WEBVTT 00:00:16.750 --> 00:00:20.510 Welcome to another episode of Networking Unleashed, 00:00:20.570 --> 00:00:23.710 Building Profitable Connections. I'm your host, 00:00:23.850 --> 00:00:26.670 Michael Foreman, and today we're calling out 00:00:26.670 --> 00:00:29.570 the elephant in a room, the illusion of connection 00:00:29.570 --> 00:00:33.469 in the age of screens, scrolls, and social metrics. 00:00:33.770 --> 00:00:37.270 My guest brings a bold perspective on something 00:00:37.270 --> 00:00:40.310 we're all grappling with, how misplaced confidence 00:00:40.310 --> 00:00:44.799 in likes, followers, and digital popularity is 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:48.820 eroding our ability to build meaningful, trusted 00:00:48.820 --> 00:00:52.439 -based relationships. We'll dig into the consequences 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:56.280 of screen addiction, the trap of chasing attention 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:59.979 instead of building credibility, and how news 00:00:59.979 --> 00:01:03.719 feeds, yes, even the well -designed ones, have 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:07.099 hijacked the trust we once gave to real journalists 00:01:07.099 --> 00:01:11.579 and real conversations. So, if you've ever felt 00:01:11.579 --> 00:01:15.409 the pressure to perform online, If you're questioning 00:01:15.409 --> 00:01:18.750 what real influence really looks like, or if 00:01:18.750 --> 00:01:22.170 you're ready to build relationships that don't 00:01:22.170 --> 00:01:25.510 depend on algorithms, this episode is for you. 00:01:25.909 --> 00:01:28.890 It's time to break free from the noise and reclaim 00:01:28.890 --> 00:01:32.349 what connection was always meant to be personal, 00:01:32.530 --> 00:01:37.239 powerful, and profitable. My guest today is Tim 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:40.819 O 'Hearn, and I would like to tell you about 00:01:40.819 --> 00:01:42.939 his background, but I'll probably butcher it, 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.980 so I'm not going to. I will allow Tim to introduce 00:01:45.980 --> 00:01:48.280 himself and give us a taste of his background. 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.299 Tim, good morning. How are you? Good morning, 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:54.500 Michael. I'm good. Good. Give us a little taste 00:01:54.500 --> 00:01:58.579 of your background. I'm a software engineer by 00:01:58.579 --> 00:02:01.159 training, and software engineering as a very 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:03.599 broad discipline has brought me to many different 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.170 places. The most relevant for this conversation 00:02:06.170 --> 00:02:09.490 is that one of my side hustles or side quests, 00:02:09.650 --> 00:02:12.110 if you will, was involved with the Instagram 00:02:12.110 --> 00:02:15.469 underworld. So I built automation systems that 00:02:15.469 --> 00:02:19.069 got people more followers on. That's great. I'm 00:02:19.069 --> 00:02:21.090 sure a lot of people are very interested in what 00:02:21.090 --> 00:02:23.830 you had to do. Okay, so let's delve right into 00:02:23.830 --> 00:02:27.069 a couple of questions. We live in a world where 00:02:27.069 --> 00:02:31.539 likes feel like validation. How do social metrics 00:02:31.539 --> 00:02:34.819 distort the way people approach real networking? 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.800 It's very complicated because we always need 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.740 something. We need some indication of this measure 00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:47.280 of social proof. Whether that's in the real world, 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:49.460 there are certain things we look to establish 00:02:49.460 --> 00:02:53.039 someone at a very short introduction. In the 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:55.500 same way, in the digital world, we don't have 00:02:55.500 --> 00:02:58.610 time to look through someone's post history, 00:02:58.810 --> 00:03:01.930 someone's friends, someone's interactions, we 00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:04.810 need something instantly. And what we found, 00:03:04.949 --> 00:03:07.930 at least since the days of MySpace, is that we 00:03:07.930 --> 00:03:12.009 can look to metrics such as friend count to understand 00:03:12.009 --> 00:03:15.370 this. And once we went with this follower following 00:03:15.370 --> 00:03:18.129 model, which we saw on Instagram, we started 00:03:18.129 --> 00:03:22.210 to say, this person is more important, authoritative, 00:03:22.430 --> 00:03:26.189 authentic, if they have more followers. And that's 00:03:26.189 --> 00:03:29.870 what it all comes down to. Okay, can you talk 00:03:29.870 --> 00:03:33.069 about the difference between digital visibility 00:03:33.069 --> 00:03:36.349 and actual influence and why they're not the 00:03:36.349 --> 00:03:41.409 same thing? When you reduce influence or popularity 00:03:41.409 --> 00:03:44.949 to these metrics, you are trusting the platform 00:03:44.949 --> 00:03:48.509 or the user who has the metrics implicitly. So 00:03:48.509 --> 00:03:51.650 if I come on your podcast and I say, hey, I'm 00:03:51.650 --> 00:03:55.960 Tim, I have 100 ,000 followers. you have really 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:59.379 no way to validate that every one of those 100 00:03:59.379 --> 00:04:02.939 ,000 followers is a real person. And if you did, 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:04.979 it would take an outrageous amount of time. You 00:04:04.979 --> 00:04:07.039 would basically need a team of private investigators. 00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:11.080 It makes no sense. So we place trust in these, 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:13.900 some baseline trust, but what we find is that 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:17.000 it doesn't necessarily represent real people 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:21.720 or an engaged audience. For example, you may 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:25.550 have... 20 ,000 followers, subscribers on YouTube, 00:04:25.649 --> 00:04:29.230 but maybe they subscribed 20 years ago or 15 00:04:29.230 --> 00:04:31.850 years ago and they don't watch the videos. So 00:04:31.850 --> 00:04:34.730 while it might at a glance look like importance, 00:04:34.970 --> 00:04:37.189 if we don't see those people actually engaging 00:04:37.189 --> 00:04:39.569 and buying into the current day messaging, then 00:04:39.569 --> 00:04:43.410 it's almost as if they're not there at all. Okay. 00:04:43.490 --> 00:04:48.649 So how has screen dependence changed the way 00:04:48.649 --> 00:04:52.250 we listen, connect, or even show up? in conversations. 00:04:54.490 --> 00:04:57.730 It's really undermined what I think you've preached 00:04:57.730 --> 00:05:00.089 a lot in your work and your appearances where 00:05:00.089 --> 00:05:02.730 we talk about public speaking. And then within 00:05:02.730 --> 00:05:04.910 public speaking, we also have this notion of 00:05:04.910 --> 00:05:08.129 just social interaction, which has things like 00:05:08.129 --> 00:05:11.449 how to make eye contact, how to structure sentences, 00:05:11.750 --> 00:05:14.790 like how to have a normal bilateral conversation 00:05:14.790 --> 00:05:18.370 or discussion. When we look to what screens have 00:05:18.370 --> 00:05:21.699 done to society, there's no way that I could 00:05:21.699 --> 00:05:24.259 have captured it all in a book, but I tried my 00:05:24.259 --> 00:05:28.980 best. The issues have really been magnified by 00:05:28.980 --> 00:05:32.560 cell phones. So the original issue, which was 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.560 captured in books such as The Shallows, What 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.160 the Internet is Doing to Our Brains, is that 00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:41.860 Because we could rely on the internet and search 00:05:41.860 --> 00:05:44.920 engines in general, it was pretty easy to just 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:47.899 only know what you had to Google search. And 00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:49.680 that was the extent of your knowledge. And then 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:51.439 you knew what to search. You could look at those 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:55.399 results and figure it out. But today, because 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.019 we have these tools and more advanced tools, 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:00.879 obviously, in the AI space, and we have it on 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:04.420 our phones, the question becomes, do we really 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:07.779 have to think at all? And so when we think about 00:06:07.779 --> 00:06:11.339 social relationships and public speaking, marketing, 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:13.540 when we think about different ways that we express 00:06:13.540 --> 00:06:16.160 ourselves, everything has become completely different. 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.220 And nowadays, the people we're looking to as 00:06:20.220 --> 00:06:22.860 these kind of tastemakers or thought leaders, 00:06:22.980 --> 00:06:26.360 even in the speaking space, are influenced by 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:29.779 short form content, which I can say is even very 00:06:29.779 --> 00:06:32.699 divergent from what I grew up admiring and learning 00:06:32.699 --> 00:06:36.639 from. Yeah, you know, you've said so many important 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.420 things, and I want to hit on every single one 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:42.180 of them, but we'd be here for three hours. I 00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:45.139 really feel that ever since the pandemic, this 00:06:45.139 --> 00:06:48.560 has gotten even worse because people rely on 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:52.540 the Zoom, the cell phones, and people, if you 00:06:52.540 --> 00:06:54.939 ask them a question, they immediately go to their 00:06:54.939 --> 00:06:57.459 cell phone and they look it up. They say, no, 00:06:57.459 --> 00:07:00.939 that's really not quite correct. Or whereas before, 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:03.680 you had a little bit of leeway, but... It just 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.839 really, it's like instant gratification. And 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:12.560 people are trying to keep that instant gratification. 00:07:12.860 --> 00:07:16.759 And I think it's more so with the 20 and 30 -somethings 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:20.379 that they always, it's like the phone is tethered 00:07:20.379 --> 00:07:24.439 to their bodies. The 40 -somethings and 50 -somethings, 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:28.180 60 -somethings, such as me, don't rely on it 00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:31.129 so much. but it's all what you're talking about. 00:07:31.290 --> 00:07:33.829 And you mentioned a book. Did you write a book? 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:37.490 Yes. The Shallows is not the book that I wrote, 00:07:37.529 --> 00:07:40.269 but my book published earlier this year is called 00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:43.310 Framed, A Villain's Perspective on Social Media. 00:07:43.509 --> 00:07:46.829 And it addresses my story of growing up with 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:49.149 the internet. So having been born in the 90s. 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:52.259 learning how to actually write software, so to 00:07:52.259 --> 00:07:54.819 become a software engineer, and then to create 00:07:54.819 --> 00:07:58.180 bots that earned me money, but that also caused 00:07:58.180 --> 00:08:02.120 chaos or disruption on social media platforms. 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.139 Then it's all wrapped in this shell of, now I 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:07.360 have to deal with the consequences. Not to say 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.279 that I was the primary villain here, but I was 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:12.459 definitely an enemy. And now I have to deal with 00:08:12.459 --> 00:08:15.120 the consequences of living with an internet that 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.579 is so different from the one I grew up admiring. 00:08:18.699 --> 00:08:22.100 Okay, good. I wanted to get your book in here 00:08:22.100 --> 00:08:25.100 somehow so you can talk about it, and hopefully 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:27.459 everybody will take a look at it and read it. 00:08:27.699 --> 00:08:31.259 What advice do you have for professionals who 00:08:31.259 --> 00:08:35.700 want to build genuine connections but feel addicted 00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:40.539 to online engagement? This is a really important 00:08:40.539 --> 00:08:43.549 point. It's something that I added to the book 00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:46.730 almost as this bolt -on chapter. And the chapter 00:08:46.730 --> 00:08:50.070 is called Getting Good. What I address in that 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:52.990 chapter is considering the thousands of customers 00:08:52.990 --> 00:08:56.149 I had when I worked at this social media startup 00:08:56.149 --> 00:08:58.309 called Shark Social, where we were getting people 00:08:58.309 --> 00:09:01.309 more followers. Every one of these customers... 00:09:01.610 --> 00:09:04.149 gave us a little bit of a backstory of why they 00:09:04.149 --> 00:09:06.590 signed up and what they were looking to do and 00:09:06.590 --> 00:09:08.830 of course we can make assumptions generally they 00:09:08.830 --> 00:09:11.210 equated more followers with more success how 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:15.070 we started this episode but really like when 00:09:15.070 --> 00:09:17.830 it all comes down to it we found that a lot of 00:09:17.830 --> 00:09:21.149 these behaviors just came down to baseline addiction 00:09:21.149 --> 00:09:24.669 so many business owners you think it's a single 00:09:24.669 --> 00:09:26.889 person they have their phone they have their 00:09:26.889 --> 00:09:28.970 personal account Then they create their business 00:09:28.970 --> 00:09:31.590 account. And we found that many of them were 00:09:31.590 --> 00:09:34.309 falling into this trap where they would just 00:09:34.309 --> 00:09:37.029 scroll all day except on their business account 00:09:37.029 --> 00:09:39.870 because they found that was maybe helping them 00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:41.970 with competitive intelligence. It was helping 00:09:41.970 --> 00:09:44.230 them run their business better where you or I 00:09:44.230 --> 00:09:47.509 could probably agree that you very quickly reach 00:09:47.509 --> 00:09:49.610 the point of diminishing returns. So there's 00:09:49.610 --> 00:09:52.289 a very strong relationship between these addictive 00:09:52.289 --> 00:09:55.429 behaviors and then also pitfalls in the business 00:09:55.429 --> 00:09:59.269 space. especially for sole proprietors. Good. 00:09:59.409 --> 00:10:03.309 Speaking as a sole proprietor myself, I own brick 00:10:03.309 --> 00:10:07.190 and mortar businesses beforehand. It's very important 00:10:07.190 --> 00:10:11.049 to me to keep my brand up and I need to see what 00:10:11.049 --> 00:10:14.570 other public speakers are doing, but they're 00:10:14.570 --> 00:10:17.210 not necessarily competition. It's more because 00:10:17.210 --> 00:10:21.850 it's like a family and we just like to keep up 00:10:21.850 --> 00:10:24.350 on everybody so we see what everybody's doing. 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.480 But yes, that's a very good point. Okay. What 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:32.100 impact do you think news feeds, as well as algorithm 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:35.899 -driven design, have had on our ability to trust 00:10:35.899 --> 00:10:40.519 people and conversations? We can look at the 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:43.379 name of the feature and start to draw back some 00:10:43.379 --> 00:10:46.299 of the consequences of this design and what we 00:10:46.299 --> 00:10:48.720 would say are even dark patterns involved with 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.309 the implementation. When Facebook came out with 00:10:52.309 --> 00:10:56.750 this concept of a news feed, I believe that they 00:10:56.750 --> 00:10:59.730 co -opted the trust that we had as Americans 00:10:59.730 --> 00:11:04.110 in newscasters of the 20th century. So what I'm 00:11:04.110 --> 00:11:07.149 saying there is that we have this baseline trust 00:11:07.149 --> 00:11:10.730 for news and how we get news. And of course, 00:11:10.750 --> 00:11:13.169 today, that's very different. But the truth is 00:11:13.169 --> 00:11:15.389 that going into the new millennium, like we had 00:11:15.389 --> 00:11:19.139 very high trust for national newscasters, local 00:11:19.139 --> 00:11:24.299 newscasters, etc. When we moved from a chronological 00:11:24.299 --> 00:11:27.240 feed, meaning every piece of content that anyone 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:29.700 posts, you just see it in chronological order. 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.399 When we moved from that to something that was 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.480 constructed more intelligently, we started to 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.500 use the term newsfeed to represent it. And in 00:11:38.500 --> 00:11:41.100 that case, you start seeing ads and you also 00:11:41.100 --> 00:11:44.649 start seeing content from other sources. The 00:11:44.649 --> 00:11:47.629 issue with that is as more and more people began 00:11:47.629 --> 00:11:50.409 to use social media, they would log on their 00:11:50.409 --> 00:11:54.129 first day and say, oh, because this content is 00:11:54.129 --> 00:11:57.750 at the top of my page, it must be more trustworthy. 00:11:57.950 --> 00:12:02.129 It must be true. It must be the most important 00:12:02.129 --> 00:12:05.450 thing for me to see today. And it's a very unique, 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:09.549 I would say, like hijacking of the trust we would 00:12:09.549 --> 00:12:12.509 typically have. Even when you think about print 00:12:12.509 --> 00:12:15.029 news, you open a newspaper and what do you have? 00:12:15.250 --> 00:12:18.429 You have the main headline. When we look at website 00:12:18.429 --> 00:12:22.669 design today or the algorithmic feeds, you do 00:12:22.669 --> 00:12:25.070 tend to look at the top first. And we find a 00:12:25.070 --> 00:12:27.309 lot of news sites today are designed the same 00:12:27.309 --> 00:12:30.870 as newspapers were in the 1800s. So I think that 00:12:30.870 --> 00:12:34.610 the news feeds just by name suggest this co -opting 00:12:34.610 --> 00:12:37.730 of trust. And then a lot of the more underhanded 00:12:37.730 --> 00:12:40.129 software -based stuff that goes on in exactly 00:12:40.129 --> 00:12:43.490 how they're constructed. is a huge problem that 00:12:43.490 --> 00:12:46.190 nobody can unravel because not one person even 00:12:46.190 --> 00:12:52.909 knows how it works. True. Very true. Okay. Speaking 00:12:52.909 --> 00:12:57.090 of mistakes, do you think people are mistaking 00:12:57.090 --> 00:13:01.289 online presence for credibility? And how can 00:13:01.289 --> 00:13:05.090 we use help? How can we help our audiences to 00:13:05.090 --> 00:13:09.409 reframe that mindset? There are two sides to 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:12.450 this coin. There's no doubt about it. No matter 00:13:12.450 --> 00:13:15.909 what you're doing, there is this pressure to 00:13:15.909 --> 00:13:19.570 be online and to have some presence to support 00:13:19.570 --> 00:13:23.490 it. Even with my book, one of the ironic parts 00:13:23.490 --> 00:13:25.970 about my book is that people say, oh, you did 00:13:25.970 --> 00:13:29.169 all this. Why aren't you on Instagram? And I'm 00:13:29.169 --> 00:13:30.889 not on Instagram because I've had hundreds of 00:13:30.889 --> 00:13:33.210 accounts banned on Instagram and I'm not allowed 00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:36.610 to have one. But in the more general sense, there 00:13:36.610 --> 00:13:39.669 is this pervasive idea that you must be online 00:13:39.669 --> 00:13:42.470 and that it's important to construct who you 00:13:42.470 --> 00:13:45.789 are or what you're saying you're doing in your 00:13:45.789 --> 00:13:49.230 craft or your business with your online persona. 00:13:49.570 --> 00:13:52.049 And I think that's becoming more and more difficult 00:13:52.049 --> 00:13:55.009 where everything's saturated, right? So like 00:13:55.009 --> 00:13:57.389 for me, There's thousands of authors trying to 00:13:57.389 --> 00:13:59.690 do the same thing. In the book review space, 00:13:59.870 --> 00:14:01.789 there's thousands of people just reviewing books. 00:14:02.090 --> 00:14:05.629 So to introduce yourself here and to say, I'm 00:14:05.629 --> 00:14:09.710 not an influencer who created a product. I'm 00:14:09.710 --> 00:14:12.950 a writer who now has to be on social media so 00:14:12.950 --> 00:14:15.070 I can connect with fans and people who are interested 00:14:15.070 --> 00:14:17.429 in it. I think it's really important for a business 00:14:17.429 --> 00:14:20.970 owner, for a musician and entertainer, any type 00:14:20.970 --> 00:14:23.549 of personality to understand what the balance 00:14:23.549 --> 00:14:26.480 is between what they're getting from social media 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:30.500 and what they're providing via their craft. For 00:14:30.500 --> 00:14:34.399 me, I'm like 90 % on my craft, which is writing 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:36.860 and hopefully developing some speaking ability 00:14:36.860 --> 00:14:40.379 as well. And maybe 10 % on, yes, I have a little 00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:43.120 bit of a hustle with my newsletter website and 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:47.860 other social media profiles. You can really say 00:14:47.860 --> 00:14:54.419 that the average businessman, excuse me. The 00:14:54.419 --> 00:14:57.379 average business person with a brick -and -mortar 00:14:57.379 --> 00:15:00.740 store needs an online presence, okay, because 00:15:00.740 --> 00:15:04.960 they want to sell their product more than locally. 00:15:05.460 --> 00:15:09.519 Now, somebody such as myself, I have a website 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.980 and everything, and I want to sell nationally 00:15:11.980 --> 00:15:15.179 because I'm selling myself, and I travel to different 00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:27.450 parts. business come together. Do I make myself 00:15:27.450 --> 00:15:30.289 clear? Yes. Okay. You really have to find that 00:15:30.289 --> 00:15:33.649 balance. And some people who just want to do 00:15:33.649 --> 00:15:36.649 business online, that's a whole different ballgame. 00:15:36.769 --> 00:15:40.669 That's everything. Okay. So enough of that. What 00:15:40.669 --> 00:15:44.190 warning signs should we look at for when digital 00:15:44.190 --> 00:15:48.509 networking starts replacing real world relationship 00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:54.179 building? I think The more we insert technology 00:15:54.179 --> 00:15:58.159 into this socialization, that becomes more of 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:01.440 a warning sign. And the more, I don't wanna say 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.179 it's a prescient one, but the more pressing warning 00:16:04.179 --> 00:16:08.139 is when we're starting to use AI for all types 00:16:08.139 --> 00:16:11.840 of interaction. So even in the last year, the 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:16.600 amount of AI driven or AI augmented emails I 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:19.990 get is scary. but what's scarier is when you 00:16:19.990 --> 00:16:23.110 already have a relationship with someone and 00:16:23.110 --> 00:16:25.590 then they're using ai to carry it out and they're 00:16:25.590 --> 00:16:28.789 using a scheduler and you're like oh that's interesting 00:16:28.789 --> 00:16:31.789 it's exactly 30 days after we last had contact 00:16:31.789 --> 00:16:35.590 all this wrap up between automation and ai it's 00:16:35.590 --> 00:16:38.450 not the digit it's not like making it digital 00:16:38.450 --> 00:16:41.049 that is the problem it's then inserting all these 00:16:41.049 --> 00:16:44.669 tools that actually remove the the human element 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.840 And maybe even the basic one, like the most generic, 00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:51.080 is how much easier it is to remember someone's 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:55.179 birthday today compared to 10 or 15 years ago, 00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:57.899 right? Like that used to be the trick of the 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:00.799 trade for anyone who was in sales or any relationship 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.879 -based business. You have a calendar and you 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.079 actually mark people's birthdays. And it takes 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.359 some effort to push those birthdays from one 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.240 calendar year to another. Now, on your Google 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:13.559 calendar, you can just say, okay, this is this 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:15.900 person's birthday. I found it on Facebook. I 00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:18.339 found it on LinkedIn. And let's just make it 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:21.119 recur every year and make sure I wish this person 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:24.240 a happy birthday. So I think, not to say that's 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.759 disingenuous, but technology has helped a lot. 00:17:26.900 --> 00:17:29.160 A lot of people now are leaning on it too much 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:31.940 in ways that their actions in the real world 00:17:31.940 --> 00:17:35.819 are not reflective. I see the difference between 00:17:35.819 --> 00:17:41.339 AI and just using a CRM. OK, to help your business. 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:44.380 And because I'm guilty of that also, I put it 00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:47.619 all the information I can about a prospective 00:17:47.619 --> 00:17:52.059 or current client into my CRM. So I don't have 00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:54.460 to think about that. So I'm thinking about other 00:17:54.460 --> 00:17:57.779 things. And when it comes up as my daily feed, 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.299 I'll say, oh, I have to wish this person a happy 00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:04.299 birthday. I write them a happy birthday. I don't 00:18:04.299 --> 00:18:08.250 have my CRM write it for me. Okay, so it's like 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:12.410 in the middle. But I think a person in business 00:18:12.410 --> 00:18:17.130 today needs a very good CRM. And whether or not 00:18:17.130 --> 00:18:21.369 they rely on AI, that's really up to them. But 00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:25.299 I am looking more into the personal. relationships, 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:28.240 the personal networking, the meeting of the people 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.220 one -on -one, so you can feel the vibe of the 00:18:31.220 --> 00:18:34.180 person, the vibe of the room. You can actually 00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:36.700 get the feeling when you walk into a networking 00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:39.500 event, there's nothing like it. There's nothing 00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:42.700 like feeling that vibe. And when you do everything 00:18:42.700 --> 00:18:45.779 online or through AI, you lose it. You lose all 00:18:45.779 --> 00:18:48.359 that. Yeah, I would say there is an important 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.880 distinction to be made between CRM -like actions, 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:54.240 which we would say are almost universally helpful, 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:57.900 and then too much AI where AI is doing the thinking 00:18:57.900 --> 00:19:00.420 for you. It's telling you how to feel and how 00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:02.460 to make other people feel. So that's a good shout. 00:19:02.619 --> 00:19:07.279 I agree 100%. Okay, how can business owners and 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.940 entrepreneurs use social media effectively without 00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:14.519 falling into the trap of digital vanity metrics? 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:20.940 Organic connections are still very viable. There's 00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:23.920 this emerging philosophy that to be successful 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.799 today, all you really need is a dedicated fan 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:31.059 base of 100 people. And another podcast host 00:19:31.059 --> 00:19:33.599 actually introduced me to this idea. And they're 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.779 like, would you rather 100 people who you know 00:19:35.779 --> 00:19:38.140 you can count on? Or would you rather maybe 5000 00:19:38.140 --> 00:19:40.599 on a mailing list who you don't even really know 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:43.019 who they are? And I thought about this a lot. 00:19:43.420 --> 00:19:45.740 especially as it was related to the promotion 00:19:45.740 --> 00:19:49.579 and debut of my book. And it's absolutely true 00:19:49.579 --> 00:19:52.460 in that when we start thinking about starting 00:19:52.460 --> 00:19:54.660 a business and how we can do our best today, 00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:58.420 the idea of organic interactions is really important. 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:00.859 And for me with the book, that means reaching 00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:03.839 out to people like you and saying, Hey, I actually 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.559 listened to your podcasts. I am familiar with 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.900 these guests. And here's my product. Would you 00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:13.400 like a free copy? And that's about as genuine 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.140 as you can get in today's world. It's actually 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:18.599 accelerated by the fact that. I could send you 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:20.660 a digital copy of my book and you could have 00:20:20.660 --> 00:20:23.359 it today. So that's been really helpful compared 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:26.759 to just shotgunning cold emails, feeling entitled 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:29.380 to somebody buying your product or converting. 00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:31.819 When you remove a lot of these marketing terms 00:20:31.819 --> 00:20:34.140 and you just start thinking about how would I 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:36.839 like to be interacted with, that's the best way. 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:39.480 And like I said, the other side of this is that 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:41.680 now that I've had more appearances, now that 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.319 the book is selling, it's currently a number 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:46.900 one bestseller on Kindle. I get emails almost 00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:51.779 every day. And usually one each day will be detailed 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.220 to the point where the person knows me. And they're 00:20:54.220 --> 00:20:56.559 like, hey, I saw your appearance here. I read 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:59.279 chapter seven of your book here. This is why 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.859 I think you'd be a good fit for my podcast. So 00:21:01.859 --> 00:21:04.259 I'm thinking I'm reaching out on one end. These 00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:05.839 people are reaching out to me on the other end. 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:08.539 This is what the internet was supposed to be. 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:10.940 We just have to clear through a lot of the other, 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:14.119 a lot of the other fluff. Yeah. And trying to 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.849 get through it is a whole nother story, but As 00:21:17.849 --> 00:21:19.890 when we think we're making a little headway, 00:21:19.950 --> 00:21:22.650 it's getting more and more cloudy because more 00:21:22.650 --> 00:21:25.670 and more things are getting in our way. So it's 00:21:25.670 --> 00:21:28.569 becoming increasingly more difficult to do that. 00:21:28.730 --> 00:21:31.450 Okay. And that's where keeping the one -on -one 00:21:31.450 --> 00:21:35.890 is very important. Okay. What role does curation 00:21:35.890 --> 00:21:40.349 play in how we form trust today? And how can 00:21:40.349 --> 00:21:44.329 we shift from a curated persona to a credible 00:21:44.329 --> 00:21:49.109 presence? Sometimes they are one in the same 00:21:49.109 --> 00:21:52.549 because there's a difference between you have 00:21:52.549 --> 00:21:56.289 this idea of discretion where maybe the realist 00:21:56.289 --> 00:22:00.029 or most authentic Tim O 'Hearn would be showing 00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:03.829 you my entire schedule every day rather than 00:22:03.829 --> 00:22:06.269 just the curated part, right? The highlights. 00:22:06.910 --> 00:22:09.869 But does anybody really want to know that I woke 00:22:09.869 --> 00:22:12.910 up at 6am this morning and ran 10 miles? Maybe. 00:22:13.390 --> 00:22:15.690 But it has nothing to do with me like appearing 00:22:15.690 --> 00:22:18.789 on a podcast or honestly selling a book. So even 00:22:18.789 --> 00:22:21.349 though that would be realer, there's still this 00:22:21.349 --> 00:22:25.369 idea that I don't want to clog your feed with 00:22:25.369 --> 00:22:28.789 parts of me that are perhaps not as permanent 00:22:28.789 --> 00:22:31.369 or as relevant to the persona. Part of it is 00:22:31.369 --> 00:22:33.950 saying you need to choose what you want to do. 00:22:34.049 --> 00:22:36.250 And if it's overall, you're selling a lifestyle, 00:22:36.490 --> 00:22:39.920 then show your lifestyle. But for me. I really 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.039 am just selling a book and some of the outgrowths 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:44.480 of that. So thinking about being a little bit 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:48.099 more precise there and saying, okay, I'm also 00:22:48.099 --> 00:22:50.160 a sports journalist and I'm also a fairly competitive 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.319 runner. I can't come on podcasts and preach all 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.180 of this at the same time because it sounds ridiculous. 00:22:56.170 --> 00:22:58.549 If I really want to, I would have to create different 00:22:58.549 --> 00:23:01.190 accounts on different sites, or even we see YouTubers 00:23:01.190 --> 00:23:03.609 who have two or three different channels. That 00:23:03.609 --> 00:23:05.769 purpose can be served. So yeah, I think it's 00:23:05.769 --> 00:23:08.349 a delicate balance between what an audience wants 00:23:08.349 --> 00:23:10.849 and then coming up with it. Because as for a 00:23:10.849 --> 00:23:14.750 writer, how do I actually give consistent content 00:23:14.750 --> 00:23:17.910 to someone? If I'm writing another book, it might 00:23:17.910 --> 00:23:20.089 take me another two years. So what am I going 00:23:20.089 --> 00:23:22.490 to do? Release a chapter every couple months? 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:24.859 Sometimes it doesn't make sense. So depending 00:23:24.859 --> 00:23:27.400 on the content or what you're doing, it's not 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:31.480 necessary to have a daily update or even a weekly 00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.200 update. So it depends with what you're kind of 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:35.960 receiving there. And those are some ways you 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:38.779 could do it with splitting the channel. That's 00:23:38.779 --> 00:23:42.960 great. As I'm listening to you, you've been through 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.609 a lot. Okay, you did your software engineering 00:23:47.609 --> 00:23:50.289 and you create this whole thing with social media 00:23:50.289 --> 00:23:53.829 and you made a ton of mistakes that you had to 00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:56.490 either pay for or work through or anything else. 00:23:56.710 --> 00:24:00.910 Can you give us your biggest mistake and how 00:24:00.910 --> 00:24:06.130 you work through it? Yes, or perhaps my biggest 00:24:06.130 --> 00:24:10.789 regret. When we look at Framed and what I'm talking 00:24:10.789 --> 00:24:14.400 about, the kernel of the book is saying, i stumbled 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.980 into the instagram growth space right before 00:24:17.980 --> 00:24:22.099 its heyday i learned all the techniques needed 00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:26.339 on the software systems automation api hacking 00:24:26.339 --> 00:24:28.480 i learned everything technical that i needed 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:31.960 to know we picked up all the business parts as 00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:36.539 we went if my book is to be believed and i'm 00:24:36.539 --> 00:24:41.339 not a liar about my profit margin about the customers 00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:44.480 about the conversions about the stickiness my 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.480 biggest regret has to be not just quitting my 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:52.380 day job and going all in on shark social finding 00:24:52.380 --> 00:24:55.940 out years later that our competitors were making 00:24:55.940 --> 00:24:58.980 10 times as much per month would have been the 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:02.059 difference between me not having to work today 00:25:02.059 --> 00:25:05.720 and me still working today so it has to be saying 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.500 that I was doing almost everything at the same 00:25:08.500 --> 00:25:10.480 level. We had the search engine optimization. 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.480 Everything was good, but we actually just didn't 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.039 have the maturity to know how big the pie was. 00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:21.059 And we didn't go, a team of three of us, all 00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:23.680 of us were doing other things. And we just never 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.380 really went into it. The benefit maybe to everyone 00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:30.799 listening now is that You got a book out of it. 00:25:30.819 --> 00:25:34.359 And it's very unlikely that I face legal action 00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:36.640 because I was such a small player and it happened 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:38.839 so many years ago. But that's definitely one 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.319 regret we have to look at in that it was a mistake. 00:25:41.380 --> 00:25:44.220 We were naive and we were blinded by money that 00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:46.599 was paying our rent when we were 23 years old. 00:25:47.619 --> 00:25:50.819 Do you ever think about going back into that 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:54.640 realm? I do. And there have been some temptations 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.920 where there's this difference between easy money. 00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:01.400 And some of these newfangled, oh, we'll do AI 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:04.400 for this and AI for that. What people don't realize 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.339 in a lot of these zero to one businesses, meaning 00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:09.000 you're creating a new business segment, you're 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.660 doing actual innovation. It's very hard and it 00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:16.420 takes a lot of money. When you're in this gray 00:26:16.420 --> 00:26:20.539 area, terms of service violation space, there 00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:24.059 is a high risk of just outright failure. But 00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:28.109 the cost. is relatively low. And people like 00:26:28.109 --> 00:26:31.750 me working on a small team can do it in a bootstrapped 00:26:31.750 --> 00:26:33.710 manner, meaning we don't need to raise money. 00:26:33.829 --> 00:26:35.910 We could just start it up and see what sticks. 00:26:36.170 --> 00:26:39.970 So I still am tempted to do it, even though in 00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:41.829 the Instagram space, it's really not possible. 00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:45.470 Right now, it seems it's most common on LinkedIn. 00:26:46.289 --> 00:26:48.269 actually, people have approached me and said, 00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:50.769 Hey, do you want to do this and that? And I said, 00:26:50.809 --> 00:26:52.990 Yeah, it would be quite quite ironic for me to 00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:55.190 have written the book in the way I did. And then 00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:57.170 to just be doing the shady stuff on the side. 00:26:57.269 --> 00:27:00.569 But I think it's a matter of when times are rough, 00:27:00.650 --> 00:27:02.789 if it is a time of famine, and I really needed 00:27:02.789 --> 00:27:05.730 to eat, so to speak, that is where I would go. 00:27:05.829 --> 00:27:07.829 And that's where I think we see some of the smartest 00:27:07.829 --> 00:27:10.609 people who maybe are willing to compromise their 00:27:10.609 --> 00:27:14.079 values and risk take legal risks, because it 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.240 is quite profitable for what you are risking 00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:20.759 and you're not creating the next Facebook. You're 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:22.880 just creating a really useful tool that essentially 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:26.839 leeches off one of these platforms. Okay. Okay. 00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:30.339 So let's bring this podcast full circle. Looking 00:27:30.339 --> 00:27:34.720 ahead, what habits should we build now to ensure 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.059 our networking efforts are rooted in trust and 00:27:38.059 --> 00:27:43.079 not just technology? Getting to know the person 00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:46.140 on the other end of the screen is really important. 00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:50.059 And for me, I can give the evidence of promoting 00:27:50.059 --> 00:27:53.279 the book, doing podcast appearances, treating 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.319 people like humans rather than sales leads is 00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:00.500 really important. Taking the extra few minutes 00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:03.920 to get to know them and to read their work is 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.880 paramount. For me, I've pitched my book to everyone 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:10.519 from scoundrels who I used to work with to journalists. 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.880 and also to academics i've had relative success 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.480 in every one of these realms of pitching the 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:19.359 book to people and even getting good feedback 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:21.599 on the book but when you're pitching an academic 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.640 sometimes you have to actually read their paper 00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:28.000 and that's not a five minute thing so it's saying 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.559 if you believe in what you're doing what you're 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.400 selling perhaps it means actually taking the 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:35.440 time to know who's on the other side of the screen 00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:37.819 And that means respecting their feelings, but 00:28:37.819 --> 00:28:40.220 it also means reaching a much greater understanding 00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:42.740 of what they're bringing to the table and why 00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:46.039 the outreach is even relevant to them. That's 00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:48.680 great. Tim, I can probably talk to you for another 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.839 two hours because it's so interesting in what 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.579 you're saying, but due to time restraints, we 00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:58.380 cannot do it. But how can somebody get hold of 00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:00.779 you? What's the best way for them to get hold 00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:03.759 of you, either to ask a question for your book 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.269 or... want to know more about you, how can they 00:29:06.269 --> 00:29:10.349 do it? I'm on LinkedIn, one of the few platforms 00:29:10.349 --> 00:29:13.170 where I have no restrictions. So I'm Tim O 'Hearn 00:29:13.170 --> 00:29:16.950 on LinkedIn. Everyone looking to read my book 00:29:16.950 --> 00:29:19.369 or learn more about it, it is listed on Amazon. 00:29:19.509 --> 00:29:21.990 So Framed, A Villain's Perspective on Social 00:29:21.990 --> 00:29:25.670 Media, ebook, as well as paperback. And the audio 00:29:25.670 --> 00:29:29.269 book is coming later this summer. Okay, that's 00:29:29.269 --> 00:29:32.319 great. Tim, again. Thank you very much for coming 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:35.660 on my podcast. I hope everybody listening actually 00:29:35.660 --> 00:29:39.339 listened to the podcast, pick up his book, read 00:29:39.339 --> 00:29:41.500 it, and maybe you might learn something about 00:29:41.500 --> 00:29:46.259 social media. Okay, so Tim, have a great day. 00:29:46.579 --> 00:29:53.599 Thanks, Michael. Well, hold on, folks. Don't 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.039 go anywhere. Let's hear from our sponsors. David 00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:00.509 Neal, co -founder, Revved Up Kids. Revved Up 00:30:00.509 --> 00:30:03.329 Kids is on a mission to protect children and 00:30:03.329 --> 00:30:07.309 teens from sexual abuse, exploitation, and trafficking. 00:30:07.589 --> 00:30:10.769 They provide prevention training programs for 00:30:10.769 --> 00:30:14.329 children, teens, and adults. To learn more, go 00:30:14.329 --> 00:30:18.710 to revvedupkids .org. Henry Kaplan, Century 21. 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:21.440 When it comes to making the biggest financial 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.380 decision of your life, leave it in the hands 00:30:24.380 --> 00:30:27.720 of a proven professional, Henry Kaplan. Henry 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:30.900 is a global real estate agent with Century 21, 00:30:31.099 --> 00:30:35.059 celebrating his 41st year in business. No matter 00:30:35.059 --> 00:30:37.759 where you're moving, Henry has the right connections 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:44.740 for you. You can contact Henry at 561 -427 -4888. 00:30:48.859 --> 00:30:52.180 insights today. And of course, a big shout out 00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:55.480 to you, our amazing listeners, for tuning in 00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:58.400 and spending your time with us. If you're interested 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:01.740 in my digital courses, being coached or having 00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:04.880 me come and talk to your company, just go to 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.099 Michael and fill out the request form. Remember, 00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:11.740 networking isn't about being perfect. It's about 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:14.660 being present. So take what you've learned today, 00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:17.460 get out there and make some meaningful connections. 00:31:18.190 --> 00:31:21.109 If you've enjoyed this episode, please don't 00:31:21.109 --> 00:31:24.450 forget to subscribe. Leave us a review and share 00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:26.650 it with someone who could use a little networking 00:31:26.650 --> 00:31:29.670 inspiration. Let's keep the conversation going. 00:31:29.849 --> 00:31:34.390 You can find me on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, YouTube, 00:31:34.529 --> 00:31:39.170 or my website, foreman .com slash podcasts.