WEBVTT 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:18.350 Welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building Profitable 00:00:18.350 --> 00:00:21.789 Connections. If you've wondered how leaders bring 00:00:21.789 --> 00:00:25.050 out the best in people for every generation, 00:00:25.410 --> 00:00:29.230 this conversation is going to grab you. Today's 00:00:29.230 --> 00:00:32.409 guest works with the Gen Z, boomers, millennials, 00:00:32.750 --> 00:00:36.469 and everyone in between. He doesn't play favorites. 00:00:36.509 --> 00:00:40.810 He listens, challenges, and brings out talent 00:00:40.810 --> 00:00:44.229 that was hiding in plain sight. He has shaped 00:00:44.229 --> 00:00:47.009 leaders who went from struggling with communication 00:00:47.009 --> 00:00:51.009 to becoming strong influences within their companies. 00:00:51.969 --> 00:00:55.090 He knows how to handle conflict without turning 00:00:55.090 --> 00:00:58.950 the room tense. He coaches decision makers to 00:00:58.950 --> 00:01:01.170 work smarter with people who you think behave 00:01:01.170 --> 00:01:05.030 and communicate differently. What I love about 00:01:05.030 --> 00:01:09.549 his approach, it's simple. It's real, it's practical, 00:01:09.750 --> 00:01:15.719 and it works. I'd like to introduce Nikhil Raval. 00:01:16.099 --> 00:01:19.640 I'm sorry, I butchered your last name. I always 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:22.700 do that. But I'd like to welcome you to the podcast. 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:24.980 Why don't you give us a little bit of background 00:01:24.980 --> 00:01:29.299 and tell me how you got here today. Thank you, 00:01:29.299 --> 00:01:30.980 Michael. And that's a very kind introduction. 00:01:31.260 --> 00:01:34.680 And so my story is really broken into two buckets. 00:01:35.769 --> 00:01:38.310 grew up in Asia in India for maybe the first 00:01:38.310 --> 00:01:40.810 15 years and then I migrated to the U .S. and 00:01:40.810 --> 00:01:43.269 spent many years there doing education working 00:01:43.269 --> 00:01:45.609 there a good decade in the financial services 00:01:45.609 --> 00:01:49.709 industry and then in 2002 I went back came back 00:01:49.709 --> 00:01:52.209 to Asia as it was growing and things were happening 00:01:52.209 --> 00:01:55.409 and I said to myself I'll do just about anything 00:01:55.409 --> 00:01:58.530 but I won't fall into teaching or training or 00:01:58.530 --> 00:02:01.290 consulting and sometimes life takes you to a 00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:03.810 path the path that you resist the most and so 00:02:03.810 --> 00:02:06.730 there I was I had an opportunity. I dabbled into 00:02:06.730 --> 00:02:09.129 teaching, training, consulting. And in my last 00:02:09.129 --> 00:02:11.370 role, I was the MD of a company where we built 00:02:11.370 --> 00:02:14.650 leadership solutions for leaders, very experienced 00:02:14.650 --> 00:02:17.650 leaders, people with 15, 20, 25, 30 years of 00:02:17.650 --> 00:02:20.330 experience across Asia. So I got a fantastic 00:02:20.330 --> 00:02:22.509 ringside view of what a company is grappling 00:02:22.509 --> 00:02:25.930 with, what leaders have to do. And in 2018, I 00:02:25.930 --> 00:02:28.550 think I'd done enough and seen enough. So I went 00:02:28.550 --> 00:02:32.110 to the dark side, which is on my own. And I had 00:02:32.110 --> 00:02:33.870 a chance to finish all my bucket list, which 00:02:33.870 --> 00:02:36.629 was to I delivered a couple of TED Talks. I managed 00:02:36.629 --> 00:02:39.530 to do that and write a book, which I learned 00:02:39.530 --> 00:02:42.389 how to do that. So that was on Gen Z. And then 00:02:42.389 --> 00:02:44.509 from the Gen Z book, Michael, I really, you know, 00:02:44.509 --> 00:02:46.270 what I noticed is that a lot of my consulting 00:02:46.270 --> 00:02:49.069 work is that it isn't just the Gen Z, it's their 00:02:49.069 --> 00:02:51.750 bosses and people around the whole ecosystem 00:02:51.750 --> 00:02:54.830 are also all part of that. That led me to write 00:02:54.830 --> 00:02:56.750 the second book, which is on multi -generations. 00:02:57.229 --> 00:02:59.770 And like you, I'm fortunate to have run another 00:02:59.770 --> 00:03:02.090 podcast, which is called Working with Gen Z, 00:03:02.150 --> 00:03:04.199 which is fairly popular. globally ranked among 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.680 the top two, three Gen Z podcasting. So here 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:11.439 I am. That's great. And I, like I said, I've 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:14.919 seen the videos of your podcast. I was fortunate 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:17.919 enough to be on the podcast, but you have a huge 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.039 following and everybody really pays attention 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.960 to what you have to say. So whatever you're doing 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.719 it well and just keep doing it. Okay. I have 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:30.860 a few questions for you. You work closely with 00:03:30.860 --> 00:03:34.800 Gen Z and other generations. What's one misconception 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:38.759 that keeps people from connecting effectively 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:44.580 at work? So, Michael, let me ask, and let's just 00:03:44.580 --> 00:03:47.300 put this as a sort of a what -if scenario. Let's 00:03:47.300 --> 00:03:51.099 say if I had to design a TikTok or a LinkedIn 00:03:51.099 --> 00:03:54.560 campaign in your company, who would be the person 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:57.219 that you're going to hire? There's a good chance 00:03:57.219 --> 00:03:59.379 that you're probably thinking of someone. maybe 00:03:59.379 --> 00:04:01.199 in their 20s thinking that, you know what, that 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:03.419 person over there, I think he or she will do 00:04:03.419 --> 00:04:06.419 a good job. And even while this may be just in 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:09.939 your mind, there is probably you made a kind 00:04:09.939 --> 00:04:11.939 of subconscious decision of saying that, you 00:04:11.939 --> 00:04:14.560 know what, there's one young person who's good 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.759 at this and there's probably another experienced 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:19.079 person in my team who may not like technology 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:21.560 and who may not be good with technology. So I 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:24.600 guess the first place that we often stumble into 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:28.060 this whole multi -generation conflict zone or 00:04:28.060 --> 00:04:31.120 a situation where people start thinking about, 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:33.220 okay, here's my boss and this is what's happening, 00:04:33.339 --> 00:04:36.360 is the stereotypes that we carry about each other. 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:40.040 And I can go on, but the stereotypes are just 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:43.040 that. They are stereotypes, right? I think generations 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.180 have existed for many years. In our personal 00:04:46.180 --> 00:04:48.319 life, we've had to deal with our parents and 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:50.259 our grandparents, right? And so they come from 00:04:50.259 --> 00:04:52.759 different generations. So it isn't a new concept, 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.939 but I think it just gets amplified in the workplace. 00:04:55.339 --> 00:04:58.680 And more so with all that literature that's out 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:00.660 there, I think we'll talk more. more as we go 00:05:00.660 --> 00:05:03.399 along that I think we can keep it simple based 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:05.680 on just doing away with some of the stereotypes 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.899 and what's even called meta stereotypes, which 00:05:07.899 --> 00:05:10.480 means like I carry a certain stereotype about 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.180 my own self or my generation. And that's where 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:15.680 it all starts. So that's, I would say that, and 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:17.800 we can go into some of the stereotypes, but that's 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:22.000 the place where it starts normally. Okay, good. 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:25.459 I like where this is going and I could interject 00:05:25.459 --> 00:05:27.420 a little bit, but I'm going to wait a little 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:30.850 bit longer. Okay. When a leader needs to build 00:05:30.850 --> 00:05:34.889 trust with younger employees, where should they 00:05:34.889 --> 00:05:40.610 start in the very first conversation? Sure. So 00:05:40.610 --> 00:05:44.269 I think one of the things which is very important, 00:05:44.389 --> 00:05:46.529 Michael, as we think about different generation, 00:05:46.709 --> 00:05:49.490 and especially for, let's say, the Gen Z generation, 00:05:49.610 --> 00:05:51.990 because that is the youngest generation in the 00:05:51.990 --> 00:05:54.689 workplace, it's to appreciate the context in 00:05:54.689 --> 00:05:57.959 which they're coming to work. And I won't go 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:00.300 into the details of the context of all the prior 00:06:00.300 --> 00:06:02.800 generations, but the Gen Z generation, rightly, 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:05.819 wrongly, and we don't, I think they just have 00:06:05.819 --> 00:06:10.800 seen enough within their 25 to 29 years of being 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:12.579 on planet Earth, which is to say that they have 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:14.899 seen a war, they've seen a pandemic, they've 00:06:14.899 --> 00:06:17.459 seen the Me Too movement, they're seeing fake 00:06:17.459 --> 00:06:21.300 news, they're seeing plenty, which often... People 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:23.300 will say that there isn't the traditional word 00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:25.579 of the midlife crisis, but it's the quarter -life 00:06:25.579 --> 00:06:27.480 crisis. And therefore, I think the first way 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.439 to start, if you're a good people leader, is 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:32.879 to just create the space for them to say that, 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:35.259 hey, listen, how do I build trust and how do 00:06:35.259 --> 00:06:37.720 I make you more comfortable? And today in the 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:41.120 HR... world in the leadership space there's so 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:43.199 much being talked about psychological safety 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:46.600 and safe to speak but a lot of that will only 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.420 work in my view Michael if the leader or the 00:06:49.420 --> 00:06:52.319 manager is willing to invest the time which means 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:54.920 that if he or she comes to your room if he or 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:57.680 she is coming to ask you a question and you disagree 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.339 with them or you don't kind of want to subscribe 00:07:00.339 --> 00:07:03.540 to their way of thinking you still want to create 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:05.879 that space where they feel like listen I should 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:08.259 voice my opinion my boss isn't going to hold 00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:11.839 it against me and gradually when you do that 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:16.339 enough you will see that trust gets filled and 00:07:16.339 --> 00:07:19.120 i say that this is even more necessary today 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:21.819 because of where technology has taken us right 00:07:21.819 --> 00:07:24.639 so if you see the curve of how technology is 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.839 quickly growing it is nearly impossible back 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.759 in the day when you went to the boss and said 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:32.180 i don't want a problem i want the solution today 00:07:32.180 --> 00:07:34.060 the problems themselves have become extremely 00:07:34.060 --> 00:07:38.300 complex so therefore it is in the manager's good 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:40.600 decision or in their interest to say that, you 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.480 know what, I think I need to appreciate another 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.240 lens. And the only way you can appreciate another 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:49.259 lens is for them to be open in sharing their 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:50.839 ideas. Now, at the end of the day, you may still 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:53.500 disagree with them and you may say, hey, I think 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:55.769 I've seen enough, but... And I appreciate your 00:07:55.769 --> 00:07:57.610 input there, but I think on this one, we're going 00:07:57.610 --> 00:08:01.110 to go this way. And it's a gradual process. I 00:08:01.110 --> 00:08:04.250 see, and I work with companies, I think people 00:08:04.250 --> 00:08:06.370 believe that this is something that's going to 00:08:06.370 --> 00:08:08.329 happen in one conversation or two conversations, 00:08:08.370 --> 00:08:11.550 but it's something that just takes time, a lot 00:08:11.550 --> 00:08:13.629 of patience, and a lot of investment, I would 00:08:13.629 --> 00:08:17.209 say, in the manager's part. Why don't you say 00:08:17.209 --> 00:08:21.290 that it's a two -way street, that the Gen Z has 00:08:21.290 --> 00:08:26.350 to begin trusting the owner and the owner also 00:08:26.350 --> 00:08:29.550 has to begin trusting the Gen Z. It's a two -way 00:08:29.550 --> 00:08:32.250 street. You have to be open to trust, but it 00:08:32.250 --> 00:08:35.250 can't be one -sided. One side can't be open to 00:08:35.250 --> 00:08:37.600 it. Absolutely. I think you make a good point. 00:08:37.700 --> 00:08:40.120 And I think just to conclude that last point, 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.659 I do want to mention that it isn't all about 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:45.059 the managers not doing what they do. But I think 00:08:45.059 --> 00:08:48.500 and I often say this to I often say this to the 00:08:48.500 --> 00:08:51.080 Gen Z's in when I do workshops to say that, look, 00:08:51.220 --> 00:08:54.179 you have a 40 or a 50 year runway. There is a 00:08:54.179 --> 00:08:57.080 good chance you will have a millennial as a boss 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.460 or a Gen Xer as a boss for at least the next 00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:02.860 20 years because that's their runway. Now. Forget 00:09:02.860 --> 00:09:04.759 about whether you like it or not, but the fact 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:06.840 remains that they're going to be either your 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:09.440 colleagues or bosses or in some capacity, right? 00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:12.080 So it's a kind of a two -way street where you 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:13.860 need to take the interest to say what inspires 00:09:13.860 --> 00:09:15.940 them. Why do they want to communicate this way? 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:17.720 Why do they see careers this way? Why do they 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:20.340 see learning this way? And therefore, I think... 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:22.620 equally the flip side is to where the managers 00:09:22.620 --> 00:09:25.220 need to think about that. Listen, if I'm an Xer, 00:09:25.299 --> 00:09:28.259 I've got about 20 years or 15 years. If I'm doing 00:09:28.259 --> 00:09:30.259 a workshop, there's a good chance that the same 00:09:30.259 --> 00:09:32.200 workshop nine, five years from now, we'll have 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:34.620 more Gen Zs in the room than maybe the people 00:09:34.620 --> 00:09:39.519 that are there now. Very good. Okay. Good. Okay. 00:09:39.659 --> 00:09:44.460 So what's the most common reason multi -gen teams 00:09:44.460 --> 00:09:48.289 struggle to work with one another? And how should 00:09:48.289 --> 00:09:52.809 leaders respond when tensions rise? Yeah, so 00:09:52.809 --> 00:09:55.370 I think, as I mentioned, one of the things that 00:09:55.370 --> 00:09:59.970 leads to some of this is, and Michael, we've 00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:03.149 spoken about communication and forms of communication, 00:10:03.470 --> 00:10:07.429 but how do we get to build that sort of routine 00:10:07.429 --> 00:10:09.730 of communication? But I think I would start with 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:12.830 both. the self -awareness which is the first 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:15.309 step this is to say that okay if i'm a manager 00:10:15.309 --> 00:10:17.730 managing people of different levels different 00:10:18.220 --> 00:10:21.100 age groups, different cultural backgrounds. Am 00:10:21.100 --> 00:10:23.419 I self -aware of my strengths? In other words, 00:10:23.460 --> 00:10:27.720 do I tend to default back to my old habits? And 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:29.899 therefore, I think the self -awareness becomes 00:10:29.899 --> 00:10:32.679 the number one thing for people leading people 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.039 to say that, okay, are you reasonably aware of 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:37.080 your blind spots? And there are ways in which 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.299 you can minimize that. You can ask feedback and 00:10:39.299 --> 00:10:40.980 you can do many other things. You can have instruments 00:10:40.980 --> 00:10:43.580 and so on. So that is the first place that I 00:10:43.580 --> 00:10:46.019 think the more we can become aware of ourselves, 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.909 the more we know. that, okay, what should I not 00:10:48.909 --> 00:10:51.750 do when I'm in front of a colleague or a peer 00:10:51.750 --> 00:10:54.269 or let's say someone that I'm managing? The other, 00:10:54.309 --> 00:10:56.850 as we mentioned, is just the stereotypes, right? 00:10:57.049 --> 00:11:00.769 Now, there are many ways to overcome this, and 00:11:00.769 --> 00:11:02.529 I'll just mention very briefly a couple of ways. 00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:04.850 So one of the things that I do is what I call 00:11:04.850 --> 00:11:07.889 an assumptions audit, which means that if you 00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:11.299 truly have a multi -gen team, Let's say you and 00:11:11.299 --> 00:11:12.980 I are on a team and let's say we've got two other 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:14.659 people. We'll come together and say, okay, what 00:11:14.659 --> 00:11:16.659 is the one assumption I've been making about 00:11:16.659 --> 00:11:19.559 this person that maybe he's not good with technology? 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.019 And you keep, you floor the assumptions. And 00:11:23.019 --> 00:11:25.460 I think you figured out a way in which you can 00:11:25.460 --> 00:11:27.299 bring that into a conversation. Now you need 00:11:27.299 --> 00:11:29.299 a good facilitator. You need someone to appeal 00:11:29.299 --> 00:11:33.059 some of that. So it requires you to. put that 00:11:33.059 --> 00:11:34.740 out there, which means there has to be trust 00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:37.240 in the team. But the second step is what I call 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:40.039 adjust the lens, which means that why should 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:42.299 I assume that Michael is not good with technology? 00:11:42.580 --> 00:11:45.100 Maybe Michael is more savvy than the Gen Z in 00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:47.740 the room. And I think adjust the lens simply 00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:50.399 says that we then get to know the person a little 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.720 better from what is happening. And I think that 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:55.460 there are the four things that one could do is 00:11:55.460 --> 00:11:57.960 what I also call mutual mentoring, which means 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:02.360 that if I am good at something, Can I offer and 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:06.299 teach my skill sets or my expertise to the team? 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:08.740 And can I request and be humble enough to have 00:12:08.740 --> 00:12:11.580 someone else do it the other way? And there you 00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:13.980 have to be at least be humble enough to say that, 00:12:14.019 --> 00:12:16.899 look, I'm going to shed my ego. If a 25 -year 00:12:16.899 --> 00:12:19.500 -old person can teach me how to do a TikTok video 00:12:19.500 --> 00:12:22.779 much better than, let's say, I, even though I 00:12:22.779 --> 00:12:24.679 may have 25 years of experience, I think we should 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.379 just say, hey, listen. I think I need to learn 00:12:27.379 --> 00:12:29.919 from you. So you could do some of these things. 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:33.500 Again, culture means new routines, which means 00:12:33.500 --> 00:12:37.000 that it's not about just tall promises and beautiful 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.519 posters. It is about doing it, doing it consistently 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:44.379 and having ways to track it. So you're really, 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:48.059 you're saying it's a mindset shift that they 00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:52.200 have to be open to the communication between. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.659 their bosses or peers or something else. Because 00:12:56.659 --> 00:13:00.639 if a Gen Z person walks in and they don't have 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.100 that mindset that they are going to be open to 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:07.500 these changes, they're not going to last, right? 00:13:07.620 --> 00:13:12.080 And as the manager or the owner, they'll look 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:15.399 at the new hire and they'll say, this person 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.970 can't play well with others. So they're not going 00:13:18.970 --> 00:13:21.529 to have the job for very long. So you're saying 00:13:21.529 --> 00:13:23.669 that they should really open up a little bit, 00:13:23.730 --> 00:13:26.549 have a mindset shift, and it'll go a lot longer. 00:13:27.950 --> 00:13:30.610 Absolutely. Absolutely. And there are lots of 00:13:30.610 --> 00:13:33.110 biases that we have, Michael, that could be another 00:13:33.110 --> 00:13:35.649 conversation. But I think one of the most common 00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:37.610 ones, I just want to lay this out there because 00:13:37.610 --> 00:13:40.870 that what that everybody falls prey to is that 00:13:40.870 --> 00:13:43.200 and certainly when we get more experiences. what 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.759 I call the confirmation bias, which is simply 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.600 to say that I have a belief in my head and I'm 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.000 going to look for data that just confirms that 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.000 belief, right? So if I have a tough assignment, 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:54.860 I'm going to talk to my three friends who will 00:13:54.860 --> 00:13:57.019 say, hey, don't do this. This is not a good thing 00:13:57.019 --> 00:14:00.120 to do. Rather than can I think about another 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.019 perspective? Can I welcome another opinion? And 00:14:03.019 --> 00:14:06.580 I think for managers, for people. in both sides 00:14:06.580 --> 00:14:09.440 of the aisle right they just need to consciously 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.580 build a habit to invite another perspective i 00:14:12.580 --> 00:14:15.159 may disagree with them but i know can i the only 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:17.440 way i can appreciate like what is michael going 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.620 to talk about is to say michael i still like 00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:22.039 to hear what you have to say you may have made 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.240 a decision and i think that is one of the things 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.779 that if we can just even work towards that that 00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:30.620 can bring a lot of harmony and we can go from 00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:36.240 friction to fusion Yeah, no, I absolutely believe 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.360 in what you're saying. But it's the people who 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.700 surround you. So you don't want yes men. You 00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:45.620 don't want somebody or people to agree with everything 00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:48.200 that you say because you're not getting anything, 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:51.059 any information that way. So if you get some 00:14:51.059 --> 00:14:54.340 people say, look, I wouldn't do it that way because 00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:57.340 I would do this and this. And you can say, I 00:14:57.340 --> 00:14:59.019 agree with that, but not really. So I'm going 00:14:59.019 --> 00:15:01.820 to do it my way. But at least you had a different 00:15:01.820 --> 00:15:05.419 point of view. So you can judge yourself and 00:15:05.419 --> 00:15:10.120 really for managers, supervisors, VPs, C -suite 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:14.720 people, you have to have a lot of those rather 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:18.980 than having yes men, right? Absolutely. When 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:22.940 I've owned multiple companies and we've always 00:15:22.940 --> 00:15:27.559 had that opportunity to have people say, should 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.840 you really have done that? Because I would have 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.679 done it this way. And it makes you think. And 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:35.860 oh, you're right. And sometimes I had to go in 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:40.480 and apologize to my employee. But that didn't 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:43.940 happen too often. So it's just it's a mindset. 00:15:44.379 --> 00:15:50.460 I agree. Does curiosity help a leader influence 00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:54.019 without coming across too pushy or political? 00:15:55.740 --> 00:16:00.850 Yeah, so I think the. The way in which we, I 00:16:00.850 --> 00:16:03.769 just spoke a little while ago, that we think 00:16:03.769 --> 00:16:07.330 about how we've gone from industry 1 .0, 2 .0, 00:16:07.350 --> 00:16:12.139 3 .0, 4 .0, 5 .0, and what has happened. in the 00:16:12.139 --> 00:16:14.679 shift in talent right so there was a time in 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.659 which we needed to have engineering skills and 00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:20.039 engineering and math skills and standardization 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:23.580 but i think we're now there where i think one 00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:25.419 of the biggest thing that the world is facing 00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:28.379 every company every leader is every entrepreneur 00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:32.039 is gonna face is what i call just the skill set 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.720 of learning agility which is to say that how 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.019 do i unlearn some of what i know and how do i 00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:41.259 look at transdisciplinary lens up the way in 00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:43.539 which the world is happening. And I think even 00:16:43.539 --> 00:16:46.940 while we're now a few years from the COVID experience, 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.080 but I think COVID taught us that, which is to 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.700 say that like you don't, you cannot, you didn't 00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:54.259 quite solve the problem by having a good vaccine. 00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:56.139 You had to think about who's going to get it, 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:58.600 how are we going to ship it? What's the pricing? 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.000 What's the communication strategy? And therefore 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.320 you cannot say that, look, if I've made one good 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.500 vaccine, I've solved the problem. And I think 00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:09.900 therefore. Curiosity goes a long way. And I think 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:11.980 if you think about the way in which technology 00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:14.519 has grown, right? I think we've seen very few 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:16.660 inventions in the last 200 years, but we've seen 00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:19.980 so much more in the last 30 years. And they say 00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:23.500 that that curve is nothing but not linear curve, 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:26.329 right? It's just going straight up. Therefore, 00:17:26.410 --> 00:17:30.470 curiosity to me is so fundamental today and the 00:17:30.470 --> 00:17:33.990 ability to be curious about things. The other 00:17:33.990 --> 00:17:36.289 day, somebody was telling me that Chad GPT can 00:17:36.289 --> 00:17:38.910 actually solve and do better financial analysis 00:17:38.910 --> 00:17:42.289 than the first year McKinsey consultants. Now, 00:17:42.390 --> 00:17:44.650 if you're in that kind of a situation, what does 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:47.240 that say? That says that... I have to be curious 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.259 about either learning technology, I have to be 00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:51.299 curious about ways in telling my clients that, 00:17:51.339 --> 00:17:53.700 look, GPT is one, they're going to do something 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.240 here, but I am going to help you bring that other 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.519 element. It's a core competency now in what I 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.960 call the future of work. Yeah, I always view 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:08.920 AI or chat GPT as a tool, right? So if you're 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:14.720 a financial advisor, use AI. as a tool and you 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.720 talk to your customers because people still need 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:22.279 the people mode. They still have to talk to people. 00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:25.220 People don't feel comfortable unless they get 00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:27.740 another person, even if they're doing it through 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:31.380 Zoom, because here you and I are speaking, but 00:18:31.380 --> 00:18:34.140 you're a person. So you're a person behind the 00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:38.710 camera. So I use AI all the time. But I use it 00:18:38.710 --> 00:18:42.170 as a tool and I use it as a backing for what 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:45.769 I'm saying and I'm talking to you about it. So 00:18:45.769 --> 00:18:49.109 that's the way that I use it. You're right, because 00:18:49.109 --> 00:18:51.130 the other thing that, Michael, what happens, 00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:53.029 especially when we're talking about generations, 00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:55.990 I almost empathize and most people sympathize 00:18:55.990 --> 00:18:59.250 for the Gen Z generation, because here is a generation 00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:01.789 which is. growing into the internet. I always 00:19:01.789 --> 00:19:05.089 say Gen Y accepted technology, but Gen Z expects 00:19:05.089 --> 00:19:08.869 technology. And I think we have to be cautious, 00:19:09.069 --> 00:19:11.769 you know, while AI is so powerful and everything 00:19:11.769 --> 00:19:14.190 that we don't become over -dependent. In other 00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:16.369 words, you don't, in many ways, people say that, 00:19:16.410 --> 00:19:17.869 look, you're outsourcing, you're thinking to 00:19:17.869 --> 00:19:20.450 AI. And the other day I was reading, there's 00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:22.150 an experiment done. I think one of the schools 00:19:22.150 --> 00:19:25.029 at Caltech, what they did is that they actually 00:19:25.029 --> 00:19:29.519 tracked, they did three groups of people. where 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.940 they gave a problem to solve the human mind, 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.039 the brain. And then there was another set of 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:36.119 problems which had to be solved through using 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:39.440 Google. And the third was using chat GPT or let's 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.799 say generative AI. And what they found out in 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:43.819 their brain movements over like the six months 00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:47.180 is that the two on this side, which is the AI 00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:50.980 and the Google, the brain movement, they were 00:19:50.980 --> 00:19:52.819 shrinking in the sense that there was more atrophy 00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:55.519 building to go because you're not using the muscles 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:59.500 or the cells. or the neurons. So I totally agree 00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:02.400 with you. I think our ability to solve on our 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:05.059 own is so much more crucial and that human element 00:20:05.059 --> 00:20:09.079 should never go away. Absolutely. And I've heard 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:12.039 of that study, by the way. So I know exactly 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:15.039 what you're talking about. But I've always been 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:20.740 in the camp of using my head because I have to 00:20:20.740 --> 00:20:22.799 make the decision whether I'm going to use AI 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:27.269 tool, the AI tool or some other tool. And I have 00:20:27.269 --> 00:20:29.529 to learn how to put them all together. I use 00:20:29.529 --> 00:20:32.069 them all, but I put them together and come up 00:20:32.069 --> 00:20:34.869 with my own decision. And that's what I think 00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:39.009 separates us from the computer, so to speak. 00:20:39.309 --> 00:20:43.890 Okay. In your view, what's the biggest mistake 00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:47.589 leaders make when trying to communicate expectations 00:20:47.589 --> 00:20:54.240 clearly? I think one of the things that you may 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.680 have read, there's a very good book written by 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:59.160 a gentleman called Daniel Pink. And he's written 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:02.579 a book called The Drive. And he essentially in 00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:05.200 that book talks about what are some of the explicit 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:08.420 factors that are expected from an employee, like 00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:10.140 when he or she is joining a company. And we all 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:12.099 have a list like salary and brand and this and 00:21:12.099 --> 00:21:14.079 that. And he said that, OK, look, even if we 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:16.700 get seven out of 10 on a good day, that's pretty 00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:20.589 good. But what matters to employees beyond all 00:21:20.589 --> 00:21:24.569 of that is the ways in which we are giving them 00:21:24.569 --> 00:21:28.029 engagement at workplace. And I always say, Michael, 00:21:28.089 --> 00:21:30.170 fundamentally that there was a time in which 00:21:30.170 --> 00:21:32.470 perhaps like maybe our generation, your generation, 00:21:32.509 --> 00:21:34.210 my generation, like the way in which we looked 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:38.549 at work was that I gave time. and there was money 00:21:38.549 --> 00:21:41.029 on the other side. So the exchange was time against 00:21:41.029 --> 00:21:43.430 money. Now it's going where it's a more of a 00:21:43.430 --> 00:21:45.329 value exchange. In other words, what value do 00:21:45.329 --> 00:21:47.789 I bring and what value does the employer bring? 00:21:47.910 --> 00:21:49.930 And that's the way in which people are looking 00:21:49.930 --> 00:21:53.410 at it. And I think the biggest mistake that... 00:21:53.660 --> 00:21:57.279 we tend to do is that managers tend to delegate 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.599 the responsibility, but not the authority. So 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:02.779 I'll just repeat that. Managers tend to delegate 00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:05.380 the responsibility, but not the authority. I 00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:07.359 want to tell the whole world that, listen, I'm 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:12.400 all for innovation. But the moment a team member 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.740 comes to me and says that, hey, boss, can I try 00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:16.519 this a different way? You just simply say no. 00:22:18.250 --> 00:22:20.289 Just saying this as a general example, because 00:22:20.289 --> 00:22:22.190 there's always instances where you want to do 00:22:22.190 --> 00:22:24.069 the tried and tested versus when do you allow 00:22:24.069 --> 00:22:27.589 them to do an experiment. But it requires the 00:22:27.589 --> 00:22:30.950 manager to let go, which means that they don't 00:22:30.950 --> 00:22:35.170 have to feel so attached and in love with what 00:22:35.170 --> 00:22:38.589 they do. And therefore, I think that is a growing 00:22:38.589 --> 00:22:41.049 process. I've seen people with 25 years of experience 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:43.710 and holding on to what they know and not letting 00:22:43.710 --> 00:22:47.190 it go. And it almost becomes their own sort of. 00:22:47.470 --> 00:22:50.069 Yeah, ways in which it can boomerang to them, 00:22:50.190 --> 00:22:52.289 which means they can't delegate more and they 00:22:52.289 --> 00:22:55.059 continue to do the same thing. And therefore, 00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:57.940 the way to overcome that is to make sure that 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:00.480 we give autonomy properly. We give them skills 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.140 to become good. We show them a purpose and why 00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:05.799 it is. And then we provide the safety to do this. 00:23:05.900 --> 00:23:08.660 Now, I'll just say one last thing. Safety doesn't 00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:10.740 mean here that you don't hold people accountable. 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:13.640 A lot of times people say, hey, I want psychological 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:16.019 safety and I like that company and I like that 00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:18.180 boss. But that is not at the cost of accountability. 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.960 You still hold them accountable. And I think 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:22.539 that's the distinction that people have to make, 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:25.019 that you can create a safe space, but you can 00:23:25.019 --> 00:23:28.619 still hold them accountable. Absolutely. And 00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:31.779 I want to bring you back about 40 years, maybe 00:23:31.779 --> 00:23:36.140 longer. I went into the military and I was in 00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:40.359 the Air Force and I was under the tutelage of 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:44.619 a sergeant who was my supervisor. And he said, 00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:47.400 look. When you go out there, when you go out 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.440 and you go on to the base, you do perform your 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.960 duties, make a decision. Right or wrong, make 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:58.079 the decision. Because, listen, if you make the 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:00.660 right decision, fantastic. If you make the wrong 00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:04.480 decision, we'll clean it up, okay? But you have 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:07.740 to make that decision and you have to be accountable 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:12.180 for that decision. So that should make your decision 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:15.569 -making process that much more important. And 00:24:15.569 --> 00:24:18.690 this was taught like 40 years ago, but that was 00:24:18.690 --> 00:24:22.470 the same concept because you have to not only 00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:25.329 give the responsibility, but give the authority 00:24:25.329 --> 00:24:29.210 to make those decisions. And that's, it just 00:24:29.210 --> 00:24:31.190 brought me right back. When you were talking, 00:24:31.349 --> 00:24:33.829 it just brought me right back to him. I was like, 00:24:33.869 --> 00:24:37.650 oh my goodness, exactly. But it made me the person 00:24:37.650 --> 00:24:42.119 I am today. And I think that would be very helpful 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:47.039 for a Gen Z person going into the workplace after 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.500 they've established themselves. You can't walk 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:53.019 through the door and expect this. But let's say 00:24:53.019 --> 00:24:55.119 after a year of being in there, you're given 00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:58.380 responsibility, but you're given the accountability 00:24:58.380 --> 00:25:01.539 for it. Say, look, you're going to have to be 00:25:01.539 --> 00:25:04.019 accountable for this. So you have to make your 00:25:04.019 --> 00:25:07.380 decision. So I think that's a very good point 00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:11.490 that you're making. Okay, if someone wants to 00:25:11.490 --> 00:25:14.930 improve how well they connect with others, what's 00:25:14.930 --> 00:25:18.250 a small daily practice that has a big payoff? 00:25:19.970 --> 00:25:22.410 Michael, I was just coming back from doing about 00:25:22.410 --> 00:25:24.509 four workshops for a very large conglomerate. 00:25:24.569 --> 00:25:26.589 They're extremely successful leaders, about 20 00:25:26.589 --> 00:25:29.910 years of experience. And one of the things they're 00:25:29.910 --> 00:25:31.990 grappling with is just the fact that they're 00:25:31.990 --> 00:25:34.890 good in their teams, but what is the value for 00:25:34.890 --> 00:25:39.339 them to go out? in other words to go across and 00:25:39.339 --> 00:25:44.400 I think it is as simple as understanding and 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.799 I gave lots of examples to say that look any 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:50.180 company that we admire today and the leaders 00:25:50.180 --> 00:25:52.039 that we admire and i gave i just gave a couple 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:54.400 of examples like companies like google or microsoft 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:56.900 there were times in which many of their products 00:25:56.900 --> 00:26:00.740 were independent not working together and not 00:26:00.740 --> 00:26:03.279 realizing the potential but it's the people in 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.559 the organization some of the key leaders who 00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:07.900 made that happen which is to say that they were 00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:10.960 becoming a crucial bridge to some of these other 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:14.099 functions. And that simply can only happen when 00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:16.240 you can build relations. You certainly don't 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.319 have authority over three product lines, but 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.279 if I just build relations with you and let's 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:23.140 say someone else who's holding another portfolio, 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.400 over time, people not just value my technical 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:28.460 skills, but they understand that, look, he takes 00:26:28.460 --> 00:26:31.079 people along and he takes everybody along. And 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:34.720 I sense that I always say as our conversation, 00:26:34.980 --> 00:26:38.579 Michael, which was that Networking shouldn't 00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:42.420 be seen as transactional. Networking is all about 00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:45.079 a longitudinal game, which means that I attend 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:49.420 conferences or I go and spend a day in my colleague's 00:26:49.420 --> 00:26:51.519 office and say, hey, what is it that they're 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.740 doing? And I read up on something and I make 00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:58.339 a brand. But at the end of the day, remember, 00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:02.009 you're doing this. To expect something next three 00:27:02.009 --> 00:27:03.829 months, six months, that's just the wrong way 00:27:03.829 --> 00:27:06.569 of looking at it. And I always say that I think 00:27:06.569 --> 00:27:09.349 the more you can take the more mature view of 00:27:09.349 --> 00:27:12.509 building relations in an organization, it almost 00:27:12.509 --> 00:27:15.930 becomes your coalition or your bench or your 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:19.230 championship support, which is there in the background 00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:21.910 without coming in the foreground. But when the 00:27:21.910 --> 00:27:25.089 pyramid gets smaller, it's those people whom 00:27:25.089 --> 00:27:27.269 you build relations will come and step up and 00:27:27.269 --> 00:27:29.829 say that, you know what? Michael is a super guy. 00:27:29.970 --> 00:27:32.309 I know him. He's worked hard. Like even though 00:27:32.309 --> 00:27:34.950 he was not directly reporting to me, he was always 00:27:34.950 --> 00:27:36.650 willing to help. He was always willing to do 00:27:36.650 --> 00:27:39.529 this. And I sense that leaders and especially 00:27:39.529 --> 00:27:42.089 young people, Michael, I think if they can just 00:27:42.089 --> 00:27:45.410 appreciate and take that view, that networking 00:27:45.410 --> 00:27:48.230 is so crucial. And it's just crucial and important 00:27:48.230 --> 00:27:50.470 even in personal life, the ability to build relationships, 00:27:50.690 --> 00:27:54.970 right? I don't know if you realized it, but you 00:27:54.970 --> 00:27:59.099 hit the core of networking. With what you said, 00:27:59.180 --> 00:28:04.140 ever since the pandemic, networking was really 00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:07.359 transactional. Before the pandemic, I feel it 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.779 was very transactional. I have a widget. You 00:28:10.779 --> 00:28:13.660 have three dollars. You can have my widget and 00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:17.099 that's it. But afterwards, it's become more relationship 00:28:17.099 --> 00:28:21.279 oriented, more relational. And I used to go to 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.359 networking events. I was in a mortgage field. 00:28:24.460 --> 00:28:26.720 I had to come home with a shoebox filled with 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.000 business cards. Look how good I did. What I did, 00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:34.319 horrible, right? Now, all the people that I coach 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.180 and teach and everything else, and I'm mentoring 00:28:37.180 --> 00:28:42.380 a few, when you go to a networking event, 15 00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:46.589 cards, maybe 20, because then... I know that 00:28:46.589 --> 00:28:49.250 you've spoken with them. You've created that 00:28:49.250 --> 00:28:52.029 relationship. And of course, that builds up for 00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:54.069 the follow -up, which is a whole nother story, 00:28:54.190 --> 00:28:58.630 right? But it gives you the opportunity to follow 00:28:58.630 --> 00:29:02.329 up with all these people. You create that relationship. 00:29:02.809 --> 00:29:05.089 And when you create the relationship, you go 00:29:05.089 --> 00:29:10.150 so much further. Absolutely. Can you share a 00:29:10.150 --> 00:29:14.269 time when a mistake became the spark? for better 00:29:14.269 --> 00:29:20.369 relationships or improved teamwork so it i think 00:29:20.369 --> 00:29:23.809 maybe i can share times in which i've seen this 00:29:23.809 --> 00:29:28.650 with clients right and i i again i go back to 00:29:28.650 --> 00:29:31.569 say that in many of the companies michael what 00:29:31.569 --> 00:29:33.849 was happening is that as they were becoming more 00:29:33.849 --> 00:29:38.180 global the ability to communicate was becoming 00:29:38.180 --> 00:29:41.500 harder considering time zones and all of that 00:29:41.500 --> 00:29:44.539 the roles and so on and at some point companies 00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:47.119 suddenly realized that look there has to be a 00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:50.019 way in which we have to make this work because 00:29:50.019 --> 00:29:52.240 you're serving a global client you're serving 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:55.200 someone who's across zones and one of the things 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:58.700 that they did is that they actually made 50 percent 00:29:58.700 --> 00:30:03.950 of their sort of appraisal process to be like 00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:06.690 having a weighted average of 50 % through the 00:30:06.690 --> 00:30:10.170 team collaboration. So in the earlier world, 00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:12.529 what used to happen is a lot of conflict. I blame 00:30:12.529 --> 00:30:14.970 you that, you know what, Michael has to show 00:30:14.970 --> 00:30:17.109 up at 10 o 'clock his time and I have to show 00:30:17.109 --> 00:30:19.529 up at midnight my time and all these things were 00:30:19.529 --> 00:30:22.849 happening. And I think it was, again, just this 00:30:22.849 --> 00:30:27.130 whole view of how do we appreciate working and 00:30:27.130 --> 00:30:30.309 making collaboration happen. and i just say this 00:30:30.309 --> 00:30:32.170 more generally rather than quoting an instance 00:30:32.170 --> 00:30:35.789 but i say that i think It becomes so much more, 00:30:35.869 --> 00:30:39.309 again, that longitudinal view. I've seen people 00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:42.769 when they have to do cross -selling as a skill 00:30:42.769 --> 00:30:45.670 set, right? How do I know what is Michael doing? 00:30:45.769 --> 00:30:47.630 What am I doing? What is the third person doing? 00:30:47.829 --> 00:30:49.869 Then they go and spend some time, what I call 00:30:49.869 --> 00:30:53.109 day in the life of a customer. And they together 00:30:53.109 --> 00:30:56.369 then go and pitch to the client. And I think 00:30:56.369 --> 00:30:59.369 prior to that, and I just, again, I say this 00:30:59.369 --> 00:31:02.410 because When you're working in a silo matrix 00:31:02.410 --> 00:31:05.569 situation, what tends to happen is that you're 00:31:05.569 --> 00:31:07.490 in your world and you're doing your thing. And 00:31:07.490 --> 00:31:10.769 lots of companies have what I call shouting match 00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:12.630 cultures, which means that something happens 00:31:12.630 --> 00:31:14.430 and something doesn't happen. Like they just 00:31:14.430 --> 00:31:19.049 escalate and elevate and escalate. And that's 00:31:19.049 --> 00:31:20.690 just the thing that that's the way things should 00:31:20.690 --> 00:31:23.309 be done. And on the flip side is that I think 00:31:23.309 --> 00:31:26.450 if you just have a way in which you can kind 00:31:26.450 --> 00:31:28.859 of. Say that, look, this is the one way in which 00:31:28.859 --> 00:31:30.740 we have to make this happen. And increasingly 00:31:30.740 --> 00:31:34.140 now with so much work being done globally across 00:31:34.140 --> 00:31:36.960 teams, right? So I say that those are two or 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:39.440 three ways or two or three instances where I've 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:43.819 seen clients where how do we get past these my 00:31:43.819 --> 00:31:49.460 tower of excellence and look beyond. Good, good. 00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:54.519 Okay. How do you help people handle conflict 00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:58.019 in a way that strengthens relationships instead 00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:03.539 of tearing them apart? Yeah, so I think so much 00:32:03.539 --> 00:32:06.380 has been written on conflict and there are all 00:32:06.380 --> 00:32:09.920 these stages of conflict that it's in a sort 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:12.259 of early stage and then it's brewing and it's 00:32:12.259 --> 00:32:15.140 getting bigger and then you don't have the strength 00:32:15.140 --> 00:32:17.759 to call someone out and then it continues to 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.920 brew and it just becomes so big and then it just... 00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:22.819 gets to a stage where it's unavoidable or inevitable 00:32:22.819 --> 00:32:25.200 and then you do the post -mortem and try to fix 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:29.319 that now a lot of what is becoming more popular 00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.980 michael in organizations today is what we call 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:36.000 non -violent communication or nbc and the microsoft 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.140 ceo actually noticed this in his company when 00:32:39.140 --> 00:32:41.180 he took over, when he realized that we're far 00:32:41.180 --> 00:32:43.960 behind in our product strategy, which is to say 00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:45.779 that we missed out on mobility, we missed out 00:32:45.779 --> 00:32:48.160 on social media, we missed out on what else, 00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:51.420 on search engine and so on. But what he wanted 00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:53.299 to fix was the culture, which is saying that 00:32:53.299 --> 00:32:55.660 every man or every person was for themselves. 00:32:56.099 --> 00:32:58.799 And so what the nonviolent communication is essentially 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:02.400 saying is that I still communicate what I... 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:05.160 feel based on a certain need which is not being 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.319 felt. And there's a kind of certain process to 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:11.319 that, but it's just a very powerful way of almost 00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:14.440 making sure that the conflict is not there. It's 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.700 almost like the pre -conflict stage, if you can. 00:33:16.940 --> 00:33:19.299 And I think if companies and managers can start 00:33:19.299 --> 00:33:22.539 practicing that, then you almost are, you're 00:33:22.539 --> 00:33:26.119 sharing what you want, deeply waste on what you 00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:28.920 feel without getting fit. very aggressive or 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.299 shouting or anything like that. And it's just 00:33:32.299 --> 00:33:34.299 a skill. And I feel that it's such an important 00:33:34.299 --> 00:33:36.059 skill today because even when people have to 00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:38.900 give feedback in some cultures, giving straight 00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:41.200 feedback is very easy. In some cultures, it's 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:44.700 not very easy. And therefore, people are moving 00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:46.839 around and things like that. So this nonviolent 00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:50.359 communication, NBC, is basically written by this 00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:52.200 guy called Marshall Rosenberg, right? He's written 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:55.430 that book. And he just... says that, look, this 00:33:55.430 --> 00:33:58.769 is a good way for us to do away with this whole 00:33:58.769 --> 00:34:01.569 sort of sandwich feedback and becoming very aggressive. 00:34:01.809 --> 00:34:05.309 And I think that is one very tried and tested 00:34:05.309 --> 00:34:07.650 approach that many companies are doing today. 00:34:08.989 --> 00:34:13.590 And that's so true. The culture of a company 00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:18.320 comes from the top down. And like you said, it's 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.320 a skill that they have to master. You can't just 00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:23.400 say, okay, I'm going to change the culture of 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:25.940 my company, and overnight it's going to change. 00:34:26.380 --> 00:34:30.059 They have to practice. Now, the upper echelon, 00:34:30.099 --> 00:34:34.239 the CEOs, the C -suite executives, even the supervisors 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:39.360 have to practice because the new people coming 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:42.320 in just say, oh, this is the culture, and they 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.519 accept it. but it has to work from the top down. 00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:50.099 And that's part of the training that I give the 00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:54.099 C -suite executives, because when I teach the 00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:57.659 workplace, when I do a workshop for them, and 00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:01.599 if nothing changes from up top, then what I'm 00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:04.119 doing is for naught, right? It's not going to 00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.619 do anything. So it's a skill and they have to 00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:10.639 master it. And once they master it, then everybody 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.869 gets along that much better. That's right. Okay. 00:35:14.269 --> 00:35:19.110 So people learn in different ways. How can a 00:35:19.110 --> 00:35:22.610 leader shape communication so everyone in the 00:35:22.610 --> 00:35:28.610 room feels engaged and understood? Yeah, great 00:35:28.610 --> 00:35:31.230 question. I think one of the challenges that 00:35:31.230 --> 00:35:35.559 people have experienced even more. pronouncedly, 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.320 which is the fact that how people see communication 00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:42.760 post -COVID. And I say this because all of our 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.780 preferences of how we used to communicate and 00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:47.340 what's happening because of the intervention 00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:50.440 of technology has changed that. But I had to 00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:52.460 do a workshop, Michael, I think in the middle 00:35:52.460 --> 00:35:55.739 of COVID, how do you lead people in, how do you 00:35:55.739 --> 00:35:58.480 lead hybrid teams? One of the things that I think 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:01.670 first, before we get to that is to be mindful 00:36:01.670 --> 00:36:04.110 of the fact that the manager of the future will 00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:06.690 have to lead people in these four boxes that 00:36:06.690 --> 00:36:09.389 I give, which is to say that synchronous, asynchronous 00:36:09.389 --> 00:36:13.670 on one axis, and remotely and together in another 00:36:13.670 --> 00:36:17.010 axis, which means that I'm either on a Zoom call 00:36:17.010 --> 00:36:20.010 or a team call, that's one, or let's say we do 00:36:20.010 --> 00:36:22.840 a call and someone... picks it up as a recording 00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:25.639 i'm in an office physically or i'm doing that 00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:28.639 remotely and therefore you cannot take the view 00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:31.000 that i'm good at one thing or used to lead people 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:33.539 you know being in the office like the world the 00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:36.199 workplace is changing in a way that as a ceo 00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:37.840 of microsoft says that you have to be good in 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:39.940 all four because the younger generation has that 00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:43.820 has their context now generally what tends to 00:36:43.820 --> 00:36:45.960 happen in the post COVID because so many other 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:48.000 companies are doing some combination of hybrid 00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:51.159 two plus three five plus zero whatever it is 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:53.239 like whatever works for them in their own sort 00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:56.699 of world which means that you should have a quick 00:36:56.699 --> 00:37:00.679 sort of a protocol or a rule of like how you're 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:02.639 going to communicate which means okay if it's 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.690 an emergency You can text me. If it's a client 00:37:05.690 --> 00:37:08.750 communication, we do an email. If it's a team 00:37:08.750 --> 00:37:10.989 kind of a conversation, we can use Slack or we 00:37:10.989 --> 00:37:13.050 can use Teams or we can use something. So I think 00:37:13.050 --> 00:37:17.090 what works is defining the protocol and also 00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:19.610 keeping in mind that every generation also has 00:37:19.610 --> 00:37:22.110 a slight preference. Like I remember from my 00:37:22.110 --> 00:37:25.429 time and I'm sure as you can relate that I preferred 00:37:25.429 --> 00:37:27.750 writing emails and that's just the way I felt 00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:29.769 that the boss should know and everybody else 00:37:29.769 --> 00:37:32.380 should know. Over time, like I'm thinking that 00:37:32.380 --> 00:37:34.840 maybe other mediums are like easier, maybe a 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:37.500 voice note. And I see and I learned that from 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:40.480 the younger generation. So I think every generation 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:42.880 has a preference, but the way in which you can 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.360 manage it a little bit tightly is to just have 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:48.619 a certain rule to say that, listen, if it's expected 00:37:48.619 --> 00:37:51.800 to be, it's a client and expected to be written 00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:54.159 in 24 hours, this is the medium. If it's less 00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:58.820 than four hours. use a chat. If it is 48 hours, 00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:02.159 use this. And I think if we can do that, then 00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:04.320 just makes it easy. And today, most companies 00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.639 are deploying technology in a good way, but it's 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:10.440 this protocol that needs to be set. Absolutely. 00:38:10.579 --> 00:38:13.860 You first have to figure out who your customer 00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:18.000 base is, and that's how they receive. What you're 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.960 saying, whether it's a group chat, whether it's 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:23.739 a texting, whether it's a voicemail, an email, 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.019 whether it's an email with a video, whatever, 00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:29.980 you can figure all of this out as soon as you 00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:32.800 figure out your customer base. Now you may have 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:37.179 extra people within that, but you have that customer 00:38:37.179 --> 00:38:39.079 base and that's how you deal with them. So yes, 00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:42.639 I agree. And I have to remember that every day 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:46.119 because really what you were talking about was. 00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:49.670 When I do a workshop, I have to keep it interactive 00:38:49.670 --> 00:38:52.929 and I have to keep it up to where they will all 00:38:52.929 --> 00:38:56.670 stay interested. And if I'm talking to a bunch 00:38:56.670 --> 00:39:00.289 of Gen Z or to a bunch of boomers, it's two completely 00:39:00.289 --> 00:39:03.389 different workshops. Same information, but it's 00:39:03.389 --> 00:39:06.489 completely different. All right. So let's bring 00:39:06.489 --> 00:39:09.909 this podcast full circle. If someone listening 00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:13.289 wants to grow their influence at work, starting 00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:17.420 today. What's the first simple action that they 00:39:17.420 --> 00:39:21.239 should take? I'll just say two things here. First 00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:25.619 and foremost, a leader becomes a true leader 00:39:25.619 --> 00:39:29.670 and revines himself or herself by... becoming 00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:32.650 more and more self -aware. And this sounds very 00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:35.929 simplistic, but I think as we see the outside 00:39:35.929 --> 00:39:38.989 context changing, the inside context changing, 00:39:39.090 --> 00:39:41.110 meaning to say that more people of different 00:39:41.110 --> 00:39:44.429 ages are coming together, the external world 00:39:44.429 --> 00:39:46.630 is changing in such a rapid place, like it's 00:39:46.630 --> 00:39:49.650 becoming the perfect storm. And the more we know 00:39:49.650 --> 00:39:52.789 that how and who we are and how do we show up, 00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.179 for our customers, for our suppliers, for our 00:39:56.179 --> 00:39:59.920 people, for our peers. It goes a long way. And 00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:01.980 some of the best leaders that I can think of, 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.559 Michael, who work with global companies like 00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:07.440 Unilever and so on, it's just their ability to 00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.739 be flexible and adaptable. We often use this 00:40:10.739 --> 00:40:13.940 line that those who are coachable are scalable. 00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:17.639 So it isn't about 30 years of experience or 25 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:20.559 years of experience, but it is about, okay. Despite 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:23.219 the 30 -year experience, Chad GPT can make a 00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:25.559 dent into your experience. So can you be flexible 00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.500 enough, humble enough? So I would say that if 00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:31.039 you can invest your time in self -awareness, 00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:35.599 that is one very simple and an ongoing thing 00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:37.460 that one can do. So that's just the one, but 00:40:37.460 --> 00:40:38.940 I'll leave it at that because you asked me for 00:40:38.940 --> 00:40:42.400 one. I think that's very important, the self 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.940 -awareness, because that will open you up to 00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:49.769 listening. to listening, whether it's to your 00:40:49.769 --> 00:40:53.329 manager or supervisor or to your peers, right? 00:40:53.389 --> 00:40:55.989 If you open yourself up, then you will actually 00:40:55.989 --> 00:41:00.530 gain more information. This was great. This was 00:41:00.530 --> 00:41:04.170 packed with insights. The kind people replay 00:41:04.170 --> 00:41:07.449 because it hit home. If you're listening and 00:41:07.449 --> 00:41:10.469 thinking, I can use that at work tomorrow, then 00:41:10.469 --> 00:41:13.760 you're already ahead. To our guests, thank you 00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:16.239 for sharing your experience and your approach 00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.960 to leading people with clarity and purpose. And 00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:23.079 to everyone tuning in, pick one idea from today 00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:27.139 and put it to use in your next interaction. Growth 00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:30.599 doesn't come from knowing it. It comes from doing 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:33.699 it. Until next time, keep building relationships 00:41:33.699 --> 00:41:37.050 that matter. Keep learning from every conversation 00:41:37.050 --> 00:41:40.030 and keep turning knowledge into real progress. 00:41:40.329 --> 00:41:44.289 I can't begin to thank you enough. But Nikhil, 00:41:44.329 --> 00:41:47.989 if somebody wanted to get hold of you, if somebody 00:41:47.989 --> 00:41:52.130 wanted your knowledge or to be coached or a workshop, 00:41:52.449 --> 00:41:55.760 how would they do it? Thank you, Michael. It's 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.840 been a real pleasure. I've really enjoyed it. 00:41:57.920 --> 00:41:59.659 I think we've talked about a few things which 00:41:59.659 --> 00:42:02.199 I think are relevant for every one of us, including 00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:04.840 us in our own profession, which is that how we 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:07.780 look at the changing workplace, the worker, and 00:42:07.780 --> 00:42:10.380 the work itself. I think the easiest way for 00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:12.460 people to get in touch is, I would say, LinkedIn. 00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:15.719 It's today the most commonly used platform for 00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:18.039 professionals. Look me up on LinkedIn and you'll 00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:20.300 find all the other details. I have my website 00:42:20.300 --> 00:42:22.960 details there. I have a YouTube channel, of course, 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:25.440 which gives you the the videos of the podcast. 00:42:25.659 --> 00:42:27.659 And the podcast is called Working with Gen Z, 00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.579 which is again available on the most popular 00:42:30.579 --> 00:42:33.099 platforms as well. Look me up, LinkedIn, and 00:42:33.099 --> 00:42:35.260 that should become your one source to kind of 00:42:35.260 --> 00:42:38.400 find the other ways to look me up. Thank you. 00:42:38.420 --> 00:42:40.739 Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:44.659 I'm sure that all my listeners took something 00:42:44.659 --> 00:42:47.679 from what we were discussing and they'll use 00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.619 it. Thank you again. Thank you, Michael. Have 00:42:50.619 --> 00:42:56.739 a good one. Well, hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere. 00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:00.460 Let's hear from our sponsors. David Neal, co 00:43:00.460 --> 00:43:04.039 -founder Revved Up Kids. Revved Up Kids is on 00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:07.019 a mission to protect children and teens from 00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:10.000 sexual abuse, exploitation, and trafficking. 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:13.460 They provide prevention training programs for 00:43:13.460 --> 00:43:17.000 children, teens, and adults. To learn more, go 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:21.380 to revvedupkids .org. Henry Kaplan, Century 21. 00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:24.119 When it comes to making the biggest financial 00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:27.099 decision of your life, leave it in the hands 00:43:27.099 --> 00:43:30.380 of a proven professional, Henry Kaplan. Henry 00:43:30.380 --> 00:43:33.579 is a global real estate agent with Century 21, 00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:37.739 celebrating his 41st year in business. No matter 00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:40.440 where you're moving, Henry has the right connections 00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:47.420 for you. You can contact Henry at 561 -427 -4888. 00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:50.900 A huge thank you to our guests for sharing such 00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:54.079 information. insights today. And of course, a 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:56.780 big shout out to you, our amazing listeners, 00:43:57.019 --> 00:43:59.719 for tuning in and spending your time with us. 00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:03.280 If you're interested in my digital courses, being 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:06.000 coached or having me come and talk to your company, 00:44:06.260 --> 00:44:09.659 just go to Michael and fill out the request form. 00:44:10.179 --> 00:44:13.500 Remember, networking isn't about being perfect. 00:44:13.699 --> 00:44:16.780 It's about being present. So take what you've 00:44:16.780 --> 00:44:19.619 learned today, get out there and make some meaningful 00:44:19.619 --> 00:44:22.570 connections. If you've enjoyed this episode, 00:44:22.769 --> 00:44:25.730 please don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a 00:44:25.730 --> 00:44:28.329 review and share it with someone who could use 00:44:28.329 --> 00:44:31.449 a little networking inspiration. Let's keep the 00:44:31.449 --> 00:44:34.469 conversation going. You can find me on Apple, 00:44:34.590 --> 00:44:39.429 Spotify, Pandora, YouTube, or my website, foreman 00:44:39.429 --> 00:44:41.829 .com slash podcasts.