people
would just not talk about it. But now we need
to talk about mental health issues that affect
people, that lead to death by suicides and depression
awareness, mental health awareness. So it's education
before the event. Because training during an
event when people can't learn because they're
so preoccupied with a lot of different things
is really hard. So we encourage getting the training
done beforehand to understand these basic principles
and concepts. Not everybody has to be an expert,
but enough to understand what trauma is and what
it's not and what grief is and what's not. And
we talked before about the difference between
you want to remember the person you died, but
you don't remember how they died. It's a big
difference. Understanding that subtlety is really
very important. And sadly, because of staff turnover
and student turnover, the collective knowledge
in schools changes. We would think, and sometimes
we go in and do a training and the school feels
really good and they have all that knowledge,
but people leave and people retire, people transfer
to local schools, the children you mentioned
leave, and that collective knowledge is lost.
So it's the vigilance to know we have to keep
training and retraining and retraining. And that's
so very important. And the other thing to appreciate
is that we can't protect our children from all
the harmful things that can happen to them. Sadly,
I wish we could, but it's not possible. And sadly,
school shootings or acts of violence, hatred,
prejudice, things happen. And we want to work
as a culture to minimize them. But helping children
know when these things happen, what the personal
impact on them and how they can develop tools
and skills to deal with them in the future can
be very important. And that's why. Hopefully
children won't experience traumatic events in
schools, but if they do, well, then how can they
cope with it? And how can that make them more
resilient and able to face other things that
they may face in the future? Putting things away,
not dealing with it, we've learned, doesn't help
build resilient children and cultures. So we
need to help children realize that. You fall,
you skin your knee, you put your Band -Aid on,
but then you figure out why you fell and how
to get the Band -Aid and how to address your
own wound. It's an important principle that I
think we need to give our children and give them
that courage for the future. And one of the strategies
that I take in my own courses that I instruct
as well through St. John's University, I know
Tommy did some coursework there as well. So go,
Johnnies. That's my alma mater. That's my bachelor's.
And the work that I do there as well in my dissertation
through their program is all about. taking trauma
-informed approaches into the classroom and forming
literature that can help us create a toolkit
for just handling events in our lives. And most
of the time it's well -received, but every now
and again, a student will say, hey, that's a
little bit triggering for me. And I want to think
about what are some ways that teachers can address
traumatic events in their classrooms, or rather
even in front of children. that can help them,
again, become trauma -informed and not trauma
-triggering? What are some strategies you can
offer teachers that are talking about history
with trauma? An important factor is if you want
to believe in the pyramid of how people process
events, and cognitive processing therapy talks
about this. They talk about at the basis is feeling
safe and feeling safe in your environment, not
just from violence, but being safe that other
people will try to protect you and not expose
you to things that you're not really prepared
for. If that happens, you begin to trust the
people that make you feel safe. And you begin
to let go of control to them because you trust
them and you feel safe. If you don't feel safe,
you don't trust other people. And ultimately,
you don't want to give up control. So you become
isolated in the sense in terms of feeling it's
you versus the world. So in a classroom, if you
expose a child to something that they're not
ready for. you're taking away their sense of
safety and trust in you. And they're going to
want to seize control back from you by not participating
or by being oppositional or whatever the form
of protest they have. So if you're going to introduce
traumatic information, the student has to feel
prepared and that there is a safety process.
We're going to talk about this topic. It's going
to be next week. If there's a reason you feel
uncomfortable about that, please talk to me and
we can maybe give an alternative lesson. But
if you can't face it before we even get there,
let's talk about how people handle when trauma
is activated, traumatic memories are activated.
And same thing with grief and loss. We'll be
dealing with, in literature, a death of somebody.
And that doesn't happen oftentimes. Oftentimes
they're assigned a book and they find out like
for mice and men. Yes, that's our prime one.
Yep, that's the first one we read. And you tell
them this is going to be about suicide and this
is about, so that's going to be in the book.
But before we get to that part and you get to
read that book, let's talk about how you cope
with feelings, strong feelings that might get
activated or feelings from your past. You don't
have to be necessarily like yourself, a psychologist
to help them. get to a therapy session with a
class, but you need to help them be prepared
for what it is and how they cope. It might be
to talk to a friend. It might be to do some exercise.
It might be to tap into one of the spiritual
belief systems they believe into. So I'd recommend
coping first at a light level, even just breathing
exercises, or it's a way to feel that they're
okay. Informing them that there's a purpose for
this. It's not just to shock them and overwhelm
them. And telling them that they're going to
be facing things at a small level and they don't
have to worry about being exposed and things.
And I think that helps this whole process, I
think, helps people get more used to talking
more clearly about traumatic events and grief.
Just a point that I find that I've learned, too.
People today use trauma for every, it's used
to describe stressful situations. Like I hear
from students, oh, I had a test tomorrow, I was
traumatized. So I said, did the teacher try to
kill you? Did the teacher take away your life?
No, it was just stressful. It's stress. Trauma
is traumatic stress, but it's stress caused by
trauma versus stress caused by unrealistic demands,
not feeling prepared. Something happens suddenly.
So part of the clarification, I always say, make
sure you don't overuse the trauma word. And that's
why trauma -informed practices use things like
the adverse experiences scale to help educate.
These are what are considered to be adverse experiences,
but not everybody who has adverse experiences.
gets PTSD, they might have traumatic memories
and they might have symptoms that don't form
the syndrome of post -traumatic stress disorder.
But understanding that trauma is different than
stress, but it is a form of stress. That's why
I do a lot of, when I do training, I always talk
about traumatic stress and post -traumatic stress
versus stress because people confuse it all the
time. Because you mentioned a little bit about
trigger warnings as well. And I wanted to see
if you could just briefly elaborate a little
bit deeper as to just forming that connection
between presenting information in a way that
is welcoming, but not enabling the teacher to
have to be that therapist, like drawing the boundaries
between the facilitator and the therapist when
trauma comes up in the classroom. Yeah, what
I would recommend is that you can't tell what
will activate a person. You can't really, it
could be a... detail. It could be identification
with the story. It could be a lot of things that
you can't not activate because you're not in
control. And students won't know what activates
them too. But letting them know that the story
contains themes of violence, interpersonal violence,
which is typically associated with traumatic
stress, or it contains themes of a loss of a
family member. And those type of things can sometimes
activate memories, feelings. That may make us
feel comfortable. And just to let you know, that
will be part of it. And again, if you feel that
being part of that lecture or lesson is going
to be too hard for whatever personal reasons,
you're not this year, just talk to me and we'll
figure out an alternative. It's that languaging
that's really important. You can't not activate
people. Now, obviously, showing scenes of carnage
or things that are horrific, yeah. If it's not
that, it's kind of hard not to step on toes sometimes.
The other thing we know about exposure is visual
is much more impacting. Because it's much more,
it's like a projective test. You project so much
into it, violent images, versus verbal. Talking
through a violent situation has a little different
feel to it in terms of what can activate the
children or students more. So sometimes saying,
well, we're going to talk about 9 -11 and what
happened, but we're not going to show pictures
of the planes crashing into the towers or people
fleeing with blood on them. We're just going
to talk about that event as an event. but we're
not going to show images. So there's ways of
softening a little bit, but giving people the
control and permission to leave the situation
if they need to. Again, I brought it up before.
With trauma, you want to deal with the emotions,
process it, but then put it away. With grief,
though, you want to process it, but feel... That
bond that's there should be something you want
to remember. You want to remember your parent
who died. You don't remember the car accident.
So it's understanding that difference. And especially
with big events, you know, the people sadly who
die in a shooting, you want to remember their
lives and what they meant and how they connected
with you. You don't remember that they were shot
and how they died and where they were at the
time. And I think that's oftentimes how grief
and trauma get confused. Absolutely. Thank you
for that point. And I have one more question
before I come into our end here. And my question
here is just speaking about the work that you've
done with the National Center for School Crisis
and Bereavement or the NCSCB. Could you share
with us some of the tools and frameworks that
these initiatives have been a part of you as
an expert and what other schools know about the
work as well? Sure. The National Center. provides
free consultations throughout the country and
even internationally after there's an episode
of school crisis or disaster, including death
by suicide, school violence, hurricanes. Currently,
we're doing a lot of work in Los Angeles after
the wildfire through Children's Hospital of Los
Angeles, where Dr. David Schonfeld, who is the
director of the center, is located. But we provide
consultation to leadership. We provide training
for mental health staff to help them deal with
the situation, which can be overwhelming in any
locality. So usually we work behind the scenes.
If you can name a national crisis, we've been
there in some one way or another. We only share
where we've been when we have permission from
the places, so I can't really talk about all
the places we go to unless we have that permission.
But the National Center provides that consultation
via the phone, usually immediately. We have resources
available on the site about notification, how
schools can help prepare families. There's downloadable
PowerPoint presentations all free. So we provide
that consultation resource, and we also let people
know about best practices. Linked to the National
Center for School Crisis and Bereavement is the
Coalition to Support Grieving Students. And that's
a group that was created about 10 years ago to
help empower schools. And there's modules, videos,
handouts geared for people who work in schools.
And the purpose is to give schools that empowerment.
So teachers can download a module on what to
say to children. You can download a module about
should you let kids go to funerals. You can download
a module on how to help people of different cultures
in your classroom. So what was amazing about
the Coalition to Support Grieving Students, all
major unions and organizations supporting schools
endorse the content and are part of actually
the coalition. So the superintendents, principals,
teachers, psychologists, social workers, guidance
councils, nurses, I probably forgot somebody,
have all endorsed the content. So they all agreed
on it. And to date, we have well over 150. organizations
in the country that all support this content
curriculum. So that's great news here. We're
very proud of it. Excellent. Thank you for that
as well. Did you have any closing thoughts for
our listeners? Things we wanted to talk about
today, but didn't just yet? Yeah. Appreciate
this opportunity, and it's exciting to me to
have people out there still want to learn about
trauma and loss and really see how ubiquitous
it is in our culture and our world and be willing
to push their knowledge base a little bit and
realizing that it's, what is it, ordinary magic
is resilience, as has been talked about. But
working with trauma and loss, it doesn't have
to seem so daunting. It could be something that
we all kind of face into and feel comfortable
with, whether you're an educator or a mental
health professional. Thank you so much for that.
And where can listeners go to learn more about
your work? I would encourage them to go to the
National Center for School Crisis and Bereavement.
The website there has an email if they need to
contact me or there's a phone number if they
need to have a consultation, all free of charge
and anonymous. And the Coalition to Support Grieving
Students is another free. website. We receive
a lot of our support through the New York Life
Foundation. And there's books that could be downloaded
to through that. But those are two great resources.
Thank you for that. So Dr. DeMaria is here to
remind us that again, healing is not a destination,
but rather it is a practice. And there's one
rooted that is in listening. holding space, and
choosing to be present for those around us. So
whether we're teaching in the aftermath of the
crisis or just building communities as a way
to proactively prevent harm, Dr. DeMaria is here
to remind us that there is both clarity and care
in the practices we choose to engage with. So
Tom, thank you again so much for being here with
our listeners. Thank you for joining us on the
Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast.
If today's episode inspired you or made you think
differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop
a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts
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Remember, together we can transform our scars
into stars in education, one conversation at
a time.