Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast, the space where education meets resilience.
I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode, we dive deep into the personal stories of educators, students, leaders,
and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities within modern education.
Whether you're just starting your teaching journey or are a seasoned professional looking for inspiration,
we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, and build trauma-informed communities within our schools.
Now, let's take a seat at the front of the classroom as we get started.
Welcome back to the Classroom Narratives Podcast, where today I'm joined by Bonnie Fox and InnaRae Guy.
Bonnie Fox is an adjunct instructor of composition at Southern New Hampshire University,
and also supports the dean as the department's academic partner.
She's been teaching writing since 2004, starting as a tutor for middle school and high school students,
and then moving into college-level instruction.
Bonnie lives with her family on a small farm in Florida, where she homeschools her children,
gardens badly, and raises chicken, cows, and a very vocal pig.
InnaRae Guy is an adjunct instructor of composition and facilitator for adjunct instructor training programs at Southern New Hampshire University.
InnaRae has enjoyed teaching students in secondary and higher education for over 25 years.
Additionally, as a singer, songwriter, and poet, her work empowers the human spirit,
encouraging listeners to honor the inward journey home, discover a unique light within our ancestors and ourselves,
and, when called upon, use it to transform our respective environment for the better.
Both in the classroom and through writing essays, poetry, and songs,
she makes use of her own challenges on the healing path to help others, living out the famous quote by Jerry Cantrell,
"part of the healing process is sharing with other people who care".
And personally, I wanted to invite both my colleagues, Bonnie Fox and InnaRae Guy, into the conversation with me,
because I, too, am an instructor through Southern New Hampshire University,
and while today's conversation is completely unaffiliated with our school,
it is so awesome to actually have three online instructors from throughout the country here together to join us on Zoom.
And I also did my master's through Southern New Hampshire University,
and I can say that this is the first time that I've actually had instructors sitting in front of me in 2D
and actually in real time to have a conversation. So Bonnie and InnaRae, welcome to the both of you.
Thank you. Thank you, Joey. So glad to have you all both.
And did you reach want to say a little something as well just so the audience can distinguish your voices?
This is Bonnie Fox. This is InnaRae Guy. Welcome again.
So Bonnie and InnaRae, this is also my first panel conversation, so this is really exciting.
Normally I do one on one, so to have a panel is really, really cool. I'm very excited for this as well.
So to start our conversation, we are both online instructors in some capacity here,
and I'm thinking about the different types of students that we meet in our online classes.
So for example, at Southern New Hampshire, we typically have a pretty diverse population of
English language learners. We have online students who are returning back to school.
Some are even discharged military. Some are raising families.
And we have a very, very vast and ever-growing community of students who are joining to be a
part of our programs and classes. So I want to start by asking today,
what kind of work have each of you done in your professional journeys to support diverse learners
and trying to shape that trauma-informed teaching significantly for EFL students and returning to
the classroom with students? Well, in my case, I kind of ended up in this space a little just
by the way life sometimes presents you with unexpected journeys. We were living out of the
country for a while, so I had limitations on the kind of work I was allowed to do, but I was able
to do some extensive tutoring. And when I posted the job availability that I'm here to help people
with writing, I received information from a lot of EFL learners that were in Canada at the time
saying they just wanted to do better in their classes with their writing. But as I went through
this, I was increasingly humbled by the stories that they were telling me about their experiences.
I think there's a temptation when people come from other countries to English-speaking countries,
there's a mindset that they should be always grateful for everything. But I think that it
takes away from what is often a very disorienting experience for them, especially if they're coming
from a language background where they may have known very little English and now they're trying
to in the higher ed space, trying to finish a degree or complete a degree. That in itself is
difficult and they may be bringing with them any number of challenges from their own background.
I had one student who was from China and she spoke about how it was very, very sad for her
to have been at the top of her class and now she could barely pass. And she knew it wasn't about
her intelligence, she knew it wasn't about anything other than that she just was having a very
difficult time navigating these complex ideas in a language that was really unfamiliar to her. So,
I mean, that in itself is a kind of trauma that I don't think should just be dismissed because you
should say, "well, you should be grateful now for being here". She was grateful to be there, but it
didn't take away from that personal challenge, which was impacting her ability to learn and her
desire to continue. So my role, which was very small in its own way, was just when she would send
me something, I would help understand what it was she was trying to convey so that it could be placed
in the conventional style that would be appropriate for that particular assignment or that discipline
while still respecting her own words and ideas and what she was really understanding what it was she
was trying to say, because she had a knowledge of whatever these topics were that I didn't have. I
just needed to help frame it such that she could submit it for the score she deserved to have based
on her knowledge. I kind of ended up encountering students with these stories that had a lot of
trauma because of, again, the very disorienting nature of coming to a new place where so much of
your background is now taken away from you, not intentionally, but just because you've kind of had
to leave it behind, but it's still part of who you are. And trying to strip that away from yourself
is deeply traumatic, but it's just being there, letting them tell me what they wanted to share
and helping them so that they can empower themselves, continue moving forward and feel
better about themselves because it really is, it makes a big difference.
Thank you so much for sharing that, Bonnie. To piggyback off of what you were just talking about,
it brought to mind my first experience teaching high school, which is how I ended up in a situation
where trauma-informed practices had to be developed on my part. I had always had a desire
to do trauma-informed, having come out of the inner city and realizing that there was some
suffering that I could give back, but I did not end up in an inner city school. When I first got
hired, I ended up in an affluent, predominantly white district where I'm thinking, I probably
don't run into any trauma because there's a thought in the conversation of trauma-informed
diversity that somehow white people who are affluent aren't experiencing any trauma. And
that's just not true. But in any case, when I started working, my second nature was to depend
on my own trauma and reflect back and say, "okay, what did I need as a kid?" And then I would try to
implement some of that. To Bonnie's point, I did teach writing lab. They put me in a writing lab
course twice a day. It was part of my schedule. And they put all of the students from Taiwan,
China. They could not speak English. Mexico, wherever they came in, they were in the writing
lab. And I love, Bonnie, that you talk about how just learning about their life experiences
helps. I was actually pretty interested because sometimes they told traumatic stories of why they
had to come to America in the first place. And other times they would share happy stories about
how they're feeling before and how school was over there. I learned that we were way more lenient in
understanding as teachers in America than some of the teachers they had over there. But I started
to address their need to feel like they were succeeding because there was apparently some
shame that came with the fact that they had to go to writing lab in the first place. And that
added to some of the trauma they were having in the academic space. So a lot of the assignments
I was allowed to do with them was to have them write the stories that they were telling me. So
telling me about your classroom, okay, well, your paragraph today is going to be about what happened
when you were in first grade. And I decided to differentiate. And I realized differentiation is
key to helping address classrooms from a trauma-informed perspective. That first I
was implementing what one would call the golden rule, like referencing my own trauma and thinking
I'm going to treat others as they would treat me. There's this new word going around. I hope you
heard about it, but a new phrase, which you're calling the platinum rule. So I'm working, I've
recently started to really reference the platinum rule in my mind beforehand because applying the
platinum rule is, it takes it one step further from treating others the way you want to be treated
and basically treating others the way they want to be treated. And of course, as a instructor of
children, secondary ed, and college-aged adults alike, the only way to treat someone the way they
want to be treated is to learn from them first. Thank you for sharing all of those points. And
I'm thinking about here from Bonnie's conversation as to how we do, yes, tend to see this idea of
gaslighting secondary English language learners in some respects. We make them think that they
should be grateful to be in a program where they really are not equipped up front with the tools
to help them fully succeed. And then we make it become their problem when they're not up to the
same speed as their classmates. And then it begins to have them carry this baggage along with it.
There's a lot of baggage that goes with that type of trauma as well. And there's a lot of literature
that exists. Some of my favorites include, if anyone has ever read Push by Sapphire, there's
also a lot of international stories as well that just talked about the presence of the teacher
that implements learning as either a tool of pain or learning that can be a tool for healing.
And that's a bit of a, not to sound cliche, but a double-edged sword that we deal with in education
as writing professors, that we do have those two ends of how we instruct that could be either
trauma triggering or trauma informing. And sometimes we do it without being deliberate about it.
And so with InnaRae as well, I'm so glad you mentioned the platinum phrase, which is treat
others how they want to be treated, because we're going to be listening to the segment in March. But
in April, I just recorded a segment with Rob Durant, who is a marketing and sales professional.
And we'll talk about how that rule applies to students and educators as well within academic
settings. So I'm encouraging our audience to stick around for that conversation as well to see how
that phrase helps us as educators. So my first classroom as well was also in a white and affluent
district. And I was teaching eighth grade Cambridge, eighth grade gifted. And one thing that also
surprised me, because just like in array, I too had the mentality that the group that I was with
would probably be better off than other areas that may have had less goods and services provided to
them. But I realized that what this group is dealing with, when I did physically ask them to
share their trauma in a way that looking back could have been trauma triggering rather than
triggering rather than trauma informing, they had a whole different avenue of experiences that they
are navigating, especially when it came to "the competition" that they were working
through in order to make sure that they met their graduation needs. And the mental health crisis,
the burnout rate amongst these 14 year olds was so painful to witness that I felt like I had to say
something to my leadership. And unfortunately, my suspicions were proven when leadership's answer
was, "don't worry about it. It's all about the numbers", the trauma that these students were
feeling, because they recognize they were being reduced to numbers, I thought was a whole different
kind of avenue that other districts and areas are less focused in, because they just want to see those
students survive to the end of that school day. Yeah, if you don't mind me popping in on that.
It's very triggering what you just said for me. And I don't know if I shared this with Bonnie,
we've done we had a few conversations. Thank you, Bonnie. I'm so glad you're here.
I lost a student. I just you don't forget the students lose. And she had everything,
you know, the big house, the money. And, you know, there is this assumption that they're not
suffering. And what she was suffering with was depression. And I did everything I could even down
to homeschooling. When they pulled her out, they asked me to come in and try and help her through
her assignments. And we would talk and in three years, we lost her. There was just nothing I can
do. And so the suicide rate, which is what he likes to talk about is high. What's one thing to,
you know, it's all over the news about, you know, shootings or what have you certain areas that
people, you know, feeling or oh my god, but what's happening is just if a student cannot decide that
there's another way, because they're so inundated with this is the path you're supposed to take,
that is just as violent, and just as traumatic. So I just wanted to share that personally, I do have
a student that I lost in an area that really taught me a whole lot about just assuming that
everybody's fine because their material needs it that. So thank you for saying that.
Absolutely. Thank you InnaRae, and I resonate because I lost a very close friend to suicide
months before my when I say months, I mean, like 90 days before my first time ever being a classroom
teacher, and plaguing myself into, I guess, the gaslighting, like, how could I have not been the
one to see the signs really led me to want to be that trauma informed teacher that first year.
And when students would come to me and excavate their deepest emotional circumstances, knowing
that I was a mandatory reporter, when they would come to me and say, we know that you're listening,
even when the social worker will not, it brings me or any educator into that position where Pandora's
Box is open. And at that point, you, you don't know how to put it away, even when leadership
threatens you practically for trying to get that content from the students in the way that you
hope will help them as a mandatory reporter. Yet, nevertheless, there's still in the students
knowing that they're pleased for help will fall on the deaf ears because even though, like we said,
their physical needs are met, their emotional circumstances are drowning, that alone only
continues to trigger and escalate what they're going through. How can we help students when
they reach that type of circumstance and crisis? This is so challenging because of course,
we have to see this from the lens of being educators. But obviously, I know we've talked
about this. I am not a professional therapist. I'm not, I don't have the credentials to provide
therapy. So it's a very fine line. But on the other hand, if someone comes to you with just
heartbreaking depression or whatever it happens to be, particularly these young people, and what
InnaRae said, it is just as violent, it's psychological violence to place these sort of expectations on
young people. They don't know how to handle it. They just need someone to listen. I know that
sometimes over the years, I've had students tell me things. Sometimes it's overwhelming
because you think this is a lot for me to take on. But on the other hand, they're coming to the
person they know will listen. And if I'm not going to be the person that listens, there may not be
anyone. And I kind of I go through life feeling like you never know when you're going to be in a
position to be a second chance or someone's last chance. And it's not to put credit on me,
it's to say, you don't know. You may be in that moment for a reason, and it may literally save
this person. So just putting aside whatever I may be going through, the compassion, fatigue,
we've been through that before. But on the other hand, what's the worst thing? I have to be
compassionate for another few minutes, but it may change this person's life. It may save this
person's life. I don't come from a particularly affluent background, but I did attend for elementary
and first couple of years of middle school, I attended a small private school. And I probably
took it more seriously than I should have. I was a very serious kid. I wanted to get perfect grades.
And a while back, my parents visited and they brought all my old report cards and they were
so proud to show me all these old report cards. And I started reading through them and I had to
walk away and cry. And remember, every single report card said the same thing. She's so well
behaved, she's so accommodating, she does everything she's told, she doesn't miss anything. And it's
like, I remember being so stressed out as a child. On the surface, I was the kid that was the great
kid. But I remember my parents got to the point where they couldn't afford the school anymore
and took us out and started homeschooling us. And over that summer, my hair grew like six inches.
Just walking away from this stressful environment probably saved me in its own way. And it wasn't
even like intentional, but I remember that on the surface, everything was great for me. But I look
back and I know I was really stressed out, unhappy child. So these kids where everything looks fine
or seems like it should be fine, or someone tells you, I grew up in the suck it up generation where
we were told just get over it. And I have to tell you, I'm pretty sure in the entire history of
humanity, telling someone to suck it up has never yielded the desired outcome. It doesn't work.
It just causes repression and frustration. And I have found that there is something kind of
therapeutic for me too. When people come to me and I don't feel like I have to tell them that,
I tell them, it's okay. It's okay to feel frustrated. It's okay to talk to me. I can listen.
That kind of releases something inside me too. Like we don't have to perpetuate this very toxic
mindset of telling people everything should be fine. There's no meter for trauma. Everyone's trauma
matters. If it impacted them, it matters. And if we create like a system of, well,
your trauma isn't as important because someone else has a worse situation than you do.
We have not helped anyone. So yes, a student may come to me and I might think, well, I've heard
much worse stories than that, but I don't have the right to tell them. It doesn't matter. If it
matters to them, it matters. And if they need to come and tell me, then I can be honored that they
trust me with that information and that they believe I will care enough to make some, take
some kind of action or make some kind of, provide some kind of opportunity that will help them. I
don't want to be the person that rejects them because again, I don't know if I just, that was
their last chance. I'm also thinking about when we speak about that element of being trauma informed
in the classroom. So my question is when we're working with the online space, how can we continue
to help students find their voices through writing and continue to be that element of
empowerment in the online space? Yeah. Oh my gosh, Bonnie, thanks so much for sharing that.
As much as we talk, I didn't even know that part of your story. So it's great, like constantly
learning about other people and what they've been through in life. And I just totally love what
you're talking about this. I grew up also and that suck it up and get over it. And, you know,
basically we were emotionally neglected. I think this is an ongoing joke with Gen X and early
millennials. Like we were just kind of like finding our way by ourselves. I think somewhere in how
maybe we're raising our children now, that later millennials, Gen Zers, we're giving them that
space. And so they're learning their language at a younger age. They're speaking up at a younger
age. I could see it, you know, as they come into the classroom and Joey, the question about the
online, I feel like Bonnie did answer it and just be kind because we have so many opportunities to
give them feedback through our own writing. So in the discussion boards, when they first start out
that first week, they're already writing. They're already sharing through writing. And of course,
we're composition instructors, right? We know what's happening. And we get a chance to respond in the
discussion board, be kind in the discussion board. If you have to email someone back, be kind when
you email them back. If they got an assignment in late and you have to give feedback about that,
given the platinum rule, which tells us to treat people the way they want to be treated, you don't
know why the assignment is late. So ask a question first. Then when you learn about them, you could
say, okay, if I had two sick children with RSV and one was in the hospital for the last week,
how then would I want someone to write me back? So I believe those are the many, many opportunities
that we have to just deal with the trauma in a safe way, because we are not therapists and we
don't want to dig in too deep and wind up giving someone advice that can worsen their dilemma.
I think in a lot, most cases, that's enough to get them over the hump. And if they have to find,
outside help for their situation, what have you, it helps them go forward and get what they need
without feeling like they have to involve the professor in a way that's out of our scope of
understanding or professional expertise. In the way, and Bonnie, when you had your
conversation a little earlier last year through this new podcast, you were talking about this idea
of the students connecting with their teachers with us playing the role of the local parentis.
And I'll give a little quick story as well. So when I was in high school, I was from the generation
of helicopter parents where I would come home and until I reached algebra, where she no longer could
because she's a journalism major for crying out loud, my mom would sit at the table and try and
do our math homework with us. And then my dad would step in and do the science homework with us
because he used to work in like pharmacy and big pharma. And he knew that side of the industry.
And I would typically be on my own with English and history because I could actually do it by
myself and I was good at it. So when I went to my first interview at my alma mater city,
like Parkland, when I went back to interview with the Parkland schools, the first question they
asked is, "okay, let's talk about parents. We have what we call here the PP, the Parkland parents.
Are you familiar with how they work?" And I said, "I was raised by two of them. NEXT!" So this generation
of helicopter parents was what I came from. And I remember I was with my mentor. His name was Dr.
Mendelson. I hope that we can get him on the show at some point as well. Dr. Mendelson sat with me
when we were getting our course cards for our junior year. He was my freshman history teacher.
Here I am into sophomore year. He's known me since first period, first day of freshman year.
And I went to him to ask what courses I should take for my freshman year. And he said,
to ask what courses I should take for my junior year. And I said to him, "Dr. Mendelson, I want
to take AP this and AP that and AP the other thing." And he looks at me with my little notebook on my
table, like my little agenda. And he had me do something that actually made me feel very
emotionally upset. Like I think I started crying when he told me to do this. He said, "I want you
to take your agenda and I want you to throw it into my trash can." How do you tell someone with OCD
to throw their agenda in the trash can? Bonnie's laughing like, no, you don't do that. But
when I did that, my twin brother was with me as well. I'm also a twin. He said to me,
"forget about what's on your agenda because all your agenda says is test here, quiz there,
paper there, project here." He says, "when's the last time you've actually done something with
your twin? When's the last time you two have actually gone to dinner together or even taken
a walk together?" And my twin and I looked at each other and we're like, "probably never."
Probably never. And he says, "instead of picking out your courses, he says, you want to take AP
lang? Great. Go do it and good luck." But he says, "until you sign up for AP this and AP that,
you're 16 years old. When you turn 18, your dynamics are not going to be the same." He says,
"take your agenda back and I need you to schedule in time to be that twin brother, be that son,
be that friend because I can see by the schedule you have and the schedule you want that you do not
provide yourself time to do any of that." And that was a trauma in itself to come to that realization.
What made it even more traumatic is that I didn't listen to him. And then when I got to my senior
year, I was again, well, another podcast to talk about this, but I was so emotionally drained.
It made me realize that I should be that person to help students, but why am I that person to help
students? When my own students come to me and say, "Oh, Mr. Weisler, I have this and that. And the
other thing" it's like, I look at them and I see them. I acknowledge them. But I also think about, "why me?"
like, "why am I the one that they're coming to, to talk about those conversations?" So I wanted to
hear a little bit more about our take on the role of local parentis as teachers. Why us?
How many of us have ever had those imposter moments as the teacher? I certainly almost every
day walk into a classroom. I think, "why me?" Like, "how am I the one up here in this classroom talking
about composition right now at this time in the space?" Like, "why me?" And how do we deal with that
imposter syndrome, especially in the face of being told about other students' traumas?
I remember one of my first, it was my first teaching job in college. It was at a community
college in Michigan. And we were, it's basically, this was right after the economic situation
changed in the Detroit area. So a lot of people that had had these great jobs did not have these
jobs anymore. And a lot of them were going back to school. So there I was in my 20s, you know, with
my cozy life and my master's degree. And there are these people, some of them twice my age, who are
having to come back to school. And it was really, really humbling because I felt kind of ridiculous
at times. Like they knew more than I could possibly have known. It was in a very different context.
But what did I know? I knew a lot of academic stuff. I knew how to teach writing and literature. And
I knew about all of that. So I realized I wasn't going to sell very well as the serious professor.
So pretty much from that point, and even when I taught in, because there were multiple branches
of this college, even when I taught in the branch that was more traditional young people, just taking
community college classes right out of high school, I decided that the best approach for me was to be
not like professor, but just think of myself as a facilitator. I happened to have a knowledge base
that you need in order to continue your education so you can accomplish your goals. This is not the
only class you're taking. I don't have to treat it like the most important thing you'll ever do.
I just need to provide you with these skills and help you along the way, because there is a much
bigger picture of what they're trying to do. So placing myself in that space of being more of a
facilitator of learning, and just transferring the knowledge that I have to them, I think that's been
a more successful approach. I think it means that the students are more likely to feel like they can
come to me. It's not like a business thing, but you know, if they have something come up and
they can't get something in on time, they know that I'm not going to wrap their knuckles,
because I haven't behaved that way in the classroom. They can talk to me like an adult,
and I can talk to them like an adult, and I can say, sure, if you need an extra day, that's fine.
I have no problem with that. Thank you for telling me. I also understand that sometimes for a lot of
them, it was hard for them to come to me because I was a lot younger, and that was a very strange
dynamic. So I also respected if they were just prepared to take the hit on their grade, because
they were not comfortable, but I wanted to be available to the ones that did want to talk to me.
In the online space, it is a little bit different, because we're always having to kind of project
ourselves in a friendly way that they can't see you standing there smiling at them with a happy tone.
So I do think I come across as a lot perkier and bubblier than I actually am as a human being.
There's a lot of exclamation points in my writing, especially in that first week.
Or if they know that I really am friendly, like how do I give out the bat signal that I'm friendly,
and I'm helpful, and I'm encouraging, and I want you to talk to me. I think you have to do it with
the slightly, you overshoot the tone a little, and you also listen to them. You know, students like
InnaRae has said that that first week discussion is critical, because they tell you or don't tell you
so much about themselves, sometimes by not saying things. The ones that don't tell you really
anything about their backgrounds, the ones that maybe don't share a degree, sometimes they just
forgot or they were busy and they just wrote it up really fast, but sometimes they're just not
comfortable sharing. I pay attention to that because I think it matters. This is a very different
space to have to share about yourself, and not everyone has figured out what their comfort level
is in what is sometimes their very first college class. So I always try to draw something out
that they say, something interesting that they mentioned. If it's possible, compliment the way
they describe something. If they tell me where they're from, I often look it up, not to be weird,
or you know, like I'm going to find out where you live. No, I look it up because it might be like,
oh, it looks beautiful, like some really cool outdoor activities. I'll bet it's great that
something, if they volunteered information, I try to find something that will engage
and let them know I'm paying attention and I care and that they can talk to me
and that I'm there to facilitate, not be the scary professor. And funny enough, like when I took my
masters, if a professor would introduce themselves with peer, not to sound petty, but I think it's
validating with how our students think. If a professor introduced themselves or responded to
me in my intro with periods, that would indicate to me how much or how little I should share.
If they responded with explanation points, then I would know I would be a lot more comfortable
in communicating with that professor. Yes, I love that. So extra evidence like Bonnie,
you've discussed overkill with the kindness, the exclamation points, the emojis to give them a sense
that it's a safe space to share and express their feeling. And from there, I think we're both then
in a position to grow together throughout the term. Yeah, I think that one thing that we should do as
educators is to just pick and choose our battles and avoid the ones that hinder a student who is
at least trying to be successful. And when we speak about the superhero narrative, well,
so I just defended my dissertation in December that talks a lot about that. And that phrase,
superhero, superhero, superhero is actually peppered pretty frequently throughout the 300 page project.
And I just heard from my advisor last week, because we're going to publish this by May,
this entire dissertation, he says, I have one make a suggestion that I really would like to see.
He says, the superhero narrative from the educator standpoint sounds like a suicide mission.
And I want that to be eliminated and switched out to say caregiver, because that's a much more
tangible approach as to what the educator is, their caregivers. And I'm really excited for this
because I just reached out to a lot of my former middle school students who are all in college now,
even some of my current college students who are, when I taught them for freshmen now, they're
seniors and even graduated, I reached out to about 10 of them this past week. And we're going to try
and arrange a panel in May for the podcast, the last one in the spring 2025 season. And I'm going
to ask them this question that we're talking about now is when did education set you up to believe in
the superhero narrative? And as your teacher, how did I prove it or detangle it? Because I can tell
you for those students that had me in my first year after the shooting, I was not a superhero.
Like I was just trying to get myself through the day, even though I was there, I acknowledged them,
they apparently saw me as a savior because I told them I am here to help you through your crises.
And they believed me and they would come to me and give me all of their personal emotional trauma
that again only fed into my imposter syndrome. I sit here and I think, because as a student,
when I was, you know, in early 2000s when I was in the classroom as a student,
there was something that happened pretty standard across the whole board for 13 years.
That did make me believe that my teachers were always okay, always had it together,
and were superheroes. And my favorite teacher, my eighth grade Spanish teacher, my twin brother and
I had it together. We sat right next to each other for the whole year. The best of the best, love her
so much. And when I worked alongside her, my very first ever classroom was right next door to hers.
And when I heard her teach throughout the day, like she would see me be the best teacher in the
world. She would see me with my eyes so red, like I was about to burst out crying every day after my
first period. She'd just say, relax, relax, relax. And I finally said, I said, profesora, how do you,
how did you do it? Because you come in, you're like explanation point, explanation point,
explanation point, and you're always so much fun. And here we are 15 years later, and I remember
like every day of your class. How do you do it? And she looked at me and she said, honestly,
I don't. It just, it's how it is. It's how you see it. It's not how I see it. It's how you see it.
And you'll find the people that will celebrate you on campus. She says, find the people that
will celebrate you because the ones who won't will still be here in some capacity.
And I'm sitting here wondering, because again, I think I had 28 teachers a year for high school,
plus 18, 40. Let's say we had about 47 teachers, approximately between K through 12.
About 47 teachers always made things look like they were A-OK, well aligned and perfect. And I
did not feel like I was that way at all as an educator, not at all. But my students thought
I was still that way. How and when do you think we set up that superhero narrative at the student
level to the point that we're held to those high expectations that we're not going to be able to
that lead us to become a local parentis figure? I honestly think it's set up. Society is constantly
coming up with the one person that's the best, the best golf player and then luring people into
trying to be the next Tiger Woods. It draws us away from community and draws us into a way of
being that's quite lonely, I think, trying to be number one with everything. Yeah, and I'm thinking
like when students see us as that superhero, I guess we're just socially constructed as the educator
to be that thought leader and figure of saving. And I'm curious, like, how can we
change that for our students or is it even necessary? Like, I think it would benefit us
to switch that narrative, but I just wonder if there's a way to actually make that happen.
I would agree with what InnaRae said about that need to like point to the one. There's a tendency
just within human nature to create our own idols. We admire success, but it's also extremely
unsustainable and really, really exhausting to try to be that. I don't think we change this
in one class, but we can start the pattern by not being that teacher. Just sometimes it's just being
honest. I'm doing the right challenge this term, which is a collaborative experience for students
in the liberal arts. And I was going through their drafts this week and I had to post something and
say, "I'm going to make every effort to have everything done by this day of the week, but I
got to be honest with you. We've got illness in the house. It just may not happen." I'm trying.
It's hard and a lot of our professors are working multiple jobs and it's hard and they're tired and
their students are tired. Just reminding everyone we can be human beings. Again, I go back to-
Be kind.
Yes, I know. I'm serious. I feel like this is my whole mantra. I'm not ever going to get a PhD with
this as my mantra, but seriously, be kind is such in the education space. It really is kind of a big
piece of it. You can't go into education if you don't care about people because education is about
people. And if you care about people, you have to care about the fact that people have lives and
challenges and personalities and very, very human realities that they're facing every day.
Yeah. I think that's a way, Joey, we're talking about trying to break down that superhero.
We can get more messages saying, it's okay, be vulnerable.
We may be superheroes in our content areas, but we're only caregivers in our human area.
And so as we start to come to a close to our conversation today, I'm thinking about
our conversation as a whole and I wanted to see if we can get takeaways from anybody and Bonnie
as well in terms of some best practices for welcoming voices into a classroom and maximizing
your learning outcomes while allowing both our students and course facilitators to have their
voices heard. One of the things I find interesting about teaching first year composition is that
unlike if I were in an upper level English course, most of my students are not English majors.
Most of them are going into different programs, I should say, so they have different interests.
So when they bring me their writing, I can't expect it all to sound the same because my students
that are going into computer science are not, I shouldn't be giving them feedback, oh, this could
be more flowery. That is completely irrelevant to them and their future. So for me, just as
a composition instructor, paying attention to these different types of voices in writing,
not just on the personal level in the discussion forum, but also the fact that I am preparing them
for the type of writing they will be doing, I don't have to know all about it, but not everyone
has to write the same. I shouldn't grade based on a style that might be how I would write and you
get the students that come in and you think this is how I would write the paper, A plus, A plus,
A plus, you know, it's beautiful, but then you get the ones that are perfectly good papers. It's a
different style and a different voice, but the people that come into my class, I think they can't
write, are the ones that were never encouraged because they had an English teacher who told them
there's only one type of writing and one style. And that's unrealistic and that's unfair because
again, you're going to do writing in all these other fields, but it's not all going to sound the
same. And that's been really humbling for me in the academic partner role because I meet monthly
with colleagues in different departments and I love asking these questions. I will sometimes just
when I can insert myself and say, tell me a little bit about writing in psychology, how's it different?
Because when my students say I'm in the psych program, I think, well, I can't expect them to
sound like an English major. I don't want them to sound that way. I want to like hear their voice
and again, it's very much in a formative stage because they're not experts yet, but when they
write a certain way that maybe doesn't sound like your standard English teacher essay kind of thing,
it's still good. It can still be just fine. There's a difference between writing that maybe could stand
to be improved and writing that's just a different sound. And I really, really try, I'm not great at
this. I'm always working on it, but I really do try to listen for those different styles and voices.
Exactly. No, I had to intervene for a second because that's where my imposter syndrome also
really comes in. And I tell this to my composition students all the time when I'm teaching it,
especially in person, whenever we start the argumentation unit, I say, hey, I want you all
to know that I have no idea if I'm teaching you correctly and my imposter syndrome is going to be
really bad for the next like two weeks, most in part because we want there to be a standard way
to write, but because there's so many vast disciplines that can't be done, there can be a
there can be a standard rubric to evaluate that, but I do not believe in standard papers.
Actually had a student write to me yesterday and he said, is my paper on the right track? Is it good?
Can I see an example paper? And I'm like, I can't really answer that. I can give you feedback with
what you have, but quite frankly, I don't want your paper to sound like the example. I want you to
just take your ideas and make it something that you can grow with. The way I see my classes is that
if I feel like I'm benefiting from what the students are writing, then we've missed all the
outcomes. If they think that they're benefiting from what they're writing, then we've met the
objectives. And that's why I love having a vast array of what students are producing, because I
want them to feel like they can write something and remember it when they leave the class. That's how
we meet our objectives. Yeah. And that's that subtle nod to the platinum role, right? Yes.
Yes. I wanted to close out with two points. I feel like in our composition classes,
it's naturally built in. Like I keep saying that, but it's totally in composition classes.
What is often hard for students to say, even in their own lives, before they approach
a composition course, they start to learn in our courses that it's easier and more ready
for them to put on paper. I think we naturally are going to end up in this emotional healing
space territory. It's just a natural thing. It's like, oh, I'm writing. So all of a sudden it just
starts coming out. I don't know if you've all had that experience when you first started writing,
but I did. Oh my gosh, look how this flows. And wow, let me start talking about how my mom got on
my nerves. We're all in academia, so I have to throw out there that there was a study.
We know it because we experienced it, but it's always happy to study, right? To back up what
we're saying. So there was a study done and it basically discovered that writing through
whatever they're experiencing, even if it's to meet the academic objective, increased resilience
in students, it decreased depressive symptoms in students, it decreased perceived stress,
right? Because that's talking about the superhero stuff. A lot of that's perception.
And it helps us as professors discover that there might be trauma. And so I think we're in a really
good space there. And as far as continuing to build the culture, we can continue to allow the
space for some of that emotional writing and see ourselves as a part of a culture of people.
Even though I'm the facilitator and they're the students, together we are in a culture where
we're trying to grow together and work within a growth mindset and admit that we're both growing
and learning together all the time, like from the beginning of the term to the end.
And I'll just piggyback off what you said about the community of the classroom, because I think
this is another important thing we can model for students. Learning is not a fixed state.
Education is not fixed. As the facilitator, as the instructor in the class, I'm always learning too.
So when they say, well, I didn't know that, well, there are things I encounter every day I didn't
know. And I recognize that it's an opportunity. It's that kind of silly, potentially
apocryphal story about Alexander the Great who cried when he found out he'd conquer the whole
world, the known world at the time, in quotes. But I'm like, that's not a place we want to get to
mentally, where it's like, oh, I know everything there is to know. That would be an opportunity
to weep and grieve because the idea that we as instructors are also always learning because
there's something to learn and that students can teach us things. I love teaching the course I
teach because every term I learn something new. The students will put a spin on one of the topics
and I'll think I had no idea. And I'm like really invested now in this argument. And I'll find
myself Googling it, like studying. And you find out that my own set of priorities is not the same
as everyone else's, but I can, when I learn about other priorities that are out there, I can respect
someone's perspective when they prioritize something else because it is important. It just wasn't,
I didn't know it was important because it's not my story, but when they tell their stories and I
learn about their priorities, you just gain a lot more grace for the whole world because you really
realize if you have a really narrow lens, you're never going to learn and you're never going to
care. And I don't want to be that. I don't, again, I don't think you can work in education if you
don't want to learn and you don't want to care. It doesn't work. You become the embittered professor
that everyone can't stand. And I really, really don't ever want to be that person.
My friend and I have a pact with each other. I have a small group of cohort members. We've also,
the day we find ourselves jaded, just tap the other one and we'll know to just get out and find
something else to do with our lives. We will not let ourselves get to that point. We keep a lot of
good eyes on each other. I agree. My mentor said to me from high school, she said, the day you stop
learning is the day you stop growing. And if you're getting an observation, you never want to be a 10
out of 10 on the first try because then you have no room to continue helping yourself grow. And I,
too, whenever I teach my classes, I always learn something new from my students' perspectives.
And sometimes if I get a paper that's on a topic I would have never thought about
and the mechanics are there, the formatting is, it's okay. But if the passion is there,
automatically we're going to get a significantly higher grade because I want to motivate them
to keep talking about that aspect. And I think the more they just have that cheering on that
they can do that, the more they'll feel that their voice matters. And again, when we talk about things
that I want from the class, the formatting, MLA, right, versus what they need from the class,
which is to find their voice, if they find their voice, now they've met the outcomes. And I'm so
happy with that. And as we come to the conclusion of our conversation, I wanted to go ahead and
thank our English Extraordinaire panelists, InnaRae Guy and Bonnie Fox, for their insights that remind
us on the transformative power of voice, empathy, and trauma-informed practices that exist in
education. If you found value in today's conversation, please share this episode and
leave a review so we can continue establishing spaces where people can be seen, heard, and
supported. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us on the Classroom Narratives
Healing and Education podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think differently,
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