Second, welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building
Profitable Connections, the show where we uncover
how powerful relationships drive powerful results.
I'm your host, Michael Foreman, and today we're
diving into the intersection of leadership and
networking. Two forces, one combined, can transform
careers and organizations. My guest is an expert
in leadership styles, leading change, and developing
the skills that separate good leaders from great
ones. We'll explore how leadership style shapes
the way you connect, how to use your network
to navigate change, and why the best leaders
are also the best relationship builders. If you've
ever wanted to expand your influence, guide people
through transition, and build a network that
works as hard as you do, this conversation is
for you. I'd like to introduce to all of my listeners,
Paul Thornton, and he is the expert that I am
talking about. Paul, how are you? Welcome to
the podcast, and give us a little bit about your
background. Okay, thank you, Michael, first of
all, for having me on. I have worked roughly
20 years in a large corporation. I worked in
a variety of settings. I was on the leadership
team in several profit centers within this company.
So I got a firsthand look at the way leaders
operated and made change happen and built teams
and managed performance and things like that.
And I also have about 20 years working as a professor
at a university or college teaching management
and leadership. So I have a lot of the theories
of leadership and also some actual practice being
a leader. I've had people reporting to me. I
also coached a hockey team for four years. That
gave me some real life leadership experience.
And also, I always say being a parent or grandparent
is also a leadership role. And so that's another
angle to look at it. You're absolutely right.
Being a grandfather myself, I understand that
wholeheartedly. And that, of course, adds to
your practicality of your leadership roles, because
your leadership roles with your grandchildren
and corporate may be slightly different, but
you have to attack it the same way. OK, so how
does a leader's style influence the way they
build and sustain professional relationships?
I think leaders are always looking at two things,
the task or the work that needs to get done and
the relationships that they need to build to
make it happen. So those two things are really
important. But I think leaders. build strong,
positive, engaging relationships with people
to start with. They get a chance to understand
the person, the goals, their ambitions, their
wants and needs, and then they manage them or
lead them in a way that connects to what they
want to achieve as well as what the company wants
to achieve. So they try to weave those things
together and make it happen. I think leaders,
too, they're always building their network so
when they have needs and problems that arise
down the road, they have a group of people they
can contact and say, I got this problem with
a... demotivated person, what would you advise
or what would you do in this situation? So their
network helps them provide advice and guidance
and ideas. You might not always agree with someone
in your network, but you can get some ideas from
them about, who knows, strategic planning, building
teams, merging with another company. It depends
on the situation, obviously. Yeah, that's true.
You don't want yes men around you. You want somebody
that can give you actual information and you
decide, you have to always go with your gut.
But if you get, oh, you know what? I didn't think
about that. Or maybe I should attack it like
this because I found that, or the people that
I coach, the leaders are really training other
leaders and they have to teach them to think
like that because if they can't think on their
own, then they're really not worth their salt.
So that's what I think. Okay. So in times of
change, what role does networking play in helping
leaders guide their teams and organizations effectively?
I think the first thing in leading change is
you have to diagnose the current situation. What's
happening? What's working well? What are the
biggest problems? What do the numbers tell you
about what's going on? And I think having a network
or group of people that you go to and get their
advice and their opinions, it helps you get a
complete, full picture of what's happening. And
you're right. Some people surround themselves,
some leaders surround themselves with yes people.
And that doesn't help them get a full, complete
picture of really what's going on. So I think
it starts there. And sometimes. Some leaders
I find go to the same one or two people all the
time to get their input. Sometimes you got to
think about, I need to change it up a bit. I
need to make sure I'm going to the right people.
That could mean the right customers, the right
suppliers, the right employees. Each situation
is unique, but you got to figure out who can
give me, who can help me understand the current
situation. before I even begin the change process.
The next step, I think, in the change process
is what idea or what changes are you going to
pursue? I find leaders always have a laundry
list of things they'd like to do, and some of
them try to do way too much. They're doing 18
different things at once, and it gets confusing,
and people don't know what the priorities are,
and it's just too much. What are the one or two
things I'm going to focus in on and pursue? And
again, getting advice from your network can help.
You might not always, you the leader, might not
always have the clear, precise answer of what
direction or what idea or what proposal you should
be pursuing. So getting a little other points
of view can be helpful. Third point, I think,
is presenting your message to the right people.
Just like the investor, just like the entrepreneurs
on Shark Tank, they're presenting their idea
to the sharks to get them to invest. The leader
has to present his idea or her idea to the right
people to get them to buy in. So they got to
be able to explain it really clearly and succinctly.
And they have to be able to convince the people
that this idea is a winner. It's going to help
me. It's going to improve the team or the organization
or whatever. So that's important. And then the
fourth step is plan and implement. Any type of
change, any type of new thing you're doing, you've
got to have a plan. And the plan's got to lay
out all the steps and actions that will be taken
to... implement what it is you're going to do.
So that's a quick synopsis. But the theme, I
think, that runs through all of those is involving
others, meaning involving your network, getting
feedback from them at each step in the process
to help them or their information will help you
get clearer in your thinking. and the steps that
you're going to take to achieve your goals. Absolutely.
And what would you say to, if you're a C -suite
executive, let's say, and one of your managers
has a problem with the company or whatever, what
would you say to them on how they should react
to their manager or employee with that? Now,
before you answer, my... My answer was always,
if you have a problem, bring me a solution. Bring
me a solution with the problem and we'll discuss
it. But if you don't have a solution, if you're
just here to complain, I don't want to hear it.
So how do you feel about that? I was also taught
that by my manager who said the same thing. Don't
just bring me problems. And that's true, I think,
a lot of the time. But I think sometimes you
legitimately don't. know what the solution or
possible solutions might be. And you need someone
to go to who's a little bit more seasoned and
more experienced, and maybe they've had a similar
problem. Now you can come in, hopefully you can
come in with at least some ideas you've thought
about, but you can't quite nail it down in terms
of what would be the best approach or solution
to pursue. So that's the way I would advise it.
Sometimes let the person come in and spill their
guts and explain the problem they're having and
probe them a bit. What have they thought about
and how have they analyzed the different ideas
they've come up with? Make it a learning opportunity
for the individual, the manager. So yeah, that's
what I'd recommend. Okay, good. In times of change,
what role does networking play in helping leaders
guide their teams and organizations effectively?
We all know change is messy, right? It never
quite goes the way you hoped. We lay out a plan,
we think it's perfect, and we start implementing
it and things don't always go as... We hope you
need to be in touch with not only the people
directly involved in the plan, but also, again,
your network to give you some advice and guidance
that we implemented ABC and it's not working
or we've had these problems. And this is what
I'm thinking of doing. These are the changes
I'm thinking of making. Does that make sense?
I'm getting some feedback from them. So again,
your network can be a great source of ideas and
feedback to you to consider, am I thinking clearly?
Am I seeing the picture clearly? Do I need to
make some adjustments that I'm not aware of?
So that can be very helpful to the change leader.
Absolutely. Absolutely. You rely on your network
to help you sort things out. Of course, the answer,
you always have to answer it yourself, right?
You always have to go with your gut and everything
else. But it's good to hear it from other people.
Can you share a story where a leader's network
directly helped them navigate a major transition
or challenge? Let's see. I was involved in a
pretty major change initiative at the company
I worked at. We were introducing continuous improvement
philosophy into the operation. Now, this goes
back 30, 40 years ago. And there was an outside
consultant group that was hired to lead the training
and the actions and what have you. changed throughout
the company. Now, this is a big company, 20 ,000
employees, so it wasn't a small deal. And there
was lots of training going on, lots of new process
changes were being implemented and what have
you. And I would say that the efforts to make
this happen, I would say the change leader did
a lot of networking and consulting with a variety
of people. to get their inputs and their ideas
to understand how's it going? Is it working?
What metrics? Are we tracking the right metrics?
What do we need to change to make it even better?
So there's a lot of outside input. Again, not
that everything was accepted and taken verbatim.
Like you said, Michael, you got to trust your
gut and you got to have a sense of Is this going
the way I had hoped or wanted? And having the
right metrics you're tracking to assess are the
results going good? But that was an example of
using a broader network to solicit their input
as well as the people directly involved. I think
that's really important. I have seen some change
initiatives where Once the plan gets formalized,
the senior leader who wants the change to happen
isn't as active or involved as he should be.
They disappear and they think it's going to take
care of itself. And again, it doesn't. There's
lots of little things that come up and people
get discouraged. And the other thing is we're
trying to have people. changed to new ways while
they're still doing their old ways of working.
Their plates are already overflowing and we're
giving them yet one or two or three more tasks
that they have to learn and do. And they're like
scratching their head like I'm stressed out.
I can't take on anything else. I just can't do
it. So the senior leader needs to be aware of
that and make adjustments. change the plan as
needed and it's dynamic but they have to stay
close to the action i guess is what i'm saying
that that's true they can't forget where they
came from yeah that's that's the biggest thing
all of a sudden they get to a position of power
and they're like this is the way it is and that's
it and forgetting completely that all of these
people have jobs and everything is on their plate
now. So when you're adding to it, what do you
really do? Are you taking away from the other
tasks at hand? So you really have to take all
into consideration. You're absolutely right.
How can emerging leaders use networking to develop
the skills they need to lead effectively in the
future? I think to develop your skills, I think
it's a lifelong journey. And I think there's
a number of things you can do, but let me mention
a couple. I think one is you can observe other
leaders who are really good at a particular skill.
For example, when I was early in my career, there
was one particular manager who was outstanding
at running meetings. So every time I went to
one of his meetings, I would make a point to
study him, what he did, how he ran it, how he
facilitated it, when he made decisions, how he
involved the group. So my point is observing
other people, other top performers, I should
say, is one way. to get ideas and techniques
that work, and you can think about how do I incorporate
that into my approach. Having a mentor. Now,
I find if you have a big network, in that network
you can identify one or two or more people who
have accomplished what you want to accomplish,
and you can approach them and ask them to be
your mentor. and have a one -on -one relationship
with that person. And again, tap their brain
and what they've done, and they can give you,
again, some valuable advice and guidance on how
to handle different situations and how to be
more effective and things like that. In general,
using your network If you have a good network,
you have some people that have expertise in certain
areas that maybe you're not as strong as you'd
like to be. For example, I'm not great in AI.
It's a new thing coming on. I'm trying to find
a couple of people who are expert or more expert
than I am so I can network with them and they
can give me insights of the. tool and how I can
use it more effectively in various ways, things
like that. So using your network to tap into
the various skill sets that they may have can
be a plus to develop your skills. Also getting
feedback. We all need feedback to improve. Asking
someone in your network, hey, you're coming to
this presentation I'm making on Tuesday. Would
you observe me and focus in on how many effective
questions do I ask during my presentation? Or
how often do I pause effectively to let the audience
to consider the point I'm trying to make? So
give them some things to focus in on, to give
you feedback on. to help you, again, be a better
presenter down the road. So that's a few different
ways you could use your network. That's so true.
And just going on the point of having a mentor.
is so important. And really, no matter what level
you're at, if you're at a low level management
leading, you need a mentor to help you through
it. If you're a middle management or even a C
-suite executive, it's always good to have a
mentor because you need to throw some things
at him and say, what about this? Did I do this
right? Or could I do it differently? Or is there
something that I'm missing? I mentor two people,
but I also have a mentor because Everybody always
needs a mentor. Everybody. And the more you can
get. Now, where AI is concerned, I had no idea,
but I began writing. I connected with somebody
who had an AI company, and I'm writing an article
for him for AI and networking on three different
platforms. So I do that every week. And I'm finding
that the more I write for AI, the more... branding
I'm getting. I'm not necessarily getting a customer
or a client, but I'm branding myself. I'm using
AI in that way. But yes, you need that point
of view that isn't not necessarily like yours,
but someone who you can throw something like,
did I do this right? Or can I do this better?
And an ongoing relationship like that. But yes,
it's very important. Do you see certain leadership
styles being more effective at building trust
and influence through networking? I have taught
over the years basically three leadership styles.
One is directing, telling people what to do,
how to do it, when to have it done by. One is
discussing, asking questions, involving people.
getting their thoughts and ideas. And the third
one is delegating. Basically, I think leaders
use those styles when they're working with their
direct reports or the people in their organization.
Now, would you use those styles when you're networking?
I think when you're networking, basically you're
discussing. You're asking questions to get...
thoughts and ideas and approaches they would
use. If you're a mentor, you might be delegating
to your mentee, telling them before our next
meeting, I want you to do ABC and come to the
meeting and we'll discuss it. Directing not so
much would be used, but I think trust is something
that develops over time. And I think it's basically
being true to your word and doing what you commit
to do and being present and focused on helping
the person improve and providing them the best
advice you can give if you're the person that's
being asked for that advice. I don't know, that's
rambling, but those are some thoughts on trust
and leadership styles. I don't know, what do
you think? Well, what I think is it really depends
on your role within the company or your own company.
But the most important thing is, A, you have
to be present, you have to be authentic, but
you have to come through with what you said you
were going to do. Because once you don't do that,
You lost all that trust. With the networking,
it's know you, like you, trust you. They'll do
business with you. And to know you, everybody
knows you, like you. You're a very likable guy,
but that may narrow the scope down just a little
bit. But that trust factor is so important. And
how do you attain that trust factor? So you have
to come through with what you say you're going
to come through at a minimum. You always over
deliver. So you always over -deliver, you always
come up with that at a minimum, but you're always
a true leader, doesn't just delegate the information,
just close their eyes to it. There's got to be
some feedback. And however you deal with the
feedback, that's up to you. But that's my take.
Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense.
And I think consistency is so important. Absolutely.
You've got to be consistent. You can't do it
one time, but not the next time. Or you miss
assignments or dates or you miss meetings. People,
you lose trust very quickly. You can lose it
very quickly. Yeah. Yeah. It takes over time
how to attain that trust value. I was in the
military and they always told us you get a thousand
out of boys. You did a great job. You did great.
It's great. But one or shit, you will screw up
once and you'll lose all of it. Yeah, yeah. So
it's so easy to lose, but when you get it, so
that's the big difference. Yeah, yeah. When leading
change, how can leaders use their network to
build buy -in and reduced resistance? Getting
them involved early on and soliciting their views.
And helping them become part of the change initiative
certainly increases buy -in. No one likes to
be mandated that you need to do X, Y, Z. And
it's totally first time you're hearing it. It's
totally new. You've had no input. You're not
prepared for it. So yeah, getting them involved
early and often is really important. Absolutely.
And I've been in this situation all too many
times. But if you get the people, when you delegate
or when you give them responsibility and you
take their feedback, but you actually implement
some of the items that they suggested, then all
of a sudden they have a new, renewed feeling
about the project or changes and they feel more
of a buy -in and you get a lot more out of them.
And sometimes explaining why you didn't accept
maybe one of the points or one of the comments
they had is also valuable. You know, so they
understand why you didn't do X, Y, Z that they
recommended. There may be a very legitimate reason
for your thinking and why you didn't accept that
particular idea. Yeah, it's the days of when
a boss. I have a big distinction between a boss
and a leader. And a long time ago, it's like
in the 50s and 60s, even part of the 70s, the
boss would say, you do it this way because I
said so. And I said so doesn't fly. It may be
totally legitimate reasons. You can explain that
to them and they might say, oh, you know what?
I never thought about that. You're right. Give
them that little bit of a buy -in. and have them
understand what's going on. What's one networking
mistake leaders make when trying to expand their
influence? One mistake that they make? Yeah,
one mistake. I think some networking to me is
this reciprocity. You have to give to get. It's
not just one way. Some leaders don't treat it
that way. It's all take. And just they don't
provide the support and assistance and advice
and ideas when they could to people in their
network. So I think the key is treating networking
as a reciprocal type arrangement where you can
help the people in your network. When you can
help the people in your network, you do. You
take those steps. It could be a great article
for them to read or a great seminar or a great
thought you had about something. But it's providing
advice and guidance as well as going to them
for advice and guidance. So it's mutual reciprocity
is key. Yeah, I'm going to take that one step
further. OK, you always bring value to the relationship,
right? When you network. If you have what's called
a servant's heart, if you look to give and not
to receive, and you're thinking like, why did
I come here in the first place if I'm not going
to sell anything or get any clients, but I'm
just looking to help anybody who I bump into?
That's called having a servant's heart. And so
when you look to give, constantly look to give
to a person that you're talking to, bring value.
connect on LinkedIn, but they connect and say
goodbye. If you want somebody, you want to expand
your influence, you can connect with a person.
And as you said, bring an article about something
that was written and say, look, I found this.
I feel that you might find it valuable here.
Take it. That type of thing. And if you're constantly
giving, it will come around. Bob Berg. speaks
about this often. He's a very big speaker about
networking, communication, and everything else.
It's your giving and not to receive. And you
will see that you'll get twice as many clients
by doing that rather than just networking used
to be transactional. I have a widget. It's $3.
How many do you want? You'll take it. Okay, good.
I'll give you an invoice. We're done. That's
having a customer base. But I really feel that
ever since the pandemic, we've moved it to a
relationship base. And it's more of the relationships
you have, not just customers. So that's a way
to look at it. Yep. How can leaders intentionally
create networks that are diverse in perspective,
not just industry or background? I think on LinkedIn,
you can build your network through various means,
but you can broaden it to people outside your
function or industry and get some people that
have different orientations or different types
of jobs in your network. And it's interesting.
I've written a lot of books about leadership.
often do is I go to a variety of people to get
their thoughts and ideas about my leadership
styles. For example, in my last book, I interviewed
the local fire chief at the fire department,
and I asked him about how he used the three styles
of leading. Now, he wouldn't typically identify
himself as a leader, or he wouldn't be someone
I'd typically go to. I'd usually go to people
in the business world, executives and CEOs and
what have you, but getting different points of
view. Another example, I went to the local artist
in our town. Now, what's an artist have to do
with leadership? I wanted to see how she approached
painting. Did she start with the big picture
idea? Did she start with the background outline?
How did she think about the vision that she was
trying to convey? My point is going to different
people that are not typically in your industry
or function can be very interesting to see how
they view the problem or issue or question you
have. So going, a football coach is going to
give you a different view than a policeman or
Someone who's into the arts or a comedian. I
one time, I taught leadership and I one time
invited a comedian into my class to talk about
how does he engage the audience? What does he
do to connect with people? And again, you get
some interesting ideas about, oh, I never thought
of that, or that's interesting that you would
do that. So I'm rambling again a little bit,
but. broaden your views and include people outside
your immediate domain to increase the diversity
of ideas that you might come up with and might
help you see it from a different point of view.
You're absolutely right. And you by you going
to all these different types of people, different
types of leaders, because they're leaders in
their own right. And you're getting the input
from all these different directions. But I find
it most the comedian when you brought the comedian
in and public speaking and comedians have a lot
in common. Right. We're always. Timing everything.
We're always waiting for that pause that you
wait for the audience to respond. That's keeping
everybody in check. But you get from all these
different sources, my military background, thinking
about my leaders from behind, some were like
strictly military and others were like business
minded. And they talk about you and everything
else. Their orders usually, whatever they said,
that was it. But some explained, some didn't
explain, some told me what to do, some explained
what I had to do. Various different people, very
different ways. You get much more out of it.
And I understand that 100%. In your experience,
what daily or weekly networking habits separate
good leaders from great ones? I think the great
ones, the quality of their network is different.
I think they have people who have excelled, some
people that have excelled in their field. So
they're getting top information from those outstanding
individuals, let's say. I think people that have
a good network but not a great network, they
have a good variety of people, but they maybe
could broaden it a little bit more or maybe they
could include a few outstanding people or a few
people like we were talking about before that
have excelled in different domains that would
be of interest and they'd gain some new ideas
from so i think that would help i don't know
if that answers the question but that's what
i think about it enough okay let's bring this
podcast full circle if you could give one piece
of advice to leaders looking to strengthen both
their leadership and their network at the same
time what would it be take time to make your
network a priority think about who is in your
network who do you go to on a regular basis and
maybe how do you need to change it up a little
bit who should you or who could you include in
your network that would give you valuable candid
honest feedback or advice so in what ways can
you enhance your network. I guess that's a good
way of thinking about it. And that's something
we probably all need to be thinking about on
a regular basis. And if you do that, you're broadening
your source of information, source of ideas,
and source of feedback on things that you've
attempted to do or want to do and that type of
thing. That's really good. I want you to think
about one additional thing that I don't want
you to think about your network, right? You think
about how expansive, how broad your network is,
but that's really not your network. You have
to think about whose network are you in? So if
you change that way of thinking, say, okay, look,
they're in my network. I connected with them
and everything else, but who am I? Am I in whose
network? And that will really give you the best
answer. Paul, I have to tell you, this was great.
We had a great conversation. You had so many
points to remember of leadership and all the
different aspects of it. It was great. If somebody
wants to get hold of you, what's the best way?
I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I try to write
something there two to three times a week. I've
written 28 books on leadership. They're all available
on Amazon. The ones that I highly recommend are
Leadership Styles. I think that's a really great
book. The Leadership Process is another good
book. And the one I most recently wrote was Add
Value, Improve the Status Quo. So my books are
good sources to do expand on some of these ideas
and see what you think. And they're all inexpensive.
They're not going to break your bank. They're
like $4 .99. So they're inexpensive and they're
a quick read. I'm a big believer in getting your
big idea out there succinctly. My books are typically
50 to 70 pages long. So it's not a... 300 -page
manual you got to get through. And I think the
ideas, the feedback I get, the ideas are practical
and usable and help people be more effective
leaders and add value, make a difference. So
that's what I would say. Paul, thank you very
much for coming on the podcast. It was great
having you. And I look to speak with you again.
Thank you, Michael. I appreciate being on, and
let's do it again and down the road a few months.
Sure. Well, hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere.
Let's hear from our sponsors. David Neal, co
-founder, Revved Up Kids. Revved Up Kids is on
a mission to protect children and teens from
sexual abuse, exploitation, and trafficking.
They provide prevention training programs for
children, teens, and adults. To learn more, go
to revvedupkids .org. Henry Kaplan, Century 21.
When it comes to making the biggest financial
decision of your life, leave it in the hands
of a proven professional, Henry Kaplan. Henry
is a global real estate agent with Century 21,
celebrating his 41st year in business. No matter
where you're moving, Henry has the right connections
for you. You can contact Henry at 561 -427 -4888.
A huge thank you to our guests for sharing such...
insights today. And of course, a big shout out
to you, our amazing listeners, for tuning in
and spending your time with us. If you're interested
in my digital courses, being coached or having
me come and talk to your company, just go to
Michael and fill out the request form. Remember,
networking isn't about being perfect. It's about
being present. So take what you've learned today,
get out there and make some meaningful connections.
If you've enjoyed this episode, please don't
forget to subscribe. Leave us a review and share
it with someone who could use a little networking
inspiration. Let's keep the conversation going.
You can find me on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, YouTube,
or my website, foreman .com slash podcasts.