WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.899 For somebody who is considering using anabolics 00:00:02.899 --> 00:00:05.280 of any type or PEDs of any type, you need to 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.339 do an honest accounting with yourself as to the 00:00:08.339 --> 00:00:10.800 level of competition you want to go to and are 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.080 willing to invest financially time -wise, et 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:18.089 cetera, to get to. Hi, Luke. It's my pleasure 00:00:18.089 --> 00:00:20.629 to have you on Evidence Strong Show. If you could 00:00:20.629 --> 00:00:22.850 briefly introduce yourself. Absolutely. My name 00:00:22.850 --> 00:00:25.570 is Luke Pelton. I am an assistant professor of 00:00:25.570 --> 00:00:28.350 exercise science and the human performance lab 00:00:28.350 --> 00:00:30.870 coordinator in the Department of Exercise Science 00:00:30.870 --> 00:00:33.210 at Springfield College in Springfield, Massachusetts. 00:00:33.789 --> 00:00:37.689 Okay. And the topic of today is anabolic androgenic 00:00:37.689 --> 00:00:40.509 steroids. So we need some kind of definition 00:00:40.509 --> 00:00:44.229 and explanation what these are. Absolutely. So 00:00:44.229 --> 00:00:47.710 anabolic... Androgenic steroids, which for the 00:00:47.710 --> 00:00:50.390 purpose of everybody listening and myself talking, 00:00:50.509 --> 00:00:52.789 we're going to simply refer to as steroids for 00:00:52.789 --> 00:00:56.530 the purpose of this discussion. They are exogenous 00:00:56.530 --> 00:00:59.469 synthetic congeners of testosterone or other 00:00:59.469 --> 00:01:02.090 androgens. So what that means simply is they 00:01:02.090 --> 00:01:04.769 are not things we're producing internally, though 00:01:04.769 --> 00:01:07.170 testosterone and other androgens are. These are 00:01:07.170 --> 00:01:09.859 kind of facsimiles or copies. that we're making 00:01:09.859 --> 00:01:12.400 in a lab. We're synthesizing them to either directly 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:15.920 mimic testosterone or to mimic certain aspects 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:18.560 or augment certain aspects of what androgens 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.599 do in the body. So they are chemically derived 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.859 versions of usually testosterone and its derivative 00:01:24.859 --> 00:01:27.159 dihydrotestosterone. Those are two of the most 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:30.219 prevalent androgens in the body, which do a myriad 00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:33.700 of things we associate with performance in strength 00:01:33.700 --> 00:01:35.640 and physique sports, muscle tissue, et cetera. 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:36.980 And there are different versions that will be 00:01:36.980 --> 00:01:39.200 tweaked chemically out of variety. of capacities 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:41.939 to exert different effects on certain tissues 00:01:41.939 --> 00:01:45.739 or certain receptors or certain times, etc. So 00:01:45.739 --> 00:01:47.000 that's kind of what we're talking about in this 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:49.439 discussion. Okay. And to have a full background, 00:01:49.620 --> 00:01:54.560 we need to know what the function of this externally 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:58.159 supplied steroids would be in the body. And maybe 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:01.579 if you could bring what we know specifically 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:05.040 on the human body and what is known from other 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:07.950 research in animal studies or something. what 00:02:07.950 --> 00:02:10.569 they call short considerations. Right. So in 00:02:10.569 --> 00:02:13.710 the human body, testosterone and androgens, they're 00:02:13.710 --> 00:02:17.789 responsible really truly for a system wide. myriad 00:02:17.789 --> 00:02:20.490 of effects. They kind of act as neurotransmitters 00:02:20.490 --> 00:02:23.750 in a way in the brain and in our neurology. What 00:02:23.750 --> 00:02:27.229 they are most known for probably is for primary 00:02:27.229 --> 00:02:30.289 and secondary male secondary sexual characteristics. 00:02:30.330 --> 00:02:33.310 So what these include are primary characteristics, 00:02:33.449 --> 00:02:37.330 so the spermatogenesis and male fertility, and 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:39.169 then secondary characteristics would be things 00:02:39.169 --> 00:02:42.590 that either support reproduction or are kind 00:02:42.590 --> 00:02:45.289 of inherently linked. to those pubertal years 00:02:45.289 --> 00:02:49.710 so uh things like the thickening of facial hair 00:02:49.710 --> 00:02:52.889 and body hair. We could think about deepening 00:02:52.889 --> 00:02:54.849 of the voice, enlargement of the vocal cords, 00:02:55.030 --> 00:02:56.650 broadening of the shoulder girdle, increased 00:02:56.650 --> 00:02:58.610 muscle mass, which is what we're going to spend 00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:00.469 a lot of time today talking about, I'm sure, 00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:03.030 and other various reproductive linked functions. 00:03:03.169 --> 00:03:05.530 So we call a lot of those the androgenic effects. 00:03:05.590 --> 00:03:07.710 So that word androgen keeps coming up, come from 00:03:07.710 --> 00:03:09.550 the Greek andro meaning male. The counterpart 00:03:09.550 --> 00:03:12.270 would be gyno meaning female in the Greek as 00:03:12.270 --> 00:03:14.189 well. So, you know, one of those things I mentioned 00:03:14.189 --> 00:03:16.819 was that testosterone. and dihydro, testosterone, 00:03:17.060 --> 00:03:19.900 other androgens do in the body is they help with 00:03:19.900 --> 00:03:22.539 anabolism. They're anabolic as well, which is 00:03:22.539 --> 00:03:24.639 where we get the other half of the term anabolic 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:27.879 androgenic steroids. So what they are used for 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:31.400 the most in sport performance and physique is 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:34.509 for building muscle mass. and muscle strength. 00:03:34.810 --> 00:03:38.030 Now, I smiled internally at the second part of 00:03:38.030 --> 00:03:39.949 your question is what do we know from human studies 00:03:39.949 --> 00:03:42.490 and what do we know from sort of everything else? 00:03:42.629 --> 00:03:45.650 And the good news is we do know quite a bit from 00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:48.770 human trials. The tricky part is we don't know 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:52.009 enough and we know a lot from other animal studies. 00:03:52.129 --> 00:03:54.969 Some of the kind of formative research we have. 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:57.599 on the mechanistic side of testosterone, how 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:00.699 it exerts its effects, how it induces anabolism 00:04:00.699 --> 00:04:03.099 on certain tissues, etc. A lot of it comes from 00:04:03.099 --> 00:04:05.159 the rodent models and a lot comes from chicken 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:08.259 research and cows as well. The reason being certain 00:04:08.259 --> 00:04:11.080 compounds were actually developed to improve 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.500 muscle mass anabolism, so protein accretion in 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:16.839 livestock animals. So if you can feed an animal 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:19.660 less and have it produce more meat from a capitalist 00:04:19.660 --> 00:04:21.819 perspective, that is more beneficial to a degree. 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:24.540 So in a way, we kind of think, oh, I wouldn't 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:26.199 think. that at first, but that does make sense 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:27.959 about what we're trying to do with a person, 00:04:28.060 --> 00:04:29.879 which is if we think about a physique athlete 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:32.199 toward the tail end of a bodybuilding prep, they 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:33.639 are consuming fewer calories, but they want to 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:35.459 maintain or build muscle mass during that time 00:04:35.459 --> 00:04:38.379 as well. So much of the research comes from that 00:04:38.379 --> 00:04:41.459 area. One of the most notorious steroids, Trenbolone, 00:04:41.540 --> 00:04:44.279 actually came out of cattle. So it was developed 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.079 as a supplement to cattle feed where they could 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:48.839 feed them less, but they would maintain or grow 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:51.360 mean tissue. during that time period, so never 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:54.639 approved for human use. Many of these have been, 00:04:54.660 --> 00:04:57.199 so we do have quite a bit of research on things 00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:59.540 like oxandrolone, which is known more commonly 00:04:59.540 --> 00:05:03.240 as Anovar, on testosterone and its various ester 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.180 derivatives and whatnot, where these were used 00:05:05.180 --> 00:05:08.899 as medicinal agents and still are for a variety 00:05:08.899 --> 00:05:11.620 of purposes. Anovar was developed to combat wasting 00:05:11.620 --> 00:05:14.720 diseases in children, so things like muscular 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.120 dystrophy, etc. The side effects are very minimal 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.339 because of that, because it was meant to be. 00:05:19.339 --> 00:05:21.879 be tolerated in a youth population. If you kind 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:24.759 of look through the research, they first started 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.399 identifying testosterone as an exogenous agent 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:29.899 back in the 30s. And shortly after that, it was, 00:05:29.899 --> 00:05:32.420 oh, performance might be benefited from these 00:05:32.420 --> 00:05:35.300 as well. So during that kind of kind of Perry 00:05:35.300 --> 00:05:38.660 World War II years from the 30s into the 50s 00:05:38.660 --> 00:05:41.899 and beyond, they were readily used by a lot of 00:05:41.899 --> 00:05:44.959 Eastern Bloc countries, East Germany, Soviet 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.339 Union, etc. And a lot of our kind of additional 00:05:47.339 --> 00:05:50.379 knowledge came from that. Obviously not the breadth 00:05:50.379 --> 00:05:53.439 nor dosing protocols that we have today. It was 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:58.180 with 1975 when... They were banned from Olympic 00:05:58.180 --> 00:06:01.500 use. And then 1990, the United States and various 00:06:01.500 --> 00:06:03.319 other places around the world, they were now 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.339 illicit illegal compounds. So not even just couldn't 00:06:06.339 --> 00:06:08.459 be used in sport, but now could not be possessed 00:06:08.459 --> 00:06:11.420 with intent to distribute or use, et cetera, 00:06:11.500 --> 00:06:13.439 or sell. So much of the research that we've had 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:15.800 to go off of in the last few decades has been 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.379 from rodent models, either rat or mouse. Again, 00:06:18.459 --> 00:06:20.379 some of the more kind of livestock driven models 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:22.939 as well. This can make it a little tricky to 00:06:22.939 --> 00:06:25.920 then apply directly to a human subject. As many 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:27.680 of the listeners I'm sure know, the difference 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.000 between a rodent and a human is substantial. 00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:32.819 Mechanistically, maybe not, but it still is not 00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:35.720 a direct one -to -one. So if we think about things 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:39.680 like the genomic action of testosterone or other 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.680 androgens. So in your cell, you have an androgen 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.319 that's going through the blood. And in order 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.019 to do anything, it has to interact first and 00:06:48.019 --> 00:06:50.620 foremost with an androgen receptor. So it'll 00:06:50.620 --> 00:06:53.060 bind to that receptor. It'll translocate. to 00:06:53.060 --> 00:06:55.060 the cell nucleus, which is where your DNA is. 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:57.699 It will then bind to specific regions on the 00:06:57.699 --> 00:07:00.360 DNA, and that is what drives anabolism. So it'll 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:02.839 cause the manufacture of new proteins, mainly 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:05.040 things like myosin and actin and other contractile 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:07.180 muscle proteins, which will then contribute to 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:09.420 muscle size, strength, et cetera. And you can 00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:11.899 apply this to whatever the effects of the androgen 00:07:11.899 --> 00:07:14.480 are at any tissue throughout the body. But obviously 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.040 we're talking a lot about muscle strength and 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.040 mass in this talk here. There's some other non 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:20.480 -genomic actions as well. Some of these could 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:22.720 be through things like the G. protein complex 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:25.300 receptor, which is a complex on the cell membrane, 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:27.839 which initiates a variety of secondary signaling 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.459 cascades throughout the cell. And this is where 00:07:30.459 --> 00:07:33.319 our knowledge gets a little bit murky. actually. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.699 So we know that we could see an increase in intracellular 00:07:36.699 --> 00:07:39.000 calcium levels because of this. And if we think 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:40.699 about a muscle contraction, calcium is going 00:07:40.699 --> 00:07:44.259 to be hugely important for the initiation and 00:07:44.259 --> 00:07:46.139 continuation of that contraction. So we could 00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:48.620 see how a transit increase in calcium levels 00:07:48.620 --> 00:07:51.319 would be beneficial for strength. We're not so 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:54.480 sure about what that means for long -term hypertrophic 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:56.540 effects though. So those kind of non -genomic 00:07:56.540 --> 00:07:59.120 actions, that's where we're sort of still guessing 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:01.439 in terms of what is the human mechanism responsible 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:04.050 for that. There's a variety of other things like 00:08:04.050 --> 00:08:06.490 tissue selectivity. So you have a variety of 00:08:06.490 --> 00:08:09.350 tissues in the body. Androgens will have different 00:08:09.350 --> 00:08:12.310 effects at different tissues. Many steroids were 00:08:12.310 --> 00:08:15.009 manufactured or tweaked in a certain way chemically 00:08:15.009 --> 00:08:17.550 to interact preferentially with certain tissues 00:08:17.550 --> 00:08:21.410 or without. Would you have an example? Yes. So 00:08:21.410 --> 00:08:23.829 I want to think about oral versus injectable. 00:08:24.170 --> 00:08:26.189 Steroids is probably the broadest example of 00:08:26.189 --> 00:08:28.129 something that the listener might be most familiar 00:08:28.129 --> 00:08:32.230 with. So injectable steroids will be the androgen, 00:08:32.289 --> 00:08:35.210 possibly with a fatty acid ester attached to 00:08:35.210 --> 00:08:37.470 it, so a tail. And the longer that tail is, the 00:08:37.470 --> 00:08:40.090 more time it takes to cleave off. And then the 00:08:40.090 --> 00:08:42.330 compound is active for longer in the system. 00:08:42.450 --> 00:08:45.090 So you could have something, if we see like testosterone 00:08:45.090 --> 00:08:48.470 propionate, it's a very, very short tail. Testosterone 00:08:48.470 --> 00:08:50.549 suspension actually would have no tail and be 00:08:50.549 --> 00:08:52.789 absorbed into the muscle almost immediately. 00:08:53.450 --> 00:08:55.269 And then the longer tail, things like sipionate 00:08:55.269 --> 00:08:58.149 and enanthate, that would cause it to take longer 00:08:58.149 --> 00:09:00.750 to be metabolized and it exerts effects over 00:09:00.750 --> 00:09:03.289 a longer time period in the body. Oral steroids, 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:04.909 we usually have something like a methyl group 00:09:04.909 --> 00:09:09.009 attached to it where it slows down its metabolism 00:09:09.009 --> 00:09:12.049 in the liver. So it exerts its effects much stronger 00:09:12.049 --> 00:09:14.590 than a normal drug would. The downside being 00:09:14.590 --> 00:09:17.789 now we have liver toxicity, hepatotoxicity to 00:09:17.789 --> 00:09:19.929 be concerned about. So a lot of the times, anything 00:09:19.929 --> 00:09:22.309 that we're consuming orally. being processed 00:09:22.309 --> 00:09:25.330 by the liver, liver toxicity is a concern for 00:09:25.330 --> 00:09:28.330 the use of oral steroids. So a lot of these compounds 00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:32.070 have been in the last few years, you could, depends 00:09:32.070 --> 00:09:33.850 on which way you look at it, it could be considered 00:09:33.850 --> 00:09:36.590 a performance enhancing drive or to get around 00:09:36.590 --> 00:09:38.389 drug testing, depending on what side of the coin 00:09:38.389 --> 00:09:40.669 you're kind of looking at it from. These compounds 00:09:40.669 --> 00:09:42.870 have been, designer steroids, been formulated. 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:46.320 to take advantage of how they're metabolized 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.620 and used in the body so they can have more potent 00:09:48.620 --> 00:09:51.659 effects in strength and performance. So the game 00:09:51.659 --> 00:09:55.440 is how to get the compound safely to the tissue 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:59.279 you want and let it act for the time you want 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:04.889 it to be acting. From a purely educational perspective, 00:10:05.190 --> 00:10:07.250 yes. And I do want to say broadly, everything 00:10:07.250 --> 00:10:09.690 that we're talking about here today is from a 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:12.669 purely educational perspective. I am not condoning 00:10:12.669 --> 00:10:15.809 nor giving advice on dosing protocols to any 00:10:15.809 --> 00:10:18.470 one individual or parties. I'll make that very 00:10:18.470 --> 00:10:21.149 clear to anybody listening in here. But no, you're 00:10:21.149 --> 00:10:24.090 exactly correct. And on top of that, the additional... 00:10:24.409 --> 00:10:27.429 layer of complication of inter -individual variability 00:10:27.429 --> 00:10:29.870 and the genetic factor of whoever happens to 00:10:29.870 --> 00:10:32.370 be taking these. If we think about, if we take 00:10:32.370 --> 00:10:35.230 10 people off the street, the phenotypic differences, 00:10:35.409 --> 00:10:38.330 the external characteristics that make them individual 00:10:38.330 --> 00:10:41.070 are going to be huge for the most part. Now, 00:10:41.070 --> 00:10:42.730 if we're looking at enteral physiology, those 00:10:42.730 --> 00:10:45.629 differences might still be there. So how any 00:10:45.629 --> 00:10:48.090 10 people respond to the same dose of the same 00:10:48.090 --> 00:10:50.730 compound could be wildly different. Some of the 00:10:50.730 --> 00:10:53.190 individuals who colloquially seem to be able 00:10:53.190 --> 00:10:56.350 to run these really large cycles and not really 00:10:56.350 --> 00:10:58.450 have any ill side effects. Like they might have 00:10:58.450 --> 00:11:00.870 a genetic predisposition to being better able 00:11:00.870 --> 00:11:02.870 to handle these compounds in the first place 00:11:02.870 --> 00:11:04.850 or how they're going to respond. We know with 00:11:04.850 --> 00:11:07.250 any medication, you have responders, we have 00:11:07.250 --> 00:11:09.610 low responders, we have non -responders. Exercise 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:12.549 is the same way. And it all comes down to whatever 00:11:12.549 --> 00:11:15.370 your genetic makeup happens to be. So part of 00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:17.730 the paper. That kind of generated this discussion 00:11:17.730 --> 00:11:20.429 that we recently published was looking at the 00:11:20.429 --> 00:11:23.230 epigenetic factor or trying to look at the epigenetic 00:11:23.230 --> 00:11:25.529 factor behind some of these inter -individual 00:11:25.529 --> 00:11:29.090 differences or at least training style type differences. 00:11:29.370 --> 00:11:31.850 So we set out to look at the differences between 00:11:31.850 --> 00:11:33.809 those trained for powerlifting, bodybuilding, 00:11:33.870 --> 00:11:36.009 or strongman competition and those using versus 00:11:36.009 --> 00:11:38.370 non -using. But I think what we ended up finding 00:11:38.370 --> 00:11:40.490 was that even within those groups, there was 00:11:40.490 --> 00:11:42.970 a massive amount of inter -individual variability 00:11:42.970 --> 00:11:45.490 in terms of their response and the doses they 00:11:45.490 --> 00:11:47.649 were using. using and whatnot. So, you know, 00:11:47.649 --> 00:11:49.429 we think about all these things in a vacuum of 00:11:49.429 --> 00:11:51.850 what research tells us, but then we're not considering 00:11:51.850 --> 00:11:54.850 that if we have, you know, highly competitive 00:11:54.850 --> 00:11:58.029 Olympic weightlifters or highly competitive untested 00:11:58.029 --> 00:12:01.250 powerlifters or strongmen or IFBB pro bodybuilders, 00:12:01.309 --> 00:12:04.590 they are not running lab clinical doses that 00:12:04.590 --> 00:12:06.169 were used for medicinal purposes. They're running 00:12:06.169 --> 00:12:09.090 many, many, many times beyond that. And it's 00:12:09.090 --> 00:12:11.929 going to be specifically engineered and designed 00:12:11.929 --> 00:12:16.240 to their needs as an individual. So it's... I 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:17.620 don't want to say it's almost impossible to get 00:12:17.620 --> 00:12:20.779 really good human research on the super physiological 00:12:20.779 --> 00:12:23.460 doses used by some of these lifters and competitors, 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:25.559 but these are one of the biggest barriers and 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:28.080 challenges that we see, added on top of the fact 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.519 that they are illicit for use in many countries 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:32.559 outside of prescribed usage. Therefore, individuals 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:34.679 might be hesitant to come forward and say, oh, 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.620 yes, I'm using XYZ at these amounts in my training. 00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:41.860 So the part of why a person would like to take 00:12:41.860 --> 00:12:44.940 these is pretty clear. They have, let's say, 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:49.070 motivation. if beyond the disease and the need 00:12:49.070 --> 00:12:51.730 for it they have the motivation is increased 00:12:51.730 --> 00:12:54.649 performance be it strength or power development 00:12:54.649 --> 00:12:57.509 and so on and expression of course too yes but 00:12:57.509 --> 00:13:00.610 there is another side so they are not researched 00:13:00.610 --> 00:13:04.649 that's one thing but from the retrospective research 00:13:04.649 --> 00:13:07.750 so looking at the athletes who are known to take 00:13:07.750 --> 00:13:11.629 and when they died and what kind of consequences 00:13:11.629 --> 00:13:15.950 they developed Of course, because it was not 00:13:15.950 --> 00:13:19.309 controlled, we cannot say this is why they died 00:13:19.309 --> 00:13:21.750 earlier or this is why they had these issues. 00:13:21.909 --> 00:13:25.129 But we expect that there are some issues. So 00:13:25.129 --> 00:13:26.970 I think it's important that we bring the other 00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:30.929 side too. Yes, this is how they work and what 00:13:30.929 --> 00:13:34.250 is the outcome in terms of performance, but there 00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:37.629 are costs to that. Because we push the physiology 00:13:37.629 --> 00:13:41.629 into producing muscle, producing output, we're 00:13:41.629 --> 00:13:45.809 paying for it. So let's go through how the payoff. 00:13:46.350 --> 00:13:48.669 comes to be. Sure. That's a very good point. 00:13:48.750 --> 00:13:51.029 And one that does deserve to get brought up in 00:13:51.029 --> 00:13:53.929 every discussion about steroid usage. We have 00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:56.330 this beautiful homeostasis that the body likes 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:00.090 to be at. And if we perturb that too much, we 00:14:00.090 --> 00:14:01.850 push too much in one direction, like you said, 00:14:01.909 --> 00:14:04.870 something has to give on the other side. So these 00:14:04.870 --> 00:14:07.269 most potent compounds we talk about, they tend 00:14:07.269 --> 00:14:09.149 to be great for anabolism and strength. They 00:14:09.149 --> 00:14:11.129 tend to carry the heaviest side effects with 00:14:11.129 --> 00:14:13.830 them as well. I mentioned with the oral steroids, 00:14:14.090 --> 00:14:16.559 there's that hepatotoxicity. components of the 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.419 liver toxicity, the burden placed on the liver 00:14:19.419 --> 00:14:23.120 by having to unduly process more than they should. 00:14:23.529 --> 00:14:25.450 for these compounds because they've been chemically 00:14:25.450 --> 00:14:28.210 designed to be resistant to being broken down. 00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:31.529 You know, this can lead to eventual liver cancer 00:14:31.529 --> 00:14:34.590 or just erosion of the tissue itself. It's been 00:14:34.590 --> 00:14:35.830 no surprise. And like you mentioned, there've 00:14:35.830 --> 00:14:38.570 been a number of notorious high -level competitive 00:14:38.570 --> 00:14:41.029 untested athletes within the last five or 10 00:14:41.029 --> 00:14:44.009 years who have passed far too young. And if we 00:14:44.009 --> 00:14:46.309 look at the root cause, usually it's hypertrophic 00:14:46.309 --> 00:14:48.570 cardiomyopathy, some enlargement of the heart, 00:14:48.629 --> 00:14:50.929 thickening the heart tissue. The heart is a muscle. 00:14:51.029 --> 00:14:52.980 And if we're looking at anabolism system, And 00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:54.559 why? That is unfortunately one of the side effects 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:57.559 that can come with long -term heavy steroid use. 00:14:57.620 --> 00:14:59.500 So there are cardiovascular risks. On the other 00:14:59.500 --> 00:15:01.220 side of that coin, on the cardiovascular system, 00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:04.340 skewing of blood lipids. is one of the most prevalent 00:15:04.340 --> 00:15:07.179 side effects in steroid usage. So we have an 00:15:07.179 --> 00:15:10.019 interference with certain enzymes via the liver, 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.340 which are responsible for kind of that mobilization 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:15.100 and usage and uptake and storage, et cetera. 00:15:15.259 --> 00:15:19.340 And that can vastly alter the blood lipid profile 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:21.759 of a steroid user. So one of the things we tend 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.639 to see is that HDL, so high density. lipoprotein 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:27.080 count will go down. And HDL is what we think 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.379 about clearing away. It's called the good cholesterol. 00:15:29.500 --> 00:15:31.860 I don't like to ascribe good, bad to cholesterol. 00:15:32.059 --> 00:15:34.059 Cholesterol is just doing its job. It's where 00:15:34.059 --> 00:15:36.419 it's supposed to be at the time. But HDL tends 00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:39.679 to be anti -atherogenic, so better for cardiovascular 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.940 health. We tend to see increased LDL and triglyceride 00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:45.500 count, sometimes increased BLDL count as well. 00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:46.659 And these are things which are going to have 00:15:46.659 --> 00:15:49.080 a negative impact on the kind of holistic blood 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.159 lipid cardiovascular health. There are negative 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:55.580 side effects with Most of these compounds and 00:15:55.580 --> 00:15:57.860 especially past a certain dose threshold, it's 00:15:57.860 --> 00:16:01.059 going to be there. Much of the coaching language 00:16:01.059 --> 00:16:04.179 surrounding this kind of talk by coaches that 00:16:04.179 --> 00:16:06.840 I can't say prescribe, but will suggest usage 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.379 for their athletes. It's about harm reduction 00:16:09.379 --> 00:16:13.559 or risk reduction. Notice that's not harm prohibition. 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:15.899 We're not stopping the harm, but we can mitigate 00:16:15.899 --> 00:16:18.580 it a little bit. So we'll see a lot of ancillary 00:16:18.580 --> 00:16:21.820 compounds, things like milk thistle or Tudka 00:16:21.820 --> 00:16:24.110 for. liver health, where they'll kind of give 00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:26.190 a boost to these processes or act as antioxidants 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:28.909 to stop the degradation of these enzymes, we'll 00:16:28.909 --> 00:16:33.080 see things like... fish oil, high dose EPA, DHA 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:35.059 blends that will kind of help balance out those 00:16:35.059 --> 00:16:37.240 high triglyceride levels that we'll often see 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.399 from the skewed blood lipid panels. And it's 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.820 also one of the reasons that many IFBB pro bodybuilders 00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:44.360 do a high amount of steady state, low intensity 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:47.799 cardiovascular exercise. It's not some, it is 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:49.620 a bit for a core expenditure, but a lot of it 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:51.500 is just for keeping your heart and cardiovascular 00:16:51.500 --> 00:16:53.960 system functioning, especially at these very, 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.779 very high doses. Would diet, changing the diet 00:16:56.779 --> 00:16:59.379 and avoiding, would that have any influence? 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:01.970 To extend. Absolutely. So the chicken and broccoli 00:17:01.970 --> 00:17:05.069 is the art of that? They were right all along. 00:17:05.170 --> 00:17:08.130 In a way, yes. I don't know. I want to backtrack. 00:17:08.150 --> 00:17:10.250 I think they might have stumbled upon that being 00:17:10.250 --> 00:17:12.250 a good side effect of it. If you go back and 00:17:12.250 --> 00:17:14.269 you watch Pumping Iron, the Arnold documentary 00:17:14.269 --> 00:17:16.690 he made back in the 70s, and even interviews, 00:17:16.789 --> 00:17:19.609 he talks about having lots of fatty meats like 00:17:19.609 --> 00:17:21.990 steaks and things like that. They were not carb 00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:24.890 consumers usually. So if you think about it, 00:17:24.910 --> 00:17:27.440 almost like... keto style diet, like that might 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.680 be one of the worst things to have if you are 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.400 using AAS just because of like, we're already 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.319 risking that kind of cardiovascular health, high 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.079 saturated fat, stragglers rides, LDL, etc. So 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:42.079 yeah, it's a very controllable diet is going 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.140 to be the best one that has a balance of fatty 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:48.460 acid types. So saturated, polyunsaturated, monounsaturated, 00:17:48.539 --> 00:17:50.700 usually the rule of threes. So one third of your 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:52.660 fats should be monounsaturated, polyunsaturated, 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:54.940 and no more than a third should be saturated, 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.319 especially for users here. We've seen from some 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:00.579 research that dietary cholesterol is not necessarily 00:18:00.579 --> 00:18:04.160 a driver of blood lipid changes. But again, as 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.759 soon as you have high dose AAS here, a lot of 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:08.180 that research goes out the window because we're 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:10.240 dealing with a very, very different physiology 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.740 than that of a normal inactive person, especially. 00:18:14.250 --> 00:18:16.349 Yeah, a lot of the very strict controlled diet, 00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:18.569 it's not just for the aesthetic purposes, but 00:18:18.569 --> 00:18:21.470 it is from a health perspective as well. So, 00:18:21.490 --> 00:18:23.609 yeah, we do tend to see that being one of the 00:18:23.609 --> 00:18:26.549 side effects from that. Any other negative effects 00:18:26.549 --> 00:18:29.009 we know about? Yeah, and some of these might 00:18:29.009 --> 00:18:32.329 be negative in context, person to person, but 00:18:32.329 --> 00:18:35.210 they are non -performance side effects. Maybe 00:18:35.210 --> 00:18:36.950 we'll say that. They're not goal -oriented side 00:18:36.950 --> 00:18:39.490 effects. Fertility issues and sexual function 00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:41.470 is going to be one of the most prevalent as well. 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:45.309 Steroids are... sex hormones in the body i mean 00:18:45.309 --> 00:18:47.869 very truly that we they are i mean testosterone 00:18:47.869 --> 00:18:49.710 estrogen progesterone like these are all in the 00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:52.910 family of reproductive linked hormones across 00:18:52.910 --> 00:18:56.069 the sex spectrum so if we think about we have 00:18:56.069 --> 00:19:00.269 somebody who is injecting any amount of exogenous 00:19:00.269 --> 00:19:02.289 hormone into their body we'll say testosterone 00:19:02.289 --> 00:19:03.950 because that's what you know the most basic form 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:06.619 would be testosterone is going to exert its effects. 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.019 It's also going to be converted to a few things 00:19:09.019 --> 00:19:11.519 in the body. So I mentioned dihydrotestosterone 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.859 or DHT earlier. So the enzyme 5 -alpha reductase 00:19:14.859 --> 00:19:18.400 will turn testosterone into DHT. DHT is very 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.539 androgenic. So a lot of the male pattern hair 00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:25.039 loss and baldness, that's DHT derived, but also 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.319 beard growth, facial hair growth is DHT derived. 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.039 So there's a kid's toy from back in the day, 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.660 Wooly Willy, and have like a magnet with thought 00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:34.799 metal shavings. You could make hair or a beard. 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:36.599 So I joke when I talk about this, it's like you're 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:38.079 just dragging the hair down the face because 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.079 it thins on top and it grows down here. So that's 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:43.319 kind of the effect we have there. But DHT is 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.420 heavily linked with feelings of well -being and 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:49.420 sexual function, especially in males. Testosterone 00:19:49.420 --> 00:19:53.069 could also be aromatized to estrogen. So the 00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:55.470 aromatase enzyme will convert testosterone to 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:58.470 estrogen. This is how males really have estrogen 00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:00.750 in the body. And males do need estrogen. Estrogen 00:20:00.750 --> 00:20:03.410 is hugely important. It's cardioprotective. It's 00:20:03.410 --> 00:20:06.170 neuroprotective. It's osteoprotective. If we 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:09.029 think about postmenopausal females with osteoporosis, 00:20:09.130 --> 00:20:11.410 it's from that precipitous drop in estrogen, 00:20:11.529 --> 00:20:13.529 which a lot of that is actually where my research 00:20:13.529 --> 00:20:15.289 has gone in the last few years. But we can talk 00:20:15.289 --> 00:20:17.450 about that later. But estrogen has a separate 00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:21.269 hypertrophy modulation pathway, the MAPK enzyme. 00:20:22.029 --> 00:20:24.930 So. Estrogen is very important for everybody, 00:20:25.089 --> 00:20:27.730 males included. It used to be thought, oh, when 00:20:27.730 --> 00:20:29.829 you go on your steroid cycle, you take an aromatase 00:20:29.829 --> 00:20:31.589 inhibitor because you don't want estrogen. That 00:20:31.589 --> 00:20:33.789 is not true. Very often, a lot of the negative 00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:36.230 side effects we see with steroid use are kind 00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:38.589 of balanced out by having the proper estrogen 00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:41.130 ratio within a certain boundary as a result of 00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:43.230 that. Estrogen in too high amounts can lead to 00:20:43.230 --> 00:20:45.470 things like water retention and bloating, mood 00:20:45.470 --> 00:20:48.269 swings, and other ill side effects. But if it 00:20:48.269 --> 00:20:50.230 gets too low, it's also very, very, very bad. 00:20:50.369 --> 00:20:52.109 Estrogen and testosterone, when they're in the 00:20:52.109 --> 00:20:55.079 body, The body senses that, and the production 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.880 of sex steroid hormones in the human body kind 00:20:57.880 --> 00:20:59.500 of acts on what we call the classical negative 00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:01.880 feedback loop. So the body senses a presence 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.099 of a certain level of these hormones, goes up 00:21:04.099 --> 00:21:06.779 to the hypothalamus, to the pituitary, which 00:21:06.779 --> 00:21:08.839 is where the hormone production starts, and it 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:10.359 kind of sends a signal saying, we have enough. 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:12.599 We don't need to release. The kind of precursor, 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:14.660 which is gonadotropin -releasing hormone, goes 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:17.079 from the hypothalamus to the pituitary, and then 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:20.079 luteinizing hormone, LH. and follicle -stimulating 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.519 hormone, FSH, are released. They go to the gonads, 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:24.680 even testes in biological males, the ovaries 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:26.940 in biological females. And then from there, they 00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:29.200 act on the cells to produce your testosterone, 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:32.059 estrogen, et cetera. So for blocking the signal 00:21:32.059 --> 00:21:34.380 there, we're not getting the releasers, which 00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:36.680 then are initiating the release of hormones from 00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:40.059 the gonads. So you suppress your natural production 00:21:40.059 --> 00:21:43.180 of in -males testosterone. So if a male is deep 00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:46.099 into a steroid cycle, they're likely to see a 00:21:46.099 --> 00:21:48.319 null sperm count if they were to do a sperm analysis. 00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:52.000 Coming off of a cycle, it can take anywhere from 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.380 three to six months for that process. to kind 00:21:54.380 --> 00:21:56.960 of restart. There are certain compounds like 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.960 inconafine, citrate, DHEA, which will help kind 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.880 of boost that system as we get back in. Also, 00:22:03.940 --> 00:22:07.559 you can take synthetic congeners of LH and FSH, 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.200 so human chorionic anatotropin or human menopausal 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.039 anatotropin, so they kind of act like LHFSH, 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:17.660 so they can restart the production of endogenous 00:22:17.660 --> 00:22:20.460 hormones from the gonads, even during a cycle. 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:22.079 So again, there are ways to kind of mitigate 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.400 this, but it's all about... risk reward and also 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.380 how much money you have to spend because a lot 00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:28.859 of people talk about many of the things are very 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:30.700 very expensive and i'm not willing to get into 00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:33.319 a price point on anything here but these can 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:35.680 definitely add up so anybody who's considering 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.700 using for i want to put this out here for the 00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:39.640 listeners anybody who's considering using there 00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:41.460 are two questions you need to ask yourself one 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:45.579 is am i looking to go or am i currently at an 00:22:45.579 --> 00:22:48.799 incredibly high competitive level if not if it's 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.859 just for recreational purposes i wouldn't recommend 00:22:51.859 --> 00:22:53.910 it i don't think the juice is worth the squeeze. 00:22:54.049 --> 00:22:56.890 The other thing is, if I am a high -level competitor, 00:22:57.029 --> 00:22:59.769 how much am I willing to monetarily and from 00:22:59.769 --> 00:23:02.450 a health -wise invest and kind of give up in 00:23:02.450 --> 00:23:04.690 pursuit of this goal? To back to the fertility 00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:06.750 thing here, if somebody is considering going 00:23:06.750 --> 00:23:09.990 on, if you're a male, I would consider If children 00:23:09.990 --> 00:23:12.069 are something you want in the future, then I 00:23:12.069 --> 00:23:14.289 would maybe do, you know, semen analysis and 00:23:14.289 --> 00:23:17.710 maybe freeze a sample just so you have security, 00:23:17.890 --> 00:23:20.250 peace of mind. Obviously, if you're a female 00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:23.029 competitor looking to use these compounds, doing 00:23:23.029 --> 00:23:25.349 an egg retrieval cycle, again, if this is something 00:23:25.349 --> 00:23:27.730 that you are at all considering in the future, 00:23:27.869 --> 00:23:30.329 it's peace of mind, you know, because some of 00:23:30.329 --> 00:23:33.390 these things may be irreversible. I will say, 00:23:33.430 --> 00:23:36.380 unfortunately. The male reproductive system is 00:23:36.380 --> 00:23:38.960 much more robust to kind of bouncing back over 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.599 time than the female system. The effects of steroids 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:43.700 on female reproductive physiology sometimes are 00:23:43.700 --> 00:23:46.759 irreversible past a certain point. In males, 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:50.480 you need many, many years of very high doses 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:53.880 with very little time off to really see any kind 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.180 of lasting permanent effects. Again, this will 00:23:56.180 --> 00:23:58.180 differ person to person, but that is some of 00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:00.859 the big changes we see in reproductive health. 00:24:02.089 --> 00:24:04.569 Usually when people are on a steroid cycle, they 00:24:04.569 --> 00:24:06.930 feel great. I mean, strength is to the roof and 00:24:06.930 --> 00:24:09.269 physique probably is improved. Libido is going 00:24:09.269 --> 00:24:11.650 to be very, very high. It's the coming off or 00:24:11.650 --> 00:24:14.269 it's the mismatch of the internal hormone balance 00:24:14.269 --> 00:24:17.369 because of what you're using that is likely to 00:24:17.369 --> 00:24:19.309 kind of give some of those negative side effects. 00:24:19.470 --> 00:24:21.990 If we look at, again, talking about female steroid 00:24:21.990 --> 00:24:25.170 users, deeply virilizing, masculinizing side 00:24:25.170 --> 00:24:27.190 effects. So deepening of the voice, facial hair, 00:24:27.289 --> 00:24:31.029 body hair, thinning of the scalp follicles, acne. 00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:33.160 you know, heavy sebaceous gland oil production, 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:35.079 things like that. And again, many of these are 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:37.539 irreversible in female competitors or users there. 00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:39.480 Those are some of the major symptoms we think 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:42.619 about. There's a variety of other smaller side 00:24:42.619 --> 00:24:44.799 effects that might differ person to person. I 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:46.500 did mention it before and I'll kind of... close 00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:49.619 on this is the neurotoxic side effects of certain 00:24:49.619 --> 00:24:53.819 compounds more than others. So like I said, androgens, 00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:56.720 the brain uses them for a variety of compounds, 00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:59.579 excuse me, for a variety of reasons. And certain 00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:02.559 compounds tend to have more neurotoxic effects 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:06.900 than others, specifically the family called 19NORs. 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.720 So they are formulated differently at one of 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.940 the alpha carbon, the carbon positions, steroid 00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:15.769 rings, and the way that they interact with brain 00:25:15.769 --> 00:25:18.470 chemistry is potentially devastating. So if we 00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:21.890 have somebody who is prone to mood imbalances, 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:24.890 mood swings, depressive anxiety, paranoia symptoms, 00:25:25.049 --> 00:25:27.990 anything like that, even to a small degree, the 00:25:27.990 --> 00:25:30.289 use of that steroid might heighten that. I think, 00:25:30.309 --> 00:25:32.089 and I might be shooting from the hip a little 00:25:32.089 --> 00:25:34.069 bit here, but when we think about somebody having 00:25:34.069 --> 00:25:36.670 a roid rage, which I don't believe is a blanket 00:25:36.670 --> 00:25:39.549 concept across the board, there are certain compounds 00:25:39.549 --> 00:25:42.609 which I'm willing to believe might be the result 00:25:42.609 --> 00:25:45.210 of that if the person already has a tendencies 00:25:45.210 --> 00:25:47.490 in the first place. So a lot of these compounds 00:25:47.490 --> 00:25:49.670 will heighten the kind of brain neurochemistry 00:25:49.670 --> 00:25:52.109 that you are predisposed to. I don't think they 00:25:52.109 --> 00:25:54.440 introduce something new. out of nowhere but again 00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:57.920 we do not have a lot of research on that because 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.799 no ethics board is going to approve a study with 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:03.240 super physiological doses specifically to see 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.240 if they elicit neurodegenerative side effects 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:07.460 it's not but unfortunately so you know when we 00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:09.759 talk about to wrap up talking about side effects 00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:11.839 and harm reduction this is where i think the 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.339 research could be a little more robust because 00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:17.480 if people are going to be using steroids i think 00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:19.940 we deserve to give them the best evidence -based 00:26:19.940 --> 00:26:21.940 backing of how they best can keep themselves 00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:24.359 healthy and alive All right. I want to give you 00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:27.880 an opportunity to talk about your study. So you 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.180 mentioned it a little bit. Could we just quickly 00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:32.400 go through the setup? How did you design the 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.240 study? Who have you recruited? And then we will 00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:38.740 go to the results. Absolutely. So this project 00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:41.480 actually was my doctoral dissertation. And so 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.079 this would have been back about 2022, 2023. And 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:49.799 the purpose of this was. To identify any differences, 00:26:49.900 --> 00:26:52.440 again, like I said, between training styles and 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.519 competitive strength and physique athletes. So 00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:57.140 powerlifters, bodybuilders, and strongmen. Unfortunately, 00:26:57.319 --> 00:26:59.539 no Olympic weightlifters in this study. When 00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:01.119 I saw your email come through originally, I was 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:03.079 like, I wish I had Olympic weightlifters in this 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:05.519 study for your audience. We did have some powerlifters, 00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:07.869 as you mentioned, though. And to see... differences 00:27:07.869 --> 00:27:11.329 specifically in the expression of certain myogenic 00:27:11.329 --> 00:27:14.990 growth factors in humans. So this had come out 00:27:14.990 --> 00:27:17.710 of a systematic review, which I'd also done as 00:27:17.710 --> 00:27:20.750 part of my doctoral work. And it was looking 00:27:20.750 --> 00:27:24.609 at, again, the effects of steroids across both 00:27:24.609 --> 00:27:26.950 rodent and human models. Obviously not athletes, 00:27:27.009 --> 00:27:28.549 because we're looking at rodents here, but how 00:27:28.549 --> 00:27:31.430 they affected the genetic expression or the mRNA 00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:35.250 expression of any gene related to muscle that 00:27:35.250 --> 00:27:37.309 they looked at in these studies. And I actually 00:27:37.309 --> 00:27:40.210 made a giant word cloud when I was doing my proposal. 00:27:40.410 --> 00:27:44.190 And there were, I want to say, 40 or 50 plus 00:27:44.190 --> 00:27:46.890 different genes that they looked at. And that's 00:27:46.890 --> 00:27:49.650 a small number. There are many, many pathways 00:27:49.650 --> 00:27:52.769 that are doing anything in muscle at any given 00:27:52.769 --> 00:27:55.490 moment in time. But the three most common growth 00:27:55.490 --> 00:27:58.170 factors that were looked at across studies and 00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:01.130 that were increased by administration of steroids 00:28:01.130 --> 00:28:05.009 were myogenin, so myo -G, myoblast, differentiation 00:28:05.009 --> 00:28:07.940 factor one. And so my OD and IGF -1. And so my 00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:11.660 growth factor one. So IGF -1 is the growth factor 00:28:11.660 --> 00:28:14.759 in the body. It is across any tissue, probably 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:18.000 the most prevalent and important thing responsible 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:20.859 for analysis. So growing tissues. And this is 00:28:20.859 --> 00:28:23.720 in utero through adulthood and beyond. If we 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:25.599 think about growth hormone, human growth hormone, 00:28:25.779 --> 00:28:29.680 its primary role is to cause the release of IGF 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:32.819 -1. So that's how important IGF -1 is. So any 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:35.299 tissue that we're expecting to be growing. we 00:28:35.299 --> 00:28:37.440 would expect to see heightened IGF -1 levels 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:41.480 because of that. Myogenin and MyoD1, these are 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.940 hugely responsible for the muscle tissue cycle 00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:48.940 of proliferation, differentiation, and integration. 00:28:49.259 --> 00:28:52.680 So, you know, very briefly, you, as our understanding 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.259 says right now, hang in, this is where we're 00:28:54.259 --> 00:28:55.859 kind of at the what do we know, what don't we 00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:58.880 know level of research. We don't gain more muscle 00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.339 sets. We make them thicker and we add more nuclei 00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:05.319 to them. So again, the nucleus is where DNA is 00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:07.680 housed. It's the brain of the cell. So if we 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.200 could have more nuclei in a muscle cell, those 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:12.140 are more factories, so to speak, where we're 00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:14.079 manufacturing proteins. So if we think about 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:16.039 the kind of genomic effects of Android administration, 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.460 we're going to see the more nuclei there are, 00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:20.880 the more protein can be made, et cetera, et cetera. 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.960 Where do those nuclei come from? They come from 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:24.880 something called satellite cells. And satellite 00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.619 cells, very simply, are stem cells that are specific 00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:30.859 to muscle. The stem cell, the satellite cells 00:29:30.859 --> 00:29:33.380 are quiescent, so kind of like resting and waiting. 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.339 When they're kind of called upon, they proliferate, 00:29:36.339 --> 00:29:38.599 they differentiate, and they are taken up into 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.200 mature myotunes and myoblasts, and they add their 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:45.140 nuclei to the muscle cell. That is kind of what 00:29:45.140 --> 00:29:47.420 we see happening and what we are understanding 00:29:47.420 --> 00:29:50.799 in theory of how muscle anabolism works really 00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:53.220 truly. So that's kind of what Myogen and MyoD. 00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:56.180 one do and the cool thing about myogenin is it's 00:29:56.180 --> 00:29:59.319 self -activating so it can boost itself on a 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:03.059 loop it's linked directly with myo g1 and in 00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:05.900 the the manuscript which we'll definitely make 00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:07.359 sure we can link to your listeners if they want 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:09.559 to go and read it i have a diagram kind of showing 00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:13.200 how these growth factors work in congruence with 00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.099 other signaling proteins, androgens, the G protein 00:30:16.099 --> 00:30:18.400 couple receptor, as I mentioned before, et cetera. 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.720 So that's kind of what we see happening here. 00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:24.359 So these tend to go up or down together. They 00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.980 go hand in hand in hand, so to speak. So that's 00:30:26.980 --> 00:30:30.420 why we chose to look at those three genes specifically. 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.579 We'd expect to see them boosted in, A, those 00:30:33.579 --> 00:30:36.420 who are maybe trained with higher volumes, right, 00:30:36.500 --> 00:30:38.539 more of a hypertrophic stimulus, and those who 00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:40.200 are using steroids, because we definitely expect 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:43.269 that to be more. of a hypertrophic studio. So 00:30:43.269 --> 00:30:46.089 that was kind of what we set out to do. We recruited 00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:49.450 from a sample, again, of competitive powerlifters, 00:30:49.490 --> 00:30:52.029 bodybuilders, and strongmen. We wanted competitive 00:30:52.029 --> 00:30:54.730 athletes. One of the limitations of much research, 00:30:54.730 --> 00:30:57.450 as we've kind of alluded to, is the fact that 00:30:57.769 --> 00:31:00.369 We are limited in terms of sampling methods and 00:31:00.369 --> 00:31:02.430 who we can actually get to participate in our 00:31:02.430 --> 00:31:05.430 study, humans or otherwise. So the issue with 00:31:05.430 --> 00:31:08.250 taking already competitive athletes is that you 00:31:08.250 --> 00:31:10.509 can't really standardize their training because 00:31:10.509 --> 00:31:12.750 they're going to say, I have a training program 00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:14.329 that I've been doing for years. It works for 00:31:14.329 --> 00:31:16.309 me. It's custom built by my coach. I'm not going 00:31:16.309 --> 00:31:19.690 to do a program that's exactly right. So and 00:31:19.690 --> 00:31:22.109 you mentioned it before, a lot of this is retrospective. 00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:24.710 So observational research, ex post facto saying, 00:31:24.890 --> 00:31:26.970 what are you already doing? Can we kind of account? 00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:29.089 for that? And then what do we see going forward 00:31:29.089 --> 00:31:31.910 based on what we're looking at? So we gathered 00:31:31.910 --> 00:31:35.049 their usage of steroids or not, and we had them 00:31:35.049 --> 00:31:37.670 do a seven -day training log of the seven days 00:31:37.670 --> 00:31:41.049 preceding when we took the salivary sample. I'm 00:31:41.049 --> 00:31:43.269 going to touch on that again in... a second. 00:31:43.369 --> 00:31:45.349 So from there, we were able to calculate volumes 00:31:45.349 --> 00:31:48.029 for the different athletes, just simply reps 00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:50.609 and sets. We didn't do tonnage, which would have 00:31:50.609 --> 00:31:53.289 accounted for training intensity as well. One 00:31:53.289 --> 00:31:55.190 of the interesting things that we found was that 00:31:55.190 --> 00:31:58.329 more athletes than you'd expect did not keep 00:31:58.329 --> 00:32:00.470 a very strict log of the certain weights that 00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:03.170 they utilized in their training, which as a meticulous 00:32:03.170 --> 00:32:06.150 note taker, that blew my mind. I first came across 00:32:06.150 --> 00:32:07.309 that. It's like, how do you know if you're getting 00:32:07.309 --> 00:32:10.089 better? We were simply calculating volume, so 00:32:10.089 --> 00:32:13.849 it was okay. And from those who identified anonymously 00:32:13.849 --> 00:32:17.869 as steroid users, we gathered their doses of 00:32:17.869 --> 00:32:21.569 whatever compounds they were using. So the previous 00:32:21.569 --> 00:32:24.829 systematic review that I had done, I want to 00:32:24.829 --> 00:32:27.509 say there were about over 18 different steroid 00:32:27.509 --> 00:32:30.670 compounds that were identified. It probably is 00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:32.490 more than that as well. We think about designer 00:32:32.490 --> 00:32:34.930 compounds and things not get in research, etc. 00:32:35.230 --> 00:32:38.970 So we gave them the opportunity to identify any 00:32:38.970 --> 00:32:40.450 of those and then other. Was there anything that 00:32:40.450 --> 00:32:43.029 wasn't on this list that you were taking? I think 00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:45.150 there's only one compound that was identified 00:32:45.150 --> 00:32:47.710 as such. So we have them identify all that, how 00:32:47.710 --> 00:32:49.849 much they were using, etc. And all the information 00:32:49.849 --> 00:32:53.049 also is in the paper. There's a nice table on. 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:55.940 the descriptive characteristics of the doses 00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:58.259 that were reported by participants. They weren't 00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:00.920 as high as you may expect. I think the highest 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:03.720 was about 600 milligrams total per week across 00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:07.400 all compounds, and the lowest was 50 to 100, 00:33:07.619 --> 00:33:09.559 something like that. So, you know, if you think 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:13.380 about the variety in dose size and frequency, 00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:15.960 et cetera. There was a very small sample of steroid 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.099 users already. So we could see how that high 00:33:18.099 --> 00:33:20.619 amount of within -group variability is going 00:33:20.619 --> 00:33:23.119 to have a massive statistical impact on can we 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.779 actually get anything from this? So we gathered 00:33:25.779 --> 00:33:28.079 all this information and analyzed it, had all 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:29.960 of the salivary samples analyzed for the three 00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:31.980 genes. You know, there's a lot of debate within 00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:34.839 the review process about whether salivary samples 00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:37.660 were appropriate for this kind of analysis. And 00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:39.160 I definitely think there is credence to call 00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:41.259 them into question. There is evidence suggesting 00:33:41.549 --> 00:33:44.009 And kind of finding that IDF1 and other similar 00:33:44.009 --> 00:33:46.269 growth factors can be found in meaningful quantities 00:33:46.269 --> 00:33:48.609 in saliva. Doing something like a biopsy probably 00:33:48.609 --> 00:33:50.829 would have been better. So doing a proteomic 00:33:50.829 --> 00:33:53.769 analysis alongside this genomic analysis from 00:33:53.769 --> 00:33:55.890 a muscle specific biopsy that, you know, that 00:33:55.890 --> 00:33:57.930 likely would be something to improve upon this 00:33:57.930 --> 00:34:00.990 design in the future. But that is, that is what 00:34:00.990 --> 00:34:04.089 we did. And we had them analyzed. We found really 00:34:04.089 --> 00:34:08.210 no difference to any combination of spork or 00:34:08.210 --> 00:34:11.400 steroid use. across any of the three growth factors. 00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:14.820 And I was fine with that. I am not somebody who 00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:18.119 needs to find significant results from a paper. 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:19.880 I think non -significant findings are still, 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:21.599 they're still findings and they're still relevant. 00:34:21.699 --> 00:34:23.760 They still tell us maybe what does not work so 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:25.639 that future researchers building upon this lineage 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:27.579 can say, well, we don't have to try this again. 00:34:27.619 --> 00:34:29.219 It's already been tried. Or maybe we can tweak 00:34:29.219 --> 00:34:31.739 this design, et cetera. We needed a larger sample 00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:34.119 size. I mean, that is probably one of the first 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:35.820 things I would address. We need a larger sample 00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:38.960 size, more balanced groups. We had a bit more 00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:41.139 power afters than either of the other two. And 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:43.980 then steroid users to non -users. Again, I think 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:45.739 it might be challenging for steroid users to 00:34:45.739 --> 00:34:47.539 be willing to come forward and say, I'm willing 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:49.820 to disclose, even though on the informed consent, 00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:51.900 obviously we're saying all of this is de -identified. 00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:54.400 It's anonymous and confidential. No one's going 00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:56.619 to be looking at this. The social desirability 00:34:56.619 --> 00:34:59.159 bias and like when you're doing a survey, even 00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:01.360 if no one's going to know it's you, you don't 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.920 want to come. crosses as being a bad person and 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:05.900 not that steroid use makes you a bad person, 00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:07.519 but these are the fears that can kind of come 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.280 to people's minds when they're going to self 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:11.159 -disclose this kind of information. So those 00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:13.019 are some of the issues that we ran into. Again, 00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:16.320 doing a robust tissue analysis opposed to a salivary 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.340 sample analysis. It can also be challenging to 00:35:19.340 --> 00:35:21.500 get a muscle biopsy from individuals, especially 00:35:21.500 --> 00:35:23.260 if you have people who you're training heavily 00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:25.400 saying, oh, we're going to take a right of right 00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:27.860 size, yeah, bit of muscle from your quad and 00:35:27.860 --> 00:35:29.820 you have to squat heavily this week. That's not 00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:31.599 going to go over very well. well for the most 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:33.300 part the other some of the other limitations 00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:35.760 you know like i said we weren't controlling their 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:37.880 training so there's a lot of inter -individual 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:39.739 variability in terms of what movements they were 00:35:39.739 --> 00:35:42.880 doing volume intensities etc we there was a standardized 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:46.219 dosing protocol or use of compounds and i think 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:50.199 just with the narrow range of people that we 00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.179 had to pull from, a lot of these differences 00:35:52.179 --> 00:35:54.840 just weren't able to manifest based on those 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:57.920 limitations. So, you know, be it as it may, it 00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:01.480 was a good kind of, I think, look into this process. 00:36:01.780 --> 00:36:04.260 Nothing like that had been done on athletes of 00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:06.239 that level before. From the systematic review 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:08.380 that we did before, I think there were 29 studies 00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:11.360 we identified and only three of them had human 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.159 participants. The rest were all mouse or rat. 00:36:14.300 --> 00:36:17.039 And that was after cutting out other non -human 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:19.679 or rodent. Because rodent, again, it still gets 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:22.079 some pretty decent mechanistic carryover. There 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.139 were a few cattle studies. There were many studies 00:36:24.139 --> 00:36:27.920 in zebrafish. Zebrafish, there's a lot of steroid 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.639 research in zebrafish for some reason, which 00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:31.579 is fascinating. But I'm not a zoologist, so I 00:36:31.579 --> 00:36:33.659 can't speak into that. So yeah, only three studies 00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:36.980 on humans. None of them were an athletic population. 00:36:37.420 --> 00:36:39.880 Many of them were of elderly population, right? 00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:42.500 So if we think about the benefits of this research, 00:36:42.739 --> 00:36:44.460 it might not even be looking at athletes. It 00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:46.659 might be looking at geriatric populations or 00:36:46.659 --> 00:36:48.800 hypogonads. genetic populations, you know, those 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:50.920 who on these medications were prescribed, were 00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:53.420 developed in or prescription for in the first 00:36:53.420 --> 00:36:55.639 place. But yeah, that was kind of our main finding 00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:57.900 from this. Unfortunately, not much to go off 00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:00.920 here. It doesn't seem that those three genes 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:04.659 specifically impacted much, but due to the reasons 00:37:04.659 --> 00:37:07.320 that I mentioned before, that might give credence 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.539 as to why. Did you ask your participants how 00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:12.360 long have they been using for? Because I expect 00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:15.380 that there is one of the elements will be how 00:37:15.380 --> 00:37:18.130 long you... have to be using to actually become 00:37:18.130 --> 00:37:21.110 a different person to the person who is not using 00:37:21.110 --> 00:37:24.789 metabolically and then physiologically. Right. 00:37:24.949 --> 00:37:29.230 We had defined it as use of at least six months 00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:32.909 prior to the time of the study. And I think the 00:37:32.909 --> 00:37:37.170 information we gathered was within the five weeks 00:37:37.170 --> 00:37:40.510 preceding the tissue sample gathering. So again, 00:37:40.750 --> 00:37:43.329 like six months, not really a long time. Something 00:37:43.329 --> 00:37:45.750 could have started right before this. like six 00:37:45.750 --> 00:37:47.150 months before and say, oh, I'm a steroid user. 00:37:47.349 --> 00:37:49.349 Somebody who's been doing this for 16 years, 00:37:49.690 --> 00:37:50.829 right? That's going to be, like you said, it's 00:37:50.829 --> 00:37:53.530 vastly different. You're 100 % correct. These 00:37:53.530 --> 00:37:55.329 are things that could have given us a more robust 00:37:55.329 --> 00:37:58.090 design. The issue is the more arms of analysis 00:37:58.090 --> 00:38:00.409 you add, the number of people you need to detect 00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:03.230 meaningful changes goes through the roof. I'm 00:38:03.230 --> 00:38:05.070 not saying that that can't be done or that's 00:38:05.070 --> 00:38:07.130 a reason not to do it, but that definitely gives 00:38:07.130 --> 00:38:10.309 some insight into maybe why this was not able 00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:12.250 to really detect any meaningful differences between 00:38:12.250 --> 00:38:15.170 these groups. I think that's another study that 00:38:15.170 --> 00:38:18.989 should be run between teams and between countries 00:38:18.989 --> 00:38:21.110 and so on where the researchers pull the data 00:38:21.110 --> 00:38:24.539 together and... Because otherwise it's impossible 00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:28.360 to get a study running for long enough and controlled 00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:31.849 enough to get enough people. Basically that's 00:38:31.849 --> 00:38:34.690 where it comes down to. Yeah. Multi -site data 00:38:34.690 --> 00:38:37.030 collection is a trend that is being seen more 00:38:37.030 --> 00:38:39.110 and more in exercise and sports science specifically, 00:38:39.309 --> 00:38:41.469 which is great because we've been played with 00:38:41.469 --> 00:38:44.550 small sample sizes since this field really became 00:38:44.550 --> 00:38:46.769 a thing. Let's bring it all together. What would 00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:49.250 be your advice on the base of your knowledge 00:38:49.250 --> 00:38:52.630 and your study for athletes and coaches? I definitely 00:38:52.630 --> 00:38:54.849 want to hearken back to what I said earlier about 00:38:54.849 --> 00:38:58.050 for somebody who is considering using anabolics 00:38:58.050 --> 00:39:00.469 of any type or PEDs of any type. You need to 00:39:00.469 --> 00:39:03.550 do an honest accounting with yourself as to the 00:39:03.550 --> 00:39:06.010 level of competition you want to go to and are 00:39:06.010 --> 00:39:09.289 willing to invest financially, time -wise, et 00:39:09.289 --> 00:39:12.789 cetera, to get to. I truly believe that 99 .9 00:39:12.789 --> 00:39:16.949 % of individuals could do an audit of lifestyle, 00:39:17.309 --> 00:39:20.010 nutrition, sleep, everything else that we can 00:39:20.010 --> 00:39:22.869 control for and probably make quite a bit more 00:39:22.869 --> 00:39:24.929 progress if that's something they truly care 00:39:24.929 --> 00:39:27.150 about. I don't think they're a viable shortcut 00:39:27.150 --> 00:39:30.269 method for those not looking to really compete 00:39:30.269 --> 00:39:32.570 in the highest echelons of competition. And for 00:39:32.570 --> 00:39:34.630 those who are, as they say, it's a marathon, 00:39:34.710 --> 00:39:36.889 not a sprint. So we want to think about longevity 00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:39.110 being the name of the game, you know, time that 00:39:39.110 --> 00:39:41.769 you can spend training healthily and not just 00:39:41.769 --> 00:39:43.690 make a big splash then disappear because you've 00:39:43.690 --> 00:39:46.050 seriously injured yourself. So, and that comes 00:39:46.050 --> 00:39:48.190 to coaches too. For coaches out there, if you 00:39:48.190 --> 00:39:50.829 are working with athletes and you are suggesting 00:39:50.829 --> 00:39:54.670 use or asking use of PEDs of any type, anabolic 00:39:54.670 --> 00:39:57.110 steroids or otherwise, you need to be doing your 00:39:57.110 --> 00:39:59.710 due diligence to educate yourself. first of all, 00:39:59.730 --> 00:40:01.670 on what these things actually do in the body, 00:40:01.750 --> 00:40:04.190 the myriad of side effects, desirable or otherwise, 00:40:04.409 --> 00:40:06.929 that come with them. And you need to be considering 00:40:06.929 --> 00:40:09.329 minimal effective dose, so getting the most out 00:40:09.329 --> 00:40:11.869 of the least, and proper harm reduction and mitigation 00:40:11.869 --> 00:40:14.510 protocols that can be used. And at all times, 00:40:14.510 --> 00:40:16.809 you need to remember that these are people you 00:40:16.809 --> 00:40:19.130 are working with. They are not science experiments. 00:40:19.429 --> 00:40:21.309 They are not lab rats. These are individuals 00:40:21.309 --> 00:40:23.630 and humans. And if we looked at it from a research 00:40:23.630 --> 00:40:25.630 perspective, things about respect for persons, 00:40:25.730 --> 00:40:28.150 do no harm, we need to be doing the same as coaches. 00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:31.400 as well is the risk or is the reward worth the 00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.099 risk you're willing to put this person through 00:40:33.099 --> 00:40:35.329 and you need to be upright and honest with your 00:40:35.329 --> 00:40:37.590 athletes if you are asking this of them. That's 00:40:37.590 --> 00:40:39.210 what I would, my advice I would give. Thank you. 00:40:39.269 --> 00:40:41.289 Two short questions to finish. The first one 00:40:41.289 --> 00:40:43.750 is, what is your favorite lift? The barbell bash 00:40:43.750 --> 00:40:47.010 press. Why is that? It's the one that I think 00:40:47.010 --> 00:40:48.889 I've had to put the most work into over the years. 00:40:48.989 --> 00:40:52.210 So there's a bit of rewarding aspect there. And 00:40:52.210 --> 00:40:56.070 as I get older, it's the one that causes me the 00:40:56.070 --> 00:40:58.130 least trouble that I can still have fun with. 00:40:58.250 --> 00:41:00.570 Yes, I'd say for those reasons. Very nice. And 00:41:00.570 --> 00:41:02.590 the last question is, where people can find you 00:41:02.590 --> 00:41:06.219 if they want to... Follow your work or see what 00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:08.320 you're up to or maybe ask a question. Absolutely. 00:41:08.380 --> 00:41:11.300 So there's a few ways. Social media wise, I'm 00:41:11.300 --> 00:41:13.599 really just on Instagram. I don't do anything 00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:16.880 else, unfortunately. So my handle is at doctor 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.119 underscore Lukey underscore lifts. And I'm sure 00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:21.920 we can put that in the show notes for the listeners 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.699 if they want to find that. I am on ResearchGate. 00:41:24.739 --> 00:41:26.719 So if you type Luke Pelton into ResearchGate, 00:41:26.780 --> 00:41:29.519 I should pop up. I have my faculty and research 00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.840 profile. So Luke Pelton Springfield College. 00:41:31.940 --> 00:41:35.500 I should come up there as. well. And my email 00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:37.579 should be readily accessible from all of those. 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:39.880 Feel free to send me a DM. I would genuinely 00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:42.579 love to talk with anybody who's interested. I 00:41:42.579 --> 00:41:44.880 truly mean that. Thank you so much, Luke. It 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.340 was a pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you, Alex.