00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.419 Welcome to the Classroom Narratives: Healing in 00:00:02.419 --> 00:00:04.900 Education podcast, the space where education 00:00:04.900 --> 00:00:09.019 meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in 00:00:09.019 --> 00:00:11.400 each episode, we dive deep into the personal 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.099 stories of educators, students, leaders, and 00:00:15.099 --> 00:00:18.079 frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:21.260 within modern education. Whether you're just 00:00:21.260 --> 00:00:23.879 starting your teaching journey, or are we seasoned 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:26.260 professionals looking for inspiration, we'll 00:00:26.260 --> 00:00:29.059 explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent 00:00:29.059 --> 00:00:31.859 burnout, and build trauma -informed communities 00:00:31.859 --> 00:00:34.979 within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at 00:00:34.979 --> 00:00:36.799 the front of the classroom as we get started. 00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:39.500 Welcome back to the Classroom Narrators podcast, 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:42.159 the space where education continues to meet resilience. 00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:45.740 I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and today's guest is someone 00:00:45.740 --> 00:00:48.439 who embodies what it means to reimagine how we 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:50.899 show up for students, especially those whose 00:00:50.899 --> 00:00:54.700 brains works outside the box. Dr. Matt Zakreski 00:00:54.700 --> 00:00:57.320 is a clinical psychologist, gifted education 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:01.479 expert, keynote speaker, and author of the Neurodiversity 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:04.280 Playbook, where he's coaching schools, and speaking 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:07.120 across the globe. From leading the Neurodiversity 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.439 Collective. Dr. Matt brings dynamic, joyful insight 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:13.000 to the conversation on how to celebrate, support, 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:16.159 and advocate for neurodivergent students. We're 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:17.840 going to be talking today about how we can build 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:20.140 classrooms where all kinds of minds can thrive. 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:22.200 So Dr. Matt, thanks for being here. Welcome to 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.120 the show! It is my great pleasure. Thank you 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.480 for having me. I mean, when you reached out, 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:29.459 I was like, this is definitely a person I want 00:01:29.459 --> 00:01:32.260 to talk to. So it's great that we're doing this. 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.640 This is awesome. And I met Dr. Matt through listening 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:38.340 to a segment that was promoted by Dr. Jen Rafferty 00:01:38.340 --> 00:01:41.579 on the "Take Notes" podcast. And Dr. Rafferty and 00:01:41.579 --> 00:01:45.340 I spoke back in the fall of 2024. So for those 00:01:45.340 --> 00:01:47.680 of us who are listening today, I will put a link 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:51.239 to Jen's episode with me, as well as Jen's episode 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.200 with Matt found in my show notes. So you can 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.480 see how this whole circle kind of all came together 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:59.439 in our conversations. One thing I wanted to begin 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:01.200 by sharing, which I've done a couple of times 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.920 on our podcast here, is that my very first year 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:06.959 of teaching was actually for a calendar year, 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:09.699 not a school year, but a calendar year from January 00:02:09.699 --> 00:02:13.680 through December in the year 2019. And during 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:16.879 that time, I was an instructor for Cambridge 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.139 Gifted Accelerating 8th grade students in a district, 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.400 the same district actually, where the mass shooting 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:26.759 in Parkland took place just the school year before 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.020 where some of my students were still working 00:02:30.020 --> 00:02:33.020 through their PTSD from what they saw their friends 00:02:33.020 --> 00:02:35.500 witness in the next city. But of course, we couldn't 00:02:35.500 --> 00:02:38.060 talk about that because addressing trauma didn't 00:02:38.060 --> 00:02:42.319 fit into our curriculum. And so as their English 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.430 educator, I've changed the narrative in my mind 00:02:45.430 --> 00:02:47.629 a couple of times, and we're actually going to 00:02:47.629 --> 00:02:49.530 be hearing from my own students from that same 00:02:49.530 --> 00:02:51.789 class in a couple of weeks from here, probably 00:02:51.789 --> 00:02:56.069 in the summer or fall here, 2025. And those students 00:02:56.069 --> 00:02:58.229 are actually going to be talking about and reminiscing 00:02:58.229 --> 00:03:00.310 what it was like that year to be in my classes 00:03:00.310 --> 00:03:02.669 and share, now that they're in college, what 00:03:02.669 --> 00:03:05.430 education has done for them. So I'm excited for 00:03:05.430 --> 00:03:07.969 that. But the narrative has changed in my own 00:03:07.969 --> 00:03:10.870 mind a couple of times, where even though I know 00:03:10.870 --> 00:03:14.370 that I was appreciated by the student body in 00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:17.770 that first year. I look back and I'm like, maybe 00:03:17.770 --> 00:03:19.710 I really was not the right teacher for them. 00:03:19.789 --> 00:03:22.530 Like my imposter syndrome kicks in. And I always 00:03:22.530 --> 00:03:25.729 remember how my own chair said to me, "wow, you 00:03:25.729 --> 00:03:27.669 are just not right for this job." She said that to 00:03:27.669 --> 00:03:30.150 me in like September or October. And I sit here 00:03:30.150 --> 00:03:32.069 and I think, you know, maybe there was some validity 00:03:32.069 --> 00:03:37.930 to that. And I think about conversations I had 00:03:37.930 --> 00:03:40.629 with my students. And one of them was when we 00:03:40.629 --> 00:03:44.250 were reading Of Mice and Men. And I asked these 00:03:44.250 --> 00:03:46.469 students, when opening up a piece of literature 00:03:46.469 --> 00:03:49.250 like Of Mice and Men, what does it feel like 00:03:49.250 --> 00:03:53.069 when one can connect to being an outsider? And 00:03:53.069 --> 00:03:55.050 if you do, now you know what it feels like to 00:03:55.050 --> 00:03:56.750 be like all the different characters in this 00:03:56.750 --> 00:04:00.949 text. And a lot of these students really shocked 00:04:00.949 --> 00:04:03.930 me by opening Pandora's box and saying that they 00:04:03.930 --> 00:04:06.349 felt different issues in their mental health, 00:04:06.449 --> 00:04:11.240 orientation, and things that I... neglected to 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:14.099 connect to sooner because I thought that my gifted 00:04:14.099 --> 00:04:17.620 students were superhero children. We actually 00:04:17.620 --> 00:04:19.819 have in my second one, Dr. Rafferty, she talks 00:04:19.819 --> 00:04:22.259 about the superhero educator and how to break 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:26.040 that cycle. But from the educator, I saw my own 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:28.800 students as superheroes. I remember when they 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:30.660 were signing up for their AP Lang classes the 00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:33.879 next year, I took out my AP Lang notebook, which 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.279 was probably the size of five binders, and I 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.189 had my 14 -year -olds hold that binder. to say 00:04:40.189 --> 00:04:42.250 this is the quantity of work you're going to 00:04:42.250 --> 00:04:45.009 be challenged to do and i want you to do it because 00:04:45.009 --> 00:04:47.410 you're a superhero child you can make it happen 00:04:47.410 --> 00:04:50.810 you got this and I think I enable that in the 00:04:50.810 --> 00:04:53.470 form of toxicity maybe it wasn't as bad as i 00:04:53.470 --> 00:04:55.370 remember it but again i'm changing the narrative 00:04:55.370 --> 00:04:57.730 and the one that makes me look like the villain 00:04:57.730 --> 00:05:01.209 in my own story and, Dr Matt, I wanted to begin 00:05:01.209 --> 00:05:04.110 by asking you say again a couple things here 00:05:04.110 --> 00:05:08.339 that the key to education is supporting flexible 00:05:08.339 --> 00:05:12.000 pedagogy and flexible learning. And when we talk 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:14.220 about flexible learning in the gifted classroom, 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:17.019 how can we do that in a way to help understand 00:05:17.019 --> 00:05:21.220 how the gifted child works and also validating 00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:23.699 that their failure is fundamental? It's a lot 00:05:23.699 --> 00:05:26.699 of questions rolled into one. I love that. Well, 00:05:26.779 --> 00:05:30.279 and if we can even roll back the tape to that 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.279 feedback, like "you're not the right fit for this 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:38.610 class", one of the things that I truly believe, 00:05:38.870 --> 00:05:41.990 as long as you are not doing harm to a child, 00:05:42.110 --> 00:05:46.750 that you can grow and evolve into a role. You 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:49.589 maybe weren't the right fit when it started, 00:05:49.689 --> 00:05:52.730 or maybe you were. Frankly, that kind of feedback 00:05:52.730 --> 00:05:54.889 is not helpful, right? We always tell people, 00:05:54.990 --> 00:05:57.370 parents and teachers and mental health professionals, 00:05:57.569 --> 00:06:00.069 don't give them a negative without a direction. 00:06:00.529 --> 00:06:02.709 Like, stop doing that. Okay, what should I do 00:06:02.709 --> 00:06:05.740 instead? You know, you're not the right teacher 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:08.060 for them. Tell me how I can be. Tell me what 00:06:08.060 --> 00:06:10.500 I should be doing instead. Give me a direction. 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:13.600 Because what happens if I just say, no, you suck 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:16.360 at this. I'm not telling you how to get better. 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:19.139 Right. And that ties into this idea of failure, 00:06:19.220 --> 00:06:22.680 because for most people in life, you don't get 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.040 the job. The person says no to prom. You don't 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.360 get into your dream school. You get a C minus 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.879 on the test. You bomb the SAT, whatever it is. 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:34.680 Then the conversation collapses. The best thing 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:37.480 that ever happened to me in terms of failure, 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:39.800 I talk about this when I do my talk on failure, 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:45.139 is I was a pretty high level cartoonist in high 00:06:45.139 --> 00:06:48.000 school and college. And I was nominated for a 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.579 major award after undergrad. And we're at the 00:06:51.579 --> 00:06:54.040 American Association of Editorial Cartoonists. 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:56.220 And I was getting my work adjudicated by a famous 00:06:56.220 --> 00:06:59.720 cartoonist. And she shredded it. She's like, 00:06:59.740 --> 00:07:01.699 this is the worst thing I've ever seen. Your 00:07:01.699 --> 00:07:06.290 ideas are... basic and boring and i went and 00:07:06.290 --> 00:07:09.250 cried in the bathroom for a while but hidden 00:07:09.250 --> 00:07:13.089 in her pages of notes of how terrible i was a 00:07:13.089 --> 00:07:15.610 single line towards the end that was like he 00:07:15.610 --> 00:07:19.149 shows promise as a graphic artist not as an editorial 00:07:19.149 --> 00:07:23.829 cartoonist and that feedback had me start my 00:07:23.829 --> 00:07:26.589 web comic which i did for two years and it's 00:07:26.589 --> 00:07:28.970 the sort of thing like the lessons of failure 00:07:28.970 --> 00:07:33.529 are not always immediate. Like you've got to 00:07:33.529 --> 00:07:37.769 mourn that failure first. Yes. Right? Like if 00:07:37.769 --> 00:07:41.290 you take the SAT and you get a 920, I don't want 00:07:41.290 --> 00:07:44.189 you to take the SAT the next day. I want you 00:07:44.189 --> 00:07:47.550 to think about it. What worked? What didn't work? 00:07:47.649 --> 00:07:49.490 What can we do different? Should you have gone 00:07:49.490 --> 00:07:53.050 to see Blink -182 the night before the SAT? That's 00:07:53.050 --> 00:07:54.949 not a direct example for my own life at all, 00:07:55.009 --> 00:07:57.649 I promise you. It was a hell of a show. Who needs 00:07:57.649 --> 00:07:59.689 sleep? There's the old line, like if at first 00:07:59.689 --> 00:08:02.670 you don't succeed, try, try again. I think that's 00:08:02.670 --> 00:08:05.170 wrong. I think that plays into that superhero 00:08:05.170 --> 00:08:08.529 mindset. Next time, Batman's just going to try 00:08:08.529 --> 00:08:10.670 harder. Next time, the Flash is going to run 00:08:10.670 --> 00:08:13.629 faster. No, no. Let's quote a different superhero, 00:08:14.189 --> 00:08:17.069 Miss Frizzle. You remember Miss Frizzle? Miss 00:08:17.069 --> 00:08:18.769 Frizzle said, if at first you don't succeed, 00:08:19.050 --> 00:08:23.689 find out why. And that puts 00:08:23.689 --> 00:08:28.310 us in a lifelong growth mindset of my first attempt 00:08:28.310 --> 00:08:31.660 at this thing was an opportunity to learn. And 00:08:31.660 --> 00:08:34.259 I screwed it up because very few people succeed 00:08:34.259 --> 00:08:37.700 at something first. Like you don't just accidentally 00:08:37.700 --> 00:08:40.440 drape the perfect dress. You don't accidentally 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:44.879 open the perfect pastry shop in Soho. Like it 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:50.139 takes time and effort and iteration. But we as 00:08:50.139 --> 00:08:53.259 a society, broadly speaking, we don't celebrate 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:56.559 grit. And certainly when it comes to gifted kids 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.519 who we expect to just be great at stuff. we've 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:02.419 sort of boxed them in from both sides. No, I 00:09:02.419 --> 00:09:04.039 love that. And of course, when we think about 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:06.759 just trying to figure out the root of our failures, 00:09:06.899 --> 00:09:10.039 it leads us to think again, how can we reshape 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:12.679 our classrooms to include flexibility for students 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.120 to explore where their failures can come from 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:19.360 and how they can be corrected? So one of the 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:24.820 things I really like to do, and I can't take 00:09:24.820 --> 00:09:27.759 full credit for this because This was a teacher 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:29.480 in Mississippi that I got to work with a couple 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:31.779 of years ago. I was talking about how one of 00:09:31.779 --> 00:09:33.460 the things that stresses our kids out is if you 00:09:33.460 --> 00:09:35.480 think about doing schoolwork as climbing a ladder, 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.899 when we climb a ladder, we get anxious. We look 00:09:37.899 --> 00:09:40.139 straight ahead. We look at the horizon. So we 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:42.399 don't sense any change occurring because our 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.620 focal point is too far away. That stresses our 00:09:45.620 --> 00:09:46.820 bodies out because our bodies are like, I'm working 00:09:46.820 --> 00:09:48.580 so hard. I'm working so hard. Nothing's happening. 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:51.600 If you go for a run, you're like, okay, well, 00:09:51.659 --> 00:09:53.679 I was in Midtown and now I'm in Central Park. 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:55.779 And soon enough, I'll be up to Columbia. I'm 00:09:55.779 --> 00:09:58.039 going to loop around Columbia and head south 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:01.340 on the FDR, right? You're seeing change. So your 00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:03.259 body's saying effort equals change, which is 00:10:03.259 --> 00:10:06.220 good. But if you're running on a treadmill, right? 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:08.919 It's like you have to remind yourself that things 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:10.399 are changing because otherwise your body just 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:12.700 gets stressed out. So I said, so if you think 00:10:12.700 --> 00:10:15.500 about that ladder, you want to look up to see 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:17.940 how far you have left to go. Or you want to look 00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:21.240 down to see how far you've come, right? And that's 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:24.080 changing your mindset, your orientation to the 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.740 thing you're doing. So this teacher in Mississippi 00:10:26.740 --> 00:10:28.500 raises his hand. I'm like, yes, sir. He's like, 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:32.620 so what you're telling me is that I should take 00:10:32.620 --> 00:10:35.460 a ladder and hang it on my classroom wall so 00:10:35.460 --> 00:10:38.120 the children can see basically where they would 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:40.200 stand on the ladder. And I was like, well, I 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:42.840 mean, you could. I don't want you to get in trouble, 00:10:42.980 --> 00:10:44.940 boss. Like, do what you're going to do. Three 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:47.169 days later, I got an email from him. He had gone 00:10:47.169 --> 00:10:49.169 to Home Depot. He bought a ladder. He bought 00:10:49.169 --> 00:10:51.649 two hooks, drilled them into the wall, hung the 00:10:51.649 --> 00:10:53.990 ladder. And like every six months or so, he sends 00:10:53.990 --> 00:10:55.610 me the email. And there's just all these little 00:10:55.610 --> 00:10:58.990 post -it notes on this ladder that hangs in his 00:10:58.990 --> 00:11:04.450 classroom. So the idea here is that when a kid 00:11:04.450 --> 00:11:10.070 gets a grade, they get a 94. Most of the phrasing 00:11:10.070 --> 00:11:12.889 around that is, you got a 94, that's good. That's 00:11:12.889 --> 00:11:16.360 it, the end, we're done. Some kids see that as 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:19.399 what we call top -down thinking, which is I wanted 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:22.580 100, I got two wrong, therefore the 94 is bad. 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.879 It's a disappointment. What I try and help my 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:28.100 clients do is invert that thinking and do what 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:31.480 we call bottom -up thinking. I knew 94 % of this 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:33.919 thing. That's pretty damn good, don't you think? 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.879 Right? I mean, Dr. Joey, could you name 94 % 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:42.220 of anything? Nope. Nope. Me neither. We're two 00:11:42.220 --> 00:11:45.659 very smart humans. And that's the thing. Like 00:11:45.659 --> 00:11:48.779 we want to give ourselves credit for what we're 00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:52.259 doing and what we have done because we're all 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:55.759 works in progress. You gotta start somewhere. 00:11:55.940 --> 00:11:58.659 Your first standup routine is going to suck. 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.539 Your first suit is going to suck. Your first 00:12:01.539 --> 00:12:05.120 date is going to suck. It's just like, it's a 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:08.980 necessary step in the growth process. And the 00:12:08.980 --> 00:12:15.299 way we've built the education system is it slam 00:12:15.299 --> 00:12:17.500 dunks on these kids for not being perfect immediately. 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:19.940 But then we wonder why kids give up and burn 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:23.200 out. It tells them the only way to fix this is 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:25.480 to work harder. And by the way, there's something 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:27.039 fundamentally wrong with you that you haven't 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.519 gotten it already. You know, the old line, like 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.080 if a child continues not to learn in the way 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.399 we teach him, maybe the child isn't the slow 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:38.159 learners. Maybe we are. How many educators know 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:41.000 that fundamentally in their hearts, but are in 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.100 systems that don't allow them to change and thus 00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:45.860 meet the needs of these kids? Getting back to 00:12:45.860 --> 00:12:50.220 that flexible pedagogy. Wow, that gets me thinking 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:52.720 quite a bit because that really does buy into 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:57.200 the superhero narrative of the child. And there's 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:58.700 so many things that are going on in education 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:01.440 where teachers are leaving in drones because 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:04.220 they're burnt out. Students don't really have 00:13:04.220 --> 00:13:06.220 a choice until high school where they can drop 00:13:06.220 --> 00:13:08.799 out. They're kind of captive there and they can't 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:10.659 just throw up their hands one day and say, I'm 00:13:10.659 --> 00:13:12.700 done. I want a new career. I mean, being a student 00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:15.419 is their full -time career for the majority of 00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:17.679 their lives. So what skills can they need to 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:22.659 help them move forward from that and grow? So 00:13:22.659 --> 00:13:27.360 one of the biggest predictors of developing resiliency 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:32.879 in a kid is the concept of adherence. Now, adherence 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:35.340 is a thing that I feel like a lot of good teachers 00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:41.039 and parents do instinctively. But kids want to 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.860 know why. They want to know the context. They 00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:47.480 want to know where this is going. We've all heard 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.779 the cliche like, is this going to be on the test? 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.299 But that's seeking adherence. That's seeking, 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:55.139 do I need to know this thing? Where is this going? 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.879 And when you can say to a kid, or really anybody, 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:02.620 this is why we're doing this. This is why it 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.220 matters. This is what it's going to mean. You 00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:08.019 lower their anxiety, which increases their engagement. 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:11.039 When they're more engaged, they do better. They 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:12.919 learn it faster. They move on to the things that 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:16.580 matter. And I think that there's so much education 00:14:16.580 --> 00:14:19.779 is delivered top down. Like, this is what you're 00:14:19.779 --> 00:14:21.080 going to do. We are going to learn the state 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:23.159 capitals. We're going to learn the periodic table. 00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:26.000 And no, you don't get a say in it. And if you 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.480 question that, you're being disrespectful and 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.259 sending me to the principal's office. The public 00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:35.419 education system is increasingly about compliance 00:14:35.419 --> 00:14:41.539 rather than creativity or creation or engagement. 00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:44.980 It's can you learn those state capitals? Then 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:47.720 we've all done our jobs. But if you've got a 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:49.240 kid in your classroom who's like, well, why is 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.919 the state capital of Florida, Tallahassee? Right. 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.620 Right. Why not Orlando? Why not Miami? Why not 00:14:54.620 --> 00:15:00.309 Boca? It should be Boca. And those are great 00:15:00.309 --> 00:15:04.350 questions, right? We want kids who ask questions. 00:15:04.590 --> 00:15:11.169 So we are, as educators, we are constantly at 00:15:11.169 --> 00:15:16.230 war between the very real limitations of this 00:15:16.230 --> 00:15:21.629 system and the inherent curiosity and capability 00:15:21.629 --> 00:15:25.840 and potential of our students. But some districts 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.659 and administrators and teachers make that harder 00:15:28.659 --> 00:15:32.399 than it needs to be, right? And the best teachers, 00:15:32.460 --> 00:15:34.480 the best administrators, the best school districts 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:37.659 embrace the challenge of that because when a 00:15:37.659 --> 00:15:41.840 kid asks why, they're not being defiant. They're 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.860 trying to engage with you. And if you can tell 00:15:44.860 --> 00:15:47.759 me why this matters, then you'll get me forever. 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:51.200 But you've got to be humble and flexible enough 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:53.759 as the educator, as the adult in the room. to 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.539 meet that question rather than like, so your 00:15:56.539 --> 00:15:58.659 shackles up and be like, oh no, you're just a 00:15:58.659 --> 00:16:01.240 bad kid. Kids these days and other such some 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:05.179 nonsense. Yeah, I love having that idea of really 00:16:05.179 --> 00:16:07.700 trying to bring up that why question for students 00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:10.460 because it leads me to another point. When you're 00:16:10.460 --> 00:16:12.659 working with the brain that is neurodivergent 00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:16.159 but still not fully developed in age, how can 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.340 you still get those children to think about 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.559 things that really can be applicable to them 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:27.860 through the curriculum? I think it gets to this 00:16:27.860 --> 00:16:30.480 existential question of what education is for. 00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:36.720 Right. And I tell people all the time. The old 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:43.620 way of work is dying, if not dead. Right. It 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:46.639 is not when our parents were becoming adults. 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:50.139 You could know a thing, get a job and do that 00:16:50.139 --> 00:16:52.759 thing for 40 years, get the gold watch, move 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:57.179 on with your life, right? Now, more people have 00:16:57.179 --> 00:16:59.840 more access to more information than any point 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.940 in human history. So it is no longer enough to 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:05.940 just know the thing. Now you have to know the 00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:08.900 thing and be able to do something with it. And 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:13.660 that's a fundamentally different thing. I personally, 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:15.660 and I'll admit my bias here, I think there is 00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:18.559 a place for trauma -informed education because 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.019 the one thing that basically all 8 .3 billion 00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:24.299 of us on this planet have in common is that bad 00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:27.220 shit has happened to us. Now, it doesn't all 00:17:27.220 --> 00:17:30.359 rise to the level of Parkland or Florida State, 00:17:30.460 --> 00:17:32.940 and I could keep naming school shootings, but 00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:36.319 that would make me very sad, right? But just 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:38.359 as an interesting frame of reference, Joey, right? 00:17:38.539 --> 00:17:41.799 I was a senior in high school. And my second 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:43.299 day of my senior year of high school was 9 -11. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.500 I'm from New Jersey. So we can see Manhattan 00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.519 skyline from our town. Like most of my friends 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:51.799 had parents who worked in the city, several of 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:55.180 whom worked in the towers, right? So it was not 00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:58.339 directly as traumatic, right? As Parkland was, 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.359 but certainly the, and I'm feeling like the chills 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.660 come over my body as I tell the story at 24 years 00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:07.259 later, right? There's still a trauma response 00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:12.460 there, but. we as humans our brains are so wired 00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:15.319 to protect us that they're like that doesn't 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:17.559 have anything to do with me so therefore I don't 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:19.819 want to hear it so i'm just not gonna hear it 00:18:19.819 --> 00:18:25.240 exactly but the reason and there's such an art 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:29.200 to this the reason we share the stories the reason 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.900 that like Night matters that Number The Stars 00:18:31.900 --> 00:18:37.519 matters that Hotel Rowanda matters is because 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:43.960 as humans we are so much closer to being in mortal 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:50.660 peril than we think and we do not want to scare 00:18:50.660 --> 00:18:52.119 our children we don't want our kids living in 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.839 fear but we want to be honest and open with them 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:00.839 about, there are monsters under the bed sometimes 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.400 right there are dragons and if you're going to 00:19:05.600 --> 00:19:08.819 truly prepare kids for the world they're entering 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:13.859 into 2025 2026 we cannot prepare them for 2007 00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:17.539 it's over it's gone it's not coming back that 00:19:17.539 --> 00:19:20.059 world is I mean that world's like the model T- 00:19:20.059 --> 00:19:22.680 Ford compared to what we have now right like 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:27.380 it's expanding and evolving so fast that we are 00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:29.660 rapidly trying to build systems that can keep 00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:31.779 up with a world that we were not prepared for 00:19:34.410 --> 00:19:38.549 And I think the best teachers I know are the 00:19:38.549 --> 00:19:40.769 ones who acknowledge the intellectual humility 00:19:40.769 --> 00:19:43.390 there. That's like, I don't know what you need, 00:19:43.569 --> 00:19:46.029 but I know what you don't need is what we were 00:19:46.029 --> 00:19:49.910 doing 30 years ago, right? Dr. Jen always says, 00:19:50.009 --> 00:19:52.269 why do we have kids with smartphones and we're 00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:55.210 teaching them like the old school giant supercomputers 00:19:55.210 --> 00:19:57.730 in the basement of Bell Labs in New Jersey, right? 00:19:57.809 --> 00:20:01.130 Like we cannot keep teaching kids Linux when 00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:03.930 they're coding on their phones in real time. 00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:07.069 Right. Or teach them on the four function calculator 00:20:07.069 --> 00:20:09.329 when the scientific calculator and AI is there 00:20:09.329 --> 00:20:12.990 for us as well. It's wild. But there are so many 00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:15.710 teachers out there who are so convinced of the 00:20:15.710 --> 00:20:18.569 old ways that they don't embrace the new ways 00:20:18.569 --> 00:20:21.170 to put. They put kids in this weird dichotomy 00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:25.549 of what's really hurry up and wait. Right. Like 00:20:25.549 --> 00:20:27.869 do these things, but you can't do them yet. The 00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:31.250 best way to honor our children and their journeys 00:20:31.250 --> 00:20:34.809 is to be honest with them. Yes. That doesn't 00:20:34.809 --> 00:20:38.529 mean you describe the death in detail. It doesn't 00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:41.670 mean you say, "and there are 75 sexual predators 00:20:41.670 --> 00:20:45.269 within a mile of our school!" Like too much information 00:20:45.269 --> 00:20:50.150 becomes navel gazing. But our kids deserve treated 00:20:50.150 --> 00:20:54.009 like they matter, like they have agency. And 00:20:54.009 --> 00:20:58.059 if you're going to err on one side of that. I'm 00:20:58.059 --> 00:21:00.160 always going to have you err on the side of being 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:02.440 honest with kids. And then we will put that in 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:05.099 context together rather than pretending that 00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:07.960 everything is just hunky dory. Definitely. And 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:10.059 I think that students deserve to just know the 00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:12.779 facts. Yeah. Just understand the facts, just 00:21:12.779 --> 00:21:15.119 send truth in what's going on in their worlds. 00:21:15.259 --> 00:21:17.680 And you're making me think about, so for the 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:20.819 teachers who do embrace the old ways, and if 00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:22.960 you ask, "why does it matter?" The answer is "because," 00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:26.339 right? "Why? Because". How can those types of educators 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:32.539 also be convinced of the embracing of flexible 00:21:32.539 --> 00:21:35.440 pedagogy in the way that fits the vision that 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.799 you're speaking about while also enabling student 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:42.759 success? I think that it's messier to give kids 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:46.900 choice. It's messier to give kids agency. And 00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:48.940 teachers are like, well, I don't want to do more 00:21:48.940 --> 00:21:51.940 work. I'm like, you don't want to do more work 00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:54.619 in the long term. And yes, this is a little bit 00:21:54.619 --> 00:21:57.240 more work in the short term, but it's absolutely 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.440 less work in the long term. And that's the sort 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.339 of thing, like you've got to really trust the 00:22:03.339 --> 00:22:10.059 process there. And any revolution creates friction, 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.220 right? Because we've been doing it this way for 00:22:12.220 --> 00:22:15.339 a long time. And there are a lot of power structures 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:18.339 in place that are designed to maintain the status 00:22:18.339 --> 00:22:21.920 quo. But look around us, man. Is the status quo 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:29.190 working? So all we can do is push the envelope. 00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:35.069 And if we believe in our talents and our drive 00:22:35.069 --> 00:22:37.769 and the information available to us, we know 00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:40.109 we will get good outcomes. They may look different, 00:22:40.210 --> 00:22:42.210 but they'll be better for our kids in the long 00:22:42.210 --> 00:22:45.730 run. And I truly believe that. So what are some 00:22:45.730 --> 00:22:47.890 ways that we can push the envelope on the status 00:22:47.890 --> 00:22:51.509 quo in a way that supports and enables people 00:22:51.509 --> 00:22:56.029 in education? One of my favorite structures for 00:22:56.029 --> 00:22:58.369 this is what we call interest -based learning 00:22:58.369 --> 00:23:03.390 or IBL. So I've got a kid I work with who is 00:23:03.390 --> 00:23:05.329 really struggling in math. He's just not a math 00:23:05.329 --> 00:23:07.549 kid, but he's a really high level baseball player. 00:23:08.289 --> 00:23:11.710 So when baseball season was ramping up, I said, 00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:13.569 I told the coach, because he's like one of those 00:23:13.569 --> 00:23:16.170 kids, he's like on the varsity team as a freshman. 00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:17.789 He's like very good, but he doesn't play very 00:23:17.789 --> 00:23:20.950 much. So I told the coach, I was like, when he's 00:23:20.950 --> 00:23:23.299 sitting with varsity. Have him keep the scorebook. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:26.720 Have him track, like, who's up? Did they get 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.019 a hit? Have him track balls and strikes, right? 00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:33.039 What this kid is doing is he's getting a lot 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.559 of exposure to math through the lens of a thing 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.380 he's very competent with, very thoughtful. And 00:23:39.380 --> 00:23:41.740 this kid is now, he's like, well, I figured I 00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:43.319 had to calculate slugging percentage. So I figured 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:45.519 I would do that. And I figured I would calculate 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.900 win rate on when we do pitch outs. So I'm doing 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:50.559 that. I'm like. buddy, I just want to let you 00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:52.319 know, I didn't ask you to do that. He's like, 00:23:52.339 --> 00:23:54.140 well, no, it's interesting. I'm like, it's all 00:23:54.140 --> 00:23:59.000 so fast. Yes. And just you're teaching that business 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:02.859 communication class right now. Now, I'm guessing 00:24:02.859 --> 00:24:05.019 at the Fashion Institute of New York, most people 00:24:05.019 --> 00:24:07.579 are going, why would I need that class? That's 00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:11.240 weird. I'm here to design things. But you can 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.960 connect that if you have a product and you have 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:18.390 a meeting with coach or product. or don't ask 00:24:18.390 --> 00:24:20.069 me the name anymore, designers, I really don't 00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:24.390 know them. You've got to be able to speak P &Ls. 00:24:24.390 --> 00:24:27.730 You've got to be able to speak operation costs. 00:24:28.069 --> 00:24:30.869 And if you can't do that, you're not going to 00:24:30.869 --> 00:24:35.829 get that gig. I didn't love Tim and Heidi's fashion 00:24:35.829 --> 00:24:38.950 show on Amazon Prime, but the thing I did appreciate 00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:40.809 about it was they really leaned more into the 00:24:40.809 --> 00:24:43.349 business side of it and having them have those 00:24:43.349 --> 00:24:47.029 pitches. I make my clothes in this way so the 00:24:47.029 --> 00:24:49.970 operation cost is here so we can sell them at 00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:53.329 this so we can make this much profit. Yes. And 00:24:53.329 --> 00:24:56.609 that's the thing. I might hate capitalism, but 00:24:56.609 --> 00:24:59.470 it's the sandbox in which we live, so we must 00:24:59.470 --> 00:25:02.809 play within it, right? So you're giving people 00:25:02.809 --> 00:25:05.250 skills that are practical, but if you came in 00:25:05.250 --> 00:25:06.549 there, you're like, no, you're going to learn 00:25:06.549 --> 00:25:08.490 business communication. Shut up. Don't ask any 00:25:08.490 --> 00:25:10.829 questions. You're going to lose that whole classroom. 00:25:11.309 --> 00:25:13.430 But by tying it into the things they're already 00:25:13.430 --> 00:25:15.309 interested in, the things are already there to 00:25:15.309 --> 00:25:18.950 learn. Worst case scenario, they see why it matters. 00:25:19.210 --> 00:25:21.390 Best case scenario, they get super interested 00:25:21.390 --> 00:25:25.190 in it. And as educators, I mean, none of us got 00:25:25.190 --> 00:25:27.450 into this work. We sure as hell didn't get into 00:25:27.450 --> 00:25:29.410 it for the money, but none of us got into this 00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:32.250 work to like tune kids out and make kids bored 00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:34.789 and disengaged. We want them to give a shit. 00:25:35.670 --> 00:25:37.690 Interest -based learning is a way to ensure that 00:25:37.690 --> 00:25:41.720 kids give a shit. So I'll give away one of my 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:43.980 little ingredients here to my secret sauce. So 00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:46.140 free learning for those who are tuning in here. 00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:48.339 One of the things that I've learned and have 00:25:48.339 --> 00:25:50.480 actually written extensively about in my research 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.339 is that a way to keep kids interested is really 00:25:54.339 --> 00:25:57.140 by, as you said, Matt, welcoming that flexible 00:25:57.140 --> 00:26:00.119 pedagogy. And one of the things that I do, which, 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:02.619 of course, at the college level, I have significantly 00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:06.160 more ability. to make that happen than when I 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.480 was teaching in K -12. You more than likely will 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.559 tell a student yes with what they want to do. 00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:15.400 In my literature class right now, my students 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:19.519 are working to pull a theme that they find from 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:21.400 the books that we've read. Just one theme. It's 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.559 called their patterns paper. Do they want to 00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:26.279 do this book and connect it here? Yes. Do you 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:28.839 want to do it multimodally? Yes. Do you want 00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:30.920 to connect it to another text that you've read 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:33.890 that we have never seen before? Absolutely. Do 00:26:33.890 --> 00:26:35.710 you want to draw a portrait and analyze a painting 00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:38.569 about what you see? Yes. Whatever they want to 00:26:38.569 --> 00:26:41.650 do, however they want to express, I'm not here 00:26:41.650 --> 00:26:44.349 to check boxes. I'm here for them as I tell them 00:26:44.349 --> 00:26:47.869 to maximize what learning you want to take from 00:26:47.869 --> 00:26:49.750 my course. And I've said this in other podcasts 00:26:49.750 --> 00:26:52.910 as well. If I'm sitting there because I feel 00:26:52.910 --> 00:26:55.970 like students need to succeed for me, I've failed 00:26:55.970 --> 00:26:59.029 my own course. If I'm there because I want students 00:26:59.029 --> 00:27:01.470 to succeed for themselves and what they want 00:27:01.470 --> 00:27:07.190 to gain, Now we've all passed the class. I mean, 00:27:07.210 --> 00:27:10.910 that's, I mean, that, that if every educator 00:27:10.910 --> 00:27:13.109 in America could hear this, we would be in a 00:27:13.109 --> 00:27:15.990 better system because it's not about us, right? 00:27:16.309 --> 00:27:18.609 It's not about checking boxes. It's about our 00:27:18.609 --> 00:27:21.750 kids. And sometimes the best you can do in that 00:27:21.750 --> 00:27:23.789 is like, yeah, I know you don't want to take 00:27:23.789 --> 00:27:26.210 business of fashion 107. I know you don't. I 00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:28.609 know you don't care about it, but it's part of 00:27:28.609 --> 00:27:30.630 the program. Here's how we help you get through 00:27:30.630 --> 00:27:33.170 it with the least sturm and drang. We move on 00:27:33.170 --> 00:27:35.390 with our lives, right? Let's get back into buttons 00:27:35.390 --> 00:27:38.509 203 because who knows the buttons, right? The 00:27:38.509 --> 00:27:40.970 whole thing, right? But like, that's the thing. 00:27:41.329 --> 00:27:44.150 I think a lot of educators default to this. It'll 00:27:44.150 --> 00:27:47.789 get better in college. So therefore high school 00:27:47.789 --> 00:27:51.930 sucking doesn't matter as much. I can tell kids 00:27:51.930 --> 00:27:53.890 like, listen, it will get better in college, 00:27:53.910 --> 00:27:57.480 but I also want it to suck less right now. Right. 00:27:57.559 --> 00:27:59.460 And if high school is as bad as it is, they're 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:01.119 not going to want to go to college. And unfortunately, 00:28:01.299 --> 00:28:03.359 those are the students, because I also teach, 00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:06.579 I call it freshman 101 every fall, Monday morning, 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:09.400 9 a .m. Those are the students where if they 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:12.579 had a really poor high school experience, I can, 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.140 but I'm not a superhero. I can try and turn it 00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:18.640 around. I may not always succeed. And if I cannot 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.839 be somebody who quickly turns that around within 00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:23.859 the first opening weeks, I will lose them very 00:28:23.859 --> 00:28:26.140 quickly and they will not continue with college. 00:28:27.739 --> 00:28:31.799 you know I mean it this sounds melodramatic but 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:34.380 the stakes are that high they really are you 00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:38.960 know it kids need to love learning and I don't 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.700 even care what they learn right if a kid wants 00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:45.819 to you know explore slam poetry from Uzbekistan 00:28:45.819 --> 00:28:49.339 then go with god my child right like if a kid 00:28:49.339 --> 00:28:53.670 wants to learn about the Mayan empire or the 00:28:53.670 --> 00:28:56.789 history of smelting. I mean, there are ways to 00:28:56.789 --> 00:28:59.750 do that. And there are ways to frame it within 00:28:59.750 --> 00:29:02.410 a traditional pedagogy that we're connecting 00:29:02.410 --> 00:29:04.630 what we need them to know to what they want to 00:29:04.630 --> 00:29:10.650 know. But any human facing endeavor, whether 00:29:10.650 --> 00:29:14.589 that's teaching, therapy, a podcast, bartending, 00:29:14.789 --> 00:29:18.990 doing a play, making an outfit, it's an inherently 00:29:18.990 --> 00:29:22.660 transactional thing. But if it's transactional, 00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:25.799 then both sides have to matter, right? If Christian 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.119 Seriano only makes dresses for size zeros, he 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:30.880 will sell a lot of dresses to size zeros, but 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.119 he won't sell dresses to anybody else. And what 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:36.880 percentage of the earth is bigger than a size 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:41.599 zero? Most of it, right? So that's the thing. 00:29:41.619 --> 00:29:45.599 Like, it's never been one size fits all. And 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.480 it's increasingly less one size fits all today. 00:29:50.380 --> 00:29:54.299 All we can do is embrace that. I had to chuckle 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:55.960 because when you talk about one size fits all, 00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:58.599 I'm going to sound really melodramatic in saying 00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:00.839 that this was like the lowest point of my entire 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.460 teaching career, but it really was. And maybe 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:08.180 it was still, okay, September. So the fall of 00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:10.359 my first year of teaching, again, it was calendar 00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:12.200 year, so I started in spring, then went to fall, 00:30:12.259 --> 00:30:14.980 but the fall was significantly worse. In September, 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.259 we had to assign. in eighth grade so again we're 00:30:18.259 --> 00:30:21.259 following the state standards of Florida some 00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:24.160 essay and of course they chose an awful topic 00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:26.059 because they wanted it to match the state exam 00:30:26.059 --> 00:30:28.000 something horrible that nobody would care about 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:32.059 I had to read 200 essays in one week and grade 00:30:32.059 --> 00:30:35.559 all the mechanics all the arguments about volcanoes 00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:41.150 oh 208 essays on volcanoes I was so miserable. 00:30:41.250 --> 00:30:43.789 And again, that was when I felt like I was at 00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:46.549 the lowest point in my career. Like, wow, I just 00:30:46.549 --> 00:30:48.970 got a Master's degree in Creative Writing last 00:30:48.970 --> 00:30:52.309 year. To read these essays on volcanoes, I couldn't 00:30:52.309 --> 00:30:54.250 believe it. And I'm pretty sure that was just 00:30:54.250 --> 00:30:55.769 around the same time where my chair was like, 00:30:55.809 --> 00:30:57.690 yeah, you're not a good fit for this. Okay, perfectly 00:30:57.690 --> 00:31:01.410 fine. What enables me to think beyond that one 00:31:01.410 --> 00:31:04.430 size fits all is now if a student says, I want 00:31:04.430 --> 00:31:05.849 to write about fashion, I want to write about 00:31:05.849 --> 00:31:07.710 stories, I want to write about mental health, 00:31:07.769 --> 00:31:09.109 I want to write about health care. I'm like, 00:31:09.210 --> 00:31:12.450 you write about whatever you want to write about. 00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:15.569 And again, when I read their work, maybe the 00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:18.309 mechanics aren't fantastic. And maybe it's not 00:31:18.309 --> 00:31:22.099 exactly what my rubric. wanted them to do. But 00:31:22.099 --> 00:31:25.039 if I see that there is genuine passion, there 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.180 is authenticity, I've gotten significantly better 00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.200 now between seeing if AI has written something 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.440 or not, I look for the language. And if I can 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:33.660 see that they genuinely went out of their way 00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:37.519 to produce what they saw themselves as the best 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.579 work possible on healthcare, right? And giving 00:31:41.579 --> 00:31:44.099 me something that is so original and special 00:31:44.099 --> 00:31:48.039 to them, again, now we've all passed the course. 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.259 If I tell them you need to all write about volcanoes 00:31:51.259 --> 00:31:54.140 and I will be reading 30 essays this week on 00:31:54.140 --> 00:31:56.559 volcanoes. Now I have failed them as their teacher. 00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:02.140 So at the K -12 level where you're kind of in 00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:04.579 handcuffs, what are some skills that teachers 00:32:04.579 --> 00:32:06.980 can borrow to help their students move forward? 00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:14.920 You can, if you are stuck in what you have to 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:18.750 teach. You have flexibility in how you teach 00:32:18.750 --> 00:32:21.829 it and how you assess it. Right. If volcanoes 00:32:21.829 --> 00:32:27.710 aren't your thing, then can you have a volcanologist 00:32:27.710 --> 00:32:32.730 Skype into your classroom? Right. Can you talk 00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:35.029 about making different kinds of volcanoes? Right. 00:32:35.089 --> 00:32:38.170 Like, can we watch the movie Dante's Peak? It's 00:32:38.170 --> 00:32:41.150 a classic. Right. And then as we assess on the 00:32:41.150 --> 00:32:43.500 other side of it. Some kids are good writers. 00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.099 Some kids are good test takers. Some kids want 00:32:46.099 --> 00:32:48.299 to make a project. Some kids want to do a presentation. 00:32:48.859 --> 00:32:52.599 If you give kids four options for assessment, 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:57.180 right? Test, paper, project, presentation. Then 00:32:57.180 --> 00:32:59.440 once again, you're making a little bit more work 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.799 for yourself up front. You're making a lot less 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:04.119 work down the line because then you're gonna 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:06.940 have to do fewer retests. You're gonna have to 00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:11.119 do fewer papers to grade. You know, you can hold 00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:14.640 kids to a very high content standard, but the 00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:17.779 content doesn't have to look the same. In fact, 00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:20.099 research shows pretty clearly that when content 00:33:20.099 --> 00:33:23.200 doesn't look the same, the outcomes are better. 00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:27.140 Because, you know, some kids are happily going 00:33:27.140 --> 00:33:29.920 to take a 25 question chapter test and move on 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.079 with their lives. Some kids are going to show 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.720 what they know a lot better through writing a 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.599 four page paper on it. And if we want our kids 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:42.240 to succeed. then putting them in avenues to be 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:46.119 successful is the best way forward for the kids, 00:33:46.220 --> 00:33:48.819 but also for ourselves. It's going to decrease 00:33:48.819 --> 00:33:51.599 teacher burnout. If you don't have to read 208 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.279 essays on volcanoes, if that was 58 papers on 00:33:55.279 --> 00:34:00.359 volcanoes, 80 tests on volcanoes, 30 projects 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:04.039 and whatever the number left presentations, once 00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:06.000 again, yes, it's a little bit more work for you. 00:34:06.650 --> 00:34:08.570 But I think it's also you're working smarter, 00:34:08.630 --> 00:34:11.389 not harder. So I think the cost on you is a lot 00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:15.550 less. Definitely. And again, another point to 00:34:15.550 --> 00:34:17.449 my secret sauce that I always tell my students 00:34:17.449 --> 00:34:20.710 is that our classes work on flexibility and choice. 00:34:20.909 --> 00:34:23.610 I am flexible to let my students choose. Again, 00:34:23.630 --> 00:34:25.869 I'm at the college level. So disclaimer from 00:34:25.869 --> 00:34:28.349 the professor, there is flexibility and choice 00:34:28.349 --> 00:34:30.449 with how they want to succeed the outcomes for 00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:33.130 the class. And even if they present a project, 00:34:33.230 --> 00:34:38.650 that's good. interesting. If it's factual and 00:34:38.650 --> 00:34:40.590 they see that they cared about it to try their 00:34:40.590 --> 00:34:43.630 best, I will give them a very strong grade to 00:34:43.630 --> 00:34:46.590 represent my appreciation for the good knowledge 00:34:46.590 --> 00:34:48.449 that they have gained in working towards their 00:34:48.449 --> 00:34:51.989 outcomes. And so, Matt, as we come to the end 00:34:51.989 --> 00:34:53.789 of our conversation, I wanted to ask a few couple 00:34:53.789 --> 00:34:56.170 things in terms of, can you tell us a little 00:34:56.170 --> 00:34:59.230 bit more about the NDC or the Neurodiversity 00:34:59.230 --> 00:35:01.829 Collective and where our listeners may be able 00:35:01.829 --> 00:35:05.090 to reach out to you further? Yeah. So my primary 00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:08.170 job is a full -time clinical psychologist and 00:35:08.170 --> 00:35:12.090 we are a neurodiversity affirming practice and 00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:15.369 a neurodiversity centric practice. So all of 00:35:15.369 --> 00:35:18.210 our providers are various flavors of neurodivergent. 00:35:18.409 --> 00:35:21.530 And so we really live this, right? And our practice 00:35:21.530 --> 00:35:23.829 is entirely virtual. We've built it to be very 00:35:23.829 --> 00:35:26.309 flexible. We try to be as much of a one -stop 00:35:26.309 --> 00:35:29.969 shop as we can be. So when we do everything from 00:35:29.969 --> 00:35:33.869 consultations to IQ testing to Family therapy, 00:35:34.010 --> 00:35:36.269 group therapy, individual therapy, that's sort 00:35:36.269 --> 00:35:42.550 of foundational to what I do. And where can our 00:35:42.550 --> 00:35:46.530 listeners get to know more about you? So I am 00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:49.170 chronically online. We have our own podcast, 00:35:49.469 --> 00:35:52.510 Nerding Out on Neurodiversity. That's fun. My 00:35:52.510 --> 00:35:54.409 other full -time job is I'm a professional speaker. 00:35:55.010 --> 00:35:57.269 So if the stuff we've talked about today makes 00:35:57.269 --> 00:35:59.780 sense for your organization. then you can reach 00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:02.579 out to me at https://www.drmattzakreski.com/ and try and keep 00:36:02.579 --> 00:36:05.599 those two businesses separate because now I've 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.219 got people who work under me. If I say something 00:36:07.219 --> 00:36:09.820 stupid at a school in Dayton, I don't want it 00:36:09.820 --> 00:36:14.679 to affect my team. So I positioned my professional 00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:16.780 roles as something that can be flexible to both 00:36:16.780 --> 00:36:19.760 of those spaces. Thank you so much for that. 00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.699 And one last question. Is there any final points 00:36:22.699 --> 00:36:24.500 that you, or points that you wanted to share 00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:26.019 with our listeners for today that we haven't 00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:31.159 talked on? I mean, One of the foundational choices 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:35.659 that we can make, right, is where and how we 00:36:35.659 --> 00:36:39.820 are being educated. So if there's something that 00:36:39.820 --> 00:36:45.800 the COVID years taught us is that homeschool 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:51.559 and online school and unschool, a lot of people 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.800 never went back. A lot of people were like, oh 00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:55.500 my gosh, this model makes so much more sense 00:36:55.500 --> 00:36:58.440 for my life, for my kid, for how I learn. how 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.119 I want to learn. I have a kid who started doing 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.619 apprenticeship stuff instead of going to college 00:37:03.619 --> 00:37:06.539 and now he's a plumber and he's great at it. 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:08.500 This was a kid who would have gone to four years 00:37:08.500 --> 00:37:11.420 of college, entered into $150 ,000 of debt to 00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:15.260 probably end up being a plumber, right? So the 00:37:15.260 --> 00:37:17.940 idea is we always say that if the flower's not 00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:19.940 blooming, we don't blame the flower, we change 00:37:19.940 --> 00:37:23.019 the greenhouse. If you feel like the environment 00:37:23.019 --> 00:37:25.539 you're in isn't serving you for whatever reason, 00:37:26.030 --> 00:37:28.230 Try as best you can to change that environment. 00:37:28.809 --> 00:37:31.010 but give yourself permission to find a new greenhouse 00:37:31.010 --> 00:37:33.130 because that might actually be what you really 00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:35.849 need so matt thank you so much again for really 00:37:35.849 --> 00:37:38.309 reminding us that our differences are not deficiencies 00:37:38.309 --> 00:37:41.530 and that including all different kinds of thinkers 00:37:41.530 --> 00:37:44.409 happens when we allow students to be seen supported 00:37:44.409 --> 00:37:47.630 and celebrated as they are through our own flexible 00:37:47.630 --> 00:37:50.429 means and whether you are an educator a parent 00:37:50.429 --> 00:37:53.030 or somebody who's just trying to be more inclusive 00:37:53.030 --> 00:37:55.190 in your daily life just remember that Matt's 00:37:55.190 --> 00:37:57.989 message is simple that your brain is not a problem 00:37:58.219 --> 00:38:01.179 solve but rather it's a story to understand so 00:38:01.179 --> 00:38:03.760 until next time thanks for being here and let 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:07.059 your flowers keep on blooming thank you for joining 00:38:07.059 --> 00:38:09.500 us on the classroom narratives healing and education 00:38:09.500 --> 00:38:12.739 podcast if today's episode inspired you or made 00:38:12.739 --> 00:38:14.860 you think differently i'd love to hear from you 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.599 drop a comment or review wherever you listen 00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:20.400 to podcasts and stay connected with us on the 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.780 at classroom narratives podcast over instagram 00:38:22.780 --> 00:38:26.280 and facebook remember together we can transform 00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:29.920 our scars into stars in education one conversation 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:31.000 at a time