I mean, that has been actually the abiding thing
that I've always talked about since I started
doing this. And very often with Antonin Urso
was humanizing the athletes. Because so many
of them have a fantastic story. There's a couple
of athletes I know of their background. They
were taken off the streets. They were orphans.
And they ended up being absolutely fantastic
world championship medalists. Hi, Brian. It's
my pleasure to have you on Evidence Strong Show.
If you could briefly introduce yourself. Yeah,
Brian Oliver. I work now for the IWF website,
but in the past, I was a bit of an enemy of the
IWF, you could say, because I worked for a website
called Insight the Games, which was prominent
in reporting all the bad things that happened
in weightlifting in the past 10 to 15 years.
english newspapers and was sports editor of one
of them when it got taken over by another newspaper
and the best job in the world turned bad and
i ended up leaving resigned and went to work
for london 2012 i knew i'd have a job there didn't
know what it would be it ended up being in as
the weightlifting media manager simply because
i had attended a famous session at the 1996 olympic
games and i enjoyed that a lot and the sport
was so corrupt and newsy, full of doping and
corruption and all sorts of things, as well as
being very exciting. So I stayed with it. And
in my freelance career, mostly did weightlifting
and used to go to loads of football, cricket,
rugby matches, etc. But now I still go to football
as a personal enjoyment. But weightlifting is
the only sport I actually go to professionally.
That was a bit of a long introduction. I'll have
to edit that. No, that's OK. So it's 10 plus
years you covering. Weightlifting. You said why
you started bar. Why have you stayed? I've stayed
because I haven't been a weightlifting expert
who does journalism. I've been a quite senior
journalist who liked weightlifting. And the news
in weightlifting was just off the scale compared
to some other sports, the things that were happening.
And I got to know quite a lot of people. I enjoyed
it every time I went to a competition. I got
to know more and more people. I still really
like going. And although I've had a bit of a
wobble in the past year. when I thought I might
stop. The World Championships in Norway were
so good, I'll keep going in tour. Los Angeles
Olympics. Because of what you've said, maybe
we will go to the biggest changes over the years
you've been involved in and commenting on weightlifting.
What were the biggest changes? Which ones you
think were done well and which were big mistakes?
Well, the first thing I'd say is there have been
nowhere near enough changes. For example, one
of the big points made by Antonio Urso was that
the press -out rule should change. The officiating
should change. And there was no real sign of
that happening. And by the way, that's sort of
a misnomer. It isn't the press out rule that
needs to change. It's the bending and extending
rule. But I'll come to that again later. The
changes that have happened, by far the biggest
thing, was recovering from having three presidents
in two Ws in 2020 when everything was really
bad to winning favour back from the IOC. and
being retained for Paris and then get the go
-ahead for Los Angeles and even getting the two
extra places after it was five plus five, now
it's six plus six. All of that was great. The
other things that were particularly good, I suppose
the big thing I've noticed is the growth of women's
weightlifting during that period, which is definitely...
been bigger, I would say in terms of achievement
and in men's weightlifting. And one thing I especially
remember was going to Iran in 2018 and seeing
an eight year old girl on a platform when the
local soldiers tried to stop her coming in because
women weren't allowed. This was the event where
they were. And finally, Iran allowed women to
do weightlifting, which they had never done before.
And even this week in the Islamic Solidarity
Games, Iran's women won a couple of medals. And
that's very good. And it is slowly happening
all around the Gulf because Qatar also won the
super heavyweights. in the women in the Islamic
Solidarity Games. And that is also a landmark
achievement. Then from a personal point of view,
going to China in 2019 for about a week, just
being taken around to... primary schools to bigger
schools to the state or province training center
meeting the greatest coach one of the best scientific
analysts and so on are just learning have within
a translator all the time anybody would speak
to me it was just fascinating learning a lot
about how things work in china obviously seeing
a lot of the best weightlifters like Deng Wei,
Lu Xiaojun, Soren Moradi, Katerina Li Wenwen,
Ia Yin and all this. That's all great. But from
a wider perspective, it was the women, the China.
And the thing I'd like to say that... The biggest
story definitely wasn't is transgender issues
in weightlifting because weightlifting was the
one sport that had the most visible transgender
presence with Laurel Hubbard. But people go on
and on and on about it. But there won't ever
be another one in my view. And there was a story
in a British newspaper last week in the Daily
Mail about how transgender weightlifters are
not blocked from competing in the Commonwealth
Games. Well, it was just ridiculous because how
many are there? There are none. I reckon by the
time I die, there won't be one more because they
can't get in there. Looking back at 13 years
of involvement, what do you think were the biggest
mistakes? Well, they were all political. There
was this thing, the old guard versus the reformers,
which I expect you know about. They were the
people in control. And they didn't change or
stick to the constitution. And to be honest,
sometimes they still don't. They didn't welcome
the investigation. by McLaren into the corruption,
which is understandable because they were the
people being investigated. But they weren't going
to stop there once it started. They should have
just sort of capitulated, really. The game was
up. It went on and on and dragged on. And it
was really, when Ursula Papandrea came in as
interim president, wow, that was, it was tough.
And there was that time when they really did
have three presidents in two days. And it was
just a mess. It was really worse. It was all
political. Everything they did wrong was a result,
as it always is, of people wanting to stay in
power when it's time to go. And really, the biggest
consequence of that, all that sort of trying
to protect... themselves is that they didn't
look ahead, that they weren't changing the things
that needed to change. It might be to do with
presentation or rules or whatever. They just,
it wasn't on the agenda because they were completely
consumed by protecting themselves. So that's
overwhelmingly the worst things that happened.
You know what I'm thinking? Okay, there are problems
and so on, but kicking out the sport out of Olympics
is a very hard, because the sport is not only
the leadership at the top of the organization.
These are committees for each country these are
athletes and their families and in australia
i can choose to be elite weightlifter and i support
myself and i support my passion for the sport
and my competition but there are countries that
have that take kids through the system and the
kids end up being professional athletes who are
on salary governmental salary so are their families
so it's if the sport is kicked out of the olympics
all the countries that have system will not have
these systems. So all the athletes will have
to find other jobs and so on. So it seems like
a very harsh treatment for the sport and the
athletes. Absolutely. Very harsh and you're punishing
the wrong people. So as you say, these systems,
for example, in China, Romania, Iran. wherever
they exist. The funding is there. The system
is there. Colombia is another one. Okay, they've
had doping problems in the past, a lot of these
places. But it's much better to overcome those
problems, to clean up, if you can, and keep things
going, than it is to kick out all the people
who are not responsible for the bad governance
and the corruption. Absolutely. I mean, you never
know for sure. It's possible, but it was all
part of a strategy anyway. Just keep threatening
them, keep threatening them, and eventually they...
will go even if that maybe they never would have
kicked weightlifting out but they certainly behaved
as if they would and they had grounds to do it
as well even if it was unfair they could have
done it but i would also say at this point that
weightlifting has taken a hell of a lot of flack
quite rightly but other sports also have their
doping and they don't seem to have any in this
problem whatsoever like uh well look how many
everybody knows people are doping in athletics
in cycling cycling doesn't particularly have
a bad reputation but what about judo wrestling
boxing and so forth if you look at the wider
reports and the percentage of positive tests
they're not wildly different to weightlifting
they often carry out anywhere near as many tests
but weightlifting is sort of painters the bad
boy or if you like but if the statistics don't
really show that to be the case, or at least
there are lots of bad ones, not just one. And
athletics, for example, had huge topping scandals
in the past too. And I think they went on punishing
the specific people who were responsible, not
the treatment was not kicking out the whole sport
out of Olympics. No, they couldn't do that because
it's the biggest sport in the Olympics. But then
another thing positive about weightlifting is
look at how many members it's got. It must be
after the athletics. I should know this, but
it must be in a top three or four in terms of
world spread. You mean like how many world countries
are associated? Yeah, not just how many countries
are members. That's not really a solid fact because
a lot of the members don't actually have any
weightlifters. They're just there because they're
a vote. But they do have actively a heck of a
lot of member federations. They have an enormous
spread of medal winners. You look at which continents,
which countries. the Olympic Games and World
Championships medalists come from. It's way more
diverse, if you like, than other sports. Way
more. And that's another good thing. It isn't
really a particularly expensive sport to do.
And I would say if you compare it to boxing,
I know women's boxing is growing, but I would
think women's weightlifting is in a much stronger
position, for example, than women's boxing. It's
more established. It's just, I don't know, it's
been around longer. So I suppose that's what
it is. Yeah, that and Rise of CrossFit. Changes
a little bit also in how women are perceived
and how women's bodies perceived and how much
freedoms women have. Freedoms in a sense that
is this push to equal participation in sports
and so on. So that's an opportunity. And I think
weightlifting used this opportunity pretty all
right in many countries. Oh, absolutely. If I
listed all my current favorite weightlifters,
I reckon there would be 80 % women. least and
from all parts of the world and i have the utmost
respect for all weightlifters and coaches that
they're what they do is unbelievably difficult
well done to them for doing it but that some
of what particular women do is just it's amazing
you know aiglo from iceland i don't know if you
know her she's that she's top 10 she is studying
to be a doctor at the same time that she's one
of the top 10 weightlifters in the world seven
years of study i think that's stunning and then
They're all right there. I wrote some names down
there. Yeah, let's go there. Let's go there.
Tell me your favorite weightlifters and why they
are your favorite. Olivia Reeves, just unbelievable
for so many six from six. So she's just, she's
the best, probably the best female weightlifter,
I think, in the time that I've been involved
in the sport. And she just does a little smile,
skips off the plaque. She's just done something.
And I actually now. One of the great things that
I enjoy now is that the people from North Korea
actually speak to me and privately and very occasionally
for publication. So do you speak in English?
One of them does. He also, he was very honest
about Olivia Reeves. He said that, you know,
they wanted to take her on at the world championships.
She went to a different weight category. The
person, the athlete that would have competed
against her, Song Kook -hyun, was it, I think.
She broke world record. But even then, he says,
still, I'm not sure. we would have beaten Olivia
Reeves. Well, who would? Who did recently? You
know, she's outstanding. Then Maude Charon, Aydlin
Diaz, Solfrid from Norway, qualified electrician
who becomes an Olympic champion. I think that's
fantastic. Emily Campbell in Britain also. What
you were saying about women's bodies and image,
she's great in promoting women's weightlifting.
And then further back, Denway. And I really love
Ri Song -geum, the one from North Korea now,
48 kilos. She's just phenomenal. So, and of the
younger ones, I think, Jarlok Simono from Canada.
She's also going to be very good. But then there
are so many. Look at how many they produced.
The new one who changed from Colombia to... ingrid
vanessa segura she is still a junior and she's
going to be very very good also i love watching
young ones who you just know they're going to
be good so going to youth world championships
and junior world championships sometimes in one
or two years it might be better than going to
the senior world championships because you see
people and you think wow that's very impressive
and you see countries as well that are changing
for example india okay nobody's heard of many
of their lesser or younger athletes at the moment,
but they're really, they're almost doing like
China. They're putting a lot of money in. They're
doing a lot of talent ID. They're getting kids
aged 10, 11, 12. They've already got loads aged
16, 17, 18 because they want to bid for the Olympic
Games in 2036. And it's impressive. They're doing
really well. Of the men, I shouldn't forget the
men. My favourite weightlifter of all time is
probably Precious McKenzie, who most people have
never heard of, who didn't ever win at the Olympics.
games but he was the first person in any sport
to win four gold medals at the commonwealth games
and he became quite a friend of the queen in
england and the royal family and uh when he was
a an infant his mother was an alcoholic his dad
got killed by a crocodile he fell in a cesspit
and nearly drowned in human excrement and then
he was a victim of extreme racism of apartheid
in south africa he escaped went to britain and
he fought for 10 and he's just a fantastic man
there should have been a film about him he's
amazing of the More recent ones, obviously, Lasha,
Sara Maradi, Lu Xiaojun, et cetera, et cetera,
and Karas Nassar now. The most uplifting thing
lately, one of the best stories since I've been
doing this was meeting John Mao from Germany
in Norway and hearing about his experiences because
he was returning after two and a half, three
years away because he had cancer and he had six
months of chemo. And he had Hodgkin's lymphoma.
He could have died. And he would recover from
that. And there he was at the World Championships.
And he's back in business, which is just fantastic.
It comes across that you think that athletes
should be put first, which I actually agree with.
How do you think it could be done? Well, the
people on the IWF board need to be more open
to what athletes think. And they're there. They
have a... presence, but I'm not sure they do.
And the way in which they would make the biggest
difference in my view is to do with the rules.
So this happened in Norway as well. You could
see it. There was one athlete from North Korea
who was, who lost the world record, won the gold
anyway, on deliberate oscillation. And there
was a lot of controversy, a lot of talk about
that. Well, and I know also that Carlos Nassar
was told before he lifted that if you do it again.
you'll get a no lift because he does it. And
I think that's perfectly fair. Oscillation is
a deliberate attempt to gain an advantage. So
you shouldn't do it. But all this bending and
extending, it's not deliberate. If you're lifting
100 or 200 kilos up above your head and your
arms make minute movements involuntarily, which
they do, you're not seeking to gain an advantage.
And I think they should change the rules. I don't
know exactly how. There are people who know a
lot more about this than I do. But bending it
and extending or the press out rule. is it causes
a lot of trouble. It really does. And this is
what Antonio Erso was talking about. He's now
left. But in 2022 and 2023, you've got to simplify
the rules. And the one thing that would change
is if you could have, I don't know if you could
just write it into the rules or just have it
as an attitude, is to give the athlete the benefit
of the doubt, which never happens. The rule book
gets the benefit of the doubt every time. And
when there's some, it's just a tiny little movement.
nobody's tried to cheat nobody's tried to gain
anything and yet it's a no lift and all this
has come to light really since video replays
all sports rules were invented by humans for
humans with human eyesight but no you've got
more than human eyesight and philosophically
i think that's questionable if you have a replay
play it at normal speed because that's what the
human eye sees that's what the audience sees
giving the athletes the benefit of the doubt
in rules would make a big difference but also
little things like the weigh -in and just organizational
balls -ups like in the in the african championships
about three years ago they had a platform that
was moving all over the place it was just terrible
dangerous at the islamic solidarity games which
have just finished in riyadh they had only four
indoor platforms in the The training, the others
had to go outdoors as well. Why? And then the
uniform allowance, that was a big unnecessary
row. Common sense, they could have sorted that
out straight away. Then again, with the weigh
-in, you get complaints from referees as well
as athletes. You've got to go to the competition
venue two hours before the first session for
your weigh -in. Suppose the first session's at
nine o 'clock. You've got to be there at 7am.
Why can't you have the weigh -in in the hotel
where the athletes are staying? And if there
are three hotels, have it in three or just have
it in the one with the most athletes. And then
you haven't got to do all this traveling. And
then there are other things. So, for example,
there is a super heavyweight from Pakistan who
allied himself with somebody in the federation
against the wishes of the president of the federation.
And for political reasons, he got dropped. He
won the gold medal at the Commonwealth Games.
He was a potential, you know, world championships
top 10 or something. They just kicked him out
for political reasons. I think instances like
that, again, give the athlete the benefit of
the doubt. Somebody should be able to step in
and do something about that, especially the Athletes'
Commission. Another example, there's a woman,
Maddy Ndake, who now competes for Britain, who
was competing for Cameroon. She won a bronze
medal at the Olympic Games in London 2012 on
a disqualification for doping. She's never got
her medal because she was over here when it was
sent to Cameroon. Where is it? The president
of the Cameroon Federation is on the IWF board.
Can't he just deliver this medal? No. Well, again,
the Athletes' Commission for something like that
should just immediately get involved and get
her medal. And that sort of thing doesn't happen.
And also, Athletes' Commissions, which are fantastic,
they can become as political. as other commissions
and committees and the executive board and so
on, and that's not a good thing. I think it happened
recently in Europe. Often, again, be too negative
because it's good, and you can't say every athlete
going to be a contributor to a change is going
to have good opinions, well expressed. But overall,
there's still a long way to go to get athletes,
and to some extent coaches involved more in certain
decisions, particularly about rules. I think
traditionally that was how it was. there was
a decision about the rules changes or weight
class changes for that matter and everyone else
had to scramble to adjust and even for the between
you know right before Tokyo 2018 change of weight
classes and from there there was three other
weight classes recent one just two weeks ago
for athletes who are developing weightlifting
is not a sport that you train for six weeks you
need years to prepare for Olympic So for worlds,
for meddling at the senior elite events, if you
changed weight classes frequently. It's very
hard for the athletes to aim at optimal development
for where they want to go because it changes
so quickly. And no one is asking athletes what
they think about it. And if athletes are voicing,
then no one is listening. Well, that's not actually
true because they do. They can't ratify those
weight classes until the Athletes' Commission
approves them. But that's at the end of the process.
not the beginning there will be some athlete
involvement but there's nowhere near enough widespread
consultation on weight classes qualifying programs
etc i don't think data analysis is something
that's particularly hot at the top of the iwf
so but if you had a lot of input from scientists
on really basic things like average body weight
and physique in different countries and different
continents and what's a safe percentage to increase
from one body weight category to the next body
weight category and so on and so on one of the
athletes in this most recent decision about weight
categories for los angeles from germany had carried
out some investigations. And she kept trying
to contact the Athletes' Commission, but then
she couldn't reply. But she did in the end, and
everything she said made sense. You've just got
to go more with science, and you've got to have
more consultation. But it isn't even just science
and physique and the human body. It's also important
for broadcasters, for people that pay the money
to the sport. It's important to all sorts of
stakeholders. And I don't know if that really...
happens that you know everybody has a say but
certainly even if not everyone is able to take
part in decision if it is done in visible way
that people have time to adjust and speak up
and good points are brought up then wouldn't
it make the decision better wouldn't it make
it more informed and better for i guess as always
it will involve some politics and so on but i
think it could be a little bit better. Yeah,
for sure. When you think about weightlifting
as a whole, this must be one of the top three
most important things in the sport. And yet he's
decided by a committee who then put their findings
to the board and then they ratify it. It is,
as you say, it's all a bit close. Okay, there
are lots of things that happened. You know, their
technical regulations, which hotel you're going
to stay at, how big your logo can be in your
uniform, whatever. There are all sorts of regulatory
decisions that don't need to be out in the public.
But when it comes to this, it would be good if
it was more visible for sure. How to make it
better with the use of media? Well, that wouldn't
be easy because it's barely had any media presence
on a global scale. And all the time I've been
involved in it. So there will be people writing
seriously about weightlifting in China. And it
does get a lot of coverage in certain countries
like Iran, Armenia, whatever, and Colombia. Look
at USA Weightlifting. Fantastic organization,
done a great job. But how much mainstream media
coverage does it get for athletes? Not a lot.
And also inside the games where I worked was
taken over by who knows, Russians probably. And
they stopped covering weightlifting about just
over two years ago. They've just started again,
but they don't go to events. It's not really
credible. So therefore, you end up with what
you've got. You've got, as you've always had,
hook grip, all things gym. I have a lot of respect.
bet for them they do a good job they're important
they do promote the sport everybody knows them
then you've had weightlifting house come along
and this is all more this is all videos pretty
much that's what people want it's allies to selling
products which if that's what you need for their
presence then that's what you have and i'd say
definitely weightlifting house has taken the
video content you know the little documentaries
and so on to another level in the past year or
so which is good. But it is, as it's always going
to be now, all social media. And again, that's
good. Individuals can have their own big presence,
but there are drawbacks. Well, there has been
quite a discussion, including by the Athletes'
Commission, that too many weightlifters now are
more interested in filming themselves in training
and putting themselves on social media than they
are in winning competitions. But that's a subject
for discussion, I should think. But what I would
say is that social media media is good for the
sport obviously and a lot of good changes have
come since it and but the social media presence
a big social media presence doesn't equate to
talent and it doesn't equate to newsworthiness
and i do think sometimes that some particularly
young lifters don't really get a mention don't
get a look in on some of the platforms. For example,
when you're previewing a championship, some don't
get a mention and they're obviously going to
be medal contenders, but they don't have a big
social media presence, if any. And there was
a good example of that in Norway where the Egyptian
Abdo Yunus was, you know, the next big thing
in weightlifting, but he hadn't really won anything
yet and he didn't win anything in Norway except
bronze medal. And he is going to be very good,
but it's because of social media. presented in
that way. Because he was telling people, I'm
that good. Come on, become the world champion
first. And then I would say China and North Korea
are sort of still underplayed. I could name,
for example, Albert de los Santos from the Philippines.
He has a presence here and there. And he's exceptionally
good. Exceptionally good. But he's not really
talked about, for example, as a medal contender,
I think. He will be. And then in the United States,
Colby Ferguson and Aaron Williams get a lot of
airtime, if you like. Caden Cahoy. I would say
he's got a good chance of being top six in Los
Angeles, maybe a medal. I don't know. He doesn't
get much. I don't know how it all worked exactly.
And of course, it's all subjective anyway. The
presentation of the whole competition has to
be better. If Waitlisting House can present those
very good videos away from the platform, if you
like, in training, little interviews in... while
somebody's having a meal, whatever. You ought
to be able to jazz it up in the competition and
have a lot more competition content. But the
competitions aren't jazzed up. There's too much
dead time. There's often no crowd out there or
very small crowd. That's another point. going
off tangent but the difference between a competition
with a big crowd in and a competition with no
crowd in is immeasurable it really is when you've
got a lot of noise for an example in the 2023
European Championships in Yerevan in Armenia
It was nearly full or full all the time. There
were a thousand people couldn't get in for the
Super Heavyweights. 6 ,000 people in there a
lot of the time. It was fantastic. And also,
of course, any Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games
is full. All the tickets are sold. It was great.
And the presentation at the Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth
Games was fantastic with all the two people buzzing
around the audience, all the audience engagement.
They were interviewing ex -athletes, interviewing
people in the crowd. That was really exemplary.
the IWF leadership was there and they could see
how good it was but nothing really has happened
since then. So what I'm hearing is that you're
creating some storytelling which is very hard
to do in a very short social media format if
we think reels or shorts where you have 30 seconds
maybe to a minute and that's it. So it's very
hard to show the depth of the stories of the
athletes and coaches and teams and rivalries
between countries and between parties. athletes
in the weight class or whatever. It's hard. That
has been actually the abiding thing that I've
always talked about since I started doing this.
And very often with Antonin Urso was humanizing
the athletes because so many of them have a fantastic
story. There's a couple of athletes I know of
their background. They were taken off the streets.
They were orphans and they ended up being absolutely
fantastic world championship medalists. but either
a they don't want to talk about it or b their
federation doesn't want to talk about it and
c overriding all this it seems as if nobody in
the sport is aware of how good it would be for
the sport for them to tell their story and be
more human if you like and then this comes down
again in the presentation how much is the audience
told about an athlete during the competition
are either on screen or by the speaker. It's
difficult for the speaker. But a lot of information
could go on the screen. They can pick their favorite
song. They can talk about their dog or whatever.
It doesn't matter. They just could be humanized
in a way they're not. We have 10 minutes after
presentation before the first athlete. This could
be used to introduce others. The 10 minutes of
death, that is. That's just... We introduce the
technical officials and then nothing happens
for 10 minutes. I mean, it's just unbelievable.
People that are... There was a... Somebody...
He came in to work for the Norwegian Federation,
who's gone since. He was an international referee
in football and ice hockey. And he was almost,
he was, what's going on here? Couldn't believe
it. And then sometimes you go to a B group, there's
six athletes, there's eight referees, or numbers
of referees, deciding on a good lift or no lift.
And there are actually more officials than there
are athletes by a factor of a vote. three or
four it's just unbelievable it really is but
that was another thing why when you've got a
video have you got eight people deciding whether
it's a good lift or a no lift eight people it's
off the scale crazy let's finish on something
positive so what would be your message for coaches
and for lifters message from brian oliver keep
up the good work and try to get more of a say
in your sport and you're all fantastic all right
i have two questions to finish two short questions
the first one usually is what is your favorite
lift snatch or clean and jerk and you i know
that you are not a lifter yourself but you must
have your favorite lift well surely It's interesting
because for technique, the snatch, for strength,
clean and jerk. So it's two different things
in a way. But yeah, it's got to be the clean
and jerk because that's the killer lift where
you get the world record and the Olympic gold
medal. But I do like watching, for example, Lesman
Paradise. Fantastic. The last question is where
people can find you online if they want to follow
what you're doing. Well, mostly you go on the
Google search and find something from a few years
ago. But nowadays, the only place... where I
appear my reports appear regularly anyway is
competition reports on the IWF website so for
every youth junior and senior world championships
and the Olympic Games I'll be there hopefully
for Grand Prix's etc anything part of qualifying
for Los Angeles and also I do put other information
might not necessarily appear on the IWF website,
occasionally on the Reddit group. I don't know
if you know the Reddit group, but it's big. 270
,000 people, I think. Most of that is videos
of people doing lifts, but a little bit of it
is news. Awesome. Thank you so much, Brian. Pleasure
to meet you and talk to you today. Thanks.