Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing In
Education podcast, the space where education
meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in
each episode, we dive deep into the personal
stories of educators, students, leaders, and
frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities
within modern education. Whether you're just
starting your teaching journey, Or are we seasoned
professionals looking for inspiration, we'll
explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent
burnout, and build trauma -informed communities
within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at
the front of the classroom as we get started.
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to today's
episode of the Classroom Narratives podcast.
This is Dr. Joey Weisler, and I'm so privileged
to be joined by Supriya Budhiraja, all the way
from India, to talk to us about international
perspectives on education. It is such a privilege
to have Supriya join me on the show because we're
going to have a really powerful discussion today
to see some of the core similarities and differences
between how education works through a social
and emotional learning perspective, how trauma
-informed education works, and really trying
to dissect this system and all of its parts throughout
our entire globe. So Supriya, welcome to the
conversation and thank you for helping us broaden
our perspectives about what is truly possible
within education. So glad you're here with us.
Thank you so much, Joey. It's an honor to be
in this show. I'm so glad we found each other.
And so Supriya, I wanted to ask, again, because
most of our listeners are based in America, many
of our educators are grappling with how to make
education more student -centered, teaching to
the heart over the brain, the heart in terms
of getting to their emotions versus the brain
where we just try and feed them logic. This term
of social and emotional learning has become a
buzz, if you will, here in America. And I'm wondering,
in India, how does trauma -informed learning
shape our classrooms and what can Americans gain
from the perspective that you have on that so
I've been a Teach-For-India fellow and during
our trainings we've been in touch with fellows
from Teach-For-America and i believe our stories
have been same of getting the students in the
classroom building that psychological safety
But over here in India, the only difference is
that there are first generation students coming
in the classroom. And over here, the parents
are allowed to hit the children. So there are
a lot of things that happen. The similarity over
here with the fellows, what I hear the story
from there and here, falls almost the same. And
the only thing that the parents look upon is
that their child is going regular to the school,
not missing out. So sometimes life is so harsh.
They have to earn their bread, like their daily
wage earners. And for that, sometimes they need the
help of their children, which as a consequence,
they miss the school. And at the end, literacy
goes nowhere. Children missing the school. Or
when they're coming to school, either they're
beaten up or they're burned. One of my most memorable
experiences is one of my child coming to the
school. She was all burned. Her hands were burned.
Her face was burned. Something had happened back
home. And the reason that I got to know was that
she did not want to come to school. So her parents,
her specifically her mother, because she was
a single parent, she had burnt her hand and her
face also. And on my asking, because everything
was just coming out. So it was all swollen and
it required medical attention. So when I asked
her, let's go back home. We're going to visit
the doctor. She was scared. And the other students
came up as that. We can't go back home. If we
go back home, we'll be beaten up more. And so
is in the school. We are not accepted in the
classroom. We can't sit in the classroom. They
never ask whether we are feeling at ease or not.
So I took her to the medical center, the hospital
nearby, got her treated. And that is where I
realized that the importance of having that safety
in the classroom, if they're not getting anywhere,
what is the role a teacher plays in the life
of the child. And that is where my journey actually
begin as a teacher trainer, as someone who want
to work in this sector and have student voices
out in my country, in the classrooms, that student
have their voice, they have their, and the classrooms
are more student centric than the teacher being
the dictator. So the school really is that safe
space for the students then. Yes, it is. So right
now we struggle with poverty. Though we are developing,
we have grown a lot. And still this poverty is
still a concern. So being the bread earner, being
illiterate, and they want their children to be
in the school, and children not listening, getting
into drugs or something, or maybe just to earn
a living, getting into a wrong side, like I would
say, there are a lot of jobs that you don't want
your children to do it, right? And that is where
the barrier comes. That is where the parents
become really strict and they want their child
to listen to them. But for a child at that time,
knowing their circumstances, wants to break through,
wants to help. And that is where this drift happened.
That is where this confusion happened. That is
where this whole argument started. And they end
up, rather than explaining and letting the child
know, they end up hitting out of frustration.
Because parents are frustrated, they need to
earn a living. The child is frustrated that, 'I
want to help' and, 'I want to be there' and 'I want
to get out of this vicious cycle of poverty.'
But without realizing that education is the key.
It is really important they don't realize. So that
is where we build up in the classroom to make
them understand that education is the only key
that will get you out of every trouble. That
is where we started our learning circle. That
is where when we sat down and spoke about a lot
of things and children actually open up. When
they were allowed in the classroom to sit at
the back, not to study, we were okay with that.
because language was also a barrier. Everyone
over here wants English to be their known language
so that they can go around for the job. Now comes
over here the scene of empathy that actually focuses
on developing the skill, the vocational skill.
Earlier our education was majorly theatrical,
not actually polishing the skills out of the
children. This became a support system where
if they are to have that subject of their own
choice. Maybe they're not good with business
studies, but they're good in entrepreneurship.
Maybe they're not good with computer science,
but they're good with IT. So maximum children drop
out after grade nine. So till grade eight, we have
compulsory education over here. So children are
given free mid day meals so that they come to
school. And after that, half of
the strength vanishes. So we have to actually
go in the communities and catch them to come
back to the classroom. and continue their studies.
These different vocational courses come in place
and this helps them to carry on their passion
and understand that they can do something. That's
an incredible anecdote. Thank you for sharing
all of that to start with. And you're making
me think about what does classroom discipline
look like? So we have a proper teacher training
things and the classroom management, classroom
culture, classroom routines. Each and every training
is done. But when it comes to the classrooms
that are in one classroom, there are more than
60 children in one classroom. And it's like 60
to 1 is the ratio. That's what I'm talking about
when we move on to the underprivileged school.
But whereas in private sector, we do have that
bandwidth where 30 to 1 or 25 to 1 is the ratio.
Those are the parents who have the capacity to
pay. And the privileged ones have it. But then
again, the struggle remains the same. When you
enter the classroom, what kind of culture are
you building? What is the psychological safety
you are building? So we create those small, we
call it learning circles, where we sit and every
day we have a conversation for around 10 minutes,
knowing how the day looked like, what were the
things. And even sometimes we also share our
own fears. our own traumas, that builds the trust.
What did you gain from your studies and your
research about how to continue supporting and
improving student conditions? My grandparents
were daily wage earners. So my grandma was the
domestic helper, going out to the teachers' houses,
washing their utensils, doing their work, making
sure that her children get a chance to study
and they're being taken care of. The teacher
treats them well. So from there, my father, I've
seen my father doing a lot and taking care of
his siblings Being the youngest one, yet he was
the strongest one who supported each and every
sibling. And he gave everything to us. So we
went to a proper school. We had all the luxuries,
I would say. And even traveling around the world,
the kind of exposure he gave us. But at the same
time, he made us. go back to our root so whenever
we used to go back to our village so over there
there's a small school and I found myself always
being there and realizing the value of education
that that is where I started my journey that
is where I realized and another thing that I
would definitely say is as I said that it's the
educator who builds in the classroom culture
so I've been judged a lot there have been a lot
of times I've not been heard So there was only
one teacher I still remember. She was always
on my support. One teacher putting faith in me
to what I'm saying. And I felt being heard. That
is where I felt that classroom needs need these
kind of teachers. And then during my training,
I heard Rita Pearson. Every child needs that
one champion that hit me so hard. It took me
back to the journey. And that is where I was
like, OK. I'll make sure that champion stays
in the class and that each child deserves that
champion. I think Rita Pearson has to be the
face of every new teacher program. I definitely,
so that's the first video that I play when I
just enter my training, enter with my team. That's
the first thing I play and I want to see how
they feel because it just gives you goosebumps.
It hits you so hard inside and get back to your
story that did you have that champion? That's
a bigger question that even as an educator, we
struggle. Did we have that champion? Was there
any one person we had that we could really think
of or rely on? That is where you hit that emotional
part. And that is where they start thinking.
And I feel like most new teachers go into education,
like you said, Supriya, because they've had that
champion. And deep down, despite all the challenges
that we face, we know we can have the potential
to become. like that champion because they were
able to do it for us so it's like we're paying
it forward Actually, I would have loved it if
what you're saying would have been 100 % true.
But what I see over here in my country, so the
job of teacher is not valued. It's considered
like, okay, for a girl, oh, you're going to get
married. You need to, you know, take care of
your family and balance things out. So teaching
is the best profession. Even though if she wants
to become a doctor, even if she wants to become
a pilot, even if she wants to be in a corporate,
she's not allowed at the end. forced by her family
for circumstances to get into the teaching job
so this also matter whether are you a teacher
by choice or by chance that plays an immense
role and for those that are a teacher by chance
like how do they work through the profession
because that's that's tough even teachers who
want to be it because it's their choice even
they have a very challenging time so what is
it like for those that are in it by force The
teacher by choice, they're going to go a milestone
ahead with their own will. They'll be happy doing
things. They'll keep evolving. They're going
to look onto the opportunities, what they can
get right. But whereas teachers by chance, you
need to push them every now and then. You need
to sit with them. You need to talk with them
because they themselves are sometimes so frustrated
that they don't want to do the job. Their circumstances
are making them be here. They miss going back
to their corporate job. They miss going back
to what they love. So that is where a coach comes
into seeing where you need to sit and talk and
keep probing or maybe just finding out opportunities
within the system. Recently, one of the teachers
said, like, I don't want to be in this teaching.
I've been good in admin. So that is where it
just came. So can we create an opportunity that
she can shift into admin and get her things,
you know, get what you want? So this is the shift
that I believe. There's a need of shift of a
mindset. That teaching job is not easy. You can't
say that. That to balance your family, oh, you're
going to go at 7 and be back by 2 p .m. So you'll
be able to handle. No, it's not that. It's a
whole day thing. Even after coming back home,
you are busy with the administrative work. You're
busy making the reports. You're busy making your
lesson plan. So there are times you don't get
time in the school. You're just coming back with
the whole work at home. And there is no appreciation
to it. We struggle. Right now, what gives me
a hope is that my students who were with me once
when I was a fellow in grade six, now they are
a fellow and they are leading ahead and they
are leading all those things of giving back to
the community, getting up and making sure the
spaces created are now safe. So we are actually
working and I can say the hope is still there.
It has started shining in India, actually. It
has just started. That's a beautiful story of
resilience. And it makes me wonder because...
I think we deal with that a lot in America as
well, but I'm always interested to hear like
different extremes of that, if you will, in terms
of how do teachers in India have trauma -informed
training? What does that look like, trauma -informed
teacher training? And how do the educators that
you work with try and care for themselves and
not feel emotional exhaustion because of the
types of experiences they hear from their students
on a regular basis? When you say like trauma
informed, as I told you, like this word is not
used over here. They're not much aware about
this. But yeah, social emotional learning is
taking a boom of understanding their own emotion
and understanding the emotions of the children.
If you go like specific with what a trauma informed
training look like, I won't say it is like a
full awareness over here. It is very less. But
yes, right now they're putting their spaces where
they're talking about building this social emotional
learning in place, specifically acknowledging
the emotions of the child. But what trauma they're
coming from or how they need to be dealt of,
that is still a struggle. That is where teachers
need to go back to the counselor. Sometimes they
don't even realize. So that is still a struggle,
I would say. Right. So just understanding. what
trauma is before you become trauma -informed.
We have to define it before we know how to act
on it. Exactly, exactly. So sometimes even while
having a discussion of what has happened or what
led to the action of you talking to the child
and from the whole class or just raising your
voice, so we just realize the teacher is not
even informed that. the background of the child
from where the child is coming from or if there
is a certain kind of a behavior why is it so
the why gets missing that is where we need to
push them yeah because i know that here in the
states the social worker situation or the school
counselor situation is that there are extremely
high caseloads of students with very low resources
to work with and for those that want more of
a counselor's perspective from America we can
go ahead and check out Minca Langer from season
one you'll have a link in the show notes. So Supriya
I also wanted to think about what classroom discipline
looks like with schools in India because i'll
mention an example here in the states and i'm
going to be very transparent about it. Normally
here in the states, the child is sent to the assistant
principal or the principal they have a little
conversation they get a lollipop they come back
and they go about their business and it's very
challenging for teachers because they feel like
there needs to be more accountability on the
students behavior in order for what occurs to
be rectified and corrected what are some steps
towards mediating discipline that you've seen
within your own school system i've been lucky
enough to work with such management that they
do listen to the teachers and but versus the
reality checkers when you work with other managements
there are managements where they'll not listen
so the simplest thing they'll say is that if
there is any complaint coming from the parent
so we'll never support it will be on their side
So you have to be careful about your actions.
You have to be careful about things. Versus the
managements that I have worked with, they have
been very supportive. So they do ask about things.
They do help us and guide us that these are things
that you must have so that when a parent or when
something like this happened, we have evidences
in place. We have things in place to show the
parent that the teacher is not at fault. With
managements that follow the mentality of the
parent is always right that's true that's what
what do they gain from that especially in terms
of building morale from their teachers? So over
here when the principals are working so they
have this pressure of admissions also they have
this pressure of retaining also so if they keep
their customers happy I would say customers
I would not say over here as stakeholder because
right now they're customers because they're paying
They're coming, they're sending their children,
they're paying us and things are happening in
the school because of the payment that is coming.
And that is where sometimes we are also told
if there are admissions, you'll get a salary
hike. If there are no admissions, then you see
where you're going. But then there are managements
who actually believe in human as a resource.
They actually believe in polishing their teachers.
They actually believe in keeping everyone happy
and bringing it a happy place. Because if everyone
is happy, they'll build on happy culture. And
so are the students. And so are the parents.
And so is your admission increasing. And everything
goes in a cycle. They all are linked together.
You need to invest in human as a resource. You
need to check up onto your culture, whether it's
a happy culture or not. Or are you overburdening
the teachers so that is where the frustration
sometimes get on and then blame the teacher so
it's going from the customer is always right
mentality because truthfully they are a paying
customer to let's use the human as a resource
as a way to find I guess leverage if you will
and everyone who's involved in making education
really matter That's true. And it also depends
on the kind of school leader you are, what values
or beliefs the leader carries. Sometimes there
are leaders that are going to fight for you.
They're going to really stand up in front of
the management and tell them that, hey, this
is not working. You're going to burn them out
and the outcome will be zero. So the role of
the principal is very crucial. The balance between
the staff and the management, even also setting
the right kind of expectation and also sharing
what gonna lead what because consequences are
important they need to know i love having those
leaders that really try and fight for the well
-being of their faculty because sometimes again
they fight for the well-being of business Not
people. But even though if we have such leaders
at the end of the day, they are also employees.
Somewhere they also have that burden. So I would
give that benefit of doubt to them. Maybe they
are also struggling with that because the school
is of the management. Principal is the employee.
So are the teachers. So then what role do the
parents play in education? Like in here, we have
two extremes. Most of the time we have. the helicopter
parents that are always very, very involved in
the learning process to the point where it's
like, well, they should just be taking the class
themselves. And we have other parents that don't
even know what courses their children are taking.
What does the parent involvement look like where
you are? I said, so make sure of those when we
have those helicopter parents or those who are
at least concerned. So that's where our role
changes with the helicopter parents. So with
every little thing, it has to be reported. Every
report, every anecdote has to be sent. And then
again, a lot of conversation. And at the end,
they're not happy. You are the one you're not
doing it. This has to be done. So we make them
come to the classroom. We make them teach the
children. Really? So once they take upon to the
charge and they have that experience, that's
where we build empathy with them. That's where
we build that trust. We are doing our job. We
are doing our best. So trust us. And the trust
builds up. That's where things start happening
in a smooth way. So that's why we hold a lot
of events where parents are invited to come and
take over. Because the best thing, you give them
the experience only then. And those who are least
interested, so it's important for the student
to empower. So what kind of things you require.
And maybe like a little hand -holding with the
parent. Because sometimes we feel that parents
are not interested, but they have their own stories.
Definitely. That's something we need to take
note of here in America. I think that's a great
strategy to bring in the parents and have them
teach for a day. Oh, trust me, it works wonders
when you're going to have that. I would imagine.
How are students graded in your system? So, well,
over here, till grade five, we have rubrics.
we don't give marks because earlier it was all
uh marks marks and it was becoming a very hard
way of for the students to and for the parents
also a lot of competition so when you start giving
marks it is not the students the parents who
start competing and that's where we struggle
so every time they'll end up they'll not realize
that "okay, my kid has this caliber and he needs
to work upon this" versus, "Oh, that kid got such
good marks and my child is nowhere. What is your
task? And is he really studying?" And the kid,
the poor chap either will get humiliated or the
teacher will get humiliated. So that's a little
challenging over here to get the parents and
acknowledge that, "okay, this is where your child
is appreciated." So we are trying our best to
make sure that parents appreciate it. So they
had stopped from giving them marks. They shifted
it to competency-based. They shifted to holistic.
So till grade five, they have given rubrics.
Actually, schools can follow till grade eight.
So there are proper rubrics for each competency.
And then later, when you come to the higher grades
of 9th and 10th, where they get a proper assessment,
where they're given marks, they are being assessed,
and the board comes into place. That is across
India. The Central Board of Secondary Education,
that is where things start happening from
because by the time the child is in 9th 10th
11th 12th they know what marks mean they know
how to be assessed and that two system has changed
now rather than going to those rot memorization
so we want them to have to relate it with the
real life what is the real life in a situation
going to look like how are the teachers working
to make the learning relevant to their students
so they aren't just learning or memorizing ideas
rather really trying to apply them to what they
want to do. We have got project -based learning
in space. So we actually took real -time thing
which student led and they thought, okay, this
is a problem that we need to lead. Like one of
the school I remember took up the responsibility
of creating a learning center in the community
because they don't have a space to go and study.
So they called it magical room and they took
the whole responsibility. Parents also came on
board where every evening the parents do the
duty and the children come. and they teach the
younger ones. So that's how the rotation is happening.
It's beautiful to see. Yeah, and it sounds like
a lot of project -based learning is what helps
the students apply their knowledge and make it
relevant and meaningful, which goes so far beyond
memorization and recall. Yeah, and that is where,
so when I said it's like a holistic report, that
is where when I know that one of my child cannot
write, so maybe because of some learning disability,
but I can, of course, see how the child is presenting
the idea, how his community, what kind of, what
is the clarity of the concept he has or she has.
So that is where you actually get into an equity
situation that you know how to evaluate and there
are ample chances given to the student. Definitely.
And by doing so, you're involving the whole child
in their learning process and not just focusing
on the brain. That's true. So even for the higher
grade this year, our CBSE has introduced two
board exams. So they're given chance twice, not
once. Like it's not like a do or die situation.
So they get chance twice that they can improve
what they want to give again. So they're not
actually getting that anxious or getting into
that panic mode. Right. You know, those are pretty
high stakes graduation requirements in the States.
And here, I mean, there's a risk of getting held
back a grade if you don't succeed on your first
try. Our children go through a lot. That is why
we see so many societal case. That is the thing.
Maybe I'm really glad that our education system
is not thinking about it. Our government is thinking
about it and giving a lot of chances to the students.
And this is where we need to polish the mindset
of the teacher also. Exactly. And I love that
because in giving chance, yeah, you're focusing
on the child and not the brain, which are two
totally different things. That's true. So you're
more of student -centric. If not one is cleared,
maybe the other. So give maximum opportunities.
What I'm gaining from this conversation is that
the world is this big. The world is so small
because education is just, it's exactly the same.
Wow. I was not expecting our similarities to
really overlap to this extreme. So then what
does trauma -informed education look like in
India currently? And what can educators do to
learn and grow? What can they still learn about
the topic to benefit their classrooms? I really
think they need to first connect with what a
trauma looks like. Having the understanding of
trauma not only of themselves also because there
are a lot of educators that join being an educator
with their own trauma and their own struggling
and sometimes their biases plays very strong
in the classroom there's a strong disbalance
that comes up so that is where i feel a lot of
work has to be done so when we have our counselors
in place we make sure that our educators are
also going so right after covid mental health
has become a very strong concern across the globe
even in India also that had actually made them
acknowledge that there is trauma there are childhood
traumas also and even you as educator entering
you also have your own traumas which you carry
along and you need to get healed before you move
across because it's important to go into the
process of healing which now this thing has started
booming over here in India but yet it's a long
way to go. Gosh, again, as we come to the end
of our conversation, I'm continuing to really,
really think about the fact that the more we
try to globalize education, we see the world
is so small. So, Supriya, what would you say
is a takeaway from today's conversation in terms
of what people in both India and American systems
and all over the world in education should know?
And what's maybe even a change that you wish
we could see within the system? I just feel that
like you said your topics it's trauma informed
education i think this is the need of the hour
this is the major thing and my major takeaway
is we're working upon is that um being human
there's a lot of chaos around we forget that
after all teachers are human our students are
human where can our listeners go to learn more
about you and your work they can reach out to
me on linkedin they're my older work everything
is there on linkedin Perfect. We'll have that
link in the show notes for you as well. So Supriya,
wow. Thank you so much again for this excellent
conversation. And hopefully what our listeners
have gained here is that while the world is so
big, education has so many commonalities that
make it feel so much smaller. And the more we
can learn to become more aware as to what's going
on around us, the more likely we can then be
able to change the system for everybody who is
a part of it for the better. Thank you for joining
us on the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education
podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made
you think differently, I'd love to hear from
you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen
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at a time.