Do you ever notice how the smallest conversation
can change the shape of your life if you know
what to listen for? Welcome to Networking Unleashed,
building profitable connections. I'm Michael
Foreman. On this show, we don't collect business
cards. We learn to start conversations that matter,
create trust that lasts, and turn human moments
into measurable value. Today's episode peels
back the mechanics of real connection. Not tricks,
not scripts, but the mindset that moves you and
lets you influence, serve and grow without sounding
like a salesperson. If you want fewer awkward
small talk sessions and more conversations that
open doors, you're in the right place. Stay curious,
take one idea, use it today and watch what happens
tomorrow. I'd like to welcome to the podcast
Grace Gavin. She has a remarkable background,
but I'll let her tell you her background. Grace,
welcome to the podcast. Michael, thanks so much
for having me. I'm excited for whatever conversation
we get into today. Good. So give us a little
bit about your background. Yeah, so I am the
co -founder and co -author of a book and company
by the same name, No Honesty. And for those who
are listening, that's K -N -O -W, not N -O, but
a little bit of play on words there. And what
we really focus on as an organization is changing
how the world communicates one conversation at
a time. And I think that really plays into what
we're going to talk about here today, especially
when it comes to networking and having those
conversations. helping people master communication.
And how I got into that is I got a business education
very young in my life. I grew up in a family
business. Half our kitchen table was the accounting
department. The door you walked into in the house
was also the office. So I would walk in and my
dad would be having business conversations with
our insurance broker or our seed salesman, things
like that, or with employees. We had a family
-owned dairy farm. Got an education very young
in the importance of business and networking
and all of those pieces. And then from there,
years later in my professional life, I partnered
with a gentleman who's now co -author with me
on the book, founder of the business. His name
is Ken Bogard, but we were helping teams at the
time implement EOS. And what we found, if anybody's
familiar with EOS, it's the entrepreneur operating
system. And it's this proven system for running
your business on. But what we kept finding over
and over again is that teams would work to implement
this proven system, thousands upon tens of thousands
of businesses running on it. But they would still
really struggle and it would be difficult to
implement this system. Things wouldn't move nearly
as quickly. And we just were like, OK, what's
going on here? What's happening? And what really
it came down to, what we found, it was the team's
ability or in this case, inability to communicate.
And that was the foundation of every issue. And
so looking at that, we said, all right, we got
to help leaders develop the skill. communication.
Because a lot of times we think that because
we as human beings can talk, we have words that
we use, that we can communicate. But it's really
a skill to be developed, especially if you want
to be a high performing individual or high performing
team. Which leads us into the work that I do
today, working with teams to master communication.
And we do that through simple, tangible, and
implementable practices. Maybe we'll get into
that a little bit here today, but that's the
long and short of my background, Michael. It
sounds very apropos to what we're talking about
today. I do workshops, I do conferences, I go
into big businesses, and I teach networking and
communication, but... I coach the C -suite executives
about the communication because everything rolls
downhill. So if I teach just the people who are
doing the job one thing, but I leave the C -suite
executives alone, then they're just going to
do the same thing they've always done and they're
not going to go anywhere. So that's just what
I do also. Okay, so let's jump into the first
question. What first taught you that connection?
not selling or strategy, is the real -time engine
behind your success, and can you share one moment
that the idea changed everything for you? Yeah,
one moment. I think when I first started years
ago, Michael, in my professional career, I started
out going to networking events, and it was part
of my job. And I had never really been to networking
events prior to that. I was new in the professional
world. And so I showed up to these events and
what I saw and what I thought I had to be was
this perfect version of a business person. And
I say that in quotes. There wasn't any. I certainly
didn't talk to you before I was there. And so
I just thought, okay, I guess this is what we
do. We wear the uncomfortable blazers and the
uncomfortable shoes and we have the boring conversation
that you know how it goes. How are you? Good.
How are you? Good. What do you do? It was terrible.
And I just, I didn't love them and I didn't look
forward to them, but I had to go to them as part
of my job. And so what I noticed was happening
is that I would see a networking event on my
calendar and I would get this feeling of dread.
Oh, I do not want to go to this. And I would
show up just in time for it starting. Some events
have like pre -event networking. I was not there,
not interested in that by any means. And then
I was out of there as soon as it was done, because
what I found is that it was exhausting for me.
It was exhausting my energy. And I never really
made any great business connections coming out
of that. And so I was like, okay, I identify
as a problem solver. And I thought, this is a
problem. This is something that I know I'm going
to continue to do in my career, most likely.
This isn't working. It's draining my energy.
I'm not making any good business or any kind
of connections coming out of it. So what's going
on here? And this is actually one of the practices
that I talk about and teach with my leaders.
But what was happening for me in these networking
events is I was showing up as fake you. So fake
you is one of our practices. And that's what
was happening that whole time. I'm not a perfect
version of a business person. I can tell you
that for certain, but I can also tell you that
because it doesn't exist. There's no such thing
as perfection. But I wasn't in conversations
that I was interested in. I wasn't making genuine
connections with people. And so, of course, there
wasn't that trust. There wasn't the connection
that needed to happen for people to really trust
me and to do business with me. So I was like,
okay. That was the aha. That's what was going
on. And so I started to shift in the way that
I showed up still in my professional attire,
but I showed up in clothing that was comfortable,
that I felt like I didn't have to think about
what I was wearing. I started to ask questions
about, okay, how did you get into this industry?
Or what is it that drives you to do this work?
Let them ask questions of me back in that way.
And in that way, I could tell a full story. of
the business that I was doing and not just a,
here's what I do in a robot type of sense. And
that, Michael, changed everything. Because not
only was I making those real connections, but
I was also enjoying myself. I was showing up
with a much, I feel, lighter air. And people
are more attracted to that. And they want to
have conversations with individuals like that.
Not the same tired, how are you? Good, good.
What do you do? Nobody wants to do that, but
we all default to it for some reason. That's...
in a nutshell, what I would say to that. What
you finally got to is your authenticity, your
authentic self. And the way that you handle networking
events or networking as a whole, you don't go
in there with business in mind. It's contrary
to popular belief. But you go in there with a
servant's heart. You go in there speaking to
the other people about how you can solve. their
problem. Without you even saying what you are
doing there, what your business is, you have,
and I use something called FORM, family, occupation,
recreation, and a message. And you pick any one
of the above because everybody loves to talk
about themselves. And when you get the other
person to talk about themselves, you're taking
all the pressure off yourself. You can be your
authentic self and you listen to them. The father,
mother, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, son, daughter,
whatever. Or what do you like to do? You like
to go skiing? Oh, so do I. Like to go boating?
Oh, that's great. Like to play baseball? So do
I. Football? Yeah, so do I. Get somewhere on
the same playing field and then talk about it.
You shouldn't, whatever meeting you have, you
shouldn't talk business for the first 10 minutes.
It should be completely different. And that just
takes all the pressure off your shoulders. You
enjoy the networking events. When I go, I'm the
first one there and I'm the last one to leave
because I'm enjoying myself so much that I'm
talking to everybody. And we'll get into that
later on. Okay, so you often say real connection.
How do you define it? And how can someone tell
if they're creating it? Or faking it. Yeah. So
real, right? What we talk about is that connection,
the communication, really how we create connections
through communication as human beings. And so
what I emphasize with clients is it's not just
communication for communication's sake. Because
if a leader thinks about their... We know that
they spend about 88 % of their weeks communicating.
And so it's not just let's add more communication
for communication's sake, but we want it to be
real. We want it to be the conversations that
change, that move the needle, that make a difference.
And so, Michael, what we really found in our
research when we were looking at, all right,
communication is a skill that leaders need. This
is how do we help them develop that? What we
really found within there was it's two foundational
skills of communication. And keeping it real
simple, the two skills are open and honest. Now,
a lot of times those two words get squished together
and we take it to just be about ourselves. But
they are two very different words, two very different
skills. And so to get to that real connection,
that real communication, we need both. But we
need to think about them completely separate
of each other. And so honesty as we define it
is being truly and freely yourself, speaking
into what you want and how you feel. So that's
the authenticity piece that we already talked
about, right? People can pick up on that pretty
quickly if you're not being authentic. It's just
something that we can sense as human beings.
But then on the other side of it, the question
becomes, I think it's pretty clear we all want
to be authentic. That's the most ideal state.
We all want to be honest. We all want to say
what we think, how we feel, be truly and freely
ourselves. So then the question for us became,
why doesn't that happen? What is it that holds
us back? Why do we have to talk about? being
honest or being authentic as being the brave
thing or being courageous when it should just,
when it should ideally just be our default. And
so what we really found in the research and what
we were looking at this is that there was a lack
of openness or at least a perceived lack of openness.
And now openness is something that we take and
we we flip what we mean by that. So a lot of
times people will take openness as being an open
book or being transparent. To me, that's still
wrapped up in the honesty side of things. It's
still about me, myself, and I. But if we're going
to have real connection, real communication going
back and forth, what we need on the other side
is the openness as we define it, which is listening
without reservation, putting your needs and wants
on pause for someone else. So we think about
in that networking example that you're talking
about, your need or your want is to have business
come out of it right some type of revenue generation
but how do we really be in service of another
person how do we help them we pause that need
that want for a moment and we really hear what
the other person is saying we're looking for
what do they really need how do i help them how
do i understand them best and in that way when
you have that exchange going on where i'm able
to be 100 honest with you michael you're 100
open to it and i trust that And then back, you're
100 % honest with me because I'm 100 % honest
to it. Man, can we really get some stuff done?
Can we really make a real genuine connection
there? That's the two pieces of it. So simple,
yet so sometimes difficult to do and not talked
about nearly enough, which is why I do what I
do. I think that people try to do it so hard
that they wound up faking it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
I think we're told to listen, but we're not really
taught how to listen. And so that can look like
we're performing the ways of listening, like
doing a lot of head nodding and doing that. Actually,
it's just interrupting somebody and that's performing
the listening versus. actually listening to them,
making that genuine eye contact? Are you really
hearing what they have to say? Are you just waiting
for your next opportunity to speak? Even if that
next opportunity is a question you're going to
ask, that still means that you're thinking about
that question rather than listening to what they're
actually saying. True. And that's actually called
active listening because you need to listen to
the person you're speaking with 100%. nothing
else, and you need to, after they say it, you
recite some of it back to them to say, okay,
so I understand it that you were saying this,
you're in need of that, or whatever the case
may be, to show them that you were listening
by 100%, right? So you can have a true interactive
conversation about whatever the conversation
was, right? So that is active listening. Okay.
So what are the three daily habits or micro routines
you practice that keeps your communication sharp
and authentic? The first one is one of the practices
we teach to clients, which is the agreement.
So it's a simple proven script to start any conversation
that's going to get you to real communication
so much faster. For the audience listening, I
highly recommend you write this next. phrase
down because it's the agreement and it's gold.
I'm going to give it to you in full. So here,
Michael, we're going to do it together. Okay.
You don't have to do anything, but here we go.
Will you agree with me on how we're going to
communicate? I want you to be a hundred percent
honest, meaning I want you to be truly and freely
yourself. speaking into what you want and how
you feel. I promise I'll be 100 % open to it.
I will listen without reservation. I'll put my
needs and wants on pause for you. And in return,
I'll be honest with you and I ask that you be
completely open to it. Sound good? Sounds good.
That's the entire agreement. You use that every
single day, man. your relationships will transform.
I use it with my team. I teach it to all of my
clients. I have them use it. We use it with all
of our third -party vendors within our business
and it has transformed the level of conversation
that we get to have because we get past all the
fluff so much faster and we get down to the root
of the real issue happening. So that's number
one. Number two and number three tie together
a little bit, but I think about these are two
other practices that we teach clients. And I
think about what gets in the way of communication.
And there's a whole list of things that I could
give you, but it's really these two things. And
it is fake you that we already talked about.
When you're projecting that facade, it is getting
in the way of real genuine connection and people
can sense that. And then the other thing is the
wall. And so the wall is the divide we put between
ourselves and others rather than being 100 %
open. So think about when you are not listening
to somebody, what essentially you are doing to
them is you are putting up a giant brick wall
between you and them. And what is going to happen
to your conversation there? So those are two
things that I look out for on a daily basis in
this conversation. Am I being a fake version
of myself? And why is that? What's going on there?
In this conversation, am I putting up the wall?
Do I really not want to hear what this person
has to say? Am I not engaged? Am I not interested?
What's going on there? Why is that happening?
And we're digging into that every single day.
And so those are the three. The agreement, start
your conversation off on the right foot. And
then, which inevitably will happen if we fall
short of 100 % honest or 100 % open. We got to
look at what's going on there. Where's fake you
popping up? Where's the wall popping up? And
so those are the ways that I think about it to
keep it so simple, but in front of me still.
It goes right along with the networking that
you're trying to get everybody to wrap their
head around. And it's very simple. It's the old
saying, know you like you trust you. They'll
do business with you. Everybody will know you.
You're a nice person. Not everybody's going to
like you. That kind of narrows the field down.
But that wall that you were talking about, that
wall is always right in front of the trust. And
as you're speaking with them authentically and
you're having them tell you what they like and
everything else, talking about themselves, that
wall is coming down and that trust factor is
going up. And then you can begin to do business.
and not before. Some people try to put the cart
before the horse, and they walk into a networking
event. Hi, I'm Mike Forman. I do this. I really
don't care. I'm not here for that. And you move
on. But okay. So let's go with listening versus
talking. Most people, listening matters. What
specific listening skill separates average networkers
from exceptional ones? That is a fantastic question.
I think I'm going to go with a personal example
for me, but it goes back to what we were talking
about before. What I find is I get so excited
when I talk to somebody and I ask them so many
questions and they'll say something and I'm like,
oh, I got a question about that, but they're
not done speaking yet. And so now I'm thinking
I got to ask him this question because I'm really
interested in this. And I miss the second half
of everything that they say. And so really exercising
that muscle. I really believe it's a muscle of
pausing that voice in your brain that's constantly
coming up with questions or comments or things
that you could say to really hear what the individual
is saying all the way through. I think the most
powerful thing is a pause. At the end of when
somebody speaks, it doesn't have to be a long
one, like half a second long, but what that really
is your brain fully processing what they had
to say. And then you'll have a great question
after that or a comment or something like that.
Your brain will come up with it, I promise you.
But practicing that skill is something that I
work on actively because otherwise I feel like
I end up brushing them through whatever they
were going to say and they don't actually feel
heard, but I'm trying to help them feel heard.
By asking another question. That's so on point.
This all goes back to the active listening. And
the most important part about the listening is
the pause. And nobody evaluates that pause like
it's something important. But it's probably the
most important part of listening. So you're right
on point with that. Okay. How do you balance
being open? I'm sorry. How do you balance being
open enough to build trust while protecting your
time and energy? The time and energy, man, that
is, I think that is an ongoing evaluation that
I do. And so I think about, for me, it's important
where I show up consistently. So consistency
is an important part of trust for what I do and
what I build with people. But that also means
that sometimes I can show up in spaces multiple
times that aren't a place where I'm adding value
or that is adding value for what I'm looking
for as well. And so I think that's a consistent
practice that I have asking, am I adding value
here? Is the value on the other side making sense?
So I think that is a key part of it. That is
a key part of it. And when you said adding value
to the conversation, to what you're doing, is
whenever somebody perceives you giving value
to the conversation or to what you're doing,
then they'll listen. If they don't perceive you
giving value to it, they turn you off. They'll
say, okay, who's next? So that's very much on
point. I don't keep saying on point. I shouldn't
keep saying on point, but it's on point. The
other thing too, Michael, that I had here, when
we look at, we have an assessment that measures
people's ability to be honest and to be open.
And then we break it down further into your personal
life and your work life. Because sometimes I've
been in networking events where we just got an
overshare, which I think there's a place for
all of it. I think about what hat am I wearing?
Am I wearing my personal hat or am I wearing
my professional hat? And when it comes to that,
what I mean by that is, am I sharing something
that helps going back to value, give value to
the conversation? So for example, if somebody's
sharing that they're going through a difficult
time with an employee because of... XYZ example.
Do I have something that I can share with that
is maybe a little bit deeper than what I would
have shared in the conversation previously, but
it's going to help them through that. And so
I think about how do I continue to add value,
add that trust and share in that professional
setting with what makes sense and helps us advance
forward and helps them in their life too. Yeah.
When you look to give value to something and
don't expect anything in return. That's the key.
You're just giving them an answer to their question.
And you've answered it. You've helped them through
it. They're undoubtedly going to ask you again
or then become a client or something in between.
But that's always the first step is giving value
to what you're doing. Yeah. All right. Walk us
through the first five minutes, the high value
networking encounter. And what do you say? What
do you ask? And what do you avoid? Oh, the first.
Yeah. Yeah, I like these. Okay. I think about.
So I get to know them a little bit. And typically
what people want to jump into immediately, because
we're trained on this when we go to networking
events, I think, is the back to the what do you
do question. And so they just jump into immediately,
I'm whatever title from whatever company. Okay,
fantastic. But what I want to do is I want to
get a level deeper with them. For me, that's
just, that's purely how I'm built is I want to
know a little bit more about the person. And
so I'll ask them a question around, okay, what
got you into that? Or why are you passionate
about it? Or a question like that, where we get
to get deeper very quickly. And then from there,
we follow the conversation wherever that goes.
And then inevitably what I'm asking is I'm asking
about what's coming next for them. And that is
purely from a, how do I help them? So if there's
a big project that they're thinking about, or
sometimes within meeting somebody, they tell
them within five minutes, they're like, yeah,
I'm looking actually for a new job. I'm like,
oh, okay. Good to know. And let me keep an eye
out for you. Something like that. But just trying
to get that level deeper so we're not in that
routine conversation and I get your spiel and
you get my spiel. Absolutely. And you want to
stay away from those awkward conversations and
stay away from those stale conversations. So
it's you being you have to you can say whatever
you want to say, ask any question you want, as
long as it's not a default way that you are always.
Being when you're in a networking group, a networking
environment, you have to be the person. They're
going to feel your energy. Right. You have to
be up and always with a smile and saying, OK,
look, you know, in your head that this person
isn't going to work for you. I'm going to move
on. But how are you going to move on? Are you
going to politely bow out and move on to the
next person? Yes. OK, but let's say that this
was a failed connection. When a connection goes
cold or you say the wrong thing, what's a straightforward
step to repair it? I think just owning it. That
came out wrong. No, it had to have been perfect.
Because listen, nobody's perfect. And I've made
10 ,000 mistakes in my lifetime. But one thing
I've learned is you own it. You own the mistake.
And so that's exactly what you do. It's up to
you, but you own the mistake. Yeah. Okay. So
how do you change your communication style between
a boardroom and a gym class and a one -on -one
coffee without losing authenticity? A boardroom,
gym, coffee shop. I think about... For me, what
is consistency in that? And one of the important
things in my background, like I shared, was growing
up in a family business. And so that translates
from the boardroom when I'm talking with executives,
like, yes, I've seen your struggle. I'm also
in your struggle. But I've also seen it for a
long historical perspective and all the problems
that leaderships deal with. For me, it's an important
part of my story. It's probably going to show
up if I'm in the gym having a conversation and
if I'm in a coffee shop having a conversation.
And so figuring it out from there and always
thinking about how do I tell that story and how
do I keep it consistent and not cherry picking
pieces out of it, but just this is who I am.
It's probably cherry picking pieces depending
on where you are. whether it's a boardroom or
coffee shop or something like that. But I think
you were right when you said cherry pick part
of your story because you're telling the same
story because that's how you got here and how
you're going to help them. But you are who you
are and you're going to cherry pick the certain
sections that you feel is the right move for
the venue. And I think the other part too, Michael,
for me is. Where I think it's important and where
I lose people, maybe people get confused in the
cherry picking, is I'm not telling the perfectly
polished stories. I'm telling you about how we
didn't communicate well. in the business. Or
I'm telling you about how another client of mine,
protecting their anonymity a little bit, but
telling them another story of where they didn't
do so well when it came to communication. I'm
not just giving the glossy versions of things.
And for me and my leadership, that's really important
because I need leaders to know that, especially
as I'm helping them develop these skills, that
they're going to get it wrong and it's going
to be messy. And that's part of leadership. And
that's really part of being a human being. When
we get into leadership, we get this weird idea
that we have to show up perfectly. And that's
not the case. And so whatever story I'm telling,
wherever I'm telling it, there's going to be
a point where you see that I failed. Or that
another person in the story example that I'm
sharing failed. Things like that. And so that
is where, to me, the consistency comes through.
Okay, good. How do you track whether your relationships
are actually paying off professionally or personally
without sounding transactional? Yeah, the transactional
piece, that's difficult. I think it comes back
to the value side of things. And just as a person
of faith, really trusting that there's a reason
this relationship exists. And so whether it's
because I am giving more. or because they are
giving more for this time or this season, that
it will come back. And so there's a reason that
this relationship is happening. Now, if it becomes
one where it's just a take -take, that's a real
conversation that we have to have, that I have
to have with that individual to say, hey, I love
helping you, and I feel as though I'm just giving
in this relationship. And then we talk about
it. And it's as simple as having that conversation
or being really clear with people to say, hey,
here's where, you know, if you're going to, for
example, refer me. We're talking about networking.
Referrals happen and can be the best source of
business. Here's what's really helpful. And getting
really clear with people on that. And in that
way, it's not, it can feel transactional, but
I don't think it is because it's actually. Clarity
is a gift to that individual. And it's a gift
to anybody that they might refer to you. Because
if somebody refers to me and they're looking
for, I don't know, disc or Enneagram work or
for any kind of example like that, certainly
I can help them. There are great facilitators
and facilitators around those that I know, but
that's not going to be me. And so giving that
clarity to them helps them also be a better connector
of individuals too. So how do you help everybody
shine in the best way possible? I think it's
got to be clear. And sometimes that comes across
as transactional, but I don't think it is. No,
I agree. I agree. Communication is key. And the
more open everybody is, the closer we are to
getting to the transaction, the business part
of it. But that comes way, way over here. All
this has to happen first. Okay, so let's bring
this podcast full circle and do a little 30 -day
challenge for my listeners. Give our audience
one simple 30 -day practice that will make them
measurably better at creating real create connections
and what it is and how they should measure progress.
Who would measure progress? Okay, that changes
it a little bit. Because I was going to say,
go back and listen to the segment on the agreement
and now use that with any conversation with.
That was very good. That was very good. And all
my listeners, they should listen to that segment
and implement that as the contract. Okay, within
30 days. But there's the second half of the question.
How are they going to measure progress? Yeah.
So when it comes to that, for the agreement,
the measurement of it, are you using it or you're
not? And then evaluating post -conversation,
how did it go? Did you get to a deeper level?
But if they want to be really measurable, we
have an assessment that gives them the, that
I was talking about a little bit earlier, the
real -time data. So if you go to knowhonesty
.com slash assessment, so K -N -O -W honesty
.com slash assessment, there's a About a 10 -minute
assessment you can take that's going to give
you your real -time ability to deliver and receive
real communication. And so we're looking at how
honest are you? How open are you? And if they
want the measurable, those are the numbers to
look at and say, okay, in my conversations, I'm
60 % honest. Or in my conversations, I'm 50 %
open. And then you can go take that again. It's
an assessment you can take over and over. We
typically recommend every six months or so, but
certainly can do it within 30 days and starting
that education piece there. So are we developing
this? Are we getting better at this? Because
I will tell you the people who succeed the most,
the people who get looked to as high trust, engaging.
Our exceptional leaders are the people who develop
and display and live out those two skills of
being open and being honest. So there's your
measurable thing that they can go do. That was
fantastic. Grace, I want to thank you so much
for coming on the podcast. And if somebody wants
to get hold of you about one of your programs
or to be coached or just to ask you a question,
what's the best way for them to get hold of you?
Yeah, they can. One of two ways. You can shoot
me a LinkedIn message. I'm on LinkedIn under
Grace Gavin. Feel free to follow me there. I
post about this all the time. And the other way,
a little bit more direct, is you can reach out
to me via email. My email is grace at no honesty
dot com. And again, K -N -O -W honesty dot com.
Important distinction to make there, Michael.
But shoot me an email and let's have a conversation
about this because. We've had a short one here
today, but I could go on and on. And I talk about
this all day long with my clients and wrestle
with this ability, this skill. How do we build
these things and talk through it? Reach out to
me there. Love to have conversations about this.
And bring me your challenges. Bring me your questions,
whatever it might be. Fantastic. Grace, thank
you so much for coming on the podcast. Thanks
for having me, Michael. Well, hold on, folks.
Don't go anywhere. Let's hear from our sponsors.
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We're out, folks. A huge thank you to our guests
for sharing such incredible insights today. And
of course, a big shout out to you, our amazing
listeners, for tuning in and spending your time
with us. If you're interested in my digital courses,
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about being perfect. It's about being present.
So take what you've learned today. get out there,
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