1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,600 Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast, the space where education meets resilience. 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:14,880 I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode, we dive deep into the personal stories of educators, students, leaders, 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:20,520 and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities within modern education. 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Whether you're just starting your teaching journey or are a seasoned professional looking for inspiration, 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:33,280 we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, and build trauma-informed communities within our schools. 6 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,680 Now, let's take a seat at the front of the classroom as we get started. 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:43,360 Welcome back to the Classroom Narratives Podcast, where today I'm joined by Bonnie Fox and InnaRae Guy. 8 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,480 Bonnie Fox is an adjunct instructor of composition at Southern New Hampshire University, 9 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,400 and also supports the dean as the department's academic partner. 10 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,840 She's been teaching writing since 2004, starting as a tutor for middle school and high school students, 11 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,640 and then moving into college-level instruction. 12 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,440 Bonnie lives with her family on a small farm in Florida, where she homeschools her children, 13 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:10,640 gardens badly, and raises chicken, cows, and a very vocal pig. 14 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:18,800 InnaRae Guy is an adjunct instructor of composition and facilitator for adjunct instructor training programs at Southern New Hampshire University. 15 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:24,400 InnaRae has enjoyed teaching students in secondary and higher education for over 25 years. 16 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:30,240 Additionally, as a singer, songwriter, and poet, her work empowers the human spirit, 17 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:36,960 encouraging listeners to honor the inward journey home, discover a unique light within our ancestors and ourselves, 18 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:41,760 and, when called upon, use it to transform our respective environment for the better. 19 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,760 Both in the classroom and through writing essays, poetry, and songs, 20 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:52,560 she makes use of her own challenges on the healing path to help others, living out the famous quote by Jerry Cantrell, 21 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,760 "part of the healing process is sharing with other people who care". 22 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,640 And personally, I wanted to invite both my colleagues, Bonnie Fox and InnaRae Guy, into the conversation with me, 23 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,120 because I, too, am an instructor through Southern New Hampshire University, 24 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,480 and while today's conversation is completely unaffiliated with our school, 25 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:19,520 it is so awesome to actually have three online instructors from throughout the country here together to join us on Zoom. 26 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,720 And I also did my master's through Southern New Hampshire University, 27 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,920 and I can say that this is the first time that I've actually had instructors sitting in front of me in 2D 28 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:32,960 and actually in real time to have a conversation. So Bonnie and InnaRae, welcome to the both of you. 29 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,040 Thank you. Thank you, Joey. So glad to have you all both. 30 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,760 And did you reach want to say a little something as well just so the audience can distinguish your voices? 31 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,520 This is Bonnie Fox. This is InnaRae Guy. Welcome again. 32 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:53,360 So Bonnie and InnaRae, this is also my first panel conversation, so this is really exciting. 33 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:59,120 Normally I do one on one, so to have a panel is really, really cool. I'm very excited for this as well. 34 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:05,200 So to start our conversation, we are both online instructors in some capacity here, 35 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,160 and I'm thinking about the different types of students that we meet in our online classes. 36 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:16,240 So for example, at Southern New Hampshire, we typically have a pretty diverse population of 37 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,400 English language learners. We have online students who are returning back to school. 38 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,280 Some are even discharged military. Some are raising families. 39 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:31,200 And we have a very, very vast and ever-growing community of students who are joining to be a 40 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,600 part of our programs and classes. So I want to start by asking today, 41 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,160 what kind of work have each of you done in your professional journeys to support diverse learners 42 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:46,640 and trying to shape that trauma-informed teaching significantly for EFL students and returning to 43 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:53,600 the classroom with students? Well, in my case, I kind of ended up in this space a little just 44 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,480 by the way life sometimes presents you with unexpected journeys. We were living out of the 45 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,520 country for a while, so I had limitations on the kind of work I was allowed to do, but I was able 46 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:10,800 to do some extensive tutoring. And when I posted the job availability that I'm here to help people 47 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:16,880 with writing, I received information from a lot of EFL learners that were in Canada at the time 48 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,000 saying they just wanted to do better in their classes with their writing. But as I went through 49 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:29,040 this, I was increasingly humbled by the stories that they were telling me about their experiences. 50 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:35,280 I think there's a temptation when people come from other countries to English-speaking countries, 51 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:41,600 there's a mindset that they should be always grateful for everything. But I think that it 52 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:47,040 takes away from what is often a very disorienting experience for them, especially if they're coming 53 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,600 from a language background where they may have known very little English and now they're trying 54 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:58,080 to in the higher ed space, trying to finish a degree or complete a degree. That in itself is 55 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:03,680 difficult and they may be bringing with them any number of challenges from their own background. 56 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:10,240 I had one student who was from China and she spoke about how it was very, very sad for her 57 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:16,800 to have been at the top of her class and now she could barely pass. And she knew it wasn't about 58 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,960 her intelligence, she knew it wasn't about anything other than that she just was having a very 59 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:28,320 difficult time navigating these complex ideas in a language that was really unfamiliar to her. So, 60 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,920 I mean, that in itself is a kind of trauma that I don't think should just be dismissed because you 61 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,400 should say, "well, you should be grateful now for being here". She was grateful to be there, but it 62 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,440 didn't take away from that personal challenge, which was impacting her ability to learn and her 63 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:49,840 desire to continue. So my role, which was very small in its own way, was just when she would send 64 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:55,040 me something, I would help understand what it was she was trying to convey so that it could be placed 65 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:00,240 in the conventional style that would be appropriate for that particular assignment or that discipline 66 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,600 while still respecting her own words and ideas and what she was really understanding what it was she 67 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,400 was trying to say, because she had a knowledge of whatever these topics were that I didn't have. I 68 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:16,480 just needed to help frame it such that she could submit it for the score she deserved to have based 69 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:22,160 on her knowledge. I kind of ended up encountering students with these stories that had a lot of 70 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:28,160 trauma because of, again, the very disorienting nature of coming to a new place where so much of 71 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,640 your background is now taken away from you, not intentionally, but just because you've kind of had 72 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:37,600 to leave it behind, but it's still part of who you are. And trying to strip that away from yourself 73 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:43,280 is deeply traumatic, but it's just being there, letting them tell me what they wanted to share 74 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:48,800 and helping them so that they can empower themselves, continue moving forward and feel 75 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,600 better about themselves because it really is, it makes a big difference. 76 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:59,280 Thank you so much for sharing that, Bonnie. To piggyback off of what you were just talking about, 77 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:05,760 it brought to mind my first experience teaching high school, which is how I ended up in a situation 78 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:13,360 where trauma-informed practices had to be developed on my part. I had always had a desire 79 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:19,360 to do trauma-informed, having come out of the inner city and realizing that there was some 80 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:26,720 suffering that I could give back, but I did not end up in an inner city school. When I first got 81 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:32,560 hired, I ended up in an affluent, predominantly white district where I'm thinking, I probably 82 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,440 don't run into any trauma because there's a thought in the conversation of trauma-informed 83 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:44,160 diversity that somehow white people who are affluent aren't experiencing any trauma. And 84 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:51,680 that's just not true. But in any case, when I started working, my second nature was to depend 85 00:07:51,680 --> 00:08:00,000 on my own trauma and reflect back and say, "okay, what did I need as a kid?" And then I would try to 86 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:05,920 implement some of that. To Bonnie's point, I did teach writing lab. They put me in a writing lab 87 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:12,240 course twice a day. It was part of my schedule. And they put all of the students from Taiwan, 88 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:18,000 China. They could not speak English. Mexico, wherever they came in, they were in the writing 89 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,640 lab. And I love, Bonnie, that you talk about how just learning about their life experiences 90 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:30,000 helps. I was actually pretty interested because sometimes they told traumatic stories of why they 91 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,920 had to come to America in the first place. And other times they would share happy stories about 92 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:41,920 how they're feeling before and how school was over there. I learned that we were way more lenient in 93 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:49,040 understanding as teachers in America than some of the teachers they had over there. But I started 94 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:56,800 to address their need to feel like they were succeeding because there was apparently some 95 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:02,640 shame that came with the fact that they had to go to writing lab in the first place. And that 96 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:09,680 added to some of the trauma they were having in the academic space. So a lot of the assignments 97 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:17,200 I was allowed to do with them was to have them write the stories that they were telling me. So 98 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:24,240 telling me about your classroom, okay, well, your paragraph today is going to be about what happened 99 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:29,280 when you were in first grade. And I decided to differentiate. And I realized differentiation is 100 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:35,520 key to helping address classrooms from a trauma-informed perspective. That first I 101 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,960 was implementing what one would call the golden rule, like referencing my own trauma and thinking 102 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,800 I'm going to treat others as they would treat me. There's this new word going around. I hope you 103 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:51,440 heard about it, but a new phrase, which you're calling the platinum rule. So I'm working, I've 104 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:59,920 recently started to really reference the platinum rule in my mind beforehand because applying the 105 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:06,800 platinum rule is, it takes it one step further from treating others the way you want to be treated 106 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:15,920 and basically treating others the way they want to be treated. And of course, as a instructor of 107 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:23,840 children, secondary ed, and college-aged adults alike, the only way to treat someone the way they 108 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:30,480 want to be treated is to learn from them first. Thank you for sharing all of those points. And 109 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:38,320 I'm thinking about here from Bonnie's conversation as to how we do, yes, tend to see this idea of 110 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:44,240 gaslighting secondary English language learners in some respects. We make them think that they 111 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:51,600 should be grateful to be in a program where they really are not equipped up front with the tools 112 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:58,160 to help them fully succeed. And then we make it become their problem when they're not up to the 113 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,720 same speed as their classmates. And then it begins to have them carry this baggage along with it. 114 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:08,000 There's a lot of baggage that goes with that type of trauma as well. And there's a lot of literature 115 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,960 that exists. Some of my favorites include, if anyone has ever read Push by Sapphire, there's 116 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,240 also a lot of international stories as well that just talked about the presence of the teacher 117 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:24,560 that implements learning as either a tool of pain or learning that can be a tool for healing. 118 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:29,200 And that's a bit of a, not to sound cliche, but a double-edged sword that we deal with in education 119 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:35,280 as writing professors, that we do have those two ends of how we instruct that could be either 120 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,960 trauma triggering or trauma informing. And sometimes we do it without being deliberate about it. 121 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,800 And so with InnaRae as well, I'm so glad you mentioned the platinum phrase, which is treat 122 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,920 others how they want to be treated, because we're going to be listening to the segment in March. But 123 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:58,000 in April, I just recorded a segment with Rob Durant, who is a marketing and sales professional. 124 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,520 And we'll talk about how that rule applies to students and educators as well within academic 125 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,080 settings. So I'm encouraging our audience to stick around for that conversation as well to see how 126 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:15,520 that phrase helps us as educators. So my first classroom as well was also in a white and affluent 127 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:21,040 district. And I was teaching eighth grade Cambridge, eighth grade gifted. And one thing that also 128 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:27,440 surprised me, because just like in array, I too had the mentality that the group that I was with 129 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:34,560 would probably be better off than other areas that may have had less goods and services provided to 130 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:41,120 them. But I realized that what this group is dealing with, when I did physically ask them to 131 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,960 share their trauma in a way that looking back could have been trauma triggering rather than 132 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:51,200 triggering rather than trauma informing, they had a whole different avenue of experiences that they 133 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,720 are navigating, especially when it came to "the competition" that they were working 134 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,440 through in order to make sure that they met their graduation needs. And the mental health crisis, 135 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:08,960 the burnout rate amongst these 14 year olds was so painful to witness that I felt like I had to say 136 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:14,720 something to my leadership. And unfortunately, my suspicions were proven when leadership's answer 137 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,920 was, "don't worry about it. It's all about the numbers", the trauma that these students were 138 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:26,400 feeling, because they recognize they were being reduced to numbers, I thought was a whole different 139 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:32,320 kind of avenue that other districts and areas are less focused in, because they just want to see those 140 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,920 students survive to the end of that school day. Yeah, if you don't mind me popping in on that. 141 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:43,440 It's very triggering what you just said for me. And I don't know if I shared this with Bonnie, 142 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,920 we've done we had a few conversations. Thank you, Bonnie. I'm so glad you're here. 143 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:55,120 I lost a student. I just you don't forget the students lose. And she had everything, 144 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,800 you know, the big house, the money. And, you know, there is this assumption that they're not 145 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:06,880 suffering. And what she was suffering with was depression. And I did everything I could even down 146 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,440 to homeschooling. When they pulled her out, they asked me to come in and try and help her through 147 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:17,840 her assignments. And we would talk and in three years, we lost her. There was just nothing I can 148 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,280 do. And so the suicide rate, which is what he likes to talk about is high. What's one thing to, 149 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,640 you know, it's all over the news about, you know, shootings or what have you certain areas that 150 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:35,040 people, you know, feeling or oh my god, but what's happening is just if a student cannot decide that 151 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:41,600 there's another way, because they're so inundated with this is the path you're supposed to take, 152 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:47,680 that is just as violent, and just as traumatic. So I just wanted to share that personally, I do have 153 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:53,680 a student that I lost in an area that really taught me a whole lot about just assuming that 154 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,120 everybody's fine because their material needs it that. So thank you for saying that. 155 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:05,520 Absolutely. Thank you InnaRae, and I resonate because I lost a very close friend to suicide 156 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:11,040 months before my when I say months, I mean, like 90 days before my first time ever being a classroom 157 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:17,760 teacher, and plaguing myself into, I guess, the gaslighting, like, how could I have not been the 158 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:23,680 one to see the signs really led me to want to be that trauma informed teacher that first year. 159 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:30,480 And when students would come to me and excavate their deepest emotional circumstances, knowing 160 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,760 that I was a mandatory reporter, when they would come to me and say, we know that you're listening, 161 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:42,080 even when the social worker will not, it brings me or any educator into that position where Pandora's 162 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:48,160 Box is open. And at that point, you, you don't know how to put it away, even when leadership 163 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:54,240 threatens you practically for trying to get that content from the students in the way that you 164 00:15:54,240 --> 00:16:01,360 hope will help them as a mandatory reporter. Yet, nevertheless, there's still in the students 165 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:08,000 knowing that they're pleased for help will fall on the deaf ears because even though, like we said, 166 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:14,320 their physical needs are met, their emotional circumstances are drowning, that alone only 167 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,560 continues to trigger and escalate what they're going through. How can we help students when 168 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:23,920 they reach that type of circumstance and crisis? This is so challenging because of course, 169 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:30,240 we have to see this from the lens of being educators. But obviously, I know we've talked 170 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:37,760 about this. I am not a professional therapist. I'm not, I don't have the credentials to provide 171 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:43,040 therapy. So it's a very fine line. But on the other hand, if someone comes to you with just 172 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,920 heartbreaking depression or whatever it happens to be, particularly these young people, and what 173 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:55,760 InnaRae said, it is just as violent, it's psychological violence to place these sort of expectations on 174 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:01,360 young people. They don't know how to handle it. They just need someone to listen. I know that 175 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:06,960 sometimes over the years, I've had students tell me things. Sometimes it's overwhelming 176 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,760 because you think this is a lot for me to take on. But on the other hand, they're coming to the 177 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,200 person they know will listen. And if I'm not going to be the person that listens, there may not be 178 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,680 anyone. And I kind of I go through life feeling like you never know when you're going to be in a 179 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:27,040 position to be a second chance or someone's last chance. And it's not to put credit on me, 180 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:32,240 it's to say, you don't know. You may be in that moment for a reason, and it may literally save 181 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:38,640 this person. So just putting aside whatever I may be going through, the compassion, fatigue, 182 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,920 we've been through that before. But on the other hand, what's the worst thing? I have to be 183 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:47,600 compassionate for another few minutes, but it may change this person's life. It may save this 184 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:53,440 person's life. I don't come from a particularly affluent background, but I did attend for elementary 185 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,560 and first couple of years of middle school, I attended a small private school. And I probably 186 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,920 took it more seriously than I should have. I was a very serious kid. I wanted to get perfect grades. 187 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,600 And a while back, my parents visited and they brought all my old report cards and they were 188 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:14,880 so proud to show me all these old report cards. And I started reading through them and I had to 189 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:21,680 walk away and cry. And remember, every single report card said the same thing. She's so well 190 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:27,520 behaved, she's so accommodating, she does everything she's told, she doesn't miss anything. And it's 191 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:35,760 like, I remember being so stressed out as a child. On the surface, I was the kid that was the great 192 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,600 kid. But I remember my parents got to the point where they couldn't afford the school anymore 193 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:45,840 and took us out and started homeschooling us. And over that summer, my hair grew like six inches. 194 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:53,040 Just walking away from this stressful environment probably saved me in its own way. And it wasn't 195 00:18:53,040 --> 00:19:00,240 even like intentional, but I remember that on the surface, everything was great for me. But I look 196 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:06,000 back and I know I was really stressed out, unhappy child. So these kids where everything looks fine 197 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,480 or seems like it should be fine, or someone tells you, I grew up in the suck it up generation where 198 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,600 we were told just get over it. And I have to tell you, I'm pretty sure in the entire history of 199 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,480 humanity, telling someone to suck it up has never yielded the desired outcome. It doesn't work. 200 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:26,400 It just causes repression and frustration. And I have found that there is something kind of 201 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,120 therapeutic for me too. When people come to me and I don't feel like I have to tell them that, 202 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:35,920 I tell them, it's okay. It's okay to feel frustrated. It's okay to talk to me. I can listen. 203 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,560 That kind of releases something inside me too. Like we don't have to perpetuate this very toxic 204 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:48,080 mindset of telling people everything should be fine. There's no meter for trauma. Everyone's trauma 205 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,760 matters. If it impacted them, it matters. And if we create like a system of, well, 206 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,280 your trauma isn't as important because someone else has a worse situation than you do. 207 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,880 We have not helped anyone. So yes, a student may come to me and I might think, well, I've heard 208 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,520 much worse stories than that, but I don't have the right to tell them. It doesn't matter. If it 209 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:14,080 matters to them, it matters. And if they need to come and tell me, then I can be honored that they 210 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:19,680 trust me with that information and that they believe I will care enough to make some, take 211 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,800 some kind of action or make some kind of, provide some kind of opportunity that will help them. I 212 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,520 don't want to be the person that rejects them because again, I don't know if I just, that was 213 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:35,520 their last chance. I'm also thinking about when we speak about that element of being trauma informed 214 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,560 in the classroom. So my question is when we're working with the online space, how can we continue 215 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,760 to help students find their voices through writing and continue to be that element of 216 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:52,800 empowerment in the online space? Yeah. Oh my gosh, Bonnie, thanks so much for sharing that. 217 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,360 As much as we talk, I didn't even know that part of your story. So it's great, like constantly 218 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:02,880 learning about other people and what they've been through in life. And I just totally love what 219 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,640 you're talking about this. I grew up also and that suck it up and get over it. And, you know, 220 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,680 basically we were emotionally neglected. I think this is an ongoing joke with Gen X and early 221 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:20,640 millennials. Like we were just kind of like finding our way by ourselves. I think somewhere in how 222 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:26,320 maybe we're raising our children now, that later millennials, Gen Zers, we're giving them that 223 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,280 space. And so they're learning their language at a younger age. They're speaking up at a younger 224 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:37,120 age. I could see it, you know, as they come into the classroom and Joey, the question about the 225 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:43,920 online, I feel like Bonnie did answer it and just be kind because we have so many opportunities to 226 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:50,800 give them feedback through our own writing. So in the discussion boards, when they first start out 227 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:56,240 that first week, they're already writing. They're already sharing through writing. And of course, 228 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,440 we're composition instructors, right? We know what's happening. And we get a chance to respond in the 229 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:07,440 discussion board, be kind in the discussion board. If you have to email someone back, be kind when 230 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:13,360 you email them back. If they got an assignment in late and you have to give feedback about that, 231 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:18,320 given the platinum rule, which tells us to treat people the way they want to be treated, you don't 232 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:25,600 know why the assignment is late. So ask a question first. Then when you learn about them, you could 233 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:32,960 say, okay, if I had two sick children with RSV and one was in the hospital for the last week, 234 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:39,840 how then would I want someone to write me back? So I believe those are the many, many opportunities 235 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:46,480 that we have to just deal with the trauma in a safe way, because we are not therapists and we 236 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:53,760 don't want to dig in too deep and wind up giving someone advice that can worsen their dilemma. 237 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:59,760 I think in a lot, most cases, that's enough to get them over the hump. And if they have to find, 238 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:05,040 outside help for their situation, what have you, it helps them go forward and get what they need 239 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,960 without feeling like they have to involve the professor in a way that's out of our scope of 240 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,760 understanding or professional expertise. In the way, and Bonnie, when you had your 241 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:21,200 conversation a little earlier last year through this new podcast, you were talking about this idea 242 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,480 of the students connecting with their teachers with us playing the role of the local parentis. 243 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,560 And I'll give a little quick story as well. So when I was in high school, I was from the generation 244 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:36,080 of helicopter parents where I would come home and until I reached algebra, where she no longer could 245 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,920 because she's a journalism major for crying out loud, my mom would sit at the table and try and 246 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,160 do our math homework with us. And then my dad would step in and do the science homework with us 247 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,200 because he used to work in like pharmacy and big pharma. And he knew that side of the industry. 248 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,200 And I would typically be on my own with English and history because I could actually do it by 249 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:59,280 myself and I was good at it. So when I went to my first interview at my alma mater city, 250 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,040 like Parkland, when I went back to interview with the Parkland schools, the first question they 251 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:08,080 asked is, "okay, let's talk about parents. We have what we call here the PP, the Parkland parents. 252 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:15,040 Are you familiar with how they work?" And I said, "I was raised by two of them. NEXT!" So this generation 253 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:21,360 of helicopter parents was what I came from. And I remember I was with my mentor. His name was Dr. 254 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:26,080 Mendelson. I hope that we can get him on the show at some point as well. Dr. Mendelson sat with me 255 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,960 when we were getting our course cards for our junior year. He was my freshman history teacher. 256 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,000 Here I am into sophomore year. He's known me since first period, first day of freshman year. 257 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,880 And I went to him to ask what courses I should take for my freshman year. And he said, 258 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,160 to ask what courses I should take for my junior year. And I said to him, "Dr. Mendelson, I want 259 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:54,720 to take AP this and AP that and AP the other thing." And he looks at me with my little notebook on my 260 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,680 table, like my little agenda. And he had me do something that actually made me feel very 261 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,080 emotionally upset. Like I think I started crying when he told me to do this. He said, "I want you 262 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:10,480 to take your agenda and I want you to throw it into my trash can." How do you tell someone with OCD 263 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:16,160 to throw their agenda in the trash can? Bonnie's laughing like, no, you don't do that. But 264 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:23,200 when I did that, my twin brother was with me as well. I'm also a twin. He said to me, 265 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,640 "forget about what's on your agenda because all your agenda says is test here, quiz there, 266 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,760 paper there, project here." He says, "when's the last time you've actually done something with 267 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,840 your twin? When's the last time you two have actually gone to dinner together or even taken 268 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:44,480 a walk together?" And my twin and I looked at each other and we're like, "probably never." 269 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:53,120 Probably never. And he says, "instead of picking out your courses, he says, you want to take AP 270 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:59,120 lang? Great. Go do it and good luck." But he says, "until you sign up for AP this and AP that, 271 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:06,080 you're 16 years old. When you turn 18, your dynamics are not going to be the same." He says, 272 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:13,040 "take your agenda back and I need you to schedule in time to be that twin brother, be that son, 273 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:19,440 be that friend because I can see by the schedule you have and the schedule you want that you do not 274 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:26,080 provide yourself time to do any of that." And that was a trauma in itself to come to that realization. 275 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,400 What made it even more traumatic is that I didn't listen to him. And then when I got to my senior 276 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:39,360 year, I was again, well, another podcast to talk about this, but I was so emotionally drained. 277 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:46,240 It made me realize that I should be that person to help students, but why am I that person to help 278 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:51,120 students? When my own students come to me and say, "Oh, Mr. Weisler, I have this and that. And the 279 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:58,720 other thing" it's like, I look at them and I see them. I acknowledge them. But I also think about, "why me?" 280 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,000 like, "why am I the one that they're coming to, to talk about those conversations?" So I wanted to 281 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,840 hear a little bit more about our take on the role of local parentis as teachers. Why us? 282 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,080 How many of us have ever had those imposter moments as the teacher? I certainly almost every 283 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:20,080 day walk into a classroom. I think, "why me?" Like, "how am I the one up here in this classroom talking 284 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,920 about composition right now at this time in the space?" Like, "why me?" And how do we deal with that 285 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,200 imposter syndrome, especially in the face of being told about other students' traumas? 286 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,520 I remember one of my first, it was my first teaching job in college. It was at a community 287 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:46,400 college in Michigan. And we were, it's basically, this was right after the economic situation 288 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,600 changed in the Detroit area. So a lot of people that had had these great jobs did not have these 289 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:57,440 jobs anymore. And a lot of them were going back to school. So there I was in my 20s, you know, with 290 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,840 my cozy life and my master's degree. And there are these people, some of them twice my age, who are 291 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:10,000 having to come back to school. And it was really, really humbling because I felt kind of ridiculous 292 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,200 at times. Like they knew more than I could possibly have known. It was in a very different context. 293 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,840 But what did I know? I knew a lot of academic stuff. I knew how to teach writing and literature. And 294 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:26,560 I knew about all of that. So I realized I wasn't going to sell very well as the serious professor. 295 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,000 So pretty much from that point, and even when I taught in, because there were multiple branches 296 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,800 of this college, even when I taught in the branch that was more traditional young people, just taking 297 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:42,080 community college classes right out of high school, I decided that the best approach for me was to be 298 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:49,600 not like professor, but just think of myself as a facilitator. I happened to have a knowledge base 299 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:55,600 that you need in order to continue your education so you can accomplish your goals. This is not the 300 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,320 only class you're taking. I don't have to treat it like the most important thing you'll ever do. 301 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,520 I just need to provide you with these skills and help you along the way, because there is a much 302 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,720 bigger picture of what they're trying to do. So placing myself in that space of being more of a 303 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:17,600 facilitator of learning, and just transferring the knowledge that I have to them, I think that's been 304 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,680 a more successful approach. I think it means that the students are more likely to feel like they can 305 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:29,280 come to me. It's not like a business thing, but you know, if they have something come up and 306 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,840 they can't get something in on time, they know that I'm not going to wrap their knuckles, 307 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,440 because I haven't behaved that way in the classroom. They can talk to me like an adult, 308 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:42,080 and I can talk to them like an adult, and I can say, sure, if you need an extra day, that's fine. 309 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,040 I have no problem with that. Thank you for telling me. I also understand that sometimes for a lot of 310 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,080 them, it was hard for them to come to me because I was a lot younger, and that was a very strange 311 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,360 dynamic. So I also respected if they were just prepared to take the hit on their grade, because 312 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:03,520 they were not comfortable, but I wanted to be available to the ones that did want to talk to me. 313 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,560 In the online space, it is a little bit different, because we're always having to kind of project 314 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:14,560 ourselves in a friendly way that they can't see you standing there smiling at them with a happy tone. 315 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:21,840 So I do think I come across as a lot perkier and bubblier than I actually am as a human being. 316 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,800 There's a lot of exclamation points in my writing, especially in that first week. 317 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,760 Or if they know that I really am friendly, like how do I give out the bat signal that I'm friendly, 318 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,480 and I'm helpful, and I'm encouraging, and I want you to talk to me. I think you have to do it with 319 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,760 the slightly, you overshoot the tone a little, and you also listen to them. You know, students like 320 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:52,480 InnaRae has said that that first week discussion is critical, because they tell you or don't tell you 321 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,600 so much about themselves, sometimes by not saying things. The ones that don't tell you really 322 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,160 anything about their backgrounds, the ones that maybe don't share a degree, sometimes they just 323 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,000 forgot or they were busy and they just wrote it up really fast, but sometimes they're just not 324 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,960 comfortable sharing. I pay attention to that because I think it matters. This is a very different 325 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,280 space to have to share about yourself, and not everyone has figured out what their comfort level 326 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:21,120 is in what is sometimes their very first college class. So I always try to draw something out 327 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,160 that they say, something interesting that they mentioned. If it's possible, compliment the way 328 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,920 they describe something. If they tell me where they're from, I often look it up, not to be weird, 329 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,920 or you know, like I'm going to find out where you live. No, I look it up because it might be like, 330 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,840 oh, it looks beautiful, like some really cool outdoor activities. I'll bet it's great that 331 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,520 something, if they volunteered information, I try to find something that will engage 332 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,760 and let them know I'm paying attention and I care and that they can talk to me 333 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:54,400 and that I'm there to facilitate, not be the scary professor. And funny enough, like when I took my 334 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,360 masters, if a professor would introduce themselves with peer, not to sound petty, but I think it's 335 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,600 validating with how our students think. If a professor introduced themselves or responded to 336 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:09,360 me in my intro with periods, that would indicate to me how much or how little I should share. 337 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,840 If they responded with explanation points, then I would know I would be a lot more comfortable 338 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:20,480 in communicating with that professor. Yes, I love that. So extra evidence like Bonnie, 339 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,160 you've discussed overkill with the kindness, the exclamation points, the emojis to give them a sense 340 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:33,760 that it's a safe space to share and express their feeling. And from there, I think we're both then 341 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:40,960 in a position to grow together throughout the term. Yeah, I think that one thing that we should do as 342 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:46,800 educators is to just pick and choose our battles and avoid the ones that hinder a student who is 343 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:52,160 at least trying to be successful. And when we speak about the superhero narrative, well, 344 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:58,560 so I just defended my dissertation in December that talks a lot about that. And that phrase, 345 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:04,480 superhero, superhero, superhero is actually peppered pretty frequently throughout the 300 page project. 346 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,640 And I just heard from my advisor last week, because we're going to publish this by May, 347 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,040 this entire dissertation, he says, I have one make a suggestion that I really would like to see. 348 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,600 He says, the superhero narrative from the educator standpoint sounds like a suicide mission. 349 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:25,680 And I want that to be eliminated and switched out to say caregiver, because that's a much more 350 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:32,320 tangible approach as to what the educator is, their caregivers. And I'm really excited for this 351 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,560 because I just reached out to a lot of my former middle school students who are all in college now, 352 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,560 even some of my current college students who are, when I taught them for freshmen now, they're 353 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,440 seniors and even graduated, I reached out to about 10 of them this past week. And we're going to try 354 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,240 and arrange a panel in May for the podcast, the last one in the spring 2025 season. And I'm going 355 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:56,400 to ask them this question that we're talking about now is when did education set you up to believe in 356 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:02,240 the superhero narrative? And as your teacher, how did I prove it or detangle it? Because I can tell 357 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,840 you for those students that had me in my first year after the shooting, I was not a superhero. 358 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,960 Like I was just trying to get myself through the day, even though I was there, I acknowledged them, 359 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,680 they apparently saw me as a savior because I told them I am here to help you through your crises. 360 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:24,320 And they believed me and they would come to me and give me all of their personal emotional trauma 361 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:30,560 that again only fed into my imposter syndrome. I sit here and I think, because as a student, 362 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,320 when I was, you know, in early 2000s when I was in the classroom as a student, 363 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:41,120 there was something that happened pretty standard across the whole board for 13 years. 364 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:46,080 That did make me believe that my teachers were always okay, always had it together, 365 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,600 and were superheroes. And my favorite teacher, my eighth grade Spanish teacher, my twin brother and 366 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,400 I had it together. We sat right next to each other for the whole year. The best of the best, love her 367 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:03,920 so much. And when I worked alongside her, my very first ever classroom was right next door to hers. 368 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,560 And when I heard her teach throughout the day, like she would see me be the best teacher in the 369 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,400 world. She would see me with my eyes so red, like I was about to burst out crying every day after my 370 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,760 first period. She'd just say, relax, relax, relax. And I finally said, I said, profesora, how do you, 371 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,280 how did you do it? Because you come in, you're like explanation point, explanation point, 372 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,160 explanation point, and you're always so much fun. And here we are 15 years later, and I remember 373 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,760 like every day of your class. How do you do it? And she looked at me and she said, honestly, 374 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:45,840 I don't. It just, it's how it is. It's how you see it. It's not how I see it. It's how you see it. 375 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,400 And you'll find the people that will celebrate you on campus. She says, find the people that 376 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,120 will celebrate you because the ones who won't will still be here in some capacity. 377 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:02,400 And I'm sitting here wondering, because again, I think I had 28 teachers a year for high school, 378 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,760 plus 18, 40. Let's say we had about 47 teachers, approximately between K through 12. 379 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:14,400 About 47 teachers always made things look like they were A-OK, well aligned and perfect. And I 380 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,360 did not feel like I was that way at all as an educator, not at all. But my students thought 381 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:26,080 I was still that way. How and when do you think we set up that superhero narrative at the student 382 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:32,320 level to the point that we're held to those high expectations that we're not going to be able to 383 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:41,680 that lead us to become a local parentis figure? I honestly think it's set up. Society is constantly 384 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:51,120 coming up with the one person that's the best, the best golf player and then luring people into 385 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:58,720 trying to be the next Tiger Woods. It draws us away from community and draws us into a way of 386 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:05,840 being that's quite lonely, I think, trying to be number one with everything. Yeah, and I'm thinking 387 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:11,840 like when students see us as that superhero, I guess we're just socially constructed as the educator 388 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,200 to be that thought leader and figure of saving. And I'm curious, like, how can we 389 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,360 change that for our students or is it even necessary? Like, I think it would benefit us 390 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,280 to switch that narrative, but I just wonder if there's a way to actually make that happen. 391 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:32,880 I would agree with what InnaRae said about that need to like point to the one. There's a tendency 392 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:39,920 just within human nature to create our own idols. We admire success, but it's also extremely 393 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:45,680 unsustainable and really, really exhausting to try to be that. I don't think we change this 394 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:51,760 in one class, but we can start the pattern by not being that teacher. Just sometimes it's just being 395 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:58,160 honest. I'm doing the right challenge this term, which is a collaborative experience for students 396 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,720 in the liberal arts. And I was going through their drafts this week and I had to post something and 397 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:06,560 say, "I'm going to make every effort to have everything done by this day of the week, but I 398 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:12,480 got to be honest with you. We've got illness in the house. It just may not happen." I'm trying. 399 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,480 It's hard and a lot of our professors are working multiple jobs and it's hard and they're tired and 400 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:22,240 their students are tired. Just reminding everyone we can be human beings. Again, I go back to- 401 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:23,040 Be kind. 402 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:28,000 Yes, I know. I'm serious. I feel like this is my whole mantra. I'm not ever going to get a PhD with 403 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:35,120 this as my mantra, but seriously, be kind is such in the education space. It really is kind of a big 404 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:41,360 piece of it. You can't go into education if you don't care about people because education is about 405 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:46,240 people. And if you care about people, you have to care about the fact that people have lives and 406 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:51,840 challenges and personalities and very, very human realities that they're facing every day. 407 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,200 Yeah. I think that's a way, Joey, we're talking about trying to break down that superhero. 408 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,560 We can get more messages saying, it's okay, be vulnerable. 409 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,680 We may be superheroes in our content areas, but we're only caregivers in our human area. 410 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,480 And so as we start to come to a close to our conversation today, I'm thinking about 411 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,920 our conversation as a whole and I wanted to see if we can get takeaways from anybody and Bonnie 412 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:23,040 as well in terms of some best practices for welcoming voices into a classroom and maximizing 413 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:29,440 your learning outcomes while allowing both our students and course facilitators to have their 414 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:36,800 voices heard. One of the things I find interesting about teaching first year composition is that 415 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:42,560 unlike if I were in an upper level English course, most of my students are not English majors. 416 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,680 Most of them are going into different programs, I should say, so they have different interests. 417 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:53,280 So when they bring me their writing, I can't expect it all to sound the same because my students 418 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:58,240 that are going into computer science are not, I shouldn't be giving them feedback, oh, this could 419 00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:04,560 be more flowery. That is completely irrelevant to them and their future. So for me, just as 420 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,680 a composition instructor, paying attention to these different types of voices in writing, 421 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:14,400 not just on the personal level in the discussion forum, but also the fact that I am preparing them 422 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,560 for the type of writing they will be doing, I don't have to know all about it, but not everyone 423 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,680 has to write the same. I shouldn't grade based on a style that might be how I would write and you 424 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:30,240 get the students that come in and you think this is how I would write the paper, A plus, A plus, 425 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:35,600 A plus, you know, it's beautiful, but then you get the ones that are perfectly good papers. It's a 426 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:41,040 different style and a different voice, but the people that come into my class, I think they can't 427 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,600 write, are the ones that were never encouraged because they had an English teacher who told them 428 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:52,000 there's only one type of writing and one style. And that's unrealistic and that's unfair because 429 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,720 again, you're going to do writing in all these other fields, but it's not all going to sound the 430 00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:01,360 same. And that's been really humbling for me in the academic partner role because I meet monthly 431 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:07,040 with colleagues in different departments and I love asking these questions. I will sometimes just 432 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,920 when I can insert myself and say, tell me a little bit about writing in psychology, how's it different? 433 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,400 Because when my students say I'm in the psych program, I think, well, I can't expect them to 434 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,640 sound like an English major. I don't want them to sound that way. I want to like hear their voice 435 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,240 and again, it's very much in a formative stage because they're not experts yet, but when they 436 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:32,000 write a certain way that maybe doesn't sound like your standard English teacher essay kind of thing, 437 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:38,720 it's still good. It can still be just fine. There's a difference between writing that maybe could stand 438 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:45,120 to be improved and writing that's just a different sound. And I really, really try, I'm not great at 439 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,280 this. I'm always working on it, but I really do try to listen for those different styles and voices. 440 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,640 Exactly. No, I had to intervene for a second because that's where my imposter syndrome also 441 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,720 really comes in. And I tell this to my composition students all the time when I'm teaching it, 442 00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:04,480 especially in person, whenever we start the argumentation unit, I say, hey, I want you all 443 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,360 to know that I have no idea if I'm teaching you correctly and my imposter syndrome is going to be 444 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:15,680 really bad for the next like two weeks, most in part because we want there to be a standard way 445 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,000 to write, but because there's so many vast disciplines that can't be done, there can be a 446 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:26,240 there can be a standard rubric to evaluate that, but I do not believe in standard papers. 447 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,720 Actually had a student write to me yesterday and he said, is my paper on the right track? Is it good? 448 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:35,440 Can I see an example paper? And I'm like, I can't really answer that. I can give you feedback with 449 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,920 what you have, but quite frankly, I don't want your paper to sound like the example. I want you to 450 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:46,880 just take your ideas and make it something that you can grow with. The way I see my classes is that 451 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,520 if I feel like I'm benefiting from what the students are writing, then we've missed all the 452 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,640 outcomes. If they think that they're benefiting from what they're writing, then we've met the 453 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,840 objectives. And that's why I love having a vast array of what students are producing, because I 454 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:06,000 want them to feel like they can write something and remember it when they leave the class. That's how 455 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:13,680 we meet our objectives. Yeah. And that's that subtle nod to the platinum role, right? Yes. 456 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,280 Yes. I wanted to close out with two points. I feel like in our composition classes, 457 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:26,240 it's naturally built in. Like I keep saying that, but it's totally in composition classes. 458 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:34,640 What is often hard for students to say, even in their own lives, before they approach 459 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:42,640 a composition course, they start to learn in our courses that it's easier and more ready 460 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:50,480 for them to put on paper. I think we naturally are going to end up in this emotional healing 461 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:56,240 space territory. It's just a natural thing. It's like, oh, I'm writing. So all of a sudden it just 462 00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:59,920 starts coming out. I don't know if you've all had that experience when you first started writing, 463 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:06,080 but I did. Oh my gosh, look how this flows. And wow, let me start talking about how my mom got on 464 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:13,200 my nerves. We're all in academia, so I have to throw out there that there was a study. 465 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,800 We know it because we experienced it, but it's always happy to study, right? To back up what 466 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:27,840 we're saying. So there was a study done and it basically discovered that writing through 467 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:36,480 whatever they're experiencing, even if it's to meet the academic objective, increased resilience 468 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:44,160 in students, it decreased depressive symptoms in students, it decreased perceived stress, 469 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,840 right? Because that's talking about the superhero stuff. A lot of that's perception. 470 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:56,160 And it helps us as professors discover that there might be trauma. And so I think we're in a really 471 00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:05,680 good space there. And as far as continuing to build the culture, we can continue to allow the 472 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:14,160 space for some of that emotional writing and see ourselves as a part of a culture of people. 473 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:22,160 Even though I'm the facilitator and they're the students, together we are in a culture where 474 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:30,880 we're trying to grow together and work within a growth mindset and admit that we're both growing 475 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:37,280 and learning together all the time, like from the beginning of the term to the end. 476 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,840 And I'll just piggyback off what you said about the community of the classroom, because I think 477 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:47,120 this is another important thing we can model for students. Learning is not a fixed state. 478 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:53,440 Education is not fixed. As the facilitator, as the instructor in the class, I'm always learning too. 479 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,800 So when they say, well, I didn't know that, well, there are things I encounter every day I didn't 480 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:04,640 know. And I recognize that it's an opportunity. It's that kind of silly, potentially 481 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,080 apocryphal story about Alexander the Great who cried when he found out he'd conquer the whole 482 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:13,600 world, the known world at the time, in quotes. But I'm like, that's not a place we want to get to 483 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,600 mentally, where it's like, oh, I know everything there is to know. That would be an opportunity 484 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:23,120 to weep and grieve because the idea that we as instructors are also always learning because 485 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:29,120 there's something to learn and that students can teach us things. I love teaching the course I 486 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,560 teach because every term I learn something new. The students will put a spin on one of the topics 487 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:42,400 and I'll think I had no idea. And I'm like really invested now in this argument. And I'll find 488 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:48,320 myself Googling it, like studying. And you find out that my own set of priorities is not the same 489 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:55,040 as everyone else's, but I can, when I learn about other priorities that are out there, I can respect 490 00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:01,520 someone's perspective when they prioritize something else because it is important. It just wasn't, 491 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:06,000 I didn't know it was important because it's not my story, but when they tell their stories and I 492 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:12,160 learn about their priorities, you just gain a lot more grace for the whole world because you really 493 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:19,680 realize if you have a really narrow lens, you're never going to learn and you're never going to 494 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,000 care. And I don't want to be that. I don't, again, I don't think you can work in education if you 495 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:29,280 don't want to learn and you don't want to care. It doesn't work. You become the embittered professor 496 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,120 that everyone can't stand. And I really, really don't ever want to be that person. 497 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:38,480 My friend and I have a pact with each other. I have a small group of cohort members. We've also, 498 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,800 the day we find ourselves jaded, just tap the other one and we'll know to just get out and find 499 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,800 something else to do with our lives. We will not let ourselves get to that point. We keep a lot of 500 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:52,480 good eyes on each other. I agree. My mentor said to me from high school, she said, the day you stop 501 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:57,200 learning is the day you stop growing. And if you're getting an observation, you never want to be a 10 502 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:02,000 out of 10 on the first try because then you have no room to continue helping yourself grow. And I, 503 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,080 too, whenever I teach my classes, I always learn something new from my students' perspectives. 504 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,400 And sometimes if I get a paper that's on a topic I would have never thought about 505 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:17,280 and the mechanics are there, the formatting is, it's okay. But if the passion is there, 506 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,520 automatically we're going to get a significantly higher grade because I want to motivate them 507 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:27,360 to keep talking about that aspect. And I think the more they just have that cheering on that 508 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:32,320 they can do that, the more they'll feel that their voice matters. And again, when we talk about things 509 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:38,400 that I want from the class, the formatting, MLA, right, versus what they need from the class, 510 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:43,680 which is to find their voice, if they find their voice, now they've met the outcomes. And I'm so 511 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:48,320 happy with that. And as we come to the conclusion of our conversation, I wanted to go ahead and 512 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:54,320 thank our English Extraordinaire panelists, InnaRae Guy and Bonnie Fox, for their insights that remind 513 00:48:54,320 --> 00:49:00,000 us on the transformative power of voice, empathy, and trauma-informed practices that exist in 514 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,160 education. If you found value in today's conversation, please share this episode and 515 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:09,440 leave a review so we can continue establishing spaces where people can be seen, heard, and 516 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:14,880 supported. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us on the Classroom Narratives 517 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:20,080 Healing and Education podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think differently, 518 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:25,200 I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts and stay 519 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:31,120 connected with us on the at Classroom Narratives podcast over Instagram and Facebook. Remember, 520 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:55,920 together we can transform our scars into stars in education, one conversation at a time.