1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,200 Hello listeners, welcome to the Culture and Climate Nexus. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:12,000 This episode explores the contemporary Egyptian Nubian experience with climate change and 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,840 how it influenced our cultural life and social dynamics. 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,880 Their story tells the tale of adaptation, resilience, and the intricate dance between 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,920 human cultures and their environments. 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,920 My name is Misimi Owolabi and I'm this podcast's host. 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,720 Imagine standing on the banks of the Nile River where the water shimmers under the blazing 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,920 sun and the land stretches far beyond the eyes. 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,600 Here you can feel the weight of history and life that's flowed for thousands of years. 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,520 This is the home of the Egyptian Nubians. 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,000 The Egyptian Nubians are renowned for their cultural heritage, social structures, and 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,680 their deep ties to the Nile River. 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,600 Unfortunately, in recent years, the effects of climate change has posed significant challenges 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,960 to their livelihoods and traditions. 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,600 Their experience contains adaptations and resilience as they strive to preserve their 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,000 cultural identity and sustain their way of life. 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,040 I am thrilled to introduce the guests for this podcast. 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,960 A historian who has done research in Africa, including Ethiopia, Southern Africa, Senegal, 19 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:17,480 and Ghana. 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,280 He participated in many local community projects focusing on how these communities have adjusted 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,960 to their natural environment and how they approach their challenges. 22 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:28,520 Please welcome Professor James McCann. 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,440 Hello Professor McCann and welcome as guests on the Climate and Culture Nexus. 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:39,120 I emailed Professor McCann after a history teacher recommended him to me and looked over 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:46,000 his works, including the Greenland, Brownland, Blackland, and Environmental History of Africa. 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,120 During his research, he has physically seen how people have adapted to their surroundings 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,080 and how migration and trade have shaped their communities. 28 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:01,280 He also has seen how the very landscapes result in diverse interpretations of the natural 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,120 world and responses to climate change. 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:10,880 So this podcast will first focus on the Egyptian-Nubians' historic context and the change he has 31 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:11,880 observed. 32 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,600 We will then examine the importance of the Nile River, specifically its cultural importance, 33 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,960 and we will dive into how colonialism and environmental changes affect the Nile and 34 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,120 Nile role, availability of water in the region. 35 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:31,080 We will then discuss how gender dynamics have been ultra-effective as well as occupational 36 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,080 dynamics. 37 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,280 We will then look at the Egyptian-Newbians' identities and how it evolved to do climate 38 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,200 change in terms of culture, occupation, and class. 39 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,280 We will then discuss how Egyptian-Newbians perceive climate change in their local adaptation 40 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:45,280 efforts. 41 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,480 Professor McCann will first talk a little about himself. 42 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:56,040 I have been interested in African studies, I am a historian, I am a historian of the 43 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,720 way people live their lives over time. 44 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:07,360 The variety of places I have been to do work in Africa takes me to the various places in 45 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,920 Ethiopia, which is so incredibly diverse. 46 00:03:09,920 --> 00:03:16,000 But also in Southern Africa, where I have participated in projects in local communities, 47 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,560 why do they grow certain crops, how do they adjust to changing their national environment, 48 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:26,640 including things like the European-Expressive-Nitrogen Climate, and then how do these climates 49 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:32,600 interact with the way people live their lives and approach to challenges they face, of course, 50 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:33,600 to men's challenges. 51 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:40,360 I have also worked in West Africa, in Senegal, in Ghana, part of the both sides of the U, 52 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,000 that there is a chapter in the Bidderville and Caledon, and Ghana is a very different 53 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,000 setting for how people organize their economic lives. 54 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:57,680 I am also the book and deed of a conference in Finland on Afragots, the panels on Africa, 55 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:03,880 and arguing that connection or environmental history and environmental issues is often 56 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,760 connected very much to the humanities. 57 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,200 Other people express their feelings about their world. 58 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:15,360 What that has to do with painting, poetry, and literature, and language, all those things 59 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,880 reflect the way people think about their lives and the environments part of that. 60 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:24,960 And I always argue that it's those factors of humanities, how people express themselves 61 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,720 that really let others understand more fully what's likely to be the outcome of the terms 62 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:35,480 of the way they speak, and reflect their natural world, the environment, including climate. 63 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,000 As you can see, Professor McCann has a rich engagement with African studies. 64 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:46,320 He explores the interplay between environmental factors, cultural dynamics, human experiences, 65 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,400 and the diverse spherics in these regions. 66 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,560 So what differences have you observed, Professor McCann? 67 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:59,920 If it's one of the points that I would like to see is that the idea of Africa being one 68 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:06,160 place, Africa has been a different environment for its ecologies, and those are reflected 69 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:11,160 in the genocidal cultures of where do you find yourself, where people find themselves, 70 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,400 how they trade with how they roll with the world of the kingdom and the world of the 71 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,400 kingdom and the world of the kingdom. 72 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,880 And these are many, many different examples. 73 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:24,520 Africa is not one physical place, but there's so many varieties of people that interpret 74 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,720 and live in their natural world. 75 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,880 And how the adjavas took climate change is part of that. 76 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,840 Piki for pointing that out, Professor McCann, is essential to be aware that Africa has 54 77 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:40,320 countries and multiple cultures and heritages within each one. 78 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:45,320 A unique feature of Egypt that is very important to Egyptian Nubian is the Nile River. 79 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,000 As I discussed in the introduction episode of this podcast, the Carnegie Museum of Natural 80 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:56,280 History article outlines how the Nile is culturally significant because it provides 81 00:05:56,280 --> 00:06:01,760 water and salt, lay for agriculture, means of transportation and religious significance. 82 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:08,200 One of my major focus in my research is the Kermai Kroeg project, it's about the Nile. 83 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:15,960 And of course the Nile begins in Ethiopia, and come 84% of the water that reaches Cairo 84 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,760 comes out of Ethiopia, doesn't come out of East Africa. 85 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:24,040 Now there's many people who misunderstand that, in fact, let me show you. 86 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,840 How has it shaped the lives of the Egyptian Nubians or Ethiopians since that is what you 87 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:29,840 focus on? 88 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:37,080 Well, I think the adjavas culturally, the name for the Blue Nile, we have two Niles, 89 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,280 the Blue Nile and the White Nile. 90 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:43,680 The Blue Nile is the one that provides most of the water and it comes during the rainy 91 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:49,840 season in Ethiopia and then declines a little bit, but still is the major source of water 92 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:50,840 that reaches. 93 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:57,880 And it carries the soil with it, and so the name for the Blue Nile in Ethiopia is Abai. 94 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,840 This is a relationship to my father. 95 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:08,880 And it is a way of people relating to those waters of the Nile are symbolically very important 96 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,520 for ritual religious activities. 97 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:20,320 So for example, the very place where the Nile comes out of the ground, stood there on the 98 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:28,040 very spring, and that's where there were ritual sacrifices of animals to create the 99 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,560 profiteous relationships with the deity. 100 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,200 So it's a predominantly Christian area. 101 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:41,760 So they are recognizing the importance of water as something that gives holiness, that 102 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:48,120 gives humanity to humans who derive their livelihood from it. 103 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:53,320 And so that my work has been in the physical, the actual place where the Nile emerges from 104 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,240 the ground. 105 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:03,400 Symbolically the travelers who have come over the many, many centuries to that place 106 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:12,120 include Portuguese, Scots, English, of course many of the different Ethiopians people who 107 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,080 know that place. 108 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,200 They recognize that that place is symbolic. 109 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:17,280 The water, of course, is a small amount of the 110 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:27,160 symbolic of what makes them human, what makes them have a relationship to their deity. 111 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,680 That is a major part of the meaning of the water, not just the physical water, but the 112 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,320 symbolic meaning of the water is important. 113 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,560 And as you move down the Nile from the into Sudan, the same kind of effects of people 114 00:08:39,560 --> 00:08:45,600 recognize this as the heartbeat of their economic and social culture. 115 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:52,040 And going into Egypt, even though legends change, people change, and Nubians are different 116 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,040 as people in the Tharo. 117 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:59,720 Nubians are different than most of the people of Sudan who live along the banks of the Nile. 118 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:05,720 Nonetheless, they all have some kind of meanings that water, in their life or religion, of 119 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,160 poetry, of representation of what does water mean, the meanings of the water. 120 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:17,080 After highlighting the deep cultural and symbolic significance of the Nile, more specifically, 121 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:22,760 the Blue Nile branch, which shows how important a water is to people in Ethiopia and the Egyptian 122 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,880 Nubians. 123 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,080 It really is not just about the physical water. 124 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:35,120 It's culturally significant because of how it connects to history, tradition, and spirituality. 125 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,840 It shapes the way of life for many people and even connects various cultures along the 126 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,320 banks. 127 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,080 What other impacts and effects has climate change had on the Egyptian Nubians? 128 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:53,280 Well, it's the connection, the water flowing from East Africa, both from the White Nile 129 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:59,920 and the Blue Nile, coming into what's within Nubia. 130 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:05,480 That has always been connected by, for example, the Oxamide Empire in Ethiopia controlled at 131 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:12,360 one point that part of southern Egypt in the Nubia area. 132 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:18,000 Just as the Egyptian civilization, of course, was a major, major part of the world culture, 133 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:23,320 and they were always deriving, they understood that the Nile was the source of things that 134 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:24,560 are livelihoods. 135 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:30,360 The whole being came from the Nile because beyond the banks of the Nile, Egypt and northern 136 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Sudan, our very, their life comes from the water. 137 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:41,800 What particularly strikes me is how these relate heavily to the global challenges today, such 138 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,120 as climate change. 139 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:49,520 Unfortunately, these events make water more scarce for some groups due to the drought. 140 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,520 These societies allow us to reflect on the understanding of water resource management. 141 00:10:54,520 --> 00:11:04,280 So, for, if we take southern Egypt, it's very much organized around the presence of water 142 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:10,560 that's been managed by local populations for how do you cultivate crops, which crops 143 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:16,520 do you cultivate, how do you manage to relate your political system to the fact that the 144 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:21,600 Nile is something that changes over time, will go long term, but also changes year to 145 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:22,600 year. 146 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:29,980 Seasonality, if you're able to look at section, I strangle you, that chapter, it's about 147 00:11:29,980 --> 00:11:35,480 seasons, it's about changes over time in the amount of water available, what's to 148 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,040 be available through rainfall, or through the movement of the river. 149 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,540 Basically, it doesn't bring in Cairo. 150 00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:47,340 Cairo depends only primarily on the movement of the water from the Ethiopian islands from 151 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:54,740 East Africa into Egypt and eventually into the Mediterranean, although the water now 152 00:11:54,740 --> 00:11:59,000 in these days does not really ever reach the Mediterranean. 153 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,740 So the water is a critical issue for Egypt, it's just having tough times now. 154 00:12:03,740 --> 00:12:10,980 The effects of it right now, the immigration and of how do you negotiate to make sure that 155 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:17,740 your economy is actually access to the water that's the foundation of the digital economy. 156 00:12:17,740 --> 00:12:21,540 I want to note that climate change has also had other cultural effects on the Egyptian 157 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:23,100 Nubians. 158 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:27,020 Some of these include displacement of the Egyptian Nubians through the rising sea levels 159 00:12:27,020 --> 00:12:33,460 or changes in rainfall patterns, due to climate change, highlighted by ammonia recede. 160 00:12:33,460 --> 00:12:39,860 In the frontline article, The Angel of the Nile are Dying, the author discusses how there 161 00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:42,740 is displacement due to climate change. 162 00:12:42,740 --> 00:12:48,180 The article highlights how hardships exacerbated by issues such as colonialism and poverty 163 00:12:48,180 --> 00:12:52,020 have made life much more difficult for the Egyptian Nubians. 164 00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:57,220 These factors include agriculture, water scarcity, and extreme weather. 165 00:12:57,220 --> 00:13:01,940 Speaking of colonialism, how does that affect the Egyptian Nubians and exacerbate the climate 166 00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:03,940 crisis there? 167 00:13:03,940 --> 00:13:12,900 Well, Europeans were always concerned about the Nile as a place that, because Egypt was 168 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:18,700 geographically really important for a long, long period of time, when Napoleon was there, 169 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:24,860 the British eventually were competing with the French. 170 00:13:24,860 --> 00:13:30,620 There were different kind of accommodations that Egypt made to become an event in the 171 00:13:30,620 --> 00:13:36,260 time dominium that they jointly ruled with the local Egyptian government and the British 172 00:13:36,260 --> 00:13:41,020 were the ones on top of that situation, because the British cared very much about how they 173 00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:46,460 would keep access to the water, because that was the heartbeat of such a geographically 174 00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:49,700 important area, which we know is Egypt. 175 00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:55,180 So colonialism, Egypt has a different kind of colonial history than other parts of Africa. 176 00:13:55,180 --> 00:14:03,420 Sudan was also part of Egypt, if you had to say itself, historically into Sudan to control 177 00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:07,460 the water and also to control the population. 178 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:13,180 The relationships between Egypt, especially southern Egypt, but also in Sudan, had to 179 00:14:13,180 --> 00:14:20,380 do with access to the water, but also the importation of people in the form of those 180 00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:28,460 people, here the slaves out of Sudan into Egypt and also into the Mediterranean world. 181 00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:34,260 And that was part of that colonial heritage of Egypt, which the complicated complicating 182 00:14:34,260 --> 00:14:39,620 compared to the rest of Africa were not direct control with the French, with the Italians, 183 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:40,620 with the British. 184 00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:48,220 Egypt had a condominium relationship where local leadership derives from the Mediterranean 185 00:14:48,220 --> 00:14:55,700 world, Mahalili, not the boxer, but for Bahmali, the ruler, he was a Mamluk. 186 00:14:55,700 --> 00:15:02,860 A Mamluk is the one who had descended from slaves in the court in Egypt, and he's the 187 00:15:02,860 --> 00:15:10,740 one who expanded the Egyptian influence over Manuvia and into East Africa, when Egypt was 188 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:12,900 fundamentally an important player in that world. 189 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:19,100 We're then also involved in fending itself into both the coastline of Ethiopia, the Red 190 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:22,300 Sea, and into Sudan. 191 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:24,540 So it's a complicated colonial situation. 192 00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:29,740 It was eventually the British dominated by the time of the 20th century, and the British 193 00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:31,980 were the key force there. 194 00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:38,220 And then Egyptian nationalism came to play as they fought against the British of the 195 00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:43,820 show, but the Zambiaxer came into power, connected to the states in Egypt. 196 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:49,380 It's a complicated situation, but the East was part and parcel of that, both participating 197 00:15:49,380 --> 00:15:52,780 in and being subjected to effective colonization. 198 00:15:52,780 --> 00:16:00,180 Yeah, it's fascinating how colonial powers, such as the French and the British, but over 199 00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:03,540 Egypt's resources specifically acted to denial. 200 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:09,100 This demonstrates how colonialism often involved exploiting natural resources like water to 201 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:10,900 serve their own interests. 202 00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:15,700 In an interview I conducted with Andrew Smith, a researcher focusing on Native American 203 00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:21,300 populations in Arizona and Mexico, it was revealed that indigenous communities perceived 204 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:25,740 climate change as a manifestation of colonization. 205 00:16:25,740 --> 00:16:30,740 Smith's research further suggests that colonization exacerbates the impact of climate change on 206 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:32,180 these communities. 207 00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:37,620 By disrupting their traditional ways of life, colonization left indigenous communities vulnerable 208 00:16:37,620 --> 00:16:40,500 to climate change environmental degradation. 209 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:44,220 This concept could also shed light on the impact of colonization and climate change 210 00:16:44,220 --> 00:16:46,740 on marginalized populations worldwide. 211 00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:51,380 The Nubian people have also faced historical displacement exploitation. 212 00:16:51,380 --> 00:16:56,140 Therefore, there may be some understanding of historical justice and struggle for cultural 213 00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:57,780 resilience there. 214 00:16:57,780 --> 00:17:02,300 While indigenous communities view climate change very negatively as an ongoing colonization, 215 00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:07,100 it is also important to illustrate these interconnected dynamics. 216 00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:10,380 An example of this is the Aswan dams. 217 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:15,980 For those unfamiliar with these two dams, the low dam, the first one, was created during 218 00:17:15,980 --> 00:17:19,580 the British colonial era in the Egyptian city of Aswan. 219 00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:23,860 The second took shape as the high dam in the 1960s. 220 00:17:23,860 --> 00:17:30,620 These dams generated electricity for hydropower, flood, control, and irrigation in bar supply 221 00:17:30,620 --> 00:17:31,620 management. 222 00:17:31,620 --> 00:17:39,780 However, according to an article, how Egypt's Aswan dam washed away Nubian heritage, one 223 00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:45,540 of the most significant consequences of the high dam specifically was the displacement 224 00:17:45,540 --> 00:17:50,420 of Egyptian Nubians peoples who inhabited the Nile Valley. 225 00:17:50,420 --> 00:17:55,580 The construction of dams like the Aswan high dam intended to initially address water management 226 00:17:55,580 --> 00:17:59,420 challenges in a region where water fluctuates significantly. 227 00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:05,300 However, climate change intensifies the challenges causing these dams' disruptions to worsen. 228 00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:11,580 Ken Yeo, Professor McCann, explained more about how these events surrounding the Aswan 229 00:18:11,580 --> 00:18:15,420 dam influenced Egyptian Nubians' vulnerability to climate change. 230 00:18:15,420 --> 00:18:22,140 Well, climate change is, as the map I first sent you, can you get that? 231 00:18:22,140 --> 00:18:23,140 Yes. 232 00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:28,820 If you look at that map, I took map that predicts rainfall availability, water availability 233 00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:32,140 for Africa as we look into the future. 234 00:18:32,140 --> 00:18:39,180 And the two places you see that have the brown markings are the, one is the Zamezi and the 235 00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:44,420 other one is, this is where the water comes from, because it gets to Egypt. 236 00:18:44,420 --> 00:18:51,420 And so the prediction from those, you do in projections is that water is going to be a 237 00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:56,860 very, very key declining resource. 238 00:18:56,860 --> 00:19:01,700 So the expectations that you see of building your own dam that the Egyptians are not happy 239 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:10,020 about, but it's going to be, the water is going to be in very short, very scarce supply. 240 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:11,460 That's the big deal. 241 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:17,900 Water is a fundamental issue through all of these questions about political power, about 242 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:24,100 poor access to water to grow their crops, to be able to move to trade. 243 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:29,180 All of these things are in significance under significant threat by climate change. 244 00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:32,980 And the prediction, the best predictions we have is that it's going to be even more 245 00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:35,180 of a scarce resource. 246 00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:40,820 It's crucial to spotlight their critical intersection between climate change and political dynamics. 247 00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:46,940 The prediction of declining water availability in regions like Ethiopia and Egypt increases 248 00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:50,820 geopolitical tensions over water resources. 249 00:19:50,820 --> 00:19:56,020 Competition for water supplies sometimes causes alliances or conflicts to secure access to 250 00:19:56,020 --> 00:20:02,740 water for agriculture and industry, exacerbating existing power imbalances and stability in 251 00:20:02,740 --> 00:20:03,740 the region. 252 00:20:03,740 --> 00:20:08,140 These can alter how people interact with their environment and even see themselves. 253 00:20:08,140 --> 00:20:14,220 Can you speak, please, on how climate change alters how Egyptian Nubians view their cultural 254 00:20:14,220 --> 00:20:15,220 identities? 255 00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:18,620 That was hard for me because I've not worked in Nubia directly. 256 00:20:18,620 --> 00:20:19,620 I work in Sudan. 257 00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:25,500 Sudan is a couple of different cultures and geographies. 258 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:30,420 But I think it's a fair question to ask if we were designing research for you to do. 259 00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:33,740 You'd be to go to Nubia and ask that very, very question. 260 00:20:33,740 --> 00:20:39,300 It's a cheap question, how are they relating the changing conditions of the water availability? 261 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,660 Because they depend upon the water. 262 00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:46,860 But once you leave the admitted area and you fly over, the many, many times I float over 263 00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:54,020 the Nile, going over Egypt into Ethiopia, you see the river is a green stripe. 264 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:59,260 Did you look down the windows of the plane flying over? 265 00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:03,500 And outside of that admitted area of the Nile, it's brown. 266 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:05,660 The Nile itself is what gives life. 267 00:21:05,660 --> 00:21:11,420 And beyond that, you have to move the water or find access to some way of having the livelihood 268 00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:13,940 beyond the river itself. 269 00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:16,660 And so, of course, this affects the Nubians. 270 00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:19,300 It affects everyone who lives on the Nile. 271 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:22,820 The key source of life, it is declining. 272 00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:27,380 The water, as I said, no longer flow into the Mediterranean from Egypt. 273 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:31,340 It's all taken up by Egypt and Sudan. 274 00:21:31,340 --> 00:21:35,580 The Ethiopian now is going to do new damage to store that water. 275 00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:38,460 They found us that water is in the agriculture. 276 00:21:38,460 --> 00:21:44,700 But we'll see that how much water will be able to be released from that, as down in 277 00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:45,700 the Ethiopia. 278 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,340 So it's the big political issue of the day. 279 00:21:48,340 --> 00:21:53,900 People are being engaged in how do we negotiate this politically so that people have access 280 00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:54,900 to that water. 281 00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:56,420 But the Ethiopian controls it. 282 00:21:56,420 --> 00:21:59,140 The water comes off the Ethiopian islands. 283 00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:00,620 This is very intriguing. 284 00:22:00,620 --> 00:22:05,740 The Nile has long been a central part of the Egyptian Nubians' lives and culture. 285 00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:08,100 But climate change is clearly disrupting that. 286 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:13,420 For example, the way the Nile changes colors and a dwindling water flow demonstrates its 287 00:22:13,420 --> 00:22:14,420 observations. 288 00:22:14,420 --> 00:22:19,380 So, in a sense, the Egyptian Nubians' cultural identities are being challenged, which forces 289 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:23,420 a renegotiation of their relationship with the long river. 290 00:22:23,420 --> 00:22:27,420 Moreover, other African groups are facing something similar. 291 00:22:27,420 --> 00:22:31,980 Just as Ethiopia, which Professor McCann has done deep research on, asserts control over 292 00:22:31,980 --> 00:22:37,420 waters, flow in their highlands, altering dynamics of the Nile, the Egyptian Nubians also deal 293 00:22:37,420 --> 00:22:39,500 with concerns about the river. 294 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:43,020 The Egyptian Nubians see themselves at the forefront of discussions preserving their 295 00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:46,780 cultural heritage and the face of climate change. 296 00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:53,620 These cultural changes also expand into social dynamics like gender and occupation. 297 00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:58,460 Modern U. Professor McCann speaks to how gender dynamics have been affected by climate change 298 00:22:58,460 --> 00:23:02,940 and how it has affected Egyptian Nubians' view on their cultural identities. 299 00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:05,620 Well, that matters the key question. 300 00:23:05,620 --> 00:23:07,940 It's not a change you could go to. 301 00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:11,020 Any of these places on the Nile asks those questions. 302 00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:14,260 Those are some of the questions I ask when I'm in Ethiopia again. 303 00:23:14,260 --> 00:23:18,980 It's the place where the Nile comes out of the ground. 304 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:23,420 Of course, the water comes from many different places to follow me to. 305 00:23:23,420 --> 00:23:28,260 The one place, symbolically, is about, you can ask questions about gender. 306 00:23:28,260 --> 00:23:33,300 How do women relate to water in that setting compared to men? 307 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:34,300 What's the way? 308 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:40,500 It's different for each of the societies in which you move down the Nile from the highlands 309 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:43,740 into Sudan and into Egypt. 310 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:48,100 Each of those societies answers those questions in different ways. 311 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:54,060 Those are research questions to be explored, gender is an important issue, social class, 312 00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:59,980 political relations, who really controls the symbolic as well as the physical meaning 313 00:23:59,980 --> 00:24:03,860 of the Nile. 314 00:24:03,860 --> 00:24:05,820 If you're from Trasimget, that's San. 315 00:24:05,820 --> 00:24:08,380 San, there are no river systems. 316 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:16,620 Water comes from small sources of water for the Assad who are hunting and gathering people. 317 00:24:16,620 --> 00:24:26,380 Who live in a presence of a major economic power of South Africa, which is economies 318 00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:31,900 based on mining and the fact into a world economy. 319 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:36,580 The San are believed by the systems of control. 320 00:24:36,580 --> 00:24:39,500 Their life is not based on a river. 321 00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:41,380 Of course, you have to have water. 322 00:24:41,380 --> 00:24:47,340 It's hunting and gathering as Nekedal livelihood rather than living next to a river where you 323 00:24:47,340 --> 00:24:50,820 can in fact draw the water for agriculture and transport. 324 00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:56,660 So it's very, very, very similar to the Nile versus hunting and gathering society. 325 00:24:56,660 --> 00:25:00,460 That's the contrast I think that looks more. 326 00:25:00,460 --> 00:25:01,460 Yes I agree. 327 00:25:01,460 --> 00:25:06,780 Gender dynamics influence how women and men relate to water in other aspects of life and 328 00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:11,940 in various along the Nile, not one size fits all, and it's expressed with many other factors. 329 00:25:11,940 --> 00:25:16,620 As mentioned in the introductory episode, the source, national strategy from a mainstreaming 330 00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:21,140 gender and climate change in Egypt implies gender dynamics can vary within a seeking 331 00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:22,140 country. 332 00:25:22,140 --> 00:25:27,340 Your perspective and the perspective of my source show how important it is to conduct 333 00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:31,660 research to understand the intersectionality of gender and climate change. 334 00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:37,380 This source, particularly national strategy from a streaming gender and climate change 335 00:25:37,380 --> 00:25:42,380 in Egypt discusses how gender inequality and climate change are extremely linked. 336 00:25:42,380 --> 00:25:47,380 For example, it discusses how women are often very abrupt of climate change due to gender 337 00:25:47,380 --> 00:25:52,660 disparities in access to resources, education, finances, and decision making powers. 338 00:25:52,660 --> 00:25:56,340 Although they're trying to increase the number of women in office, these issues worsen their 339 00:25:56,340 --> 00:25:58,300 vulnerability to climate changes. 340 00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:02,900 A quote that stood out to me is how they said, climate change is not gender neutral. 341 00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:08,100 This suggests that climate change responses that must be kept in mind that the specific 342 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:13,580 needs of different people in ignoring these gender dynamics can worsen inequality and 343 00:26:13,580 --> 00:26:17,340 undermine the effectiveness of interventions. 344 00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:24,100 Another thing that's set out to me is how occupational dynamics have also been affected 345 00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:26,260 for the Egyptian Newbians due to climate change. 346 00:26:26,260 --> 00:26:33,340 For example, changes in precipitation patterns affect crop yields and availability of water 347 00:26:33,340 --> 00:26:37,860 for irrigation, forcing the Egyptian Newbians to change their practices. 348 00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:44,700 Some individuals seek alternative livelihoods, such as migrating to urban areas to find employment 349 00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:47,780 that has less dependent on natural resources. 350 00:26:47,780 --> 00:26:49,380 Where are your thoughts, Professor McCann? 351 00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:56,580 Well, for example, Egypt was based upon the availability of water for agriculture on the 352 00:26:56,580 --> 00:26:57,580 Nile itself. 353 00:26:57,580 --> 00:27:05,980 In a very clever way, in the moving of the water from the river to the fields by the 354 00:27:05,980 --> 00:27:11,660 technology developed, Egypt had this for centuries on centuries. 355 00:27:11,660 --> 00:27:17,180 That's the Egypt that destroyed how to move the water from the river through their fields, 356 00:27:17,180 --> 00:27:20,740 therefore able to feed on larger population. 357 00:27:20,740 --> 00:27:26,060 It's clear how much Egypt's occupational dynamics have relied on the Nile throughout 358 00:27:26,060 --> 00:27:27,300 the centuries. 359 00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:33,580 However, recent technological advancements have significantly changed how Egyptians 360 00:27:33,580 --> 00:27:35,740 interact with their environment. 361 00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:41,820 In response to climate change, threats to Egyptian culture and heightened risks, there's a growing 362 00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:47,060 emphasis on sustainable water management practices, including investment in irrigation 363 00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:48,780 systems. 364 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:53,300 Adapting the climate change challenges the Egyptians on currently more innovative agricultural 365 00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:54,500 technologies. 366 00:27:54,500 --> 00:28:00,900 These methods like irrigation systems grow crops that can better withstand climate change. 367 00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:06,460 Some Newbians are also exploring alternative methods beyond agricultural life, such as 368 00:28:06,460 --> 00:28:08,620 eco-tourism initiatives. 369 00:28:08,620 --> 00:28:12,540 Using both types of knowledge, traditional and modern, Egyptian Newbians are attempting 370 00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:16,380 to preserve their cultural heritage while adapting to climate change. 371 00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:21,300 Can you speak further on how Egyptian Newbians are fighting back against climate change and 372 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:22,860 resisting further? 373 00:28:22,860 --> 00:28:32,740 Well, climate change is a much bigger process, determined by global issues. 374 00:28:32,740 --> 00:28:41,180 But one of the key factors is how do you store water, how do you use and perceive water, 375 00:28:41,180 --> 00:28:45,820 both for ritual purposes and for religion, and how do you baptize people? 376 00:28:45,820 --> 00:28:54,180 How do you shorten these by use of water, so it has medicinal purposes and has lively 377 00:28:54,180 --> 00:28:56,460 improvements in terms of food? 378 00:28:56,460 --> 00:29:03,580 But what people are building with is the fact that they have to store the water, even though 379 00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:05,940 that's done by reservoir for a dam. 380 00:29:05,940 --> 00:29:12,660 But if you build a dam, what happens to the place where you're building the dam if it 381 00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:14,140 was accessed to water? 382 00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:21,420 I visited a site near, very, very near where the Nile comes out of the ground. 383 00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:24,380 And we were doing work on malaria. 384 00:29:24,380 --> 00:29:27,580 And so they let us come onto a place where they had built a dam. 385 00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:32,980 The Egyptian government had built a dam for the international contribution to build up 386 00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:41,740 this dam project, to store the water, and the guard on that land, he said, you can't 387 00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:42,740 come in here. 388 00:29:42,740 --> 00:29:44,340 But we have permission. 389 00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:47,700 The manager of your project just gave us permission. 390 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:48,700 And he had his rifle there. 391 00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:51,900 He said, no, no, you can't come in here. 392 00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:55,580 And he said, well, please, we need to go. 393 00:29:55,580 --> 00:29:59,900 We want to come in here to see how this is affecting where the Cedars will live and where 394 00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:03,300 you have problems with malaria, et cetera. 395 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:07,660 So finally he let us in, and then we began talking to him. 396 00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:13,900 And he said, you know, he said, I'm a guard here, this used to be my land. 397 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:19,340 And so he had to take a salary as a guard, a very low paying salary to be a guard on 398 00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:24,700 this dam project, because his land was now covered with water. 399 00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:29,020 Because they'd stored the water on his land, he lost his land. 400 00:30:29,020 --> 00:30:32,220 And so he became our friend. 401 00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:36,620 But his reason he was protecting it is because of his job as a guard. 402 00:30:36,620 --> 00:30:43,140 But he had lost his land in the farmer because of the way the water was controlled, stored 403 00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:44,140 behind the dam. 404 00:30:44,140 --> 00:30:49,060 Because you all break health questions for the people who live there. 405 00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:52,100 And if the government loses to him, no. 406 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:55,660 The government wants to produce electricity. 407 00:30:55,660 --> 00:30:59,100 They want to produce agriculture by controlling the water. 408 00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:00,700 Who gets access to that water? 409 00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:03,620 Depends on where you can fit the relatives of the government. 410 00:31:03,620 --> 00:31:06,740 So these are tough local issues. 411 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:11,900 I like that you highlight the challenges they face in combating, combating, and resisting 412 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:14,300 further consequences. 413 00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:19,100 The focus is on water management and how it impacts local communities like the loss of 414 00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:23,380 land, as well as political dynamics, and managing water resources. 415 00:31:23,380 --> 00:31:28,500 The story of the dam illustrates how projects can lead to displacement. 416 00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:33,420 His continued work at the dam site shows resistance or adaptation. 417 00:31:33,420 --> 00:31:37,940 At the loss, he maintains his connection to his land and community. 418 00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:42,780 Luju typically talks to you when you ask the best questions when you visit Africa. 419 00:31:42,780 --> 00:31:44,940 Academics are local people. 420 00:31:44,940 --> 00:31:49,100 For all of you above, but especially local people, I do inter-produse with people. 421 00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:54,500 I did a project for Oxfam where it took me six hours by a UL to get to the place which 422 00:31:54,500 --> 00:32:00,020 was affected by drought and by the famine. 423 00:32:00,020 --> 00:32:04,060 I spent two months there interviewing farmers. 424 00:32:04,060 --> 00:32:06,180 Farmers were both my neighbors there. 425 00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:10,980 I was the bilmi outsider there. 426 00:32:10,980 --> 00:32:13,660 I got malaria, by the way. 427 00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:18,060 But interviewing people and saying, okay, how do you get access to the materials you 428 00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:21,900 use for agriculture? 429 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:26,620 People became both people of interviewing and my friends. 430 00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:31,260 So that kind of interaction, and of course I talk to academics too. 431 00:32:31,260 --> 00:32:36,380 My friends in the Hottest Output, the capital, they interact with them all the time, even 432 00:32:36,380 --> 00:32:37,820 by email now. 433 00:32:37,820 --> 00:32:42,300 The farmers who were there, we were living together. 434 00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,260 I was the only outsider there. 435 00:32:45,260 --> 00:32:49,420 We had jokes, and they would come and play music in the evening. 436 00:32:49,420 --> 00:32:56,140 I have a tape here of my friend, Bedru, and I fall asleep to him playing. 437 00:32:56,140 --> 00:33:03,340 The instruments, we were talking about the difficulties of lighting in this area. 438 00:33:03,340 --> 00:33:07,940 These people were and became my friends. 439 00:33:07,940 --> 00:33:11,820 So those interactions, you were day to day, not just day to day, so of course you're asking 440 00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:12,820 by observing them. 441 00:33:12,820 --> 00:33:18,740 By observing them the way they cultivate their land, what they eat, what they prepare, and 442 00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:23,100 relationship between men and women, old and young. 443 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:26,980 Those are things you can only observe by being there and living with people. 444 00:33:26,980 --> 00:33:32,620 It's a wonderful thing to do, and you hold this. 445 00:33:32,620 --> 00:33:34,900 It helps them as well. 446 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:38,980 Thank you so much for sharing your insights with me, Prashan McCann. 447 00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:44,940 Before we end today's episode, please share any recommendations on books or resources 448 00:33:44,940 --> 00:33:48,100 to read to learn more about this topic. 449 00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:57,900 Again, those are very influential books in terms of African environments. 450 00:33:57,900 --> 00:33:59,620 That's why I'm leading the Stanley Sims. 451 00:33:59,620 --> 00:34:03,700 Allison Thindlend above the Arctic Circle, but there are 1,200 people from around the 452 00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:05,820 world who are coming to this meeting. 453 00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:14,860 But some of these other books here, so classic works of another pair of books, so works by 454 00:34:14,860 --> 00:34:23,180 so many of them around direct issues about water, about fire bliss, but also especially 455 00:34:23,180 --> 00:34:27,980 about agriculture, and what people do to make their livelihood work. 456 00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:31,060 Thank you again for agreeing to have me interview you, Professor McCann. 457 00:34:31,060 --> 00:34:34,420 You have very good insights on this topic. 458 00:34:34,420 --> 00:34:46,220 I shared so many exciting ideas.