1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,600
Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast, the space where education meets resilience.

2
00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:14,080
I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode, we dive deep into the personal stories of educators, students,

3
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:20,520
leaders, and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities within modern education.

4
00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:26,000
Whether you're just starting your teaching journey or are a seasoned professional looking for inspiration,

5
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:33,280
we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, and build trauma-informed communities within our schools.

6
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,680
Now, let's take a seat at the front of the classroom as we get started.

7
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:43,040
Alright, welcome back to the podcast everyone, and thanks for tuning in today for a very special guest.

8
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:50,280
I'm so privileged today to have Dr. Adam Wolfstorff joining me for a powerful conversation on trauma-informed classrooms.

9
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:55,600
Dr. Wolfstorff is the lead author of the text, "Navigating Trauma in the English Classroom",

10
00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:03,280
which was published in 2022 by the National Council of Teachers of English, otherwise known as the NCTE.

11
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,080
You can find that text in our show notes as well.

12
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:12,720
Dr. Wolfstorff is also one of the founding educators of 25 years at Bayridge Prep in Brooklyn,

13
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,760
which is a school reputed for its students' first approach to education.

14
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,240
Adam is also an adjunct professor at NYU's Steinhardt School of Education,

15
00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:27,280
and a visiting assistant professor in Wesley Anne's Graduate Liberal Studies program.

16
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,720
And Adam has also worked professionally within the humanities through national tours for Broadway,

17
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:38,400
and in musicals such as Rent, where he's worked alongside Neil Patrick Harris on stage.

18
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,480
And Adam has also been a part of the rock band, The Energy.

19
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:48,160
And his variegated work and love for the humanities has been inspiring to audiences,

20
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:53,360
fellow colleagues in the field like myself, as well as his own students through the work that they seek to produce.

21
00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,960
So a big thanks to him for joining us, and Adam, welcome to the show.

22
00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,280
Thank you, happy to be here.

23
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,400
So Adam, the first thing I wanted to ask is, in terms of your work in the humanities,

24
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,600
tell us a little bit more about what you do and how your journey has taken you to where you are now.

25
00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,960
Yeah, so I mean, you mentioned my performance in theater and music background,

26
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:21,360
which I grew up kind of a big time zealot of music, of performance, I did a ton of music theater.

27
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,000
And so I've always been really interested in drama.

28
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,080
And then my first couple years out of college, I did the national tour of Rent,

29
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,680
as you mentioned with Neil Patrick Harris.

30
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,880
And I did a national tour of Greece, and I did a bunch of other regional theater

31
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,400
productions for about two and a half years after graduating.

32
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,560
And then I kind of realized that as much as I love drama and I love performance,

33
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,920
I didn't want to do that as my main thing for the rest of my life.

34
00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:49,040
And I started to think about what it might be that I would want to do.

35
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,400
And I had gone to a sleep-away camp as a kid for about seven years as a camper.

36
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,680
And then I had been a counselor for three years.

37
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,800
And I loved working with adolescents, being part of their development,

38
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,280
being a mentoring figure, an impact figure.

39
00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:12,080
I studied literature at Harvard, and it just kind of felt like it would make sense for me to

40
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:13,360
try my hand at education.

41
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,320
And about that time, it was in 2000, I believe, there was a brand new school that was beginning

42
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:21,440
in Brooklyn, New York.

43
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:22,960
It's called Bayridge Prep.

44
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:29,680
And it was begun by a group of psychologists who believed in the intersectional living space

45
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,360
between positive psychology and education.

46
00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:38,480
And I loved kind of what they were talking about and the vision that they had for a school.

47
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,360
And so I've been with Bayridge Prep since 2000.

48
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,560
And it's a school I've helped to build and design and grow.

49
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,640
And I'm the chair of the humanities department there.

50
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:47,840
That's incredible.

51
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:48,160
Yeah.

52
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:55,280
And so I didn't realize this when I did my research that psychologists formed the blueprint

53
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:56,240
to Bayridge.

54
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:56,480
Yeah.

55
00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,560
So I mean, obviously, one of the things that we're going to talk about is my interest in trauma.

56
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,160
And what I will say, at any school in America, you're going to have kids who have had

57
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,000
traumatic histories.

58
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,400
Bayridge Prep isn't specific as a place for kids with traumatic history, right?

59
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:13,760
At any school, you're going to see this.

60
00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:19,200
But the founders of Bayridge Prep, the two people in particular, Dr. Michael T. Dealy

61
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:25,920
and Dr. Charles Fasano, both of whom are my mentors and friends, had an idea of using

62
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:34,000
what we know about psychology to impact learning on levels that stretch far beyond kind of

63
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,160
like intellectual learning or just like content-driven learning, right?

64
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:44,000
So curriculum, I think, tends to be seen as the stuff that students learn that's kind

65
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,360
of in classical models imparted by the teacher or professor in this banking system.

66
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,080
And even 25 years ago, when I started, Dr. Fasano and Dr. Dealy were talking a lot about

67
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,520
emotional intelligence.

68
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,800
And I had gone to Harvard and studied a lot of stuff that would fall into the intellectual

69
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:08,720
realm. And one of the things that I actually always found missing was an emphasis on emotional

70
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:14,320
learning, because it seemed to me that the complete person was actually a lot more of

71
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,600
an emotional organism than an intellectual organism.

72
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,440
And that if you really wanted to impact people, you would impact them where they live

73
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,160
experientially, phenomenologically, right?

74
00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,720
And so I'll say this, as somebody who went to a great public high school in Brooklyn

75
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,840
High School, I went to a pretty good college in Harvard University.

76
00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:39,600
I went to a great PhD program at Columbia University, and I teach at NYU and at Wesleyan.

77
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,800
And I will say that Bayridge Prep is the most special learning culture I've ever been

78
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:51,760
involved with. It just has an incredible design and an incredible emphasis on emotional

79
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,440
learning in a way that really has a beautiful impact on the community.

80
00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,600
I love hearing that so much, because I feel like, as you mentioned, these are the types

81
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,480
of schools that we need, since there needs to be a focus on teaching the whole child,

82
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:05,840
not just the brain of the child.

83
00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:10,960
And I think until more schools go that way, education is going to continue remaining as

84
00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,320
a stagnant institution. But once more schools focus on that kind of philosophy that you're

85
00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,720
holding as well, we can really help the system survive once again.

86
00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,440
That's right. And I think a lot about Ken Robinson's work. He has a great book called

87
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,840
The Element, which I've read and I teach from. He also has a great TED Talk where he talks

88
00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:34,960
about the way that schools are killing creativity. And he talks a lot about the idea that most

89
00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:40,560
kind of classical educational models are targeting the idea that we're teaching the brain.

90
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,880
But there's this whole other thing. Students have a body, students have emotions, students

91
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:49,840
have a history, students have a psychology. So thinking more deeply and comprehensively

92
00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,200
and expansively about what it means to educate somebody.

93
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,640
Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of the way that you have approached teaching according to

94
00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,800
your own text is that you say that one of the key takeaways is with what we call to be

95
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:09,360
relational teaching. And relational teaching is the ability to form relationships with

96
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:14,000
students and teachers amongst each other. And what relational teaching does is that it

97
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:20,400
switches the mindset and the paradigm of, "what's wrong with you?" to, "how can I help you?",

98
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,360
especially when approaching students who may be in distress, as a way to still build and

99
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,920
enhance the partnership that can survive and thrive with learning between the teacher and

100
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,200
the student. How can educators really try to form those authentic relationships with

101
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:40,400
students in their classroom, especially in spaces where a trauma may be present but unspoken?

102
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:46,240
It's a great question. I mean, I think a lot about the kind of fallacy of building a syllabus

103
00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,720
prior to meeting your students, which I think is what we're kind of compelled to do, right?

104
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:56,800
Because we're supposed to come two day one ready to go with kind of like this map of what the year

105
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:02,560
is going to look like. And I do it because I do think there's value to it, but I also resist it.

106
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,320
And I also like whatever syllabus I have, and this is whether I'm teaching at the high school

107
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,920
level, the college level, or the graduate level, I always am ostensible with my students and say that

108
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:17,200
whatever it is that I've designed or I imagine for the work that we're going to do is subject to

109
00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,880
change. And the reason why is that we haven't met each other yet, right? So I always have this pretty

110
00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:28,720
meaningful idea that the curriculum is really the students and getting to know them, get a feel for

111
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,200
them. I would say that when you're in front of a room dealing with an audience of people, whether

112
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:38,720
it's 15 people, 30 people, whatever it is, a hundred people, it's a little harder as the numbers get

113
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:45,600
bigger. But I really try to get a sense of who the people are in the room, what they're interested in.

114
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:51,120
I'm sensitive to what I might perceive as their moods, which can change day to day, student to

115
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,680
student can even at the adolescent level, can change hour to hour and even minute to minute.

116
00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:02,880
Right. But I try to establish a really deep respect for what we're doing together as a community.

117
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:08,720
I try to show regard. I try to notice subtle things. So like you're obviously going to notice

118
00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,360
your students who are raising their hands and like super engaged and like ready to go. But I also

119
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:19,040
notice very small things. Like if I ask a question to the group and like a kid who typically is not

120
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,440
involved might like kind of perk their head up a little bit or like gesture towards picking their

121
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:28,560
hand up. And I might at that instance stop and actually call on that person, even if they haven't

122
00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:32,720
fully raised their hand, because I can kind of gauge like this might be a moment this person

123
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,160
really wants to participate. I feel like when students intuit that you have a deep level of

124
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:43,120
regard for them. And the other part of this that I think is really important is listening, listening

125
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:49,920
actively. I think the danger of educators is that they're talking heads who have mouths and like to

126
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:58,240
use them to show how much they know. I think a really great educator oftentimes is expert in

127
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,360
creating a space where the students can run the show. That might take a little bit of time,

128
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,640
depending upon the group that you're working with. But invariably, I love it when students are just

129
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:13,360
really engaged and really involved and leading the interpretive process, especially when we're

130
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,080
looking at a literary text and we're discussing a topic that is really rich and vibrant.

131
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:23,280
Yeah. And it sounds like the most important thing that educators can maintain is their with it-ness

132
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,840
within the classroom. And part of that with it-ness is just knowing what's going on around you,

133
00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:33,520
how students are reacting and having that nonverbal communication really, really down solid.

134
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:40,160
And as a result, that can, as you hint at them, lead the instructor to be a subject area expert,

135
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:46,880
but still allow the students to act as the content masters, if you will, as the instructor plays the

136
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:52,320
role of a facilitator that lets others learn from outside just that one person. Because I'm sure you

137
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:57,760
say the same to your students too. On day one, when I walk in, I say, there are 27 minds in this room,

138
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:05,280
not one, but 27. And if one of you doesn't participate, we're going to crumble. So however,

139
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,840
you choose to participate, whether it's through written response, verbal response, whatever that

140
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:15,520
means for you and what you're comfortable to do. Yeah. Voice matters in this classroom. For sure.

141
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:22,080
I like what you just said about the idea that some students are not going to open their mouths

142
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:27,040
and say anything almost ever. Like they're shy for whatever reason, or they don't like public speaking

143
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,440
or whatever it is. But that doesn't necessarily mean at all that that student isn't deeply engaged,

144
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,080
really kind of communicating and communing with the work. And so we'll see that come out in a bunch

145
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,760
of different ways. One of which, as you said, is their writing. Absolutely. And I've learned that

146
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:45,600
some of my best classes work best on flexibility and choice, where if I tell them, you don't really

147
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:51,280
have to vocalize in this unit, but if you write it out, I will pull the top responses and I'll read

148
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:56,480
anonymously and say, this is what a classmate said, let's talk about these thoughts. And that still

149
00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:02,320
allows the silent peer to participate and vocalize without them having to physically do so on their

150
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:07,680
own. It gives them the support and the lifeline to still get them a part of the class. Yep. And with

151
00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:13,120
some of the materials that you and I both talk about, Adam, in our classroom, we have a really

152
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:20,320
solid trauma-based curriculum. And you've mentioned this paradox where in the real world,

153
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:28,160
trauma hits us head on, that in the classroom, we're so hesitant as a field to really try and

154
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,880
talk about it as a humanities body. So there's this paradox that students are fighting because

155
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,840
they're going to face trauma out there, but they can't talk about it in here. What are some ways

156
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,200
to bridge that gap and safely invite trauma as part of a classroom environment? I guess what I

157
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:48,320
want to set out by saying is that if we look at humanities as if we talk about social studies or

158
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,880
history, and then if we talk about English, it's kind of two spaces within the humanities. In

159
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,120
history or social studies, I think it's a little bit easier because I think the content is pretty

160
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,040
clearly traumatic, right? So if you're talking about World War I, if you're talking about World

161
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,280
War II, if you're talking about COVID, if you're talking about 9-11, if you're talking about

162
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:11,200
America's history with racial injustice or civil rights, it's pretty clear what's on the table.

163
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,720
And to not talk about it as traumatic is almost missing the whole point of what it is, right? And

164
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:22,080
how we can learn from it. I think English is a little bit more nuanced in the sense that I think

165
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:29,360
the reason why you can read a book like A Great Gatsby and not even realize on some level how much

166
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,280
heavy traumatic content exists in the book is that it's so beautifully written. And so I think the

167
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:41,840
same applies to certain songs. You might listen to a really beautiful lyrical piece of music.

168
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,160
And then if you stop and like you start to consider the lyrics, what you notice is that

169
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,840
that thing is packed with horrible stuff. I've asked students at the college level and at the

170
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,880
graduate level, can you name one piece of literature that you studied or would teach

171
00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,760
that doesn't have really traumatic content in it? And they can't really name one. And that it's not

172
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,520
just true for adult texts. It's true for Harry Potter, for Charlotte's Web, for The Lion, the

173
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,800
Witch, and the Wardrobe. I mean, there's things that are happening in these books, right?

174
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:17,360
It's a conundrum to think about how we enable children to approach that kind of context when

175
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,600
their view of the world is still so innocent. I mean, I've mentioned this throughout several

176
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,080
podcasts, but one of my favorite texts is The Giver written for an elementary middle schooler.

177
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:32,320
And even there, you're euthanizing babies. I mean, there's going to be trauma in every single story.

178
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,720
That's right. And as you mentioned, it's also timeless because Shakespeare is running about this

179
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:43,120
centuries ago and all of his tragedies, even up to Leon Juliet. Or go back to ancient Greece, right?

180
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:51,040
Homer, go to Sophocles, right? It's all over the place. Yeah. Yeah. So we can't hide from that.

181
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:59,280
But as a field, we try to. And what can we do to combat that as a field of scholars?

182
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,680
So when I was doing my dissertation work, I read a lot of Bessel van der Kolk's work. I read a lot

183
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,760
of Judith Herman's work. I would really recommend for anybody who's interested in trauma, Judith

184
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:13,120
Herman books, Trauma and Recovery, and then van der Kolk's book, The Body Keeps the Score.

185
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,480
And in The Body Keeps the Score, van der Kolk says, we're on the verge of becoming a trauma

186
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:25,440
conscious society. So like the history of trauma and like talking about trauma, it's like this weird

187
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:32,880
conundrum where on some level it's like, we can't talk about it. It's taboo. It's rare. It's unusual.

188
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:38,000
You know, you kind of bury it. But the reality is, and van der Kolk is very specific about this at

189
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:43,440
the start of The Body Keeps the Score, is he references the CDC statistics about trauma.

190
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,560
And his whole point is just to show how incredibly ubiquitous, right? So, and then Mark Epstein,

191
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,520
who writes Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart, he's a Buddhist psychoanalyst at NYU.

192
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,680
He says, if you're not suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder,

193
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,480
you're suffering from pre-post-traumatic stress disorder. So it's like, we have this

194
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,720
subliminal knowledge that if we live long enough, we're going to encounter traumatic stuff, right?

195
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:14,880
It's just part of the human experience. And so we live on some level with that embedded anxiety,

196
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,520
because we know that it's just a matter of when. And I think the beautiful thing about literature

197
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:26,320
is that when we read texts like The Kite Runner or Hamlet or Beloved, there's such beautiful,

198
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,880
meaningful ways to look at and experience traumatic content. There's something about reading these

199
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,920
books and talking about them with students, that even though it's really heavy stuff,

200
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:43,360
it's actually like life promoting in a way. So it gives kind of a space for these very

201
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,120
rich and meaningful conversations. So The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel

202
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:53,200
van der Kolk was actually written in 2015. I think that it was only a decade ago where we had a

203
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:59,680
scholar say trauma goes beyond being someone on the battlefield and facing combat. And Judith

204
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:05,520
Herman who echoes that says trauma goes beyond being just a victim of rape, right? Those two

205
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:11,520
years together say that these are phenomenons that people can subjectively classify and put

206
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,040
into their own lives on a daily basis or on a moment's basis because of how their body reacts.

207
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:24,560
They say it's the physical experience that also alerts how a person responds to trauma.

208
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:31,600
And those together are a part of inevitable life experiences. And Adam, as you quote in your text,

209
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:37,120
you say that, though in life it is wise to actively avoid trauma, in the English classroom,

210
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:42,080
we deliberately seek it out, find the books, the poems, and the plays that give trauma the

211
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,120
opportunity to speak. And I think we do that, like you say, in texts such as Catching the Rye,

212
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:52,160
To Kill a Mockingbird, The Hate U Give, Shakespearean Plays. And through all of these

213
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,400
different texts, trauma just becomes a part of how we communicate because it's something that we

214
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,360
can't avoid. So I guess my next question, which you've already mentioned, but I wanted to hear

215
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:06,560
a little bit more, is to how can we make these types of subjects less taboo? Because actually,

216
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:12,640
I mentioned this. When I did a dissertation on trauma studies, I went to my advisor, who may

217
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,840
be listening to this at some point, and he cautioned me. And he said, just be very careful, because

218
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:23,040
when you're on the job market and you say the word trauma in an interview, it's going to shake a lot

219
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:28,560
of people up. What can we do to lower that stigma and change the narrative as to what this topic's

220
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:34,880
all about? A great question. You know, I think that when we avoid traumatic experiences in the real

221
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:41,280
world because they hurt us, but I think we seek traumatic content in the classroom because it

222
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,720
helps us. And I think that's a really important paradox. If we're learning about trauma, I think

223
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:52,080
we're learning about it because somehow it makes us stronger. It makes us more aware. It makes us

224
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:57,440
more conscientious. And I think it teaches us how to embrace the human experience more. And I think

225
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,800
that it teaches us how to regard each other with more empathy. So I think that probably relates to

226
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,560
this idea of in the classroom or like in an interview or something like that, do you avoid

227
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,240
talking about your interest in trauma because somehow that's going to be perceived as being

228
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:17,440
taboo? I would say that if you lean into it too much, yeah, I could understand that. I think on

229
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,760
another level, as Van der Kalk says, as you said, 10 years ago, we're on the verge of becoming a

230
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,560
trauma conscious society. I mean, I think this stuff is more in the vernacular than it has been

231
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,880
historically, right? So there's another way that I think you can talk about it if you're in the job

232
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,080
market. I think you can talk about conflict because trauma is just like really pretty extreme

233
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:42,240
conflict. And the reason why literary texts work, if they work, is because characters are pushed to

234
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:48,000
the far recesses of what is humanly possible for them to endure. And in those kinds of corners,

235
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,280
when they're placed into those very intense traumatic corners, the question becomes,

236
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,800
how do you survive and grow given the obstacle that you're confronted with? And that's how,

237
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,760
by the way, obviously you don't teach kids anything by traumatizing them, but you do teach kids a lot

238
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:08,160
by challenging them. So you have to find meaningful challenges. And I think that when we're reading

239
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:13,600
really dramatic texts, you mentioned the hate you give, or you mentioned the giver. I think that when

240
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:20,960
we watch characters confronting really complicated scenarios and we empathically align with them,

241
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,400
all the research supports that when we read literature, we enhance our empathy. So I think

242
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:32,720
that that experience deepens us, makes us more complex. And we shouldn't confuse somebody who's

243
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:39,600
interested in trauma as somebody who's going to be promoting trauma in some way. I think maybe

244
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,080
that's part of where the confusion is. I think from what I understand, and I could be wrong,

245
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:50,000
my students would have to get on your podcast and let you know. But my understanding is that

246
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,360
my students feel that when we talk about some really intense stuff that characters are going

247
00:20:55,360 --> 00:21:02,880
through, it helps to give them in a way, a better sense of who they are, some of their own challenges,

248
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,080
and it helps them identify deeply with what people are going through so that they can better

249
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:13,040
navigate and explore the world. When we read these kind of heavy texts of intense stories,

250
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,800
I actually think it does a lot for the community because it's almost like the community wraps

251
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:24,560
empathically around the narratives. And we kind of get a sense of belonging and interconnectedness

252
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,960
through that experience, through narrative, which going back to the conversation about theater and

253
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,880
plays and like drama, I mean, if you've ever been in a show with other people, like you can really

254
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,320
unite with these people kind of for the rest of your life because you've gone on a type of

255
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,800
journey together. Yeah. And there is a lot of literature that exists or rather research that

256
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:49,360
exists that says how literature is that universal experience in unifying through empathy because when

257
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:54,000
students are reading about different characters in the text, they're now comparing their own

258
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,720
life decisions to what the characters in the books have done, which creates the sense of unity and

259
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,120
validation as to the types of journeys that they want to take as well in their own lives. And in

260
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:09,120
doing so, I think one thing that Adam, you and I will both agree on in our classrooms that are

261
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:15,120
focused on this trauma-informed practicum is that what we're doing is providing students with this

262
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:21,600
toolkit for survival and growth. And that toolkit is just the mindsets that they need where even as

263
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,640
Van der Kolk would say, is just talking about it. Van der Kolk says that when you talk about

264
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:32,080
experiences or talk about stories, even when they're fiction, you're triggering a part of

265
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:38,960
your brain that can rewire how you see your own traumas. And that can be a way to find one's

266
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,680
healing. So I think the most important work that we do is forming that toolkit within our own classes.

267
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,320
Absolutely. And I think that's such a great point. And I want to tie in one other thing is that

268
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:55,200
the literature and the research seems to show that a lot of traumatic content is, we don't have words

269
00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:02,720
for it. So like, if you look at PET scans and MRI studies of people who are triggered by a traumatic

270
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:08,720
memory, what we see is that Broca's region shuts down and Broca's region is a language center.

271
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:15,440
So the narrative that's written by, you know, you pick the author, gives language to the experience.

272
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:21,840
And I think to your point about rewiring, language is one of the ways that we can rewire

273
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:28,080
the brain. So to give narrative voice to these kind of nonverbal traumatic memories. There was

274
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:35,040
a New York Times article showing that a treatment for PTSD is writing a novel because it gives

275
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:43,840
language and structure and space for traumatic experience that has probably never been processed

276
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:50,800
adequately or spoken about or articulated adequately. I believe it. I was actually on

277
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,000
a call this morning, recorded on the same day with Mario Conejo, who I'll also hear from in the month

278
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:03,680
of March. And he was talking about the necessity to just be among others in your network and just

279
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:09,600
talk about different situations as a way to heal. And I think that journaling is a way of self-talking.

280
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,640
It's a way of looking inwards and talking to yourself or writing to yourself as a way to

281
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,920
express the same emotions that maybe one would do with a peer or even up to being into a talk

282
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,880
therapy session, which leads me to a point as English teachers that, Adam, you speak about in

283
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:30,480
great depth in your text. I wanted to bring that up. When it comes to the therapeutic classroom,

284
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,360
you say that the central argument of even the research that you do is that English teachers

285
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:41,920
who understand trauma-informed pedagogy are far better off both for their curricular content and

286
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:47,440
for their students. There are English teachers who do not take the time to learn how trauma operates

287
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,720
and can get triggered through reading and writing. And while English teachers are trauma-informed,

288
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:58,400
they are not playing the role of the therapist. So I wanted you to help define for us, if you would,

289
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:06,400
the difference between an English classroom that can be therapeutic but is not therapy and how the

290
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:12,560
teacher can really help maintain their boundary between being that educator and that pseudo-psychologist

291
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:19,120
that they're not really qualified to actually do. Yeah. To me, it's a great question. And I think

292
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:23,600
that invariably, I want to say two things. The first thing I want to say is that it's impossible

293
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,160
to fully answer because this is a really hard question. The next thing I want to say is that I

294
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:34,560
think it has to do somehow with limits and boundaries and disclosure. If we're processing

295
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:44,160
the mindset of, let's say, Daisy or Myrtle or Tom or Gatsby or Nick, and we're trying to live in

296
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,680
their minds and understand their motivations and the things that they've gone through. And of course,

297
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:56,000
I'm talking about The Great Gatsby, right? If we're working to put ourselves in their shoes and

298
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:02,320
connect with them in the ways that we can and facilitate discussions that are centered around

299
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:09,520
the novel or the poem or the play or the discussion, then I think we're working therapeutically

300
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:16,080
because we're providing a vehicle and a container for rich discussion that, of course, is going to

301
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:23,360
get into the emotional fabric of the people in the room but is contained within the metaphysical

302
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:30,560
space of the text, as it were. I think when it gets overly personalized and when either the teacher

303
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:37,680
or the student starts bringing up their own traumatic histories in a way that at times is

304
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,320
getting witnessed and experienced by everybody in the space, that's where there's kind of bleed,

305
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,520
right? So let's say if we're reading Streetcar Named Desire and there's sexual assault in the

306
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,160
Streetcar Named Desire, right? And let's say that a student raises their hand and says that they've

307
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,520
been sexually assaulted. Now, all of a sudden, it's no longer about the Streetcar Named Desire

308
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:03,040
phenomenon. It's no longer Stanley and Blanche and Stella. Now it's this person in the room.

309
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,400
And now all of a sudden, as an educator, you have to make a choice. It's an instantaneous choice that

310
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:14,720
you have to make because now that content is in the room and you have to validate it and you have

311
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:21,920
to express empathy, but you also have to know on some level how to create a limit around it.

312
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,360
So that that student doesn't get the sense that now for the next X number of minutes,

313
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:33,680
it's going to be about them and their experience in part because it's actually not healthy for them.

314
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,600
It's not healthy for that student to now share this information with 25 other people who can

315
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,080
take it in any direction that they want to. And it may not be necessarily healthy for them to

316
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,480
share it with you, but now they've already shared it. So what are you supposed to do with that

317
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:56,400
content? So I think it's about being empathic, being other directed and using the knowledge

318
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,320
that a student might give you or the content that a student might give you to meaningfully

319
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,760
engage with them in positive appropriate ways for the rest of the school year and beyond.

320
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:11,040
But it's also about not being too indulgent and knowing what your boundaries are. And also,

321
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,480
and this is very important, knowing that in the institutions where you work, there's probably

322
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,240
like a social work division, there's probably a mental health division. And if you sense that

323
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,040
that student is in like some pretty acute distress versus like, you know, it happened and they've

324
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,080
come to terms with it in whatever way you possibly can. But if you feel like that student really

325
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:36,320
might need a space to talk and process this, it's about knowing how to redirect the student in a

326
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,600
meaningful way that keeps them safe and everybody else safe as well. So how do you be empathic,

327
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,720
engaged and responsive, but also know your limitations, right? Like this isn't the right

328
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,840
space for therapy. It's not going to do anybody any good. I wish I knew you five and a half years

329
00:28:51,840 --> 00:29:00,240
ago, Adam. You're reminding me of after the Parkland shooting when I saw myself in a middle

330
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,920
school, the feeder middle school, as this comrade who was able to bleed pain alongside the students

331
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:12,640
and using like of mice and men to make that be done. And what it did for me as an educator

332
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,680
is that all it did was put me in a lose lose situation because I knew that I could not

333
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:23,680
live up to this narrative I built for my students and that I could pull the pain from them.

334
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,400
Yeah. It was going to upset my administration if I tried to do so.

335
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,000
That I think is such a key point that you just said there. Like it's a lose lose situation

336
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,160
because you can't over promise. You're not going to heal anybody. Like you, I'm sorry,

337
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,600
you can be healing. You can provide a healing space and you can be a healing figure,

338
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,400
but you can't over promise. Like when somebody goes to therapy, they're relying on the therapist

339
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,760
in some ways to be the portal for their healing. And oftentimes in a therapeutic context, it can

340
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:58,000
be pretty comprehensive healing, but in a classroom you can be a therapeutic force, but you should not

341
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,840
convey to the student that you're going to heal them. I think that's where this illusory line

342
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,520
gets broken down as it were. If in a sense, an educator is almost over promising something

343
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,560
to students. And then what winds up happening is there's a sense of betrayal because the student

344
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,880
almost feels on some implicit level, like why did you suggest that this was going to happen?

345
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,400
And now I have to leave your class in two months and I'm not healed. And you didn't give me enough

346
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:30,400
space for it. So it's complicated because it's that fine line between empathy and enmeshment.

347
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,120
So sometimes you got to direct them to the nearest port to get help there.

348
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:41,200
And keep them safe for now. Adam, this must be why people in leadership shutter at the thought of a

349
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,680
trauma based classroom, because this is why they must be afraid that they're going to fall into

350
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,800
this exact narrative. That's right. They've seen it before. That's right. Yeah. And I also just

351
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:56,640
think that feelings are messy things, right? If you have a multiple choice exam and you can pick D

352
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:03,360
or C, that's a lot easier than allowing someone's emotional content to come to the fore. And yet,

353
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,920
if we're in language arts or if you're in the humanities, our emotions are going to rise because

354
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:13,120
the purpose of art is to arouse emotional response. Yeah. And I think some of the best ways to stick

355
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,880
with this is to just continue tying content back onto the text. Like as you mentioned,

356
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:24,240
if a student vocalizes something personal, validate that, but then say, tell us how this relates back

357
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:30,880
to Gatsby, Daisy, and what the emotions of the characters in the text are going through as well.

358
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,000
And in doing so, I also like to use a rubric so students know that there is a baseline in which

359
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:43,120
they can and will be assessed. Yeah. By keeping checkboxes, not to standardize thinking, but to

360
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:48,400
adhere to learning. I think that helps students remain within that boundary as well. And something

361
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,200
else you mentioned, Adam, that I think is worth highlighting is that healing based narrative. I

362
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,520
think even one thing that my advisor just said to me when I was submitting my dissertation,

363
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:03,760
he said, remove the language from your work that caused the teacher, the hero, especially in

364
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:10,000
Hollywood, we highlight the hero teacher a lot. Totally. Yep. As if you remove that word and

365
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,520
replace it with something like caretaker, you're going to really humanize what the teacher is

366
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:23,680
capable of over that phrase that consistently tries to put the teacher in the savior-like role

367
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,640
where they don't belong. It makes total sense. What could be one mega takeaway that you'd want

368
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,840
our listeners to say with from our conversation here? And also where can our listeners go to

369
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:39,120
learn more about and support the work that you do? Thank you. Yeah. So I think that's

370
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,680
so I think the most important thing is really listening to your students. And I mean that like

371
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,240
actively listening, like the classroom is a complicated space because you're up there and

372
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,240
you're in front of a group of people and you're quote unquote, the de facto leader and you make

373
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:58,720
a lot of choices. And I think that the teachers who have really impressed me are not just people

374
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,280
who are like really bright and really interesting, but people who are like are really interested in

375
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:09,520
what students have to say and like genuinely take joy and delight in really hearing their perspectives,

376
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,080
even if those perspectives are already things that we've thought of because we've taught,

377
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,720
you know, catch her in the rye for 20 years or whatever it is, but there's something delightful

378
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:24,240
about having a student come to those ideas for the first time. So I think being a really active

379
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,480
listener and really promoting community, I mean, in a world like we're living where there's so much

380
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:34,320
political division and there's so much economic disparity, you know, like creating community

381
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,600
spaces where students come to the classroom excited to be together and to learn together

382
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,840
and to have that be like a highlight for them is really rich and meaningful. And then in terms of

383
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,200
my work, well, I guess I would say if you're interested in my book, my book, Navigating Trauma

384
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:55,280
in the English Classroom with Kristen Park Wedlock and Cassandra Lo is available through NCTE,

385
00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,960
which published the book also on Amazon and Target and all sorts of stores. And then I also have,

386
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,640
looks to be hopefully crossing fingers, a second book coming out with Lauren Porosoff.

387
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:12,000
It's a book that looks at subversive situations that have happened in the classroom space. So

388
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,480
maybe when that's published and come back on and we can talk about that, if you'd have me again.

389
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,640
Just going to say, I can't wait. You're already looking forward to that.

390
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:26,640
That one looks at basically situations where really unexpected things happen in the classroom

391
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,720
that completely pull the rug out from underneath you and have you scratching your head.

392
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:35,200
It's interesting because in a lot of graduate programs on education, some of which I teach in,

393
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:41,200
training teachers are taught about curriculum and rubrics and classroom management and theory,

394
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,400
but they're often not taught what really happens in the classroom, which is a great book that I

395
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,960
think speaks to this. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it is Rademacher's book. "It Won't

396
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,480
Be Easy", where it calls it like a love affair to his experience as an English teacher, but like

397
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,840
looking at like the nitty gritty and like the granular day-to-day realities of being a teacher.

398
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:08,000
I'm thinking of Eileen Moore, who talks about that trajectory of the five phases of a teacher,

399
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,360
who says that they start with anticipation, then they break into survival and then disillusionment.

400
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,320
And I'm hoping that different anthologies like the one you're working toward Adam can help

401
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,520
shift that narrative and let us understand it at the graduate teaching level because as students,

402
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:29,440
we don't get it and we won't see that until we are the instructor of record all on our own.

403
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,320
That's it. That's true. Yeah. So when I got in touch with Adam, I was over the moon because I

404
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:40,000
said, this is a scholar who advocates for everything that we do as trauma informed educators.

405
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,720
So Adam, the big things for joining us for this very powerful and insightful conversation.

406
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:49,360
And for those of you who are listening and want to learn more about our trauma informed practices,

407
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,680
check out our showing us to learn more. And until then, just keep using your classroom as a way to

408
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:59,440
spread the stories that truly matter. Thank you for joining us on the classroom narratives,

409
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,640
healing and education podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think differently,

410
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,360
I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts

411
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,800
and stay connected with us on the at classroom narratives podcast over Instagram and Facebook.

412
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:42,960
Remember together we can transform our scars into stars in education, one conversation at a time.