1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,120
Hello listeners, welcome to the Culture and Climate Exchange podcast.

2
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:13,120
This episode explores the contemporary South African San peoples experience with climate change

3
00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:17,040
and how it influenced their cultural life and social dynamics.

4
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:24,400
Their story tells the tale of adaptation, resilience, and the intricate dance between

5
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:32,160
human cultures and their environments. My name is Misumi Awalabi and I am this podcast's host.

6
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:40,240
Imagine standing on the world's edge in the Kalahari Desert amidst the towering dunes and

7
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:47,200
feeling of soft grains of sand slipped through your fingers below the crimson and gold horizon.

8
00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:54,240
Here, people dwell whose connection lies deep due to many social and environmental factors.

9
00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:01,040
These people are known as the San people or the San Bushmen. The San are renowned for their

10
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:07,520
knowledge of the natural world, complex hunter-gatherer societies, and language, unfortunately.

11
00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,920
In recent times, the effects of climate change have begun to reshape their existence,

12
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:20,160
posing challenges to their livelihood and cultural practices. Their experiences include

13
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:26,640
perseverance, innovative responses to environmental challenges, and preservation of traditional

14
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:33,200
knowledge. Due to climate change, the problems introduced by colonialism have been exacerbated.

15
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:40,080
Their culture has been altered, and their gender and occupational dynamics have shifted. Therefore,

16
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,920
they respond with adaptation methods. I am thrilled to introduce our guest, a historian

17
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:51,840
from the University of New Mexico, to this episode. He has been working with the San since 1975.

18
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:59,360
He has originally worked with a team to study the San's culture, biology, language, and archaeology.

19
00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:04,960
He has been returning to the Kalahari to work with the Zan for almost 50 years.

20
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:11,840
Please welcome Professor Hitchcock. Hello Professor Hitchcock, and welcome as a guest on

21
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:18,080
the Cultural and Climate Exchange. I emailed Professor Hitchcock after reading his papers,

22
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:24,960
which include climate change, resilient livelihoods, and adaptations strategies among the Ju Hansi

23
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:31,600
Zan of Nainai, Nambia, and the plight of the Kalahari Zan. He has physically seen how climate

24
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:37,200
change has impacted settlement patterns and livelihoods, and how people have transitioned

25
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:44,000
from sedentary lifestyles and diversified their sources of livelihood. So this podcast

26
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:50,240
will first focus on the Zan's historical context and the change he observed. We will then examine

27
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:56,080
the effects of Western colonialism and dive into how gender dynamics have been altered or affected,

28
00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:02,000
as well as occupational dynamics. We will then look at how the Kalahari Zan's people's identity

29
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,880
has evolved due to climate change regarding culture, gender, occupation, and class.

30
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:13,360
Then we will discuss how the Zan people perceive climate change, and lastly, their efforts to

31
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:19,120
adapt to this changing environment. Professor Hitchcock will periodically give his insights

32
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,720
on the subject as we go along. Professor Hitchcock will first explain what he has seen in the last

33
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:30,720
50 years as an anthropologist. Well, both climate change as well as change in their cultures. The

34
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:40,000
biggest change, I think, for many Zan has been settling down. They've become sedentary. That's

35
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:50,000
what I wrote my dissertation about. And they have diversified their livelihoods. They've gotten

36
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:58,240
more involved, say, in agriculture and livestock production. And the responses to climate change

37
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:06,480
have been interesting. Some of them had to do with changing the kinds of plants they utilize,

38
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:15,840
diversifying their numbers and types of plants. In some cases, they've had to abandon areas because

39
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:24,720
of long-term drought and other climate changes, and they don't have any access to water. They've

40
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:33,120
started using more specific kinds of resources for moisture, such as melons.

41
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,520
We're talking about 130,000 people in eight countries in southern Africa. So

42
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:47,760
there's a lot of variability in the kinds of responses they have to climate change.

43
00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:55,840
Thank you, Professor Hitchcock, for those insights. As you can see, imagine stepping into the world of

44
00:04:55,840 --> 00:05:01,840
the Zan people. They were connected to their lands by embracing livelihoods like agriculture and

45
00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:08,880
livestock production. However, the specter of drought continues to loom, forcing them to change their

46
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:15,760
way of life. However, this is not solely due to climate change, but heavily to Western colonialism.

47
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:22,720
This arguably, though, has worsened climate change's impact on these cultures. As we examine the

48
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:29,040
cultural historical context of the Zan people's experiences, it becomes evident that this

49
00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,640
environmental change impact is deeply intertwined with socio-political forces that have shaped their

50
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:41,920
lives. With this encroachment on their lands and resources, Western colonialism has left a

51
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:47,440
lasting imprint on the Zan community, exacerbating the challenges posed by climate change.

52
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,880
The biggest impact of Western colonialism has been the reduction in the land available for the

53
00:05:54,880 --> 00:06:07,440
Zan people. In Libya, for example, the Zan used to occupy the entire country, and now they occupy

54
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:13,840
a much smaller portion of the country. Much of the land was given to German colonial

55
00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:26,000
farmers and later Afrikaners from South Africa. But so much of the land was given to

56
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:35,600
Soana, and before that, to the British and to Africaners who occupied the western part of

57
00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:42,400
the country in free-bould farms. I think the biggest change with colonialism has been the

58
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:51,440
dispossession of the Zan. Close your eyes and imagine the vast expanse of the Kalahari desert

59
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:58,400
once the ancestral homeland for the San people now encroached on by foreign settlers. The loss of

60
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:05,200
land and territory has disrupted their traditional ways of life and intensified the impacts of

61
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:11,600
environmental degradation. These land losses restricted the Zan people's access to natural

62
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:18,000
resources essential for their livelihoods such as water sources grazing land for livestock

63
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:24,880
and area gathering for wild plants. These limitations made it more challenging to cope

64
00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:31,840
with the impacts of climate change such as droughts and shifts in plant and animal distributions.

65
00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:39,360
These possessions of land also led to forced settlement of the Zan people into fixed locations

66
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:46,640
disrupting their monat nomadic lifestyle. This made them more vulnerable to extreme weather events

67
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:56,800
and environmental hazards that can no longer move freely in search of resources or avoid areas

68
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:03,840
affected by climate related disasters. San people were also affected by climate change in their

69
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:10,880
daily lives including their nutritional situation. Professor Hitchcock will provide more information.

70
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:20,080
A number of effects for one is reduced their livelihoods and their I would say their nutrition.

71
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:25,360
I think that nutrition of Zan people in many cases is worse off now than it was

72
00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:34,000
10 years ago and part of that is because of climate change. The governments have tried to

73
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:45,040
offset the problems of nutritional difficulties by providing some food and other resources cash

74
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:51,120
so that they can buy food but the food that they provide similar to the United States with Native

75
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:59,520
Americans in the 19th century is that it's mostly a maize meal needs not very diversified they might

76
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:09,120
get a little tin of fish and some milk powder and that's problematic in terms of the diet.

77
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:15,280
So I would say that the government efforts which are modeled on those of the United States for

78
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:22,960
indigenous people have not been as effective as they could be at averting the problems of climate

79
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:29,600
change. It's genuinely concerning to hear about the impacts of climate change on the Zan people's

80
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:36,240
nutrition and how it worsened in the past decade. Although the government has tried to alleviate

81
00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:42,480
these difficulties it tends to fall short of addressing the root causes. It's imperative

82
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:48,800
that more effective strategies need to be implemented to address these climate related issues.

83
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:55,680
What other effects of climate change occur on the Zan people? More specifically their culture.

84
00:09:55,680 --> 00:10:02,720
The things is that they in the past because they had access to wide areas they could move

85
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,640
to places they can't do that anymore because most of the land is taken up by other groups

86
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:18,080
and that's a huge issue and that has changed their culture. You see some decline in cultural

87
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:26,960
traditions. Perhaps there are fewer healing dances today than there used to be in the past. Some of

88
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:37,360
that is due to the deaths of major healers. Some of that came about over the years. The younger

89
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:48,480
people were not being trained in healing dances in the lab. Dances were for dealing with the sick.

90
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:57,120
Indirectly I guess you could say that the number of people sick can be related to

91
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:05,040
climate change. It's a difficult connection there. Certainly climate change has made things worse for

92
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:12,160
people in terms of their nutrition. That means that there are more efforts to try and heal people.

93
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:20,160
Overall I would say that climate change has affected some of the traditions

94
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:26,560
in particular the healing traditions. It's disheartening to hear about the

95
00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:34,320
decline in cultural traditions such as healing dances. This is indicative of the broader erosion

96
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:42,160
of cultural identity and knowledge systems. It shows not only the immediate impact of land loss

97
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:49,280
but also the intergenerational transmission of cultural practices. This decline reminds us of

98
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:56,000
the social, cultural, environmental factors in transforming some people's culture. This topic

99
00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,640
in fact reminds me of an article written in 2nd-Ground 4. The article is called

100
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:06,000
Culture Under Threat special report on the Saan Bushmen. Saan people feel they are losing their

101
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:13,040
culture. In the article Soba Sagarah represents his Saan community. Despite some efforts to

102
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:19,360
meditate these problems they faced like poor health, lack of education, and difficulties with

103
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:25,360
this language in schools. Climate change could exacerbate these existing struggles by affecting

104
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:32,240
land availability and agricultural productivity. Could you, Professor Hitchcock, share insights

105
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,800
on this? To what extent are the Saan people's culture changing due to climate change?

106
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:44,000
Climate change has had an effect certainly. Some Saan have gone to the climate change meetings.

107
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:53,440
For example the one that they had in the Middle East in November. They've attended those meetings

108
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:59,760
and this has given some recognition to Saan. I would say the major things that are affecting

109
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:06,320
Saan cultural identity have got so much climate change as their activism to try and get the

110
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:13,360
governments to treat them fairly and to give them compensation for the land that they lost or give

111
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:23,200
them land itself. Climate change has made things more complicated but is sometimes

112
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:30,400
provided opportunities for Saan-sposed persons to take part in meetings and that may have an effect

113
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:36,960
on Saan cultural identity. It's honestly commendable that the Saan people have been participating in

114
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:42,720
these climate change meetings. Climate change clearly poses challenges to Saan people's cultural

115
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:49,200
identity such as loss of land and resources. But it's essential to realize that the core issues

116
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,640
for many indigenous communities do center around the government treating and the compensation for

117
00:13:54,640 --> 00:14:00,320
this history. This is an example of how indigenous communities have advocated for their rights to

118
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:08,000
their land resources and self-determination throughout history. This might likely be due to how

119
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,040
they have been faced displacement, exploitation, and marginalization as their lands have been

120
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:18,560
colonized, exploited for resources, or altered by environmental degradation. Despite these

121
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:24,880
challenges, indigenous people like the Saan strive to protect these rights in ancestral

122
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:31,280
territories. The advocacy often involves legal battles, grassroots movements, and international

123
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:36,800
attention efforts. From what I've read, women in particular often bear the impacts of environmental

124
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:43,200
degradation and climate change. I specifically read a book titled Gender and Climate Change

125
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,960
South Africa Case Study which gives crucial perspective on the gendered impacts of climate

126
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:55,360
change. Its central argument is that climate change is not gender-neutral. This source

127
00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:02,720
spotlights impacts with examples such as women's limited access to natural, financial, and social

128
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:09,200
and human resources. The book also discusses the differences in societal roles men and women have,

129
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:16,240
demonstrating that women make up over 70% of the workforce population in the area. This finding

130
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:22,720
shows that the consequences will in turn affect women's ability to provide for their family due

131
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:29,120
to shifts in agricultural practices caused by environmental change. Could you please share

132
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:34,640
your personal thoughts on this topic, Professor Hitchcock? How have these gender dynamics have

133
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:40,640
been affected by climate change? How has climate change influenced the way people perceive their

134
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:47,120
gender identity? It's a good question. I would say one of the things that Patricia Draper, who's a

135
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:53,280
major Saan scholar, says about Saan is that they're the most gender equitable society on the

136
00:15:53,280 --> 00:16:00,640
planet. At least they were in the 1960s and 70s. Now that's changed. Men are more dominant

137
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:06,880
politically and in day-to-day activities. Although interestingly enough, it's important

138
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:13,360
to say that Saan women really are providing, have provided the bulk of the subsistence,

139
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:20,400
particularly plant foods. And they're the ones who are doing most of the experiments on looking for

140
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:31,280
new kinds of plant foods to utilize. And also they're the ones who are more involved in

141
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:38,080
agriculture, particularly in providing new kinds of crops that have been introduced. For example,

142
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:45,520
sweet potato, which had a big effect, at least among the strength-wise, the sweet potato coming

143
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:53,040
from that point in your guinea. But I would say that the gender dynamics are such that women

144
00:16:53,040 --> 00:17:01,680
play a very important role, but politically they're not as significant or socially as they were in

145
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:10,800
the past. The result of climate change would be indirectly related, but I'd say that it's more

146
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:18,080
a result of things like government policies and some of the activism within the Saan communities.

147
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:25,280
You don't see very many women, Saan women leaders, for example. They play a huge role in behind the

148
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:33,520
scenes decision-making, but you don't see very many Saan chiefs or female. Would it make a difference

149
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:38,320
if there were more women leaders? Yeah, I think it would make a big difference. And I think there

150
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:46,880
are efforts to promote that, both five Saan women themselves, even as well as by organizations,

151
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:54,000
Red Cross and Red Crescent, UNICEF, the European Union, and others that are trying to promote

152
00:17:54,000 --> 00:18:00,160
women's empowerment. Do you know any ways that climate change is affecting women's lives?

153
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:08,240
Do you think these issues are due to them being women? Yeah, I mean, I would say that the biggest

154
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,880
impact of climate change is more on women than men, if you think that women are the ones who do

155
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:20,240
most of the gathering and much of the agributory. And the men, while they did do some odding,

156
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,920
they've been doing very little odding these days. So the women are providing the bulk of the

157
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:34,880
livelihoods, and that automatically means that climate change affects them, it affects everybody,

158
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:42,560
but particularly it affects women and children. And women are the ones who do most of the

159
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:48,560
experimentation, for example, they try new foods, new plant foods, and that kind of thing. So,

160
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:56,480
yeah, climate change is having an effect on gender and on the roles of both women.

161
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:03,280
Gender is only one significant social dynamic affected by climate change's impact,

162
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:09,600
but occupational dynamics have also been altered due to climate change. I read an article titled

163
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,560
Climate Change in South Africa, 21 Stunning Facts about South Africa's Climate Breakdown.

164
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:19,840
This was by the nonprofit Greenpeace, which discussed the hardships of climate change,

165
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:26,320
one particular fact that struck me in the article. It mentions the vulnerability of specific

166
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,040
occupational groups in South Africa that have these effects on economic well-being.

167
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:37,440
For instance, it used examples of how reduced productivity, earnings, and health issues

168
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:43,520
caused by climate change, especially intense heat, all factor into problems within the workforce.

169
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,880
Can you add to this? How have occupational dynamics been affected by climate change in

170
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:55,120
South Africa? How has climate change influenced the way people perceive their occupational identity?

171
00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:00,160
Another good question. Well, let me say first that climate change has had an effect on

172
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:10,160
a disease rate, and that's having an effect on people. It's hard to say whether the COVID,

173
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:17,680
for example, which hasn't had a very big impact on some people, was due in part to climate change.

174
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,880
There's certainly a relationship between the same climate change and disease.

175
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:36,000
To me, the ways in which this has worked out, it's hard to identify specifically that

176
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:43,200
the cultural identity issues, I think if anything, the cultural identity issues are becoming more

177
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,960
pronounced in Southern Africa. Whether that's due to climate change, I don't think it is just

178
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:55,200
climate change. That's a factor. But also, for example, the ways in which the governments dealt

179
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:04,640
with COVID is that they didn't go out and provide masks and other kinds of vaccinations and

180
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,480
food commodities to help replace the losses that COVID brought about.

181
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,680
And tourism is another factor that figures in here. Certainly,

182
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:28,480
climate change has affected tourism so did COVID substantially. And tourism has had the impact of

183
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,880
promoting cultural identity and cultural heritage. People are proud of their identity,

184
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,760
and they want to show it to tourists. But the numbers of tourists dropped off substantially

185
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:48,000
beginning in 2020 and is only now rebounding. Would you say the tourist industry due to climate change

186
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:54,640
is getting lower or increasing? I think that tourism numbers dropped off certainly

187
00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,240
in the last several years that climate change may have been a part of that. I mean, you don't,

188
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:08,480
one thing climate change has done is it made it easier to travel around in the Cali are partly

189
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:15,600
because there's less, less, many less mud making it difficult for tourists to travel.

190
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:24,720
But overall, I would say that the big changes that climate change has brought have more to do,

191
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,960
I think, with the livelihoods and nutrition of sign people.

192
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:35,440
Another thing I think of, like, considering the sign people and how climate change shifts

193
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:42,080
their occupational dynamics is the South African Medical Journals article, Climate Change and

194
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:48,880
Occupational Health, a South Africa perspective. If you can't tell by the title, this discusses

195
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:55,760
more specific examples of people in the workplace with chemicals present, agricultural workplaces,

196
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:04,480
and miners. Most of the constant trait of the effects of heat and global warming is clear how

197
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:11,120
their traditional occupations and way of life are deeply intertwined with their environment.

198
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:17,760
As climate change alters their ecosystems and weather patterns, I found this article very insightful.

199
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:25,040
It is a contribution to considering how these perspectives and examples when addressing climate

200
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:32,400
change is multifaceted issues. This article briefly touches upon the mining industry,

201
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:38,480
and I find that very intriguing because mining often involves hazardous conditions,

202
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,960
and the risks become even more apparent when climate change worsens.

203
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,840
For instance, extreme weather. Can you speak more on these challenges that affect the sign miners?

204
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,720
One thing that has happened is the mining industry, if anything, in both Namibia and

205
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:06,640
Botswana, ends in Bobway for that matter, has expanded. Similar to that is the role of

206
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:15,840
companies, Chinese companies, Canadian companies, Australian companies, which are expanding their

207
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:22,160
operations. That's had a very tough effect. For example, recon Africa, which is a Canadian

208
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:28,240
company, is operating in Namibia, Botswana. They're using fracking to be able to access

209
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:38,160
the water that's used in making their oil and gas wells. That has had a very substantial effect

210
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,680
on the dropping of the water to fable. People have less access to water and they're very angry

211
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:51,040
about it. That has generated a lot of environmental activism and environmental justice movements.

212
00:24:51,040 --> 00:25:00,160
So the mining industry, if anything, is expanding and that has caused a lot of repercussions for

213
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:08,000
people, people being resettled, people giving some employment admittedly to some people.

214
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,200
But most of the mining companies prefer not to employ sawd, which is another story.

215
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:19,040
Interesting to note how the mining industry has expanded into countries like Namibia,

216
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:27,440
Zimbabwe, and Botswana, and how these countries have significantly impacted local communities

217
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:34,720
and the environment. These instances of fracking techniques for oil and gas spark controversy,

218
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:42,480
environmental justice, and activism. Given what you've informed me and your experience and research,

219
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,240
how do you think the sawd people perceive climate change?

220
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:53,440
Well, I think they see climate change. They certainly remark about it. They discuss it a lot.

221
00:25:53,440 --> 00:26:02,240
They talk about how in the old days there used to be a lot of rain. The plant growth was substantial.

222
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,120
There were a lot of wild animals and that has changed completely. They're very similar in many

223
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:16,000
ways to what people say in the United States during the 19th century about what was happening

224
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:23,760
with climate change and as well, of course, as commercial activities like the exploitation of

225
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:32,960
buffalo. So you do get so many people remark about how life is tougher now than it used to be.

226
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:39,520
It sounds like you're pointing out a parallel between the observations of the sawd people

227
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:46,000
regarding climate change and the historical accounts of the 19th century United States.

228
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:51,680
The shed light on how environmental changes have affected traditional ways of life across

229
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,680
the different cultures and periods. What you said about a large amount of rain, plant growth,

230
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,920
and wildlife demonstrates the significant shifts experienced by the sawd people.

231
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:08,320
Mirrored how environmental changes impacted the indigenous communities and settlers in America,

232
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:14,720
you also brought attention to the economic and social ramifications of environmental

233
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,320
transformations, mentioning the exploitation of the buffalo. So how do you sawd people

234
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:27,440
fight back and organize against climate change? Trying to participate in, for example, each country

235
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:34,480
as its own climate change agency, organization and sawd are trying to get representatives on to

236
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:41,040
that. It hasn't been very easy. The governments are not all that willing to include sawd for,

237
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:52,320
I would say, the racist reasons. But the sawd certainly are organizing themselves to try and

238
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,760
fight climate change. They're even writing grants to the European Union and to the U.S. Agency for

239
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:04,640
International Development at the World Bank to get funding for climate change resilience

240
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,560
activities. And that's had a very positive effect, I think. Your perspective really addresses how

241
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:16,880
evident it is that despite their stake in environmental sustainability and resistance,

242
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:24,480
the sawd often face barriers to inclusion in decision-making processes. Your observation

243
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:31,280
about how the sawd people in their communities actively organize themselves to address

244
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:39,040
climate change is inspiring and underscores their determination. The sawd assertor agency

245
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:46,160
to make valuable contributions to global resilience efforts to adapt to this changing climate

246
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,360
is hemmed and vegetated. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with me, Professor Hitchcock.

247
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:59,040
Before we end today's episode, please share any recommendations on books or resources to read

248
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,440
to learn more about this topic. And question again, there's a new book that's just come out with

249
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:12,240
author, the main author is one named Preeti Pr Edity Gadoke and it's on climate change. It's

250
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:22,320
being introduced at the Society for Plydentapology readings in Santa Fe on the 29th of this month,

251
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:31,120
next month. And that's probably the most recent discussion of climate change. And it's a worldwide

252
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,320
survey. It's mostly of indigenous people. I have a chapter in there on the general

253
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:43,840
class but there are other chapters that deal with in new editing and others. So I would say that's a

254
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:52,320
good example of a recent publication that is now broadly available that people would find of interest

255
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:58,240
because it does show that different strategies and indigenous people including sawd are using

256
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:04,960
to try and deal with climate change. Thank you so much again for agreeing to have me interview you,

257
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:11,360
Professor Nishga. You have excellent insight on this topic and share so many exciting ideas.

258
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,480
Pretty much I appreciate your interest. Next episode, we'll explore the impacts of climate

259
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:24,000
change on the Egyptian Newbeans. Their story promised to offer another unique perspective on

260
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:29,280
climate change from the other side of the continent. These communities like the sun

261
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:35,680
also face challenges due to environmental changes. It is needless to say we should amplify diverse

262
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:42,400
forces in the climate crisis conversation. And I am excited to discuss their experiences and insights.

263
00:30:42,400 --> 00:31:00,400
Thank you all for listening.