Hello, and welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building
Profitable Connections. Welcome back to the show,
folks. I'm your host, Michael Foreman, and you're
listening to the podcast where networking is
more than just awkward handshakes and bad coffee.
It's an art and a talent. But here's the twist.
It's an art and talent you can actually learn.
Yes, even if you're the person hiding in the
corner at every event, pretending to check emails.
Networking isn't just a nice skill to have. It's
a game changer. And when you get good at it,
you'll wonder why you didn't start sooner. More
connections, more opportunities, more profits.
It's like unlocking a cheat code for life. So
whether you're the life of the party or the just
let me stay at home and text type, we've got
something for you. So stick around. Let's turn
those awkward small talk moments into big wins.
I have a guest today. Her name is... Shermaine
Cruz. You crushed it. All right. And she is an
award -winning idea curator, global changemaker,
complex system negotiator, international business
lawyer, speaker, and storyteller. And I think
you tested my verbal skills right then and there.
Shermaine, why don't you tell us a little bit
about yourself? All right, listen, I test my
verbal skills every time I say the word Volkswagen,
because in my language, there's no wah sound.
So I just want to say Volkswagen. And it's very
difficult to say Volkswagen. So I'm very happy
that I put you through the exercise of what I
go through on a daily basis. Okay, okay. All
right, my background. Well, I was born in Iran.
I lived through the first 10 years or so of post
-revolutionary Iran during the Iran -Iraq War.
And then my family was finally able to immigrate.
We were able to immigrate to Canada. And so I
attended university. there and it was my introduction
to western democratic thought and what it was
like to interact and interface with communities
in the west as a woman especially as a woman
of color and it was always my dream to be in
the corporate world and to be doing the handshaking
and the awkward small talk and what I started
to learn as I went to law school. I went to law
school in Ann Arbor in Michigan. And that was
my introduction to the United States. By the
way, shortly before 9 -11, it was a crazy time
for me to be out there networking in law school,
trying to find clerkships and then land positions.
By the way, I'm dating myself now. This was almost
a quarter of a century ago, y 'all. So I've been
around the block since then quite a bit. And
I stepped into this world of boardrooms. And
what I learned is that the amount of freedom
and flexibility and opportunity here is so much
improved, infinitely improved. And I learned
from iran where i come from but and i also learned
that listen there's still a hierarchy here and
this is a cutthroat corporate world and if i
really want to make it in this world i need to
build relationships and alliances and i didn't
really come with any michael I just, my parents
did what they could and they did a great job
providing for us. We never went hungry, but I
didn't come from a world of corporate prestige.
I came from a war -torn post -revolutionary country
and I desperately wanted to maneuver my way through
these rooms. But then I also wanted to do it
in a way that was authentic to me, that felt
right for me, that settled well with me, and
that felt more like really. building than manipulation.
And so that was the skill that I began to develop
after law school, having honed it to be candid
with you in Iran as a child, learning to maneuver
my way through the morality police and things
like that. And practiced it ever since, right?
And so as I succeeded in the corporate world,
I was an international lawyer. So I represented
a lot of Fortune 500 companies. And I was in
courtrooms. I was in boardrooms. I was in negotiation
rooms. I was in some... really unusual places
at very unusual times. And it's been an extraordinary
ride. And then about a few years ago, I retired
and I decided to teach at all. So now I teach
at Northwestern Law School. I teach. the JD program
and the MSL program there. I write books and
I speak. And this is the world that I'm in now
is helping other people form those connections,
no matter how skilled or unskilled they might
be at it. And no matter how many connections
they enter in with, right? Okay, sure. Now, you
mentioned stoicism within the things that you
want to talk about. Just very briefly go into
that just a little bit. Yeah, so stoicism was
essentially something I grew up with, right?
This idea of emotional regulation, of stoic regulation
of one's emotions. As I grew up, I learned more
and more. I studied philosophy in university,
and then I went on to law school, and I became
very practiced. as a litigator and a person existing
in the corporate world, of being in control of
my own feelings and emotions at any given time,
while still being empathetic toward the people
in the room, that is being able to read them
and understand them, as well as was necessary
for that situation and that particular circumstance.
What I learned is that stoicism isn't not feeling
things, right? Actually, that is a sort of a
psychopathic way of existing. Stoicism is rather
existing with the ability to regulate your own
emotions, to feel the right things at the right
time for the right people in the right way as
you determine them to be. And in my opinion,
it's the ultimate form of authenticity. And it's
the ultimate form of relationship building. What
I found in a networking context is that I could
utilize both stoicism and empathy to read the
room, respond to the room, but also deal with
my own, say, anxiety or frustration or rejection
or whatever might have happened in that networking
room tonight because not every conversation is
an incredible win, as we all know. Some of them
leave us feeling as though we failed that one
or the person we interacted didn't set us up
for a good next one. And so it's being able to
cope with all of that while still having that
awareness of the other people in the room. Networking
isn't an exact science. meet somebody who you
can build that relationship with, but you also
deal with the people that you really can't and
you don't dismiss them. You have their contact
information, but you're moving on to somebody
else that you can build that relationship. And
as well as I do, that relationship building is
really the key to networking. How has combining
stoicism and empathy shaped your approach to
networking? Really, the idea is when you think
about empathy and empathic connections, there's
actually a range of empathic connection. On the
one end of the range is cognitive, which is emotional
detachment. I am not walking a mile in your shoes.
I'm just syncing my steps with your steps so
that I can smell what you smell and see what
you hear, what you hear, so I can understand
you better. And that is the ultimate way for
me to be able to relate to you, right? Find common
ground with you and build that relationship,
but even candidly find you interesting. But on
the other end of that spectrum, Michael, is emotional
empathy. And that is your pain in my heart. It's
the usual definition that we associate with empathy,
right? You're watching your favorite TV show,
your favorite character gets punched in the face
and you recoil, even though you didn't get hit,
right? And that's a fictional character on a
box in front of you. So imagine translating that
into real life. So the thing about networking
is we have to be really careful and strategic
about what Thank you so much for having me. And
the amount of emotional connection you want to
feel to that person is going to be very different
than how you want to approach the cold room.
But either way, you want to go into every situation
with that understanding and awareness. So that's
the empathy part. The stoicism part, that's turning
all of that awareness inward, all of that strategy
inward. I also need to be aware of my own feelings,
my own thoughts, right? And in control of them
and able to dictate them and influence them so
that I can maneuver my way through this situation
in a way that will serve me, that will serve
my profession, my company, my industry, whatever
it is my goals are for that encounter and interaction
and do it in a way that's authentic to me. So
I'm not going to go home that night and feel
as though I was untrue to myself somehow, but
rather, hey, I met some really great people and
made some really great connections that I can
continue to develop as I move forward. So that's
what I'd love for you guys to be able to do at
the end of the night. Authenticity is the main
part of what you're talking about. And that's
the main part of networking. Because if you are
authentic to yourself, you can be free and discuss
and you can actually listen to the other people
if you're being authentic. If you're not, if
you're putting on some sort of a show, how much
of a relationship can you actually build? So
it's a very good point. How do you balance strength
and compassion when networking in high pressure
situations? And you being an attorney, I'm sure
are used to a few high pressure situations. Yes,
absolutely. So again, you need to be strategic
about the level of compassion that you input.
One of the examples I like to give about this,
and I know your show's about networking and I'm
talking to a corporate community right now, but
I want all of you guys for a second to imagine
that you're a trauma surgeon in an emergency
room. gunshot victim after gunshot victim comes
in through the door. You crying over every single
one is not going to help those gunshot victims.
But your compassionate ability to understand
the pain that they're going through and the situation
that they're in is going to be able to serve
you. And it will prevent you from being traumatized
by your experiences so that you can keep doing
your job. So that's how I want you guys to think
about compassion and empathy as you go into different
situations. You want to make sure that the level
of emotional connection that you're taking with
you is something that is going to be able to
serve you in that situation, right? If it's not,
try to put it aside. And one of the things that
CEOs love doing these days, networkers and the
startup founders and all of these folks love
doing these days is getting up first thing in
the morning, taking an ice bath. And one of the
reasons they love those ice baths, there's lots
of health benefits to ice baths. I'm not minimizing
the health benefits. But what I'm telling you
is getting Comfortable with discomfort, as a
general matter, is a remarkable stoic tool. It
could be through an ice bath. It could be through
a steam room. It could be through volunteering
at your local homeless shelter and striking up
conversations with people you have nothing to
gain from, right? Whatever it is, getting used
to that which makes you uncomfortable so that
when you're in that state of discomfort, high
pressure situation, maybe even hostile high pressure
situation, right? How do you maintain your calm,
maintain your composure, and perhaps most importantly,
maintain your awareness of yourself? and the
people around you. And that awareness can take,
again, it can take the form of a full emotional
connection to someone you've known for decades
whose child is ill, and you show up to the hospital
and hold their hand. Or it can simply take the
form of, I am going to distance myself from these
feelings at this time, so that I can serve my
partner whose child is sick, so I can take over
their duties for them, so that they can focus
on their family, right? So compassion, can take
multiple forms. And as long as you strategically
take it into your tense situation, you'll be
able to adapt it to the situation in a way that's
appropriate. Okay, very good. Very good answer.
Thank you for that. Let me give you a kind of
working over overcoming challenges. Okay, how
can stoic principles help in overcoming networking
challenges and rejections? I love that. As I'm
sure you can imagine, you're in a networking
room. Rejection, by the way, comes in all forms.
It comes in that very subtle, casual, you make
your way towards someone, but they turn around
and their back is to you and you suddenly know
you're not welcome in that conversation. It can
also take much more extreme forms than that,
right? So rejection can also come in the form
of outright rejection. And that can be impactful.
It can be hurtful. And we've all been in that
situation where there's also this nervous awkwardness,
right? So it's not as though you're reduced to
tears in the middle of a networking event. It's
more you feel a little bit let down and you feel
this anxious awkwardness and you're not sure
now how to maneuver your way through the room
or if you have somehow embarrassed yourself in
front of others, et cetera. So what you want
to do is you want to use stoic tools and the
one I've already described so far is embracing
discomfort but there's a lot more of them in
my book stoic empathy which is being released
April 8th tons of stoic tools to help you cope
and maintain emotional regulation at that time
whether it's anger because somebody said something
with which you vehemently disagree, maybe even
on a deep moral level, which can happen even
at a networking event, right? How do you cope?
How do you respond and cope to that person? And
the first step is always pause, right? Maintain
control of yourself and then react and make sure
that here's the stimuli, okay? Here's the response.
What's in between the stimuli and response is
your willpower. Make sure that you're existing
in that space. And then not only are you able
to control your reactions in a manner that is
appropriate at times where anger, anxiety, fear
is being triggered, but you are also, again,
as Michael said earlier, remaining true to your
authentic self. Because you're able to be yourself.
Here's you in the middle. Here's your response,
your intentional response, right? And that is
the best that you can do in that situation. Because
you don't have a month to think about it. And
by the way, don't leave the room overthinking
your interactions. Don't leave the room thinking,
oh, I should have said this or I should have
done that. It's okay to reflect a little bit
on what you could have done differently to further
your interactions and create meaningful context
and content. But you don't want to overthink
it. You don't want to go back and beat yourself
up because you feel like you didn't. collect
enough business cards or build enough relationships
that night, because that's not going to motivate
you going into the next one. It's just not going
to be helpful to you. Take what lessons you can
get and move on. And I just want to sprinkle
in just a little bit to what you had said, your
confidence level, okay? Because if you are confident
in yourself and what you're doing, that really
helps you because you're your authentic self,
you're confident, it'll give you that little
bit of structure. to respond. That pause that
you were saying, that is so important because
you have to really take everything in, think
about it. Now you really don't have a few seconds,
but you have to think about it and respond appropriately.
So that if you sprinkle that confidence in there,
I think that's a perfect answer. 100%. And if
I could just dovetail back on that, I know you
have other questions, Michael, but One of the
things I always I don't know if your audience,
if anybody out there is an athlete or if you've
ever played sports or if you are a fan of athleticism.
But there's this thing that happens in sports
where the ball slows down, the game slows down.
There's this kind of cool thing that happens
that the pros talk about. Now, you've got to
be a pro before it slows down for you. But it
literally slows down like your Neo from the Matrix
and the bullets are whizzing by, according to
everyone else. But for you, they're going so
slowly that you could grab one of them and drop
it. Right. That is something I swear to you guys,
if you practice this enough, you can accomplish
with your networking skills. You can actually
slow down that time for yourself so that it might
not actually be 10 seconds of time. It might
just be a beat. But that... beat can feel like
a lifetime if you are an expert at knowing how
to deal with that beat. So allow yourself to
get to the place where you'd let the game slow
down for you so that you can see it in a way
that isn't as rushed, that isn't as fast moving.
And then you suddenly find that space within
yourself to respond and find that confidence.
Just to let you know that also. Both my sons
played college baseball. My daughter -in -law
played college softball. So I'm telling you that
all three have said that they've found that to
happen, that it actually slowed down. So it happens
on the collegiate level as well. So I know exactly
what you're talking about. Definitely. How does
empathy contribute to becoming a more effective
leader and networker? Okay, so in terms of leadership,
really the way I think about empathy and also
empathy's interaction with stoicism, and this
is something I write about in the book as well.
The book is Stoic Empathy, if you guys are still
listening. April 8th, it's coming out. Feel free
to get a copy. One of the things that really
takes place when you're a leader is you develop
this incredible ability to understand your team,
this empathic awareness of your team. Now, I
want you to imagine yourself as a leader. responsible
for a team, right? And when you're responsible
for a team, you're not just responsible for the
day they have, you're responsible for the jobs
they keep, right? So, and that means the health
insurance they have, right? Little Timmy's. medicine
could be reliant on you. There's a massive amount
at play here. And the higher up you are on the
leadership spectrum, but even if you are leading
a small team, you're responsible for these people.
And sometimes you get bad news because Bumps
in the road happen in business, right? It doesn't
matter who you are. It doesn't matter how successful
you are. And it doesn't have to be a worldwide
global pandemic or anything like that or total
disruption of supply chains as a result of that.
It could just be you lost a big client that day.
In everyday occurrence, that might happen. And
you have to find a way to manage this loss, this
financial loss, in a way that preserves and protects
but still motivates your team. You don't necessarily
want to lie to them and pretend that you still
have the client. That would be silly. But you
also don't want to go to them with shaky hands
and say, guys, I don't know what we're going
to do. We've lost this client. We have nowhere
to go. No, you want to use your awareness of
the empathic needs of the people around you to
collect and gather yourself and lead them in
a manner that is appropriate. So when we talk
about empathy, what we're talking in leadership,
what we're talking about is we're talking about
that awareness. You care about your team. You
care about their jobs. You care about their health
care. Yet you don't need to necessarily express
that in a manner that would make them upset,
uncomfortable, or in any way not motivate them
to do what you need them to do to save their
jobs, to save the company. and to do whatever
is needed for the next steps. So, and that's
very situation dependent, what that might be.
Even your level of vulnerability and what you
put yourself out there with, that depends on
the situation and how stable and secure your
team is and how much they can take that day.
So here you are. aware of your team, aware of
their capabilities, aware of their needs, and
also aware of their vulnerabilities. And you're
using that to help you decide how to lead them
better and lead them forward. You're describing,
there's a distinct difference between a leader
and a boss. Okay. A boss just shouts all the
messages. I love that. Okay. But a leader has
leaders under him. He's teaching his people to
be leaders and you have to be empathetic. You
have to know what they're doing. You have to
get in the trenches with them, tutor them, train
them, coach them. And so that's the main difference.
So with a leader being empathetic, that is truly
a part of being a good leader because there are
plenty of leaders out there that are not good.
Yeah, plenty. Yeah. Can you share a specific
example? where empathy led to a successful negotiation?
Yeah, sure. Okay, so this is a good one. You
guys are going to like this one. I'm going to
try not to give any names, but I was working
for a massive fashion company at the time. It
was actually the spirits division of a fashion
company. So technically it was a vodka. And we
were literally in danger of losing the right.
to use our brand our name and it was a trademark
dispute and it was a sort of a crazy situation
to be in because it was a very high -end luxury
brand that we had been using for years and there
was some real danger that we could lose it and
what where we were though is we were in a negotiation
room it was my team right the team that represented
the other side and the mediator And in the middle
of this negotiation, it was a multi -day, these
negotiations took days and days. In the middle
of the negotiation, halfway through, maybe three
or four days in, we learned that the mediator
does all sorts of business with the lawyers of
the opposing side. So the mediator... is bias
and this is something that should have been disclosed
to us that was not we didn't even know until
we saw him talking to someone else halfway through
the the meetings in the hallways and wow it was
our reaction was obviously we were very angry
we were also very anxious very nervous should
our own research have yielded these results did
we make a mistake in not knowing this how could
we have let this happen how could he have let
this happen And my partner, who was with me at
the time, became extremely angry. And he immediately
accused the mediator of being biased and being
unethical. And, of course, the mediator... was
extremely defensive and very upset at having
been accused of being unethical because in his
mind, he's created his own walls and he's created
his own divisions. And this is not anything that
he needed to have reported, et cetera. Nobody
thinks they're the bad guy. You know what I mean?
And so he's going to walk out. And we're going
to lose all the progress we've made on this mediation
because the mediator is going to walk out. My
partner is going to walk out. All these people
are going to walk out. And so in that moment,
when I went up to the mediator and I just, and
by the way, I want you guys to please take this
advice with a grain of salt because touching
people in business interactions can be tricky.
But I put my hand on his arm like this and I
just said, why don't you stay a minute? Let's
talk about it. right? I understand that you must
be very angry right now. I'm sure you can understand
where we're coming from. Why don't you take a
minute and let's talk about it. Don't leave.
And he turned around and he came back in. He
was still huffing and puffing, but he turned
around and he came back in. And my partner had
left the room. So I said, give me a minute. And
I went out and I convinced my partner to come
back in the room. And after that, This mediator
was bending over backwards to prove how unbiased
he was towards us. So I'm telling you that just
that moment when I slowed down my speech and
gave it a beat of silence and that moment of
empathy was all he needed to come back and all
my partner needed. Both of them are actually
well -intentioned, great people, great professionals.
It just that's how the situation. occurred. And
I've made my share of mistakes in negotiations.
I've said things that I shouldn't have said.
I put my foot in my mouth. I have definitely
embarrassed myself. But you wanted an example
of a win. So I've given you an example of a win,
my friend. I don't want the audience to think
that they're all wins because it's all a process
of learning and a process of growing and a process
of moving forward. But I did learn from that
interaction. And since then, I've reflected a
lot on that touch, too, like where you touch
someone in a professional context really matters
because you want to make sure that the touch
is something that lowers their defenses and not
something that hires their defenses, right or
wrong. Right or wrong, whether you think they're
being overreactionary or not. The idea is I know
me and I know this person and I know the relationship
between the two of us and I know what will calm
them. And of course, I can't say calm down. That's
like the worst thing you can ever say to anybody
when you want them to calm down. But through
that reassurance and that empathy and that understanding,
you can in effect. Slow down the action in the
amygdala that's going on in the person's brain
because they're in fight, flight, or freeze mode,
right? And get them to think rationally. If I
were to walk out of this negotiation right now,
how would it reflect on my career? How would
it reflect on my clients? How would it reflect
on this case? How would it affect my reputation?
If I'm able to sell this negotiation, though,
If I can get these two sides to reach an agreement,
I'm a rock star. And what you want them to do
is you want them to engage in that sort of thinking.
And in order to do that, you have to reduce their
level of volatility and then start with a series
of questions and interactions that lead them
to that conclusion. So when we were all back
at the table, all I had to say is, How great
would it be if we could make this work now? Imagine
the success. And it just reframed things for
everybody else in the room. And in that instance,
it worked. We ended up settling and being able
to continue to use our brand. That's great. You
had mentioned you made several mistakes, of course.
Give me what are the most common mistakes that
people can make when trying to network and how
can they avoid it? That's very interesting. I
would say that really does depend on the person.
There are definitely people whose most common
mistake is not going deep enough and people whose
most common mistake is going too deep. For instance,
because sometimes, listen, I'm just at a networking
event. I'm not here to tell you my life story
and I don't really want to hear yours. I want
to connect with you, but I don't need you to
go that deep in. It's making me uncomfortable.
And then there are people who are so surface
level, so shallow that it never moves beyond
the small talk. And small talk is literally a
filler. It's used so you can start to feel each
other out, judge each other's tone, body language,
and receptivity so that you can actually converse,
right? As opposed to, hey, how's the weather?
But there's people who never move past it. And
it's been incredible to me how those two extremes
can sometimes be at the same event, but they
can. And what I would say is try to examine what's
working for you and what's not working for you
and make small adjustments. Like what Michael
said in the beginning, you do still want to be
authentic. If you're a person who connects deep,
pretending to be shallow isn't going to get you
very far. But if you're consistently noticing
that you're making people uncomfortable with
your questions, or if you're consistently noticing
that the conversation is so shallow that the
person's eyes keep wandering to, can I go talk
to someone else? What's happening in that section
of the room? Could it possibly be more interesting
than this person? And adjust accordingly to that
while still being true to yourself. You can.
What I've found is ever since the pandemic, people
have relied on Zoom and cell phones and everything.
But the days of building your customer base is
gone. And the time of building relationships
is really around. I used to be in the mortgage
business. And I used to come home with a shoebox
full of business cards. Yay. Look how great I
was. It was horrible. I learned that after a
three or four hour networking event, if I come
home with 15 or 20 business cards, because I
know I created a relationship with them, then
I can move on. I did very good. I did very well.
So it's good. So now last but not least. Okay.
So you take a breath. Okay. Last but not least.
Very empathetic of you, Michael Foreman. How
do you see the fusion of stoicism and empathy
shaping the future of networking and leadership?
What I see it doing is helping people avoid,
and it's actually very close to what you just
said. It really dovetails on what you just said.
Helping people avoid the idea that I got to work
the room. Working the room is not the goal. The
goal is to build a handful of relationships that
are going to propel your business and maybe even
your professional life forward, right? You never
know. Some of these people could, in a few years,
play a pivotal role. They could help you get
your next job. It could be a massive shift. So
you don't want to work the room. You want to
know the people in the room. Take a real human
interest in who they are, what is it that's interesting
about them and what they do. So to the extent
you're talking about what someone does for a
living, you're doing it so that you can better
understand that person, now better understand
what it is you can get from them. naturally help
you to get more from one another. It helps to
build this symbiotic relationship. And that symbiosis,
that self -controlled empathic symbiosis is the
best type of leadership out there. And remember
that you are still in control of your part of
the conversation. You are in control of yourself,
no matter what they say. You control how you
respond. So you can twist and take this conversation
to a place that you think is right based on the
relationship you want to build. But take that
minute to find that real human interest. I promise
you, you guys, I don't know if Michael mentioned
it, but I'm also a TED Talk producer. It's my
sort of part -time pro bono community activity.
I've produced over 80 TEDx and TED Talks. And
what I've learned is that everyone, in this world
everyone has an idea that can make things different
and better and that is worth sharing and if i
take a beat and get to know that person now if
i'm in a networking context i want to be careful
i don't spend all my time with one individual
because that's not the intention or the purpose
of the event but i want to go in deep enough
to figure out their humanness and not just the
label on their business card before I move on
to the next person. Outstanding. Very good. Cher,
I can't begin to tell you how glad I am that
you came on this podcast. I feel that we can
talk another two hours if we want to. because
you're very easy to talk to. And you obviously
were very good at what you did because the way
that you speak, the way that you negotiate, everything
had a very calming effect on me. I don't know
about my listeners, but on me. So I think you
did very well. If somebody wanted to get hold
of you, how would they do it? I appreciate it.
I am now all over the place because of this book.
Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I will
warn your audience. I do get a lot of messages
and connection requests on LinkedIn. I promise
I get to every single one. Just sometimes it
takes me a week or two. But if you want to reach
out to me on LinkedIn, I'm more than happy to
respond to you. You can also go to www .sharminkruze
.com. That is my impossible to say and even more
impossible to spell name. And that is the website
I chose. So you can also just Google Stoic Empathy
and I will come up. Very good. Cher, I can't
begin to tell you how nice this was, how great
this was. And I look forward to speaking with
you again. Thank you. I do, too. I had a great
time. Thanks for having me on. Well, hold on,
folks. Don't go anywhere. Let me just read a
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-U -P -K -I -D -S dot org. Well, that's a wrap,
folks. A huge thank you to our special guests
for sharing such incredible insights today. And
of course, a big shout out to you, our amazing
listeners, for tuning in and spending your time
with us. Remember, networking isn't about being
perfect. It's about being present. So take what
you've learned today, get out there and make
some meaningful connections. If you enjoyed this
episode. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us
a review, and share it with someone who could
use a little networking inspiration. Let's keep
the conversation going. You can find me on Apple,
Spotify, YouTube, or my website, michaelaforman.
Remember, until next time, keep practicing, keep
connecting, and keep building those relationships.
This is Michael A. Foreman signing off. Take
care and happy networking.