Welcome back to Networking Unleashed, Building
Profitable Connections, the podcast where we
unpack the real strategies that turn handshakes
into opportunity and conversations into clients.
I'm your host, Michael Forman, and today's episode
is all about one of the most powerful and often
misunderstood business growth tools, referrals.
In the word sales, If the word sales makes you
want to hide behind your LinkedIn profile, you're
going to love today's guest. She's built a thriving
referral -driven business without cold pitching,
high -pressure tactics, or awkward coffee meetings
that go nowhere. We're talking about how to earn
referrals by building trust, delivering value,
and showing up the right way. So if you're ready
to grow your business by building relationships
instead of chasing leads, this one's for you.
Let's dive in. I want to tell you, my guest today,
this is all proven technology, right? And this
is what I talk about all the time. When I go
into businesses, workshops, it's all about referrals.
So Jazz, Jazz Joseph, I want to welcome you to
the podcast. Why don't you introduce yourself
and give us a little bit about your background?
Thank you. Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.
So I spent my career working for big marketing
agencies, specifically HubSpot, Platinum, Diamond
partner agencies. And then I started my own business
about four and a half years ago in January of
2021. And that business has ebbed and flowed
in a few different directions over the years.
Whenever we originally started, we were an agency
for agencies. So I always used to say working
in the agency world for years, the shoemaker's
kids never have shoes. And agency owners spend
so much time building their clients' businesses
that they rarely have the time, energy, focus
to work on their own business. Then in the past
few years, The market has shifted quite a bit
with the rise of AI and the decrease of organic
reach. And so we really started to hone in more
on sales enablement and sales support. Whenever
I think about marketing, I always think about
marketing through a sales and marketing alignment
lens. I'm very ROI driven. I love to talk numbers,
revenue with my clients. And so we really have
morphed into more of a sales enablement agency.
And now we support businesses of all sizes, aligning
their sales and marketing, making sure that they
have full visibility. We are still a HubSpot
partner agency. So we lean heavily into CRMs
and tracking. everyone in your CRM, which I know
we're going to be talking about today, not just
customers, but also referral partners and networking
opportunities and everybody that you should be
keeping in touch with as a business owner. This
all sounds fantastic because it's right in line
with what I talk about. So I'm very excited for
this podcast. Okay, let's dive right into it.
You've built a referral -driven business without
leaning on traditional sales tactics. What was
the turning point that led you down that path?
Yeah, it's a great question. And one of the reasons
that I started my own business is because I really
wanted to be human -centric, right? And so I
worked in client services for years, account
management, and I was running these accounts
at these agencies. And I hated the sales piece
of that job in the sense that I hated to always
be nickel and diming my clients, right? Asking
for more, more, more. Oh, you want to do this
thing? Actually, it's going to be an additional
cost. And so when I built my own business, I
wanted to be really intentional about doing it
in a way that felt aligned with me and not always
nickel and diming my clients, but figuring out
a model that allowed me to really be a fractional
member of their team and embed. and build those
strong relationships with them. And so naturally,
whenever you build a business in that way, referrals
start to come in. And a lot of what I did in
the early days of my business and still do today
was networking. So finding out those groups where
my target audience would hang out. So whenever
I was really focused on agency owners, I was
trying to figure out where are agency owners
hanging out? What events are they going to? Where
are they hanging out online? What Slack groups?
What Facebook group? The list goes on. And then
down the road, I actually started hosting my
own events. So I started being that point of
contact for agency owners to gather and network
and collaborate. And so that was another great
way to just continue to boost that referral business.
That's so you hit on so many points that I don't
have time to comment on all of them. But it sounds
like you're going down the right path because
I am a firm believer that networking is the base
of all businesses. And if you do it correctly,
but if you follow up correctly, not just meeting
the people, but if you follow up correctly, you'll
have huge success. OK, so. Why do you think so
many entrepreneurs struggle with asking for referrals
and how can they make it feel more natural? Yeah,
it's a great question. I think part of it is
as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, we spend
all day every day thinking about our business,
right? Like your business is your baby. You're
constantly thinking about it. But you have to
remember that no one else is thinking about your
business nearly as much as you are. And so a
big piece of networking, getting referral business
is staying top of mind. And I think that can
be really challenging for a lot of business owners
because they think to themselves, I already talked
about my service or I already launched this new
project or whatever it is for you, right? But
the truth of the matter is we're all being bombarded
with information just 24 -7. And people are not
going to remember what you do unless you have
a really strong strategy in place to stay top
of mind with them. So that can mean different
things for different businesses. Sometimes that
is picking up the phone and just saying, hey,
we haven't touched base in a while. I would love
to hear what you're up to. I would love to share
what I'm up to. Sometimes that can be more traditional
marketing channels like email marketing or like
LinkedIn or Instagram or TikTok, depending on
your business model. But at the end of the day,
I think that is a huge mindset shift is. remembering
that nobody's thinking about your business as
much as you are. And so it's really important
that you're staying top of mind and you're regularly
talking about yourself, not in a salesy way,
but in a friendly like, hey, reminder, I'm here.
I'm doing cool stuff. This is what my world looks
like. Because then when people have a problem,
you're already top of mind and it's very easy
for them to. either raise their hand and say,
hey, I'm ready to work with you or refer somebody
else and say, hey, if you have this problem,
here's the person you need to talk to. I agree
with that all 100%. The only thing that I would
add to it is when you talk to somebody through
LinkedIn, through an email, something, you have
to bring value to that conversation. So if you
had an article or something, say, hey, look,
I just read this and I thought you might be interested.
Have at it, you know, that type of thing. Yeah,
yeah. That will help them keep you top of mind.
Say, look, you know what? She really, what I
do, and she really is thinking about my business.
So here you are thinking, because as you said,
we think about our business a whole lot more
than everybody else. But now you're giving a
little inside track to say, look, she's thinking
about my business too. I'm going to remember
her. So that's a little something. No, that's
a great call out. Thank you. So what's the difference
between earning a referral and asking for one?
And why does that distinction matter? Yeah, it's
a great question. So I think there is room for
both, admittedly. So earning a referral happens
when you are not asking for a referral, but instead,
like I mentioned, you're staying top of mind
and people are immediately thinking of you. So
when a problem arises, somebody says, hey, I
need HubSpot help. All of the people in my network
are going, you have to talk to Jazz. Jazz is
the person to talk to. So that's earning a referral.
And asking for a referral, I think is okay in
certain situations, right? We never want to be
the person who's knocking on everyone's door
saying, give me business. But I think there are
appropriate times. For example, whenever you're
having a catch up or a coffee chat with someone.
If you can, to your point, Michael, lead with
value and say, how can I support you? How can
I help you in your business? Listen, wait for
their response. See if you can jump in to help.
And then nine times out of 10, they're going
to ask you the same question, right? They're
going to say, how can I support you? And you
can say, here's what I'm looking for. I have
some spots open right now. I'm accepting new
clients. Here's what an ideal client looks like
for me. Do you know anyone? And when you're leading
with value and you're also just leading with
that genuine human, authentic connection, right?
We're not leading as a salesperson, but we genuinely
want to help the other person. It makes it a
lot easier for them to feel comfortable than
giving you that referral and knowing, okay, if
I pass this person over to Jazz. Jazz is not
going to be a sleazy salesperson and immediately
get on the phone and try and start selling to
that. She's going to be a genuine human. And
she's going to say, hey, tell me about you. Tell
me about your business. Let's chit chat. Let's
get to know each other. Oh, by the way, I think
you may be a fit for what I offer. Are you interested?
Right? That's a very different approach. Absolutely.
Because we have to go in with the mindset that
we're a problem solver. Right. They'll have a
problem and we can solve it. So I say almost
exactly what you said, but I put a little twist
on it. I listen to them called active listening.
I listen to them. I respond to them and I say,
you know something? I like you. I like how you
do business. I like what you do. How can I make
you more successful? How can I be a good referral
source for you? And so that usually. Blows them
away. Michael, I don't even know what you do
yet. Why are you doing this? But that's what's
going with a giving, not receiving. Going in
with a servant's heart. You know, saying, look,
how can I help this person without even them
knowing what I do? And soon enough, what goes
around comes around. Okay. Can you walk us through
what a referral -worthy experience looks like
in your business model? Yeah, absolutely. It's
a great question. So my business model is very
human centric, right? I do consulting. And so
I'm in the weeds with my clients, right? I'm
digging into their sales process. I'm meeting
their team. I'm doing training. I'm deeply understanding
their revenue goals. And so they have to be able
to trust me. And that in the same way that I
lead that way with my clients, I lead that way
with referral partners. To me, it's all about
trust. I don't sell a product, right? Click and
purchase. That's a completely different sales
cycle. But in the consulting world, it's so human
driven. It's so connection driven. It's so trust
driven that however you operate in your sales
process with prospects, that should depend on
how you operate with referral partners. And so
I often lead by sharing the pain points that
I address. And I think that is something that's
really important that a lot of people skip out
on, as opposed to leading with what you do, right?
I do HubSpot consulting. I come in, I help you
fix your HubSpot. I don't lead with that. I lead
with, here are the pain points that my target
audience is experiencing that I come in and solve
for them. Because it's much easier for a referral
partner to identify those pain points than it
is for them to identify a person who needs the
service that you offer, right? We all have fancy
names for our consulting businesses now, right?
I do operations or I do backend development,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Most of the time.
We don't really know what those things mean,
let's be honest. But we do understand pain points.
So if you say, I help people whose websites are
not converting. I help people whose sales and
marketing teams are arguing with each other.
I help leaders who need more visibility into
what their sales team is doing and if they're
selling. I help marketing leaders determine which
of their campaigns are driving the strongest
ROI. Oh, now I can identify. I know people who
fit that bill. I know people who are struggling
with that, or I can be out in the world listening
for people who are struggling with those problems.
Very good. Very good. And that's a very good
distinction that it definitely keeps you grounded.
It keeps you in it so that your client always
will think of you. without even thinking of you.
They have a problem, go, oh, I have to go to
JS for that. Or I can give JS a call and it's
not going to cost me anything, but to just give
me some advice. So that's the kind of consulting
that we all look for. How do you keep yourself
top of mind in your network without sounding
like you're constantly promoting something? Yeah,
great question. So I think that it's twofold.
One is being super passionate about what you
do. And I think when you're super passionate,
that passion just shines through. And going hand
in hand with that is storytelling. So I really
challenge myself at the end of every day to look
at my calendar and think about what did I do
today that feels like a good story that I can
use to stay top of mind. So for example, if I
had a client call, and they came to me with a
very specific problem. That's a story that I
can then tell via a LinkedIn post, via an email
newsletter, in a networking call that I have
next week, whatever it is, that doesn't make
me sound salesy, right? Because I'm not leading
with, hey, let me tell you about the services
I offer. But instead, I'm telling a story like,
hey, listen to how interesting this is. A client
came to me, they had XYZ problem. And at first,
we thought maybe we should do this, but then
we tried it out and it didn't work. And here's
what actually worked for them. And here's how
it moved the needle. And here's the results that
they saw. And that's a really tangible story
that allows my passion to bleed through, that
allows you to understand the problem and the
solution without me explicitly saying, hey, if
you know somebody with this problem, please send
them to me because I would love to work with
them. That's absolutely the best way to do it
because I know when I go on stages and I talk
in workshops, stories resonate with people. People
will remember the story above and beyond what
you're trying to teach them. So if you can bring
that story in, they'll say, oh, I have the same
problem. I have the same pain point. And that
will draw them in that much faster. Okay. What
advice would you give to someone who is new in
business and doesn't yet have a strong referral
base and where do they start? Yeah, great question.
My biggest advice to people who are new in business
is to start with a CRM. And the reason I say
that is because when you are new in business.
People love to help you, right? Everybody is
willing to give you some time, give you some
advice, have a quick coffee chat with you. And
all of those people that you're collecting are
now invested in your growth and they want to
see you succeed. And you need to stay in touch
with them. But it's so easy as you're building
a business to forget about those people, let
them fall through the cracks. Maybe you remember
them, but you don't remember exactly what you
talked with them about. And if you have a CRM,
it's really easy for you to keep track of all
of those people, take notes about what you talked
about, even set yourself tasks maybe in a month
or three months down the road to follow up with
them and give them an update and ask what they're
up to and continue that conversation with them.
So if you're able to build that really strong
foundation from the beginning with a CRM and
stay organized in that way, you can go just so
much farther because there's people that honestly
right now as a four and a half year business
owner. probably wouldn't give me the time of
day. But whenever I was starting out, people
are just so much more likely to help you, right?
They want to see you succeed. They want to give
you that wisdom and impart some of what they've
learned onto you. And so capture those people
while you're young and fresh and new, and then
take them on this journey with you as you're
building your business. I agree. Part of my presentation
is using a CRM. I happen to be a HubSpot user,
have been for about three years. So when you'd
mentioned the tasks and keeping up and the notes
and everything, I'm like, that's what I do every
day. You know, the first thing I do, I look at
my tasks for the day, I accomplish them, and
then I can move on and do new business. But I
look at my tasks. So I can't agree more for using
a CRM. And of course, I don't get any money out
of it. but use HubSpot. Okay. Have you ever received
a referral that completely surprised you? And
what do you think made it happen? Yes, all the
time. And I think most of my really surprising
referrals will come from my LinkedIn presence.
So I am very active posting on my personal LinkedIn.
And what I have found over the years is that
a lot of people are lurking on LinkedIn. So they
never like a post. They never comment. They never
share. And so I don't even know that they're
reading my posts. I don't know that they're engaging
with my content. But all of a sudden... a lead
will come through and they will say the most
random thing to me. Hey, one of your professors
from whenever you were in college is my wife
and she's been seeing your LinkedIn presence
and I thought that I could use you. Hey, we haven't
talked in 10 plus years, but I see you on LinkedIn.
I know exactly what you do. I know the pain points
that you help people with and I'm struggling
with that. And so I want to work with you. And
so again, like so much of it is staying top of
mind and it can feel like a slog because you
think nobody's reading these posts. I'm not getting
the engagement. The same four people comment
on every single one of my posts and they're my
friends and I know that they already know what
I'm doing. But the truth of the matter is there
are so many people lurking in the background
that are not going to engage until they have
a problem or they know someone with a problem.
And then they're going to pop their head up and
say, hey, I'm ready to talk to you. I know the
feeling. I post on LinkedIn. That's what I consider
the business site of social media. I post on
there probably twice a day, five days a week.
And I guess about seven months had passed. And
I got a LinkedIn message from an event planner.
Like we were talking every day. I'm like, who
are you? I didn't. Write that. And she just said,
would you be interested in talking and doing
this and speaking? It's a short plane ride and
so on and so forth. But you're right. They're
lurking in the background, just seeing what your
next post would be. And they realize that they
can use you. Exactly. And Michael, that's such
a testament to to the tone and style of your
post that people feel comfortable starting that
conversation with you as if they know you as
if they've been talking to you forever. And I
would encourage our listeners to to think in
a similar way of how can you feel friendly? How
can you feel approachable? Yes, LinkedIn is a
professional network. But at the end of the day,
we're all humans doing business with other humans.
So if you can make yourself come across in a
way. that feels very warm and open, people are
more likely to reach out to you and feel like
they can approach you with questions or opportunities
or problems or things that they want to loop
you in on. I'm absolutely right. One of the things
I had to remind people is that digital world
and person -to -person world, right? The digital
world, Zoom, this is great, but I have to remember
that Jazz Joseph is a person and that I'm talking
to a person. So you have the same things, but
through Zoom, but you still have to follow the
same rules as person -to -person networking.
When I say rules, I just mean that comfort feeling.
Okay, so systems or habits do you use to track,
nurture, and deepen your referral relationships
over time? I think I know the answer to this,
but... Go ahead. Yes. I mean, we're back to HubSpot.
It really, it's that all -in -one tool. And honestly,
for anybody listening who is just starting out,
the free HubSpot CRM is super powerful in and
of itself. You don't need to onboard to like
these really expensive tiers right away. The
nice thing about HubSpot is that it will grow
with you. But I have clients that have been on
the free version for years and years. And it's
a very, very... functional CRM. It gets you where
you need to be. So yeah, as far as nurturing
and keeping in touch with people, like I mentioned,
I use tasks a lot. Depending on what level of
HubSpot you're in, you can use sequences. You
can enroll people in automated emails that feel
very one -to -one. so that you can just be nurturing
these people in the background. And so they don't
fall through the cracks. You don't forget about
them. And as soon as they respond, that lands
in your inbox and then you take over. So it's
not all automated. It's just that first message
in the background is automated again. So you
don't forget about them so they don't fall through
the cracks, but then you can take over as a real
human and start having those conversations and
booking those meetings. So it's nice to really
pair. the two. A lot of times whenever I talk
about automation, people get very sheepish and
they think, oh no, I could never do that because
I have a very human -centric business and people
are going to know and I don't want to come across
sounding like a robot. But there's a beautiful
way that you can pair the two because as a human,
you're limited in your capabilities, right? It's
easy to forget about people. It's easy to get
busy. It's easy to let your nurturing strategy
or your networking strategy fall to the wayside
when client work comes into play. But if you're
pairing that with the tools and systems in the
background, then you know that's taken care of,
that's working for you, and then you can jump
in when it's necessary to have that human touchpoint.
Absolutely. Always keeping that human touchpoint
with you, available, just it's separating you
from AI. And if you do that, people can really...
Notice that. There's a way to tell if you see
an article or something, if it's AI written.
There are certain buzzwords, right? But you have
to keep it more human, more personal. And even
with the advent of AI, I still think this is
much more important. It's more important. When
you walk into a networking event, you like to
feel the vibe of the room. You like to feel the
vibe of the person you're talking to. That's
so important. And keeping in touch with everything
that you've been talking about, that becomes
very, very important. Okay. How do you handle
referrals that aren't a good fit without damaging
the relationship with the person who sent them
your way? Yeah. So this is what's so beautiful
about referrals is that as much as you want to
be getting referrals, you should also be giving
referrals. And so I keep a list of People who
work in a similar space to me, but slightly different,
right? So people who work with maybe clients
that are B2C. I mostly play in the B2B world.
People who work with clients that are a little
smaller than what I would like to work with.
Or the flip side, people that work with big enterprise
companies that I just don't have the manpower
to handle. So I keep lists of... people who work
in adjacent spaces to me that I trust. And then
I can send business to them and or partner with
them. A lot of times we can come in and we can
work together on a project. But the more that
you send business to someone, again, the more
you stay top of mind and the more they're willing
to send that business back to you. And so I've
made some really great partnerships throughout
the years, like I said, with people who work
in an adjacent space, like HubSpot developers.
I have a HubSpot developer. And that's all they
do is build websites on HubSpot. That's not really
where I live. I live more in the sales and marketing
automation space. But of course, there's overlap.
And so anytime my clients have a development
need, I'm saying, hey, you have to talk to this
guy. Anytime his clients have sales and marketing
automation needs, he's saying, hey, you have
to talk to Jazz. And we've built this really
beautiful partnership over the years. And I know
I can trust him. So any prospects or clients
that come to me and need that help. I feel really
confident referring to him and vice versa. So
I would challenge you to build your network,
not just of potential clients, but of also collaborators,
because that's going to help you go farther as
well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Before I ask you
the last question, I ask all of my guests this
very same thing. You've had quite an extensive
background. Four and a half years ago, You decided
to go out on your own. What major mistake have
you made and how have you turned it around? Yeah,
it's a great question. It's so hard because I
think in hindsight, we look back on our mistakes
and we realize how much we've learned from them.
And so I don't even want to call them mistakes
anymore. But so I alluded to it a little bit
at the beginning of our call. I for a while was
hosting networking events for my target audience
and that was a really awesome way for me to build
my pipeline and get my name out there and I was
really enjoying them and the people that were
attending were really enjoying them as well and
I was enjoying them so much so that I thought
why don't I start a second business that is a
networking group. And so I put so much time and
energy into building this networking group. And
I'll tell you, a lot of people do it successfully.
But I found that selling memberships to an online
networking group was one of the most challenging
things I've ever done. And it was very low cost,
but it was just really challenging. And it was
peak COVID times. I think there was a lot of
Zoom fatigue and online networking fatigue going
on. But we built this group. We ran it for two
years. And retention was amazing. And our members
absolutely loved it. But recruitment was such
a slog. And it was really hard for us to get
new members. And at the end of the day, I had
to have some really hard conversations with myself
and with my team to say, hey, this business is
not profitable. It's basically breaking even.
And we have these members who absolutely love
it. And it's really hard for me to make the decision
to shut this down because I know they're going
to be so upset. But I have to think about my
own time and energy and all that we've been putting
into this. And so after two years, we had to
sunset the network and it was. bittersweet, but
I would say that was one of the biggest quote
unquote mistakes. But like I said, I learned
so much from it. There was a lot of mindset shifts
and growth that had to happen throughout that
time. But yeah, that's, that would probably be
my number one. You can't grow unless you have
mistakes, right? Listen, you've been in business
for four and a half years. You know that, Hey,
look, I'm in business. I'm in business. I'm almost
out of business. What do I do? Oh, I got another
client. It's going to keep me afloat. Oh, I'm
out of business. You know, it's going to go up
and down like that until you get all the way
up and it'll serve itself. Okay. Bring this podcast
full circle. If someone listening wants to shift
from a sales heavy model to a referral focused
one, what's the first thing you'd have them change?
Yeah, I would say the biggest thing that you
need to change is number one, your messaging.
And the best way to change your messaging is
just getting yourself out there and just speaking
to people. So you heard me give my little spiel
at the beginning of this podcast where I said.
Agency owners, the shoe bankers kids never have
shoes, and agency owners spend so much time building
their clients' businesses that they rarely have
the time, energy, or focus to work on their own
business. It took me... months to figure out
that's what I needed to say to get the head nods
from people and that is the best way is just
go talk to a bunch of people and really pay attention
to the language that they are using when they
talk about their problems and figure out how
you can repeat that messaging back to them and
once you get to a place where you start talking
about your business and you get that Oh yeah,
I've been there. I totally agree head on from
people. That's when you know you've hit the nail
on the head. You've identified that problem.
And once you have a really solid problem that
you can solve for people, that pain point, that's
when the referrals just start flowing in. Jess,
I want to tell you, this was a great podcast.
You are in such in line with what I talk about,
what I speak about, and what I firmly believe
in. If somebody wants to get hold of you, either
for coaching or to hire you as a consultant or
whatever, what's the best way for them to get
hold of you? Yeah, so you can visit J -A -S -Z
-R -A -E .com. That's jazzray .com. Or you can
find me on LinkedIn, Jazz Ray Joseph. And I would
love to connect in either place. Fantastic. Jazz,
thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
And I hope to see you soon. Amazing. Thank you
so much for having me. This was a great conversation.
I'm happy we got a chance to do it. Well. Hold
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Henry is a global real estate agent with Century
21, celebrating his 41st year in business. No
matter where you're moving, Henry has the right
connections for you. You can contact Henry at
561 -427 -4888. A huge thank you to our guests
for sharing such... insights today. And of course,
a big shout out to you, our amazing listeners,
for tuning in and spending your time with us.
If you're interested in my digital courses, being
coached or having me come and talk to your company,
just go to Michael and fill out the request form.
Remember, networking isn't about being perfect.
It's about being present. So take what you've
learned today, get out there and make some meaningful
connections. If you've enjoyed this episode,
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