Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing in
Education podcast, the space where education
meets resilience. I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in
each episode, we dive deep into the personal
stories of educators, students, leaders, and
frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities
within modern education. Whether you're just
starting your teaching journey, or are we seasoned
professionals looking for inspiration, we'll
explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent
burnout, and build trauma -informed communities
within our schools. Now, let's take a seat at
the front of the classroom as we get started.
Welcome back to the Classroom Narratives podcast,
where today's guest is somebody who has helped
reframe how many of us think about education,
not just in terms of how we teach, but also why
we teach and how schools can evolve to support
the whole human being. Rob McLeod is a Canadian
raised educator who has also taught internationally
in Germany and in Belgium, and he's also a coach
and the co -host of the Reinventing Education
podcast, which is a platform used to understand
how schools work with those who run them. And
Rob is here today to bring some deep insight
into how systems think, talk about integral theory,
as well as school culture and topics that are
urgently having us transform the way that we
see education. So Rob, thank you so much for
being here all the way from Belgium. It is such
a privilege and welcome to the show. Thank
you so much, Joey. I'm very glad to be here.
It's such a delight because I'm just so fascinated
by the work that you do and I know that our guests
will feel the same. So I wanted to begin just
by thinking about what you are doing within education
currently. What inspired you to go into this
field and do so through such a global sense in
both North America and in Europe? And what's
your background to that in addition to some of
the current roles that you have? So what got
me interested was I'm someone who was very lucky
to have had a fantastic primary school experience.
So from kindergarten to grade eight, I was in
a... absolutely fantastic, high -functioning
public school in rural Canada. And I had some
very influential teachers that really, to this
day, have left a mark on me in a very positive
way. My high school years, for a variety of reasons,
were less desirable. I was less academically
successful, struggled more socially, struggled
with some of the mental, emotional transitions
of that life phase. And then I'm someone who
absolutely crushed it in post -secondary when
I finally got to university. And when I look
back on it, there were some really influential
people who helped me through the good and through
the bad times. And I guess there was like a part
of me that wanted to pay that back in some way
or to be that for someone else alongside several
other interests connected to education. I started
in Ontario, started teaching at a time where
it was really difficult to be a new teacher.
After three years of being very lucky to have
work as a new teacher, I thought I'm going to
go teach internationally for just two years.
I'll come back and we'll see if it's a little
bit easier to keep working in schools. Those
two years turned into 11 going on 12 years now,
five years in Frankfurt, Germany, and five years
in Belgium, with a little brief return to Canada
in the middle there before settling down long
-term now in Belgium. So most recently, my biggest
role in schools was head of a middle school,
and I've really enjoyed being in a variety. of
different educational contexts because as soon
as you change countries you really notice that
a lot of the assumptions about what education
should or shouldn't be get challenged. It just
really opened my eyes to the huge diversity of
values behind different education systems and
at the same time patterns that seemed to be present
across all of the systems that I was coming in
contact with. And now I can't ignore it. As far
as my current role, I guess you could say I'm
in a sabbatical year where I'm just finishing
up my first book, which has been a wonderful
and humbling experience to share some of those
ideas that I was just alluding to in a book that
I hope to have released this summer. Excellent.
We can't wait to hear about your upcoming text
as well. And something that's grabbed my attention
is that I wanted to hear about some of the competing
value systems and patterns that you've explored.
And as a leader, how do you acknowledge that
and share it among those who work alongside you
as well? So what became very apparent to me was
when we ask people, what does a good education
look like? I noticed that there are three very
distinct paths that answers started to take.
And with time, I kind of, alongside the work
of Brendan on our podcast, Brendan O 'Leary,
we started to really shape out what these three
paths look like in terms of three paths that
a school can go on in terms of its development.
And we gave three terms, expert, coach, and counselor.
And these three... represent three very different
roles that the school and its staff can take
for its students or for their students. So if
you're an educator, ask yourself, how do you
want the decisions about teaching and learning
in your classroom to be decided? And to me, there
are three. different ways that the teaching and
learning decisions in your classroom can be decided.
And they are either through autonomy, through
collaboration, or through negotiation. So the
expert school, the head of school decides for
the staff below them. And in the classroom, the
teacher being the head of the pyramid in their
classroom makes the decisions. for their students.
So they can use their professional discernment
to custom tailor what they're doing to the students
in their classroom. So they are using autonomy
to make the decisions for the teaching and learning
in their classroom. Now, of course, there will
still be board regulations and the state's standards,
but they have the autonomy to carry out those
things as they see best fit. Now, if we move
on to the coach, there's still very much a hierarchy,
but now it's layered. We've given up some autonomy.
We don't have the final say on what we're doing
because we have to uphold this shared school
-wide approach to teaching and learning. But
we see it or we believe it to be more effective
and more efficient than if we were all working
with autonomy. And so those coach teachers, they're
using collaboration across the staff to inform
what the teaching and learning looks like in
their room. And then finally, if we move to the
counselor approach, we've flattened the hierarchy.
So we've gone from a clear hierarchy to a layered
hierarchy and now a flattened hierarchy where
anyone, student, staff, even parents, can influence
the direction of a school and can influence the
direction of the teaching and learning. There's
a fourth branch that you've mentioned as well
in our prior conversations which is called the
facilitator and i know a lot of our educators
also may identify with that like even when i
walk into a classroom i will say to my own college
students i am your course facilitator and without
even really understanding what that meant, that
was already by default how I identify myself.
And then when I heard you talk about it on reinventing
education, like, oh, yeah, no, that's right.
That's who I am. That's what I am. Can you tell
us more about that model as well? So this is
a little bit like a surprise ending where I keep
talking about the three types of school, the
three expert coaching counselor, the three. And
then. at near the end of the conversation, and
as it happens in my book, in the final section
of the book, I say, actually, I would argue that
there's a fourth emerging. The addendum. Yeah,
the facilitator. So the facilitator is interesting
because it's almost like it contradicts what
I've already told you today, Joey. So I'm saying
that in our heart and mind and in our practice,
we tend to lean towards one of these three more
than the others. I would argue that there is
a fourth approach and it's the facilitator. And
I guess before I go into more detail about it,
what I often say about the three types is you're
better off choosing one of the three types, expert,
coach, and counselor, and doing it well than
you are to be caught in a tug of war between
types, an unintentional tug of war. Because if
you've worked in schools, probably more than
four years, you've probably seen a school move
in one direction, abandon it, and then move in
the opposite direction, and then abandon that
and move in another direction. And sometimes
it's influenced by the authorities above you.
Sometimes it's just a change in who's the principal
or leadership. But schools have this habit of
drifting in a tug of war back and forth between
types. And this is why I thought addressing these
three types was so important because we lose
so much time. energy, resources, and personal
investment. Educators get jaded after a few years
or go, oh, we're going back to the thing you
told us there was research saying we shouldn't
be doing anymore five years ago. So choose one
of these three types. Do it well is the best
advice. So it sounds like instead of systems
that work in isolation between the counselor,
coach, and expert schools, these are more like
paradigms that coexist within education. Yes.
And I've only ever seen a blend. And I think
that's why this has been so helpful for so many
people. It put words to something that we, most
of us inherently felt and kind of knew, but couldn't
quite say. I likened it the other day to having
only ever tasted the three flavors in a cocktail.
We've only ever experienced them as mixed together.
But when you actually sit down and say, oh no,
it's actually three different ingredients. It's
orange juice, it's seltzer, and it's whatever,
lime or something like that. Do you notice how
they're actually completely different things?
But you've had a more lime flavored one or one
that had too much seltzer or one that had too
much orange juice. So there are things that are
happening alongside each other. And for the most
part, from what I've seen, the misalignment is
what's at the core of a lot of unspoken challenges
in schools. And to put it into a more positive
sense, I'm not pretending that every school is
in peril and in some horrible tug of war between
these three. When you look at the schools that
are crushing it and doing really well and really
healthy expressions and places people want to
be, students and staff want to be in these schools,
when I see it, I see it just as a matter of alignment.
It's, this place got clear on which of the three they
are, even without these words. Through trial
and error, you are able to articulate and get
clear what values, what are non -negotiables,
and you pursue them to their fullest. So when
I see the schools that are doing really well,
where people really enjoy being there, I see alignment.
When I see the schools that are dysfunctional
in the schools where people are apathetic and
not caring and feeling like I'm doing all this
work and it's not contributing meaningfully,
what I see there is misalignment. And I'm sure
having the alignment in place can really help
with instances such as classroom discipline or
management culture as well. Well, of course,
yeah. If you are being asked to do practices
that you personally and professionally disagree
with, that's not sustainable. But if you're being
asked to carry out practices that you do personally
and professionally agree with, it's just, it's
leaning you much more towards like a flow state,
that alignment, things functioning well than
the opposite. Right. And I wanted to hear a little
bit more about your authorial works as well,
such as your text and your own podcast as well.
Tell us about that. Yeah, gladly. So the ideas
that I've been sharing with you today, the three
or four types of school, that's the main idea
of the book. I also discussed this idea of the
four dimensions of a school and similar to the
story of the four blind men that are touching
an elephant. Yes. And the one at the trunk saying
an elephant is like a snake and the one at the
leg is saying it's like a tree trunk and the
one at the body is saying it's like a wall. And
the one at the ear is saying, no, it's delicate
and thin like paper. That's what an elephant
is. Often in schools, we focus on one of the
four dimensions more than the others. And those
four dimensions are organizational, relational,
actionable, and personal. And I won't now get
into a giant explanation or articulation of the
ins and outs of all those four, but... It's another
really important tool because if you are someone
who cares and wants to contribute meaningfully
in schools, you're going to have to navigate
all four of those. And typically as educators,
we do one really well. We do two of them okay.
And there's one that's our blind spot or the
spot where most of our challenges emerge. So
it's another tool, the four dimensions alongside
the three types to give educators who really
want to contribute meaningfully. the capacity
to do so. And I guess in short, what my book
is really about is, I think all of us know educators
who got into schools wanting to make a difference
and showed up full of a lot of passion and then
lost it to some degree along the way. And there's
a strong start. And then at some point there's
a giant hiccup in the road. And some of that
is just our naive ideas getting burnt off and
separating fairy tales from reality for sure.
But typically there's another layer of it, which
gets into this idea of alignment or misalignment.
And what I hope that the book does is gives people
the tools to be able to name which of these three
environments they thrive in and give them tools
like the four dimensions then to pursue doing
that type well and helping educators who are
somewhere between frustrated. to disillusioned,
to burnt out, to prepared to leave education
completely, to give them pause for a moment,
maybe reframe the misalignment or struggles that
they've been feeling and help them to reclaim
which of these ways do they feel they contribute
meaningfully in schools and give them the tools
to move on that path as opposed to a path towards
the disillusionment. the not caring. And this
is where the title of my book came in, which
I'll give you the PG version, which is Schools
That Give an F. And I didn't choose this title
as like a clickbaity, get your attention title
with a swear word in it. I used it because I've
had conversations with hundreds of passionate
educators. And the phrase that has come up the
most when talking with them in private, away
from professional contexts, is the idea of passionate
educators being terrified of schools that don't
give an F. Places where people have checked out
and the people don't give an F. And so that was
the way that I wanted to frame this book is,
if that's our nightmare, if that's what we want
to stay away from, how do we build its opposite?
How do we create schools that do give an F, where
people are contributing meaningfully? to separate
these three paths you can go on to get there
and to know which path you should be on. So that's
the book. Very excited for it. It's a combination
of these tools along with some stories and a
lot of very practical things to turn all this
theory into actionable things you can do in your
classroom or in your school, in your next interview
even. And yeah, the work that I'm doing with
Brendan, that's been the engine that has supported
this book. I say... I'm the one who sat down
and typed these words into the Word document
to make the book. But these ideas have come through
the work of Brendan O 'Leary and I on our podcast
over the last six years, where we've just teased
apart in great detail the subtle differences
between these three types. And along the way,
we've been able to have conversations with inspiring
educators, including yourself, Joey, where...
We want to talk to people who do care, who do
give an F and are contributing in meaningful
ways in education. And we'll also see a link
to, I believe it's episode seven, to Reinventing
Ed on the podcast, which also goes into excellent
detail on distinguishing the expert coach and
counselor roles that we can listen to for additional
context as well. I believe we did an updated
version, which is episode 124, I believe. Perfect.
I'm looking forward to that. And is there anything
in our conversation that we haven't targeted
on yet that we wanted to speak about today? Or
anything you wanted to leave our listeners with?
I don't think there's anything that we didn't
address, but I guess just as a closing thought,
I think if you're an educator who really cares,
that's a very special thing. And I think it's
a natural arc. in the life of a teacher to have
a strong start and at somewhere things drop off.
And just as you rose and then had some kind of
a drop off, I think the idea of renewal is possible.
And you might not go back to the state you were
in when you started your career, but I think
there is, I hate to sound too cliche, but the
phoenix arising from the ashes. phase of our
career that we can have. And we often don't hear
about that. We hear about the jaded, frustrated,
putting in their time phase of educators. And
I don't think that that's a destiny. And what
I really hope for this work and for this book,
and the reason I'm so excited to talk with people
like you, Joey, is just to spread these ideas
because I myself went through that. I went from
feeling like I really was doing my dream job
to... being in a nightmare when I switched schools
and found myself in a misaligned experience.
And I was able to get out of it, not by any help
from the system. So when I stopped caring, I
realized there wasn't a role in the system to
bring you back from that. So I talked to my head
of school. They basically said, hey, do you want
the paperwork to quit? Talk to the union. It
was like, hey, do you want to leave? talked to
the wellness committee. It was like, well, here
are some sleep tips and ways to ensure that you're
doing well. And I realized that we're really
missing this role in the school system to support
educators who care, but hit this road bump at
some point. And until we have those people, and
until I get to be that person in the school system,
I'm really hoping that this book and the work
that we're doing. serves to fill that void right
now, and I hope helps educators who find themselves
in that frustrated phase of their career to gain
the clarification they need and the momentum
that they need to move back to a place of feeling
like they are contributing meaningfully. Wonderful.
Thank you so much for that. Because my own personal
conclusion is that when it comes to analyzing
how disillusionment works within academia, it
doesn't necessarily dissipate from a gradual
state of improvement. But instead, I found it
to be just this ongoing cycle that really just
oscillates back and forth from feet to helplessness
throughout an academic's entire career as they
start to build and grow into their own identities,
one experience at a time. Yeah. Well, you're
at the risk now of having me go on like a four
-hour fireside chat with you about personal development
alongside professional development. But yes,
I'm fully with you on that. We'll need to have
a whole separate conversation just for that.
I'll start with that line and then we'll go from
there again. That'll be our take two. I'm so
excited. Excellent. Well, Rob, thank you so much
again for sharing your wisdom and your calm,
grounded approach to reimagining what's possible
in education. Because for our teachers and listeners
who are navigating their classrooms and trying
to build something meaningful, it's powerful
to hear that there is a roadmap for change and
that we don't have to focus on these obsolete
and outdated systems in order to help each other
make a difference. We'll link the Reinventing
Education podcast in our show notes so our listeners
can dive deeper. And until then, just keep making.
sure that you discover your role as you continue
to build your own identity. Thanks for joining
us. Thank you for joining us on the Classroom
Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. If
today's episode inspired you or made you think
differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop
a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts
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Remember, together we can transform our scars
into stars in education. one conversation at
a time.