WEBVTT 00:00:16.809 --> 00:00:20.089 Hello, welcome back to Networking Unleashed, 00:00:20.190 --> 00:00:23.890 the podcast where connections aren't just conversations, 00:00:24.309 --> 00:00:27.670 they're the currency of success. I'm your host, 00:00:27.809 --> 00:00:30.230 Michael Foreman, and today we're talking about 00:00:30.230 --> 00:00:33.390 one of the most exciting intersections in business 00:00:33.390 --> 00:00:36.689 where product success meets the power of people. 00:00:36.909 --> 00:00:41.549 My guest today is a seasoned product expert who 00:00:41.549 --> 00:00:45.490 uncovered the five keys to product success. But 00:00:45.490 --> 00:00:48.420 here's the twist. It's not just about features 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:51.140 and functionality. It's about the relationships 00:00:51.140 --> 00:00:55.159 that bring a product to life. From co -creation 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:59.039 to customer discovery, from team dynamics to 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:03.100 strategic partnerships, we're unpacking the how 00:01:03.100 --> 00:01:06.420 networking fuels every stage of building something 00:01:06.420 --> 00:01:09.359 truly successful. Whether you're launching a 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:14.079 new product, scaling an idea, or trying to find 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:17.900 product market fit, This episode will give you 00:01:17.900 --> 00:01:20.560 a fresh perspective on how your next big win 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.959 might come from your next big connection. So 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:26.900 buckle up, get ready to take notes, and let's 00:01:26.900 --> 00:01:30.500 unleash the network behind the product. And my 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:35.280 guest today is David Fraden. And before I butcher 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.040 his background completely, I'm going to let him 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:40.719 do that for you. So David, how are you? Welcome 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:44.530 to the show. I'm doing great. My background is 00:01:44.530 --> 00:01:47.829 I've been involved in product success for 55 00:01:47.829 --> 00:01:52.150 years. I currently consult and teach product 00:01:52.150 --> 00:01:54.590 management and product marketing. My number one 00:01:54.590 --> 00:01:58.489 client is Cisco, and I and my trainers have probably 00:01:58.489 --> 00:02:01.170 trained about half of the product managers at 00:02:01.170 --> 00:02:06.519 Cisco worldwide. Okay, that's very good. And 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:08.800 what is it? And I read something in your background 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:11.680 about Apple Computer and a business manager. 00:02:12.580 --> 00:02:15.580 Yeah, I was the business unit manager for the 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:18.800 Apple III product line. And at the time, there 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:20.960 was just two profitable product lines for the 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:24.080 company, the Apple III and the Apple II. And 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.879 Steve Jobs Macintosh was still under development. 00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:33.120 And I was actually working for a computer company. 00:02:34.110 --> 00:02:37.629 when all of that first came around. Back when 00:02:37.629 --> 00:02:40.810 the Macintosh was, ever hear of a Macintosh Lisa? 00:02:41.689 --> 00:02:44.689 Yeah. Okay. So that's when I started working 00:02:44.689 --> 00:02:48.330 with the computers. So that long ago. Okay. So 00:02:48.330 --> 00:02:51.810 let's delve right into this. How does networking 00:02:51.810 --> 00:02:55.750 impact product success, especially in those early 00:02:55.750 --> 00:03:00.080 ideation and validation stages? Well, networking, 00:03:00.419 --> 00:03:03.659 I'm here in Silicon Valley, and one of the reasons 00:03:03.659 --> 00:03:07.560 for Silicon Valley's success is the ease of networking. 00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:11.479 In the culture of Silicon Valley, if I introduced 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:15.159 you to somebody else and you turned out to be 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.759 a bum, it does not reflect on me. It's just that 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:22.300 everyone expects everyone to network. In other 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:25.659 cultures, like the Japanese culture, If we were 00:03:25.659 --> 00:03:28.560 in Japan and I introduced you to somebody else 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.900 and you or somebody else turned out to be an 00:03:31.900 --> 00:03:35.419 idiot, then it would reflect poorly on me. They, 00:03:35.580 --> 00:03:38.139 for many years, have had a culture of if a nail 00:03:38.139 --> 00:03:41.020 sticks up, you got to pound it down. Whereas 00:03:41.020 --> 00:03:44.020 in Silicon Valley, if a nail sticks up, you try 00:03:44.020 --> 00:03:48.800 to help it grow and thrive. I see that the networking 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:53.139 around in the U .S., anyway, if I were to refer 00:03:53.139 --> 00:03:58.189 you to somebody, and you turned out to be an 00:03:58.189 --> 00:04:02.150 idiot, that would reflect poorly on me because 00:04:02.150 --> 00:04:05.750 the end person would say, the last person that 00:04:05.750 --> 00:04:09.389 Mike referred to me, he really didn't turn out 00:04:09.389 --> 00:04:11.990 to be the best, so I'll just take him over with 00:04:11.990 --> 00:04:14.590 a grain of salt. So I guess it really depends 00:04:14.590 --> 00:04:17.029 on what part of the country you're from or what 00:04:17.029 --> 00:04:20.279 country you're from. Well, that's what many places 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:24.319 like Silicon Valley, I think in New York and 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.680 in San Francisco and others have studied the 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.879 culture in Silicon Valley, which is about 45 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:34.519 miles south of San Francisco. And they've tried 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.300 to adopt the same level of entrepreneurship and 00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:41.160 ease of networking. And some of them have succeeded. 00:04:41.300 --> 00:04:43.660 Some of them have not succeeded because of the 00:04:43.660 --> 00:04:46.459 cultural differences around the country and for 00:04:46.459 --> 00:04:50.870 that matter, around the world. Okay. You talk 00:04:50.870 --> 00:04:54.569 about five keys to product success. Can you walk 00:04:54.569 --> 00:04:57.769 us through them and show and share how relationships 00:04:57.769 --> 00:05:01.350 played a role in each one? Yeah, the five keys 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:04.490 are a mnemonic of my company's name, Spice Cow. 00:05:04.629 --> 00:05:08.370 This is the word spice, where S stands for product 00:05:08.370 --> 00:05:12.069 market strategy. P stands for repeatable processes. 00:05:12.550 --> 00:05:15.470 I stands for having the information available 00:05:15.470 --> 00:05:19.420 necessary to make important decisions. C stands 00:05:19.420 --> 00:05:21.759 for understanding what it is that your customer 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:24.680 wants to do, when they want to do it, why they 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:26.439 want to do it, how they want to do it, where 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:29.079 they want to do it, how important is it for them 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:31.920 to get it done, what's standing in their way, 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:34.899 and how satisfied are they with the current solution. 00:05:35.470 --> 00:05:40.110 And then the E stands for the employees and staff 00:05:40.110 --> 00:05:42.949 and consultants for the company to ensure that 00:05:42.949 --> 00:05:46.269 they have all 130 competencies or skill sets 00:05:46.269 --> 00:05:49.430 that I've identified that are essential to product 00:05:49.430 --> 00:05:53.379 success. Going back through each of them in terms 00:05:53.379 --> 00:05:55.720 of putting together your product market strategy, 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:59.079 no one product manager can do it by themselves. 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:03.000 They have to get involvement of senior executives, 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:08.839 finance, legal, HR, engineering, sales, marketing, 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.720 purchasing, manufacturing. They have to be able 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.300 to easily network, mediate, and negotiate to 00:06:16.300 --> 00:06:18.740 get everyone on the same page and on the same 00:06:18.740 --> 00:06:22.670 product strategy. In the P area, that's a repeatable 00:06:22.670 --> 00:06:26.129 process. And it was either Harvard or MIT found 00:06:26.129 --> 00:06:29.089 that those organizations that had repeatable 00:06:29.089 --> 00:06:32.629 processes that they enhanced and improved over 00:06:32.629 --> 00:06:36.449 time tended to be more and more successful. I 00:06:36.449 --> 00:06:39.569 had one client I was consulting with, and I asked 00:06:39.569 --> 00:06:42.329 him if his company had repeatable processes. 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:46.050 And this VP of product management said no. They 00:06:46.050 --> 00:06:48.509 introduced five new products. All five failed. 00:06:48.629 --> 00:06:50.709 And then when they went into their retrospect, 00:06:51.129 --> 00:06:53.209 everyone sat around pointing fingers at everybody 00:06:53.209 --> 00:06:56.250 else because they didn't have a repeatable process 00:06:56.250 --> 00:06:59.680 that everyone agreed to. The eye for information, 00:06:59.860 --> 00:07:01.959 you have to network to get that information. 00:07:02.300 --> 00:07:04.439 You may have to go to your corporate marketing 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:06.800 department and make sure that they subscribe 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:10.019 to the market research studies and reports that 00:07:10.019 --> 00:07:12.240 are necessary for the market that you're in. 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:17.759 The C is composed of three or four steps of networking. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.180 First, to observe what your customer is doing, 00:07:20.339 --> 00:07:22.779 then interviewing your prospective customers 00:07:22.779 --> 00:07:25.399 that fit the personas that you're targeting and 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.040 the target market, then surveying a representative 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:30.839 sample. Then if you have big data available, 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:34.120 you can do analytics on that and employ artificial 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.860 intelligence to mine that information. And then 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:41.779 lastly, in terms of the 130 skill sets that your 00:07:41.779 --> 00:07:44.459 employees have to have, some of them or a lot 00:07:44.459 --> 00:07:46.420 of them are going to just get picked up on the 00:07:46.420 --> 00:07:49.899 job. So to be able to network with people, find 00:07:49.899 --> 00:07:52.839 mentors that will help mentor and coach you through 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.980 developing the skill sets and the competencies 00:07:55.980 --> 00:07:59.759 necessary for your success and for product success. 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:04.379 Okay. Okay. When building your product team. 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:08.519 How did your network influence who you brought 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:13.439 on board? It's usually their references, their 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.980 introductions, and then I would go on and interview 00:08:16.980 --> 00:08:19.180 them from there, check out their references, 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:23.139 and before I'd offer them an opportunity. The 00:08:23.139 --> 00:08:26.339 second thing I would do is also assure myself 00:08:26.339 --> 00:08:30.889 that the values that individual holds. maps into 00:08:30.889 --> 00:08:33.870 the values that I have and that the organization 00:08:33.870 --> 00:08:36.929 that I'm working for has. Because if there's 00:08:36.929 --> 00:08:39.710 a conflict of values, usually the chances for 00:08:39.710 --> 00:08:43.429 success are substantially and severely diminished. 00:08:44.590 --> 00:08:47.750 Right. So when you have an employee that's been 00:08:47.750 --> 00:08:50.509 with the company for a while and they bring you 00:08:50.509 --> 00:08:53.929 in, how do you deal with that when they really, 00:08:53.990 --> 00:08:59.110 they don't match what you are looking for? Well, 00:08:59.149 --> 00:09:01.750 one of the things I, every time I became a product 00:09:01.750 --> 00:09:05.169 manager, I would go out to lunch with each of 00:09:05.169 --> 00:09:07.509 the other people in the other areas that I mentioned 00:09:07.509 --> 00:09:11.370 earlier, manufacturing, engineering, HR, legal, 00:09:11.470 --> 00:09:14.690 and so forth. And as part of that lunch, I would 00:09:14.690 --> 00:09:17.250 ask them, what is their personal goals in life? 00:09:17.330 --> 00:09:19.690 Where do they want to go? And I told them, if 00:09:19.690 --> 00:09:22.309 I can help you get there, I'll be willing to 00:09:22.309 --> 00:09:24.980 do that. The result of that is whenever I would 00:09:24.980 --> 00:09:27.259 go into a meeting and a decision needs to be 00:09:27.259 --> 00:09:30.460 made, I know where that person is coming from 00:09:30.460 --> 00:09:33.360 and where they want to go. And I can pitch the 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.100 decision along the lines that I know will help 00:09:37.100 --> 00:09:40.279 them out in their personal aspirations. And therefore, 00:09:40.539 --> 00:09:43.360 everyone can come together and be more successful. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:47.480 It means a lot more to the employee when the 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:51.370 management is looking out for them. Yeah. Okay. 00:09:51.529 --> 00:09:54.710 So how do you balance listening to your network's 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:57.750 feedback and staying true to your product vision? 00:09:59.850 --> 00:10:03.509 By having the data to know what it is that your 00:10:03.509 --> 00:10:07.590 product needs to do for the customer. I had one 00:10:07.590 --> 00:10:10.049 instance where I was teaching the Botswanian 00:10:10.049 --> 00:10:14.210 telecommunications company in Botswana. And I 00:10:14.210 --> 00:10:16.629 wanted to go to Botswana because I was wondering 00:10:16.629 --> 00:10:19.309 how can you get a country northeast of South 00:10:19.309 --> 00:10:22.929 Africa? And a product manager from one of the 00:10:22.929 --> 00:10:25.110 South African banks asked if he could come to 00:10:25.110 --> 00:10:28.000 Botswana and sit in on the class. And he did. 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.019 And about halfway through the product management 00:10:31.019 --> 00:10:34.779 class, he said that a person that was just hired 00:10:34.779 --> 00:10:37.759 as a general manager in another area of the bank 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:40.639 convinced the president to cancel his product 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.960 line. And he had 12 engineers and two or three 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.480 product managers and they were all just scared 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:48.850 to death that they were going to get fired. And 00:10:48.850 --> 00:10:52.009 I asked them, did this, if you had what's called 00:10:52.009 --> 00:10:55.970 a DAISY or RACI chart, which is DAISY stands 00:10:55.970 --> 00:10:58.490 for decision maker, who needs to be advised, 00:10:58.909 --> 00:11:01.750 C stands for who needs to be consulted, and I 00:11:01.750 --> 00:11:05.049 stands for who needs to be informed, which I 00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:07.429 advocate everyone to do, put together such a 00:11:07.429 --> 00:11:09.909 chart before they start their product exploration 00:11:09.909 --> 00:11:13.139 and their strategy and development. Because when 00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:15.419 it comes time to make a decision, not everybody 00:11:15.419 --> 00:11:18.480 is the decision maker. Some people need to be 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.240 consulted with. Some people just need to be informed 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:24.379 what the decision is. And he responded that they 00:11:24.379 --> 00:11:27.279 did not have that for this product. And I said, 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:29.879 if you did have that, would this new general 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:34.139 manager have been on the Dacey chart at all? 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.120 And his response says that general manager would 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.179 not be. So the thing to go back to when you go 00:11:41.179 --> 00:11:44.500 back to Johannesburg is ask for a meeting with 00:11:44.500 --> 00:11:48.559 the president. Show him your data as to why this 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:50.899 product is important to the bank's customers 00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:54.860 and that he should resurrect the product. And 00:11:54.860 --> 00:11:58.019 if necessary, tell the president he should ask 00:11:58.019 --> 00:12:01.279 this new general manager as to what their data 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:04.600 is that recommends the cancellation of the product 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.659 rather than that individual's personal feelings. 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:12.470 Always bring the data. If you have the data to 00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:14.710 back you up, there's nothing that they can really 00:12:14.710 --> 00:12:18.590 say except for ultimately no. If you have the 00:12:18.590 --> 00:12:22.009 data to back you up, you prove to be a great 00:12:22.009 --> 00:12:26.070 argument for that. Can you give an example of 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:30.049 how a customer or a beta user, beta user connection, 00:12:30.450 --> 00:12:34.740 led a breakthrough in your product? Yeah, I was 00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:37.480 working for a company called DocuGraphics, who's 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.399 no longer around. And they were trying to build 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:43.080 a new computer workstation built upon Motorola 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.820 components. Also write a word processing program 00:12:46.820 --> 00:12:50.480 and a computer -aided drafting and design program. 00:12:51.289 --> 00:12:53.470 So they're trying to do something like WordPerfect 00:12:53.470 --> 00:12:57.649 and AutoCAD plus a workstation sitting on top 00:12:57.649 --> 00:13:00.269 of a relational database, which I think they 00:13:00.269 --> 00:13:02.950 were writing from scratch, versus using someone 00:13:02.950 --> 00:13:06.610 else's database. And so that was, they're trying 00:13:06.610 --> 00:13:09.250 to accomplish with a few million dollars what 00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:12.710 in four major areas, four multimillion dollar 00:13:12.710 --> 00:13:15.549 companies were doing, like Apple, Microsoft, 00:13:16.070 --> 00:13:20.710 IBM, Sun, WordPerfect, Autodesk, and so forth. 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:25.299 without the resources. So they were trying to 00:13:25.299 --> 00:13:28.299 go after that broad market of desktop publishing. 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:32.480 So I went out and I interviewed the half a dozen 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:35.960 or so customers that we had and found that's 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.360 not how they were using the product. That in 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:41.820 fact, what they were doing is using it to create 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:45.259 and manage work instructions, manufacturing instructions 00:13:45.259 --> 00:13:49.570 that are sent down to the floor. to show the 00:13:49.570 --> 00:13:52.190 assembly people how to build the product and 00:13:52.190 --> 00:13:54.830 also manage all the engineering change orders 00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:58.090 so that the right components are used in the 00:13:58.090 --> 00:14:01.350 right product. One of my lead customers was Lytton 00:14:01.350 --> 00:14:04.470 Applied Technologies, and they made fighter jet 00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:07.629 fuzzbusters. So they had this little device in 00:14:07.629 --> 00:14:10.870 their jet, and when the enemy popped off a missile 00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:14.009 at them, this fuzzbuster would detect the missile 00:14:14.009 --> 00:14:17.590 and put out a signal to jam the incoming missile. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.220 Now, if something's screwed up between understanding 00:14:21.220 --> 00:14:24.320 that the enemy has changed their frequencies 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.720 and this fuzzbuster was not picking that up, 00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:30.779 then the result was the pilot gets killed and, 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.149 of course, the plane is destroyed. So it was 00:14:33.149 --> 00:14:36.429 absolutely essential and important that the right 00:14:36.429 --> 00:14:40.269 version of the components for each build of the 00:14:40.269 --> 00:14:43.509 product was done correctly each time. So I was 00:14:43.509 --> 00:14:47.009 able to move the positioning of the product away 00:14:47.009 --> 00:14:50.879 from the general word. publishing business to 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.139 focus specifically on manufacturing instructions 00:14:54.139 --> 00:14:57.299 with the additional benefit that nobody else 00:14:57.299 --> 00:15:00.419 was in that marketplace at the time. So we could 00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:02.700 niche that puppy, as they say in the business, 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:06.759 and maximize focusing all of our resources on 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.519 that little market niche and become profitable. 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:14.039 Yeah, usually when in business, when your focus 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:17.259 isn't exactly focused, when you have such a broad 00:15:17.259 --> 00:15:22.419 spectrum and then you focus in on one task, one 00:15:22.419 --> 00:15:26.259 thing, you become light years better than what 00:15:26.259 --> 00:15:29.019 you were before because you're focusing on that 00:15:29.019 --> 00:15:31.039 one thing. You're not everything to everybody, 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.820 which really you can't be. So you're focusing 00:15:34.820 --> 00:15:38.600 on your lane. And that really is very good. What's 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.980 the role of strategic partnerships and how do 00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:45.940 you build those relationships from scratch? A 00:15:45.940 --> 00:15:48.179 strategic partnership is very critical because 00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:50.840 you always have to go through a build versus 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:55.100 buy scenario. And if you could find a partner 00:15:55.100 --> 00:15:59.379 that can provide some holes in your product and 00:15:59.379 --> 00:16:02.139 or in your service, it's far better to partner 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:04.759 with them than it is to try to go out and build 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:08.090 a duplicate of it. And the way you do it is you 00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:10.110 approach them and say, hey, we're interested 00:16:10.110 --> 00:16:13.330 in a strategic relationship. This is what we're 00:16:13.330 --> 00:16:16.070 doing. I understand what you're doing. Can we 00:16:16.070 --> 00:16:18.149 sit down and talk about some way that we can 00:16:18.149 --> 00:16:21.490 work together? I had, when I was the business 00:16:21.490 --> 00:16:25.490 unit manager for the Apple III, about 500 hardware 00:16:25.490 --> 00:16:28.750 and software developers that had built products, 00:16:28.830 --> 00:16:32.029 hardware and software for the Apple III. And 00:16:32.029 --> 00:16:34.850 I sat down with them. all of them, to put together 00:16:34.850 --> 00:16:38.809 a strategic partnership to make sure that the 00:16:38.809 --> 00:16:41.490 money they were investing in my product line, 00:16:41.629 --> 00:16:43.470 that they'll get a return on that investment. 00:16:43.750 --> 00:16:46.529 And that included when we were getting close 00:16:46.529 --> 00:16:49.330 to shutting down the product line, no longer 00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:53.389 using it as a cash cow for the company, I focused 00:16:53.389 --> 00:16:56.629 on moving all of my developers from the Apple 00:16:56.629 --> 00:17:00.269 III platform to the Macintosh platform so that 00:17:00.269 --> 00:17:04.480 they can continue to be a going entity. And when 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.759 you're talking about the Macintosh, it brings 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.839 me way back. I told you before that I started 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:12.660 when the Mac Lisa was still around, when the 00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:16.839 SE30, SE80 was just that one little nine inch 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:20.779 black and white screen. So I really, it brings 00:17:20.779 --> 00:17:25.359 me way back to my roots. A lot of founders struggle 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.579 with getting their first users. How can networking 00:17:28.579 --> 00:17:33.130 accelerate user adoption? Well, I'll give you 00:17:33.130 --> 00:17:35.890 an example. I joined a company that I was recruited 00:17:35.890 --> 00:17:39.529 to join called Rich Relevance back in 2007 or 00:17:39.529 --> 00:17:43.589 so. And they had a bunch of people come out of 00:17:43.589 --> 00:17:46.970 Amazon's recommendation engine research and development 00:17:46.970 --> 00:17:50.549 area. And they had built a personalized recommendation 00:17:50.549 --> 00:17:54.849 system like Amazon's. And they got some venture 00:17:54.849 --> 00:17:58.130 capital investments. And one of the venture capitalists 00:17:58.130 --> 00:18:03.210 knew the... VP of IT at Sears, the holding company. 00:18:03.509 --> 00:18:08.430 So he introduced us to Sears. I flew out to Chicago, 00:18:08.750 --> 00:18:12.089 went to the Sears campus, which is off of one 00:18:12.089 --> 00:18:15.029 of the suburbs there, met with that VP and with 00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:17.769 the general managers and with the head of Sears 00:18:17.769 --> 00:18:21.450 .com and worked out an agreement for them to 00:18:21.450 --> 00:18:24.930 buy this recommendation engine and install it 00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:28.640 on their website. It was like a $15 million deal. 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:34.039 And then in typical Sears style, they insisted, 00:18:34.099 --> 00:18:37.240 since I was going to be a vendor of Sears, that 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:41.079 I also have to give them some stock in rich relevance. 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:45.579 And that's what Sears did for many decades with 00:18:45.579 --> 00:18:48.920 many of the suppliers to Sears and turned owned 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.539 pieces of the companies that were supplying them. 00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:55.069 We worked all that out as a strategic partnership, 00:18:55.329 --> 00:18:59.109 and I emphasized the importance of making sure 00:18:59.109 --> 00:19:02.470 it worked, even to one point after the president 00:19:02.470 --> 00:19:06.069 of the company promised Sears that if his recommendation 00:19:06.069 --> 00:19:08.529 engine, which is running on other servers, crashed, 00:19:08.890 --> 00:19:12.630 it would not crash the Sears website. One morning, 00:19:12.670 --> 00:19:14.769 about 5 o 'clock in the morning, I get a call 00:19:14.769 --> 00:19:17.769 that says the Sears site is down. We think it's 00:19:17.769 --> 00:19:21.480 rich relevance. Fix it. So I organized a task 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:24.380 force to jump in there and fix it before more 00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:26.980 than several million dollars in sales were lost. 00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:29.680 And they were happy with that to the point in 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.740 which I could ask them for references and referrals 00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:39.019 to Kmart .com, SearsParts .com, and the rest 00:19:39.019 --> 00:19:42.759 of the other 93 .com websites that Sears Holding 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:47.319 owned at that time. Wow. Wow, that was really 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:50.599 good. What networking advice would you give to 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:54.740 product creators who are great at building, but 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:58.980 not great at connecting? They got to get out 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:03.259 of their shell or find somebody for marketing 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:06.519 or business development or sales that are good 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:09.240 at that and let them go and don't be paranoid 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:13.960 about it. That's one thing that in my. talk. 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:16.880 So I go coast to coast and I'm a public speaker. 00:20:17.180 --> 00:20:19.980 I always talk about introverts and extroverts. 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:24.200 The people building are usually introverts and 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.200 they always have to get with an extrovert. And 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.420 that's the sales and marketing and everything 00:20:29.420 --> 00:20:32.299 else, part of the business, but the introverts 00:20:32.299 --> 00:20:34.460 are the builders. So that's how I get to them. 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:37.940 You also run across a personality that thinks 00:20:37.940 --> 00:20:42.160 they are number one. and they cannot allow somebody 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.140 else to take the lead. This guy that was one 00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:48.240 of the founders of Rich Relevance was one of 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.279 those. And I remember we went to a conference 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:55.339 in Orlando, Florida, and the primary value proposition 00:20:55.339 --> 00:20:58.140 for Rich Relevance is it helps increase your 00:20:58.140 --> 00:21:01.599 sales, or what in the e -commerce business is 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.349 called Lyft. So I said, let's get a bunch of 00:21:05.349 --> 00:21:08.829 balloons and put Rich Relevance on it and tie 00:21:08.829 --> 00:21:11.250 them up to shopping carts, which is related to 00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:13.589 the shopping cart on the e -commerce site. And 00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:15.730 this was an e -commerce conference that was going 00:21:15.730 --> 00:21:18.529 on with other companies there like Sears looking 00:21:18.529 --> 00:21:21.109 for products like Rich Relevance, personalized 00:21:21.109 --> 00:21:24.289 recommendations. So he got his nose a little 00:21:24.289 --> 00:21:26.750 out of joint because I had come up with a... 00:21:26.970 --> 00:21:30.490 better idea for marketing the company. And I 00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:34.170 started talking on the floor with a lady from 00:21:34.170 --> 00:21:37.269 Steva, which is an alternative sugar sweetener. 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:40.609 And he had to budge his way into that conversation 00:21:40.609 --> 00:21:44.549 and brag about how much he likes Steva, which 00:21:44.549 --> 00:21:46.690 had nothing to do with the strategic partnership 00:21:46.690 --> 00:21:49.329 I was trying to put together. And as a result, 00:21:49.349 --> 00:21:52.259 I wasn't able to develop anything there. Yeah. 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.640 So you have to tell these guys better off that 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:57.460 you keep your nose out of my business. Let me 00:21:57.460 --> 00:22:00.319 do the thing that I do best and let the company 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.420 go. But you're right. But some people just don't 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:06.720 want to let go. And that's what happens. That's 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.160 what could happen. OK, so what's one relationship 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.960 that had a major impact on your product's trajectory 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:20.920 and how did you build it? I guess one thing that 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.450 comes immediately to mind is that When I took 00:22:24.450 --> 00:22:26.630 over the Apple III product line as the business 00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:30.430 unit manager, that was as a result of Steve Jobs 00:22:30.430 --> 00:22:33.069 convincing the executive committee at the time, 00:22:33.089 --> 00:22:36.930 this is 1983, to cancel the product line because 00:22:36.930 --> 00:22:39.529 Steve felt that the Apple III was in the business 00:22:39.529 --> 00:22:42.069 and office market where he wanted his not -yet 00:22:42.069 --> 00:22:45.210 -shipping Macintosh to be. He had not yet learned 00:22:45.210 --> 00:22:48.109 from Dave Packard and Hewlett Packard that it's 00:22:48.109 --> 00:22:50.349 better for him to cannibalize his own products 00:22:50.349 --> 00:22:53.660 rather than have someone else do it. After it 00:22:53.660 --> 00:22:55.960 was canceled, I was called into the president's 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:59.119 office and he said, Dave, we canceled the Apple 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:01.259 III product line. I said, I know you did and 00:23:01.259 --> 00:23:03.619 you didn't bother to ask me about it. I have 00:23:03.619 --> 00:23:07.079 the full responsibility, but no authority. And 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:10.200 he said, so Scully says, what should we do about 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.859 it? And I said, what do you mean we, pale face? 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.059 get the joke. So I had to explain to him that 00:23:17.059 --> 00:23:19.200 there was this fictional character, the Lone 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.079 Ranger, that more white, rode a white horse. 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:26.460 I got it right away. Rode a white horse, had 00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:30.119 one silver bullet in his belt, and he rode around 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.599 doing good and fighting evil. And he had an Indian 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:36.900 sidekick by the name of Tonto. And when I tell 00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:39.500 this story to Indian Indians, I have to say an 00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:42.180 American Indian sidekick. And the story goes 00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:45.450 is that the Lone Ranger and Tato are surrounded 00:23:45.450 --> 00:23:48.230 in the desert by 10 ,000 yelling, screaming Indians. 00:23:48.630 --> 00:23:51.049 And the Lone Ranger turned to Tato and says, 00:23:51.329 --> 00:23:53.869 Tato, we're surrounded by 10 ,000 yelling, screaming 00:23:53.869 --> 00:23:56.369 Indians. And all they want to do is scalp us. 00:23:56.390 --> 00:23:59.829 What should we do? And Tato, who was an American 00:23:59.829 --> 00:24:02.150 Indian, says, what do you mean we, pale face? 00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:07.329 Yeah, that's right. Scully snickered and I explained 00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:09.809 to him that I have all the responsibility, but 00:24:09.809 --> 00:24:13.549 none of the authority. Give me. full authority 00:24:13.549 --> 00:24:16.970 as an independent business unit, which he and 00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:20.490 the executive committee later did. And as I was 00:24:20.490 --> 00:24:26.049 running that, we had sold 23 ,000 of the 25 ,000 00:24:26.049 --> 00:24:29.170 Apple 3s that we had in inventory, representing 00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:31.690 about a third of all the Apple 3s that were sold 00:24:31.690 --> 00:24:35.549 up to that point in time. And then the company 00:24:35.549 --> 00:24:37.390 announced that they're going to have an Apple 00:24:37.390 --> 00:24:40.259 II Forever event. And the same day, they're going 00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:43.599 to announce the Apple IIc. And they're going 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:47.160 to have 24 demonstration stations at the Moscone 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:50.099 Center up in San Francisco showing different 00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:53.140 Apple II products. But they would only give one 00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:58.019 to me for the Apple III. director of communications 00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:00.700 who had been around apple for many years at that 00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:02.900 time came to me he says look we're just opening 00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:05.640 up another can of worms to explain to the dealers 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:08.119 that the company's still behind the product but 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:11.039 only one out of 24 demo stations is the apple 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:13.619 iii and i don't think we can do that anymore 00:25:13.619 --> 00:25:15.500 i don't think the dealers are going to believe 00:25:15.500 --> 00:25:18.539 us or trust us so i think we should shut the 00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:22.559 product line down so i did that day in april 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:27.430 1984 But in the process of doing that, I also 00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:30.869 had as a customer a company out of Utah called 00:25:30.869 --> 00:25:33.849 Sun Remarketing. Remarketing, no relationship 00:25:33.849 --> 00:25:37.789 to Sun Microcomputers. And he would buy end of 00:25:37.789 --> 00:25:40.630 inventory products from like Osborne and Compaq 00:25:40.630 --> 00:25:44.420 and so forth and then resell them. So I flew 00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:48.000 out to Utah and sat down with him and we cut 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.700 a deal for him to buy the remaining 2 ,000 Apple 00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:53.819 3s so that when I shut the product line down, 00:25:53.980 --> 00:25:56.640 all of them had been sold, all the profits had 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.559 been gained. It was enough money to help pay 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:02.420 for the finishing of the Mac development and 00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:05.880 also to keep about 1 ,000 to 1 ,500 Apple employees 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:10.220 employed until the following January. In 1985, 00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:14.880 Steve had cut the Salesforce, eliminated it. 00:26:15.019 --> 00:26:18.299 He discontinued the Lisa product line that he 00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:20.119 had been made general manager of in addition 00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:23.279 to the Mac. And Mac sales dropped to four units 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.900 because there was nothing you could do with the 00:26:25.900 --> 00:26:29.079 existing Macintosh at the time because the largest 00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:32.200 program you could write was 10K and it had to 00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:35.019 be an Apple Basic, which was not a very verbose 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:37.599 programming language. And a couple, three months 00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:40.839 later, the board fired him and then moved on. 00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:46.900 That's all right. I know I keep saying this over 00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:49.099 and over again, but you're talking all about 00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:51.319 your background in Apple and everything else. 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:56.019 And that was my beginning in the computer era. 00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.559 And it's like old home week. That's really because 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:02.799 everything you're discussing, I was part of that 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.109 dealership. But I was also a systems engineer 00:27:06.109 --> 00:27:09.569 with Apple Computer. So everything is all coming 00:27:09.569 --> 00:27:13.650 together. If someone is just launching a product 00:27:13.650 --> 00:27:17.369 today, what three networking moves should they 00:27:17.369 --> 00:27:22.609 make in their first 90 days? Once they've started 00:27:22.609 --> 00:27:24.630 putting together their product market strategy, 00:27:25.130 --> 00:27:28.450 one component of that is their distribution strategy. 00:27:29.930 --> 00:27:31.789 So that's what they figured out. Are they going 00:27:31.789 --> 00:27:34.190 to use a distributor? Are they going to go direct? 00:27:34.369 --> 00:27:36.890 Are they going to build a direct customer website? 00:27:37.849 --> 00:27:39.970 Are they going to use a sales force? Are they 00:27:39.970 --> 00:27:42.529 going to use a value -added reseller? Are they 00:27:42.529 --> 00:27:45.029 going to use an original equipment manufacturer? 00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:47.869 So you have to figure those things out as to 00:27:47.869 --> 00:27:49.829 what is the best way to bring your product to 00:27:49.829 --> 00:27:52.470 market. Do you want to do it in the United States 00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:55.529 first, then Europe second, and then Asia third? 00:27:56.009 --> 00:27:58.089 And then you start cultivating relationships 00:27:58.089 --> 00:28:00.630 in each of those areas that your distribution 00:28:00.630 --> 00:28:05.609 strategy tells you that you're going to do. That's 00:28:05.609 --> 00:28:09.450 great. David, you apparently are very successful 00:28:09.450 --> 00:28:12.089 and you're very knowledgeable in what you do. 00:28:12.769 --> 00:28:16.430 What's your biggest mistake that you made and 00:28:16.430 --> 00:28:26.509 how did you overcome it? I think the biggest 00:28:26.509 --> 00:28:29.890 mistake that I've made in my entire career is 00:28:29.890 --> 00:28:32.509 going to work for companies or organizations. 00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:37.599 that either did not have a set of values or did 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.700 not follow those set of values. And third, did 00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:45.319 not map into my values. And one of the things 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:47.799 I did when I was writing Building Insanely Great 00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:51.539 Products, which is available on Amazon, is that 00:28:51.539 --> 00:28:54.779 I was familiar because of my work in the high 00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:57.940 -tech business and in dealing with the supersonic 00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:00.880 transport and the space shuttle. When I was in 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:05.319 college, I was personally known to or knew of 00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:08.759 the presidents of most of the Fortune 500 companies 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:12.160 in the first Fortune 500 list. And I had read 00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:16.000 many of their annual reports. So I made a list 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.900 of those Fortune 500 companies and I had three 00:29:18.900 --> 00:29:21.420 columns. The first column was, did they have 00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:24.500 values? And if so, did they follow those values? 00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:28.099 And the third column is, are they still in business? 00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:32.039 And I found with almost without exception, those 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:34.480 companies that either did not have values or 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.299 did not follow values, they were no longer in 00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:40.339 business. So that began to tell me how important 00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:43.450 the values are. And I wondered if that applied 00:29:43.450 --> 00:29:46.089 to my personal career. So I made a list of about 00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:49.549 25 organizations that I've been associated with 00:29:49.549 --> 00:29:52.430 throughout my career. These are for -profit companies 00:29:52.430 --> 00:29:56.130 like Hewlett Packard and Apple and others, nonprofits 00:29:56.130 --> 00:29:59.190 like the nonprofits that I started and the flying 00:29:59.190 --> 00:30:02.250 club that I started at Michigan, and the homeowners 00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:04.910 associations of which I've been president of. 00:30:05.450 --> 00:30:09.930 Without exception, those that had either no values, 00:30:10.069 --> 00:30:13.089 did not follow their values, and or did not map 00:30:13.089 --> 00:30:16.369 into my values, I either got fired, and that 00:30:16.369 --> 00:30:18.690 was a mercy killing, and I felt better the next 00:30:18.690 --> 00:30:21.890 day, or I quit, and I felt better the next day. 00:30:22.089 --> 00:30:25.630 But in those in which all three columns mapped 00:30:25.630 --> 00:30:28.509 up, they had values, they followed values, like 00:30:28.509 --> 00:30:31.769 Hewlett Packard and Apple, I thrived, and I was 00:30:31.769 --> 00:30:34.049 very happy, and very happy to get up in the morning 00:30:34.049 --> 00:30:37.829 and go to work there. So the number one mistake 00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:41.019 that I made And those organizations that didn't 00:30:41.019 --> 00:30:44.319 have that is I didn't examine that before I agreed 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:48.539 to join them. I had a property manager for my 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:51.099 rental property that I owned on the beach in 00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:54.039 Maui. And he came back to the Bay Area and was 00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:56.019 looking for a job. And I told him that story. 00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.049 And I said, After they start interviewing you 00:31:00.049 --> 00:31:02.450 and they finish their questions, you ask them, 00:31:02.509 --> 00:31:05.710 what are their values? And then you decide whether 00:31:05.710 --> 00:31:07.190 or not you're going to join that organization. 00:31:07.769 --> 00:31:10.769 He said a few days later, he went out on an interview 00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:13.849 and he started talking about values. And he talked 00:31:13.849 --> 00:31:16.130 with the hiring manager for four hours about 00:31:16.130 --> 00:31:18.910 values. They hired him and he said he's never 00:31:18.910 --> 00:31:22.450 been happier in a job in his entire life. Sometimes 00:31:22.450 --> 00:31:24.690 that's all you need is just a push in the right 00:31:24.690 --> 00:31:28.430 direction to make sure that your values align 00:31:28.430 --> 00:31:32.450 with the company's. And it's very good advice. 00:31:32.869 --> 00:31:36.490 David, this was a blast. I love talking to you, 00:31:36.529 --> 00:31:40.269 especially about Apple Computer. But if somebody 00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:42.690 wants to get hold of you for whatever reason, 00:31:42.829 --> 00:31:45.509 how would they get hold of you? They can go to 00:31:45.509 --> 00:31:48.369 my website, to Spice Catalyst, oneword .com. 00:31:48.630 --> 00:31:51.750 All my contact information is there. All my books 00:31:51.750 --> 00:31:54.230 are there. All my training courses are there. 00:31:54.470 --> 00:31:57.630 And then there's an extensive blog with hundreds 00:31:57.630 --> 00:32:00.630 of articles about all aspects of product success. 00:32:01.150 --> 00:32:03.470 They can also go to Amazon, any place in the 00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:07.319 world. Look up my name, David Frayden, and all 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.920 my books will come up, including workbooks for 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:12.779 many of my courses that people can use to put 00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:15.579 together their five keys to product success. 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:20.160 Fantastic. David, this was so great. I thank 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:23.480 you so much for coming on the podcast. Glad to 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:27.480 be with you. Well, hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere. 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.299 Let me just read a few of our sponsors that we 00:32:30.299 --> 00:32:33.710 have. Struggling to reach success? 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This is something I believe in wholeheartedly. 00:33:18.660 --> 00:33:22.079 Revved Up Kids is on a mission to protect children 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:25.940 and teens from sexual abuse. exploitation, and 00:33:25.940 --> 00:33:28.299 trafficking. They provide prevention training 00:33:28.299 --> 00:33:31.759 programs for children, teens, and adults. To 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:35.720 learn more, go to revvedupkids .org. That's R 00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:43.720 -E -V -V -E -D -U -P -K -I -D -S dot org. Well, 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:47.210 that's a wrap, folks. A huge thank you to our 00:33:47.210 --> 00:33:50.089 special guests for sharing such incredible insights 00:33:50.089 --> 00:33:53.450 today. And of course, a big shout out to you, 00:33:53.549 --> 00:33:57.170 our amazing listeners for tuning in and spending 00:33:57.170 --> 00:34:00.769 your time with us. Remember, networking isn't 00:34:00.769 --> 00:34:03.430 about being perfect. It's about being present. 00:34:03.690 --> 00:34:06.450 So take what you've learned today, get out there 00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:09.730 and make some meaningful connections. If you 00:34:09.730 --> 00:34:12.230 enjoyed this episode. don't forget to subscribe, 00:34:12.530 --> 00:34:15.289 leave us a review, and share it with someone 00:34:15.289 --> 00:34:17.469 who could use a little networking inspiration. 00:34:18.369 --> 00:34:21.789 Let's keep the conversation going. You can find 00:34:21.789 --> 00:34:26.150 me on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or my website, 00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:29.610 michaelforman .com. Remember, until next time, 00:34:29.650 --> 00:34:33.110 keep practicing, keep connecting, and keep building 00:34:33.110 --> 00:34:35.650 those relationships. This is Michael signing 00:34:35.650 --> 00:34:38.349 off. Take care and happy networking.