Welcome back to Networking Unleashed, Building
Profitable Connections. I'm your host, Michael
Foreman, speaker, strategist, and believer that
meaningful relationships drive real results.
Today's conversation is going to challenge you
to think about connection, because while most
people play it safe when it comes to networking,
real growth, real community, starts with a little
risk. Didn't read that, but that's right. My
guest today is someone who understands that connection,
doesn't thrive in comfort zones. We're diving
into why risk is essential. I'm sorry. We're
diving into why risk is an essential ingredient
in community building. I don't know what's going
on with my talking today and how too often overlooked
strengths. Vulnerability and curiosity can transform
not only how we network, but how we lead, collaborate,
and grow. If you ever hesitated to reach out,
share your story, or start that bold conversation,
this episode is going to speak directly to you.
So let's get into it. I'd like to introduce today
David Holman. He's got quite a background, and
I swear I'll just butcher it if I try it, because
today my tongue is absolutely in knots. But David,
hello, welcome to the podcast, and give us a
little bit about your background. Sure, and thank
you, Michael, for having me. I love your work,
and I'm so pleased to be able to share whatever
insights I might have from a way that I have
from my world, which I call orchestrated connecting.
So I'll give you a brief background. So I am
an anomaly in the business world because I am
a working classical composer. The last time somebody
held a job and actually had success in music
was Aaron Copland. Everyone else teaches. But
I realized as I was running a large scale nonprofit
that my entire world was about finding the resonance
with people and the skill sets that come from
the performing arts that come from understanding
how to read people, how to have. conversations,
how you were present. All of that self -work
helped me understand how I eventually became
a nonprofit CEO in my mid -20s and then transitioned
from that into running a film company for a large
-scale family office. But at every point, there
was one thing that brought me forward in my career,
and that was my purposeful community. Some people
would describe it as a network, but for me, the
network is around you. to do a round of what
you're doing. The community is there to lift
you up. And I can look at every single point
in my life and in my career where I met the right
donor, got the right client, got into the right
room, all based on the power of the introduction.
That's incredible. I think you can do that pinpointing
as you eloquently put it. because you're actually
looking for it. Most people network today, they
don't even know they're networking. They're finding
those connections, those networking between two
people, and they don't understand that it's truly
networking that's getting them even further.
But I'll leave that for now. Let me just go into
a few of the questions that I have for you, and
I hope they are in line with what you wanted
to talk about. You talk about risk. as a key
ingredient in building community. Can you unpack
that? And what kind of risk are we really talking
about when we're trying to connect? So I love
starting with this question because what we don't
think about when we don't even think, as you
just said, whether we're networking or not, we
don't think about the one thing we cannot buy,
which is our reputation. People have tried. And
then they have basically been dethroned, so to
speak. But everyone who has a positive reputation
has it based on positive action. So in communities
and networks, whoever you look at your personal
network, your business network, your alumni network,
any variation from your PTA, there's a thousand
worlds in which your community can be purposeful,
Michael. In everyone, we rarely, if ever. talk
about the consequences of taking bad actions
or taking no action. But if you were to view
everything as relationships with the summation
of how you've spent your time and what you've
spent your money towards and into, that if somebody
is wasting your time, shouldn't their reputation
not be as strong as somebody who is elevating
or adding to it? And so in the network that I
run, in the way that I live my life, If you introduce
me to people who are not positive people that
I can help or they can help people that I know,
at some point, sometimes me, then you are wasting
my time. And if I am clear on the type of people
I want to meet, such as yourself, and the way
that I want to support those people in my network,
why should it not be that standard is a double
standard that you should be rewarded and have
your reputation increase for having a positive
benefit? And if the opposite is true, shouldn't
there be a risk associated with that? Of course
there should be. And I go into networking with
what's called a servant's heart. I always look
to give rather than receive. And as many people
would say, and Zig Ziglar, one of them, when
you do that, you're going in with a better. alternative
of living. You go with giving instead of receiving
so that if you constantly give, if I put two
people together, then one or both of those people
should say, Michael did this for me. So let me
try to introduce him to somebody else. And you
do that enough and it will go around. What goes
around does come around. So it's very important
what you say. Thank you. a moment in your own
journey where taking a networking risk, starting
a conversation, asking for help, showing up,
changed everything? I have a few of these, but
I want to demonstrate with this answer what happened
because I built enough of a community to actually
support me through a very dark and hard time.
So there was this time, we all remember it, it
was called COVID. It technically still exists,
we just pretend it doesn't. And I was living
with my now ex -in -laws out of New York City.
My kids were young, and through no fault of my
own, I had actually just gotten an incredible
new opportunity with my current employer. Circumstances
changed, and I had to figure everything else
out about my life in the span of six months.
So I went to my community. And I said, I'm not
sure what I can do. I can't go back and run an
arts organization. There's no performing arts.
It's COVID. I can't move back to New York. My
younger kid has always had breathing issues.
I don't know what will happen if he gets this
disease. And would anyone that knows, trusts,
or loves me show up and for 20 minutes tell me
what you think I can do? 142 people booked the
call. And I might think what I've built now in
my world of startup and book and global event
series and purposeful community of 2000, I was
good at it. I wasn't then. I stumbled into it.
I needed to hone it. And I was not so dense that
after maybe like the hundredth time that somebody
told me what they thought I did well, that they
thought I was already doing, I got it that I've
been doing. what I was eventually supposed to
do, but I had been completely afraid of it until
people took their time to tell me why they valued
me. And that gave me enough fuel for the last
five years now to build a much more impactful
business and community from it. So that fuel
that you're speaking of is maybe confidence.
confidence in yourself so that you now see what
everybody else generally sees or saw in you.
And you are now, you've built that confidence
to such a point where you're comfortable doing
what you're doing today. And that's creating
your community and actually not only creating
it because you've created it, but you're watching
it expand, and you're enjoying it. And that all
started from the confidence level. That's all.
Absolutely. Why do you believe vulnerability
is such a core strength in today's networking
culture? And how can leaders model it authentically?
So you know how anyone who's a parent will tell
you when they say to their kids, do what I say
you're supposed to do? Everyone laughs as you're
laughing now because no kid ever listens when
you say you're supposed to do something. How
are you supposed to model empathy in leadership?
Curiosity. How are you supposed to get past the
water cooler conversation without embracing vulnerability
as a key part of our lives? This is the question
I ask myself repeatedly. And even though I might
have needed the confidence to build my business.
bigger than it was at the time, I didn't need
any confidence to be vulnerable and to see what
came of it because I saw its strategic effect
and the personal growth I experienced from it.
When you meet somebody at whatever level they
are and you're willing to share something, not
verbal diarrhea or every single problem you have,
but you're willing to share something that you
think instinctually is relevant and they open
up. You build relationship trust. And once you
have trust, you have the exact opposite of that
parent trying to tell the kid, do what I say.
Because when I parent my kids and they trust
me on certain things, they just do it. But they
know that I've explained to them why we do it.
I will explain more after. And that it needs
to be done so we can collectively achieve something.
That for me, whether it's in a parent situation
or a management or... business growth situation
is the key. And it's embracing that vulnerability
that gets us closer to the people that we want
to stay relational with, even when transaction
occurs. That is so true. You touched on so many
points that is so crucial, besides to living,
besides networking, it's to everyday life. But
what you... really said was that trust me, that
trust factor is so crucial that you can't do
anything else unless you have that trust factor.
And it's so true, especially with networking.
That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm
all about. But it's so crucial, I think, in every
business, every walk of life. Okay. Curiosity
is often overlooked in networking. You just spoke
about the curiosity. How does it deepen connection
and create stronger communities? Think about
the last time you went to an event, maybe before
you spoke, because I have a feeling from the
incredible keynotes that you give that once you
speak, people don't make this mistake. But think
about somebody who's sitting there with you,
maybe two hours before you go on. And they start
talking about themselves. And they talk and they
talk. And you, being a naturally curious super
connector, ask them questions. And then they
say goodbye, having handed you their card. And
two hours later, they see you on the stage. And
they go, that's the guy I talked to. And you
think later, no, that's the guy you talked at.
That is the fallacy in networking people don't
get. My estimate, right, not a social science
graph yet, is that only 30 % of people are actually
curious enough to build depth in a conversation.
But the ones who do, right, like, why would I
want to go into even speaking on a podcast with
you, which I'm very grateful for, without having
read what you do and looked you in the eye and
talked to you and seen that we are kindred spirits
of how this world works. for that right you come
with 10 questions which means you have curiosity
not just the necessity of being a host but you
have insight with that which means that our rapport
is going to be different and what people listen
to from it is going to be different than something
that would otherwise be drier but now which is
a lot of conversations when we go through the
motions without actually that that emphasis on
the deep listening and curiosity as essential
To again, the same thing, building the trust.
You combine the two, vulnerability and curiosity,
and you have something worth remembering or being,
you're worth remembering from exhibiting those
traits. That's so true. And really, when I say
when you're first meeting somebody, you let them
talk about themselves. But it's not to such a
point where they talk, talk, then you say goodbye.
Because They don't even know your name or what
you do because all they did was talk, talk. And
that's why I will interject, interjecting with
you right now, several parts of my own vulnerability
to see if they bite. It's true. And if they bite,
then you have a conversation. If not, it's a
one -way mirror and you were on the wrong side
of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. And really, every
time that... that you do this if they bite. It's
one little thing in the back of your mind saying,
okay, they bit on that so I can talk about this
or I can take the conversation in this direction.
But that's all communication going back and forth.
Without it, what you said at the beginning was
that's who you spoke at, not to. And it's so
true. Okay, to add one more thing. Absolutely.
Go right ahead. So I want to point this out in
terms of, yes, we're walking through the basic
principles which are in my book and the way I
talk about connecting. I know a lot of it's akin
to the way you talk about this and speak as well.
The thing people fail to realize is, I believe
we have maybe five to six times in our life to
be in the right place at the right time to meet
the right person. So if you're not ready for
that moment. You have lost more than you could
ever fathom because that guy who just talks at
you and then hears the keynote speaker, he didn't
just get to know you. You wrote him off by the
time your conversation was done because you saw
his intentions and what was behind the curtain.
You don't need to talk to him anymore, no matter
who he is, because he's a taker. Absolutely.
And as well as I do, that you really, you have
to be a giver. Not 100%, not 100%, but like I
said before, you need to give in order to receive.
But if you are, again, going back to that person
that's just speaking at people, I really, it's
very hard for me to say this, being the networker
that I am, I don't have time for them. I don't
have time for people like that. And I just move
on. But it's moving on from that person that
makes it more difficult for me because they never
shut up. But that's beside the point. Okay. How
can someone move past the fear of being too much
or not enough when trying to show up vulnerability
in their professional relationships? It's why
it's a combination. If you're just vulnerable
with somebody and not knowing if it resonates,
you're still talking at them. You're just sharing
more than you probably should have. If you're
so curious that you just pepper them with questions,
you're not actually hearing them. You're just
peppering them with questions. It's an intricate
balance. This is an art. It's a skill. So to
do that right. is to have what is that real give
and give in a conversation where you simply don't
just shift gears because you need to make your
point or you harp so much on what they're doing,
you miss the chance to share about yourself.
It is that deep listening that makes it more
nuanced and different, but you have to put enough
out there many times to get somebody to open
up because in a conference setting in particular,
just to keep this going. How many people do you
talk to within a given day? How many people are
memorable? Tell me it's more than three for anyone.
So how are you going to be one of those three?
But then the follow -up is warranted. You actually
get the contact information and know it will
be reciprocated. Or you've even set an intention
from it. All this is an art and it's a science
that involves that self -work. You have to study
how you show up to people to understand that
your style and mine are going to be totally different.
Your outcome is different than mine. You are
a sought after speaker looking for those keynote
opportunities to do your workshops and to speak.
That's not how my network works or how my business
works. So I have something different from the
same conversation, even if we have the same approach
to start it off. Absolutely. And it all goes
back to active listening. Right. You have to
listen to the person that you're speaking with.
And I call it active listening because you're
not just hearing them. You're listening to what
they have to say. And after they finish talking,
you're pausing. And that pause becomes so important.
It's because it tells the other person you are
listening to them and you have to respond to
them with what they were talking about, not the
next thing that you wanted to say. And that's
so hard for somebody. If you're a salesman, I've
been a salesman for 30 years. And you're always
trying to sell something. But to be a networking
person, you listen to what the person has to
say. You respond to the person. you take notes
and everything else. And I have to say, when
you follow up with these people, now you're saying
that you generally have three people that you
remember. In a three or four hour event, I say
take 15, 20 business cards. I used to, listen,
I was in a mortgage industry. I used to come
home with a shoebox filled with business cards
and say, look how good I did when I really didn't
do well at all. But on the back of your business
card, on their business card, you write down
the date, the name of the function, and something
you spoke about. So when you do follow up with
them, it jogs your memory. But that's a whole
other conversation. It's an important thing to
note, though. I know you have more questions,
but I want to harp on this because the art of
doing this. is so crucial. What I have adapted
now and how I work in my world of connecting,
networking, my own events, tons of conferences,
I will actually look at the person and say, Michael,
I really enjoyed talking about this. I'd love
to follow up with another call about this. And
then whether it's LinkedIn or WhatsApp or email
or text or any variation, I will literally send
them a note live to say, Michael, I'm looking
forward to talking about AI and the service industry.
And then they remember it too. And from the staff,
even a 15 or 20, sometimes I end up with 10 great
meetings from a conference. Depends on the number
of people, the type of conference, how many days.
But I don't end up with three of those people
to me. I'm a minority in the type of people I
follow up with because they need to resonate
enough to be worth the time as I'm trying to
do for them. And it is really difficult to remember
everyone you've met unless you resonated in that
moment and set the intention to connect further.
That's so true. That's so true. When you're doing
your follow -up, the follow -up, I feel, is more
important actually than meeting the person. Because
the way you follow up, just how you follow up,
the way you follow up is so very important. And
I have a whole secret sauce with following up.
From that first email, text, WhatsApp, whatever
the case may be, from that first touch forward,
that will determine the type of relationship
you're going to have with that person. So it's
very important. What does a truly connected community
look like to you? And how can you build it intentionally
in both business and life? I'll qualify to say,
although business and life are separated, I don't
believe they are separate because we are each
one person. The idea that people wear hats and
you're approaching them on one hat versus another
means you're being pigeonholed into the thing
they want to hear you on. When you connect with
somebody at a deeper level in, as your question
alludes to, a community, you can connect on a
myriad of different reasons. Some are actionable,
some are informational, some are personal, but
they're all to the same person. And so the difference
in what makes a community function as opposed
to even just the network is, it may be as we
develop our relationship, I will never ever provide
you a lead gen, a speaking opportunity, or a
client. But if somebody I know who trusts me
that then meets you does so, without an expectation
in return from you or me, then you have a community.
Because a community can have these different
swirling circles where you can trust that if
everyone's intentions are purposeful, then at
some point it will come back to you. But my argument
is, related to risk earlier as your first question,
you have to have a community where there's an
expectation of reciprocity, even if it is in
a chain of connections. as opposed to me to you
and you to me. And the community that I run,
which I call orchestrated connecting, because
I'm both a composer whose music no one listens
to, even when I say I'm a composer and they like
what I say, but also somebody who runs a network
in several businesses. I trust that if I were
to ask anyone on my network to take the time,
they would take the time. Because they trust
that when I would ask people to take time for
them, it would also happen. And both of those
examples, the risk is inherent. If you refuse
to take time for something that I think would
be beneficial, then somebody may refuse to take
time for you, or I may refuse to ask because
you valued your time above helping somebody else.
That's very true. And it all depends on how you
look at yourself, your time, but you go back
to that same basic level of trust. The people
within your community, they trust you wholeheartedly.
So if you recommend somebody to them, of course,
they're going to take that leap and touch base
with that person. Otherwise, they wouldn't be
part of your community. You know, so of course,
only when you set the intention for how the community
needs to function, because there are people that
are really good people who might be moderate
givers. But in some cases, they'll happily help
if they've been helped, but they weigh whether
they've been helped recently enough to spend
their time. Whereas in my network, somebody can
have been helped by me two years ago, but because
it was so substantive, they're willing anytime
I ask, but they know I only ask when it's completely
relevant and useful. Good point. That's quite
well taken. Okay. You've said before that connection
without curiosity is just performance. Can you
speak to that idea and how it shows up in today's
networking spaces? Let me back that one out to
the world of dating. Now, I haven't been on a
date in a very long time, but this resonates
with everyone who has. Same thing as that person
who spoke at you at the conference, right? Think
about... The one date you went on where you met
years ago for both of us, the most gorgeous,
incredible person they had everything. You're
describing my wife. There you go. But see, you
built a long, bigger connection, right? But think
about the person five years before, unless you
were high school sweethearts and don't because
13 years old has been way too strange. But think
about that person that just the initial spark
seemed like it would light a fire. And you told
them everything about yourself, everything that's
great about you, everything that would make you
incredible, and then they never called back.
That's the price of having no curiosity. Everyone
I know has had a situation or multiples like
that, or wonder why, if they're such a great
friend, why they can't find that right partner.
And in business and networking and all of this
is inherently the same. We are looking for a
validation for who we are and what we do and
the people who give us that we will spend more
time with. And that is a given gift that is for
which curiosity is essential as one of the two
primary ingredients. It does. That sounds like
it is essential, but very good. Thank you. What
are some small. Practical ways people can take
more social or emotional risks in networking
without feeling overwhelmed. When you look at
the world of what you don't know, it's completely
overwhelming. Where should you go? Should you
keep your job? Should you go back to school?
Should you join this network? Should you go to
this other network? We're always looking for
how we are out facing to get something. The most
practical small step is do a little bit of intention
setting so that when you ask for what you need,
people are able to know where you need to go.
And so that's a simple way of saying the more
you figure your stuff out, the easier it is for
people to help you. And the hardest part is knowing
how to ask for it. If you can't ask for it, that
is the hardest part. Yeah. And think about it,
right? If somebody knows what you need, then
they can be your advocate or champion. If they
don't know, then the fact they can't define it
is a negative against you. Somebody comes, you're
like, I have to find a new job. You're like,
okay, I'd like to help you. They're like, I need
a new job. And you're like, what type of job?
And they're like, I could do anything. And I
was like, yeah, no one's looking for anything.
But if you come and you say, I was the CFO of
a company. I really love doing that work. When
the startup was acquired, I realized I'd like
to help several startups. You know anyone that's
a fractional CFO I could talk to? Or several
companies looking for somebody with exit experience
in fintech? Then even the person who's not a
connector like you or I will go, yeah, you should
talk to Joe. You have to be specific, which means
you have to know how to trigger that specificity
in others. Once you understand the impact ask,
as I call it, the power of that ask, then all
the research you do of where to belong, who to
talk to, where you might need to build what you
need to for your business and your life, it no
longer is vast and overwhelming. It's lots of
specific little parts that you can now plug yourself
into much better. Absolutely. That's great, great
advice. Focusing on, let's say, what you can
do, what you can't do, but narrowing the field,
make it laser focused so that somebody else can
help you. That is great, great advice. Okay.
In your experience, excuse me, in your experience,
what happens when we build networks in rooted
authenticity rather than agenda? And how does
that shift? How does that shift the outcome?
I'm really grateful, Michael, for the community
that I've built, because when I make an ask,
the answer every time is anything for you. Imagine
the power of having hundreds, or in my cases
at this point, thousands of people willing to
bend over backwards for something not relevant
for them. That is rooted not just in trust, but
in action. I've earned that. I've put the time
in. And so when I come in to quote cash in my
chips, the people have been waiting. In some
cases, they felt really guilty. And in many cases,
it's not even me that helped them. It's somebody
I know who helped them that they met through
the network. But you don't have to be a master
connector or networker running a big community
like I do. You simply have to look at everyone
around you. as an opportunity to help them and
to know at some point you may be helped in return
or they may help somebody else you love and respect.
That's why it's purposeful, the way we can design
this. And we may believe we're powerless in this,
but I know that we have a choice who we surround
ourselves with, who we spend our time with, who
we partner with, who we work with. In some cases,
it's out of our control. But as we go through
this life, we are less and less out of control,
right? You start with your family, into your
schooling, into your initial work. But as your
life progresses, the thing we have to realize
that needs to be flipped on its head is it's
a choice who we surround ourselves with. And
therefore, the more intentionality of that, the
better the outcome from it. That's great. That's
great. David, you... are speaking like a successful
person. You have been through the lows, the highs,
and you've come out of this smelling pretty good.
But think back for a minute. Think back of the
mistakes you've made. And I'm sure there's one
or two. But give me a mistake that you've made
and how you overcame it. I believe you only learn
from mistakes. Everything that I have now, and
it might smell of success. I don't know if it's
necessarily that. The joke right now, as we do
this podcast is, you might have a book coming
out August 5th around Purposal Community and
Connection. It might be a bestseller, or I might
put author on my LinkedIn page. And I have a
startup that's launching, and I might be a successful
exited founder, or I might just put founder on
my LinkedIn page. The way we perceive success
is always relative because even nature is to
want more. Where I made my biggest mistakes were
in wanting more without understanding not only
my value, but really in understanding other people's
value around me. So the origin story of orchestrated
connecting is the best example of this. And no,
I won't give you the 20 minute spiel because
we're on a time limit here. But essentially,
I built a network of trust where I didn't connect
the people I trusted to each other. That was
one of the biggest mistakes of my life because
everyone around me needed something I couldn't
do when I was in the way. And I realized that
the best way to build my intentional network
was to get out of the way by getting those people
to meet each other. I had to develop a rule system,
a mantra, all these different parts to make it
work. But in the end, Michael, what really worked?
was learning that I was not nearly as good as
I thought I was with seeing the patterns and
balancing my time and helping people. And I was
absolutely horrendous at demonstrating my value
while doing it. Okay. Okay. Let's bring this
podcast full circle. If someone is listening
today, feeling disconnected, guarded, or unsure
of how to start, What's the first step toward
building community with purpose and heart? You
know, what I have to say now, according to my
publicist, is read my book, Orchestrating Connection,
How to Build Purposeful Community in a Tribal
World. But because not everyone reads a book
in my family, what I'm basically going to do
is have a bunch of coasters, because that's what
we call my classical albums that everyone used
to buy, coasters. I put everything up on my website.
I put it up in video form. I've really tried
to convey to everyone that to start, the most
important thing is to know you have to, as per
all of your great questions today, you have to
get outside your comfort zone. And by getting
outside your comfort zone, you have to know that
you're going to get both great response and great
criticism for not just talking with the people
who validate you, who know you. And some are
going to like you. Some are going to love you.
Some are not going to care in the slightest.
And the minute you start to see the patterns
of how somebody responds to you or not, you gain
more control, more confidence, so to speak. And
you start to see which people to avoid, which
is as important as which people to embrace. Very
good. David, I have to tell you, you're a fantastic
guest. I loved having you on. But if somebody
wanted to get hold of you, what's the best way?
If you Google me. and you look at my websites,
business or community, I put my information out
there. My email, if you actually Google hard
enough, you can find my cell phone. But I believe
in a world of intentional connection. So if somebody
were to listen to this and want to connect, the
first thing I'd ask for them to do is to write
you as a listener and to thank you for your podcast
and for your work. The second thing I would then
suggest is if something struck them, Don't just
write me and be like, hey, let's connect. Really
means you didn't listen to the last 30 minutes
of our conversation. Is there something that
I'm offering or something that I'm doing that
we think there could be reciprocal value? Because
in the world of running a community and a network
and a business and being an active dad with kids
who are 8 and 11, it's the thing I've lost in
my life is time. Therefore, if you're going to
add to value and time, and I can do the same.
Let's build a relationship. Otherwise, if there's
things that one could learn from what I'm saying,
buy the book. That's great. That's great. David,
again, thank you for coming on the podcast. And
I hope to talk to you again soon. Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me, Michael. And
thank you for all the work that you do. Well,
hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere. Let me just
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-U -P -K -I -D -S dot org. Well, that's our folks.
A huge thank you to our special guests for sharing
such incredible insights today. And of course,
a big shout out to you, our amazing listeners,
for tuning in and spending your time with us.
Remember, networking isn't about being perfect.
It's about being present. So take what you've
learned today, get out there, and make some meaningful
connections. If you enjoyed this episode, don't
forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and share
it with someone who could use a little networking
inspiration. Let's keep the conversation going.
You can find me on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
my website, Michael Foreman. Remember, until
next time, keep practicing, keep connecting,
and keep building those relationships. This is
Michael A. Foreman signing off. Take care and
happy networking.