Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education podcast, the space where education
meets resilience. I'm Joey Weisler, and in each episode, we dive deep into the personal stories
of educators, students, leaders, and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities
of modern education. Whether you're just starting your teaching journey, or are a seasoned
professional looking for inspiration, we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout,
and build trauma-informed communities in our schools. Now, let's take a seat at the front of
the classroom and get started. Today we have a truly special conversation in store as we welcome
Charlene and Richie Schwarzkopf to the podcast. Their story is one of resilience, survival,
and an unyielding commitment to making sense of the incomprehensible. On September 11, 2001,
Richie was in his office at One Liberty Plaza located in Manhattan, directly across from the
World Trade Center, when the first plane struck. What began as an ordinary morning quickly turned
into a scene of chaos and devastation. Through Richie's eyes, he will relive the moments of shock,
confusion, and the instinctive drive to survive as he witnessed the towers fall. We'll also hear from
Charlene, who stood by his side in the period that followed as they navigated the aftermath of that
life-altering day and began the long journey back to normal. Charlene's home video, found on YouTube
as well as in a donation to the 9-11 Memorial Museum titled, The Days After 9-11, helped Charlene
process the incomprehensible. Just as educators and students face their own battles, whether it's in
the wake of a tragic event, the challenges of a dysregulated classroom, or the personal toll of
burnout, Charlene and Richie's story will serve as a powerful reminder of the strength we find within
ourselves and each other during times of crisis. I invited Charlene and Richie to the podcast because
after the mass tragedy that my community experienced in Parkland, Florida in February 2018,
they called me within a few days as members of my family to express practicality over sympathy,
where much like Richie, I experienced mass trauma while immediately next door to the site of the
actual event. I touched base with them about six weeks later in April and said, "I'm not sure where
I am in my healing process". And Richie, who had held onto his silence about 9-11, invited me to
spend the weekend with them where he would tell me his story, which also included taking me down to
see the Freedom Towers for the very first time, a sign indicating that beauty can still indeed rise
up from ashes and rubble. So our conversation today will not only reflect on their incredible
personal journey, but we'll also explore how their insights can guide educators and students in
understanding the impact of trauma and finding the courage to foster resilience in their own lives
in classrooms. So join us as we welcome Charlene and Richie Schwarzkopf for a conversation that
promises to be both moving and enlightening while we offer wisdom on how we can all rise from
adversity and continue to grow in the face of life's most challenging moments. Welcome to the
both of you. Thank you again for being here. Nice to be here. Thank you, Joe. So my first question
here is for Richie. One major takeaway we've gained throughout each of our podcast segments so far
is how traumatic moments can come at times that are unexpected while serving to be life-changing.
Can you give us a brief preface as to what you experienced on that day in 9-11? Well,
I mean to set the stage, I worked in Wall Street my whole life and at the time of 9-11 my office was
I had a corner office facing the South Tower, the downtown tower. There are two towers. So I usually
get in around 8:30 or so, 8:15, and at 8:45 I'm sitting at my desk facing the World Trade.
It was beautiful to watch the morning sun hit the World Trade and the air shook outside. It was like
a thunderstorm or something and I don't know what the heck that was. And all of a sudden I see a
lot of white paper come drifting down and I look, I bend over, look out my window and up to the right
and I see flames shooting out of the North Tower, the Uptown Tower, and it was like what the heck?
I said somebody set a bomb off and then somebody came running in, a secretary or somebody else in
the office and said, I hear a small plane, passenger plane hit the World Trade. I said, oh that's
an enormous amount of flames for a little plane hitting. Anyway, within a few minutes we all had
the news that we got on the radio and through our loudspeakers and our evacuation signs went off.
And I thought, well, you know, it's probably safer to be in the building, but they said, no,
we all have to evacuate. So we get downstairs on the street looking at the Uptown Tower
and the flames are just shooting out of it. And within 10 minutes or so or 15 minutes,
I am standing like a hundred yards from the downtown tower, the South Tower. That's fine,
nothing's happening there. But we're all looking uptown and all of a sudden it's sort of the world
just stopped for a second. This huge passenger plane at 500 miles an hour hit right above my head
and I look up and gas exploded from the tanks because they were full tanks because they just
had taken off, I believe. And a sheet of flames went like two or three blocks uptown, just like
you're watching some enormous fireworks display and everything shook and then all of a sudden
everything started coming down on us. And it was like the world ended.
That's a very challenging visual. Thank you for those details. So Richie, once you were on the
street level now standing right under the buildings, did you process what you were seeing and what were
your immediate thoughts and reactions? So we're watching the tower and all of a sudden we start
seeing people jumping from the upper floors, from the 90th floor and 100th floor where there are
restaurants. And they kept jumping and jumping and this poor woman in front of me starts screaming.
And I said, oh no, no, it's only birds, don't worry. I knew it was people. You could see them.
It was numbing. I mean, you think first it's like what's happening and all of a sudden from this
little event of a small plane hitting, it became, you know, we're in the middle of something and you
don't know if you're in a world war or what's happening. And it's just overwhelming. In the
beginning, when you're out there in the street, when this thing is falling around you, your first
thing is, you know, your survival. And you really don't try and put the pieces together.
It's, you know, contact people, let them know you're safe, you know, get your breath and
sort of go from there. And now in 2024, having just passed the 23rd Remembrance of 9-11,
how do you continue to respond to this event? You learn to compartmentalize it. And it's on
the anniversary when it comes up that a lot of it comes back. I lost a lot of friends that day
about a dozen people I know. It's painful even to remember these things, but I find the community
aspect and getting out there is a very good healing thing. So you've spoken a lot about community
reconciliation, if you will, in the aftermath of a traumatic event. And what I'm hearing so far is
that you've definitely taken that time in your brain to switch part of the event from a moment
of silence to one worth speaking about and being vocal with. So if you had other survivors of trauma
in front of you, what would you tell them to expect as it relates to trying to make sense of their
healing process? What did trauma teach you during that time? Well, I survived it, you know, I was
not injured. You know, that meant a lot. Charlene was not injured, you know. So there's something to
know that, all right, my closest people in my life are fine. After a while, learn to compartmentalize
it. I think it's, you know, staying busy, not isolating yourself, trying to jump back in. Don't
pull yourself into a shell and try and solve it yourself. Get back into life and it helps. It
helps a great deal. Definitely. We're going to be talking in the next couple of segments
here from some trauma therapist and what some of their advice is about taking time to release
trauma from the nervous system. So I want to go ahead and turn to Charlene for the moment here.
And Charlene, you produced a home video. I used to show it in class and I will call it a documentary,
but it's not a documentary at all. In fact, it's a home video called the days after 9-11.
And tell us a little bit more about what this artifact is, why you chose to create it, and
what it has done for you as a native New Yorker in terms of finding your own healing process and
seeing other people react to this artifact. I think I've always been the kind of person that
documents. I worked in research, in media research for many years, and it's a collection of bits of
information. My first thought though, in starting to film the days after 9-11, was that so that I
could accurately remember because you know, over the span of years, our imaginations sometimes
take over what we've actually experienced. And one might also be impacted by all kinds of news
specials and movies about the event. But by taking the camera immediately and filming what was going
on at the time, I was able to keep its authentic memory alive in my mind. I'm very flattered that
other people find it useful. And I have to say that in talking to Richie, we can't think of any
other video that does that. I'm sure it might exist, but we've not come across any kind of
documentation that goes into the neighborhood level impact of such an event, and a neighborhood
that's essentially within a mile, a half of where it happened. Definitely. So to give more of a
preface as to what this home video looks like, which you can find in our show notes as well,
the days after 9-11 starts to converse with Richie about the fact that she's been
in the neighborhood for a long time. And then, in the spring of 2001, the video starts to converse
with Richie about some of his firsthand experiences with this event before turning towards a more
personal view of New York City during that time, particularly Manhattan and Midtown as well.
The video looks at the time following the event, such as September 12, September 13,
some moments in October and November 2001, as well as spring 2002, all the way up to the
time of my classes. Some things we look at are at the observations you made on patriotic mobilization,
or rather, had the city really showed American pride during that time, the candlelight vigils,
and the city's overall navigation of mass trauma. What were some of the most compelling moments
that you remember documenting, and why do we still remember them today, and why were they worth
documenting at that moment? Well, for me, there were quite a few moments like that. The first day
that I went back into the office, my office was closed for a couple of days. And when we went back
to the office, there were a couple of extraordinary things that happened that first day. The first
thing was that they brought in a grief counselor and had everybody in the office talk to this grief
counselor to see how we were adapting and reacting to this event. And I went in thinking, you know,
I'm fine. This is a past event. But as I started to talk about it, I realized how deeply it had
impacted me. I have people in the department who reported in to me who had young children, and they
were concerned about how their young children would fare if, God forbid, there was a further attack,
that they themselves were killed. I mean, people were processing it in a variety of different ways.
The other thing that I remember from that particular day was I was working in Midtown,
not too far from Grand Central Terminal, and there was a rumor that it was a bomb planted in
Grand Central Terminal. So that created a lot of anxiety on the streets in Midtown. There are
things I remember from that time. In the evenings, there were candlelight vigils in our neighborhood,
where you could walk down the street and you see just clusters of people sitting together
with lighted candles. And again, you spoke to the red, white, and blue. I normally would not necessarily
remember this, but I do remember it because it's in my video. People dressed in red, white, and blue.
And you see a lot of people just dressing the colors of the flag. And that's not something that
one might normally notice had it not been on the video and reminded me of that. Absolutely. And I
think one point that your video makes is that trauma does not live in the vacuum. It's not just
in the moment, on that day and time. You didn't just wake up on September 12th and feel completely
better. It's an ongoing process towards resilience that helps people recover towards their own
personal journeys. And I wanted to talk real quick about Soshana Felman and Dori Laub.
So Felman and Laub are two theorists who actually use Auschwitz survivor Elie Wiesel. And Charlene,
you actually took a coursework with Elie Wiesel. So I wanted to hear a bit more about that as well.
So these two theorists use Elie Wiesel in his Holocaust-based memoir, Night, published in the
1950s, to emphasize that when an author creates language based on their own experiences,
the reader now becomes a witness to this type of event. And when we say a reader,
that's anybody who can look at a particular text or any kind of image that tries to give out
information. So in the days after 9-11, Charlene has become now a witness to 9-11, while viewers
of her home video are now serving as a witness to the witness in essence. And I bring that up
because I want to ask, why remember the pain? Well, I just want to go back briefly. I did not
actually witness 9-11. I witnessed the days after. And Richie is a firsthand witness. So I'm
witnessing the witness. I studied with Elie Wiesel in 1974. So we're going back a long time. He was
a guest lecturer at the City College in New York, teaching a class on Holocaust as literature.
And the class itself, beyond what Professor Wiesel was teaching us, was also a way of my more fully
understanding the impact of the Holocaust, because there were many students in the class
who were descendants of Holocaust survivors. And so there was a lot of sharing of family stories
and histories in that class that went beyond the regular assignment. It was for me a very seminal
moment because it really helped me embark on a fuller study of the Holocaust, which I'm still
studying today, and other aspects of persecution. Why remember the pain? Why use a video like yours
to capture and remember this pain? For me, it's not remembering the pain. It's remembering the facts,
remembering what it was like. We talked today about fake news and how there's all of this,
frankly, lies and exaggerations. When you see something in a film form taken of the time,
it creates the truth. It reinforces the truth and gives the viewer a sense of what actually happened
rather than somebody's interpretations of what happens. So that's how I see it more than anything
else. Absolutely. And I think that really helps validate some of the emotions that other trauma
survivors go through in light of, for example, conspiracy theories. I'm pointing out some of the
conspiracies that came about after, for example, Sandy Hook or Parkland, and even 9-11, absolutely.
And I think when you have vital proof from that moment in time, it helps validate the facts based
upon what happened in those instances. So I wanted to ask both Charlene and Rachel here today,
what advice would you give to other teachers and educators who have either experienced trauma or
are currently struggling with feelings of fear within their own classrooms? And if you could put
together some kind of toolkit for healing, what would that look like? I mean, there is no magic
formula. And I think people do, depending on their backgrounds, handle things different ways. But I
know a healthy way is to get involved and don't forget it. But also, you have to go on with your
life. And there's always a million things in one's life. So they're very important. And taking care
of family, friends, dinner at night, whatever it is, a lot of important things. So get involved in
everything. You don't have to sit in the dark room and think about the nightmare. But it's get
involved. And you can't talk about it all the time. But it's getting involved in life, rather
than talking about it constantly. My advice, I actually think would be journal it, write it down,
and then put it away, and go on and get involved and socialize and live your life. But you'll have
that initial sense of what you were feeling at the time that you could look back upon and see your
progress. So document and journal, but then go on. That's excellent advice, especially speaking to a
writing professor here as your host. That definitely gives us a lot of incentive as to how we can run a
classroom based upon what we would call narrative medicine. And narrative medicine is a tool that
allows students to express something on paper in a way that leads them to healing rather than
re-traumatization. Absolutely. Thank you for that. So as we bring this deeply moving conversation to
a close, I want to extend my heartfelt gratitude to Charlene and Richie Schwarzkopf for sharing
their powerful story with us today. Their experiences on that fateful 9-11 day remind us
not only the fragility of life, but also the extraordinary resilience that lies within each
of us when we're faced with the unimaginable. Charlene and Richie's journey through trauma,
survival, and the process of rebuilding speaks volumes to the educators, students, and leaders
who listen to this podcast. Their story is a testament to the fact that even in the darkest
moments, there is hope, there is healing, and there is a strength to keep moving forward.
As we reflect on what we've heard today, let it inspire us to bring more compassion and empathy
into our educational spaces. Let's take this opportunity to turn the lessons of resilience
and courage into meaningful change in our classrooms and communities so that we can better
support one another through the struggles that each of us face. Thank you for joining us on the
Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think
differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts
and stay connected with us on the at Classroom Narratives Podcast over Instagram and Facebook.
Remember, together we can transform our scars into stars in education, one conversation at a time.