WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.520 You don't have to spend all day every day in 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:04.700 a gym. You don't have to spend even an hour a 00:00:04.700 --> 00:00:07.099 day. You can spend as little as 30 minutes a 00:00:07.099 --> 00:00:09.199 day. You can spend as little as 30 minutes a 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:11.359 week and you'll still get a benefit and you're 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.839 still going to be above someone who's not active 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:19.179 in every instance. Hi, Nate. It's my pleasure 00:00:19.179 --> 00:00:22.120 to have you on Evidence Strong Show for the second 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:25.199 time. You blew my mind the first time, so I'm 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:27.960 pretty sure it will be a repeat this time. Could 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:30.440 you please briefly introduce yourself first? 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:33.280 Sure. Yeah, so my name is Dr. Nathan Serrano. 00:00:33.460 --> 00:00:35.240 It's a little bit weird saying doctor. Congratulations. 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.979 I'm a recent graduate with my PhD. Thank you. 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:42.159 So I'm here at the University of Arkansas in 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:44.679 northwest Arkansas, Fayetteville, and the lab 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:48.039 I'm in is called the molecular... Muscle Mass 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:51.100 Regulation Lab. We call it M3R because it's three 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:54.619 Ms. And so the work I'm doing now is with Dr. 00:00:54.740 --> 00:00:57.100 Kevin Murak. He's done a lot of work in skeletal 00:00:57.100 --> 00:00:59.500 muscle growth. And currently right now, we're 00:00:59.500 --> 00:01:01.920 mainly focused on looking at hypertrophy. He's 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:04.180 done a lot of work in what this opinion piece 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:06.760 is about, looking at myonuclei, whether or not 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:09.859 they're permanent or whether they go away or 00:01:09.859 --> 00:01:11.859 this kind of idea of muscle memory. All right. 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.299 So I invited you because you have written a piece 00:01:14.299 --> 00:01:18.129 on muscle memory theories. So could we start 00:01:18.129 --> 00:01:20.810 with some kind of definition? Sure. So this idea 00:01:20.810 --> 00:01:23.989 of muscle memory kind of stems from the idea 00:01:23.989 --> 00:01:27.719 that kind of anecdotally, people that lift or 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.040 do sports and participate in sports, we kind 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:33.120 of noticed or we've come to know that when you 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.019 stop exercising and then you restart exercising, 00:01:36.420 --> 00:01:39.000 you tend to see some muscle growth a little bit 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:41.280 quicker than when you first started. So, for 00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:44.939 example, I weight lifted for several years. And 00:01:44.939 --> 00:01:47.519 if you take, say, like three months off because 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.760 you had a slight injury or whatever personal 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:51.900 life experiences that happened to you, you take 00:01:51.900 --> 00:01:53.980 some time off and you get back into lifting. 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.879 We generally tend to see the rebound to be relatively 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.000 quick and so we thought this idea of muscle memory 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:01.840 is like that there's something there that's that's 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.659 keeping track of our progress to get us back 00:02:04.659 --> 00:02:06.780 to that same point that we left off with the 00:02:06.780 --> 00:02:10.139 idea is when you stop and then you restart you 00:02:10.139 --> 00:02:13.659 bounce back faster than you would expect service 00:02:13.659 --> 00:02:16.219 so you're not starting from zero that's basically 00:02:16.219 --> 00:02:19.560 right and that's the general idea there and i 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.340 think a lot of people that have been around exercise 00:02:22.340 --> 00:02:25.650 sports or weightlifting kind of know that Just 00:02:25.650 --> 00:02:27.930 from experience, when you take some time off 00:02:27.930 --> 00:02:30.530 for whatever reason and you get back into it, 00:02:30.610 --> 00:02:32.650 yeah, you tend to bounce back a little bit quicker 00:02:32.650 --> 00:02:36.129 than you might expect. So the follow -up question 00:02:36.129 --> 00:02:40.150 is why? I mean, with anything, it's an active, 00:02:40.270 --> 00:02:42.889 pretty active field. So I think early on, we 00:02:42.889 --> 00:02:46.409 thought that it had to do with this idea that 00:02:46.409 --> 00:02:49.610 the nuclei within your muscle cells. So muscle 00:02:49.610 --> 00:02:53.750 is pretty unique in that it has many nuclei for 00:02:53.750 --> 00:02:56.349 most of the cells. in our body it's we're limited 00:02:56.349 --> 00:02:58.610 to one nuclei per cell and so muscle cells they 00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:01.889 have thousands of nuclei per muscle fiber and 00:03:01.889 --> 00:03:04.750 so early on we thought the memory came from those 00:03:04.750 --> 00:03:09.409 nuclei and it does but how we hold on to it is 00:03:09.409 --> 00:03:11.610 kind of a little bit more nuanced and so early 00:03:11.610 --> 00:03:13.669 on we thought you know we can do these these 00:03:13.669 --> 00:03:16.750 training studies we look at the muscle and sure 00:03:16.750 --> 00:03:19.729 enough we see an increase in myonuclei or the 00:03:19.729 --> 00:03:22.129 nuclei specific to the muscle fibers and so we 00:03:22.129 --> 00:03:24.860 thought okay if the nuclei numbers increasing, 00:03:24.939 --> 00:03:28.580 then that's what's giving us our memory is we've 00:03:28.580 --> 00:03:30.819 just had more nuclei. And so they're able to 00:03:30.819 --> 00:03:33.319 kind of hold on to, quote unquote, the memory 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:36.659 of where we were at in our training. And so we've 00:03:36.659 --> 00:03:40.199 done, I say we as collective scientists, because 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.199 I haven't done this. So my mentor, he's done 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:46.300 a lot of work in this area. And there's plenty 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:48.379 of other scientists that have done way more of 00:03:48.379 --> 00:03:50.400 the work in this field. So I'm just kind of getting 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:52.879 started there. But so we thought that my own 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:55.439 nuclei. would kind of be key there. And so they 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:57.659 run these training studies. And so the training 00:03:57.659 --> 00:04:00.740 studies actually showed in humans that we don't 00:04:00.740 --> 00:04:02.699 tend to really lose nuclei, or at least within 00:04:02.699 --> 00:04:05.280 the time scope that we tend to look at. There 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:07.340 are some studies that show that you can lose 00:04:07.340 --> 00:04:09.759 the myonuclei during this period of detraining, 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:11.919 right? So when you stop training, the number 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:13.919 of myonuclei tend to go down, you see muscle 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:16.740 atrophy. And so depending on how you design these 00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:20.779 studies, we can see the drop. So that means that 00:04:20.779 --> 00:04:22.959 the myonuclear number isn't necessary. necessarily 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:25.199 the answer here. It might be part of it. We're 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:27.500 not 100 % sure yet for that. But there's also 00:04:27.500 --> 00:04:30.259 these other mechanisms that we think are probably 00:04:30.259 --> 00:04:34.160 more appropriate. And so we have, you know, things 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:38.180 like epigenetics. And so what? The field of epigenetics 00:04:38.180 --> 00:04:41.980 is basically we have DNA within all of our cells, 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:45.240 right? Our DNA is more or less set in stone, 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.100 right? So all the genes that we have are a result 00:04:48.100 --> 00:04:50.620 of the combination of our parents and all the 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:54.000 human DNA that came before them. But epigenetics 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.100 is... which of those genes is actually turned 00:04:57.100 --> 00:05:00.399 on or accessible to be turned on. And that can 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.480 change depending on different processes. So we 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:05.560 have what's called methylation. So you have these 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:08.199 methyl groups that attach to your DNA and they 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:11.459 basically unravel or tighten your DNA so that 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:14.279 when you have whatever stimulus, depending on 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.540 your environment, then certain genes will either 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:20.040 turn on or turn off. And so that I think is where 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:22.779 we're heading in this field is that the myonuclei, 00:05:22.939 --> 00:05:25.990 yes, adding. more nuclei can definitely help 00:05:25.990 --> 00:05:29.329 you to kind of bounce back faster. But also the 00:05:29.329 --> 00:05:32.730 memory really is held within the epigenetics 00:05:32.730 --> 00:05:36.470 because the methylation tends to stick around. 00:05:36.730 --> 00:05:39.810 And so the memory within your DNA for basically 00:05:39.810 --> 00:05:42.930 telling which genes are able to be transcribed 00:05:42.930 --> 00:05:46.670 seems to be playing a larger role than the number 00:05:46.670 --> 00:05:49.970 of nuclei. Wow. So is it that we thought before 00:05:49.970 --> 00:05:55.110 that nuclei, myonuclei, are being built as you 00:05:55.110 --> 00:05:57.550 progress in your training. They are added to 00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:00.209 the muscle fibers. And then the stronger you 00:06:00.209 --> 00:06:03.310 get, the more hypertrophic the muscles get, the 00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:07.250 more nuclei you acquire. And when you are going 00:06:07.250 --> 00:06:10.310 through detraining, they stick. But you say, 00:06:10.470 --> 00:06:13.310 depending on the study design, so I assume depending 00:06:13.310 --> 00:06:16.709 on the period, how long that... Exactly. So depending 00:06:16.709 --> 00:06:18.490 on the length of the period that you're actually 00:06:18.490 --> 00:06:21.649 looking at detraining. So when does it start 00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:25.019 to dip down? isn't super clear. And how long 00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:27.279 do they hold on to this quote unquote memory 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.939 is also not super clear. So for human data, these 00:06:30.939 --> 00:06:33.279 studies are pretty tough to run, right? Because 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:35.300 you have to gather people, you have to train 00:06:35.300 --> 00:06:37.699 them, and hopefully they're not previously trained, 00:06:37.779 --> 00:06:39.399 right? So they have to be pretty novice training. 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:42.040 And then you train them for three months. That 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:44.379 in itself is a feat. And then you have to detrain 00:06:44.379 --> 00:06:46.680 them, make sure that they stick around and that 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:48.500 they're not actually trained during that detraining 00:06:48.500 --> 00:06:50.800 period. And that can go from, you know, one month, 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:52.699 three months, six months. and then you have to 00:06:52.699 --> 00:06:54.819 retrain them. So that's a lot of time, right? 00:06:54.899 --> 00:06:57.560 So you have to put in nine months to like a year 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:00.079 or longer to really do a study like this. And 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.339 we've done these studies and they're definitely 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:04.660 out there, but they're very, very few. And so 00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:06.319 the information we can really gather and then 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.480 apply on a grand scale is a little bit limited. 00:07:09.579 --> 00:07:13.009 But with that said, we do see that with... training 00:07:13.009 --> 00:07:15.949 within novice individuals, we see that increase 00:07:15.949 --> 00:07:18.750 in the myonuclei. And generally speaking, when 00:07:18.750 --> 00:07:21.870 we look at hypertrophy, what's happening is we 00:07:21.870 --> 00:07:24.750 have the addition of myonuclei into the muscle 00:07:24.750 --> 00:07:27.490 fiber, and that basically donates the capacity 00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:30.370 to build more proteins and send more signals, 00:07:30.490 --> 00:07:33.389 not only for further hypertrophy, but also to 00:07:33.389 --> 00:07:35.829 repair the muscle tissue. So the larger the muscle 00:07:35.829 --> 00:07:38.129 gets, the more nuclei you need to then repair 00:07:38.129 --> 00:07:41.410 that muscle. And so adding nuclei is very beneficial 00:07:41.410 --> 00:07:45.089 in that sense. And so as we detrain, we tend 00:07:45.089 --> 00:07:48.009 to see muscles get smaller and we do see a bit 00:07:48.009 --> 00:07:51.310 of a fiber type specific loss in some nuclei. 00:07:51.389 --> 00:07:54.310 And so it seems that the fast fiber types tend 00:07:54.310 --> 00:07:56.670 to drop nuclei a little bit quicker or sooner. 00:07:56.850 --> 00:07:59.970 And so that kind of goes back to some of the 00:07:59.970 --> 00:08:02.509 work that I did in my previous lab and even in 00:08:02.509 --> 00:08:04.410 my master's work where we're looking at fiber 00:08:04.410 --> 00:08:06.990 types, both in weightlifters and just kind of 00:08:06.990 --> 00:08:09.370 general population. These fast fiber types seem 00:08:09.370 --> 00:08:12.870 to be pretty important. on which fast fiber types 00:08:12.870 --> 00:08:15.810 you're looking at, they have different kind of, 00:08:15.810 --> 00:08:17.970 not side effects, but they are different. So 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:20.350 we have 2X fibers, right? So generally speaking, 00:08:20.470 --> 00:08:23.910 we don't really see 2X fibers in humans, but 00:08:23.910 --> 00:08:26.029 we do see a lot of these 2As and 2As seem to 00:08:26.029 --> 00:08:28.569 be very beneficial, mainly because they share 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:32.070 some metabolic properties that are both sugar 00:08:32.070 --> 00:08:35.690 breakdown properties and also fat breakdown properties, 00:08:35.950 --> 00:08:38.269 or we don't see with 2X. And then with our slow 00:08:38.269 --> 00:08:41.419 fiber types, they're mostly just... fat burning 00:08:41.419 --> 00:08:45.860 machines. And so as we age, but also with strength 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:49.080 athletes, we see more of these 2As and a lot 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.200 less of these 2Xs. And so with detraining, we 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.100 tend to see an increase in what are called hybrids. 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.759 And these hybrids are generally speaking 2A, 00:08:56.779 --> 00:08:59.379 2X hybrids with detraining. So that means that 00:08:59.379 --> 00:09:01.799 the fiber types are actually shifting from 2A 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:05.379 towards 2X mainly. And this is still a hypothesis 00:09:05.379 --> 00:09:08.679 and the field is trying to get the answer, but 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:10.620 not really getting it. too much closer to it 00:09:10.620 --> 00:09:13.740 essentially we think that the 2x fiber type is 00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:16.179 kind of the default expression when you're not 00:09:16.179 --> 00:09:18.899 moving or not stimulating the muscle tissue it's 00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:21.039 interesting because within like human development 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:24.399 or i guess mammalian development so all mammals 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:27.960 tend to express 2x first within like their early 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:31.620 development and then as they become more ambulatory 00:09:31.620 --> 00:09:33.659 or start moving around then we start to develop 00:09:33.659 --> 00:09:36.639 the different fiber types and so within sedentary 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.379 or quote unquote detraining, right? So if you're 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:41.279 injured or whatever, you're on bedrest or you 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:43.600 can't walk because you broke your foot or whatever 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:46.460 it is, then you're not stimulating that muscle 00:09:46.460 --> 00:09:48.460 tissue the same way that you were before. You're 00:09:48.460 --> 00:09:51.259 not sending neural signals to the muscle tissue, 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:54.039 which motor units tend to drive, at least in 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:56.759 part, some of the fiber type adaptations. And 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.429 so the less firing you have there, the less stimulation 00:10:00.429 --> 00:10:02.710 you have to either have that two -way or type 00:10:02.710 --> 00:10:04.649 one muscle fiber. And so you tend to express 00:10:04.649 --> 00:10:07.580 two acts kind of by default. Yeah. Can I just 00:10:07.580 --> 00:10:10.340 stop for a moment? Because it sounds like 2X 00:10:10.340 --> 00:10:14.240 is, I will say harshly, it's a bad option. Yeah, 00:10:14.299 --> 00:10:17.299 and I struggle to say that it's like a bad fiber 00:10:17.299 --> 00:10:20.740 type because... What are consequences metabolically 00:10:20.740 --> 00:10:24.960 for having a huge number of 2X? You said 2A, 00:10:25.100 --> 00:10:28.799 very good in burning both sugars and fat. So 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.879 what 2X? is doing that we know exercise is good. 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.740 It is good metabolically for the body. So I assume 00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:41.580 there is a connection there. Yeah. So 2X is an 00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:45.500 interesting one because it's mostly sugar utilizing. 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.679 It has almost no ability to really process. fats. 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.440 If you look at muscles that express a lot of 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.940 these two Xs, they tend to not have a whole lot 00:10:55.940 --> 00:10:58.179 of mitochondria, which means that they're not 00:10:58.179 --> 00:10:59.820 producing a whole lot of energy for themselves, 00:10:59.899 --> 00:11:02.019 but they burn through that energy pretty quickly 00:11:02.019 --> 00:11:04.980 because they're rapidly contracting. So whatever 00:11:04.980 --> 00:11:07.419 energy sources that they do have, they burn through 00:11:07.419 --> 00:11:09.159 them pretty quickly. And so essentially they're 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:13.279 mainly relying on like glycogen stores. So sugar 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.639 stores within your muscle tissue that they will 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.460 then burn for contraction. And this is where 00:11:18.730 --> 00:11:21.110 I get a little bit hung up because I don't want 00:11:21.110 --> 00:11:23.850 to say that they're necessarily bad. They have 00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:26.570 their their role in human physiology, obviously. 00:11:26.669 --> 00:11:28.929 Otherwise, we wouldn't have them. Right. We just 00:11:28.929 --> 00:11:31.850 don't fully understand what their use is yet 00:11:31.850 --> 00:11:34.389 because they tend to come up by default. They 00:11:34.389 --> 00:11:37.730 also tend to come up when we're inactive. Some 00:11:37.730 --> 00:11:41.070 people that are high performers do express some 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:43.889 of these pure type two X's. The case that always 00:11:43.889 --> 00:11:46.509 comes to mind is a world champion hurdler. He 00:11:46.509 --> 00:11:50.629 this is bad. Back in like 2001, maybe or early 00:11:50.629 --> 00:11:53.110 2000, I forget the year, but a group of Ball 00:11:53.110 --> 00:11:55.190 State basically got a world champion hurdler 00:11:55.190 --> 00:11:57.610 and they took biopsies from his leg. And then 00:11:57.610 --> 00:11:59.870 they look at the fiber types and he expressed 00:11:59.870 --> 00:12:04.370 24%, I believe, like pure type 2X, which is just 00:12:04.370 --> 00:12:06.509 unheard of. Why that was the case, I have no 00:12:06.509 --> 00:12:08.730 idea. Obviously, it's the case study. So that's 00:12:08.730 --> 00:12:10.750 not, you know, it's not intended to be like, 00:12:10.850 --> 00:12:13.929 oh, if you're a world champion sprinter, like 00:12:13.929 --> 00:12:15.710 you're going to have these fast 2Xs. That's not 00:12:15.710 --> 00:12:18.000 necessarily the case for every. one but yeah 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.159 the the 2x is interesting in that sense but it's 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:25.220 also interesting because when people are injured 00:12:25.220 --> 00:12:27.879 say like a spinal cord injury and they lose all 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:30.740 neural input they express these 2xs as well so 00:12:30.740 --> 00:12:34.179 are they detrimental potentially yes and i tend 00:12:34.179 --> 00:12:37.940 to lean towards they they are generally metabolically 00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:40.779 disadvantageous okay so we don't necessarily 00:12:40.779 --> 00:12:44.169 want a whole lot of these 2xs because They don't 00:12:44.169 --> 00:12:47.370 allow you to really burn our normal fuel sources. 00:12:47.750 --> 00:12:50.809 And I say normal because we tend to rely on both 00:12:50.809 --> 00:12:54.090 glycogen and fat burning. Can you burn, I guess, 00:12:54.129 --> 00:12:56.830 protein? Sure. But that's also detrimental to 00:12:56.830 --> 00:13:00.370 muscle tissue overall. And I guess with that 00:13:00.370 --> 00:13:02.610 as well, you kind of start losing some of the 00:13:02.610 --> 00:13:05.970 other metabolic proteins like your glucose transporting 00:13:05.970 --> 00:13:09.129 proteins that actually shuttle glucose from your 00:13:09.129 --> 00:13:12.450 bloodstream into your cells for either storage 00:13:12.450 --> 00:13:14.970 as glycogen. or to use immediately for muscle 00:13:14.970 --> 00:13:17.370 contractions, those tend to start to go away 00:13:17.370 --> 00:13:19.990 as well as we shift towards these two Xs. So 00:13:19.990 --> 00:13:24.250 detrimental, yes. Bad is necessarily the right 00:13:24.250 --> 00:13:27.149 term, I think, but they're definitely not very 00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:31.009 beneficial to what we would term as normal metabolism. 00:13:31.929 --> 00:13:34.690 I may make it up, but did you do some research 00:13:34.690 --> 00:13:38.669 with people with obesity or was there something 00:13:38.669 --> 00:13:42.309 to it too? Yeah, there are several ways to... 00:13:42.350 --> 00:13:46.149 get to poor metabolism right so having an excess 00:13:46.149 --> 00:13:50.490 it seems an excess in not just calories but an 00:13:50.490 --> 00:13:53.549 excess and sugar in your blood as well as lipids 00:13:53.549 --> 00:13:56.149 in your blood so as we eat high sugar high fat 00:13:56.149 --> 00:13:58.850 diets which is kind of our western diet or kind 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:01.210 of what the most of the the world is kind of 00:14:01.210 --> 00:14:03.669 getting used to at these at this point and so 00:14:03.669 --> 00:14:07.330 when we have these heck super high calorie dense 00:14:07.330 --> 00:14:10.929 foods that are high in sugars added sugars i 00:14:10.929 --> 00:14:13.710 should add not just sugar on itself because sugar 00:14:13.710 --> 00:14:17.490 is good just add in sugar and then excess in 00:14:17.490 --> 00:14:21.929 fats that results in obviously higher blood glucose 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.159 also higher blood lipids. And that requires that 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.940 insulin be secreted throughout your system to 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:30.759 then bring all of that stuff into your tissues 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:32.320 if you're not using it. And so this is where 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:34.639 it becomes really detrimental to have a lot of 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.820 blood or high blood glucose and lipids is that 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:41.120 insulin is then increased for a long time because 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.159 it takes a lot longer to actually shuttle in 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.259 and store lipids from your blood. Oftentimes 00:14:45.259 --> 00:14:48.860 they stay in circulation as fatty acids. And 00:14:48.860 --> 00:14:51.580 that's kind of a part of where we get, you know, 00:14:51.580 --> 00:14:54.669 our... HDL and LDL from. And I think most people 00:14:54.669 --> 00:14:57.549 would understand what those are. And so those 00:14:57.549 --> 00:15:01.009 constantly in circulation seems to be detrimental 00:15:01.009 --> 00:15:04.090 to not just muscle tissue, but obviously the 00:15:04.090 --> 00:15:07.009 whole system. What tends to happen is we get 00:15:07.009 --> 00:15:09.370 low grade inflammation, which is a pretty common 00:15:09.370 --> 00:15:14.110 or known kind of side effect or symptom of obesity 00:15:14.110 --> 00:15:17.149 is we have low grade inflammation, meaning you 00:15:17.149 --> 00:15:18.970 have you're kind of walking around day to day 00:15:18.970 --> 00:15:21.129 with some level of inflammation and inflammation. 00:15:21.230 --> 00:15:24.730 is not good right so you're you're sending signals 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:27.190 out to your body that there's some type of injury 00:15:27.190 --> 00:15:29.330 that needs correcting and so you're constantly 00:15:29.330 --> 00:15:31.570 breaking down different proteins throughout your 00:15:31.570 --> 00:15:34.149 body and so we start to lose the ability to actually 00:15:34.149 --> 00:15:36.850 shuttle in some of that blood sugar from the 00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:38.549 blood and we also start to lose some of that 00:15:38.549 --> 00:15:41.470 ability to shuttle in some of the lipids from 00:15:41.470 --> 00:15:44.289 our blood or we'll stop shuttling it into our 00:15:44.289 --> 00:15:46.750 muscle tissue and we start inserting it into, 00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:50.610 say, our liver for fatty liver disease. Fat tends 00:15:50.610 --> 00:15:52.409 to, if it's not going into the muscle cells, 00:15:52.690 --> 00:15:54.789 it'll go in between the muscle cells. So you 00:15:54.789 --> 00:15:57.409 get these fat droplets that is infiltrating into 00:15:57.409 --> 00:15:58.990 the muscle tissue itself and not necessarily 00:15:58.990 --> 00:16:01.710 the muscle cells for energy use. It's just there 00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:04.990 as storage. And that causes kind of further inflammation 00:16:04.990 --> 00:16:07.049 and interference to all the different signaling 00:16:07.049 --> 00:16:09.470 mechanisms that we generally have in a healthy 00:16:09.470 --> 00:16:12.210 muscle. And so that can also be pretty detrimental. 00:16:12.269 --> 00:16:15.620 It seems that there's potential for... kind of 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:19.519 a loss of some of these muscle memory mechanisms 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.360 within obesity as well. I'm saying that in the 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.559 sense that we lose both the number of myonuclei 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:31.299 in obesity. We also lose some of the DNA epigenetic 00:16:31.299 --> 00:16:34.120 markers that we know to be beneficial for kind 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:36.799 of bouncing back super quicker. But also in a 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:39.860 general sense, obese individuals aren't exercising 00:16:39.860 --> 00:16:43.080 as much. It does happen. And there is a such 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:45.120 thing as, you know, the health. obese individual 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.320 that might be controversial but obese people 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.620 can be metabolically healthy even with some excess 00:16:50.620 --> 00:16:53.700 fat obviously there's a point there we have thresholds 00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:56.779 of kind of body fat levels that is then deemed 00:16:56.779 --> 00:16:59.320 as healthy or not healthy and it seems that some 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.019 fat isn't the end of the world and i think as 00:17:02.019 --> 00:17:06.200 a society we would move a lot into a much better 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:09.759 place if we stop demonizing moderate obesity 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:14.880 because i i don't see the full harm in having 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.460 some excess that obviously there's levels of 00:17:18.460 --> 00:17:20.720 it. Okay, cheeky question. If you would have 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:24.319 a person who is visually... thin or thin -ish, 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:28.039 does nothing though, sits in front of the computer 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:30.599 the whole day and then in front of the TV for 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:33.539 the rest of the day. So let's assume they have 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:37.880 lots of 2X fibers and then we have a person who 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:41.579 stores a bit more fat, but they are exercising, 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.019 doing strength training. They are a weightlifter, 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:50.240 let's say. Their diet is meat, vegetables, lollies 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:54.279 in the gym. Pretty... pretty okay diet maybe 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:56.619 on the weekend they will have a takeout who will 00:17:56.619 --> 00:17:59.779 be metabolically healthier you think almost in 00:17:59.779 --> 00:18:02.740 every case if they're doing some type of exercise 00:18:02.740 --> 00:18:04.400 they're going to be more metabolically healthy 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.220 wow even if you're thin and have a generally 00:18:07.220 --> 00:18:10.119 healthy diet but you're mostly sedentary you 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.279 have a desk job and you spend the rest of your 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.440 time in front of the tv you're you're not stimulating 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.599 you're so you're we are highly highly adaptable 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.579 beings and we will adapt to be very very efficient 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:24.920 in whatever scenario we're in, right? So if your 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.680 scenario is desk job and then spending the rest 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.759 of your time in front of a TV, our metabolism 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:33.400 is going to start to ramp down at some point. 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:35.720 And then if you're eating generally healthy, 00:18:35.900 --> 00:18:39.259 that's great for say digestive purposes, I guess, 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.700 but like you're not simulating your muscle tissue, 00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:44.039 which is not, our muscle tissue is one of the 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:47.839 most metabolic tissues that we have. And so when 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:51.740 it comes to metabolism, And we want to burn sugars 00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:54.180 and fats from our diets. That's not necessarily 00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:57.579 a one -to -one there, obviously. But to be quote 00:18:57.579 --> 00:19:00.200 -unquote metabolically healthy and cardiovascularly 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:02.440 healthy, we have to stress the system, right? 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.559 So if you want to stress the system, you have 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.539 to move. Your heart doesn't have a demand to 00:19:07.539 --> 00:19:09.640 pump harder and faster if you're just sitting. 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.740 In the same case that your muscle tissue isn't 00:19:12.740 --> 00:19:14.700 going to grow or become stronger if you're not. 00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:17.210 demanding that it lift something that's it's 00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:19.269 never lifted before and that's generally what 00:19:19.269 --> 00:19:22.109 exercise is it's pushing our bodies to do something 00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:24.250 that they haven't done before so they can then 00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:26.690 adapt and then achieve that thing that it couldn't 00:19:26.690 --> 00:19:29.529 do at one point and I think that's one of the 00:19:29.529 --> 00:19:32.589 most fascinating things about exercise and kind 00:19:32.589 --> 00:19:35.609 of the human body is how it adapts and I think 00:19:35.609 --> 00:19:39.089 that you know those two scenarios couldn't highlight 00:19:39.089 --> 00:19:43.240 that more The person that is mostly sedentary, 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.900 has an okay diet, is always going to have a similar 00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:50.299 level of metabolic health as someone who's obese 00:19:50.299 --> 00:19:52.480 and exercises a little bit. The person who's 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.420 obese and exercises more than kind of our general 00:19:56.420 --> 00:19:59.180 guidelines, which is like whatever it is, American 00:19:59.180 --> 00:20:02.259 Heart Association and like the American College 00:20:02.259 --> 00:20:04.339 of Sports Medicine have the guidelines set at 00:20:04.339 --> 00:20:06.960 like 150 minutes a week or something like that. 00:20:07.099 --> 00:20:09.240 So if you're hitting that, like you're probably 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:12.079 going to be. pretty healthy definitely more healthy 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:14.880 than someone who's who's sedentary wow this is 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.279 huge okay so could we go back a little bit to 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:22.000 more methylation and epigenetics and i would 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.700 like you to explain a little bit more how the 00:20:24.700 --> 00:20:28.440 adaptation happens there and how long does it 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.579 stay forever how big of an investment because 00:20:30.579 --> 00:20:33.329 i think in for the body As you said, the body 00:20:33.329 --> 00:20:36.430 is adapting. So you challenge the body and then 00:20:36.430 --> 00:20:40.519 it adapts. If the adaptation costs a lot. it 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.920 will stay for longer because it takes so much 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:48.640 to build it up. So you said nuclei go away after 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.680 some time. They stick around for some time because 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.140 that's where we came from. So what happens with 00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:58.339 methylation? Yeah, so with methylation, so we 00:20:58.339 --> 00:21:00.839 get hypermethylation, which means we have a lot 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.859 of methyl groups around our DNA. And that tends 00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:09.549 to cover up some of the genetic codes. that need 00:21:09.549 --> 00:21:12.670 to be expressed for whatever. So if, say, the 00:21:12.670 --> 00:21:15.329 genetic code for more muscle tissue is in this 00:21:15.329 --> 00:21:18.690 specific part of your DNA, we want to have a 00:21:18.690 --> 00:21:21.049 specific methylation pattern to make sure that 00:21:21.049 --> 00:21:23.109 those genetic codes are actually being revealed 00:21:23.109 --> 00:21:25.549 so that our bodies can then read your DNA and 00:21:25.549 --> 00:21:27.470 then send those signals out and then build those 00:21:27.470 --> 00:21:30.710 proteins, right? So the central dogma of biology 00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:34.099 states that, you know, We go from DNA to RNA 00:21:34.099 --> 00:21:37.859 to proteins. And so our DNA stores all of that 00:21:37.859 --> 00:21:41.660 information. RNA is basically the signal or the 00:21:41.660 --> 00:21:44.119 transfer, or I would say maybe the blueprints, 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:46.400 right? Blueprints are being sent out. And then 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:50.160 we have a delivery system so that RNA is actually 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:51.720 delivered to the tissues that they need to be 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.089 delivered to. And then they're read. and then 00:21:54.089 --> 00:21:56.210 built into proteins, right? And so that's kind 00:21:56.210 --> 00:22:00.150 of the central idea around epigenetics is that 00:22:00.150 --> 00:22:03.890 we're using, we're not using specifically us, 00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.509 but our bodies are then making it easier or more 00:22:07.509 --> 00:22:10.710 accessible for certain genes to then be expressed. 00:22:10.890 --> 00:22:13.289 And that makes it easier for something like adaptations, 00:22:13.569 --> 00:22:16.869 right? So the more we exercise. Those adaptations 00:22:16.869 --> 00:22:20.730 change our methylation patterns. And I'm sticking 00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:24.670 to methylation patterns because some hypermethylated 00:22:24.670 --> 00:22:29.829 regions will drop or downregulate genes and hypomethylation 00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:32.990 regions will increase the expression of the certain 00:22:32.990 --> 00:22:35.490 genes. And some downregulation is beneficial 00:22:35.490 --> 00:22:38.789 and some upregulation is beneficial. And vice 00:22:38.789 --> 00:22:42.650 versa, right? Both hypo and hypermethylations. 00:22:43.289 --> 00:22:46.049 are good depending on the place where it happens. 00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:49.549 Yes. Our general take is the patterns of hyper 00:22:49.549 --> 00:22:52.930 and hypomethylation is what's being held on to 00:22:52.930 --> 00:22:56.410 in muscle memory, at least in part. And so how 00:22:56.410 --> 00:22:59.160 long... that pattern is sticking into our DNA, 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:01.259 we're not really sure. And that's where we get 00:23:01.259 --> 00:23:04.160 into a little bit more of the weeds. We have 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.740 a lot less data to really say for sure how long 00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:10.119 these timescales are very difficult to achieve. 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.640 As I mentioned before, for the human data, you 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:14.960 know, you're looking at over a year of these 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:17.720 individuals having to participate in a study 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.380 like this. So this is where some animal work 00:23:20.380 --> 00:23:22.859 can actually be super beneficial, right? because 00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.700 their lifespans are much shorter. And so we can 00:23:25.700 --> 00:23:30.000 do things in kind of a condensed timescale, but 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.180 their lifespans are much faster. So they're returning 00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:34.980 over cells a little bit faster than we are. And 00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:37.319 so we can see kind of the progression in a similar, 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:39.759 but not a one -to -one ratio, obviously. So it 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:41.900 doesn't transfer as well. And so some of the 00:23:41.900 --> 00:23:44.599 animal work that's been done has shown that, 00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:48.339 yes. But epigenetics is a portion of it, right? 00:23:48.380 --> 00:23:52.119 So the patterns of methylation for these different 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:55.380 regions within our DNA to express certain genes 00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:58.259 are important. But again, it still isn't super 00:23:58.259 --> 00:24:00.579 clear. And I think we're probably getting pretty 00:24:00.579 --> 00:24:02.400 close to answering some of these questions, but 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.400 we're not super clear on what that timescale 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.059 is. But at the moment, I think it's still up 00:24:07.059 --> 00:24:09.900 in the air. We know muscle memory exists as a 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.440 concept because we can see that these different 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.460 methylation patterns are sticking for some time. 00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:17.299 We just don't know how long. And that's both 00:24:17.299 --> 00:24:21.519 in humans and some of the animal data. The person 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:24.400 is training, training, training. Then they have 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:27.619 a period they detrain. For some time, muscle 00:24:27.619 --> 00:24:30.619 nuclei will hold and then methylation patterns 00:24:30.619 --> 00:24:36.279 will hold. Can we see that nuclei drop or start 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:39.740 dying earlier than the methylation? Yeah. Yeah, 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:41.779 we definitely see that happening. Which is kind 00:24:41.779 --> 00:24:43.819 of what brought us to think that, okay, well, 00:24:43.900 --> 00:24:47.640 if it's not necessarily the dropout or kind of 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:50.240 dying off of some of the nuclei, but we're still 00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:52.480 seeing the bounce back. So then that means that 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:54.799 the nuclei wasn't the answer, but there's still 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.339 something acting, giving us that faster bounce 00:24:57.339 --> 00:24:59.839 back. So what is that? And so we were able to 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:02.559 figure out that it's in part this methylation 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.519 patterning. There's also kind of, we build up 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:08.880 some of the machinery. And so part of the machinery 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.450 for... Gene expression is what are called ribosomes 00:25:12.450 --> 00:25:15.420 are kind of the... contract builders, they read 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:17.740 the blueprints and then they kind of build all 00:25:17.740 --> 00:25:19.660 the proteins. And so the more ribosomes that 00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:22.119 we have in our bodies, then the more proteins 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:23.819 we can pump out, right? The more blueprints we 00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:25.359 can read through and the more proteins we can 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.079 build. And so the more we have of those, we think 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:31.099 that increases our capacity to then drive more 00:25:31.099 --> 00:25:33.599 adaptation. But that's still a hypothesis. We 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:35.799 see some hints of it here and there in certain 00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:39.539 studies, but I wouldn't say that that is a sure 00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:41.660 thing just yet. And how long those stick around 00:25:41.660 --> 00:25:44.039 as an adaptation is... isn't super clear either. 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:47.240 So I know I'm saying a lot of, I don't know, 00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:49.720 but I think that's just where the field is at 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.059 right now is like, it's still very early, which 00:25:52.059 --> 00:25:53.819 is, I think, really fascinating. I mean, it kind 00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:55.779 of gets into, we also mentioned in the paper, 00:25:55.859 --> 00:25:58.299 the impact towards like steroid use, right? So 00:25:58.299 --> 00:26:02.319 if myonuclear permanence or the addition of myonuclein 00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:04.980 to the muscle tissue, do they stay? Like if that's 00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:08.559 true, and if that's a result of steroid use, 00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:11.920 then how can we make sporting fair for someone 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.839 who is... already been you know convicted it 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:17.420 is probably not the same the right word but sanctioned 00:26:17.420 --> 00:26:19.299 if they've already been sanctioned and then they 00:26:19.299 --> 00:26:21.900 they're allowed to participate again is it still 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:24.559 fair right if they're presumably still training 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:26.420 they haven't stopped they may have stopped using 00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:28.420 the steroids but are they still gaining the benefits 00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:30.200 from that and we're just it's the data is not 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.720 clear and and it's it's a tough one to kind of 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.019 parse out because we can't really do human studies 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:37.559 on that we can do case studies after the fact 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.400 maybe but most of those people aren't going to 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:41.319 want to participate in a study like that anyways 00:26:41.609 --> 00:26:43.589 So what we have to do is we have to do animal 00:26:43.589 --> 00:26:46.650 studies and the animal studies aren't very translatable 00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:49.609 to human data in that case. I have one more question. 00:26:49.789 --> 00:26:51.970 How about mitochondria? What do you mean? Because 00:26:51.970 --> 00:26:55.009 there were studies on powerlifters and weightlifters 00:26:55.009 --> 00:26:59.069 showing that years of strength and power specific 00:26:59.069 --> 00:27:02.569 training changes mitochondria, changes how big 00:27:02.569 --> 00:27:05.769 they are, how many of them you have. And mitochondria 00:27:05.769 --> 00:27:10.170 are responsible for energy production. So in 00:27:10.170 --> 00:27:13.309 the muscle specifically, we're thinking expression 00:27:13.309 --> 00:27:16.369 of power and strength. So would the sticking 00:27:16.369 --> 00:27:21.049 of mitochondria play a role in muscle memory? 00:27:21.289 --> 00:27:23.730 So mitochondria has their own, they have their 00:27:23.730 --> 00:27:26.549 own DNA. So I don't, I'm completely speculating 00:27:26.549 --> 00:27:29.609 because I'm not well informed in the area for 00:27:29.609 --> 00:27:32.369 like mitochondria as it relates to muscle memory. 00:27:32.529 --> 00:27:35.869 But I would think it probably has some degree 00:27:35.869 --> 00:27:38.960 of similarities to muscle nuclei. Simply because 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.339 mitochondria have their own DNA, but also they're 00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:44.000 able to, they're like pretty robust organelles 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.940 in our tissues, not just muscle tissue, but like 00:27:46.940 --> 00:27:50.740 they're pretty well adjusted and they adapt fairly 00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:52.700 well. And like you mentioned that there was that 00:27:52.700 --> 00:27:54.940 study that looked at weightlifters, mitochondria, 00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:57.779 and they had all these great adaptations becoming 00:27:57.779 --> 00:28:00.299 more efficient, essentially, and larger. And 00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:03.579 so I would guess that it's got to play a role 00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:06.980 on some level. What that level might be is beyond 00:28:06.980 --> 00:28:09.779 me. moment so i couldn't say for sure i don't 00:28:09.779 --> 00:28:11.940 think i haven't seen any studies because then 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:15.099 you would have to take if the changes in mitochondria 00:28:15.099 --> 00:28:17.420 are brought by years of training then you have 00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:19.859 to ask this person who was training for years 00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:22.319 to stop training for another two or three years 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.440 to show right exactly to see that you're not 00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:26.599 going to get that but it is a very interesting 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:29.460 question so thanks i'm wondering whether i'm 00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:32.359 doing train any training obviously i'm from the 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:35.220 strength and power perspective more interested 00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:37.559 in that part but training in general Could it 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:40.359 be an investment for life? So it doesn't matter 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:43.079 when you start. Doesn't matter do it for. But 00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:46.140 whatever you do, it stores in your body in one 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:48.220 way or the other. And it's never wasted time. 00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:51.180 Absolutely. I think any adaptation that we're 00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:53.579 driving, I think is going to be held on to at 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:57.319 least in part. And so even, you know, the smallest 00:28:57.319 --> 00:28:59.940 time frame, say you work out for a week and then 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:02.099 you don't work out again for a few months. That 00:29:02.099 --> 00:29:05.619 week wasn't a waste of time. You started the 00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:08.289 process. of some of these kind of muscle memory 00:29:08.289 --> 00:29:10.849 mechanisms to then store some of that adaptation 00:29:10.849 --> 00:29:12.809 so that when you go back into training again, 00:29:13.049 --> 00:29:15.109 you'll kind of bounce back and get to where you 00:29:15.109 --> 00:29:16.910 were at. Now, it might not feel like it because 00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:19.289 we always experience muscle soreness with that, 00:29:19.369 --> 00:29:23.009 but I guarantee you there's some level of a faster 00:29:23.009 --> 00:29:26.950 adaptation that after each repeated bout of exercise, 00:29:27.210 --> 00:29:29.369 you're storing some memory. How much of it is 00:29:29.369 --> 00:29:31.890 being stored, I don't know. But I don't think 00:29:31.890 --> 00:29:35.809 there's such thing as a wasted workout. I read 00:29:35.809 --> 00:29:39.369 a study this week looking at comparing all -cause 00:29:39.369 --> 00:29:43.470 mortality and other health -related and healthy 00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:45.789 aging -related factors. And they looked at people 00:29:45.789 --> 00:29:48.650 who were training regularly, so let's say five 00:29:48.650 --> 00:29:51.529 times a week, people who trained on the weekends, 00:29:51.569 --> 00:29:53.849 so weekend warriors, and did nothing during the 00:29:53.849 --> 00:29:56.210 week, and people who did nothing. And people 00:29:56.210 --> 00:30:00.130 who were weekend warriors, so they would do something 00:30:00.130 --> 00:30:02.450 on the weekend, not necessarily any other time. 00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:04.130 They were closer to people who were regularly 00:30:04.130 --> 00:30:06.480 training. than to people with lichen. So yeah, 00:30:06.619 --> 00:30:09.819 I mean, for as long as I've been in school and 00:30:09.819 --> 00:30:12.000 it's been a long time, we've been saying that, 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:14.200 you know, a little goes a long way and it doesn't 00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:16.339 take very much to get there either. So yeah, 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:18.539 I think that point of weekend warriors being 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:22.539 just as healthy or metabolically fit as people 00:30:22.539 --> 00:30:24.380 that exercise more throughout the week. Yeah, 00:30:24.460 --> 00:30:27.420 you don't have to spend all day every day in 00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:29.619 a gym. You don't have to spend even an hour a 00:30:29.619 --> 00:30:32.019 day. You can spend as little as 30 minutes a 00:30:32.019 --> 00:30:33.980 day. You can spend as little as 30 minutes. And 00:30:33.980 --> 00:30:36.000 it's a week and you'll still get a benefit and 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.779 you're still going to be above someone who's 00:30:38.779 --> 00:30:42.180 not active in every instance. So I think, yeah, 00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:45.759 like the 10 ,000 step rule is less of a goal 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:50.180 to achieve and more a number to make people just 00:30:50.180 --> 00:30:53.079 more active in general. But even still, like, 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:55.640 yeah, you can be a weekend warrior and be just 00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:57.960 as fit as most other individuals, which I think 00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:00.180 is a great message for a lot of people because 00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:03.180 it lowers the bar for a lot of people that. That 00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:07.859 might be intimidated by exercise or demotivated 00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:10.920 because they can't spend more than a couple days 00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:13.539 at the gym or whatever it is. It doesn't take 00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:16.880 a whole lot. You can do it once or twice a week 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.619 and still get all the benefits or at least most 00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:21.920 of them. Everything we've talked about so far 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:26.339 I think is directly beneficial to our weightlifting 00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:30.359 slash strength athlete. For those that are highly 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.789 competitive and those are... who are just recreationally 00:31:33.789 --> 00:31:37.289 competitive I think muscle memory gives us a 00:31:37.289 --> 00:31:39.509 bit of an out not necessarily like step away 00:31:39.509 --> 00:31:41.789 from the sport but to maybe not take it as I 00:31:41.789 --> 00:31:43.650 don't even want to say necessarily not to take 00:31:43.650 --> 00:31:45.769 it as seriously but like if life happens which 00:31:45.769 --> 00:31:47.869 life obviously happens to everybody and you're 00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:51.349 either injured or you have other you know family 00:31:51.349 --> 00:31:53.430 time or whatever it may be and you have to step 00:31:53.430 --> 00:31:55.309 away from the sport it's not the end of the world 00:31:55.309 --> 00:31:58.750 and so I think that is a great benefit of all 00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:01.009 the work that was put in prior to that point 00:32:01.009 --> 00:32:03.369 right so we spend all of our time and I spent 00:32:03.369 --> 00:32:06.049 the vast majority of like my teen years all the 00:32:06.049 --> 00:32:09.029 way through my 20s doing weightlifting and strength 00:32:09.029 --> 00:32:11.750 training really really hard and then my PhD came 00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:15.049 and I trained a lot less and I can tell you now 00:32:15.049 --> 00:32:19.690 even with not having been super consistent or 00:32:19.690 --> 00:32:23.130 really training at the same intensities as I 00:32:23.130 --> 00:32:25.049 was when I was doing weightlifting training so 00:32:25.049 --> 00:32:27.750 doing higher intensity say back squats or whatever 00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:30.630 the snatches or the cleans it comes back even 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:32.859 a few years after not doing it and so I think 00:32:32.859 --> 00:32:36.680 yeah the muscle memory is is a strong adaptation 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.279 I think that we're we're still trying to understand 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:42.059 in its entirety but it's definitely a thing it's 00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:44.839 definitely there and I think it's this idea in 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:48.640 the grand scheme I think creates a bit at least 00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:52.119 for myself it creates a bit of a security to 00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:54.819 know that I don't have to be in there day to 00:32:54.819 --> 00:32:56.740 day and if I miss a workout it's not going to 00:32:56.740 --> 00:32:58.299 be the end of the world and if I have to skip 00:32:58.299 --> 00:33:00.839 a week to a month or if I have to take a year 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.039 off because I'm whatever, for whatever reason, 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.299 like I can always go back to it and I'll bounce 00:33:07.299 --> 00:33:11.380 back. And so oftentimes some of the, so it's 00:33:11.380 --> 00:33:12.960 interesting because some of these studies that 00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.319 look at like the shorter term detraining periods, 00:33:15.460 --> 00:33:18.019 we tend to see a bounce back that's higher than 00:33:18.019 --> 00:33:21.880 the previous sort of. threshold, right? So you 00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:24.019 train and you get to a level, you detrain, and 00:33:24.019 --> 00:33:25.259 then when you come back, you're a little bit 00:33:25.259 --> 00:33:28.140 higher. And so I think that speaks volumes to 00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:32.339 letting your body kind of readjust and heal from 00:33:32.339 --> 00:33:34.960 all the little minor aches and pains that we 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.200 all build up with high intensity training. And 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:41.380 so, yeah, I think it's a great tool to use and 00:33:41.380 --> 00:33:45.240 also just a great piece of information to remember 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.759 and remind yourself that you're always going 00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:49.619 to be able to bounce back. That's a great message. 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:52.799 We should cut it here. Yeah. Finish on that. 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:55.819 On a good high note, yeah. Okay, two short questions 00:33:55.819 --> 00:33:57.720 to finish. The first one is, what is your favorite 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.519 exercise at the moment? I hope you had one. Oh, 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:03.700 one? I don't know anybody who's in exercise that 00:34:03.700 --> 00:34:07.700 has one favorite exercise. So right now, or I 00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:10.760 guess for the last several years, my main exercise 00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:13.159 hobby has been rock climbing. I've shifted a 00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:16.139 little bit from weightlifting to being more rock 00:34:16.139 --> 00:34:18.400 climbing. I still do weightlifting, and I've 00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:20.329 recently... started getting back into it, which 00:34:20.329 --> 00:34:22.429 has been exciting, doing snatches and clean and 00:34:22.429 --> 00:34:24.070 jerks and stuff like that in the gym. But having 00:34:24.070 --> 00:34:26.329 done it for over a decade, close or a little 00:34:26.329 --> 00:34:28.389 over a decade, like I needed something different, 00:34:28.530 --> 00:34:32.070 a being that needs kind of phases of hobbies. 00:34:32.289 --> 00:34:34.849 So right now, rock climbing is a hobby, but I 00:34:34.849 --> 00:34:37.070 still weightlift quite a bit. But if you're asking 00:34:37.070 --> 00:34:40.010 for like a particular exercise, I would always 00:34:40.010 --> 00:34:42.309 say back squats because they're my favorite. 00:34:42.369 --> 00:34:44.929 I prefer to train legs. Almost every day is like 00:34:44.929 --> 00:34:47.630 day for me. So yeah. Awesome. Okay. And where 00:34:47.630 --> 00:34:49.690 people can find you. if they want to follow your 00:34:49.690 --> 00:34:52.889 research and see what... So I'm on Instagram. 00:34:53.030 --> 00:34:56.090 I don't post a whole... Now that it has a little 00:34:56.090 --> 00:34:58.309 repost thing, I definitely repost more research 00:34:58.309 --> 00:35:01.010 and I try to highlight any of the research that 00:35:01.010 --> 00:35:04.090 we're doing here. There and my handle there is 00:35:04.090 --> 00:35:07.349 drnateserano. I think there's a hyphen in there. 00:35:07.449 --> 00:35:10.369 It's like dr -nateserano. We'll post it somewhere, 00:35:10.489 --> 00:35:13.869 I'm sure. Yeah, you do. And then I'm on Blue 00:35:13.869 --> 00:35:16.530 Sky's drnateserano as well. Awesome. Thank you, 00:35:16.530 --> 00:35:18.639 Nate. It was a pleasure. Yep, thank you. Thank 00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:18.719 you.