WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.459 Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in 00:00:02.459 --> 00:00:04.919 Education podcast, the space where education 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:09.039 meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:11.419 each episode, we dive deep into the personal 00:00:11.419 --> 00:00:15.099 stories of educators, students, leaders, and 00:00:15.099 --> 00:00:18.100 frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:21.280 within modern education. Whether you're just 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:23.899 starting your teaching journey, or are we seasoned 00:00:23.899 --> 00:00:26.280 professionals looking for inspiration, we'll 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:29.079 explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.899 burnout, and build trauma -informed communities 00:00:31.899 --> 00:00:35.000 within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.820 the front of the classroom as we get started. 00:00:37.530 --> 00:00:39.450 Welcome back to the Classroom Narratives podcast, 00:00:39.630 --> 00:00:41.649 where today's guest is somebody who has helped 00:00:41.649 --> 00:00:44.049 reframe how many of us think about education, 00:00:44.350 --> 00:00:47.490 not just in terms of how we teach, but also why 00:00:47.490 --> 00:00:50.770 we teach and how schools can evolve to support 00:00:50.770 --> 00:00:54.350 the whole human being. Rob McLeod is a Canadian 00:00:54.350 --> 00:00:57.250 raised educator who has also taught internationally 00:00:57.250 --> 00:01:00.929 in Germany and in Belgium, and he's also a coach 00:01:00.929 --> 00:01:03.250 and the co -host of the Reinventing Education 00:01:03.250 --> 00:01:07.030 podcast, which is a platform used to understand 00:01:07.030 --> 00:01:10.250 how schools work with those who run them. And 00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:12.590 Rob is here today to bring some deep insight 00:01:12.590 --> 00:01:15.590 into how systems think, talk about integral theory, 00:01:15.750 --> 00:01:18.250 as well as school culture and topics that are 00:01:18.989 --> 00:01:21.349 urgently having us transform the way that we 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:23.750 see education. So Rob, thank you so much for 00:01:23.750 --> 00:01:26.230 being here all the way from Belgium. It is such 00:01:26.230 --> 00:01:28.689 a privilege and welcome to the show. Thank 00:01:28.689 --> 00:01:30.549 you so much, Joey. I'm very glad to be here. 00:01:31.189 --> 00:01:33.290 It's such a delight because I'm just so fascinated 00:01:33.290 --> 00:01:35.230 by the work that you do and I know that our guests 00:01:35.230 --> 00:01:38.640 will feel the same. So I wanted to begin just 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:41.959 by thinking about what you are doing within education 00:01:41.959 --> 00:01:45.219 currently. What inspired you to go into this 00:01:45.219 --> 00:01:48.379 field and do so through such a global sense in 00:01:48.379 --> 00:01:51.359 both North America and in Europe? And what's 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.400 your background to that in addition to some of 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:56.659 the current roles that you have? So what got 00:01:56.659 --> 00:01:59.739 me interested was I'm someone who was very lucky 00:01:59.739 --> 00:02:03.659 to have had a fantastic primary school experience. 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:05.719 So from kindergarten to grade eight, I was in 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.719 a... absolutely fantastic, high -functioning 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:12.060 public school in rural Canada. And I had some 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:14.860 very influential teachers that really, to this 00:02:14.860 --> 00:02:17.900 day, have left a mark on me in a very positive 00:02:17.900 --> 00:02:20.800 way. My high school years, for a variety of reasons, 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:23.800 were less desirable. I was less academically 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.580 successful, struggled more socially, struggled 00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:29.139 with some of the mental, emotional transitions 00:02:29.139 --> 00:02:33.080 of that life phase. And then I'm someone who 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.620 absolutely crushed it in post -secondary when 00:02:35.620 --> 00:02:39.219 I finally got to university. And when I look 00:02:39.219 --> 00:02:41.159 back on it, there were some really influential 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:43.580 people who helped me through the good and through 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:47.099 the bad times. And I guess there was like a part 00:02:47.099 --> 00:02:49.379 of me that wanted to pay that back in some way 00:02:49.379 --> 00:02:53.139 or to be that for someone else alongside several 00:02:53.139 --> 00:02:56.060 other interests connected to education. I started 00:02:56.060 --> 00:02:58.400 in Ontario, started teaching at a time where 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.180 it was really difficult to be a new teacher. 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.000 After three years of being very lucky to have 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.759 work as a new teacher, I thought I'm going to 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.860 go teach internationally for just two years. 00:03:09.370 --> 00:03:11.270 I'll come back and we'll see if it's a little 00:03:11.270 --> 00:03:13.750 bit easier to keep working in schools. Those 00:03:13.750 --> 00:03:16.349 two years turned into 11 going on 12 years now, 00:03:16.530 --> 00:03:19.710 five years in Frankfurt, Germany, and five years 00:03:19.710 --> 00:03:23.189 in Belgium, with a little brief return to Canada 00:03:23.189 --> 00:03:25.810 in the middle there before settling down long 00:03:25.810 --> 00:03:28.969 -term now in Belgium. So most recently, my biggest 00:03:28.969 --> 00:03:31.370 role in schools was head of a middle school, 00:03:31.490 --> 00:03:36.569 and I've really enjoyed being in a variety. of 00:03:36.569 --> 00:03:38.689 different educational contexts because as soon 00:03:38.689 --> 00:03:43.310 as you change countries you really notice that 00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:45.250 a lot of the assumptions about what education 00:03:45.250 --> 00:03:48.750 should or shouldn't be get challenged. It just 00:03:48.750 --> 00:03:52.870 really opened my eyes to the huge diversity of 00:03:52.870 --> 00:03:55.990 values behind different education systems and 00:03:55.990 --> 00:04:00.650 at the same time patterns that seemed to be present 00:04:00.650 --> 00:04:05.400 across all of the systems that I was coming in 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:07.620 contact with. And now I can't ignore it. As far 00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:09.460 as my current role, I guess you could say I'm 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:12.099 in a sabbatical year where I'm just finishing 00:04:12.099 --> 00:04:14.680 up my first book, which has been a wonderful 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:17.899 and humbling experience to share some of those 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:20.759 ideas that I was just alluding to in a book that 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:24.189 I hope to have released this summer. Excellent. 00:04:24.269 --> 00:04:26.189 We can't wait to hear about your upcoming text 00:04:26.189 --> 00:04:28.610 as well. And something that's grabbed my attention 00:04:28.610 --> 00:04:31.089 is that I wanted to hear about some of the competing 00:04:31.089 --> 00:04:33.730 value systems and patterns that you've explored. 00:04:33.829 --> 00:04:37.129 And as a leader, how do you acknowledge that 00:04:37.129 --> 00:04:40.149 and share it among those who work alongside you 00:04:40.149 --> 00:04:45.509 as well? So what became very apparent to me was 00:04:45.509 --> 00:04:50.269 when we ask people, what does a good education 00:04:50.269 --> 00:04:53.839 look like? I noticed that there are three very 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.439 distinct paths that answers started to take. 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:59.980 And with time, I kind of, alongside the work 00:04:59.980 --> 00:05:02.000 of Brendan on our podcast, Brendan O 'Leary, 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.660 we started to really shape out what these three 00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:08.439 paths look like in terms of three paths that 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:11.519 a school can go on in terms of its development. 00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:16.459 And we gave three terms, expert, coach, and counselor. 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:21.889 And these three... represent three very different 00:05:21.889 --> 00:05:26.050 roles that the school and its staff can take 00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:31.410 for its students or for their students. So if 00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:35.269 you're an educator, ask yourself, how do you 00:05:35.269 --> 00:05:38.750 want the decisions about teaching and learning 00:05:38.750 --> 00:05:43.389 in your classroom to be decided? And to me, there 00:05:43.389 --> 00:05:46.730 are three. different ways that the teaching and 00:05:46.730 --> 00:05:48.689 learning decisions in your classroom can be decided. 00:05:48.910 --> 00:05:51.589 And they are either through autonomy, through 00:05:51.589 --> 00:05:55.790 collaboration, or through negotiation. So the 00:05:55.790 --> 00:06:00.110 expert school, the head of school decides for 00:06:00.110 --> 00:06:04.290 the staff below them. And in the classroom, the 00:06:04.290 --> 00:06:06.449 teacher being the head of the pyramid in their 00:06:06.449 --> 00:06:09.339 classroom makes the decisions. for their students. 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:11.839 So they can use their professional discernment 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.199 to custom tailor what they're doing to the students 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.160 in their classroom. So they are using autonomy 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.879 to make the decisions for the teaching and learning 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:22.680 in their classroom. Now, of course, there will 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:26.439 still be board regulations and the state's standards, 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.180 but they have the autonomy to carry out those 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:34.139 things as they see best fit. Now, if we move 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:38.180 on to the coach, there's still very much a hierarchy, 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:41.759 but now it's layered. We've given up some autonomy. 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:44.439 We don't have the final say on what we're doing 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:46.180 because we have to uphold this shared school 00:06:46.180 --> 00:06:48.779 -wide approach to teaching and learning. But 00:06:48.779 --> 00:06:51.600 we see it or we believe it to be more effective 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:53.920 and more efficient than if we were all working 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:57.819 with autonomy. And so those coach teachers, they're 00:06:57.819 --> 00:07:01.540 using collaboration across the staff to inform 00:07:01.540 --> 00:07:03.720 what the teaching and learning looks like in 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:07.019 their room. And then finally, if we move to the 00:07:07.019 --> 00:07:10.980 counselor approach, we've flattened the hierarchy. 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:15.399 So we've gone from a clear hierarchy to a layered 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.379 hierarchy and now a flattened hierarchy where 00:07:18.379 --> 00:07:23.139 anyone, student, staff, even parents, can influence 00:07:23.139 --> 00:07:25.860 the direction of a school and can influence the 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:28.129 direction of the teaching and learning. There's 00:07:28.129 --> 00:07:30.529 a fourth branch that you've mentioned as well 00:07:30.529 --> 00:07:32.550 in our prior conversations which is called the 00:07:32.550 --> 00:07:34.569 facilitator and i know a lot of our educators 00:07:34.569 --> 00:07:37.810 also may identify with that like even when i 00:07:37.810 --> 00:07:40.829 walk into a classroom i will say to my own college 00:07:40.829 --> 00:07:44.759 students i am your course facilitator and without 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.939 even really understanding what that meant, that 00:07:46.939 --> 00:07:49.860 was already by default how I identify myself. 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.180 And then when I heard you talk about it on reinventing 00:07:53.180 --> 00:07:54.819 education, like, oh, yeah, no, that's right. 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:57.139 That's who I am. That's what I am. Can you tell 00:07:57.139 --> 00:08:00.740 us more about that model as well? So this is 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:02.939 a little bit like a surprise ending where I keep 00:08:02.939 --> 00:08:04.420 talking about the three types of school, the 00:08:04.420 --> 00:08:07.240 three expert coaching counselor, the three. And 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.480 then. at near the end of the conversation, and 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:11.480 as it happens in my book, in the final section 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:14.120 of the book, I say, actually, I would argue that 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:18.220 there's a fourth emerging. The addendum. Yeah, 00:08:18.339 --> 00:08:22.680 the facilitator. So the facilitator is interesting 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:25.620 because it's almost like it contradicts what 00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:27.819 I've already told you today, Joey. So I'm saying 00:08:27.819 --> 00:08:30.879 that in our heart and mind and in our practice, 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.919 we tend to lean towards one of these three more 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:36.629 than the others. I would argue that there is 00:08:36.629 --> 00:08:39.830 a fourth approach and it's the facilitator. And 00:08:39.830 --> 00:08:43.009 I guess before I go into more detail about it, 00:08:43.070 --> 00:08:46.789 what I often say about the three types is you're 00:08:46.789 --> 00:08:51.029 better off choosing one of the three types, expert, 00:08:51.090 --> 00:08:54.889 coach, and counselor, and doing it well than 00:08:54.889 --> 00:08:57.990 you are to be caught in a tug of war between 00:08:57.990 --> 00:09:02.669 types, an unintentional tug of war. Because if 00:09:02.669 --> 00:09:04.700 you've worked in schools, probably more than 00:09:04.700 --> 00:09:07.620 four years, you've probably seen a school move 00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:11.039 in one direction, abandon it, and then move in 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.360 the opposite direction, and then abandon that 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.000 and move in another direction. And sometimes 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.340 it's influenced by the authorities above you. 00:09:18.379 --> 00:09:20.519 Sometimes it's just a change in who's the principal 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:23.860 or leadership. But schools have this habit of 00:09:23.860 --> 00:09:25.840 drifting in a tug of war back and forth between 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.080 types. And this is why I thought addressing these 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:31.220 three types was so important because we lose 00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:34.779 so much time. energy, resources, and personal 00:09:34.779 --> 00:09:38.100 investment. Educators get jaded after a few years 00:09:38.100 --> 00:09:40.059 or go, oh, we're going back to the thing you 00:09:40.059 --> 00:09:42.120 told us there was research saying we shouldn't 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.639 be doing anymore five years ago. So choose one 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.000 of these three types. Do it well is the best 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:50.519 advice. So it sounds like instead of systems 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.879 that work in isolation between the counselor, 00:09:53.059 --> 00:09:55.779 coach, and expert schools, these are more like 00:09:55.779 --> 00:10:00.879 paradigms that coexist within education. Yes. 00:10:01.419 --> 00:10:05.419 And I've only ever seen a blend. And I think 00:10:05.419 --> 00:10:07.320 that's why this has been so helpful for so many 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.360 people. It put words to something that we, most 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:14.440 of us inherently felt and kind of knew, but couldn't 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:18.659 quite say. I likened it the other day to having 00:10:18.659 --> 00:10:22.059 only ever tasted the three flavors in a cocktail. 00:10:22.259 --> 00:10:25.299 We've only ever experienced them as mixed together. 00:10:26.620 --> 00:10:28.179 But when you actually sit down and say, oh no, 00:10:28.259 --> 00:10:30.159 it's actually three different ingredients. It's 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:32.600 orange juice, it's seltzer, and it's whatever, 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:34.919 lime or something like that. Do you notice how 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:36.980 they're actually completely different things? 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:39.779 But you've had a more lime flavored one or one 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:41.639 that had too much seltzer or one that had too 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.980 much orange juice. So there are things that are 00:10:44.980 --> 00:10:49.740 happening alongside each other. And for the most 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:55.139 part, from what I've seen, the misalignment is 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:57.679 what's at the core of a lot of unspoken challenges 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:01.240 in schools. And to put it into a more positive 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.799 sense, I'm not pretending that every school is 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.919 in peril and in some horrible tug of war between 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:09.240 these three. When you look at the schools that 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.519 are crushing it and doing really well and really 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:14.600 healthy expressions and places people want to 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:16.840 be, students and staff want to be in these schools, 00:11:16.980 --> 00:11:21.940 when I see it, I see it just as a matter of alignment. 00:11:23.419 --> 00:11:26.039 It's, this place got clear on which of the three they 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.059 are, even without these words. Through trial 00:11:29.059 --> 00:11:31.500 and error, you are able to articulate and get 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:34.259 clear what values, what are non -negotiables, 00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:38.059 and you pursue them to their fullest. So when 00:11:38.059 --> 00:11:39.899 I see the schools that are doing really well, 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.799 where people really enjoy being there, I see alignment. 00:11:43.019 --> 00:11:45.929 When I see the schools that are dysfunctional 00:11:45.929 --> 00:11:48.789 in the schools where people are apathetic and 00:11:48.789 --> 00:11:51.009 not caring and feeling like I'm doing all this 00:11:51.009 --> 00:11:52.610 work and it's not contributing meaningfully, 00:11:52.690 --> 00:11:56.789 what I see there is misalignment. And I'm sure 00:11:56.789 --> 00:11:58.990 having the alignment in place can really help 00:11:58.990 --> 00:12:01.690 with instances such as classroom discipline or 00:12:01.690 --> 00:12:04.889 management culture as well. Well, of course, 00:12:05.009 --> 00:12:08.269 yeah. If you are being asked to do practices 00:12:08.269 --> 00:12:11.929 that you personally and professionally disagree 00:12:11.929 --> 00:12:16.080 with, that's not sustainable. But if you're being 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.139 asked to carry out practices that you do personally 00:12:20.139 --> 00:12:24.960 and professionally agree with, it's just, it's 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.200 leaning you much more towards like a flow state, 00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:31.519 that alignment, things functioning well than 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.419 the opposite. Right. And I wanted to hear a little 00:12:35.419 --> 00:12:37.779 bit more about your authorial works as well, 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.639 such as your text and your own podcast as well. 00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:44.789 Tell us about that. Yeah, gladly. So the ideas 00:12:44.789 --> 00:12:46.850 that I've been sharing with you today, the three 00:12:46.850 --> 00:12:50.950 or four types of school, that's the main idea 00:12:50.950 --> 00:12:53.330 of the book. I also discussed this idea of the 00:12:53.330 --> 00:12:58.549 four dimensions of a school and similar to the 00:12:58.549 --> 00:13:00.750 story of the four blind men that are touching 00:13:00.750 --> 00:13:04.470 an elephant. Yes. And the one at the trunk saying 00:13:04.470 --> 00:13:06.649 an elephant is like a snake and the one at the 00:13:06.649 --> 00:13:08.830 leg is saying it's like a tree trunk and the 00:13:08.830 --> 00:13:11.500 one at the body is saying it's like a wall. And 00:13:11.500 --> 00:13:13.440 the one at the ear is saying, no, it's delicate 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:15.220 and thin like paper. That's what an elephant 00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:19.240 is. Often in schools, we focus on one of the 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.480 four dimensions more than the others. And those 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:26.679 four dimensions are organizational, relational, 00:13:27.019 --> 00:13:31.220 actionable, and personal. And I won't now get 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:34.519 into a giant explanation or articulation of the 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:37.100 ins and outs of all those four, but... It's another 00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:39.580 really important tool because if you are someone 00:13:39.580 --> 00:13:41.860 who cares and wants to contribute meaningfully 00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:44.500 in schools, you're going to have to navigate 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.639 all four of those. And typically as educators, 00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:51.600 we do one really well. We do two of them okay. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.179 And there's one that's our blind spot or the 00:13:54.179 --> 00:13:56.200 spot where most of our challenges emerge. So 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:59.120 it's another tool, the four dimensions alongside 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.379 the three types to give educators who really 00:14:02.379 --> 00:14:05.940 want to contribute meaningfully. the capacity 00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:09.299 to do so. And I guess in short, what my book 00:14:09.299 --> 00:14:13.019 is really about is, I think all of us know educators 00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:15.340 who got into schools wanting to make a difference 00:14:15.340 --> 00:14:19.840 and showed up full of a lot of passion and then 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:24.120 lost it to some degree along the way. And there's 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.200 a strong start. And then at some point there's 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:28.080 a giant hiccup in the road. And some of that 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.519 is just our naive ideas getting burnt off and 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.759 separating fairy tales from reality for sure. 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:40.179 But typically there's another layer of it, which 00:14:40.179 --> 00:14:42.419 gets into this idea of alignment or misalignment. 00:14:43.340 --> 00:14:50.019 And what I hope that the book does is gives people 00:14:50.019 --> 00:14:52.740 the tools to be able to name which of these three 00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:55.399 environments they thrive in and give them tools 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.639 like the four dimensions then to pursue doing 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.440 that type well and helping educators who are 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:05.929 somewhere between frustrated. to disillusioned, 00:15:06.029 --> 00:15:08.590 to burnt out, to prepared to leave education 00:15:08.590 --> 00:15:11.649 completely, to give them pause for a moment, 00:15:11.789 --> 00:15:15.870 maybe reframe the misalignment or struggles that 00:15:15.870 --> 00:15:18.350 they've been feeling and help them to reclaim 00:15:18.350 --> 00:15:21.950 which of these ways do they feel they contribute 00:15:21.950 --> 00:15:24.889 meaningfully in schools and give them the tools 00:15:24.889 --> 00:15:28.549 to move on that path as opposed to a path towards 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:32.809 the disillusionment. the not caring. And this 00:15:32.809 --> 00:15:35.649 is where the title of my book came in, which 00:15:35.649 --> 00:15:37.750 I'll give you the PG version, which is Schools 00:15:37.750 --> 00:15:42.909 That Give an F. And I didn't choose this title 00:15:42.909 --> 00:15:45.730 as like a clickbaity, get your attention title 00:15:45.730 --> 00:15:48.330 with a swear word in it. I used it because I've 00:15:48.330 --> 00:15:50.970 had conversations with hundreds of passionate 00:15:50.970 --> 00:15:54.389 educators. And the phrase that has come up the 00:15:54.389 --> 00:15:58.070 most when talking with them in private, away 00:15:58.070 --> 00:16:02.960 from professional contexts, is the idea of passionate 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:06.460 educators being terrified of schools that don't 00:16:06.460 --> 00:16:09.840 give an F. Places where people have checked out 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:14.139 and the people don't give an F. And so that was 00:16:14.139 --> 00:16:15.679 the way that I wanted to frame this book is, 00:16:15.779 --> 00:16:18.860 if that's our nightmare, if that's what we want 00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:22.179 to stay away from, how do we build its opposite? 00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:25.840 How do we create schools that do give an F, where 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:31.490 people are contributing meaningfully? to separate 00:16:31.490 --> 00:16:33.750 these three paths you can go on to get there 00:16:33.750 --> 00:16:36.889 and to know which path you should be on. So that's 00:16:36.889 --> 00:16:39.610 the book. Very excited for it. It's a combination 00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:42.889 of these tools along with some stories and a 00:16:42.889 --> 00:16:45.190 lot of very practical things to turn all this 00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:47.889 theory into actionable things you can do in your 00:16:47.889 --> 00:16:50.690 classroom or in your school, in your next interview 00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:54.269 even. And yeah, the work that I'm doing with 00:16:54.269 --> 00:16:57.210 Brendan, that's been the engine that has supported 00:16:57.210 --> 00:17:00.149 this book. I say... I'm the one who sat down 00:17:00.149 --> 00:17:02.889 and typed these words into the Word document 00:17:02.889 --> 00:17:05.450 to make the book. But these ideas have come through 00:17:05.450 --> 00:17:07.529 the work of Brendan O 'Leary and I on our podcast 00:17:07.529 --> 00:17:10.569 over the last six years, where we've just teased 00:17:10.569 --> 00:17:14.309 apart in great detail the subtle differences 00:17:14.309 --> 00:17:16.849 between these three types. And along the way, 00:17:16.849 --> 00:17:19.910 we've been able to have conversations with inspiring 00:17:19.910 --> 00:17:22.549 educators, including yourself, Joey, where... 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.460 We want to talk to people who do care, who do 00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:27.920 give an F and are contributing in meaningful 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:32.140 ways in education. And we'll also see a link 00:17:32.140 --> 00:17:34.519 to, I believe it's episode seven, to Reinventing 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.880 Ed on the podcast, which also goes into excellent 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.400 detail on distinguishing the expert coach and 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.160 counselor roles that we can listen to for additional 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.359 context as well. I believe we did an updated 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:53.400 version, which is episode 124, I believe. Perfect. 00:17:53.619 --> 00:17:56.299 I'm looking forward to that. And is there anything 00:17:56.299 --> 00:17:58.059 in our conversation that we haven't targeted 00:17:58.059 --> 00:18:01.599 on yet that we wanted to speak about today? Or 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:03.240 anything you wanted to leave our listeners with? 00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:08.339 I don't think there's anything that we didn't 00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:10.400 address, but I guess just as a closing thought, 00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:15.460 I think if you're an educator who really cares, 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.700 that's a very special thing. And I think it's 00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:23.069 a natural arc. in the life of a teacher to have 00:18:23.069 --> 00:18:25.710 a strong start and at somewhere things drop off. 00:18:26.450 --> 00:18:30.589 And just as you rose and then had some kind of 00:18:30.589 --> 00:18:35.230 a drop off, I think the idea of renewal is possible. 00:18:36.089 --> 00:18:40.630 And you might not go back to the state you were 00:18:40.630 --> 00:18:42.990 in when you started your career, but I think 00:18:42.990 --> 00:18:45.529 there is, I hate to sound too cliche, but the 00:18:45.529 --> 00:18:48.609 phoenix arising from the ashes. phase of our 00:18:48.609 --> 00:18:50.829 career that we can have. And we often don't hear 00:18:50.829 --> 00:18:53.990 about that. We hear about the jaded, frustrated, 00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:57.329 putting in their time phase of educators. And 00:18:57.329 --> 00:19:00.690 I don't think that that's a destiny. And what 00:19:00.690 --> 00:19:03.690 I really hope for this work and for this book, 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:07.730 and the reason I'm so excited to talk with people 00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:10.150 like you, Joey, is just to spread these ideas 00:19:10.150 --> 00:19:13.710 because I myself went through that. I went from 00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:15.769 feeling like I really was doing my dream job 00:19:15.769 --> 00:19:19.009 to... being in a nightmare when I switched schools 00:19:19.009 --> 00:19:22.250 and found myself in a misaligned experience. 00:19:23.450 --> 00:19:28.609 And I was able to get out of it, not by any help 00:19:28.609 --> 00:19:33.829 from the system. So when I stopped caring, I 00:19:33.829 --> 00:19:37.289 realized there wasn't a role in the system to 00:19:37.289 --> 00:19:39.869 bring you back from that. So I talked to my head 00:19:39.869 --> 00:19:41.730 of school. They basically said, hey, do you want 00:19:41.730 --> 00:19:43.890 the paperwork to quit? Talk to the union. It 00:19:43.890 --> 00:19:46.130 was like, hey, do you want to leave? talked to 00:19:46.130 --> 00:19:48.549 the wellness committee. It was like, well, here 00:19:48.549 --> 00:19:50.970 are some sleep tips and ways to ensure that you're 00:19:50.970 --> 00:19:54.450 doing well. And I realized that we're really 00:19:54.450 --> 00:19:58.670 missing this role in the school system to support 00:19:58.670 --> 00:20:01.569 educators who care, but hit this road bump at 00:20:01.569 --> 00:20:05.630 some point. And until we have those people, and 00:20:05.630 --> 00:20:08.609 until I get to be that person in the school system, 00:20:08.769 --> 00:20:11.789 I'm really hoping that this book and the work 00:20:11.789 --> 00:20:14.700 that we're doing. serves to fill that void right 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:18.039 now, and I hope helps educators who find themselves 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:21.900 in that frustrated phase of their career to gain 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:23.880 the clarification they need and the momentum 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:28.759 that they need to move back to a place of feeling 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:32.009 like they are contributing meaningfully. Wonderful. 00:20:32.009 --> 00:20:34.349 Thank you so much for that. Because my own personal 00:20:34.349 --> 00:20:36.829 conclusion is that when it comes to analyzing 00:20:36.829 --> 00:20:40.289 how disillusionment works within academia, it 00:20:40.289 --> 00:20:43.069 doesn't necessarily dissipate from a gradual 00:20:43.069 --> 00:20:45.829 state of improvement. But instead, I found it 00:20:45.829 --> 00:20:48.170 to be just this ongoing cycle that really just 00:20:48.170 --> 00:20:51.789 oscillates back and forth from feet to helplessness 00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:54.950 throughout an academic's entire career as they 00:20:54.950 --> 00:20:57.089 start to build and grow into their own identities, 00:20:57.190 --> 00:21:02.359 one experience at a time. Yeah. Well, you're 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.579 at the risk now of having me go on like a four 00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:07.599 -hour fireside chat with you about personal development 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:09.940 alongside professional development. But yes, 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.980 I'm fully with you on that. We'll need to have 00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:14.720 a whole separate conversation just for that. 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:16.680 I'll start with that line and then we'll go from 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.700 there again. That'll be our take two. I'm so 00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:22.029 excited. Excellent. Well, Rob, thank you so much 00:21:22.029 --> 00:21:24.109 again for sharing your wisdom and your calm, 00:21:24.230 --> 00:21:27.210 grounded approach to reimagining what's possible 00:21:27.210 --> 00:21:30.250 in education. Because for our teachers and listeners 00:21:30.250 --> 00:21:32.309 who are navigating their classrooms and trying 00:21:32.309 --> 00:21:34.569 to build something meaningful, it's powerful 00:21:34.569 --> 00:21:36.849 to hear that there is a roadmap for change and 00:21:36.849 --> 00:21:38.930 that we don't have to focus on these obsolete 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:41.130 and outdated systems in order to help each other 00:21:41.130 --> 00:21:43.589 make a difference. We'll link the Reinventing 00:21:43.589 --> 00:21:45.769 Education podcast in our show notes so our listeners 00:21:45.769 --> 00:21:48.890 can dive deeper. And until then, just keep making. 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:50.980 sure that you discover your role as you continue 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:52.960 to build your own identity. Thanks for joining 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:57.799 us. Thank you for joining us on the Classroom 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:00.599 Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. If 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:02.920 today's episode inspired you or made you think 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:05.339 differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop 00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:07.960 a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.039 and stay connected with us on the at Classroom 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.359 Narratives Podcast over Instagram and Facebook. 00:22:13.619 --> 00:22:16.980 Remember, together we can transform our scars 00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:20.470 into stars in education. one conversation at 00:22:20.470 --> 00:22:20.829 a time.