The biggest thing that I say is make sure that
you, in competitions, yes, you can coach as much
as you want. You can bring the analytical stuff
to practice as much as you want. But during competition,
we want the athlete to be automatic and we want
the lift in this context to be automatic. So
don't overcoach. Hi, Chris. It's my pleasure
to have you on Evidence Strong Show. Please briefly
introduce yourself. All right. I'm Chris Massagno.
I'm an associate. professor at Victoria University.
And I'm an expert, if you want to say that, in
sport and exercise psychology and mainly choking
under pressure researcher generally. And as you
can tell from a little bit from my accent, I
didn't necessarily grow up in Australia. Did
a couple degrees at the University of Florida.
I have to say that. Go Gators, by the way. And
then came to Australia in 2002 to do my PhD and
stayed in Australia, in Melbourne, Australia
from there on out. So this is where I'm at. Also,
I mean, we're talking chalky today, so let's
start with a little bit background. So what happens
in the brain during... extreme pressures. And
let's keep it for our audience in sports context.
Yeah. So in the brain, for brain functioning,
I would say I'm going to focus a little bit more
on left and right brain rather than more of the
biological stuff within the brain, because we
don't necessarily know a lot about that right
now. But what we know generally is that when
choking is experienced, and some may debate me
on this in relation to left versus right brain
and whether it actually exists or not. But more
recently in the last... 10 years or so, we've
found that individuals that experience choking
are more focused on, well, the brain functioning
focuses on the left hemisphere of the brain where
you get too analytical and you don't necessarily
let things flow and become automatic in that
context. So brain activation is more increased
in the left hemisphere of the brain and not necessarily
the right hemisphere. And there's not much connectivity
and discussion, if you will, between the left
and right. part of the brain when pressure is
on. So again, many of the choking experiences
or individuals that actually experience choking,
they become a little bit more analytical, start
thinking too much instead of allowing things
to happen automatically and getting away from
the creative side of their brain generally, which
is the right side of the brain in a general sense.
All right. I think we need the choking definition
to be sure what we are talking about. for us
to be on the same page. So what exactly choking
in sports is? All right. Instead of giving you
a research -based definition, I'm going to give
you characteristics instead that actually have
to be involved or elements that have to be involved
in choking to be experienced. So the first thing,
choking under pressure, the idea of under pressure,
someone needs to have, there needs to be some
element of importance. And that importance usually
leads to anxiety. So that's the idea there. If
something isn't important, to someone, then it's
very likely they're not going to feel anxious
and they're not going to feel under pressure.
So that's the first thing. The second thing for
first couple things, the second or third thing
is a decrease in performance because the idea
of choking is that you're struggling to get past
a certain level. That's the idea of where choking
came from. And then the third thing, so the underperformance
or the decrease in performance needs to be there.
The third or fourth thing is that individuals
have to be somewhat skilled, okay? So novices,
people that are just beginning, it's very difficult
to understand whether they are actually experiencing
choking when it happens or a decrease in performance
because it might be that they're just not skilled
enough to do things well and the variability
of performance that you might have might fluctuate
too much. So we don't necessarily know if there
is a decrease in performance or they just made
a bad shot or that sort of thing. So those are
the main... factors. And then, I mean, some other
experts might say another element is that you
need to want to do things. You need to want to
perform well. We need to want to be successful.
The motivation has to be there to experience
choking. But generally, those three or four elements
that I discussed there are probably the most
important elements. And those are the ones that
we have in our research setting. We need to see
or ask people about to be able to determine if
choking has actually occurred. Feeling under
pressure. Some stakes have to be involved. What
else? One more. A decrease in performance. Decrease
in performance. There you go. Okay. So this is
where the things go wrong. Would it be useful
to bring the clutch definition here too? So the
opposite. Clutch performance is not defined very
well, I don't think, at the moment. But generally,
it's, in my view, clutch performance is, again,
similar to choking in that you probably need
to be. under pressure, have some importance.
Most of the time it's at a stage in the game
or a match where it's do or die. Like it's almost
there and then and that's it. So that underperformance
probably needs to be there. And then some researchers
would say if you maintain performance at the
level that you're normally at, then that's a
clutch performance because it's so pressure packed
that it's really important. And some people will
say you have to increase some research to say
you have to increase performance. But again,
how can you increase performance if you're as
a basketball player, for example, you're taking
a free throw and that's you're 80. And it's very
difficult to actually say you've increased performance
in that situation and you need two free throws
to make to win the game for your team. So, yeah,
it's difficult to say, but at least maintaining,
you know, that you probably should make that
free throw or those couple of free throws in
that situation is probably the big thing there.
So clutch is about maintaining or increasing
performance under pressure, in my view. That's
very interesting because you bring about the
examples from team sports in Olympic weightlifting,
for example. the sport where there are two lifts.
There's three attempts in snatch and three attempts
in clean and jerk. So it's six lifts together.
That's the whole competition. It takes two hours
and you become an Olympic champion at the end.
So there are athletes who can perform their best
ever lift. The best, is it their personal PB
or personal best or world record. They are able
to do it on the international stage when everyone
is watching. and it is very measurable and it
is a high pressure situation. What kind of pressures
can influence choking? It's a great question.
In my view, pressure is... primarily focused
around social anxiety. So sport is a very social
environment because you're always being watched,
even weightlifters, Olympic weightlifters, and
you're being watched, you're being evaluated.
Some are evaluated aesthetically on their body
changes and composition and movement, those gymnastics
and those types of people. Or it could be that
you're being evaluated on your skill in the context
of just how well you perform a skill and the
outcome of that skill. such as basketball, free
throw shooting or golf putting or anything like
that. So it really is a social environment and
social anxiety has a big impact in my view. So
from that point of view, I think things like
evaluation, like social evaluation or just being
evaluated has an impact on your increase in anxiety
or pressure involved. So we do studies in the
context of research where we debate at the moment
on what pressure manipulations add more anxiety
to the situation. So social evaluation, competition
is another thing, again, that may increase anxiety
or at least importance of the situation, competing
against others or teammates or that sort of thing.
What I try to do in some of the research that
I do is really look at observation or video camera
usage, tell people that they're being evaluated
in some way because that adds that element of
social anxiety to the situation. And that really
is... In my view, that's where the anxiety comes
from. Is that of evaluation or observation or
some sort of social atmosphere? And then also
you can talk about the motivational side of if
you want to call it anxiety. And that is if you
say, look, we're going to give you a hundred
bucks if you do a successful lift, then that
adds a motivational value, which potentially
some would argue that anxiety, but I don't necessarily
think it adds anxiety. I think it adds motivation
more so than anything else. So that's kind of
where the pressure related stuff comes from.
And I really, you know, deep down believe it's
related to the social anxiety that increases
as a result of being evaluated or being observed
with a camera or with an audience or with a team
or a coach in those contexts. Would you have
anything to say about time pressure? For example,
in Olympic weightlifting, you have one minute
clock. So you have one minute to get yourself
to the platform, prepare yourself, perform. the
lift, get off the platform. You have to actually
start the lift within one minute. The minute
you rip the bar off the floor, the timer stops.
Would that be something that would add pressure?
Yeah, I think in that context, because lifters
know the amount of time that they have and they're
probably conditioned to do that. And I would
assume that in practice, they kind of do that
as well. You know, have a minute to get there
and get ready and that sort of thing. Probably
conditioned themselves. So I wouldn't say in
that context, they're... is that time pressure,
but the researchers have shown that time pressure,
you know, if you have five seconds on the clock,
as an example, to make a basket, you get a little
bit more that it adds some pressure and that
adds some sort of anxiety, whether it is social
anxiety or not. I don't think that is the case,
but certainly I think time pressure does have
an effect on the importance of the situation
or the anxiety that might be experienced. But
again, if it's a controlled pressure, like a
one minute pressure that you have in. lifting.
Yeah, I don't necessarily know if that's a big
thing unless something happens to where they
have less time to get out in the arena and be
able to get to the bar and lift it in that context.
If they know it, they have a minute every time.
And I don't think it adds too much pressure from
that point of view. Okay, awesome. Do you think
that there are some sports that they will create
because of the rules and how they run will create
more pressure versus the others? So explain that
a little bit more for me. So for example, individual
versus... team sports will there be difference
in perceived pressure for the athlete yeah difference
of perceived pressure i think there there could
be again depending on what it is it could be
you know athletes from a monetary value money
perspective in the national football league in
america you know some athletes have a an incentive
bonus some sort of incentive bonus like catching
a certain amount of passes or whatever like that
that could add some sort of pressure to them
but again i think that's a little bit more motivational
that is uh anxiety based but in that in that
context depends on the situation um but i think
in the in the context of pressure i think it
does you know it it links to the anxiety aspect
or uh it might link to the social you know some
studies have shown that friendly faces as an
example so family members friends in the crowd
might actually lead to more pressure and anxiety
than just having an audience generally. Why is
that? So the suggestion is that friendly faces,
they're more important, I guess, to you and that
you want to show a good face for them. So some
people would argue that the pressure is more
intense because it matters more. to show better
performance to them. I find it fascinating that
you put so much weight onto the social aspect
of sport. Would some people, some athletes react
differently to the same situation? Would their
personality play a role in how they take each
of these scenarios personally? Yeah, personality
has a huge factor and that's why that's kind
of like... Kind of why I'm saying social anxiety
has an effect and it plays a part because the
more in my view. And again, this is my view and
other researchers might debate me. But in my
view, anything that might increase social anxiety
or the anxiety of a situation, personality -based
might actually lead to higher anxieties in the
situation itself. So for example, I'll give you
a few examples. So earlier research suggested
that self -consciousness as an example, self
-consciousness being how much you perceive other
people. Either other people actually watching
you or considering what you do and that sort
of thing versus you. a private sort of self -consciousness
of, oh, what am I doing? How am I moving? That
sort of thing. That self -consciousness, and
people know a little bit about how self -conscious
or if you're self -conscious about, let's say
if you're out by the pool and you've got your
swimming gear on, you might be self -conscious
because you have your shirt off or you're in
bathers or whatever, and you might just be body
self -conscious. So most people would know what
sort of that means. So that actually leads to...
more inclination to experience choking because
people become more internally focused or thinking
about what other people are thinking or thinking
about what they're actually doing in itself.
So that's one. Again, that leads to anxiety potentially
because you're considering what you're doing.
You're becoming internal more so than being external.
And there's a bit of a connection between internal
and external, which we'll talk about a little
bit later as well. Trade anxiety. So characteristic
anxiety, the usual anxiety that you might experience
in a situation. That's another one that was previously
or early on investigated in relation to choking
specifically. And then we have things like fear
of negative evaluation. That's a little bit more
recent. You know, you don't like being evaluated.
You hate it, actually. And that leads to more
anxiety as a result of, again, social anxiety
or other things. So there are a few. We could
talk about perfectionism. Again, you always want
to be perfect. You want to be exact in what you
do. And that tends to lead to more anxiety as
well. So those are just a couple. We could probably
go into a few others, but those are just a couple
that sort of link to that anxiety. Anything that
probably increases the propensity to being more
anxious is a possible personality characteristic
that can lead to choking. And we're looking at
some of those things with my PhD student at the
moment, some of those personality characters.
characteristics to see if we can potentially
determine or provide a scale of the likelihood
of choking in future at this stage, a personality
specific scale. Now, I think I need a little
bit more detail in internal focus versus external
focus. So when there is a situation under pressure
and the athlete is supposed to perform, but they
don't, they choke. Is it more internal or external?
Is it more me being too focused on myself? of
me being to focus on what the audience will think
and how I will flop in. in front of every, which
one is it? Is it both? Is it one more? Is it
depending on the person? Could you unpack that
part a little bit? Yep. I would say it is, it
can be both internal or external. This might
be a good time to go into the models and the
theories that we talk about. So the distraction
model and the self -focus model are two models
that try to explain choking under pressure. Distraction
model, I'll start. with first, and that is individuals
that experience choking because of distraction
are potentially change their attention from task
-relevant cues and information that they should
focus on when trying to do a task or a sport
or some, you know, in your case, maybe a lift
of some sort? And what is important in concentration
for doing a lift? I'll ask you that question
first. What's important when someone is doing
a lift? What's important to think about when
performing a lift? So the heavier the lift, the
less you are able to think about anything. At
a very skilled level, I think the more you are
able to clear your mind and maybe think about
one thing, explosive or, you know, the less you
think, the better you perform. That's perfect.
It's a good answer because, you know, let's say
I'll call it a cue phrase or a cue word or whatever.
You said one thing about one thing, explosive
or something like that. So if that is what you
normally do to get your best, your PB or your
personal best, then that is what you should be
doing every time. Whereas with the distraction
model, if someone is anxious in both of these
models, the increase in anxiety comes first.
So someone experiences anxiety, then they...
They potentially get distracted. And when they
get distracted, they may, instead of thinking
about that explosive word, they might think about
the audience. They might go external. They might
think about the audience and get distracted by
what is the audience thinking? What might happen?
I might be embarrassed if I don't do this lift.
So they think about external things outside of
themselves. What is my family going to think?
What are my friends and teammates going to think?
Those types of things. Very external. a skill
-based sport, especially, let's say in Australian
football, a set shot, someone might try to kick
a set shot and they might be distracted on the
man on the mark. If you're Australian, if we're
talking about American football, we might do
a field goal. They might be distracted by someone
coming in from one of the linesmen and that might
be external distraction. So they may be focused
on them instead. Okay. So again, the attention
changes from the Q word to something extra. versus
internal again same distraction focus or model
but internally they might be focused on how they're
feeling or they might be focused on the the sensations
on their body or butterflies in their stomach
or they're just distracted by physiological heart
rate pumping you know that sort of thing so really
distracted by those things so again that's the
distraction model the main thing there and probably
in both of these models is that attention changes
from folk focused attention and what needs to
be done to something irrelevant to performing
well as far as concentration is concerned. The
self -focus model is a more internalized focus
and self -focus model just says that when anxiety
increases, I become more analytical and that's
where the left and right brain information comes
into play. Self -focus model suggests that paralysis
by analysis, you just become more analytical,
try to overthink and over... over -process information
about the skill itself. And that tends to override
the most powerful computer in the world, which
is your brain. And again, you de -automatize
what is automatic, already automatic, what you
should be doing without thinking, like you said,
with a lift. You don't think about anything but
maybe one keyword and that's it. And in self
-focus, the anxiety creates you going back to...
prior stages of learning, cognitive stages of
learning versus autonomous stages of learning.
And you go back to thinking too much about the
skill rather than allowing it to happen automatically
and only having one keyword in your head and
not thinking about anything. Any other theories
you mentioned? Yeah, so I'll just quickly touch
on my theory. And that is it kind of links to
the personality characteristics that we talked
about earlier. And it's called the self -presentation
model. And what I, my view is... is that the
anxiety increases what is the reason for the
choking experience because without anxiety you
don't have choking you you just have a performance
decrease a performance failure and that's it
but with with self -presentation model my view
is that when the the essence of being an athlete
is to perform well under pressure right if if
you're an elite athlete if you don't perform
well under the pressure, then what are you? You're
just an athlete. You're not an elite athlete
because you can't deal with the pressure, right?
So my view is that the anxiety increases because
people tend to want to do well in front of others.
Self -presentation is this idea that you try
to do things to ensure that you provide a positive
image to other people, okay? So... In that context,
if you don't or if you doubt that public image
is going to be a positive image, then you tend
to increase anxiety and you might. be perfectionistic.
Again, all of these personality characteristics
linked to this. If you're perfectionistic or
if you have higher self -consciousness or any
of those factors, that exacerbates the anxiety
itself. And then what happens in my view is that,
and this hasn't been empirically tested yet or
research focused yet, but in my view. the anxiety
that you increase and the self -presentation
concerns that you might actually have about appearing
really well in front of people, that leads to
the distraction and self -focus model theories
or the theories that are there because then you
want to try to do your best by being too analytical
in the self -focus model or you get distracted
by external issues or internally and that in
turn changes your focus from the task -relevant
stuff. to more, oh my gosh, I'm going to screw
up here. Oh, what's going to happen if I mess
up? And those types of things in a general sense.
But you get the idea. It kind of leads from the
anxiety, self -presentation concerns leads to
the anxiety or vice versa. And then that leads
to the theories that we talked about. Okay, I
need to ask about the perfectionism because all
the athletes at the elite level will be to some
extent perfectionist. If they wouldn't be, they
would not get to the top. Please argue with me.
And how should we view that in the context of
choking or clutch performance? Yep. And I'm going
to argue with you and say, and not really argue,
but I'll say. The perfectionism is, I understand
that athletes need to hone their skill. They
need to be perfect in some respects, especially.
Lifting is probably one of those sports where
if you're not perfect, you get injured as a result.
So you do have to focus on that a little bit.
But there's differences between maladaptive perfectionism
and adaptive perfectionism. And that is generally
the idea of... Adaptive perfectionism is doing
it to make sure that you are excelling in a sport,
doing it so that you achieve what you want to
achieve. And, you know, that that's the reason
for that. Maladaptive perfectionism is more about
I want to be perfect and I don't care if I don't
care if I succeed. I would rather be perfect
than succeed, if that makes sense. So you do
it and you're consistently striving for perfectionism
and you don't give yourself any credit when you
succeed. And you don't necessarily have self
-compassion for yourself. When you're not perfect.
So in that context, you're focusing on the perfectionism
and you're not being careful about what you say
to yourself when you make mistakes. I have some
idea what choking is and how it comes about.
Now, can we measure it? So that is a good question.
And the debate at the moment is whether the definition
is... The debate is in the definition itself.
We can somewhat measure it. In a real world situation,
we can see that... that the context of a sports
situation may tend to show that there should
be anxiety in the context. So for example, the
Australian Open is happening right now. When
you get later into the Australian Open and later
stages, there's more perceived pressure because
as you go through, you get closer to winning
the championship. Same thing within a game or
within a map. As you get to winning a couple
sets or two or three sets, in that context, you
get... closer to winning the match and the perceived
pressure is there. Whether it is for the athlete
or not, we have to ask them. So the measurement,
we always have to ask the question, do you have
anxiety? Or we have to measure that in some way.
So measurement involves some anxiety scales,
or you could possibly measure it by using heart
rate and implied arousal level in that context.
So we do have to measure the anxiety. We have
to measure in some way the performance decrease
and the absorption. deserved performance decrease.
You know, some people debate how much of a decrease,
or I should say researchers at the moment are
debating how much of a decrease is a choking
experience versus just an underperformance or
it was a bad day type of thing. But either way,
the anxiety has to be there to be choking. So
again, it depends on where you're going with
that. And in a real world situation, you know,
one double fault as an example, maybe an experience
of choking, especially if it loses you the game.
tennis or it could just be or it could be over
over the course of a few games or a whole game
itself so and that's the other thing to consider
is how long does a choke go for that's that's
the other thing it could be in golf it could
be 18 holes or it could be one or two putts so
it depends on what you're talking about in the
context of choking and again but we have to measure
it via either physiological measures in anxiety
or self -report measures or via some sort of
observation performance decrease in most cases
so is it possible for the coach knowing the athlete
to read the athlete and be able to do something
because you know what i'm trying to get to can
we fix it can we prevent it can we stop escalation
so the choking will not occur yeah i think coaches
are potentially and can be potentially the best
psychologist for their athlete as long as they
know them well so again behaviorally if you know
you're you're if you're coaching someone if you
know your athlete well and you know their behaviors
you will also know if they're feeling anxiety
or not so for example if someone is pacing back
and forth and that's unusual for that athlete
let's say in lifting prior to going on they're
pacing back and forth and the coach realizes
and knows that they don't usually do that, and
it's a sign of anxiety, then the coach can then
potentially do something to calm that athlete
down a little bit or say some things that might
actually be able to calm that athlete down a
little bit in the moment. So I think the coach
can, especially behaviorally, if they know their
athlete or if they want to talk to them before
doing a lift in your case, then certainly they
can do something about it. Can we, apart from
observation, can we measure somehow the anxiety
going to or raising too far? Is it feasible to
measure, I don't know, through some sensor, some
physiological parameters to determine that the
athlete's anxiety is raising and... It's potentially
raising too high and we should intervene. I would
say one of the more, well, probably one of the
easier ways to measure because heart rate is
linked to anxiety for the most part. I mean,
heart rate is quite easy to measure at the moment,
especially with small watches and those types
of things, right? So that could be probably one
of the best physiological measures to use in
the context of understanding someone's heart
rate or someone's anxiety levels in a competition.
Yes, heart rate. doesn't necessarily always mean
that someone is anxious. I understand that, especially
if you're at the gym and you're lifting, you're
not anxious, you're doing your heart rate or
you're going for a run. But it does, probably
heart rate is probably the one of the best measures
to think about and potentially measure in a real
world competition or a real world setting to
be able to see if someone is a little bit more
anxious. And then you can just ask the athlete
if they're, you know, if you can see their heart
rate is higher, ask the athlete themselves, you
know, are you anxious or are you just... pumped
up. Like, you know, and there are differences
between anxiety and arousal. Like if someone
is really jacked up and they're excited about
this, you know, then that's different to being
anxious and scared, as you mentioned, scared.
So, and then that, I mean, again, that's an interpretation
as well. So the interpretation of the anxiety,
similar to debilitative and facilitative anxiety,
the interpretation of from the athlete is important
as well. So in one competition, they might go,
well, you know, I'm really excited about this
because I want to do well. And then in Another
different competition, they might say, well,
I'm scared or I'm a bit anxious. So the coach
might come to them and say, you know, isn't this
cool? This is where you want to be. Like try
to allow them or change, we call it cognitive
restructuring, change the way they think a little
bit too. If you know that they're anxious, maybe
change the way they think so that they view it
as excitement and that they have an opportunity,
a more positive way to do things, opportunity
to do well at this competition, that sort of
thing. What I would expect in... some research
shows that maybe not necessarily heart rate but
anxiety over the course of let's say a week prior
to a competition anxiety changes as a result
of how close do you get to the competition so
i would say the same thing for heart rates in
the context of anxiety prior to a lift so it
might be you know you might you might track a
little bit of the athlete's heart rate you know
prior to the competition or maybe even you know
during the competition or or do it do this on
a regular basis, just to get an idea of car rates
prior to competition and those type of things.
And then prior to a lift, I would expect that
prior to the lift itself, like within the minute
that you were talking about before, car rate
will be at its highest prior, just prior to the
lift and in that one minute period, because they
should be, it could be that they're getting themselves
ready to do the lift and psyched up, or it might
be that they are anxious. So it's difficult to
tell in that context. You do have to talk to
the athlete about what they're feeling and what
they're experiencing. But what we know, I just
want to link this idea to, because most of the
research that we talk about in choking is in
skill -based sports, like golf budding and free
throw shooting and those types of things. Whereas
lifting and the power sports, strength -based
sports, there's not as much research that we
have in it. necessarily think that choking occurs
as much in the strength -based sports. But I
think anxiety has an effect on the sports, but
we have not really researched it very well. But
with that said, Laydown Sally, have you heard
of Laydown Sally? I think it's 2004 Athens Olympics.
She was an Australian rower in the women's eights.
And some of your audience might know about them
if they're Australian and they're older. She
laid down in the boat with 500 meters to go.
And there was a big controversy about... Her
laying down in the boat and her teammates, they
just wanted to throw her out of the boat pretty
much because they were in metal contention. And
I researched that and that issue and I investigated
it and read up on it and those types of things.
And in my view, she did experience choking, but
it was a different type. And it might be a similar
type of choking that might happen in lifting
sports. And that is she exhausted herself potentially.
She was so anxious before. the rowing event,
and it was a final, before the rowing event that
she exhausted herself mentally, which then potentially
affected her ability to finish the race. And
she rode as hard as she could for the first,
I think it was 2 ,000 meters or 5 ,000 meters,
whichever, whatever it was. Let's just say it
was 2 ,000 meters. And she rode 1 ,500 meters
as much as she could using all of her strength,
but because of the anxiety that was experienced
probably prior to and during the race. She exhausted
herself physically as well. So that's where I
think it might happen with lifters as well in
strength -based sports. And that is if you have
this anxiety prior to your lifts and you don't
categorize it or interpret it as excitement,
that anxiety might get you in the end because
of the strength that is needed, the tension that
might actually be experienced as a result of
the anxiety itself. Although we haven't researched
the strength -based... skills uh very much in
choking yet but i do think that the anxiety does
have an effect on the the ability to to be successful
at the lifts in that context so that's what i
would say going back to your question in relation
to coaches you know getting an idea of their
heart rate prior to you know doing the lift uh
and then afterwards you said i would expect that
the recovery time you know for for the heart
rate going down yes it will you know just because
someone is higher in anxiety or higher and heart
rate, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll keep
that heart rate up as a result of anxiety. I
think there will be some recovery time and recovery
for that heart rate as well. So yeah, just I
would say, you know, for a coach, especially
monitored during competitions, so that might
be one way of looking at, you know, whether someone
is anxious or... whether anxiety is affecting
their lifts. That is, you know, track them and
their heart rate at least over the course of
a few competitions and then ask the athlete,
were you anxious or what was going on? And get
an idea of what's happening with the athlete
themselves. Would you ask directly or would you
ask something more vague, like how are you feeling?
What's up? Or what are you thinking about without
using the word? Anxiety. Yeah. Great, great question.
And I would say, I would say, yeah, it's probably
how you're feeling. Probably throughout. Some
athletes don't use the word anxiety at all, though.
So you do have to listen to what they say exactly
and then maybe probe a little bit about what
that means. Because, you know, if someone never
uses the word nervousness or anxiety and doesn't
want to show that to their coach, that's the
other thing about the self -presentation model
is, you know, you may not necessarily want to
say anxiety or nervousness to your coach because
then that shows weakness, especially in a strength
-based sport like lifting, you know, powerlifting,
that sort of thing. You don't want to show that
weakness to your coach. So, you know, athletes
in those sports may not necessarily use those
terms either. So probably is a good idea to just
say how you're feeling and just keep on, you
know, that discussion and probing those ideas
with them for those athletes as well. I think
in Olympic weightlifting, we are very lucky because
the coach -athlete relationship has a lot of
time in training to develop. So coaches actually
have opportunity to get to know the athletes
and see how they behave at max lifts. before
the competition happens. So I think we are very,
very lucky in that sense. Yeah. Now we talked
a little bit about measuring and preventing.
Now, can we fix choking? So what to do after
the choking happened? Would you have any advice?
So if choking is occurring and you know it's
choking or... Yes. Let's say there's an international
level athlete. I would like him to be a lifter,
but maybe you have other... examples and they
had a competition and we are pretty sure that
that was choking. They didn't perform as they
normally would. They have a history of performing
really well. This time they didn't. We think
it's choking. How do we progress from here? All
right. So I would ask the question, you know,
going back to, so Peter Grapple and I, Peter's
at the University of Vienna in Austria, and Peter
and I did a systematic review of interventions
on choking and we... We focused on those that
were looking at interventions related to the
distraction model versus the self -focus model.
So the first thing that I would do initially
is I would ask the athlete what they're thinking
when they were performing. You and your audience
now know that there are two sides of choking.
They know that there's the theories and you know
that anxiety increases. So are they choking by
the distraction model where they're thinking
about the audience or they're internalizing things
and thinking about how they're feeling? feeling
and that sort of thing. And they're getting distracted.
They're changing from task focus to, you know,
nothing important in the relation to the task.
If that's the case, then you might want to use
focused interventions that are linked to the
distraction model. OK, the distraction model,
one of the only ones that has focused on the
distraction model and intervention are pre -performance
routines. So you can quite easily link to this
to lifting. Make sure that the lift, the lifter
or the athlete in lifting is doing their routine
the same the entire time the key to this routine
though the ideas of the routine is that make
sure their attention is on every step of the
routine okay so you you give me let's give me
three steps that you might ask an athlete in
lifting to do prior to a lift just as an example
i put a belt you put the world on then you choke
your hands then you take a deep breath then you
walk into the platform and touch okay so let's
say there are those four things if that is usually
what the athlete might actually do, do that.
That's fine. But the issue with that is that
if the anxiety increases and you do that automatically
already, there is more attention for the athlete
to think about the anxiety itself and the situation.
So what I usually suggest is implement a slightly
different routine when the athlete is more anxious
or they, you know, they're choking. So, you know,
include something that might be different. Okay.
Yeah. It might be that you throw the chop down.
into the chalk area in a different way or something
like that. So that it breaks up the automatic
nature of that and it makes the person think
about the steps a little bit more. So routine
is really good for that. Just make sure that
if it is automatic already, the coach might want
to include a couple other steps to make sure
that they are going through each of the steps
and that they're focusing on the steps only rather
than having attention focused on the anxiety.
Does that make sense? Let's check. So would it
be, that's my, the routine we described before.
So putting the belt on, choking, walking onto
the platform, touching the bar. That's what I
usually do. But now the coach, just before I
walk on the platform, say, when you choke your
hands, break the choke. Because the choke is
in block, let's say. So I'm like, this is weird.
Okay, I have to do this. So I put the belt, I
walk in, then, okay, I supposed to break the
choke. I break the choke. That brings me to that.
Then I walk to the platform, touch the bar. Yeah.
Do the same things if that's the case. Yeah.
You can either break the chalk or I'm assuming
there's chalk already like underneath the element.
Yeah. You could just use the granular chalk,
you know, just do something different. But what
I would suggest is in that context, I wouldn't
spring it on them in the competition. I would
say, look, let's practice this first. Do it a
few times in practice and see, but make sure
that they're... The important bit is that they're
actually thinking about the steps. It's like
going back cognitive stages of learning. You're
actually learning the steps of the routine and
you're actually thinking about those steps so
that you're kind of distracted by the steps rather
than focused on the anxiety itself. Does that
make sense? Or the elements that could lead to
anxiety. So if I'm an athlete and I'm waiting
for my lift and I'm like, oh my God, there's
so many people. Everyone is watching. Oh, will
I do this? Will I bomb out? Will I? lift well
or i'm thinking now my name is called i suppose
to put my belt on could i have okay i'm catching
myself thinking all these things and then i'm
right that's the time to break the chalk and
then i do everything thinking okay this is this
is the other routine i'm having to bring myself
back in yeah would that work yeah i think i think
that's okay if you're thinking about a the people
and the audience and those types of things, if
that's an external type of distraction. The main
thing is that, you know, we think about mindfulness
and being in the moment and those types of things.
The thing is that mindfulness training actually
does work in a general sense and for sport performance.
So the good thing that happens with pre -performance
routines is that you are mindful on each step
of the way. Now, with that said, there still
might be some anxiety thoughts that come in.
That's okay. In mindfulness, though, you want
to accept those. thoughts that come in and just
leave them let them be don't be judgmental about
them or anything like that so that's kind of
what you're doing if at some stage you're doing
your steps and something comes in hopefully that
just passes by it kind of just you let that go
which is really important and then you come back
to this the next step it's okay if you have a
fleeting thought of the anxiety it's okay as
long as you come back to the steps and even when
you're on the bar you know and you're gripping
you know instead of automatically just going
through the motions of gripping, really get a
feel for the grip, like really concentrate on
the grip itself. And if you have the right grip
and all that, like if you don't normally do that,
try to get yourself back to that point and really
concentrate on the grip and then the lift itself.
All right. All right. So that's good. So what
we say then, if you're talking about the self
-focus model, the interventions for the self
-focus model, we can talk about different interventions.
Like we have a thing that a colleague and I have
done. on with basically left left hand ball squeezing
so soft balls take a take a stress ball and you
squeeze it in your left hand maybe 30 seconds
for 20 or 30 seconds prior to your shot or in
this case your lifts and what that does is activates
the right side of your brain because it's contralateral
to to what you're doing and it activates parts
of your brain in your right right side of the
brain and it just allows you to to be more right
brained in that context more than left and then
you're not thinking about the lift in that context
or how to do the lift in that context uh in more
depth you're not being analytical in that context
so again self -focus is around being internal
and being analytical uh and again the this this
idea this left hand ball squeezing links to the
left and right brain idea uh from that point
of view so you'll probably have to especially
in in strength -based sports and lifting sports
you might have to play around with this a little
bit because this is not yeah this is more in
skill based sports that we're talking about and
all of the research is on largely skilled based
sports as well so so this one especially you
might have to play around with and you might
have to you know it might be potentially just
before your name is called or right where when
your name is called i mean it wouldn't say right
when in it because you only have 30 seconds you
only have a minute right so um you know it could
be that you just just squeeze the ball just prior
to your lift and then as you're squeezing the
the ball itself you then your name is called
and then you give the ball to your coach because
you obviously you can't bring it out there with
you and and then then that's fine now with that
said you might even do something like a squeezing
motion I don't know exactly squeezing motion
in the left hand, not necessarily with the right
hand, because that doesn't that's probably I
don't know if it's counterproductive or not.
But again, we need to think about also with these
athletes, they were they were right hand athletes.
So we don't know if it happens, if this is actually
beneficial for left handers or not as well. But
again, squeeze the chalk a little bit with your
left hand. And that might disrupt, if you will,
the the activity in the left brain as well. So
but again, it's just. For lifting, you take all
this with a grain of salt because it's all research
in the skill -based sports rather than the strength
-based sports in that context. No, I love it.
I love it. It's something to try. I think that
because the choking experience is so personal
and it's not like it happens every competition.
If it would, the athlete wouldn't be elite at
whatever elite we define. The choking is unusual.
So if we have more tools to deal with it, that's
better, I think. Especially if now we know, okay,
if the athlete was distracted by the audience
noises or over -focused on audience noises versus
overthinking the lift, we have different strategies
to implement. So do you have any more of these?
Yeah, so for the self -focus model, we can talk
about other researchers have looked at quiet
eye and how well you focus or how, again, skilled
-based sports, how much you focus on a particular
target. Yeah, I think... It might be that gaze
control. So looking at a particular point might
actually be beneficial for lifting as well. So
again, it might be also dependent on for the
individual or the athlete that's doing it, but
that could be beneficial. in that context as
well. So just something to think about. Awesome.
Did we cover all the interventions you have found
in the review? Yeah, there are a couple more.
I'm drawing a blank on a few of them right now.
But if you do a Google search of Peter Groppel
and my name, Chris Massagno, and look at choking
interventions, you'll be able to find that paper.
And there's just in the abstract, there's a few
others that can be included as well, especially
on the self -focused side of things. We can link
the paper in the show notes for that. for the
podcast yeah sounds good yeah great with some
athletes be more prone to choking? Can we predict?
So if the athlete in general is pretty anxious
person, will they be more prone to choking? And
if yes, would treating their anxiety in general
or social anxiety help with choking? So the answer
to that question is yes. There are athletes that
are more prone to choking. The more anxious athletes
are more prone to choking. Yes. And I would say
individuals that have those that are more, let's
say, perfectionistic. or have higher trait anxiety
or those types of things, they are likely the
ones that are more prone to choking and that,
you know, individuals that are more socially
anxious, if you will, they are probably more
prone to choking in that context. So I would
say yes, some athletes are more prone than others.
Were there any studies treating anxiety in athletes
that would? Yeah, so... With that said, there
haven't been many counseling -related intervention
studies that have looked at treating athletes.
But recently, when you look at individuals that
are choking susceptible, if you will, there have
been some studies that have looked at acceptance
and commitment therapy to actually prevent. choking
specifically or rational and emotive therapy
that that linked to performance under pressure
specifically and have found that if you can accept
and that's one of the things when I while I'm
working with athletes especially if you can accept
a situation and just get over it quite quickly
and accept the fact that it happened or whatever
that that's the best way to potentially improve
performance in any circumstance even if you're
anxious or when you're not anxious so acceptance
therapy is actually one of the better ways of
getting over choking specifically and being able
to deal with that situation specifically, especially
if you're in a skill -based sport where, you
know. If you have one free throw and then you
can't believe you missed it. And then you have
another one right after that. If you can't accept
that situation, then you're probably going to
miss the second one as well. So and that's probably
the same thing with lifting as well. Look, I
can't believe I didn't lift that weight. If someone
ruminates and considers it and really is hard
on themselves and is not compassionate toward
themselves at all. about that lift, it's very
likely that they're going to mess up on the next.
They're not going to be successful on the next
lift. You know, even if it takes 10 or 15 minutes
to get back to that second lift, however long
it takes for lifters to do their second or third
lift in that context. So again, getting over
it, accepting, and that sort of thing, it's really
important to have. And then the rational and
motive therapy, you know, if we're talking about
that, we're talking about, you know, talking
about beliefs and irrational beliefs that people
might have and saying, statements like, I must
get this lift right to be a good athlete instead
of saying, well, I'm hoping to do well in this
competition. The more irrational their belief
might be, the more likely that they might experience
choking as well. So it's important to think about
that in that emotional sense and really try to
challenge therapists or psychologists might challenge
these beliefs and try to get them to be less
demanding in that must situation. for the athlete.
Sometimes it helps, though. We'll say with the
irrational beliefs and that sort of sometimes
athletes do better when they say there's irrational
beliefs. So it really is important to know the
athlete and it's important for the athlete to
know what is beneficial to them as well. Let's
bring it all together. What coaches shouldn't
do with their athletes. So if an athlete is actually
experiencing choking or the coach suspects that
their athlete is experiencing choking, then one
thing that I emphasize, especially in skill -based
sports. in competition do not over coach So what
I mean by that is Barbara Tella, a sports psychologist
for golfers, wrote a book called Golf is Not
a Game of Perfect. And he's absolutely right
because you can hit golf shots and you can hit
a bad golf shot and get lucky. So the same thing
is true in any sport. Whatever you're doing in
a competition, it's not about being perfect.
It's about doing the job to be successful. So
in lifting, I would say the same thing is if
the coach overcoaches and tries to get the athlete
to be more analytical similar to self -focus
model and the theories it's probably going to
go against the athlete unless for some reason
the coach and the athlete has this connection
that for some reason too much coaching is a good
thing so really the biggest thing that I say
is make sure that you in competitions yes you
can coach as much as you want you can bring the
analytical stuff to practice as much as you want
but during competition we want the athlete to
be automatic and we want the lift in this context
to be automatic. So don't overcoach. Yes, maybe
a couple cues to think about or for the athlete
to think about is a good thing. But again, if
you give them too much information and too many
rules or too many thoughts or too many cues to
think about during the lift, it's probably going
to go against them rather than for them. Awesome.
And now for athletes, would you have one piece
of advice or one tip every athlete should try?
To prevent choking? Yeah. Oh, wow. That's a million
dollars. question because there's uh outside
of the self -focus and distraction model as i've
said you know debilitative anxiety versus facilitative
anxiety like it really does depend on the athlete
themselves but i guess if i were to say one thing
that you know goes for the every athlete in a
choking situation and and that is do not change
your successful concentration focus during competition
no matter what So if you know the concentration
cues and you know the best concentration that
leads to successful performance for you, try
not to change that focus at all. So even, you
know, if you get more anxious, try to notice
that your attention focuses to something else.
If it does in that context, usually, and in most
cases with choking, the athlete tends to shift
their focus. So to something irrelevant, whether
it be internally to an analyze. the shot or analyzing
the the skill or externally to other people's
thoughts whatever it is focus on what you need
to focus on to be successful and you should know
what that is when you're practicing so if it
is in a skill -based sport if it is the the target
or if it is one cue that gets you to be successful
to concentrate on then focus on that all the
time and don't change that focus try to be as
the same in mindset every time and you should
be okay with the outcome Awesome. So we learned
a lot. I think we have way better understanding
what choking is and how to manage it or how to
potentially prevent it. Two questions to finish.
The first one is what is your favorite exercise?
Gym related. I don't mind a squat or just basic
running. I do like crab crawls every once in
a while. I feel pretty energetic whenever I do
those. So yeah, anything physical in the gym.
gym or outside of the gym, such as sports or
anything like that, I'm happy to at least try
once. Although there are some exercises that
I just absolutely do not like. But yeah, I go
to the gym a few days a week. So I'm happy to
do any exercises that I'm suggested to do. But
those are some of them that I like to do. If
you could cancel one exercise for everyone in
the world forever, which one would it be? Cancel
it, like just have them not do it at all. Yeah,
it disappears from human consciousness forever.
Oh, wow. Probably a deadlift. Really? Yeah, I
cannot do them and I don't like them. Although
they are beneficial for the legs and other things.
But yeah, probably not one that I'm fond of very
much. I think I should switch this question of
a favorite exercise to the hated one. That's
more fun. It probably is. I would probably say
that that's probably fun for... the athletes
and the lifters in the crowd as well too. So
probably resonates well for some of them. Yes,
yes. Okay, and the last question is where people
can find you online if they want to follow your
work, see what you're up to, see your newest
research or ask a question? Where should they
go? Yeah, so there's a few places. Victoria University
website is definitely the starting point. Just
look up my name on the website and you can find
my researcher profile there. You can find what
I do and some of the publications that I have
there as well. I'm also on X or Twitter. at C.
Massagno. So again, Google my name if you can
spell the surname correctly. And then also ResearchGate.
I'm on ResearchGate as well. That's where you
can find most of my current publications, that
context as well. So feel free to check me out
in those spaces. And I'm more than happy to get
involved with any discussions for the most part
with people, especially if it's related to choking
specifically. Thank you so much, Chris. A pleasure.
All right. Thanks for having me.