WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.339 The biggest thing that I say is make sure that 00:00:02.339 --> 00:00:05.019 you, in competitions, yes, you can coach as much 00:00:05.019 --> 00:00:07.320 as you want. You can bring the analytical stuff 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:10.259 to practice as much as you want. But during competition, 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:13.720 we want the athlete to be automatic and we want 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.679 the lift in this context to be automatic. So 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:21.379 don't overcoach. Hi, Chris. It's my pleasure 00:00:21.379 --> 00:00:24.079 to have you on Evidence Strong Show. Please briefly 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.519 introduce yourself. All right. I'm Chris Massagno. 00:00:26.579 --> 00:00:29.829 I'm an associate. professor at Victoria University. 00:00:30.089 --> 00:00:33.750 And I'm an expert, if you want to say that, in 00:00:33.750 --> 00:00:36.990 sport and exercise psychology and mainly choking 00:00:36.990 --> 00:00:39.789 under pressure researcher generally. And as you 00:00:39.789 --> 00:00:42.090 can tell from a little bit from my accent, I 00:00:42.090 --> 00:00:44.250 didn't necessarily grow up in Australia. Did 00:00:44.250 --> 00:00:46.270 a couple degrees at the University of Florida. 00:00:46.329 --> 00:00:48.810 I have to say that. Go Gators, by the way. And 00:00:48.810 --> 00:00:52.969 then came to Australia in 2002 to do my PhD and 00:00:52.969 --> 00:00:55.210 stayed in Australia, in Melbourne, Australia 00:00:55.210 --> 00:00:58.070 from there on out. So this is where I'm at. Also, 00:00:58.310 --> 00:01:00.549 I mean, we're talking chalky today, so let's 00:01:00.549 --> 00:01:04.170 start with a little bit background. So what happens 00:01:04.170 --> 00:01:07.750 in the brain during... extreme pressures. And 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:10.769 let's keep it for our audience in sports context. 00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:13.629 Yeah. So in the brain, for brain functioning, 00:01:13.829 --> 00:01:16.030 I would say I'm going to focus a little bit more 00:01:16.030 --> 00:01:18.810 on left and right brain rather than more of the 00:01:18.810 --> 00:01:21.090 biological stuff within the brain, because we 00:01:21.090 --> 00:01:23.250 don't necessarily know a lot about that right 00:01:23.250 --> 00:01:25.790 now. But what we know generally is that when 00:01:25.790 --> 00:01:29.209 choking is experienced, and some may debate me 00:01:29.209 --> 00:01:31.689 on this in relation to left versus right brain 00:01:31.689 --> 00:01:34.530 and whether it actually exists or not. But more 00:01:34.530 --> 00:01:36.840 recently in the last... 10 years or so, we've 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:38.959 found that individuals that experience choking 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.379 are more focused on, well, the brain functioning 00:01:42.379 --> 00:01:45.040 focuses on the left hemisphere of the brain where 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.219 you get too analytical and you don't necessarily 00:01:48.219 --> 00:01:51.640 let things flow and become automatic in that 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.840 context. So brain activation is more increased 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:58.459 in the left hemisphere of the brain and not necessarily 00:01:58.459 --> 00:02:01.359 the right hemisphere. And there's not much connectivity 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:04.180 and discussion, if you will, between the left 00:02:04.180 --> 00:02:06.659 and right. part of the brain when pressure is 00:02:06.659 --> 00:02:10.199 on. So again, many of the choking experiences 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:13.000 or individuals that actually experience choking, 00:02:13.139 --> 00:02:15.259 they become a little bit more analytical, start 00:02:15.259 --> 00:02:18.319 thinking too much instead of allowing things 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:21.219 to happen automatically and getting away from 00:02:21.219 --> 00:02:23.620 the creative side of their brain generally, which 00:02:23.620 --> 00:02:25.699 is the right side of the brain in a general sense. 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:28.039 All right. I think we need the choking definition 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:32.580 to be sure what we are talking about. for us 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:35.020 to be on the same page. So what exactly choking 00:02:35.020 --> 00:02:37.419 in sports is? All right. Instead of giving you 00:02:37.419 --> 00:02:39.719 a research -based definition, I'm going to give 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:42.099 you characteristics instead that actually have 00:02:42.099 --> 00:02:44.479 to be involved or elements that have to be involved 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:47.639 in choking to be experienced. So the first thing, 00:02:47.740 --> 00:02:50.360 choking under pressure, the idea of under pressure, 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:52.960 someone needs to have, there needs to be some 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:56.360 element of importance. And that importance usually 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.979 leads to anxiety. So that's the idea there. If 00:02:59.979 --> 00:03:02.530 something isn't important, to someone, then it's 00:03:02.530 --> 00:03:04.930 very likely they're not going to feel anxious 00:03:04.930 --> 00:03:06.650 and they're not going to feel under pressure. 00:03:06.789 --> 00:03:08.930 So that's the first thing. The second thing for 00:03:08.930 --> 00:03:11.849 first couple things, the second or third thing 00:03:11.849 --> 00:03:15.090 is a decrease in performance because the idea 00:03:15.090 --> 00:03:19.210 of choking is that you're struggling to get past 00:03:19.210 --> 00:03:21.949 a certain level. That's the idea of where choking 00:03:21.949 --> 00:03:25.530 came from. And then the third thing, so the underperformance 00:03:25.530 --> 00:03:28.069 or the decrease in performance needs to be there. 00:03:28.110 --> 00:03:31.060 The third or fourth thing is that individuals 00:03:31.060 --> 00:03:35.219 have to be somewhat skilled, okay? So novices, 00:03:35.419 --> 00:03:37.759 people that are just beginning, it's very difficult 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.099 to understand whether they are actually experiencing 00:03:41.099 --> 00:03:43.500 choking when it happens or a decrease in performance 00:03:43.500 --> 00:03:45.759 because it might be that they're just not skilled 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:47.819 enough to do things well and the variability 00:03:47.819 --> 00:03:51.300 of performance that you might have might fluctuate 00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:53.919 too much. So we don't necessarily know if there 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:56.199 is a decrease in performance or they just made 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:59.000 a bad shot or that sort of thing. So those are 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:01.520 the main... factors. And then, I mean, some other 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.819 experts might say another element is that you 00:04:04.819 --> 00:04:07.180 need to want to do things. You need to want to 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:09.699 perform well. We need to want to be successful. 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.000 The motivation has to be there to experience 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:14.580 choking. But generally, those three or four elements 00:04:14.580 --> 00:04:16.620 that I discussed there are probably the most 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:19.060 important elements. And those are the ones that 00:04:19.060 --> 00:04:21.540 we have in our research setting. We need to see 00:04:21.540 --> 00:04:26.819 or ask people about to be able to determine if 00:04:26.819 --> 00:04:29.910 choking has actually occurred. Feeling under 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:33.230 pressure. Some stakes have to be involved. What 00:04:33.230 --> 00:04:35.569 else? One more. A decrease in performance. Decrease 00:04:35.569 --> 00:04:39.009 in performance. There you go. Okay. So this is 00:04:39.009 --> 00:04:42.269 where the things go wrong. Would it be useful 00:04:42.269 --> 00:04:45.569 to bring the clutch definition here too? So the 00:04:45.569 --> 00:04:48.689 opposite. Clutch performance is not defined very 00:04:48.689 --> 00:04:51.449 well, I don't think, at the moment. But generally, 00:04:51.629 --> 00:04:54.689 it's, in my view, clutch performance is, again, 00:04:54.730 --> 00:04:57.850 similar to choking in that you probably need 00:04:57.850 --> 00:04:59.920 to be. under pressure, have some importance. 00:05:00.220 --> 00:05:02.899 Most of the time it's at a stage in the game 00:05:02.899 --> 00:05:07.089 or a match where it's do or die. Like it's almost 00:05:07.089 --> 00:05:10.730 there and then and that's it. So that underperformance 00:05:10.730 --> 00:05:12.930 probably needs to be there. And then some researchers 00:05:12.930 --> 00:05:15.589 would say if you maintain performance at the 00:05:15.589 --> 00:05:18.449 level that you're normally at, then that's a 00:05:18.449 --> 00:05:20.910 clutch performance because it's so pressure packed 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:23.889 that it's really important. And some people will 00:05:23.889 --> 00:05:25.889 say you have to increase some research to say 00:05:25.889 --> 00:05:27.949 you have to increase performance. But again, 00:05:28.009 --> 00:05:30.730 how can you increase performance if you're as 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:33.230 a basketball player, for example, you're taking 00:05:33.230 --> 00:05:36.970 a free throw and that's you're 80. And it's very 00:05:36.970 --> 00:05:39.029 difficult to actually say you've increased performance 00:05:39.029 --> 00:05:41.810 in that situation and you need two free throws 00:05:41.810 --> 00:05:44.689 to make to win the game for your team. So, yeah, 00:05:44.750 --> 00:05:47.110 it's difficult to say, but at least maintaining, 00:05:47.250 --> 00:05:49.290 you know, that you probably should make that 00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:51.290 free throw or those couple of free throws in 00:05:51.290 --> 00:05:53.910 that situation is probably the big thing there. 00:05:54.029 --> 00:05:56.250 So clutch is about maintaining or increasing 00:05:56.250 --> 00:05:58.430 performance under pressure, in my view. That's 00:05:58.430 --> 00:06:00.490 very interesting because you bring about the 00:06:00.490 --> 00:06:04.410 examples from team sports in Olympic weightlifting, 00:06:04.490 --> 00:06:06.970 for example. the sport where there are two lifts. 00:06:07.069 --> 00:06:09.750 There's three attempts in snatch and three attempts 00:06:09.750 --> 00:06:12.209 in clean and jerk. So it's six lifts together. 00:06:12.329 --> 00:06:14.610 That's the whole competition. It takes two hours 00:06:14.610 --> 00:06:16.970 and you become an Olympic champion at the end. 00:06:17.069 --> 00:06:20.629 So there are athletes who can perform their best 00:06:20.629 --> 00:06:24.670 ever lift. The best, is it their personal PB 00:06:24.670 --> 00:06:29.470 or personal best or world record. They are able 00:06:29.470 --> 00:06:32.550 to do it on the international stage when everyone 00:06:32.550 --> 00:06:37.439 is watching. and it is very measurable and it 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:41.360 is a high pressure situation. What kind of pressures 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.620 can influence choking? It's a great question. 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:47.680 In my view, pressure is... primarily focused 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:51.899 around social anxiety. So sport is a very social 00:06:51.899 --> 00:06:54.480 environment because you're always being watched, 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.139 even weightlifters, Olympic weightlifters, and 00:06:57.139 --> 00:06:59.139 you're being watched, you're being evaluated. 00:06:59.420 --> 00:07:03.680 Some are evaluated aesthetically on their body 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.639 changes and composition and movement, those gymnastics 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:09.459 and those types of people. Or it could be that 00:07:09.459 --> 00:07:12.060 you're being evaluated on your skill in the context 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:14.959 of just how well you perform a skill and the 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:17.060 outcome of that skill. such as basketball, free 00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:19.339 throw shooting or golf putting or anything like 00:07:19.339 --> 00:07:22.480 that. So it really is a social environment and 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:26.000 social anxiety has a big impact in my view. So 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.579 from that point of view, I think things like 00:07:28.579 --> 00:07:31.500 evaluation, like social evaluation or just being 00:07:31.500 --> 00:07:35.079 evaluated has an impact on your increase in anxiety 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:38.160 or pressure involved. So we do studies in the 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.699 context of research where we debate at the moment 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:44.439 on what pressure manipulations add more anxiety 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:47.660 to the situation. So social evaluation, competition 00:07:47.660 --> 00:07:51.480 is another thing, again, that may increase anxiety 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.579 or at least importance of the situation, competing 00:07:54.579 --> 00:07:57.259 against others or teammates or that sort of thing. 00:07:57.399 --> 00:07:59.560 What I try to do in some of the research that 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:03.519 I do is really look at observation or video camera 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:06.399 usage, tell people that they're being evaluated 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:09.860 in some way because that adds that element of 00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:13.639 social anxiety to the situation. And that really 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.899 is... In my view, that's where the anxiety comes 00:08:16.899 --> 00:08:19.920 from. Is that of evaluation or observation or 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:23.339 some sort of social atmosphere? And then also 00:08:23.339 --> 00:08:26.959 you can talk about the motivational side of if 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.360 you want to call it anxiety. And that is if you 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:31.100 say, look, we're going to give you a hundred 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:34.139 bucks if you do a successful lift, then that 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:36.759 adds a motivational value, which potentially 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:39.580 some would argue that anxiety, but I don't necessarily 00:08:39.580 --> 00:08:42.059 think it adds anxiety. I think it adds motivation 00:08:42.059 --> 00:08:45.450 more so than anything else. So that's kind of 00:08:45.450 --> 00:08:48.190 where the pressure related stuff comes from. 00:08:48.230 --> 00:08:50.870 And I really, you know, deep down believe it's 00:08:50.870 --> 00:08:53.330 related to the social anxiety that increases 00:08:53.330 --> 00:08:56.350 as a result of being evaluated or being observed 00:08:56.350 --> 00:09:00.269 with a camera or with an audience or with a team 00:09:00.269 --> 00:09:03.049 or a coach in those contexts. Would you have 00:09:03.049 --> 00:09:06.029 anything to say about time pressure? For example, 00:09:06.129 --> 00:09:08.230 in Olympic weightlifting, you have one minute 00:09:08.230 --> 00:09:10.450 clock. So you have one minute to get yourself 00:09:10.450 --> 00:09:13.110 to the platform, prepare yourself, perform. the 00:09:13.110 --> 00:09:15.429 lift, get off the platform. You have to actually 00:09:15.429 --> 00:09:17.809 start the lift within one minute. The minute 00:09:17.809 --> 00:09:20.649 you rip the bar off the floor, the timer stops. 00:09:20.889 --> 00:09:23.549 Would that be something that would add pressure? 00:09:23.710 --> 00:09:27.129 Yeah, I think in that context, because lifters 00:09:27.129 --> 00:09:29.570 know the amount of time that they have and they're 00:09:29.570 --> 00:09:31.629 probably conditioned to do that. And I would 00:09:31.629 --> 00:09:34.789 assume that in practice, they kind of do that 00:09:34.789 --> 00:09:37.350 as well. You know, have a minute to get there 00:09:37.350 --> 00:09:39.230 and get ready and that sort of thing. Probably 00:09:39.230 --> 00:09:41.070 conditioned themselves. So I wouldn't say in 00:09:41.070 --> 00:09:43.320 that context, they're... is that time pressure, 00:09:43.539 --> 00:09:47.059 but the researchers have shown that time pressure, 00:09:47.220 --> 00:09:49.320 you know, if you have five seconds on the clock, 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:52.440 as an example, to make a basket, you get a little 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:54.940 bit more that it adds some pressure and that 00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:57.779 adds some sort of anxiety, whether it is social 00:09:57.779 --> 00:10:00.320 anxiety or not. I don't think that is the case, 00:10:00.379 --> 00:10:02.419 but certainly I think time pressure does have 00:10:02.419 --> 00:10:04.620 an effect on the importance of the situation 00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:07.559 or the anxiety that might be experienced. But 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.720 again, if it's a controlled pressure, like a 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:11.700 one minute pressure that you have in. lifting. 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:13.899 Yeah, I don't necessarily know if that's a big 00:10:13.899 --> 00:10:16.100 thing unless something happens to where they 00:10:16.100 --> 00:10:19.700 have less time to get out in the arena and be 00:10:19.700 --> 00:10:22.700 able to get to the bar and lift it in that context. 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:24.600 If they know it, they have a minute every time. 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:26.200 And I don't think it adds too much pressure from 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:27.919 that point of view. Okay, awesome. Do you think 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:30.980 that there are some sports that they will create 00:10:30.980 --> 00:10:33.500 because of the rules and how they run will create 00:10:33.500 --> 00:10:36.700 more pressure versus the others? So explain that 00:10:36.700 --> 00:10:39.879 a little bit more for me. So for example, individual 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.279 versus... team sports will there be difference 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:45.779 in perceived pressure for the athlete yeah difference 00:10:45.779 --> 00:10:47.740 of perceived pressure i think there there could 00:10:47.740 --> 00:10:49.799 be again depending on what it is it could be 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:53.960 you know athletes from a monetary value money 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.679 perspective in the national football league in 00:10:56.679 --> 00:10:59.860 america you know some athletes have a an incentive 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:02.620 bonus some sort of incentive bonus like catching 00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:05.080 a certain amount of passes or whatever like that 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:07.399 that could add some sort of pressure to them 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.700 but again i think that's a little bit more motivational 00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:12.919 that is uh anxiety based but in that in that 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:15.840 context depends on the situation um but i think 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.759 in the in the context of pressure i think it 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:21.179 does you know it it links to the anxiety aspect 00:11:21.179 --> 00:11:25.259 or uh it might link to the social you know some 00:11:25.259 --> 00:11:27.919 studies have shown that friendly faces as an 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:31.389 example so family members friends in the crowd 00:11:31.389 --> 00:11:35.250 might actually lead to more pressure and anxiety 00:11:35.250 --> 00:11:37.889 than just having an audience generally. Why is 00:11:37.889 --> 00:11:41.909 that? So the suggestion is that friendly faces, 00:11:42.029 --> 00:11:45.889 they're more important, I guess, to you and that 00:11:45.889 --> 00:11:49.570 you want to show a good face for them. So some 00:11:49.570 --> 00:11:51.750 people would argue that the pressure is more 00:11:51.750 --> 00:11:56.110 intense because it matters more. to show better 00:11:56.110 --> 00:11:59.090 performance to them. I find it fascinating that 00:11:59.090 --> 00:12:02.929 you put so much weight onto the social aspect 00:12:02.929 --> 00:12:07.230 of sport. Would some people, some athletes react 00:12:07.230 --> 00:12:09.710 differently to the same situation? Would their 00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:13.350 personality play a role in how they take each 00:12:13.350 --> 00:12:16.470 of these scenarios personally? Yeah, personality 00:12:16.470 --> 00:12:19.190 has a huge factor and that's why that's kind 00:12:19.190 --> 00:12:22.129 of like... Kind of why I'm saying social anxiety 00:12:22.129 --> 00:12:25.250 has an effect and it plays a part because the 00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:28.539 more in my view. And again, this is my view and 00:12:28.539 --> 00:12:30.860 other researchers might debate me. But in my 00:12:30.860 --> 00:12:34.220 view, anything that might increase social anxiety 00:12:34.220 --> 00:12:38.399 or the anxiety of a situation, personality -based 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:42.200 might actually lead to higher anxieties in the 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:45.519 situation itself. So for example, I'll give you 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.399 a few examples. So earlier research suggested 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:51.820 that self -consciousness as an example, self 00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:55.139 -consciousness being how much you perceive other 00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:58.629 people. Either other people actually watching 00:12:58.629 --> 00:13:01.870 you or considering what you do and that sort 00:13:01.870 --> 00:13:05.879 of thing versus you. a private sort of self -consciousness 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.279 of, oh, what am I doing? How am I moving? That 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.279 sort of thing. That self -consciousness, and 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.919 people know a little bit about how self -conscious 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.440 or if you're self -conscious about, let's say 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.080 if you're out by the pool and you've got your 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.679 swimming gear on, you might be self -conscious 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:25.200 because you have your shirt off or you're in 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.840 bathers or whatever, and you might just be body 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:30.279 self -conscious. So most people would know what 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.399 sort of that means. So that actually leads to... 00:13:33.419 --> 00:13:37.120 more inclination to experience choking because 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:40.879 people become more internally focused or thinking 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:42.899 about what other people are thinking or thinking 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:45.639 about what they're actually doing in itself. 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:49.440 So that's one. Again, that leads to anxiety potentially 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.379 because you're considering what you're doing. 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:55.240 You're becoming internal more so than being external. 00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:57.639 And there's a bit of a connection between internal 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.580 and external, which we'll talk about a little 00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:02.590 bit later as well. Trade anxiety. So characteristic 00:14:02.590 --> 00:14:06.169 anxiety, the usual anxiety that you might experience 00:14:06.169 --> 00:14:09.190 in a situation. That's another one that was previously 00:14:09.190 --> 00:14:12.549 or early on investigated in relation to choking 00:14:12.549 --> 00:14:15.529 specifically. And then we have things like fear 00:14:15.529 --> 00:14:17.889 of negative evaluation. That's a little bit more 00:14:17.889 --> 00:14:20.250 recent. You know, you don't like being evaluated. 00:14:20.509 --> 00:14:23.429 You hate it, actually. And that leads to more 00:14:23.429 --> 00:14:26.470 anxiety as a result of, again, social anxiety 00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:29.409 or other things. So there are a few. We could 00:14:29.409 --> 00:14:31.830 talk about perfectionism. Again, you always want 00:14:31.830 --> 00:14:34.070 to be perfect. You want to be exact in what you 00:14:34.070 --> 00:14:37.230 do. And that tends to lead to more anxiety as 00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:39.870 well. So those are just a couple. We could probably 00:14:39.870 --> 00:14:42.649 go into a few others, but those are just a couple 00:14:42.649 --> 00:14:45.889 that sort of link to that anxiety. Anything that 00:14:45.889 --> 00:14:49.629 probably increases the propensity to being more 00:14:49.629 --> 00:14:52.929 anxious is a possible personality characteristic 00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:56.049 that can lead to choking. And we're looking at 00:14:56.049 --> 00:14:58.490 some of those things with my PhD student at the 00:14:58.490 --> 00:14:59.990 moment, some of those personality characters. 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:02.980 characteristics to see if we can potentially 00:15:02.980 --> 00:15:06.379 determine or provide a scale of the likelihood 00:15:06.379 --> 00:15:09.080 of choking in future at this stage, a personality 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:12.200 specific scale. Now, I think I need a little 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:15.940 bit more detail in internal focus versus external 00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:19.460 focus. So when there is a situation under pressure 00:15:19.460 --> 00:15:21.720 and the athlete is supposed to perform, but they 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:25.960 don't, they choke. Is it more internal or external? 00:15:26.139 --> 00:15:29.559 Is it more me being too focused on myself? of 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.820 me being to focus on what the audience will think 00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:36.269 and how I will flop in. in front of every, which 00:15:36.269 --> 00:15:39.470 one is it? Is it both? Is it one more? Is it 00:15:39.470 --> 00:15:41.629 depending on the person? Could you unpack that 00:15:41.629 --> 00:15:45.129 part a little bit? Yep. I would say it is, it 00:15:45.129 --> 00:15:48.509 can be both internal or external. This might 00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:52.190 be a good time to go into the models and the 00:15:52.190 --> 00:15:55.070 theories that we talk about. So the distraction 00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:58.149 model and the self -focus model are two models 00:15:58.149 --> 00:16:02.490 that try to explain choking under pressure. Distraction 00:16:02.490 --> 00:16:05.570 model, I'll start. with first, and that is individuals 00:16:05.570 --> 00:16:07.870 that experience choking because of distraction 00:16:07.870 --> 00:16:12.480 are potentially change their attention from task 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.399 -relevant cues and information that they should 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.759 focus on when trying to do a task or a sport 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:22.000 or some, you know, in your case, maybe a lift 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.320 of some sort? And what is important in concentration 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.480 for doing a lift? I'll ask you that question 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:29.980 first. What's important when someone is doing 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:32.860 a lift? What's important to think about when 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:35.980 performing a lift? So the heavier the lift, the 00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:39.399 less you are able to think about anything. At 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:42.720 a very skilled level, I think the more you are 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.860 able to clear your mind and maybe think about 00:16:44.860 --> 00:16:49.480 one thing, explosive or, you know, the less you 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.419 think, the better you perform. That's perfect. 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:54.879 It's a good answer because, you know, let's say 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.779 I'll call it a cue phrase or a cue word or whatever. 00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:01.120 You said one thing about one thing, explosive 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.160 or something like that. So if that is what you 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.740 normally do to get your best, your PB or your 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.140 personal best, then that is what you should be 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:12.779 doing every time. Whereas with the distraction 00:17:12.779 --> 00:17:15.200 model, if someone is anxious in both of these 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.720 models, the increase in anxiety comes first. 00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:21.140 So someone experiences anxiety, then they... 00:17:21.130 --> 00:17:23.809 They potentially get distracted. And when they 00:17:23.809 --> 00:17:25.950 get distracted, they may, instead of thinking 00:17:25.950 --> 00:17:29.369 about that explosive word, they might think about 00:17:29.369 --> 00:17:31.609 the audience. They might go external. They might 00:17:31.609 --> 00:17:33.509 think about the audience and get distracted by 00:17:33.509 --> 00:17:37.730 what is the audience thinking? What might happen? 00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:41.269 I might be embarrassed if I don't do this lift. 00:17:41.369 --> 00:17:43.970 So they think about external things outside of 00:17:43.970 --> 00:17:46.170 themselves. What is my family going to think? 00:17:46.269 --> 00:17:47.930 What are my friends and teammates going to think? 00:17:47.930 --> 00:17:50.930 Those types of things. Very external. a skill 00:17:50.930 --> 00:17:54.910 -based sport, especially, let's say in Australian 00:17:54.910 --> 00:17:58.650 football, a set shot, someone might try to kick 00:17:58.650 --> 00:18:00.630 a set shot and they might be distracted on the 00:18:00.630 --> 00:18:03.069 man on the mark. If you're Australian, if we're 00:18:03.069 --> 00:18:05.730 talking about American football, we might do 00:18:05.730 --> 00:18:08.150 a field goal. They might be distracted by someone 00:18:08.150 --> 00:18:11.009 coming in from one of the linesmen and that might 00:18:11.009 --> 00:18:13.670 be external distraction. So they may be focused 00:18:13.670 --> 00:18:16.089 on them instead. Okay. So again, the attention 00:18:16.089 --> 00:18:19.859 changes from the Q word to something extra. versus 00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:23.579 internal again same distraction focus or model 00:18:23.579 --> 00:18:26.660 but internally they might be focused on how they're 00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:30.519 feeling or they might be focused on the the sensations 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:32.940 on their body or butterflies in their stomach 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.759 or they're just distracted by physiological heart 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.460 rate pumping you know that sort of thing so really 00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.440 distracted by those things so again that's the 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:44.240 distraction model the main thing there and probably 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:46.720 in both of these models is that attention changes 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:51.259 from folk focused attention and what needs to 00:18:51.259 --> 00:18:54.440 be done to something irrelevant to performing 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:57.119 well as far as concentration is concerned. The 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.240 self -focus model is a more internalized focus 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.099 and self -focus model just says that when anxiety 00:19:04.099 --> 00:19:07.440 increases, I become more analytical and that's 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.859 where the left and right brain information comes 00:19:09.859 --> 00:19:12.779 into play. Self -focus model suggests that paralysis 00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:15.720 by analysis, you just become more analytical, 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.940 try to overthink and over... over -process information 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:24.440 about the skill itself. And that tends to override 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.420 the most powerful computer in the world, which 00:19:27.420 --> 00:19:31.299 is your brain. And again, you de -automatize 00:19:31.299 --> 00:19:34.380 what is automatic, already automatic, what you 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:36.900 should be doing without thinking, like you said, 00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:39.119 with a lift. You don't think about anything but 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.420 maybe one keyword and that's it. And in self 00:19:41.420 --> 00:19:45.059 -focus, the anxiety creates you going back to... 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.700 prior stages of learning, cognitive stages of 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:50.640 learning versus autonomous stages of learning. 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:53.980 And you go back to thinking too much about the 00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:56.819 skill rather than allowing it to happen automatically 00:19:56.819 --> 00:19:59.700 and only having one keyword in your head and 00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:01.880 not thinking about anything. Any other theories 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:05.839 you mentioned? Yeah, so I'll just quickly touch 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:08.819 on my theory. And that is it kind of links to 00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:10.579 the personality characteristics that we talked 00:20:10.579 --> 00:20:12.660 about earlier. And it's called the self -presentation 00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:15.819 model. And what I, my view is... is that the 00:20:15.819 --> 00:20:19.440 anxiety increases what is the reason for the 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:21.420 choking experience because without anxiety you 00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:24.240 don't have choking you you just have a performance 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:26.880 decrease a performance failure and that's it 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.319 but with with self -presentation model my view 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.680 is that when the the essence of being an athlete 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.660 is to perform well under pressure right if if 00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:40.039 you're an elite athlete if you don't perform 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.740 well under the pressure, then what are you? You're 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:44.680 just an athlete. You're not an elite athlete 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.359 because you can't deal with the pressure, right? 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:50.240 So my view is that the anxiety increases because 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.059 people tend to want to do well in front of others. 00:20:54.259 --> 00:20:57.380 Self -presentation is this idea that you try 00:20:57.380 --> 00:21:01.299 to do things to ensure that you provide a positive 00:21:01.299 --> 00:21:05.200 image to other people, okay? So... In that context, 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:08.559 if you don't or if you doubt that public image 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.339 is going to be a positive image, then you tend 00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:15.480 to increase anxiety and you might. be perfectionistic. 00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.440 Again, all of these personality characteristics 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:20.059 linked to this. If you're perfectionistic or 00:21:20.059 --> 00:21:23.400 if you have higher self -consciousness or any 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.519 of those factors, that exacerbates the anxiety 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.140 itself. And then what happens in my view is that, 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:32.900 and this hasn't been empirically tested yet or 00:21:32.900 --> 00:21:36.640 research focused yet, but in my view. the anxiety 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:39.720 that you increase and the self -presentation 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:42.079 concerns that you might actually have about appearing 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:45.380 really well in front of people, that leads to 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:48.839 the distraction and self -focus model theories 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:51.380 or the theories that are there because then you 00:21:51.380 --> 00:21:54.339 want to try to do your best by being too analytical 00:21:54.339 --> 00:21:56.839 in the self -focus model or you get distracted 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:01.319 by external issues or internally and that in 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:04.980 turn changes your focus from the task -relevant 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.660 stuff. to more, oh my gosh, I'm going to screw 00:22:07.660 --> 00:22:09.819 up here. Oh, what's going to happen if I mess 00:22:09.819 --> 00:22:12.460 up? And those types of things in a general sense. 00:22:12.700 --> 00:22:15.859 But you get the idea. It kind of leads from the 00:22:15.859 --> 00:22:18.039 anxiety, self -presentation concerns leads to 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:21.160 the anxiety or vice versa. And then that leads 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.640 to the theories that we talked about. Okay, I 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.140 need to ask about the perfectionism because all 00:22:27.140 --> 00:22:30.059 the athletes at the elite level will be to some 00:22:30.059 --> 00:22:32.740 extent perfectionist. If they wouldn't be, they 00:22:32.740 --> 00:22:35.559 would not get to the top. Please argue with me. 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:38.920 And how should we view that in the context of 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:42.680 choking or clutch performance? Yep. And I'm going 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:45.359 to argue with you and say, and not really argue, 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.789 but I'll say. The perfectionism is, I understand 00:22:49.789 --> 00:22:53.750 that athletes need to hone their skill. They 00:22:53.750 --> 00:22:56.750 need to be perfect in some respects, especially. 00:22:57.170 --> 00:22:59.069 Lifting is probably one of those sports where 00:22:59.069 --> 00:23:01.170 if you're not perfect, you get injured as a result. 00:23:01.269 --> 00:23:03.430 So you do have to focus on that a little bit. 00:23:03.450 --> 00:23:06.789 But there's differences between maladaptive perfectionism 00:23:06.789 --> 00:23:09.930 and adaptive perfectionism. And that is generally 00:23:09.930 --> 00:23:13.529 the idea of... Adaptive perfectionism is doing 00:23:13.529 --> 00:23:16.849 it to make sure that you are excelling in a sport, 00:23:16.990 --> 00:23:19.970 doing it so that you achieve what you want to 00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.549 achieve. And, you know, that that's the reason 00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:25.369 for that. Maladaptive perfectionism is more about 00:23:25.369 --> 00:23:28.170 I want to be perfect and I don't care if I don't 00:23:28.170 --> 00:23:30.150 care if I succeed. I would rather be perfect 00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:33.349 than succeed, if that makes sense. So you do 00:23:33.349 --> 00:23:36.410 it and you're consistently striving for perfectionism 00:23:36.410 --> 00:23:40.069 and you don't give yourself any credit when you 00:23:40.069 --> 00:23:43.230 succeed. And you don't necessarily have self 00:23:43.230 --> 00:23:45.490 -compassion for yourself. When you're not perfect. 00:23:45.549 --> 00:23:49.390 So in that context, you're focusing on the perfectionism 00:23:49.390 --> 00:23:52.930 and you're not being careful about what you say 00:23:52.930 --> 00:23:55.309 to yourself when you make mistakes. I have some 00:23:55.309 --> 00:23:58.710 idea what choking is and how it comes about. 00:23:58.970 --> 00:24:01.789 Now, can we measure it? So that is a good question. 00:24:01.849 --> 00:24:06.650 And the debate at the moment is whether the definition 00:24:06.650 --> 00:24:09.470 is... The debate is in the definition itself. 00:24:09.750 --> 00:24:12.269 We can somewhat measure it. In a real world situation, 00:24:12.730 --> 00:24:15.769 we can see that... that the context of a sports 00:24:15.769 --> 00:24:18.950 situation may tend to show that there should 00:24:18.950 --> 00:24:21.710 be anxiety in the context. So for example, the 00:24:21.710 --> 00:24:23.710 Australian Open is happening right now. When 00:24:23.710 --> 00:24:27.450 you get later into the Australian Open and later 00:24:27.450 --> 00:24:30.190 stages, there's more perceived pressure because 00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:33.490 as you go through, you get closer to winning 00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:36.269 the championship. Same thing within a game or 00:24:36.269 --> 00:24:39.190 within a map. As you get to winning a couple 00:24:39.190 --> 00:24:42.390 sets or two or three sets, in that context, you 00:24:42.390 --> 00:24:46.019 get... closer to winning the match and the perceived 00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:48.099 pressure is there. Whether it is for the athlete 00:24:48.099 --> 00:24:50.619 or not, we have to ask them. So the measurement, 00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.039 we always have to ask the question, do you have 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.240 anxiety? Or we have to measure that in some way. 00:24:56.380 --> 00:24:59.579 So measurement involves some anxiety scales, 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:02.519 or you could possibly measure it by using heart 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:05.559 rate and implied arousal level in that context. 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:08.359 So we do have to measure the anxiety. We have 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:11.079 to measure in some way the performance decrease 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:13.460 and the absorption. deserved performance decrease. 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:16.339 You know, some people debate how much of a decrease, 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.519 or I should say researchers at the moment are 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:20.660 debating how much of a decrease is a choking 00:25:20.660 --> 00:25:23.720 experience versus just an underperformance or 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:26.180 it was a bad day type of thing. But either way, 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.759 the anxiety has to be there to be choking. So 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.619 again, it depends on where you're going with 00:25:32.619 --> 00:25:35.240 that. And in a real world situation, you know, 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:38.720 one double fault as an example, maybe an experience 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.039 of choking, especially if it loses you the game. 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.440 tennis or it could just be or it could be over 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:48.099 over the course of a few games or a whole game 00:25:48.099 --> 00:25:50.900 itself so and that's the other thing to consider 00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:53.619 is how long does a choke go for that's that's 00:25:53.619 --> 00:25:55.460 the other thing it could be in golf it could 00:25:55.460 --> 00:25:58.140 be 18 holes or it could be one or two putts so 00:25:58.140 --> 00:26:00.339 it depends on what you're talking about in the 00:26:00.339 --> 00:26:03.619 context of choking and again but we have to measure 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:06.220 it via either physiological measures in anxiety 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:10.000 or self -report measures or via some sort of 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.170 observation performance decrease in most cases 00:26:13.170 --> 00:26:16.109 so is it possible for the coach knowing the athlete 00:26:16.109 --> 00:26:21.130 to read the athlete and be able to do something 00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:24.130 because you know what i'm trying to get to can 00:26:24.130 --> 00:26:27.390 we fix it can we prevent it can we stop escalation 00:26:27.390 --> 00:26:31.470 so the choking will not occur yeah i think coaches 00:26:31.470 --> 00:26:34.569 are potentially and can be potentially the best 00:26:34.569 --> 00:26:36.950 psychologist for their athlete as long as they 00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:39.970 know them well so again behaviorally if you know 00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:42.769 you're you're if you're coaching someone if you 00:26:42.769 --> 00:26:45.029 know your athlete well and you know their behaviors 00:26:45.029 --> 00:26:48.109 you will also know if they're feeling anxiety 00:26:48.109 --> 00:26:50.930 or not so for example if someone is pacing back 00:26:50.930 --> 00:26:53.390 and forth and that's unusual for that athlete 00:26:53.390 --> 00:26:56.109 let's say in lifting prior to going on they're 00:26:56.109 --> 00:26:58.190 pacing back and forth and the coach realizes 00:26:58.670 --> 00:27:02.029 and knows that they don't usually do that, and 00:27:02.029 --> 00:27:04.609 it's a sign of anxiety, then the coach can then 00:27:04.609 --> 00:27:07.890 potentially do something to calm that athlete 00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:10.309 down a little bit or say some things that might 00:27:10.309 --> 00:27:12.990 actually be able to calm that athlete down a 00:27:12.990 --> 00:27:16.150 little bit in the moment. So I think the coach 00:27:16.150 --> 00:27:19.009 can, especially behaviorally, if they know their 00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:21.049 athlete or if they want to talk to them before 00:27:21.049 --> 00:27:24.130 doing a lift in your case, then certainly they 00:27:24.130 --> 00:27:26.930 can do something about it. Can we, apart from 00:27:26.930 --> 00:27:30.240 observation, can we measure somehow the anxiety 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.779 going to or raising too far? Is it feasible to 00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:36.680 measure, I don't know, through some sensor, some 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:40.059 physiological parameters to determine that the 00:27:40.059 --> 00:27:44.140 athlete's anxiety is raising and... It's potentially 00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:46.519 raising too high and we should intervene. I would 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.859 say one of the more, well, probably one of the 00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:53.759 easier ways to measure because heart rate is 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:56.380 linked to anxiety for the most part. I mean, 00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:58.640 heart rate is quite easy to measure at the moment, 00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:00.359 especially with small watches and those types 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.039 of things, right? So that could be probably one 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.819 of the best physiological measures to use in 00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:08.140 the context of understanding someone's heart 00:28:08.140 --> 00:28:11.240 rate or someone's anxiety levels in a competition. 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:14.009 Yes, heart rate. doesn't necessarily always mean 00:28:14.009 --> 00:28:16.670 that someone is anxious. I understand that, especially 00:28:16.670 --> 00:28:19.269 if you're at the gym and you're lifting, you're 00:28:19.269 --> 00:28:20.869 not anxious, you're doing your heart rate or 00:28:20.869 --> 00:28:23.710 you're going for a run. But it does, probably 00:28:23.710 --> 00:28:25.630 heart rate is probably the one of the best measures 00:28:25.630 --> 00:28:28.250 to think about and potentially measure in a real 00:28:28.250 --> 00:28:30.529 world competition or a real world setting to 00:28:30.529 --> 00:28:32.509 be able to see if someone is a little bit more 00:28:32.509 --> 00:28:35.210 anxious. And then you can just ask the athlete 00:28:35.210 --> 00:28:37.609 if they're, you know, if you can see their heart 00:28:37.609 --> 00:28:40.049 rate is higher, ask the athlete themselves, you 00:28:40.049 --> 00:28:41.950 know, are you anxious or are you just... pumped 00:28:41.950 --> 00:28:43.890 up. Like, you know, and there are differences 00:28:43.890 --> 00:28:46.150 between anxiety and arousal. Like if someone 00:28:46.150 --> 00:28:48.269 is really jacked up and they're excited about 00:28:48.269 --> 00:28:50.549 this, you know, then that's different to being 00:28:50.549 --> 00:28:52.869 anxious and scared, as you mentioned, scared. 00:28:52.930 --> 00:28:55.670 So, and then that, I mean, again, that's an interpretation 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:58.490 as well. So the interpretation of the anxiety, 00:28:58.690 --> 00:29:01.549 similar to debilitative and facilitative anxiety, 00:29:01.809 --> 00:29:04.490 the interpretation of from the athlete is important 00:29:04.490 --> 00:29:06.829 as well. So in one competition, they might go, 00:29:06.950 --> 00:29:09.130 well, you know, I'm really excited about this 00:29:09.130 --> 00:29:11.099 because I want to do well. And then in Another 00:29:11.099 --> 00:29:13.279 different competition, they might say, well, 00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:16.559 I'm scared or I'm a bit anxious. So the coach 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:18.519 might come to them and say, you know, isn't this 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:21.200 cool? This is where you want to be. Like try 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.539 to allow them or change, we call it cognitive 00:29:23.539 --> 00:29:25.859 restructuring, change the way they think a little 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:28.220 bit too. If you know that they're anxious, maybe 00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:30.059 change the way they think so that they view it 00:29:30.059 --> 00:29:32.799 as excitement and that they have an opportunity, 00:29:32.900 --> 00:29:36.279 a more positive way to do things, opportunity 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:38.700 to do well at this competition, that sort of 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:40.640 thing. What I would expect in... some research 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:44.000 shows that maybe not necessarily heart rate but 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:46.980 anxiety over the course of let's say a week prior 00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:50.400 to a competition anxiety changes as a result 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:53.259 of how close do you get to the competition so 00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:55.759 i would say the same thing for heart rates in 00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:59.519 the context of anxiety prior to a lift so it 00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.819 might be you know you might you might track a 00:30:01.819 --> 00:30:04.400 little bit of the athlete's heart rate you know 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:07.119 prior to the competition or maybe even you know 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:09.480 during the competition or or do it do this on 00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.319 a regular basis, just to get an idea of car rates 00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.420 prior to competition and those type of things. 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:16.359 And then prior to a lift, I would expect that 00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.059 prior to the lift itself, like within the minute 00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:21.160 that you were talking about before, car rate 00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:23.960 will be at its highest prior, just prior to the 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.259 lift and in that one minute period, because they 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:27.960 should be, it could be that they're getting themselves 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.460 ready to do the lift and psyched up, or it might 00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:33.980 be that they are anxious. So it's difficult to 00:30:33.980 --> 00:30:36.019 tell in that context. You do have to talk to 00:30:36.019 --> 00:30:38.079 the athlete about what they're feeling and what 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:39.930 they're experiencing. But what we know, I just 00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:43.529 want to link this idea to, because most of the 00:30:43.529 --> 00:30:45.089 research that we talk about in choking is in 00:30:45.089 --> 00:30:47.730 skill -based sports, like golf budding and free 00:30:47.730 --> 00:30:49.390 throw shooting and those types of things. Whereas 00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:53.009 lifting and the power sports, strength -based 00:30:53.009 --> 00:30:55.809 sports, there's not as much research that we 00:30:55.809 --> 00:30:58.910 have in it. necessarily think that choking occurs 00:30:58.910 --> 00:31:01.930 as much in the strength -based sports. But I 00:31:01.930 --> 00:31:04.990 think anxiety has an effect on the sports, but 00:31:04.990 --> 00:31:07.809 we have not really researched it very well. But 00:31:07.809 --> 00:31:09.809 with that said, Laydown Sally, have you heard 00:31:09.809 --> 00:31:13.390 of Laydown Sally? I think it's 2004 Athens Olympics. 00:31:13.710 --> 00:31:16.390 She was an Australian rower in the women's eights. 00:31:16.390 --> 00:31:19.990 And some of your audience might know about them 00:31:19.990 --> 00:31:21.650 if they're Australian and they're older. She 00:31:21.650 --> 00:31:24.289 laid down in the boat with 500 meters to go. 00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:26.789 And there was a big controversy about... Her 00:31:26.789 --> 00:31:29.650 laying down in the boat and her teammates, they 00:31:29.650 --> 00:31:31.250 just wanted to throw her out of the boat pretty 00:31:31.250 --> 00:31:34.069 much because they were in metal contention. And 00:31:34.069 --> 00:31:39.529 I researched that and that issue and I investigated 00:31:39.529 --> 00:31:41.869 it and read up on it and those types of things. 00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:45.009 And in my view, she did experience choking, but 00:31:45.009 --> 00:31:47.269 it was a different type. And it might be a similar 00:31:47.269 --> 00:31:50.069 type of choking that might happen in lifting 00:31:50.069 --> 00:31:53.109 sports. And that is she exhausted herself potentially. 00:31:53.150 --> 00:31:56.529 She was so anxious before. the rowing event, 00:31:56.670 --> 00:31:59.150 and it was a final, before the rowing event that 00:31:59.150 --> 00:32:03.589 she exhausted herself mentally, which then potentially 00:32:03.589 --> 00:32:06.569 affected her ability to finish the race. And 00:32:06.569 --> 00:32:08.549 she rode as hard as she could for the first, 00:32:08.710 --> 00:32:12.130 I think it was 2 ,000 meters or 5 ,000 meters, 00:32:12.269 --> 00:32:14.730 whichever, whatever it was. Let's just say it 00:32:14.730 --> 00:32:17.450 was 2 ,000 meters. And she rode 1 ,500 meters 00:32:17.450 --> 00:32:19.970 as much as she could using all of her strength, 00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:22.549 but because of the anxiety that was experienced 00:32:22.549 --> 00:32:25.940 probably prior to and during the race. She exhausted 00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:28.940 herself physically as well. So that's where I 00:32:28.940 --> 00:32:31.319 think it might happen with lifters as well in 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:34.380 strength -based sports. And that is if you have 00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:38.759 this anxiety prior to your lifts and you don't 00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:41.559 categorize it or interpret it as excitement, 00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:44.299 that anxiety might get you in the end because 00:32:44.299 --> 00:32:47.240 of the strength that is needed, the tension that 00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:49.740 might actually be experienced as a result of 00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:52.920 the anxiety itself. Although we haven't researched 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:55.849 the strength -based... skills uh very much in 00:32:55.849 --> 00:32:59.289 choking yet but i do think that the anxiety does 00:32:59.289 --> 00:33:03.029 have an effect on the the ability to to be successful 00:33:03.029 --> 00:33:05.690 at the lifts in that context so that's what i 00:33:05.690 --> 00:33:07.589 would say going back to your question in relation 00:33:07.589 --> 00:33:09.910 to coaches you know getting an idea of their 00:33:09.910 --> 00:33:13.049 heart rate prior to you know doing the lift uh 00:33:13.049 --> 00:33:15.230 and then afterwards you said i would expect that 00:33:15.230 --> 00:33:17.910 the recovery time you know for for the heart 00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:20.690 rate going down yes it will you know just because 00:33:20.690 --> 00:33:23.789 someone is higher in anxiety or higher and heart 00:33:23.789 --> 00:33:26.109 rate, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll keep 00:33:26.109 --> 00:33:29.029 that heart rate up as a result of anxiety. I 00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:31.349 think there will be some recovery time and recovery 00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:33.809 for that heart rate as well. So yeah, just I 00:33:33.809 --> 00:33:36.009 would say, you know, for a coach, especially 00:33:36.009 --> 00:33:38.910 monitored during competitions, so that might 00:33:38.910 --> 00:33:41.630 be one way of looking at, you know, whether someone 00:33:41.630 --> 00:33:44.119 is anxious or... whether anxiety is affecting 00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:47.079 their lifts. That is, you know, track them and 00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:49.200 their heart rate at least over the course of 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:51.359 a few competitions and then ask the athlete, 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.119 were you anxious or what was going on? And get 00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.200 an idea of what's happening with the athlete 00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:58.940 themselves. Would you ask directly or would you 00:33:58.940 --> 00:34:01.480 ask something more vague, like how are you feeling? 00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:04.220 What's up? Or what are you thinking about without 00:34:04.220 --> 00:34:07.900 using the word? Anxiety. Yeah. Great, great question. 00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:10.460 And I would say, I would say, yeah, it's probably 00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:13.309 how you're feeling. Probably throughout. Some 00:34:13.309 --> 00:34:15.690 athletes don't use the word anxiety at all, though. 00:34:15.769 --> 00:34:18.349 So you do have to listen to what they say exactly 00:34:18.349 --> 00:34:21.309 and then maybe probe a little bit about what 00:34:21.309 --> 00:34:23.429 that means. Because, you know, if someone never 00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:26.269 uses the word nervousness or anxiety and doesn't 00:34:26.269 --> 00:34:27.909 want to show that to their coach, that's the 00:34:27.909 --> 00:34:29.750 other thing about the self -presentation model 00:34:29.750 --> 00:34:32.130 is, you know, you may not necessarily want to 00:34:32.130 --> 00:34:34.710 say anxiety or nervousness to your coach because 00:34:34.710 --> 00:34:37.530 then that shows weakness, especially in a strength 00:34:37.530 --> 00:34:40.309 -based sport like lifting, you know, powerlifting, 00:34:40.449 --> 00:34:42.250 that sort of thing. You don't want to show that 00:34:42.250 --> 00:34:44.570 weakness to your coach. So, you know, athletes 00:34:44.570 --> 00:34:47.289 in those sports may not necessarily use those 00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:50.110 terms either. So probably is a good idea to just 00:34:50.110 --> 00:34:52.030 say how you're feeling and just keep on, you 00:34:52.030 --> 00:34:54.210 know, that discussion and probing those ideas 00:34:54.210 --> 00:34:56.489 with them for those athletes as well. I think 00:34:56.489 --> 00:34:58.769 in Olympic weightlifting, we are very lucky because 00:34:58.769 --> 00:35:02.210 the coach -athlete relationship has a lot of 00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:04.389 time in training to develop. So coaches actually 00:35:04.389 --> 00:35:06.489 have opportunity to get to know the athletes 00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:10.849 and see how they behave at max lifts. before 00:35:10.849 --> 00:35:13.710 the competition happens. So I think we are very, 00:35:13.750 --> 00:35:17.230 very lucky in that sense. Yeah. Now we talked 00:35:17.230 --> 00:35:20.590 a little bit about measuring and preventing. 00:35:20.929 --> 00:35:25.190 Now, can we fix choking? So what to do after 00:35:25.190 --> 00:35:27.829 the choking happened? Would you have any advice? 00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.829 So if choking is occurring and you know it's 00:35:31.829 --> 00:35:35.409 choking or... Yes. Let's say there's an international 00:35:35.409 --> 00:35:38.570 level athlete. I would like him to be a lifter, 00:35:38.610 --> 00:35:41.199 but maybe you have other... examples and they 00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:44.099 had a competition and we are pretty sure that 00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:46.659 that was choking. They didn't perform as they 00:35:46.659 --> 00:35:49.400 normally would. They have a history of performing 00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:51.820 really well. This time they didn't. We think 00:35:51.820 --> 00:35:54.579 it's choking. How do we progress from here? All 00:35:54.579 --> 00:35:57.579 right. So I would ask the question, you know, 00:35:57.579 --> 00:36:01.000 going back to, so Peter Grapple and I, Peter's 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:04.719 at the University of Vienna in Austria, and Peter 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.559 and I did a systematic review of interventions 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.780 on choking and we... We focused on those that 00:36:10.780 --> 00:36:13.539 were looking at interventions related to the 00:36:13.539 --> 00:36:16.059 distraction model versus the self -focus model. 00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:18.719 So the first thing that I would do initially 00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:21.420 is I would ask the athlete what they're thinking 00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:23.860 when they were performing. You and your audience 00:36:23.860 --> 00:36:26.280 now know that there are two sides of choking. 00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:28.599 They know that there's the theories and you know 00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:32.159 that anxiety increases. So are they choking by 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:34.099 the distraction model where they're thinking 00:36:34.099 --> 00:36:36.380 about the audience or they're internalizing things 00:36:36.380 --> 00:36:38.480 and thinking about how they're feeling? feeling 00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:40.300 and that sort of thing. And they're getting distracted. 00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:43.039 They're changing from task focus to, you know, 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.500 nothing important in the relation to the task. 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:47.800 If that's the case, then you might want to use 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:50.840 focused interventions that are linked to the 00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:52.940 distraction model. OK, the distraction model, 00:36:53.059 --> 00:36:55.940 one of the only ones that has focused on the 00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:58.880 distraction model and intervention are pre -performance 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.780 routines. So you can quite easily link to this 00:37:01.780 --> 00:37:05.199 to lifting. Make sure that the lift, the lifter 00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:08.030 or the athlete in lifting is doing their routine 00:37:08.030 --> 00:37:10.889 the same the entire time the key to this routine 00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:13.170 though the ideas of the routine is that make 00:37:13.170 --> 00:37:16.429 sure their attention is on every step of the 00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:19.130 routine okay so you you give me let's give me 00:37:19.130 --> 00:37:21.449 three steps that you might ask an athlete in 00:37:21.449 --> 00:37:24.550 lifting to do prior to a lift just as an example 00:37:24.550 --> 00:37:27.469 i put a belt you put the world on then you choke 00:37:27.469 --> 00:37:30.050 your hands then you take a deep breath then you 00:37:30.050 --> 00:37:33.070 walk into the platform and touch okay so let's 00:37:33.070 --> 00:37:35.550 say there are those four things if that is usually 00:37:35.550 --> 00:37:37.969 what the athlete might actually do, do that. 00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:40.130 That's fine. But the issue with that is that 00:37:40.130 --> 00:37:43.130 if the anxiety increases and you do that automatically 00:37:43.130 --> 00:37:47.690 already, there is more attention for the athlete 00:37:47.690 --> 00:37:50.329 to think about the anxiety itself and the situation. 00:37:50.550 --> 00:37:53.789 So what I usually suggest is implement a slightly 00:37:53.789 --> 00:37:57.469 different routine when the athlete is more anxious 00:37:57.469 --> 00:37:59.750 or they, you know, they're choking. So, you know, 00:37:59.750 --> 00:38:02.550 include something that might be different. Okay. 00:38:02.670 --> 00:38:05.710 Yeah. It might be that you throw the chop down. 00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:09.000 into the chalk area in a different way or something 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:12.920 like that. So that it breaks up the automatic 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:16.340 nature of that and it makes the person think 00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:18.699 about the steps a little bit more. So routine 00:38:18.699 --> 00:38:20.820 is really good for that. Just make sure that 00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:23.619 if it is automatic already, the coach might want 00:38:23.619 --> 00:38:26.159 to include a couple other steps to make sure 00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:28.719 that they are going through each of the steps 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:32.139 and that they're focusing on the steps only rather 00:38:32.139 --> 00:38:34.860 than having attention focused on the anxiety. 00:38:35.179 --> 00:38:37.900 Does that make sense? Let's check. So would it 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:40.719 be, that's my, the routine we described before. 00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:43.320 So putting the belt on, choking, walking onto 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.039 the platform, touching the bar. That's what I 00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.719 usually do. But now the coach, just before I 00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:49.840 walk on the platform, say, when you choke your 00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.340 hands, break the choke. Because the choke is 00:38:52.340 --> 00:38:55.199 in block, let's say. So I'm like, this is weird. 00:38:55.420 --> 00:38:57.840 Okay, I have to do this. So I put the belt, I 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:00.900 walk in, then, okay, I supposed to break the 00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:04.139 choke. I break the choke. That brings me to that. 00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:06.900 Then I walk to the platform, touch the bar. Yeah. 00:39:06.980 --> 00:39:09.679 Do the same things if that's the case. Yeah. 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:12.800 You can either break the chalk or I'm assuming 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.579 there's chalk already like underneath the element. 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.400 Yeah. You could just use the granular chalk, 00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:21.639 you know, just do something different. But what 00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:24.099 I would suggest is in that context, I wouldn't 00:39:24.099 --> 00:39:26.039 spring it on them in the competition. I would 00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.539 say, look, let's practice this first. Do it a 00:39:29.539 --> 00:39:32.940 few times in practice and see, but make sure 00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:35.250 that they're... The important bit is that they're 00:39:35.250 --> 00:39:37.309 actually thinking about the steps. It's like 00:39:37.309 --> 00:39:40.150 going back cognitive stages of learning. You're 00:39:40.150 --> 00:39:42.510 actually learning the steps of the routine and 00:39:42.510 --> 00:39:44.110 you're actually thinking about those steps so 00:39:44.110 --> 00:39:48.030 that you're kind of distracted by the steps rather 00:39:48.030 --> 00:39:50.829 than focused on the anxiety itself. Does that 00:39:50.829 --> 00:39:53.030 make sense? Or the elements that could lead to 00:39:53.030 --> 00:39:56.769 anxiety. So if I'm an athlete and I'm waiting 00:39:56.769 --> 00:39:58.750 for my lift and I'm like, oh my God, there's 00:39:58.750 --> 00:40:00.809 so many people. Everyone is watching. Oh, will 00:40:00.809 --> 00:40:03.489 I do this? Will I bomb out? Will I? lift well 00:40:03.489 --> 00:40:07.070 or i'm thinking now my name is called i suppose 00:40:07.070 --> 00:40:11.530 to put my belt on could i have okay i'm catching 00:40:11.530 --> 00:40:14.130 myself thinking all these things and then i'm 00:40:14.130 --> 00:40:17.190 right that's the time to break the chalk and 00:40:17.190 --> 00:40:20.429 then i do everything thinking okay this is this 00:40:20.429 --> 00:40:23.489 is the other routine i'm having to bring myself 00:40:23.489 --> 00:40:26.869 back in yeah would that work yeah i think i think 00:40:26.869 --> 00:40:30.239 that's okay if you're thinking about a the people 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.400 and the audience and those types of things, if 00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.219 that's an external type of distraction. The main 00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:37.460 thing is that, you know, we think about mindfulness 00:40:37.460 --> 00:40:39.780 and being in the moment and those types of things. 00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:42.079 The thing is that mindfulness training actually 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.599 does work in a general sense and for sport performance. 00:40:45.860 --> 00:40:47.920 So the good thing that happens with pre -performance 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:50.920 routines is that you are mindful on each step 00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:52.699 of the way. Now, with that said, there still 00:40:52.699 --> 00:40:55.219 might be some anxiety thoughts that come in. 00:40:55.420 --> 00:40:58.320 That's okay. In mindfulness, though, you want 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.239 to accept those. thoughts that come in and just 00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:03.059 leave them let them be don't be judgmental about 00:41:03.059 --> 00:41:04.780 them or anything like that so that's kind of 00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:06.719 what you're doing if at some stage you're doing 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.639 your steps and something comes in hopefully that 00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:12.860 just passes by it kind of just you let that go 00:41:12.860 --> 00:41:15.380 which is really important and then you come back 00:41:15.380 --> 00:41:18.280 to this the next step it's okay if you have a 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:22.119 fleeting thought of the anxiety it's okay as 00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:23.880 long as you come back to the steps and even when 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:25.900 you're on the bar you know and you're gripping 00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:28.610 you know instead of automatically just going 00:41:28.610 --> 00:41:30.849 through the motions of gripping, really get a 00:41:30.849 --> 00:41:33.190 feel for the grip, like really concentrate on 00:41:33.190 --> 00:41:35.989 the grip itself. And if you have the right grip 00:41:35.989 --> 00:41:38.130 and all that, like if you don't normally do that, 00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:40.889 try to get yourself back to that point and really 00:41:40.889 --> 00:41:43.750 concentrate on the grip and then the lift itself. 00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:46.349 All right. All right. So that's good. So what 00:41:46.349 --> 00:41:48.650 we say then, if you're talking about the self 00:41:48.650 --> 00:41:50.550 -focus model, the interventions for the self 00:41:50.550 --> 00:41:53.010 -focus model, we can talk about different interventions. 00:41:53.190 --> 00:41:56.050 Like we have a thing that a colleague and I have 00:41:56.050 --> 00:42:00.369 done. on with basically left left hand ball squeezing 00:42:00.369 --> 00:42:03.690 so soft balls take a take a stress ball and you 00:42:03.690 --> 00:42:06.369 squeeze it in your left hand maybe 30 seconds 00:42:06.369 --> 00:42:10.170 for 20 or 30 seconds prior to your shot or in 00:42:10.170 --> 00:42:13.150 this case your lifts and what that does is activates 00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:16.610 the right side of your brain because it's contralateral 00:42:16.610 --> 00:42:20.670 to to what you're doing and it activates parts 00:42:20.670 --> 00:42:22.449 of your brain in your right right side of the 00:42:22.449 --> 00:42:25.789 brain and it just allows you to to be more right 00:42:25.789 --> 00:42:28.309 brained in that context more than left and then 00:42:28.309 --> 00:42:30.889 you're not thinking about the lift in that context 00:42:30.889 --> 00:42:34.369 or how to do the lift in that context uh in more 00:42:34.369 --> 00:42:36.789 depth you're not being analytical in that context 00:42:36.789 --> 00:42:40.050 so again self -focus is around being internal 00:42:40.050 --> 00:42:44.050 and being analytical uh and again the this this 00:42:44.050 --> 00:42:47.010 idea this left hand ball squeezing links to the 00:42:47.010 --> 00:42:50.010 left and right brain idea uh from that point 00:42:50.010 --> 00:42:52.289 of view so you'll probably have to especially 00:42:52.289 --> 00:42:55.469 in in strength -based sports and lifting sports 00:42:55.469 --> 00:42:57.219 you might have to play around with this a little 00:42:57.219 --> 00:42:59.559 bit because this is not yeah this is more in 00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:01.679 skill based sports that we're talking about and 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:04.639 all of the research is on largely skilled based 00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:08.179 sports as well so so this one especially you 00:43:08.179 --> 00:43:09.900 might have to play around with and you might 00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:12.739 have to you know it might be potentially just 00:43:12.739 --> 00:43:15.699 before your name is called or right where when 00:43:15.699 --> 00:43:17.900 your name is called i mean it wouldn't say right 00:43:17.900 --> 00:43:19.559 when in it because you only have 30 seconds you 00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:22.179 only have a minute right so um you know it could 00:43:22.179 --> 00:43:24.940 be that you just just squeeze the ball just prior 00:43:25.099 --> 00:43:27.780 to your lift and then as you're squeezing the 00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:30.539 the ball itself you then your name is called 00:43:30.539 --> 00:43:32.500 and then you give the ball to your coach because 00:43:32.500 --> 00:43:33.900 you obviously you can't bring it out there with 00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:37.019 you and and then then that's fine now with that 00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:39.900 said you might even do something like a squeezing 00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:43.280 motion I don't know exactly squeezing motion 00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:45.500 in the left hand, not necessarily with the right 00:43:45.500 --> 00:43:47.679 hand, because that doesn't that's probably I 00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:49.159 don't know if it's counterproductive or not. 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.099 But again, we need to think about also with these 00:43:52.099 --> 00:43:54.059 athletes, they were they were right hand athletes. 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:56.980 So we don't know if it happens, if this is actually 00:43:56.980 --> 00:43:59.420 beneficial for left handers or not as well. But 00:43:59.420 --> 00:44:02.219 again, squeeze the chalk a little bit with your 00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:05.559 left hand. And that might disrupt, if you will, 00:44:05.699 --> 00:44:08.179 the the activity in the left brain as well. So 00:44:08.179 --> 00:44:11.280 but again, it's just. For lifting, you take all 00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.460 this with a grain of salt because it's all research 00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:15.480 in the skill -based sports rather than the strength 00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:17.719 -based sports in that context. No, I love it. 00:44:17.780 --> 00:44:20.280 I love it. It's something to try. I think that 00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:23.800 because the choking experience is so personal 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:26.820 and it's not like it happens every competition. 00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:29.340 If it would, the athlete wouldn't be elite at 00:44:29.340 --> 00:44:33.699 whatever elite we define. The choking is unusual. 00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:37.739 So if we have more tools to deal with it, that's 00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:40.380 better, I think. Especially if now we know, okay, 00:44:40.460 --> 00:44:43.119 if the athlete was distracted by the audience 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:46.659 noises or over -focused on audience noises versus 00:44:46.659 --> 00:44:49.739 overthinking the lift, we have different strategies 00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:53.400 to implement. So do you have any more of these? 00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:56.840 Yeah, so for the self -focus model, we can talk 00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:59.599 about other researchers have looked at quiet 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:03.219 eye and how well you focus or how, again, skilled 00:45:03.219 --> 00:45:05.760 -based sports, how much you focus on a particular 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:09.429 target. Yeah, I think... It might be that gaze 00:45:09.429 --> 00:45:13.289 control. So looking at a particular point might 00:45:13.289 --> 00:45:16.329 actually be beneficial for lifting as well. So 00:45:16.329 --> 00:45:18.889 again, it might be also dependent on for the 00:45:18.889 --> 00:45:22.230 individual or the athlete that's doing it, but 00:45:22.230 --> 00:45:25.090 that could be beneficial. in that context as 00:45:25.090 --> 00:45:27.090 well. So just something to think about. Awesome. 00:45:27.170 --> 00:45:29.690 Did we cover all the interventions you have found 00:45:29.690 --> 00:45:31.710 in the review? Yeah, there are a couple more. 00:45:31.789 --> 00:45:34.070 I'm drawing a blank on a few of them right now. 00:45:34.170 --> 00:45:37.389 But if you do a Google search of Peter Groppel 00:45:37.389 --> 00:45:41.349 and my name, Chris Massagno, and look at choking 00:45:41.349 --> 00:45:43.349 interventions, you'll be able to find that paper. 00:45:43.429 --> 00:45:45.090 And there's just in the abstract, there's a few 00:45:45.090 --> 00:45:47.590 others that can be included as well, especially 00:45:47.590 --> 00:45:50.550 on the self -focused side of things. We can link 00:45:50.550 --> 00:45:53.769 the paper in the show notes for that. for the 00:45:53.769 --> 00:45:56.570 podcast yeah sounds good yeah great with some 00:45:57.130 --> 00:46:00.809 athletes be more prone to choking? Can we predict? 00:46:01.070 --> 00:46:04.530 So if the athlete in general is pretty anxious 00:46:04.530 --> 00:46:08.110 person, will they be more prone to choking? And 00:46:08.110 --> 00:46:11.690 if yes, would treating their anxiety in general 00:46:11.690 --> 00:46:15.329 or social anxiety help with choking? So the answer 00:46:15.329 --> 00:46:17.789 to that question is yes. There are athletes that 00:46:17.789 --> 00:46:20.150 are more prone to choking. The more anxious athletes 00:46:20.150 --> 00:46:22.449 are more prone to choking. Yes. And I would say 00:46:22.449 --> 00:46:25.329 individuals that have those that are more, let's 00:46:25.329 --> 00:46:27.889 say, perfectionistic. or have higher trait anxiety 00:46:27.889 --> 00:46:31.349 or those types of things, they are likely the 00:46:31.349 --> 00:46:33.469 ones that are more prone to choking and that, 00:46:33.510 --> 00:46:34.969 you know, individuals that are more socially 00:46:34.969 --> 00:46:37.309 anxious, if you will, they are probably more 00:46:37.309 --> 00:46:39.690 prone to choking in that context. So I would 00:46:39.690 --> 00:46:43.170 say yes, some athletes are more prone than others. 00:46:43.449 --> 00:46:46.929 Were there any studies treating anxiety in athletes 00:46:46.929 --> 00:46:51.139 that would? Yeah, so... With that said, there 00:46:51.139 --> 00:46:54.139 haven't been many counseling -related intervention 00:46:54.139 --> 00:46:57.639 studies that have looked at treating athletes. 00:46:57.860 --> 00:47:01.340 But recently, when you look at individuals that 00:47:01.340 --> 00:47:04.460 are choking susceptible, if you will, there have 00:47:04.460 --> 00:47:07.900 been some studies that have looked at acceptance 00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:11.750 and commitment therapy to actually prevent. choking 00:47:11.750 --> 00:47:14.949 specifically or rational and emotive therapy 00:47:14.949 --> 00:47:17.789 that that linked to performance under pressure 00:47:17.789 --> 00:47:20.789 specifically and have found that if you can accept 00:47:20.789 --> 00:47:22.630 and that's one of the things when I while I'm 00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:24.730 working with athletes especially if you can accept 00:47:24.730 --> 00:47:28.030 a situation and just get over it quite quickly 00:47:28.030 --> 00:47:30.869 and accept the fact that it happened or whatever 00:47:30.869 --> 00:47:33.869 that that's the best way to potentially improve 00:47:33.869 --> 00:47:36.369 performance in any circumstance even if you're 00:47:36.369 --> 00:47:38.769 anxious or when you're not anxious so acceptance 00:47:38.769 --> 00:47:41.480 therapy is actually one of the better ways of 00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:44.079 getting over choking specifically and being able 00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:46.760 to deal with that situation specifically, especially 00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:49.199 if you're in a skill -based sport where, you 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.599 know. If you have one free throw and then you 00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:53.900 can't believe you missed it. And then you have 00:47:53.900 --> 00:47:56.059 another one right after that. If you can't accept 00:47:56.059 --> 00:47:57.960 that situation, then you're probably going to 00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:00.099 miss the second one as well. So and that's probably 00:48:00.099 --> 00:48:02.119 the same thing with lifting as well. Look, I 00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:04.699 can't believe I didn't lift that weight. If someone 00:48:04.699 --> 00:48:08.639 ruminates and considers it and really is hard 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:10.800 on themselves and is not compassionate toward 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:13.230 themselves at all. about that lift, it's very 00:48:13.230 --> 00:48:14.929 likely that they're going to mess up on the next. 00:48:15.010 --> 00:48:16.909 They're not going to be successful on the next 00:48:16.909 --> 00:48:19.849 lift. You know, even if it takes 10 or 15 minutes 00:48:19.849 --> 00:48:21.889 to get back to that second lift, however long 00:48:21.889 --> 00:48:24.750 it takes for lifters to do their second or third 00:48:24.750 --> 00:48:27.809 lift in that context. So again, getting over 00:48:27.809 --> 00:48:30.289 it, accepting, and that sort of thing, it's really 00:48:30.289 --> 00:48:32.429 important to have. And then the rational and 00:48:32.429 --> 00:48:34.469 motive therapy, you know, if we're talking about 00:48:34.469 --> 00:48:36.289 that, we're talking about, you know, talking 00:48:36.289 --> 00:48:39.489 about beliefs and irrational beliefs that people 00:48:39.489 --> 00:48:42.690 might have and saying, statements like, I must 00:48:42.690 --> 00:48:46.809 get this lift right to be a good athlete instead 00:48:46.809 --> 00:48:49.550 of saying, well, I'm hoping to do well in this 00:48:49.550 --> 00:48:51.809 competition. The more irrational their belief 00:48:51.809 --> 00:48:54.789 might be, the more likely that they might experience 00:48:54.789 --> 00:48:57.269 choking as well. So it's important to think about 00:48:57.269 --> 00:49:01.110 that in that emotional sense and really try to 00:49:01.110 --> 00:49:04.809 challenge therapists or psychologists might challenge 00:49:04.809 --> 00:49:07.510 these beliefs and try to get them to be less 00:49:07.510 --> 00:49:11.579 demanding in that must situation. for the athlete. 00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:14.360 Sometimes it helps, though. We'll say with the 00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:16.039 irrational beliefs and that sort of sometimes 00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:19.000 athletes do better when they say there's irrational 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:21.500 beliefs. So it really is important to know the 00:49:21.500 --> 00:49:24.539 athlete and it's important for the athlete to 00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:27.260 know what is beneficial to them as well. Let's 00:49:27.260 --> 00:49:29.579 bring it all together. What coaches shouldn't 00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:32.940 do with their athletes. So if an athlete is actually 00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:36.239 experiencing choking or the coach suspects that 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:39.760 their athlete is experiencing choking, then one 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:42.139 thing that I emphasize, especially in skill -based 00:49:42.139 --> 00:49:47.179 sports. in competition do not over coach So what 00:49:47.179 --> 00:49:50.800 I mean by that is Barbara Tella, a sports psychologist 00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:53.519 for golfers, wrote a book called Golf is Not 00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:56.099 a Game of Perfect. And he's absolutely right 00:49:56.099 --> 00:49:59.579 because you can hit golf shots and you can hit 00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:01.699 a bad golf shot and get lucky. So the same thing 00:50:01.699 --> 00:50:05.420 is true in any sport. Whatever you're doing in 00:50:05.420 --> 00:50:07.840 a competition, it's not about being perfect. 00:50:08.099 --> 00:50:11.480 It's about doing the job to be successful. So 00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:13.639 in lifting, I would say the same thing is if 00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:17.179 the coach overcoaches and tries to get the athlete 00:50:17.179 --> 00:50:20.199 to be more analytical similar to self -focus 00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:22.179 model and the theories it's probably going to 00:50:22.179 --> 00:50:24.900 go against the athlete unless for some reason 00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:27.199 the coach and the athlete has this connection 00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:30.139 that for some reason too much coaching is a good 00:50:30.139 --> 00:50:32.639 thing so really the biggest thing that I say 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:35.719 is make sure that you in competitions yes you 00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:37.840 can coach as much as you want you can bring the 00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:40.519 analytical stuff to practice as much as you want 00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:43.639 but during competition we want the athlete to 00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:46.869 be automatic and we want the lift in this context 00:50:46.869 --> 00:50:50.409 to be automatic. So don't overcoach. Yes, maybe 00:50:50.409 --> 00:50:53.329 a couple cues to think about or for the athlete 00:50:53.329 --> 00:50:55.630 to think about is a good thing. But again, if 00:50:55.630 --> 00:50:58.369 you give them too much information and too many 00:50:58.369 --> 00:51:00.809 rules or too many thoughts or too many cues to 00:51:00.809 --> 00:51:02.489 think about during the lift, it's probably going 00:51:02.489 --> 00:51:04.610 to go against them rather than for them. Awesome. 00:51:04.630 --> 00:51:07.510 And now for athletes, would you have one piece 00:51:07.510 --> 00:51:10.530 of advice or one tip every athlete should try? 00:51:10.809 --> 00:51:14.070 To prevent choking? Yeah. Oh, wow. That's a million 00:51:14.070 --> 00:51:16.530 dollars. question because there's uh outside 00:51:16.530 --> 00:51:19.130 of the self -focus and distraction model as i've 00:51:19.130 --> 00:51:22.030 said you know debilitative anxiety versus facilitative 00:51:22.030 --> 00:51:25.250 anxiety like it really does depend on the athlete 00:51:25.250 --> 00:51:28.250 themselves but i guess if i were to say one thing 00:51:28.250 --> 00:51:31.690 that you know goes for the every athlete in a 00:51:31.690 --> 00:51:35.010 choking situation and and that is do not change 00:51:35.010 --> 00:51:39.710 your successful concentration focus during competition 00:51:39.710 --> 00:51:43.519 no matter what So if you know the concentration 00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:47.079 cues and you know the best concentration that 00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:49.780 leads to successful performance for you, try 00:51:49.780 --> 00:51:53.380 not to change that focus at all. So even, you 00:51:53.380 --> 00:51:55.639 know, if you get more anxious, try to notice 00:51:55.639 --> 00:51:58.300 that your attention focuses to something else. 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:02.159 If it does in that context, usually, and in most 00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:04.699 cases with choking, the athlete tends to shift 00:52:04.699 --> 00:52:07.300 their focus. So to something irrelevant, whether 00:52:07.300 --> 00:52:11.860 it be internally to an analyze. the shot or analyzing 00:52:11.860 --> 00:52:14.800 the the skill or externally to other people's 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.960 thoughts whatever it is focus on what you need 00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:20.780 to focus on to be successful and you should know 00:52:20.780 --> 00:52:22.960 what that is when you're practicing so if it 00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:26.079 is in a skill -based sport if it is the the target 00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:29.880 or if it is one cue that gets you to be successful 00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:32.079 to concentrate on then focus on that all the 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:34.900 time and don't change that focus try to be as 00:52:34.900 --> 00:52:37.800 the same in mindset every time and you should 00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:41.670 be okay with the outcome Awesome. So we learned 00:52:41.670 --> 00:52:43.849 a lot. I think we have way better understanding 00:52:43.849 --> 00:52:48.130 what choking is and how to manage it or how to 00:52:48.130 --> 00:52:51.050 potentially prevent it. Two questions to finish. 00:52:51.210 --> 00:52:53.630 The first one is what is your favorite exercise? 00:52:54.210 --> 00:52:58.969 Gym related. I don't mind a squat or just basic 00:52:58.969 --> 00:53:02.289 running. I do like crab crawls every once in 00:53:02.289 --> 00:53:05.190 a while. I feel pretty energetic whenever I do 00:53:05.190 --> 00:53:08.929 those. So yeah, anything physical in the gym. 00:53:08.909 --> 00:53:11.449 gym or outside of the gym, such as sports or 00:53:11.449 --> 00:53:13.429 anything like that, I'm happy to at least try 00:53:13.429 --> 00:53:15.849 once. Although there are some exercises that 00:53:15.849 --> 00:53:18.809 I just absolutely do not like. But yeah, I go 00:53:18.809 --> 00:53:21.590 to the gym a few days a week. So I'm happy to 00:53:21.590 --> 00:53:24.230 do any exercises that I'm suggested to do. But 00:53:24.230 --> 00:53:26.010 those are some of them that I like to do. If 00:53:26.010 --> 00:53:28.110 you could cancel one exercise for everyone in 00:53:28.110 --> 00:53:30.269 the world forever, which one would it be? Cancel 00:53:30.269 --> 00:53:33.380 it, like just have them not do it at all. Yeah, 00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:36.920 it disappears from human consciousness forever. 00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:40.480 Oh, wow. Probably a deadlift. Really? Yeah, I 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:44.079 cannot do them and I don't like them. Although 00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.619 they are beneficial for the legs and other things. 00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:52.280 But yeah, probably not one that I'm fond of very 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:54.900 much. I think I should switch this question of 00:53:54.900 --> 00:53:57.659 a favorite exercise to the hated one. That's 00:53:57.659 --> 00:54:01.099 more fun. It probably is. I would probably say 00:54:01.099 --> 00:54:03.300 that that's probably fun for... the athletes 00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:06.119 and the lifters in the crowd as well too. So 00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:09.300 probably resonates well for some of them. Yes, 00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:11.800 yes. Okay, and the last question is where people 00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:14.920 can find you online if they want to follow your 00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:17.280 work, see what you're up to, see your newest 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:19.440 research or ask a question? Where should they 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:22.239 go? Yeah, so there's a few places. Victoria University 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:25.559 website is definitely the starting point. Just 00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:28.940 look up my name on the website and you can find 00:54:28.940 --> 00:54:31.980 my researcher profile there. You can find what 00:54:31.980 --> 00:54:34.900 I do and some of the publications that I have 00:54:34.900 --> 00:54:39.269 there as well. I'm also on X or Twitter. at C. 00:54:39.570 --> 00:54:42.489 Massagno. So again, Google my name if you can 00:54:42.489 --> 00:54:46.630 spell the surname correctly. And then also ResearchGate. 00:54:46.650 --> 00:54:48.650 I'm on ResearchGate as well. That's where you 00:54:48.650 --> 00:54:51.349 can find most of my current publications, that 00:54:51.349 --> 00:54:54.010 context as well. So feel free to check me out 00:54:54.010 --> 00:54:56.409 in those spaces. And I'm more than happy to get 00:54:56.409 --> 00:54:58.809 involved with any discussions for the most part 00:54:58.809 --> 00:55:01.289 with people, especially if it's related to choking 00:55:01.289 --> 00:55:03.789 specifically. Thank you so much, Chris. A pleasure. 00:55:04.030 --> 00:55:05.090 All right. Thanks for having me.