1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,280 Welcome to the Classroom Narratives Healing and Education podcast, the space where education 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:12,080 meets resilience. I'm Joey Weisler, and in each episode, we dive deep into the personal stories 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:19,120 of educators, students, leaders, and frontline advocates who are navigating the complexities 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:24,800 of modern education. Whether you're just starting your teaching journey, or are a seasoned 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:31,040 professional looking for inspiration, we'll explore how to foster meaningful change, prevent burnout, 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:36,160 and build trauma-informed communities in our schools. Now, let's take a seat at the front of 7 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:43,200 the classroom and get started. Today we have a truly special conversation in store as we welcome 8 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:49,120 Charlene and Richie Schwarzkopf to the podcast. Their story is one of resilience, survival, 9 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:55,760 and an unyielding commitment to making sense of the incomprehensible. On September 11, 2001, 10 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:02,160 Richie was in his office at One Liberty Plaza located in Manhattan, directly across from the 11 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:09,120 World Trade Center, when the first plane struck. What began as an ordinary morning quickly turned 12 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:15,200 into a scene of chaos and devastation. Through Richie's eyes, he will relive the moments of shock, 13 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:21,280 confusion, and the instinctive drive to survive as he witnessed the towers fall. We'll also hear from 14 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Charlene, who stood by his side in the period that followed as they navigated the aftermath of that 15 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:34,560 life-altering day and began the long journey back to normal. Charlene's home video, found on YouTube 16 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:41,600 as well as in a donation to the 9-11 Memorial Museum titled, The Days After 9-11, helped Charlene 17 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:47,360 process the incomprehensible. Just as educators and students face their own battles, whether it's in 18 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:52,560 the wake of a tragic event, the challenges of a dysregulated classroom, or the personal toll of 19 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:58,240 burnout, Charlene and Richie's story will serve as a powerful reminder of the strength we find within 20 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:04,160 ourselves and each other during times of crisis. I invited Charlene and Richie to the podcast because 21 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:09,760 after the mass tragedy that my community experienced in Parkland, Florida in February 2018, 22 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,120 they called me within a few days as members of my family to express practicality over sympathy, 23 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:21,040 where much like Richie, I experienced mass trauma while immediately next door to the site of the 24 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:27,360 actual event. I touched base with them about six weeks later in April and said, "I'm not sure where 25 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:33,920 I am in my healing process". And Richie, who had held onto his silence about 9-11, invited me to 26 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:39,120 spend the weekend with them where he would tell me his story, which also included taking me down to 27 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,720 see the Freedom Towers for the very first time, a sign indicating that beauty can still indeed rise 28 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:50,400 up from ashes and rubble. So our conversation today will not only reflect on their incredible 29 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:56,720 personal journey, but we'll also explore how their insights can guide educators and students in 30 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:02,080 understanding the impact of trauma and finding the courage to foster resilience in their own lives 31 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:07,440 in classrooms. So join us as we welcome Charlene and Richie Schwarzkopf for a conversation that 32 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,240 promises to be both moving and enlightening while we offer wisdom on how we can all rise from 33 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:17,280 adversity and continue to grow in the face of life's most challenging moments. Welcome to the 34 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:22,320 both of you. Thank you again for being here. Nice to be here. Thank you, Joe. So my first question 35 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,840 here is for Richie. One major takeaway we've gained throughout each of our podcast segments so far 36 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:33,680 is how traumatic moments can come at times that are unexpected while serving to be life-changing. 37 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,720 Can you give us a brief preface as to what you experienced on that day in 9-11? Well, 38 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:48,960 I mean to set the stage, I worked in Wall Street my whole life and at the time of 9-11 my office was 39 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:56,160 I had a corner office facing the South Tower, the downtown tower. There are two towers. So I usually 40 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:04,960 get in around 8:30 or so, 8:15, and at 8:45 I'm sitting at my desk facing the World Trade. 41 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:11,920 It was beautiful to watch the morning sun hit the World Trade and the air shook outside. It was like 42 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:19,520 a thunderstorm or something and I don't know what the heck that was. And all of a sudden I see a 43 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:26,960 lot of white paper come drifting down and I look, I bend over, look out my window and up to the right 44 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:36,560 and I see flames shooting out of the North Tower, the Uptown Tower, and it was like what the heck? 45 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:42,320 I said somebody set a bomb off and then somebody came running in, a secretary or somebody else in 46 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:50,560 the office and said, I hear a small plane, passenger plane hit the World Trade. I said, oh that's 47 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:56,640 an enormous amount of flames for a little plane hitting. Anyway, within a few minutes we all had 48 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:03,360 the news that we got on the radio and through our loudspeakers and our evacuation signs went off. 49 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,680 And I thought, well, you know, it's probably safer to be in the building, but they said, no, 50 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,720 we all have to evacuate. So we get downstairs on the street looking at the Uptown Tower 51 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:21,440 and the flames are just shooting out of it. And within 10 minutes or so or 15 minutes, 52 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,720 I am standing like a hundred yards from the downtown tower, the South Tower. That's fine, 53 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:32,880 nothing's happening there. But we're all looking uptown and all of a sudden it's sort of the world 54 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:41,840 just stopped for a second. This huge passenger plane at 500 miles an hour hit right above my head 55 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:49,920 and I look up and gas exploded from the tanks because they were full tanks because they just 56 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:58,160 had taken off, I believe. And a sheet of flames went like two or three blocks uptown, just like 57 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:04,800 you're watching some enormous fireworks display and everything shook and then all of a sudden 58 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,880 everything started coming down on us. And it was like the world ended. 59 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,480 That's a very challenging visual. Thank you for those details. So Richie, once you were on the 60 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:21,120 street level now standing right under the buildings, did you process what you were seeing and what were 61 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:27,280 your immediate thoughts and reactions? So we're watching the tower and all of a sudden we start 62 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:33,200 seeing people jumping from the upper floors, from the 90th floor and 100th floor where there are 63 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:39,440 restaurants. And they kept jumping and jumping and this poor woman in front of me starts screaming. 64 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,240 And I said, oh no, no, it's only birds, don't worry. I knew it was people. You could see them. 65 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:54,000 It was numbing. I mean, you think first it's like what's happening and all of a sudden from this 66 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,800 little event of a small plane hitting, it became, you know, we're in the middle of something and you 67 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:06,240 don't know if you're in a world war or what's happening. And it's just overwhelming. In the 68 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:11,120 beginning, when you're out there in the street, when this thing is falling around you, your first 69 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:18,240 thing is, you know, your survival. And you really don't try and put the pieces together. 70 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:25,600 It's, you know, contact people, let them know you're safe, you know, get your breath and 71 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:32,640 sort of go from there. And now in 2024, having just passed the 23rd Remembrance of 9-11, 72 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:39,600 how do you continue to respond to this event? You learn to compartmentalize it. And it's on 73 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:45,040 the anniversary when it comes up that a lot of it comes back. I lost a lot of friends that day 74 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:51,600 about a dozen people I know. It's painful even to remember these things, but I find the community 75 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:58,480 aspect and getting out there is a very good healing thing. So you've spoken a lot about community 76 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,680 reconciliation, if you will, in the aftermath of a traumatic event. And what I'm hearing so far is 77 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:09,680 that you've definitely taken that time in your brain to switch part of the event from a moment 78 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:15,520 of silence to one worth speaking about and being vocal with. So if you had other survivors of trauma 79 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:20,400 in front of you, what would you tell them to expect as it relates to trying to make sense of their 80 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:27,600 healing process? What did trauma teach you during that time? Well, I survived it, you know, I was 81 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:34,560 not injured. You know, that meant a lot. Charlene was not injured, you know. So there's something to 82 00:08:34,560 --> 00:08:41,920 know that, all right, my closest people in my life are fine. After a while, learn to compartmentalize 83 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:52,080 it. I think it's, you know, staying busy, not isolating yourself, trying to jump back in. Don't 84 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:58,480 pull yourself into a shell and try and solve it yourself. Get back into life and it helps. It 85 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,480 helps a great deal. Definitely. We're going to be talking in the next couple of segments 86 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,440 here from some trauma therapist and what some of their advice is about taking time to release 87 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,320 trauma from the nervous system. So I want to go ahead and turn to Charlene for the moment here. 88 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:18,640 And Charlene, you produced a home video. I used to show it in class and I will call it a documentary, 89 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,440 but it's not a documentary at all. In fact, it's a home video called the days after 9-11. 90 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:29,280 And tell us a little bit more about what this artifact is, why you chose to create it, and 91 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,880 what it has done for you as a native New Yorker in terms of finding your own healing process and 92 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:42,720 seeing other people react to this artifact. I think I've always been the kind of person that 93 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:51,120 documents. I worked in research, in media research for many years, and it's a collection of bits of 94 00:09:51,120 --> 00:10:00,480 information. My first thought though, in starting to film the days after 9-11, was that so that I 95 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:07,280 could accurately remember because you know, over the span of years, our imaginations sometimes 96 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:15,760 take over what we've actually experienced. And one might also be impacted by all kinds of news 97 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:23,760 specials and movies about the event. But by taking the camera immediately and filming what was going 98 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:33,360 on at the time, I was able to keep its authentic memory alive in my mind. I'm very flattered that 99 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:42,400 other people find it useful. And I have to say that in talking to Richie, we can't think of any 100 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:48,240 other video that does that. I'm sure it might exist, but we've not come across any kind of 101 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:54,000 documentation that goes into the neighborhood level impact of such an event, and a neighborhood 102 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,320 that's essentially within a mile, a half of where it happened. Definitely. So to give more of a 103 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,200 preface as to what this home video looks like, which you can find in our show notes as well, 104 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,400 the days after 9-11 starts to converse with Richie about the fact that she's been 105 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:16,000 in the neighborhood for a long time. And then, in the spring of 2001, the video starts to converse 106 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,360 with Richie about some of his firsthand experiences with this event before turning towards a more 107 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,800 personal view of New York City during that time, particularly Manhattan and Midtown as well. 108 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:33,280 The video looks at the time following the event, such as September 12, September 13, 109 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:39,760 some moments in October and November 2001, as well as spring 2002, all the way up to the 110 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:46,160 time of my classes. Some things we look at are at the observations you made on patriotic mobilization, 111 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,680 or rather, had the city really showed American pride during that time, the candlelight vigils, 112 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:56,880 and the city's overall navigation of mass trauma. What were some of the most compelling moments 113 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:02,480 that you remember documenting, and why do we still remember them today, and why were they worth 114 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:11,040 documenting at that moment? Well, for me, there were quite a few moments like that. The first day 115 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:16,880 that I went back into the office, my office was closed for a couple of days. And when we went back 116 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:22,000 to the office, there were a couple of extraordinary things that happened that first day. The first 117 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:28,160 thing was that they brought in a grief counselor and had everybody in the office talk to this grief 118 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:36,800 counselor to see how we were adapting and reacting to this event. And I went in thinking, you know, 119 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:44,000 I'm fine. This is a past event. But as I started to talk about it, I realized how deeply it had 120 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:50,800 impacted me. I have people in the department who reported in to me who had young children, and they 121 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:58,000 were concerned about how their young children would fare if, God forbid, there was a further attack, 122 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,200 that they themselves were killed. I mean, people were processing it in a variety of different ways. 123 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,400 The other thing that I remember from that particular day was I was working in Midtown, 124 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:14,480 not too far from Grand Central Terminal, and there was a rumor that it was a bomb planted in 125 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:20,960 Grand Central Terminal. So that created a lot of anxiety on the streets in Midtown. There are 126 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:27,840 things I remember from that time. In the evenings, there were candlelight vigils in our neighborhood, 127 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,320 where you could walk down the street and you see just clusters of people sitting together 128 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:41,120 with lighted candles. And again, you spoke to the red, white, and blue. I normally would not necessarily 129 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:47,120 remember this, but I do remember it because it's in my video. People dressed in red, white, and blue. 130 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:53,520 And you see a lot of people just dressing the colors of the flag. And that's not something that 131 00:13:53,520 --> 00:14:01,120 one might normally notice had it not been on the video and reminded me of that. Absolutely. And I 132 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,680 think one point that your video makes is that trauma does not live in the vacuum. It's not just 133 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:10,320 in the moment, on that day and time. You didn't just wake up on September 12th and feel completely 134 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,120 better. It's an ongoing process towards resilience that helps people recover towards their own 135 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,480 personal journeys. And I wanted to talk real quick about Soshana Felman and Dori Laub. 136 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:27,120 So Felman and Laub are two theorists who actually use Auschwitz survivor Elie Wiesel. And Charlene, 137 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,960 you actually took a coursework with Elie Wiesel. So I wanted to hear a bit more about that as well. 138 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:37,520 So these two theorists use Elie Wiesel in his Holocaust-based memoir, Night, published in the 139 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:44,000 1950s, to emphasize that when an author creates language based on their own experiences, 140 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:50,000 the reader now becomes a witness to this type of event. And when we say a reader, 141 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,120 that's anybody who can look at a particular text or any kind of image that tries to give out 142 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:02,720 information. So in the days after 9-11, Charlene has become now a witness to 9-11, while viewers 143 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:09,440 of her home video are now serving as a witness to the witness in essence. And I bring that up 144 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:16,640 because I want to ask, why remember the pain? Well, I just want to go back briefly. I did not 145 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:24,720 actually witness 9-11. I witnessed the days after. And Richie is a firsthand witness. So I'm 146 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:35,920 witnessing the witness. I studied with Elie Wiesel in 1974. So we're going back a long time. He was 147 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,920 a guest lecturer at the City College in New York, teaching a class on Holocaust as literature. 148 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:51,440 And the class itself, beyond what Professor Wiesel was teaching us, was also a way of my more fully 149 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,160 understanding the impact of the Holocaust, because there were many students in the class 150 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:04,720 who were descendants of Holocaust survivors. And so there was a lot of sharing of family stories 151 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:13,200 and histories in that class that went beyond the regular assignment. It was for me a very seminal 152 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,080 moment because it really helped me embark on a fuller study of the Holocaust, which I'm still 153 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:25,840 studying today, and other aspects of persecution. Why remember the pain? Why use a video like yours 154 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:34,880 to capture and remember this pain? For me, it's not remembering the pain. It's remembering the facts, 155 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:41,680 remembering what it was like. We talked today about fake news and how there's all of this, 156 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:49,360 frankly, lies and exaggerations. When you see something in a film form taken of the time, 157 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:59,120 it creates the truth. It reinforces the truth and gives the viewer a sense of what actually happened 158 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:05,520 rather than somebody's interpretations of what happens. So that's how I see it more than anything 159 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:11,440 else. Absolutely. And I think that really helps validate some of the emotions that other trauma 160 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,480 survivors go through in light of, for example, conspiracy theories. I'm pointing out some of the 161 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:22,720 conspiracies that came about after, for example, Sandy Hook or Parkland, and even 9-11, absolutely. 162 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:28,320 And I think when you have vital proof from that moment in time, it helps validate the facts based 163 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:35,600 upon what happened in those instances. So I wanted to ask both Charlene and Rachel here today, 164 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:41,760 what advice would you give to other teachers and educators who have either experienced trauma or 165 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,560 are currently struggling with feelings of fear within their own classrooms? And if you could put 166 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:53,040 together some kind of toolkit for healing, what would that look like? I mean, there is no magic 167 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:59,920 formula. And I think people do, depending on their backgrounds, handle things different ways. But I 168 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:08,640 know a healthy way is to get involved and don't forget it. But also, you have to go on with your 169 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:17,040 life. And there's always a million things in one's life. So they're very important. And taking care 170 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:23,360 of family, friends, dinner at night, whatever it is, a lot of important things. So get involved in 171 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:30,960 everything. You don't have to sit in the dark room and think about the nightmare. But it's get 172 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:39,520 involved. And you can't talk about it all the time. But it's getting involved in life, rather 173 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:50,000 than talking about it constantly. My advice, I actually think would be journal it, write it down, 174 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:57,120 and then put it away, and go on and get involved and socialize and live your life. But you'll have 175 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:03,440 that initial sense of what you were feeling at the time that you could look back upon and see your 176 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:12,320 progress. So document and journal, but then go on. That's excellent advice, especially speaking to a 177 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,440 writing professor here as your host. That definitely gives us a lot of incentive as to how we can run a 178 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:23,920 classroom based upon what we would call narrative medicine. And narrative medicine is a tool that 179 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,960 allows students to express something on paper in a way that leads them to healing rather than 180 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:35,040 re-traumatization. Absolutely. Thank you for that. So as we bring this deeply moving conversation to 181 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,400 a close, I want to extend my heartfelt gratitude to Charlene and Richie Schwarzkopf for sharing 182 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:46,320 their powerful story with us today. Their experiences on that fateful 9-11 day remind us 183 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:52,080 not only the fragility of life, but also the extraordinary resilience that lies within each 184 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,360 of us when we're faced with the unimaginable. Charlene and Richie's journey through trauma, 185 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:03,360 survival, and the process of rebuilding speaks volumes to the educators, students, and leaders 186 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:08,640 who listen to this podcast. Their story is a testament to the fact that even in the darkest 187 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:14,320 moments, there is hope, there is healing, and there is a strength to keep moving forward. 188 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,560 As we reflect on what we've heard today, let it inspire us to bring more compassion and empathy 189 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,720 into our educational spaces. Let's take this opportunity to turn the lessons of resilience 190 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,680 and courage into meaningful change in our classrooms and communities so that we can better 191 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:37,440 support one another through the struggles that each of us face. Thank you for joining us on the 192 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:43,120 Classroom Narratives Healing and Education Podcast. If today's episode inspired you or made you think 193 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:48,560 differently, I'd love to hear from you. Drop a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts 194 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:54,000 and stay connected with us on the at Classroom Narratives Podcast over Instagram and Facebook. 195 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:22,160 Remember, together we can transform our scars into stars in education, one conversation at a time.