Welcome back to Networking Unleashed, Building
Profitable Connections. I'm your host, Michael
Foreman, and today we're diving deep into one
of the most overlooked truths in business networking.
You can't connect profitably if you can't connect
authentically. In a world of constant noise,
digital distractions, and AI generated everything,
how do we keep our humanity front and center?
How do we actually listen, not just hear, to
people who are trying to build relationships
with? My guest today has built his work around
identity, authenticity, and empathy, the real
foundations of connection. If you've ever felt
like networking has become the mechanical or
shallow, this conversation is your reset button.
So buckle up, buttercup. This one's about stripping
away the filters, turning it to what matters,
and rediscovering what it means to truly connect.
I would like to introduce my guest today to my
wonderful podcast, Andrew Hinkleman, and he is
a professional in everything I just said. Andrew,
welcome to the podcast, and why don't you give
us a little bit about your background? Thank
you, Michael. Really appreciate you having me.
I am honored to be here, and I would love to
make sure to impart a few tips and tricks along
the way. But first, my background. I came up
through IT organizations, driving technical teams,
went to school at University of Washington out
here in Seattle, and did my engineering degree
and master's degree there. I wound up at Microsoft
for a while and for a long time, that was, that's
a tradition here. It's become Amazon lately,
but it used to be a tradition to at least do
a little bit of time at Microsoft. Done a lot
of consulting work. I found myself a little bit
at a transition, wondering what was next for
me. I got into more and more technical roles
along the way, more leadership roles, and eventually
landed at a financial services company where
I worked my way into a chief technology officer
role. This was a global asset manager. offices
in London, Singapore, Sydney, and had about 150
people in my organization at the time, and really
found that it was the people along the way, watching
people develop, helping people develop, and really
getting them to the point where they were able
to blossom and shine in their careers. And those
were the things that really moved me, not all
the meetings and the IT governance. and the bureaucracy
and all those kinds of things. Wound up burning
out, getting really tired of the routine and
went into an executive coaching program. So today
I'm six years into building my executive coaching
business. I primarily work with tech CEOs, chief
technology officers, a lot of very senior leaders
and founders. on building their human skills.
And by that, how do they relate to people? How
do they really, truly connect with others? Sounds
great. That's quite an extensive background.
Okay. So listen, I've developed about 10 questions
and I'm going to hit you with them. If we go
off script a little bit, that's all right. Feel
free. This is just a conversation between you
and me. Great. In a world where everyone is curating
their online identity, how can professionals
reconnect with who they really are and lead with
authenticity when networking? It's a great question.
With all of the AI written posts and everything,
it's funny. Here now, people purposely putting
in... spelling mistakes and misspellings. The
big giveaway for a while was like the em dash.
That was the thing that everyone joked around,
right? And now people are purposely putting in
mistakes. And I think that's a little window
into who we are as humans, right? We're not this
perfect political presentation of a human being.
And the people that are that way. We don't connect
with, right? We don't feel a warmth. We don't
feel like they know us so that we can get to
know them. So I really feel like one of the keys
here is allowing yourself to make mistakes and
being okay with it. But you really have to get
to that point yourself where you don't feel like
you always have to be on or you always have to
be super professional. People like them. So it's
an amazing concept. They're not looking for you
to be perfect. That's so true. And I'm all about
networking communication. I have networking groups.
I coach people on networking. I go and I do workshops
for people. And one thing I'm always trying to
have them do, and that's be their authentic self.
Don't be afraid to make a mistake. If you make
a mistake, own it. Own it, laugh about it, move
on. Because everybody does it. Everybody makes
me laugh. You don't want to be as professional.
This is who I am. But you want to be, because
you're more personable. When you're more personable,
that wall between you and your supposed client
is coming down, right? And that level of trust
is increasing. So it just makes a better conversation.
A stronger connection, for sure. Good, good.
What's getting in the way of people forming real
connections today? Is it fear? Is it fear of
rejection, digital noise, or simply forgetting
how to be human? I want to suggest something
that for a lot of us, especially in business
organizations, the corporate world, a lot of
us were not very good. at connecting with people,
being ourselves. A lot of it was, hey, we go
to college and we learn something and we're trying
to fit in and we think we want to be this person
or this role. And then there's a lot of learning
and a lot of people are just uncomfortable around
people and maybe they don't learn that along
the way. They don't learn how to better connect
with people. And then we introduce a lot of distraction.
So in a lot of ways, the past, say, 10, 15 years
have been a huge experiment with phones and social
media and everything. So now you have a lot of
people who wanted to be something when they went
to college. They maybe didn't learn human skills
or how to relate to people along the way. And
now you introduce this whole world of digital
distraction. and alerts and notifications. And
we're all, even those of us, even people like
me who think I don't do that, I do it. We all
do it. We're all swimming in the pool. And I
think that becomes a real problem for people
because they didn't have a baseline set of skills
and now they're constantly not present in the
moment. And if you're not present in the moment
and paying attention, you're never going to connect
with other people. I can't agree with you more.
Everything you just said is so impactful of the
person just getting out and saying, who am I?
Who are you? What is everything? Because there's
so much. Listen, I was in the Air Force. I was
a police officer. I went through basic training.
I went through the police academy. I went through
something called air -based ground defense. They
taught me everything how to be a cop. And when
I got to my first duty station, the sergeant
looked at me and said, okay, you went through
everything? Yes. Forget it. Because now we're
going to teach you. And that's where my true
teaching began. It's something to be taught in
school. But I think that's missing now in high
schools and colleges, how to conduct yourself
with another person. That's being your authentic
self, being good to be able to connect with them.
Don't just go and party and everything else.
You have to really learn how to, because in today's
environment, when you leave school and everything,
you're like faced with all of this. Oh yeah.
And then what do you, then what do you do? And
I digress. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And one thing
I'll add there, Michael, is that there are people
who get this, what you and I are talking about.
It's not everyone staring at their phone when
they feel awkward in a group of people. There
are people who get it and they are doing it.
And they're the ones that are making meaningful
connections. They're the ones that don't have
to upload their resume to a bunch of companies
when they want to change jobs because people
know them and like them and trust them. Absolutely.
Absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself.
You're doing great. Okay. So let's do a little
bit listening and hearing and active listening.
You talk about the difference between listening
and active listening. How do you define the difference
in today's distraction? A lot of times we think
we're listening and there's this line that was
made famous in Pulp Fiction about whether you're
listening or waiting to talk. Exactly. Most of
us are waiting to talk. Real active listening
is where you're both in the content of the conversation,
but you're also in what might be called metacommunication,
metacognition. why is this story coming up and
why is it coming up now? What's the story behind
the story? Is this person sharing something with
me because they feel uncomfortable about it,
something they're processing, or are they trying
to get me to buy something or think that they're
really impressive? And so I think active listening
is, it's not just body language or just the words
that are being exchanged it's everything and
you can't do that unless you're truly in the
moment and truly present and 90 % of what we
experience just going through our days going
to the grocery store takes us out of that like
when's the last time you were standing in line
at the grocery store Just looking around and
able to smile at the person behind you. It's
almost unheard of. And so I think the real answer
there is, you know, listening is a great step,
but I would say active listening is really more
about the whole three -dimensional experience
of being in the company of another person. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And you brought up two very solid
points. One is your active listening with the
other person that you're sitting down with. And
a little trick of mine when I active listen,
because I never think about the next thing that
I want to say. I'm concentrating on what they're
saying. So I repeat some of it back to them.
So in other words, I understand that you want.
this, or I understand that you're talking about
this, and you go and repeat some of it. And you
continue on with it. So that shows them that
you're listening to what they're saying. So it's
very important. But I also because networking
is such a broad and generic field that I tell
people when they're online to grocery store,
online at a department store. Look around. The
person behind you may talk about mortgages, right?
And I used to be in the mortgage field. So if
you have something intelligent to say it and
turn back around, if they're interested, then
they'll tap you on the shoulder and say, excuse
me, but could you explain a bit more about that?
It's just, and you're all of a sudden, now you're
getting the recognition of everybody around you
and everybody's listening. So it's amazing the
type of networking you can accomplish. One thing
I'll add to that, Michael, which I absolutely
love, is that what we're really talking about
here is practicing. Practice at the grocery store.
Practice at Starbucks. Practice when you bump
into your neighbor getting the mail. These are
little moments that add up. If you feel overwhelmed
when you go to a conference and you're expected
to spend that first hour networking, or what
about when lunch gets served? Now that's big
time, right? If you don't know anyone and you
have to find someone to eat with and you don't
want to eat alone, it could be a lot of pressure,
right? Absolutely. Start small, right? Do your
reps. Get comfortable with it in like your everyday
places and then it'll be much easier later on.
I tell everybody it takes three things to get
good at networking as a whole. Practice and practice.
Practice yourself. Practice in front of a mirror.
Practice at the department store. Practice at
the grocery store. Practice because the more
reps you get in, the more comfortable you will
be talking to anybody else. So remember those
three things. Practice. It's what we all need.
Yes, we do. Okay. As technology takes over more
human touch points, where does empathy fit into
the networking equation? And how do we keep it
from being replaced by convenience? Interesting
question, Michael. First, I want to make sure
that we talk a little bit about. what we mean
by empathy because i hear this a lot that empathy
is a word that can confuse a lot of people and
maybe we can broaden it a little bit and say
caring about another person or caring about their
experience or even acknowledging that they have
a different experience than you That's a little
bit of, in psychology, they call it a theory
of mind. The ability to understand that someone
else is going through something that is different
from you and maybe just as or more important
or critical in their life as what you're going
through. So caring about the experience that
someone else is having, I think, is your avenue
into making real connection because people like
people that are interested in them. It's the
old how to win friends and influence people,
right? It's when I'm curious about you and I
ask you questions about you and I'm listening.
And if it's in a genuine way where I do affirm
your experience and I say things back to you
and I give you some indications that I'm paying
attention. you're going to come away feeling
like we've made a connection. And one of the
things too that I want to come back to is this
distraction and busyness and all that. And for
a lot of people, they feel like it's work. Like
I have to be on, I have to be available, I have
to answer emails at night and stuff like that.
I want to suggest that we all need to fight back
a little bit. We need to reclaim. A bit of our
own ability to just calm ourselves down and be
present. And there, again, we talked about practice.
There are a lot of small ways. Turn the notifications
off of your phone, right? Are you getting pop
-ups on every single email that comes up on your
desktop or your laptop? Pretty sure you don't
need that because you're going to look at your
email anyway. And if you're not, you're doing
that. Hopefully you're doing valuable work and
you shouldn't be distracted by that. So my point
here really is that just the way that we practice
having conversations with people in the grocery
store, in line at Starbucks, practice reducing
the noise and you can reclaim a bit of your own
attention so that it's easier when you are interacting
with other people. Absolutely. Absolutely. And
that brings me to a point where whenever I network
or I'm teaching people how to network, I say,
go there with a servant's heart. Go there thinking,
what can I do for them and not for me? Because
what that does is that releases. all of the tension,
everything off my shoulders. It's no longer a
problem. So if I'm going there and I'm saying,
okay, Andrew, you're talking to me or everything,
I bring in something called F -O -R -M, family,
occupation, recreation, and there's a message.
So I try to pick out one of those things and
have you talk about it. Family, that's easy because
everybody loves to talk about themselves or their
family or their kids or their grandchildren.
If they talk about youth sports, I'm in like
Flint because I was a coach, I was a mentor,
I was everything. And then it moves to occupation
and they start talking about what they do and
how they do it and everything else. And I stop
them and I say, you know something, Andrew, I
like you. I like the way you do business. can
I make you more successful? How can I be a good
referral source for you? And if I did my job
correctly, you say, Mike, I don't even know what
the hell you do yet. You know, and that's perfect.
And the follow -up is a whole nother conversation
that starts the whole thing because that shows
them that I'm very interested in helping them
and not just selling something. Yeah. And like
you said, it takes the pressure off. I don't
need to show up at this event and sell my thing.
I don't need to find five amazing clients or
anything. All I have to do is be curious. That's
it. And connect. You connect. Listen, I told
you I was in a mortgage company, mortgage firm,
big bank. I was high up. And I used to go to
a networking event. And I used to come home with
a shoebox. filled with business cards. I said,
look how good I did. Did I do that well? No,
I didn't, right? So now when I teach people,
if they go to a three or four hour event, you
come home with 15, maybe 20 business cards, right?
Because that means that you made a connection
to all of those people. And then you follow up
accordingly. But it's such a difference. I went
to the School of Hard Knocks. I learned how to
do everything wrong. Before I did it correctly.
But now I hope I think I'm doing it correctly.
Because I'm teaching people. And I hope I'm teaching
them the correct way. Okay. So everyone says
just be authentic. But does authentic mean we've
been constantly adapting to fit different professional
circles? Incredible question. And let's just
let's call it like it is. I think as you're especially
if you're working in a corporate environment,
working for a company, there is a bit of that.
There's a bit of am I fitting in? Am I understanding
what the rules of engagement are? Do I am I tuning
into the culture of the company, the subculture,
the way real decisions are getting made? There's
a little bit of that. If everyone dresses in
business casual and jeans on Friday, it would
be in your best interest to probably do the same.
Even if you're a sweatpants, you know, the way
people go to the airport, right? They get on
planes, right? Even if you're one of those people.
So authenticity doesn't mean, hey, I'm a cranky
jerk and everyone just has to love me the way
I am. That's not authenticity. Authenticity,
the way we should think about authenticity is
really that you have opinions and you have ideas
and you're able to talk about yourself in a way
that is. both affirming and also encourages input
from others. You're not inflicting yourself on
others. You're encouraging people to engage with
you. I went through a lot of this myself as trying
to be this sort of corporate executive and fit
in a financial services company where at the
start, it was like everyone was in suits all
the time. And that was as far away from my world
as I could ever get. And you got to just figure
out the stuff that doesn't matter and use genuine
one -on -one conversations to get to know people
and build strong connections with people. That's
perfect. I couldn't have said it better myself
because it's not a matter of you trying to fit
in. You're trying to make yourself, well, fit
in, but have everybody else acknowledge the fact.
What am I trying to say? That you are part of
the group. That's called the group. And you want
to be a part of the group. You don't want to
speak at people. You want to speak to people
and have them respond to you. And it's how you
respond to the responses that help you fit in.
Right. Yes. And fighting against things that
don't really matter too much. is really just
going to set you off to the side. The things
that matter are speaking what you feel like is
truth. And sometimes you suffer the consequences
of it, but a lot of times honoring your own ideas,
that builds real authenticity. Yes, I couldn't
agree more. Okay, so we're surrounded by constant
noise, content, opinions, updates, notifications,
as you said before. How do you personally cut
through that and stay connected to people who
matter most? It's a great question, Michael.
For me, staying connected with people takes effort.
I'm not going to tell you that I call my mom
every day, okay? It does take effort. And I'm,
I'm as, I like to say that I'm a lot more present
or I can be present in situations. And I think
that's probably true a lot of time, but in a
lot of ways, I'm swimming in the pool with everyone
else. I'm distracted too. So, you know what?
Sometimes I put it on my calendar. Call dad.
My son has been in the Bay Area for a long time
now, and we used to purposely have a biweekly
meeting where we would just chat. And it was
great for his schedule. He was super busy. It
was great for my schedule. There's nothing wrong
with that. What you don't want is to be walking
around feeling bad that you haven't reached out
to people or talked to people. And sometimes,
to be fair to ourselves, sometimes we just forget
or we're just not in the mood. You go out, you
take your garbage cans out to the curb, your
neighbors are there chatting, you're like, head
down, pull the baseball cap down. Not available,
right? It's okay. Absolutely. Give yourself a
break. Yep, yep. You can do that. You can just
say, I don't want. any of that now because I'm
just not in the mood. However, sometimes you
have to open yourself up to that. You have to
look out the window and see your neighbors talking.
You'll not take the garbage out for 10 minutes
because that means that both disperse. But otherwise,
you take them out now and you go out and say,
hey, what's going on? And talk with them. So
you make that decision, but don't be pressured
into... going out, being open and talking to
everybody because we're not built like that.
We need our alone time, but we don't want to
take that too far. Okay. So as AI starts to handle
more of our communication, emails, social posts,
even introductions, where do you think human
connection still has an irreplaceable edge? I
think what we're going to find, and maybe this
is happening now, is that there is some sort
of surface level interaction going on with AI.
And you see it, I see it on LinkedIn. It's so
incredible what has happened on LinkedIn in the
past five years, maybe eight years now. But I
don't want to wax too philosophically about LinkedIn,
but that's, it's a... fascinating thing to watch.
And so you're right, AI, content creators, people
managing your social media for you, all those
things are happening. But I think, for one thing,
the really generic stuff is never going to get
picked up on. It's the posts or the interactions
that actually have some meaning behind them,
some genuine opinions. I think as humans, we're
good. We're good at that. And we can tap into
a million years of trying to figure out if that's
a tiger or whether it's just the wind blowing
outside the cave. We're pretty smart when it
comes to whether we're talking to a stereotypical
used car salesman or an ex -girlfriend or ex
-boyfriend, right? We can tell. So I think. At
the heart of your question really is like, where
does this lead? And I think we're in a world
where all the surface interactions are probably
going to be formulated. They're going to be mechanical.
And the people that are able to break through
that, have a real message, have a genuine message,
be of service, to your point earlier, are going
to break through it. And really beyond that,
I don't want to talk to an AI. Like, I want to
talk to a real human who has lived experience
and is willing to share the ups and downs of
their life with me. I think the humanity is going
to actually become more and more important the
more that there's going to be a subset of our
sort of co -workers in the world that are okay
with AI. I think the success and the fruits are
going to be with the people that are willing
to break through it. Yeah, that's one thing that
I try to keep in mind. And another thing that
I coach people about is that this Zoom call is
going all the time. But you have to remember
one thing. There's a person on the other end
of that call. Right? It's not AI generated. It's
not anything. You're talking to him one -on -one.
So you have to think about the person who is
behind the Zoom call, not just a Zoom call. So
listen, if you can meet them one -on -one in
a coffee shop or whatever else, that's terrific.
But if you can't and you're talking to them over
Zoom, you have to remember there are people too.
They're a person. And that's one thing that I
tried to coach with. Okay. So can you recall
a moment when you realized you weren't showing
up as your true self in a professional setting
and what changed after that? There's been a lot
of moments like that. And I mentioned having
this executive role in a financial services company.
And for me, I'm a little bit more of I want to
go dig in the dirt. I like to be on a mountain
bike. I like to be outside. I have a couple apple
trees. I like to be outside. And I always felt
a little bit like, hey, I have to play a little
bit of this game here and fit in. Because I've
invested 20 years into my career and a bachelor's
degree and a master's degree and cybersecurity
certifications and IT trainings and all that
kind of stuff. And it can feel like a machine
that you're at the front of, but you're not necessarily
like really steering. And there have been plenty
of moments where I felt like I am getting into
something that I don't care too much about. And
one of the big moments in my career was burning
out really badly. And I didn't even know that
I was in burnout. People seven, eight years ago
would say things like burnout. And it was just
like, oh, take the weekend off. And rub some
dirt in it, by the way. And real burnout is elusive
because suddenly you start to care a lot less.
And when you used to reply to your boss's email
within 10 or 15 minutes, suddenly you're going
like a day and you're caring less and less. And
the thing that changed for me was that I knew
I had to make a change. And that was one of the
big catalysts for me. for doing the work. What
do I want? What do I want to do with my life?
Where do I want to be in five years? What are
the big, what would be fulfilling for me as I
go into the next phase of my career? And it really
drove me to start my coaching business. Wow.
That's good. That's great. We all have that.
We've all come from corporate. We all began our
coaching journey. And we've also felt that bit
of burnout when you're used to answering those
emails almost on the spot saying, oh yeah, I'll
be right there or whatever else. And it starts
taking you longer and longer. If you can self
-realize what's going on, you'll make that decision
either to time to change ships or let me just
figure out something and continue on my way.
So you have to make that distinct decision. Okay.
If someone asked your closest friends or colleagues,
what makes you a great listener? What would they
say? And what do you hope that they'd notice?
I think that they would say that I ask a lot
of questions. And that's probably not surprising
since I'm an executive and leadership coach.
But in third grade, I won an award for most inquisitive.
So I haven't changed that much in that respect
over time. So I like to know a lot about people.
Like, I want to know, like, where in Georgia
are you? I've been there. I have family there.
Maybe you live near them. I'd love to hear about
the military. I have 50 questions about you,
Michael, that I haven't asked because I'm super
curious about people. So I think it's the question
part. But actually, the second part of your question
is, what would I want them to take away? And
I think it would be the presence. I want to be
in conversation with someone where even if I
don't say a word, they can feel that I'm there.
I'm not wondering what's for lunch. I'm not wondering
like why my phone is buzzing in my pocket. I'm
actually there with them human to human and that
it's important to me. What you just said, it
should resonate so much with each person, but
having the phone in your pocket, that takes away
the majority of your distractions when you're
with a person. Right. That's one of the first
things that I coach. Put the phone away, turn
it off, turn the buzzer off, turn everything
off and just be with the person. So by you doing
that instinctively and you being present with
the person that you're speaking to, how else
would they describe you? They would say, no,
Andrew listens to me. Nobody listens to me. Andrew
does. He gets me. And that is probably the most
important thing that I think that anybody would
say about me is that he gets me. So that goes
on from there. So let's bring this podcast full
circle. Looking ahead five to 10 years as technology
evolves and attention spans shrink, what will
authentic connection look like and what habits
should we be building now to prepare for it?
Incredible question. I'm going to approach that
with some of the themes that we've been talking
about. So I've coached people at a lot of different
companies and not just engineers, a lot of engineers,
a lot of very senior engineers, which is a direct
connection back to my corporate background in
engineering. But I want people to understand
that it's highly likely that the person you're
interacting with is incredibly lonely and anxious.
The pandemic did a lot of things, and we could
argue the pluses and minuses of the pandemic.
But one thing about a lot of people is that they
got used to being by themselves, being at home.
And like remote work, it's not a great fit for
a lot of people. People complain about this return
to the office stuff, right? That seems really
heavy handed. But on the other hand, working
from home alone, day in, day out is not real
healthy for a lot of people. So I think you have
to assume that the person in front of you is
incredibly lonely and incredibly anxious. Because
the speed of our world, our devices, our notifications,
things are speeding up the way that we process
things in our minds. Wouldn't it be amazing to
be the person, even if it's for five minutes,
that could actually listen to that person? And
almost be the one, maybe the one person in the
week or the month that is actually there in that
moment, looks them in the eye. It smiles, affirms
what they're saying, says it back to them, connects.
Like, you could probably change someone's day
with just being present, looking them in the
eye, nodding and smiling in a genuine way. And
the speediness, the AI, the technology, that's
not going away. There's too much money in it,
right? It's not going away. But we're definitely
in a situation where we can be the person that
provides a little moment of peace and connection
to someone else. That's great. That's perfect.
That's a perfect answer to the question. Andrew,
this was a great podcast. I thank you so much
for coming on. If somebody wanted to get hold
of you, either just to ask you a question or
to ask you about coaching, where can they reach
you? Yeah, great place to reach me is on LinkedIn.
You can find me. It's just Andrew Hinkelman.
And one thing that I'll say is I do a lot of.
what I might call pro bono coaching. If someone
wants to just see what coaching is, I take an
hour with tons of people week to week just to
do a real conversation, not unlike the conversation
that we're having right now. It's just what's
going on. What are you working on? Where's the
friction? That's something that I do with people
frequently. We just take an hour and you can
get a feel for what a real coaching session is
like. So that's something that I'd offer to any
of your audience. On my LinkedIn, there is a
link to book time with me. That's a great way
to connect. Great, Andrew. Thank you so much.
And I hope people will take you up on it and
they will all contact you soon. Absolutely. Thank
you, Michael. Appreciate it. Well, hold on, folks.
Don't go anywhere. Let's hear from our sponsors.
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We're out, folks. A huge thank you to our guests
for sharing such incredible insights today. And
of course, a big shout out to you, our amazing
listeners, for tuning in and spending your time
with us. If you're interested in my digital courses,
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being perfect. It's about being present. So take
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