From my experience, when we started teaching
the clean pull, the snatch pull, all the high
pull things, normally not weightlifters, it takes
two months to kind of familiar with all the patterns.
But a BMPJ, they can do pretty well in two weeks.
So yeah, I want to say this is better than the
pulling exercise. I'm a big lover of pulling
exercise. I'm a big lover of power clean, power
snatch. But I'm just saying this is an alternative
way. especially for those non -weightlifting
athletes. They are eager to see the effect of
those exercises. Hi, Mark. It's my pleasure to
have you on Evidence Strong Show. If you could
briefly introduce yourself. Hi, Alex. Thanks
for inviting me to your show. And I've been watching
your video and podcast for a while. And I think
this is very valuable information for people
who love in weightlifting. I didn't expect you
gonna send this invitation to me. So pleasure
is mine. And so let me introduce myself a little
bit. I'm currently working as an associate professor.
at the National Taiwan Sports University and
also at the, meanwhile, Taiwan Institute of Sports
Science just established two years ago. So I
am currently also the adjunct associate researcher
at the TISS as well. In terms of my background,
I earned my PhD in sports physiology and performance
back in 2014 at East Tennessee State University
under Professor Mike Stone. So ever since that,
I came back. Back to my hometown in Taiwan, the
home country, and started working as a volunteer
strength and conditioning coach. And the associate
position opened after six months. So I took the
position, did the research and teaching and coaching
at the same time until now. So your research
is in behind neck push jack. So why behind neck
push jack? Oh, yes. So if we look at the literature,
I think around the 10 years from the... 2014
most of the study especially the weightlifting
derivatives exercise focusing on the pulling
exercise and of course pulling is the the i would
say that the major exercise people would love
to use for developing power and developing the
weightlifting technique however me myself i am
not weightlifter although although i've been
studying and been doing the weightlifting exercise
so i always have have that thought, maybe we
can have some different types of derivatives.
So not until I think that 2020 -ish, there was
the paper published in Sports Medicine talking
about overhead derivatives. So I thought, why
not? And this might be the alternative because
for the jerk exercise, some people like traditionally
we have to jerk in from our neck. So how about
some athletes that are not? weightlifting athletes,
but they still want to have some transfer effect
from the relative exercise. How about the behind
neck? So I didn't do the study in the beginning.
I just try it and then try to implement on myself
and my athletes. And then turns out the effect,
the adaptation was surprising. So I started to
think maybe we need to do some research on this
type of exercise. So that was the story of behind
neck push jerk. All right. So today we'll be
talking about... Two studies you run or two papers
you have published on the same population of
people. So we'll go into that. But before we
do, we have to talk a little bit about the methods
of prescribing. Because if you want the Olympic
weightlifting derivative to be used for anything,
you will run into the problem how to load it,
how heavy it should be. So what are our options
and which one you chose and why? Okay, so before
we go to the procedure, I have... something to
add about a behind neck push jerk first of all
accepting the range of motion the mobility issue
of the shoulder this is very similar to what
we did for the back squat so first of all we
put a bar on our shoulder like upper trapezius
and then it's easier easily for most of athletes
to accelerate to have that acceleration feeling
from that position and then that way we can kind
of focus here on the concentric part of this
BMPJ exercise. And anecdotally, one of my former
master students, because this exercise, he increased
almost 12 centimeter of vertical jump. And then,
so if we really think about the pattern, like
dip before the drive, the thrust, the drive,
it's very similar to most of athletic movement,
like the strategy wise. And then, you know, the
velocity wise were very similar. So those two.
how to load it that was the first question i
had because once i have a group of athletes and
i will try to prescribe this exercise that was
very difficult because that that comes to that
comes to the question of should we use the one
rm base meaning we have to test all of them or
should we just use their body mass so that was
i think that was the question you when you look
at the paper that was the first question we got
so Scientifically, we use one iron base because
it's been validated and it's a very scientific
way to prescribe low. Yeah, so basically those
group of participants, they are familiar with
BMPJ. So I didn't use my athletes. It's because
I want to make sure like every one of our participants
knew and executed it very well. There's no technical
issue on doing this exercise. So we have two
separate. session so the first session was for
the one iron test so they came to the lab for
i did the warm -up and i did a warm -up for the
bmpj and then we're just trying to catch what's
the 80 to 90 percent of perceived effort weights
and i just run to make sure that they are familiar
they're comfortable with those weights and then
they test their one iron in five trials so every
time when they successfully lift We just add
about 2 .5 % until we test their 1RM BMPJ. So
that's their first session. For the second session,
that was a little bit tricky because we had to
decide either the 1RM base or the body mass base.
So say we had their 1RM weights already. So we
measure their weight on that day. So we try to
calculate the weights of 40, 50, 60, 70, and
80 % of their body. body mass weight and the
one arm base weight. Okay, so that was the two
separate tests they had to go through. So in
that case, we decided which one went first based
on the absolute weight. So say I have a like
big guy came in and body mass was like extremely
high. So we went the body mass section first.
And then a 1RN base second. So everyone had a
different order for either the 1RN or the body
mass. Sorry, Mark. Body weight -based loading
would be 80 % or their actual body weight? That
would be the loading? Yes. So 40, 50, 60, 70,
and 80 for their body weight. But also the 40,
50, 60, 70, 80 from their 1RN we test, yeah,
at least 48 hours prior to the testing session.
Yeah. So they had to do three consecutive BMPJ
successfully. So meaning we had video recording,
myself and my students who certify as a professional
person supervised the session. So every time
they successfully finish one intensity, they
rest five minutes before they start the next
intensity. Say after the 80%, either the one
arm base or the body weight base, they had...
15 minutes rest between the session. Just make
sure they did not like fatigue too much to go
through the second session. Meanwhile, they test
those exercise on the two sets of Kistler force
play. So we collect the force time data. We analyze
the kinetic and kinematic data afterwards. We
recruit totally 16 participants who were not
weightlifters specifically. The reason for that
is we try to create. ecological validity so after
this study i can use this information for general
population either or you know the athletic population
the average one rm bmpj was about 1 .2 of their
own body weight so i wasn't uh that wasn't very
good but that wasn't bad yeah so that was my
participants so definitely not beginners and
behind neck push jack but maybe not at the elite
weightlifter level yeah Were they only males?
Yeah, only the males. We analyzed the peak force,
the mean force, peak power, mean power, impulse,
and also system mass velocity, but also their
propulsive time. And then, yeah, so those are
the kinetic and kinematic data we analyzed. Basically,
I would say like simply the one RM base from
each intensity were greater from kinetic. perspective
superior than the body mass method however for
kinematic data there wasn't different between
the body mass and the one arm base method yes
that was kind of surprising because people always
thought this is not right especially when we
submit our paper and every reviewer say this
does not make any sense because based on the
velocity based concept when you're using heavier
low barbell velocity is gonna drop however we
specifically point out we did not measure barbell
velocity we're using the center of mass velocity
also called the system velocity to measure the
reason for that is because we're trying to rule
out some factors that will influence the barbell
velocity and then so we use the system velocity
instead yeah and then we found there wasn't no
difference between two methods but there were
there wasn't difference between between different
intensity as well. That was kind of interesting.
And then, yeah, that was basically what we found.
Okay, I have two questions. One is why, and the
other is what does it mean for the coach? Okay,
you mean why the kinematic didn't change? Yeah.
When we did the heavy load, for example, like
70 and 80, we got the most effect from force
and power. And because that was because the external
loading. trying to overcome the external loading.
However, from the strategy perspective, when
we use the heavy load, we tend to dip a little
bit more in order to have that concentric time.
So in our paper, we didn't mention the eccentric
portion. However, we observed, we didn't analyze
like in detail, but we observed. And this is
very typical, even for weightlifters. Like you
can tell like when the heavy load, they have
that. Like Katamai said, oh, I know this is the
dip, but it's not a normal dip when we use the
lighter load. And so they dip a little bit longer
in order to have the bigger impulse when they
do the purposive phase. Yeah, so we only measure
the purposive phase and then we calculate the
system velocity. I think that was one of the
reasons why the system velocity didn't change
that much and it didn't have the statistical
significance across different intensities. That's
very interesting. Yeah. So what was your second
question? How coaches should understand it? Good
question. Because I think I can answer that from
two different perspectives. First, if we want
to have the most out of it from this exercise,
which are strength and power production, we definitely
go heavy alone. Because in this exercise, we
didn't have a lot of constraints from the technical
itself. We just go the upright position, go all
the way through. is not the issue and then we
get uh the most of the strength and then power
and impulse from heavier intensity so 70 to 80
percent was were the intensity i would definitely
recommend it even we didn't test the weightlifter
but i guess that would be very similar however
if we from look at this from the practical perspective.
It also can use the kinematic data we analyze
to apply for those people or for those population.
For example, like a novice, they just started
to learn this exercise and we didn't want them
to use a heavy load. And then they still can
keep that relatively similar velocity, especially
their system velocity. And that was a good thing
because we didn't want them to lose that, you
know, pulsive motion. We want them to exert the
force as fast as possible. But if they had the
limitation from the force and power production,
we still have the speed aspect from this exercise.
So I think it all depends on what your population,
who you're training, and what's your purpose.
And then we can take that information from these
two perspectives. Okay, so now you tested two
methods, loading according to the body weight
and loading according... to 1RM, how would you
distinguish which method you should use as a
coach and for whom? Yeah, so if I am a weightlifting
coach, I would definitely go to 1RM because the
reason is simple. We want to precisely prescribe
our load. And then we can do that individually
and regularly because this is part of the training
process. Yeah, so the 1RM best will be something
I would definitely recommend for a weightlifting
coach. Maybe we can do some... study on the weightlifting
population later on. However, if I'm working
like me, I work with a group of athletes for
30, sometimes like 50. Our Taekwondo athletes,
they have like 50 people in one team. It's barely
possible to test their 1RN. And then some of
them, they are new, we say they're novice to
this type of exercise. In that case, the body
mass method may be very... handy so when i prescribe
low this is very handy and then we can go from
there because i know the purpose for this exercise
is trying to create the biomechanical similarities
instead of like absolute force and power and
then when i train them for one or two years and
then they're familiar with every execution of
this exercise and then the strength and power
will become like more and more important i can
start to test their one rn so that's the point
from my view. Awesome. Should we talk a little
bit more on the second study and about the kinematics
and kinetics of a power jack in general? The
reason we further analyzed and created the second
study was from the practical perspective, right?
People want to know like what intensity should
I use if I want to get the most of strength and
power even in the impulse. So we compare different
intensity all the way. from 40 to 80 % of their
1RN BMPJ weight. And some of the reviewers asked
me the question, why you didn't go higher, say
90 % or 95%. And the answer of mine was impractical
setting. We did not often do one rep. So for
example, for this exercise, they may do like
two rep or three rep. That's why I created it
as like three repetition instead of one. And
consider they were not. weightlifters. So I didn't
go above 80%. So that was the limitation of this
study. However, when we compare all the way from
the 40 to 80 % of the intensity, the heavier
they were, the weight, the higher of their force,
impulse, and power. So in other words, if you
want to get the most of the training effect,
the heavier weight was the better. And then kinematically,
that was surprising because they didn't change
a lot. lot they decrease a little bit just we
just mentioned they may change their strategy
from but from that concentric portion of their
center of mass velocity that didn't change a
lot so it gave us a very important information
which we already know you have to generate the
force and power no matter what intensity you
are using currently yeah so even we change our
strategy for the deep portion we still can get
a very good velocity during that concentric portion
so i think that's the most important information
from the study too so the application from the
study it was the pros and cons right if someone
like me they are trying to work with athletes
and then trying to get that triple extension
strategy and explosive strength and power, I
would recommend BMPJ. Because like from my experience,
when we started teaching the clean pull, the
snatch pull, all the high pull things, normally
non -weightlifters, it takes two months to kind
of familiar with all the patterns. But BMPJ,
they can do pretty well in two weeks. So yeah,
I want to say... This is better than the pulling
exercise. I'm a big lover of pulling exercise.
I'm a big lover of power clean, power snatch.
But I'm just saying this is an alternative way.
And especially for, you know... Those non -weightlifting
athletes, they are eager to see the effect of
those exercises. That might be the alternative
way to let them feel. So just get back to the
beginning of our talk, our conversation, why
I started to look at the BMPJ. That was because
some of my athletes, they just jump higher and
higher and higher. And I didn't expect that because
that was the stage I was trying to teach them
the pulling technique. And then you didn't see.
that like very often right you assume they have
that stable technique for a while and then they
start to see like they start to increase all
the jumps all the sprinting performance but the
pnpj just i think that's different way to make
people understand how to accelerate our body
you mentioned that behind neck push jack was
very effective in improving jumping specifically
the height of the jump would it be more transferable
also to improve upper body thanks your question
this is a very important part of uh using bmpj
just for clear when i say they jump higher that
was anecdotally because uh in science we believe
evidence right so i should do some training intervention
study to see like how how good they were like
how higher they improved from beginning to the
end however in terms of the upper body we have
a lot of athletes they have to do the overhead
pattern say volleyball player and then in Asia,
we, the baseball is a big population. Yeah. And
then swimming as well, even though they're in
water, but they still do like overhead. And one
of the thing I found for the BMPJ was when you
try to catch the bar, it's not only your lower
body try to stop yourself, but upper body when
they coaching in, we say lock out the elbow and
your shoulder blade. And then that creates the
stability of your upper body. upper body region
and then since it is a jerk exercise it's not
pressing exercise so i would say for the maximize
the upper body strength might be questionable
but that sudden stop or that kind of stability
effect i would say that will help athlete to
understand when they do the overhead where their
shoulder blade where their elbow should be and
then in order to transfer that force from the
you know from the trunk to their arm and of course
this is also anecdotally yeah so from around
now i can collect data if i have enough resources
for the motion analysis system combine that with
the force plate to see if there is a training
effect for those type of overhead athletes so
this is the experience from one of our very famous
picture and he told me he shared this with me
like after a couple weeks he failed more stable
to control the baseball when they release. If
we think about that, when they do the overhead,
they have to go through this position and then
release the ball in front of their body. So if
they can have like a more stable position in
here, the chances are they're probably more stable
when they release the ball. Yeah, so that's also
the other intriguing aspect from the PMPJ. And
hopefully I can do more study on this exercise.
Just a note. I just released the interview with
Emilie Neff, who is using Olympic weightlifting
derivatives to train female, adolescent female
athletes. And as you may know, and coaches will
know, the adolescent females have flow and males
too, have lots of issues with coordination. The
body is changing, the hormones are raging and
so on. So she finds Olympic weightlifting very
effective because she argues this is a skill.
based sports so it requires not only the physical
adaptation but also the neural component to adjust
all the balance stabilization coordination of
all the muscles that is very challenged with
olympic weightlifting and therefore is adapting
which we want in sports yes since you mentioned
can i share something of my experience on this
when we start to teach those pulling exercise
one of the difficulty for athletes to understand
is the power position So they don't understand
why you need to accelerate after the bar passed
your knee and then the high speed happened after
the power position. But if they do the BMPJ,
they know exactly how to thrust themselves. And
I would argue that's the coordination. Like you
need to do something right in order to execute
the exercise. So if I teach BMPJ first, first
of all, they don't have the shoulder issue because
for some athletes, it's very hard to get them
to catch the bar. overhead under that situation
under that stress but if they don't have the
shoulder issues they learn how to get the right
timing to thrust themselves and they catch the
ball it easier to teach them to do the pulling
exercise because they know okay this is the feeling
yeah so since you brought that up the i think
the coordination is also the thing and a neural
issue is also the thing and there's a lot of
benefits from those weightlifting exercise even
for their overhead the rep exercise just to finish
two main questions the first one is what is your
favorite lift what is my favorite lift yeah that's
that's a difficult question for weightlifter
lovers right yeah you have to like answer carefully
and then for me for me yeah pulling exercise
yeah because the limitation for bmpj is the intensity
because for novice athletes i can teach them
the feeling of the thrust but the intensity wise
i need to be very careful pulling you don't have
that consideration i can use the strap i can
i don't have to pull that high just like you
said but you still get that adaptation from the
pulling exercise so i would say that that's why
i mentioned bmpj is a good tool but it's only
good when they have the adequate strength level
to using the heavier load to get the max amount
of the strength and power adaptation from the
bmpj so i'll say still pulling exercise my favorite
also and the last question is where people can
find you if they want to follow your work and
get all the research yeah so if they want to
know more about asian training or industry they
can follow me on the instagram my instagram account
is ntsu sports performance team so i use uh my
school's group to create an account so those
are you know when people want to know like how
you asian people do strength and conditioning,
they can find this information over there. But
if they want to know my research, they can go
to ResearchGate, type my Chinese name, C -H -I
-E -H -Y -I -N -G. My last name is C -H -I -A
-N -G. Yeah, so that's my ResearchGate account.
So I put all my research on my ResearchGate,
yes. Thank you so much, Mark. It was a pleasure.
Pleasure's mine. Thank you, Alex.