1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 I think even for touch, we still don't fully understand it. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,540 I think robots are, obviously these days, 3 00:00:08,540 --> 00:00:11,360 the robots are become more and more fancier, 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,160 but they still are not as good as our human fingers. 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,160 So I think part of that is because we don't fully understand 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,480 the sense of touch and how we use it, 7 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,760 it's sort of an online feedback manner 8 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,280 to control our fingers. 9 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,600 The human brain is the most complex structure 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:29,760 in the known universe. 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,240 And we are in the middle of a scientific revolution 12 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,320 to understand its inner workings. 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:35,760 Join us for a conversation 14 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,440 with world renowned neuroscientists 15 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,060 as they visit Rochester. 16 00:00:39,060 --> 00:00:40,440 I am Dr. John Foxe, 17 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,720 Director of the Del Monte Institute for Neuroscience 18 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,480 at the University of Rochester, 19 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:47,320 and you are listening to Neuroscience Perspectives. 20 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:50,560 I'm John Foxe. 21 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,000 I'm the Director of the Del Monte Institute for Neuroscience 22 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,880 at the University of Rochester. 23 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,720 And I'd like to welcome you to another episode 24 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,440 of Neuroscience Perspectives. 25 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,440 Today, we're very, very pleased to have with us 26 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,600 a guest from all the way from Boston here to Rochester, 27 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,640 where it's a frigid day indeed, Professor Fan Wang, 28 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,040 who is a professor of brain and cognitive sciences 29 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,640 at the world famous McGovern Institute for Brain Sciences 30 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,560 at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT. 31 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,520 Fan, it's really wonderful to have you here today. 32 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:24,360 My pleasure. 33 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,480 The chat with us. 34 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:30,480 You know, I know you study touch, 35 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:31,880 sensation of touch, 36 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,760 and have had a specific interest in touch and pain. 37 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:36,600 Yes. 38 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,240 And more recently, this has evolved into looking towards 39 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,520 more efficacious treatments for drug addiction. 40 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,760 That's quite a span of work there. 41 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,280 Let's hear a little bit about, you know, 42 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,720 how did you get into studying touch? 43 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:50,880 What about that made, 44 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,720 was of particular interest to you? 45 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,680 As a PhD student, I work with Richard Axel, 46 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,920 and I studied smell. 47 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,120 And it was a really fun time. 48 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:06,120 I had really a best of time in my life as a graduate student. 49 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,240 And as I finishing up and I was looking for post-docs, 50 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,080 and I was thinking, which area should I get into? 51 00:02:16,340 --> 00:02:20,600 And I remembered in graduate school, 52 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,840 we always talk about this, you know, 53 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,240 there's a factory sensory map. 54 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,600 And then, but then who is reading the map, right? 55 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,520 And then Richard used to say, 56 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,600 there's no ghosts in the machine, right? 57 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,960 So that always made me wonder, 58 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,240 because we always say, I am looking, 59 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,880 I am smelling, I am feeling, right? 60 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,920 So who am I? 61 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:44,240 And then I was deeply interested 62 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,620 in understanding this question. 63 00:02:46,620 --> 00:02:49,400 What gave us a sense of self? 64 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:50,320 Who am I? 65 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,080 And I figured I needed to study something 66 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,400 related to the body, 67 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,920 because when we talk about ourselves, 68 00:02:56,920 --> 00:02:59,240 we always point at our body, right? 69 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,200 So that made me wanted to study touch. 70 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,280 So somatosensation, the bodily senses. 71 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,640 So that is sort of the fundamental reason 72 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:12,600 why I decided to go into the bodily sensations. 73 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,600 It's an amazing connection you've just made 74 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,600 between something so fundamental, 75 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,080 the sense of touch and the maps of touch, 76 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,600 and a deep philosophical question, who am I? 77 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:23,600 I'm here. 78 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,440 And I love the expression, no ghost in the machine. 79 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:28,520 Yes. 80 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,640 Help our viewers and listeners understand that. 81 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,180 What do we mean by that, the ghost in the machine? 82 00:03:36,180 --> 00:03:39,040 Yeah, so if you look into the brain, 83 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,480 you can find somatosensory cortex, visual cortex, 84 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,540 auditory cortex, motor cortex, 85 00:03:44,540 --> 00:03:48,480 but it's always like there is an eye there, right? 86 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,680 I feel as if there is someone looking 87 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,080 at your somatosensory cortex telling you 88 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,360 what you're feeling or what you're moving or what you're seeing. 89 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,600 But if you look at it, there's no region in the brain 90 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,320 that is an eye, right? 91 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,120 Me, I, self. 92 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:06,640 So what is that? 93 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,920 And I don't know, I still don't know what is the question. 94 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,000 That's what scientists mean. 95 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,160 There's no ghost in the machine. 96 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,960 There's no soul in a particular region in the brain, 97 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,880 even though we think neuroactivity is sort of the basis 98 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,520 for the sense of self. 99 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,520 But who is this knower, this reader of the brain activity? 100 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,120 I think, you know, this is sort of standard. 101 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,560 A lot of the paradigms, the models we use boil down 102 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,640 to some little man or woman pulling the levers in there, 103 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:38,640 switching back and forth. 104 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,680 But of course, that's you yourself 105 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,560 and how that self is represented. 106 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,680 We talk about things like emergent properties 107 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,840 of like the network dynamics of a brain, 108 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:50,480 but this is still a complete mystery, really. 109 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,760 Still a complete mystery, yes. 110 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,160 I love how you've related something quite fundamental, 111 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,440 really, in the study of touch. 112 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,000 Tell us about then from touch to pain 113 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,160 and why that's important. 114 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,240 If I may be truly honest with you, okay. 115 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:12,240 So when I was writing touch grant application for R01s 116 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,240 and you always try to relate to human health, right? 117 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,080 Yeah, always. 118 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,720 Okay, so initially I'm really only interested in touch. 119 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,440 But then when you try to write grant, 120 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:29,120 it seems that touch can become painful 121 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,000 in neuropathic conditions. 122 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,840 So there's a lot more pain opportunity there. 123 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:39,080 So that was initial, I would just made that conceptual link, 124 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,560 touch can become painful. 125 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,600 But then over the years, it actually really become 126 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,080 a deep interest of mine. 127 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:51,080 And I really decided the pain is what I also 128 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,720 truly fundamentally and both scientifically 129 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,440 and as a scientist, I feel like it's my society duty 130 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:00,720 that I'm interested in pain, 131 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,120 because I pain, especially chronic pain, 132 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,920 affecting so many people. 133 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,720 That's now a very big area of research in my lab. 134 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,520 Fantastic, and yeah, I mean, this is such 135 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,600 an extraordinarily unmet need in the community. 136 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,320 So many people suffering from chronic pain 137 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,680 with very little in the line of solutions. 138 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,400 And of course, we've been through a huge opioid epidemic 139 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:24,960 on the backs of trying to help people 140 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,240 with chronic pain issues. 141 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,400 Can you draw that link for us then between, 142 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,560 really fundamental mapping of your fingers 143 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,960 and your joints in cortex and this transition 144 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,040 into a chronic pain condition? 145 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,640 How do you see that? 146 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,560 Yeah, actually today in my talk, 147 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,480 I will actually talk about it. 148 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,520 What is the role of the sensory cortex, 149 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,280 somatosensory cortex in pain, right? 150 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:52,320 Because we study touch, touch as a clear map 151 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:53,760 in the somatosensory cortex. 152 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,440 So Pantheon many years ago stimulated the brain. 153 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,640 And if you stimulate the sensory cortex, 154 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,400 you evoke sensations. 155 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,720 And that's always tactile sensation, touch sensation. 156 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,600 No matter how strongly you stimulate 157 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,320 the somatosensory cortex, you never evoke pain. 158 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:11,880 Oh, that's very interesting. 159 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,160 Just for our listeners, 160 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,280 Penfield was a great neurologist, neurosurgeon. 161 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:17,800 And when we were talking with stimulating the brain, 162 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,440 he was literally in true craniotomy, 163 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,400 stimulating directly onto the human brain 164 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,000 while they were having brain surgeries. 165 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,800 Yeah, yet you do know which part of your body 166 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,000 feel pain, right? 167 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,720 So there is a localization. 168 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,840 And then you know what kind of pain you feel. 169 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,160 Like it's pre-clean, or it's just a dull pain, 170 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:38,480 and all of these things. 171 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,400 So that seems you do require sensory cortex. 172 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,640 However, why is it that stimulating the sensory cortex 173 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:46,880 never evoke pain, right? 174 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,280 So pain must have another component. 175 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,000 So the only area in cortex that Pantheon stimulated 176 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000 that evoke pain is part of the insula. 177 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Okay, so when he stimulated the insula cortex, 178 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,560 the patients can, yeah, sometimes, 179 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:04,680 have a pain sensation. 180 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:05,560 Interesting. 181 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,000 In fact, pain has two components, right? 182 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,080 One is the sensory component. 183 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,600 The other is this emotional component. 184 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,480 I would argue without this emotional suffering component, 185 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,840 then it's not pain, it's just an intense sensation. 186 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,840 So my interest in pain, from touch perspective, 187 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,440 I feel like touch give you a location. 188 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,160 And also, it's sort of a train your system 189 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,960 have a fine discrimination, right? 190 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,840 So that help you to localize the pain, 191 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,160 and also help discriminate the pain, 192 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,840 and that help you to pay attention 193 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,200 to which part of your body are in pain. 194 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,200 Whereas there's a separate system 195 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,280 that encode emotional aspect. 196 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,840 So my work is trying to link both these aspects together 197 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,400 to derive a full understanding of pain. 198 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,160 And I think in case of chronic pain, 199 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,320 if you do chronic pain patient with functional MRI, 200 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,200 the somatosensory cortex is not so activated. 201 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,320 It's actually sort of seems to be amygdala, 202 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,600 insular or the other sort of emotional regions. 203 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,680 Limbic structure is, yeah. 204 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:17,720 So it's the persistence of this emotional reactivity 205 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,200 and some kind of an iterative process then 206 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,520 that just deeply encodes this. 207 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,120 And it's so hard then for folks to get out of it. 208 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,360 It's so hard. 209 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,960 And we don't really have effective medications for this. 210 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,400 No, opiates it's the same, right? 211 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,920 Unfortunately, it can cause dependence, addictions. 212 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,120 Can we go back? 213 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:40,840 You said something very interesting 214 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,440 and I suspect there are many scientists out there. 215 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,360 I know it really resonated with me, 216 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,120 which is you start out studying something very basic 217 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,160 and you do it for the pure knowledge of it. 218 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,920 And you end up through the pragmatics 219 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:56,840 of the grant system and the funding system. 220 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,000 And it's not unreasonable, the taxpayer pays for our work 221 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,840 for them to say, I want you to be doing something 222 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,920 that has pertinence and relevance to our health system. 223 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,680 That's, this is we, after all, we get our money 224 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:09,640 from the National Institute of Health. 225 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,400 But, and of course then that took you up 226 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,000 and became a passion too. 227 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,560 And I have to say, that's exactly parallel 228 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:19,400 to how my own career went. 229 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:21,840 But I do think it's important, right, 230 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,480 for people to understand that sometimes 231 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,440 you need to just study something 232 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,000 for the pure knowledge of it 233 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,680 without the specter of the funding engine 234 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,440 or the motivation of a disease model. 235 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,480 Because finding out how things work 236 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,720 in and of itself is important. 237 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:39,920 I completely agree. 238 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,920 That's why I'm, you know, I study the whisker system, 239 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,640 rodent whisker, they use whiskers as tactile sensors. 240 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,720 And I remember every time I publish something, 241 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,840 I tell my mother, she's in China, she's like, 242 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,600 why should I care, right? 243 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,040 But it was like, but I care, 244 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,680 I find it super interesting. 245 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:05,680 So I just like, I think I did it, 246 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,760 and I'm still doing it for the sake of curiosity. 247 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:13,760 And I find it a fascinating topic and system to study. 248 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,360 But I do understand scientists has also society duties. 249 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,280 Yeah, absolutely. 250 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,560 But I think, you know, even for touch, right? 251 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:25,560 You know, we still don't fully understand it, right? 252 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:29,360 I mean, I think robots are obviously, 253 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,840 these days the robots are become more and more fancier, 254 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,960 but they still are not as good as our human fingers, right? 255 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:36,800 Yeah, exactly. 256 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:37,840 Yeah, so I think part of that is 257 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,520 because we don't fully understand the sense of touch 258 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:41,960 and how we use it, 259 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,240 it's sort of in online feedback manner 260 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:45,440 to control our fingers. 261 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,920 Yeah, and developmentally too. 262 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,360 I mean, right, touch, correct me if I'm wrong, 263 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:51,760 I'm no expert in this, 264 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,600 but this is the first and most basic formative sense, right? 265 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,720 This is what an infant coming from the womb is, 266 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,280 you know, this somatic sensation and smell 267 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,520 and really, you know, and attachment to the mother 268 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,880 is very, very connected to touch. 269 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,240 And then our emotional health is very connected 270 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,880 to how touch impacts us across early development. 271 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,000 Absolutely, right? 272 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,000 There was a study in Romania that infants left, 273 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,320 you know, not be hugged, and they don't develop well, 274 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,800 some of them even die, right? 275 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:24,640 Yes, exactly. 276 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,760 So touch is absolutely essential. 277 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,360 And it also sets the boundary, right, 278 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,360 of yourself versus, you know, the rest of world. 279 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,920 So that's why I, you know, coming back to my interest 280 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,040 in understanding self is really, 281 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,800 it's the touch sensory receptors all over your body, right? 282 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,880 That give you a boundary, you are in this body. 283 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:45,720 Yeah. 284 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,880 And I think it's also really is the fundamental sense 285 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,920 for who you are and why you are in this body, 286 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,640 you embody this body, right? 287 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 288 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:57,120 Fantastic. 289 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,600 You mentioned your mom in China. 290 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,440 So let's talk about you. 291 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,440 You know, you grew up in China 292 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,120 and you studied in China early. 293 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,120 I have it on good authority 294 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,080 that you were very interested in science 295 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,160 very early in life. 296 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,120 Tell us about that. 297 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,680 Why did that passion develop? 298 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,000 Is it something from your family 299 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,920 or was it just curiosity? 300 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,640 I would say it's probably just curiosity. 301 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,360 And also part of that is I'm always a nerdy child. 302 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,360 So socially, I don't feel like I have lots of friends 303 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,800 or I get along with other kids. 304 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,360 But when I read scientific books 305 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,280 or when I'm just studying it, I'm totally in my element. 306 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,640 So honestly, I am always the number one student 307 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,240 from elementary school, middle school, high school, 308 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:50,640 and college. 309 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,880 So I'm just a sort of a nerd. 310 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,520 I think it's probably genetics. 311 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,280 I'm proud of it. 312 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:57,800 Yes. 313 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,360 So I know I'm always gonna be a scientist. 314 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:01,200 You did. 315 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,080 How early, I mean, could you quantify that? 316 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,840 How early are we talking about? 317 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,040 You know, as a... 318 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:07,760 As early as in middle school. 319 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,480 I just find that reading scientific books, 320 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,960 a lot of things I learn on my own. 321 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,040 So I'm just so interested in learning everything. 322 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,880 I find it more interesting than sort of a go out with friends. 323 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:22,760 It's very interesting. 324 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,280 So you really draw onto the science components 325 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,320 of schooling. 326 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,040 And then when it came to things like the humanities 327 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,520 and that, were you walking away from them 328 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,920 or did you bring them along with you at the same time? 329 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,960 Like your literature and... 330 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,840 I am good at tests. 331 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,360 In a Chinese system, you have to do well in tests 332 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:43,800 to rise to the top. 333 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,080 So that, but that's study, right? 334 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,640 I can study, I study humanity, 335 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,520 and all of that I have a really good memory. 336 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,800 I think in the Chinese education system, 337 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,920 if you have a good memory, you can do very well in tests. 338 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,560 So I think I probably just have a very good memory. 339 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,120 I memorize things very well. 340 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,280 I would not say I have a deep interest 341 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,560 in the sort of a literature or history. 342 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,840 I'm just more of a STEM. 343 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,160 Very, very interesting. 344 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,000 That's great. 345 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,000 So tell us then how, so you did your university in... 346 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:19,760 Yeah, Tsinghua. 347 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,160 Yeah, yeah, in Beijing. 348 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,000 In Beijing. 349 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,800 And then what brought you to the States? 350 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:24,880 How did that come about? 351 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,960 Or was that always the plan? 352 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,400 No. 353 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,840 So I would honestly say that I didn't think about 354 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,840 going abroad, but I got into Tsinghua in 1988 in the fall. 355 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,440 1989 is Tiananmen Square. 356 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,360 So I was on the ground on Tiananmen Square for two months. 357 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:46,200 Goodness me. 358 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,560 So that obviously in the end led to the crackdown and all that. 359 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,920 At that moment I felt like I need to leave here. 360 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,920 I felt like I do need a country that you can sort of 361 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,440 express and have some freedom, right? 362 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,480 And all that and democracy. 363 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,480 So the whole thing started as a democratic demonstration 364 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,960 and that turned out obviously, sadly. 365 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,400 And looking back at that time I just felt like 366 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,200 I need to get out of China. 367 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,120 It was too much of a dictatorship and that. 368 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:31,520 So that motivated me. 369 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:36,320 Then I studied English and did well in TOEFL and GRE. 370 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,120 And applied. 371 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,240 Applied those good test taking skills. 372 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:41,840 Yes, yes exactly. 373 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,040 And I'm also very lucky because at that time Columbia 374 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,040 sent a person to China to interview these applicants. 375 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,960 And I interviewed well so I got an offer from Columbia. 376 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,520 So I went to Columbia for my PhD. 377 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,200 And that's where you met Richard Axel 378 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:02,600 and it takes off from there. 379 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:03,440 Yeah. 380 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,280 And then your trajectory. 381 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,680 So you did your PhD at Columbia and then you were 382 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,800 a post-doc at Stanford, is that right? 383 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,000 Right, so Mark Tressie-Lavine is my mentor. 384 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,920 He was at UCSF so we started UCSF then moved to Stanford. 385 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,320 So I just simplified it as Stanford. 386 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,920 And a big chunk of your career at Duke University. 387 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:23,760 Yes, yes. 388 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:24,600 Somewhat warmer climbs. 389 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:25,880 17 years in Duke. 390 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,320 17 years in Duke. 391 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,960 So you're quite some time now in the United States. 392 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,960 I really appreciate you getting into how politics 393 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,120 interface with your love of science 394 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:40,600 and coming to a free country. 395 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,440 I mean I'm an immigrant as well 396 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,040 and there's great attraction to America 397 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,440 especially for anybody interested in the sciences. 398 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:51,480 We won't go too deep into politics 399 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,080 but we must distress you a little bit 400 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,520 to see the politics of today and worry about 401 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,800 where freedom and the science engine is going. 402 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,560 It does worry me a little bit 403 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,560 but I've now taken more of a Zen approach. 404 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,720 I've decided whatever it is, it is. 405 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:13,920 We'll just deal with it. 406 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,000 We're back to philosophy. 407 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,560 Excellent, excellent, excellent. 408 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,800 Now there's a drug addiction component. 409 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,080 So how do we go from touch to pain to addiction? 410 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:25,280 I think we probably know a little bit 411 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,880 but tell us about that. 412 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,000 Yeah, so that again is actually a new project 413 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,040 after I moved to MIT. 414 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,200 And I at that time thought, 415 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,160 okay now I got this new fancy startup. 416 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,280 I want to really do something 417 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,960 even more helping the people and society. 418 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,240 So and as you said, this opioid pandemic, 419 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,040 what is opioid epidemic? 420 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,720 Sorry, my English sometimes is not very good. 421 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,160 No, that's perfectly fine. 422 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,160 So and I felt like it's because I study pain, right? 423 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,160 And then a lot of people become opioid dependent 424 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,600 because of opioid is the prescription drug 425 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,000 for treating chronic pain. 426 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,080 So I felt like it's my duty as a scientist 427 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,440 and to study this. 428 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,880 So it's a new direction 429 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,280 and I'm very fortunate to have recruited a postdoc 430 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,160 and I have two technicians working on it. 431 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,240 It's a difficult question to tackle in a way 432 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,480 when I was talking to donors 433 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,480 because this is not a nice funded. 434 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,240 I haven't had any prior publication in this area 435 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,400 therefore it's impossible to get. 436 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,040 Yeah, so I have to publish first. 437 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,240 So I was trying to talk to the donors 438 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,560 and then what I got is two responses. 439 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,120 First is why do you study this? 440 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,920 People can just stop taking the drugs. 441 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:58,880 If only that were true. 442 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,920 Yeah, they blame the people themselves. 443 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:02,760 Yeah, of course. 444 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,240 Okay, very sad. 445 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,000 And the second response is 446 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,400 there is National Institute of Drug Addiction, right? 447 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,880 NIDA has been there for 30 years. 448 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,240 If they haven't come up with anything, 449 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,040 what are you going to do? 450 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,120 That's so different. 451 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:20,200 Wow. 452 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,920 People have actually said that to you. 453 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,160 Amazing, amazing. 454 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,760 Yeah, it's a hard question. 455 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,560 I mean the first one obviously is easy to address, right? 456 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,400 A lot of times it's now their fault 457 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,640 and it's not as simple as they like of will, right? 458 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,800 It's really truly a disease. 459 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,080 Yes, absolutely. 460 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,160 And it's actually a brain-body disease. 461 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,800 It's not just here. 462 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,640 It's their entire physical physiology 463 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,920 is altered by the drug making it so hard 464 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,400 to overcome the addiction. 465 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,560 Now the second question I have sought very hard. 466 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,520 Yes, what am I going to do, right? 467 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,960 But you can almost ask the same question 468 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,320 for almost every area of research, right? 469 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:04,160 For pain. 470 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,880 Neuron and NIDA has been funding pain for also years. 471 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,840 So I thought, okay, I need to do something 472 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,080 maybe a little bit more unique, right? 473 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,040 A niche. 474 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,080 So the goal centered in the addiction field 475 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,160 is to develop an animal model 476 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,760 of self-administration of drugs, right? 477 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,360 So we developed this in mice, 478 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:29,960 which is somewhat harder than rat 479 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,640 because mouse has a very small vein. 480 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,280 You can put a casseter in and then hook up to a pump. 481 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,800 And when the mouse press a lever, 482 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,440 they will get intravenous infusion, right? 483 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,800 So we developed a model for cocaine self-administration 484 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,320 and fentanyl administration, 485 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,840 and then they work very nicely. 486 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,760 So what happens that hasn't been done 487 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,600 in these animal models 488 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,720 are in vivo monitoring of neural activities. 489 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:01,560 Right, right. 490 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:02,800 In these tasks. 491 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:03,960 So that's what I'm doing. 492 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,920 So we're doing a lot of obviously, 493 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,680 the obvious things is dopamine sensor, 494 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,960 fiber photometry in different regions. 495 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,960 But the more sophisticated ones are 496 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,640 multi-electro recordings 497 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,320 from multiple brain regions simultaneously. 498 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,880 It's the reason that it is hard 499 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,840 is the mouse is doing these tasks, right? 500 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,600 With all these hookups. 501 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,120 And if you have an electrode, 502 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:29,560 the mouse move around, 503 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,080 these two systems can tangle. 504 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:31,920 Sure, of course. 505 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,240 So the mouse stop doing it. 506 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,760 So you have to solve the technical issue. 507 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,040 So yeah, so but it's finally working. 508 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,440 Working in extraordinarily small spaces. 509 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,400 Yes, exactly. 510 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,800 With critters that don't necessarily 511 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,840 wanna just comply with what you have to do. 512 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,920 Let me ask you a question actually. 513 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,400 So this drug self-administration model 514 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,160 is very well known in the neurosciences. 515 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,560 Does every mouse self-administer 516 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,960 or is it a sub population? 517 00:22:58,960 --> 00:22:59,800 Good question. 518 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,640 It's a spectrum, okay. 519 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,000 Some self-administer more, 520 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,840 some self-administer less. 521 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,360 So we're also trying to figure out. 522 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,280 Which of course goes right back to, 523 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,440 there's some mice who can help themselves 524 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,920 and there's others who can take it or leave it. 525 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,560 And if you're a person who can take it or leave it, 526 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,840 it can be hard to put yourself into the position 527 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,960 of somebody who just can't live without. 528 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:23,800 Exactly. 529 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,760 And we all need a little bit more compassion. 530 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,800 You started out talking about being a child 531 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,200 that maybe didn't socialize so much 532 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,600 and didn't worry so much about people 533 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,840 because you were concentrated on your science. 534 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,720 But one thing that's coming out loud and clear 535 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,120 is your compassion for the people 536 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:40,040 who are suffering out there. 537 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,160 And I think that's a really nice aspect 538 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,080 of the work that you're doing. 539 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,320 It's clear that human suffering is at the back end 540 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,680 of what you're trying to do. 541 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:55,000 Part of that is because as I growing up 542 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,120 and then become more mature 543 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,760 and then being in science field longer and longer, 544 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,200 I realized it's not about me, right? 545 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,840 Whatever I do, it's no fun if it's only about me, 546 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,520 my fame and my success. 547 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,840 I publish another paper. 548 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,840 And whatever I do is there's all these resources 549 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,560 and supports and then taxpayers' money 550 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,120 made me able to do what I want to do. 551 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,000 I felt like it's my turn. 552 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,800 I have to return some of those. 553 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,880 I think that's an absolutely fantastic sentiment. 554 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,400 Thank you for being here in Rochester 555 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,480 on this freezing cold day. 556 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,920 We really appreciate you. 557 00:24:37,920 --> 00:25:04,520 Thank you for having me here.