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I do have a master's in existential phenomenology because philosophy was what I really wanted to do.

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I see.

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And mind, the meaning of mind meant a lot to me and that led to the brain.

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The human brain is the most complex structure in the known universe and we are in the middle of a

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scientific revolution to understand its inner workings. Join us for a conversation with world

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renowned neuroscientists as they visit Rochester. I am Dr. John Foxe, director of the Del Monte

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Institute for Neuroscience at the University of Rochester and you are listening to Neuroscience Perspectives.

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Hi, I'm John Fox. I'm the director of the Del Monte Institute for Neuroscience at the University

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of Rochester and I'm absolutely delighted to be here today with a good friend of mine. I'm really

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one of the world's leading developmental neuroscientists, Bea Luna. Bea, welcome to

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Rochester. It's so great to have you here on this lovely fine day. Thank you for inviting me. You've

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spent all of your career at Pittsburgh but you are not from America, no more than I am myself.

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And will you tell us a little bit about your journey and where you come from and what brought

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you to the United States? I was born in Chile, Santiago, Chile and when I was a kid I lived in

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DC for a couple years, went back to Chile to an American school and then I was let's say an

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adventurous adolescent and I decided to come back to the states where my father lived for a couple

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years to try it out and that was many, many moons ago. And was that like in high school? Yes. I see,

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okay. Yes, as an adolescent, my poor dad. Yeah, it was, yeah. We all have a poor dad. I know, poor dad.

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And I mean, you know, it's an interesting thing because you have a perspective from both countries

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about let's say the science engine and that. Are there things about like why a scientist in the US

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and what does the US mean for neuroscience? No, absolutely. I mean, I've gone there regularly

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to give talks in the top universities in Chile and what really impresses me is the level

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of their science. They do predominantly rodent models and they publish in Science and Nature

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and they're very humble about it and but very focused in what they're doing. Of course, they

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don't have the riches of Pittsburgh where we have a center with three Prismas, seven Tesla, an MMR,

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et cetera, et cetera. So those are advantages and I think when I was growing up as a woman,

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I think it would have been more difficult to have had the educational development that I had in the

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States and be where I am today. Yeah, and that's been an important sort of aspect of your mission,

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I know encouraging and supporting other women in the neurosciences. Absolutely. Tell us,

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you know, what's the genesis of your interest in neurodevelopment, developmental neuroscience?

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I've always been fascinated by development. First of all, I love little kids. Second of all,

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I read adolescence was a very important time in my life. I was so curious, I was so exploratory.

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I had, you know, journals with why, why, why, everything was why and I was, you know, parties

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and boyfriends and altered states of consciousness. All of that was all like exploration in a scientific

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journal. Yes, yes. So I start my graduate career started with looking at like birth to childhood

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and that was fascinating and I became obsessed with the brain. Also, I didn't tell you that I

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do have a master's in existential phenomenology because philosophy was what I really wanted to do.

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I see. And mind, the meaning of mind meant a lot to me and that led to the brain and then how does

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this emerge developmentally? So as a grad student, I looked at this early period and then my conclusion

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of my dissertation is structural integrity is not enough because we did not see the matching that

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you see in adult and I'm like this plasticity is just so significant during development that we

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need to look at functional integrity and fMRI was just emerging, not pediatric yet, yet, but I knew

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it would. So I moved to to John Sweeney, who you know, to John Sweeney's lab and then adolescence

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became my thing more than anything because that's when psychiatric illnesses emerge. Yeah. Also,

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that period where the realization that a young person's brain in their late teens and even into

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their 20s was still a developing brain, it wasn't a fully formed brain and you were part of that

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whole movement. Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I first started, I remember my chair, who's since retired,

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he was like, why are you looking at adolescence? You know, it was that new and I remember him saying,

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you know, I believe in you as long as you're one of the top five people and I'm thinking

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there's fewer than that right now. So yeah, that's easy. Yeah, that's an easy one. Yeah.

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And now it's exploded. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And actually, I mean, you you founded one of the major

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societies in the whole space in the field, the flux society. You want to tell us a little bit

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about flux, how long it's been running and what it's all about? It really was motivated by things

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like study for neuroscience, cognitive neuroscience, where people studying development were stuck in a

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little corner. Right. And I felt that the science was suffering as well. You know, they're all very

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bright, but we just weren't talking to one another. So I started to become obsessed with this idea.

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And talking to other colleagues, they're like, hey, these things can be done. So I rallied some

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friends of mine that we had promised many years ago, one day we will have our own society. I'm like,

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okay, I'm going to do it. Come on in. So we did it. And this was almost 10 years ago. And the idea is

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to bring the community of developmental cognitive neuroscience, you know, primarily those who study

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humans using neuroimaging approaches. But it is essential that we have animal models and post

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murder models, because we need to understand mechanisms. I always say, pretty neuroimaging

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pictures is not sufficient. So we always try with every program chair, I always say, you know, you

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have to put in, you know, pepper it with mechanistic understanding. I followed a model of East Coast,

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West Coast, North America, and international. So because it is an international society,

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it goes abroad and then to the East Coast and the West Coast on a revolving schedule.

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And it's in Paris this year, which is not so bad. It is in Paris this year.

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Outstanding. Very exciting after two virtual conferences.

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Here's just probably a little bit of an unfair question, you know, but as really like one of the

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world's leading developmental neurosciences, when you speak to parents about what you know about

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neural development in the teen, adolescent, early childhood, teenage years, are there key insights

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from science, from your science, from our science, that you say, here's some things you really need

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to know? No, absolutely. I have these conversations often. I had them as a parent of teenagers.

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And I think, you know, some of the realizations are that sensation seeking, exploration, even

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risk taking is normative and can be adaptive. And, you know, the adolescent is transitioning

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to independence and they will search and do what they want to do. My interpretation has been

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restricting is not necessarily going to help them. However, providing a safe, you know, environment

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and an open door policy. You know, for example, I'd rather you don't drink or smoke pot. However,

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if you're in trouble, I don't care if it's four o'clock in the morning, we will pick you up.

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No questions asked. Right, right. Common sense stuff, really. Yeah. It is common sense. I'm giving

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it is common sense. Giving teenagers a bit of freedom to explore because they're literally

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programmed to do that. Exactly. Maybe another unfair question, like key insight, like one key

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insight about physiology in adolescents. One? It doesn't have to be one, but maybe your favorite.

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I think some of the things that have really emerged, particularly from our line of inquiry,

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it's often been perceived and you see it in commercials and so forth. Oh, adolescents don't

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have a prefrontal cortex. And I think everyone's like, ha ha ha, that makes total sense. However,

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one insight that we have found by looking at function and structure, now we're getting more

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molecular, is that in fact, prefrontal cortex becomes available in adolescents. It's driven

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by motivational forces, you know, motivational processes because those are operating at a greater

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level to motivate exploration, but within the context of the availability of prefrontal cortex.

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And I've seen this over and over. I informed a couple of American Medical Association briefs

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to the Supreme Court for life without parole. And there you really had to think about it.

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And you had to think about these crimes, which were very elegant in some ways, with a lot of

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planning, but very much driven by reward and social sorts of aspects. So I think that's been

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a very important insight for me about adolescents. I have many more, but that's one that's been quite

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critical. Let's flip to the future, because I mean, we could talk for hours about the insights. And

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so of course, we don't have that time. But where are we going? What's on the horizon here? Are

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there things that get you really excited about the neurosciences? Do we have all the tools we need in

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the tool chest at the moment? Or if you had the magic wand, what would you do? Oh, wow, that's

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the unfair question. No, no, no, I think we never have all the tools. And when you're looking at,

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for example, human neuroimaging, it's fantastic the sorts of things that we can speak to, but they're

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all very much based on inferences and indirect assessments of things that people looking at

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cellular and molecular and neurophysiology have a closer link to. So I think not only just tools,

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which yes, we can improve the spatial resolution, temporal resolution, et cetera, but what I would

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like to see in the future is real collaborations between animal, human, postmortem, people really

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talking together. Not just, you know, center grants where everybody does their own thing and they meet

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once a year, but actually informing one another. So really advocating a change to the model of,

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you know, rather than having all the developmental neuroscience to do imaging in one part of the

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building and talking to themselves, maybe a bit like you were saying about with flux and trying

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to get all these different people at different levels together. Amazing. Yeah. You won a

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presidential prize for your science back in the George Bush Jr. era, was that right? And went to

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the White House. Yes. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that experience? Yeah, that was a

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huge surprise and a huge boost early in my career. So it's the presidential early career award for

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science and engineering. And it was me and Carl DeSaroth who wanted that year neuroscience wise.

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And then there were physicists and all kinds of people. And yeah, at the time I wasn't too

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thrilled. I would have much rather had Obama give me, but it was wonderful. Yeah. And I do remember

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seeing Carl DeSaroth give a talk a few years after we got the prize. And I felt like going back and

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saying, I am not worthy. Please take my back. For our viewers and listeners who may not all know who

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Carl DeSaroth is, he's the sort of founder of Optogenetics, which is one of the extraordinary

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techniques in the field, but definitely great company to be keeping at the White House. I know.

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And he's so nice and he says he blew up the photo of all of us, has it in his lab. So he sees me

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every day. Wonderful. And that led on to you being on, you were actually on the scientific council

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for the NIH with Francis Collins, the director. Yeah. I was in the advisory council for the

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director, the ACD. And that was a wonderful experience. And you know, a woman, a woman of

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color. I'm Latina and so forth. It was funny because they were so welcoming that first day.

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They're like, Dr. Luna, please don't be shy. We want to hear what you have to say. If they only knew

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who they were talking to. And I'm thinking, oh my God. Well, that's really great though, right? I

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imagine, you know, you have young women in your lab. I know a few of them. And, you know, to see

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the boss go off to the White House to be on the council of investigators, advising the director

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of NIH as a Latina woman, it's, you know, I mean, must really give them a good inspiration and

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confidence. I mean, and this is, I mean, you must be proud of this. Yeah, I, not at the, you know,

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as it's happening, I don't realize it, but I always feel very fortunate when people come up and say,

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oh my God, you've really inspired or motivated me to persist. And, you know, what advice do you

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give? And I'm like, persistence is the number one. Number one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's kind of

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maybe a little controversial. What about, talk to me about this work-life balance, because that's

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very, very much very prominent in our trainees minds. And, you know, they're not wrong. We,

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when you and I came up in the sciences, it was a little bit different. And, you know, there were

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expectations around how you would work that were really unreasonable when you look at it. But how,

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what do you say to the young women in your lab about work-life balance? I'm being specific

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about the women as well. Yes, things have evolved. When I was a postdoc, it was insane. I mean,

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you know, I had little kids and I, my work hours were just insane. And I don't want to do that

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in my laboratory. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I can work long hours sometimes. That's my choice.

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That doesn't mean that people around me have to. Some choose to, some don't. And how do you

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communicate that to them though? I'm extremely supportive. I've never said no to someone wanting

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to take time off. Right. In fact, when they take time off to see their parents, I'm like,

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that's wonderful. That's what you should do. That's what you should do because now I have kids that

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I want to come visit. So I'm very supportive that way. I've had lots of people marry, have children

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and even like faculty in the laboratory. And it's very important for me. They're like, oh, you know,

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my kid is sick. I'm like, family comes first. Family first. Do not come here. I don't want to

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hear you until everything is back to normal. Well, I think that's a fantastic message for

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the young folks that are listening in. Last thing, last thing. I have the great good fortune of

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working very closely with you on one of the great projects I think ever undertaken by the National

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Institute of Health, the ABCD project. Want to say something about ABCD, what it means to you,

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what it means to Pittsburgh? So ABCD is the adolescent brain cognitive developmental study.

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And it's following more than 10,000 individuals from the age of nine now to the age of 19,

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looking at their cognition and brain structure and function, mental illnesses, you know,

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biomarkers, stress, environment, hair, genetics, everything. Because now we really are, you know,

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we realize that that is the key to understanding lifetime trajectories, what is occurring during

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that time period. And we know and we had a paper out in Nature recently, really showing that if you

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want to have these like brain connectivity and behavior relationships, you need thousands of

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thousands of individuals. So I think it's a wonderful contribution to science. This data is

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available for anyone. And people are constantly mining and coming up with new questions and so

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forth. So I'm very happy and very proud as I'm sure that you are as well to be part of this amazing

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effort. Excellent. Bea Luna, what a pleasure to have you in Rochester and really to get the

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opportunity to introduce you to our community. Thank you for being here. Thanks for the time.

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Thank you. Always great to talk to you, John.