What if fear isn't the problem, but the signal?
Today on The Thoroughbred Journey, I'm sitting
down with Patrick Sweeney, known as the Fear
Guru, and this conversation is different. We
break down the neuroscience of fear, amygdala
hijack, fight, flight, or freeze, and how you
can train courage like a muscle so fear stops
blocking your logic and starts fueling your growth.
Patrick survived cancer, completely shifted how
he lived, and turned fear into a system that's
helped people move forward towards what's possible.
And for founders and entrepreneurs, we get into
his Buddha doctrine, where belief comes first,
because belief is the missing piece that closes
the belief gap and turns chaos into cadence.
And if fear has been influencing your choices,
this conversation right here will give you language,
clarity, and a real way forward. What's up, fam?
Before we get into this conversation, let me
say this. Look, I know it's a thing, right? But
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you, if it lifts you, centers you, or helps you
see your life a little clearer... I invite you
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that like, subscribe, let's breathe in, get present.
step into the conversation. We are here back
on a another episode of the travel journey. And
today we're gonna be talking about fear, man.
And fear is a fame for people. And really, you
know, we're we have transitioned our podcast
to this season to talking about disruption, our
purpose after disruption. And again, fear plays
somewhere in that. But we have Patrick Sweeney,
who is Nicknamed the fear guru. And I'm excited
to have you on, have a conversation with you,
go into the depths of what this looks like and
how it really shapes your life and how you experienced
it. So Patrick, welcome. I'm really happy to
have you on. Michael, thank you so much for having
me. And thank you to all the listeners who are
taking time out of their day to tune in and listen
to our conversation. Yeah, we have some great
listeners and watchers and, you know, I'm really
excited for them to hear this conversation. And
like I said, you know, at the top of the show,
Nickname Fear Guru. Like, what's that? Talk about
that a little bit. Where'd that come from? Well,
I had a very disruptive experience in my life.
We can talk about it a little bit later if you
want. Basically, I grew up living the diary of
a wimpy kid. I was terrified of everything. I
saw a plane crash when I was six years old on
TV and flying was by far my biggest fear. I couldn't
look at the tail of a plane that had a Delta
logo on it without flipping out, without my primitive
brain taking over. Then after that disruptive
experience, as you call it, near -death experience,
as I call it, I changed 180 degrees. So I became
Captain Courageous. So literally one year, diary
of Olympic kid, next year, Captain Courageous.
And courage became my superpower and fear became
my fuel. And I was doing a charity bike ride
in Boston. And it was like a hundred mile bike
ride. And I got in a group. You start doing this,
you get in a group with people kind of the same.
Speed is you. One of the guys was a neuroscientist
from Tufts University in Boston. And I said,
hey, I got a question for you about the brain.
And I said, you know, this is what happened to
me. And I said, how did that happen and why?
And he said, well, it's your amygdala. that's
your fear center and he said why don't you come
to my office next week we'll grab a coffee and
i'll explain it to you so i went into his office
he sat down he explained everything about the
amygdala our fear center and he said you know
if you find this stuff interesting you should
go over to harvard and talk to my friend scott
oar because he's doing all this uh research on
ptsd and and storing memories so i went over
to Harvard had lunch with Scott Orr. And he said,
Oh, you know, if you really want to find out
about how the brain works, and how you bring
in information and data, you should go see Earl
Miller at MIT. So these guys, all these neuroscientists
are like handing me off one to the other. And
they're all amazing guys, like cute big forehead,
right? Like big brain guys. And super smart.
And most of them, I'd have to ask them the question
like two or three times, but I don't mind doing
that. I don't care if I look stupid because I
want to understand what they're saying. And so
these guys, after that third visit, I thought
the research they're doing is so cool. It takes
two years to be peer -reviewed in a study before
it gets out to the public, and it's really helpful
information. When it gets peer -reviewed, it's
in some journal that people don't even understand
half the words. So I said, okay, you know what
I'm going to do? I'm going to interview as many
neuroscientists as I can about their research
on fear, and I'm going to write a book about
it. So I wrote the book Fear is Fuel, published
in March 2020, hit number five on the Wall Street
Journal bestseller list, and has helped hundreds,
maybe thousands, I guess thousands of people
now get over their fear and learn how to use
it as fuel. That's the story on how I became
the fear guru. The guru. There's a lot of things
there, right? You've been on many podcasts. You've
been on, I say many, I don't know. My research
gave me at least four. For me, that's many. But
what is the question about fear? Because you've
been asked these questions over and over again.
And so I know that you go in and out. You know
the world of what fear is. And we'll get to the
neuroscience of it all. But what is one of the
questions that hasn't been asked of you that
people can kind of learn from what fear is all
about? That hasn't been asked of me. Yeah. Is
there something that you like sit with and be
like, I wish I would have shared this or, you
know, I wish that could, you know, somebody would
get this knowledge from me in this way. I think,
you know, I mean, I've done. like 500 speeches
since the book came out. So I think just about
every question has been asked, except I don't
know if anyone's directly asked me this, and
it's a little bit of a complex neuroscience behind
it, but I'm not sure anyone's asked me how to
build courage. what it looks like to build courage,
because everyone talks about fear. So with fear,
we've got the amygdala. The amygdala handles
the three F's, fight, flight, or freeze. And
the smart part of our brain is called the prefrontal
cortex. And that's right behind your forehead.
And that's how we make rational decisions. So
if we're going to weigh one choice versus the
other, we're going to do it in that prefrontal
cortex. That's our intelligence, basically. The
amygdala is running this 2 million year old piece
of software. Basically what it does is it says
when we can't predict the future, we're either
going to fight, flight, or freeze. It's going
to be one of those three. It takes over the prefrontal
cortex. When your amygdala hijacks, you can't
think of anything else except doing those fight,
flight, or freeze. there's something really interesting
there's there is one study one good study i found
from uh university of of like tel aviv or something
and um and it's on a region called the s g a
c c the the singular uh something cortex singular
interior cortex and the s g a c c is your courage
center And what they found is people can grow
the size of their courage center, they can increase
that SGACC just by making courageous choices.
So the repetition, like building muscle, reps
and reps and reps, if you do something that challenges
you a little bit today, you're gonna increase
that SGACC. If you do something tomorrow, it's
a little more challenging, you're gonna increase
it. If you keep... building and building and
building, and this is what happened to me, then
your SGACC is going to get stronger and it can
turn off your amygdala. So when your amygdala
tries to hijack, that SGACC can say, no, we're
safe. We're going to deal with this. We don't
have to be able to predict the future. We can
have some uncertainty. Yeah, amygdala hijack.
I learned that. I was in this and this course,
and they talked about the amygdala hijack. I
know about the amygdala, but hijacking, I was
like, how does that hijack? What's going on there?
Yeah, it's taken over the rest of your brain.
Yeah. It's hijacking. It's hijacking. In my assessment,
fear shows up faster than logic, right? And a
better way of saying that, Michael, is fear blocks
out logic. Fear blocks out logic. Yeah. Yeah.
Covers it up. And so for somebody who is listening
right now, you talk about the SGACC. Yeah. What
are some of the things that they can do to it
and start to encourage their courage and build
their courage so that the things that they want
to create for their lives that they're pursuing?
fear may show up, but how do they just build
the courage in order to continue to do that so
fear won't lock them into old patterns and old
identities? So I think knowing that you can reprogram
your brain, knowing we can put a better piece
of software than what we made 2 million years
ago to survive and to procreate, that's the only
thing the amygdala cares about is passing our
genes on to the next generation. if you know
that and you understand and are aware that we
can reprogram the mind then what you'll do is
you'll start to notice every choice you make
is either made out of opportunity or made out
of fear and you know i'm talking big choice if
your career or maybe what you're going to do
tonight or or who you're going to date it it
doesn't matter the only two ways are opportunity
or or fear and fear you can tell really is the
gateway to something interesting, because you're
uncertain with it. Our brain's a prediction engine,
right? We're trying to always predict the outcome
of every next thing. And when something's different,
it creates a surprise. A surprise creates what
neuroscientist named Karl Friston calls free
energy. And it's basically the root of all fear.
So if you can start to become aware of fear in
your decision making and you start to consciously
say, okay, I'm afraid to go to this party because
I might look foolish and I just broke up with
my partner and people are going to ask me and
I don't want to talk about that. If you go through
that logic and you say, okay, I'm going to do
it anyways, I'm going to face this fear and I'm
going to see what happens, then you build you
build that conscious resistance up to giving
in to the fear. So even little stuff like if
you don't like snakes, watching some YouTube
videos of guys catching snakes is like a great
thing to do, because it might freak you out at
first, but you know it's safe, you know you just
don't like it, and you can kind of... sit there
and look at it as a producer. You know, I know
you're you're a film background, but you can
you can say, OK, well, I'm going to look at Michael
sitting in this seat here watching this snake
video. And when you detach yourself, I often
advise people to do that. A lot of my speeches,
I'll have people get in a cold plunge, right?
Do an ice bath or whatever, just because that
instills fear in a lot of people. And I always
say, look at yourself from the edge of the bath
or wherever we are and pretend that you're producing
this movie. You're the director of the movie.
And tell me how you want that guy in the water
to behave. And that sort of detachment also helps
you get in touch with that SGACC, with that courage
center. Yeah, I don't have a I mean I could do
an ice bath, but I don't so I start with a cold
shower. That's why I do the high shower then
I turn to a cold shower So I'm like, oh, yeah,
but there's a there's a refreshment there, too
But I had to really train myself into you know,
taking cold showers Which is interesting, but
you talk about Benefits so all your listeners
if you're you know, one of the things people
don't ask me a ton about is like what would I
recommend for entrepreneurs and and it's taking
care of your health right because I I've seen
health stop more great companies than just about
anything else but cold showers and cold plunge
incredible for immune system testosterone fat
burning you know all that stuff so all your listeners
should be doing that yes I agree 100 % because
there's a big shift when I started doing that
for myself so But, you know, you talked about,
just to go back to fear a little bit, I don't
know if I fear them, but I hate snakes when you
talk about that. But I can, if I have to, you
know, be around them or watch them, I can do
that, do that. But I have a friend who I sense
like - Is this a friend in air quotes, Michael?
No, no, it's not me. Okay. Okay. No, she's a
she's a she and she's a friend and she's, she's
terrified, like, I think spiders or snakes, one
of the others. And then I think I sent her something
on Instagram. And it was supposed to be funny.
And she wrote back, Mike, don't ever say me like
that. It scares me. And so people still but they,
you know, even though it's like so far from them.
In their world, but they could steal. just get
that emotion and that feeling, that signal of
fear. What is that that keeps showing up for
them that there's no detachment there? Yeah,
and that's a big conscious choice. And I do this
when I work with entrepreneurs a lot. The big
conscious choice is whether or not you want to
address your fear. So for me, I believe all your
dreams are on the other side of fear. I think
everything that we want, everything that makes
us happy, everything that's fulfilled isn't necessarily
going to come easy to us. We've got to get over
the fear and the doubt and get to that beautiful
dream that we've been talking about. So your
friend, she has to be willing to build up her
courage. She's got to say, hey, Michael, listen,
I'm tired of being afraid at work every time
I have to give an update on my business or whatever,
and I'm tired of being afraid of snakes, and
I want to work on my courage. When someone creates
that awareness, then they'll start to see how
silly most of their fears are. 99 % of our fears
are just irrational. I call it a fear triangle.
We've got three areas of fear. One is instinctual,
which is just what your friend was talking about.
Snakes, sharks. Sharks is one of the most irrational
fears in the world. Do you know how many people
die every year from shark bites? When I lived
in Los Angeles, there were maybe one, but that
was out of, you know, maybe for like 13 years.
So, yeah. So it's like 12 a year and there's
millions of people in the water all over the
world. So the odds of getting killed by a shark
are so minuscule, but people still have that
fear because it's an instinctual fear, right?
It's bred into our DNA. We also have physical
fears and that's like flying. uh skydiving you
know um getting getting uh hit by a falling rock
or something like that anything physical we have
and then the last the the last uh tangent is
emotional fears and that's generally around fear
of being rejected from the tribe and uh you know
fear of abandonment and all these emotional things
and it's funny because You have to train all
three to get good at all three. So I've worked
with a bunch of Navy SEALs who are the bravest
guys in the world, right? And they're jumping
out of a plane in the middle of a hurricane,
pitch black at night with 200 pounds of gear
on them. And they don't bat an eyelash. They're
joking as they jump out the back. But a couple
of these guys I've worked with have been married
like three times, right? Because they haven't.
on that emotional fear and when things get rough
they go back to what they know which is fight
and then you know get out after the fight so
so the the three fears you have to work on you
have to have some consciousness that you want
to work on those three things and then once you
do it's that you know there's a bunch of different
ways of doing it but one is called exposure therapy
you you just start to gradually do a cognitive
behavioral therapy, which is which is just a
little bit more, a little bit more exposure,
getting, you know, upping the stakes a little
bit and your body adapts to it, your mind adapts
to it, your your fear center, your courage center,
all adapt to that little by little kind of, you
know, progressive steps. Yeah, I can attest to
that in the emotional part of it, like when you're
building a business or something and like the
world of, you know, the unknown or I don't know
what's You know what to do next. Yeah, what to
do next. As a post, they're just kind of stuck
in or not stuck, but just staying in that space
of I don't know what's what's out there. You
still make steps anyway to make that business
that dream the idea happen. Well, and that's
you know, that's what my new book is about. The
Founders Creed Founders Creed is. is about having
a creed that allows you to keep taking those
steps, right? Because there's something that
I call a belief gap. So if you're a founder,
you've got a view of where the world can be five
years from now, 10 years from now, right? And
that's contrary to everyone else on the other
side of this big canyon who look at the world
the way it is today. So you've got this whole
world besides you that sees the world as it is
today, and then you're over here with this dream,
this idea, this belief, and your job is to recruit
people internally, employees and internal supporters,
and recruit people externally, which is investors
and customers and journalists and that sort of
thing, to join you on that. on crossing that
belief gap. The way you do it is with conviction.
If you have this conviction, if you really believe
that you can change the world, you can leave
a dent in the world, you can do something, then
having the concept I introduced in the book is
called the Buddha Doctrine, B -O -O -D -A. And
it stems from an Air Force fighter pilot who
created something called the OODA loop. And OODA
loop is Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. But
to make this work in the startup world, to create
companies that can scale in hypergrowth, you
need that belief first. So you have to have the
B in front of the OODA loop to go through those
effectively. But once you do, those steps that
you're talking about and that process you're
talking about happens automatically. You're doing
the OODA loop. As soon as you believe in something,
you're gonna observe what the world looks like.
That's the second O. It's the first O. The second
O is orient yourself. So based on your upbringing,
your understanding of the industry, your schooling,
whatever, you're gonna orient yourself, kind
of filter out the data. Then you're gonna make
a decision. You decide and then you act. And
as soon as you act, you get more data and you
get data that your competitors don't have. So
you do it again. believe, you observe, you orient,
you decide, you act. You get more data back.
Boom. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again.
And the ones that win are the ones that get through
those cycles the fastest. As I was going to say,
that sounds like a good cycle to live through
over and over again because like you said, it
creates hyper growth. Yeah. Exactly. That's it.
So Buddha belief, the belief gap B, first O is
observe, second O is orient, D decide, A act.
Buddha. That's it. You got it. I said, and I
was, I was, I'm glad you went there. Um, at some
point I was going to get there, but you got there
faster, which is cool. Like the right thing to
do. It was, it was perfect. Um, because I wanted
to talk about like you, um, you know, you, you
have a, you had a Buddha kind of, uh, enlightenment,
I guess, for yourself. Um, you went from, you
said the wimpy. into this superhero mode. I mean,
you faced some wild things and I attested to
that because I did as well. And you had leukemia,
right? Yeah, yeah. And you said that you died
in a way, right? And then you came back different.
Explain that or share share what that gap was
for you. Yeah, that was, in retrospect, I've
said it's the best thing that ever happened to
me. I was living this really toxic lifestyle,
so 33 years old, I guess, and I was constantly
in fear. I was grew up in this really blue collar
Irish immigrant area. My dad's first generation
Irish immigrant. No one in my family went to
college. I was the first person to go to college,
but I was afraid of everything. I had an abusive
grandfather. If you showed any fear, you were
a complete wimp. Quit being a pussy. Get back
to work. Don't complain. If you did or you felt
anything or I felt anything, I felt shame. I
had all this shame and all this fear flying the
biggest one. I never did any spring break trips.
I never did anything that other people did because
I just make some excuse so I wouldn't have to
fly. I got decent as an athlete in college. I
joined the rowing team at the University of New
Hampshire. Then when I graduated, I went to work
for a bunch of entrepreneurs. I thought, wow,
I was getting really good at rowing. I wonder
if I could get really good because if I got good
at that and I became a great athlete, that'll
bring me courage. That'll fix the problem. I
spent five years training for the Olympics and
I finished second in the Olympic trials, 10th
in the world, raced the World Cup for three years.
I had badass courage on the water. As soon as
I got off the water, back to normal. To race
the World Cup, I had to drink. eight or ten beers
to get on a plane. So after the Olympics, I went
back to business school because you get a dumb
jock entry. Every top 10 business school has
a Navy SEAL entry and a dumb jock entry. So I
got the dumb jock entry into University of Virginia
Darden. Really? I didn't know that. Yeah, of
course. Got to tick those boxes. And so I thought
if I make a lot of money, then I'll have courage.
That'll get me the courage I'm looking for. So
I set a goal, 40 by 40. I wanna make myself a
net worth of 40 million bucks by the time I'm
40 years old. Screw everything else, that's all
I care about. And so I was doing that, made that
decision, was doing that from the point of fear.
And it was fear that was driving all those decisions.
And I didn't know it, but my amygdala was constantly
on. And I was producing this fear cocktail 24
seven like I could I could feel the cortisol
which is a stress hormone just like sort of seeping
out of my body and I didn't know what it was
or and I didn't know how to deal with it so I
drank right so you know five o 'clock every day
I I had a little dorm room fridge next to my
desk you know I didn't believe in offices so
so we had you know just deaths in the first company
I started and um guys would come over like five
or six o 'clock would start having a couple of
beers. Then I'd go to some venture capital event
and have three or four more beers and then go
out with friends afterwards and catch up three
or four more beers. get home at like one o 'clock
after eight or nine beers, and then feel guilty
about it, that whole Irish Catholic thing. I
feel like I had to sweat it out in the morning,
right? So I'd wake up at five, go to bed at one,
wake up at five, hit the gym, and then spend
the rest of the day drinking Diet Cokes to keep
me awake and keep me moving in the startup world.
And it didn't take long before that lifestyle.
which is like super toxic, caught up with me.
And I woke up one morning and I had this really
bad pain in my wrist. I was going to do back
and I said, okay, well, I'll just do cardio and
see what happens. And then the next morning I
woke up and the whole arm was red and swollen
and really angry looking. And I said, well, I
should go to the doctor, but I didn't go to the
doctor, of course. You know why. I was afraid,
right? Right, yeah. Exactly. And so third day,
I could barely get out of bed. I go to the doctor
and he said, oh, you know, it looks like a staph
infection. I'll give you some antibiotics. Take
a blood test. The nurse will call you back in
the afternoon. And the nurse didn't call me back.
The doctor did. And that was a phone call that
changed my life. He said, he said, we don't know
what it is, but you've got no white blood cells.
You have no immune system. Come on in. We're
going to check you in. You can do some tests.
They did some tests. They couldn't figure it
out. They said, OK, we don't know what's going
on, but this is really aggressive and we want
to get you to Johns Hopkins. Best hospital in
the world. Two hours north of here and check
you in. So my daughter is one year old at this
point. My wife and I went up to Hopkins and.
The doctor said, look, we've got a plan now.
We don't exactly know what's going on, but we've
got a plan and we're gonna do that. But if it
doesn't work, you've probably got two weeks left
to live. So you should maybe get your affairs
in order and say your goodbyes. And my wife was
sitting there listening to this. She's six months
pregnant. Right? My one -year -old daughter's
at her grandparents' house. And I'm here in all
this. And the only thing I felt at that point,
Michael, was this huge sense of regret. Right?
I thought to myself, I missed out on life because
I was afraid of dying. And now I'm going to die.
And I missed out on everything. And it was like
the worst feeling you could possibly imagine.
Not to spoil the ending but I lived And I said
if I get out of here I'm gonna get over this
fear of flying yeah, and so I got out it took
a while for my immune system to build back up
so I couldn't couldn't leave my house for a while
and And then when I could I went to Leesburg
Airport and I said I want to take flying lessons
And I'm going to get my private pilot's license.
And so the first lesson, I think I peed like
five times before we even got in the plane, right?
Hold on one more time. I was so scared. The second
time, we went out over the Blue Ridge Mountains
and we hit some turbulence in this little two
-seater plane. And I actually think I pooped
myself. I mean, not a lot, just a little bit.
The really strange thing is after maybe the eighth
or ninth flight, I fell in love with flying.
It became the most fulfilling, challenging, passionate
thing that I've ever done. And I got my private
license, I got my instrument rating, I got my
commercial rating, I got my seaplane rating,
I got my tail dragger, and now I fly aerobatics,
right? I fly a stunt plane for fun. And even
just talking about that, you know before this
incident would have just had me in the corner
you know like your friend in in the fetal position
in the corner crying and uh but now it's now
now i fly anything with a wing and uh it's it's
it's like so much fun and such a great joy for
me that's where you know that's why i say all
of your dreams are on the other side of fear
so there's the there's the genesis of that little
statement of mine you know it's so great like
so as i'm hearing this it's like it took the
fear of dying in order to live kind of thing
and i just i want to say that as a you know as
we're listening to that story and anyone has
listened to the story watching spark guys um
there is something in your story that that other
people can relate to in their life it may not
be that you're about to die of cancer or anything
like that but there could be something that's
showing up for somebody in their life and saying
you know what that's me you know like why am
i afraid to live the dream that I'm creating
for myself. Why am I afraid to, you know, stop
living in the old patterns of, you know, the
old identity that won't allow me to live this
future fulfilled, you know, that I can? And what
you live through and what you get to experience
now is like, I don't know, a thousand times better
than the way you were living. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.
Crazy good. Yeah. My life is amazing. Yeah. I
mean, I've done a little research on you. You
got a couple of homes here in the States, one
over in Europe. And you started how many companies?
Five technology companies with three exits. With
three exits. And would you say that that's something
that you would have been able to do had you not
shifted who you were being? No. I think I might
have been able to, but there's such a different
life experience when you're doing something out
of fear versus doing something out of love and
joy and opportunity. Because I think of Server
Vault, which was my first company, it was really
one of the first cloud -hosting companies. cloud
hosting ever with security enough for insurance
companies and the government, that sort of thing.
And I started Server Vault, raised about $30
million in venture capital and debt. And I made
every mistake a CEO could make. Because I was
afraid all the time, I was always in this fight
mode. Everything was a battle, no matter what.
Someone's coming in, they want a partnership.
They really want to try and screw me. I'm not
going to let that happen. gloves on let's let's
go and so it was all fear -based behavior for
me at that point and and it cost me right like
the we ended up having to restructure the company
we merged with another company and eventually
we sold it for 350 million to qts but the the
path getting there um was partially what led
to me getting sick and it was also what what
just made me angry and there wasn't enough and
you know everyone was trying to screw me so i
don't you know Would I have been as successful?
Not a chance. Not even close when I look at how
I went from, because I had this imposter syndrome,
which strangely enough, all those CEOs that I've
spoken with, I'm in this organization called
YPO, Young Presidents Organization, and I've
done. maybe 40 or 50 talks for them each with
a couple hundred CEOs from all over the world,
you know, really big companies to, you know,
10, $20 million companies. And nearly every one
of those CEOs that I've spoken with has imposter
syndrome. at one point or another in their career.
And your listeners, I guarantee you same thing,
90 % of them will have imposter syndrome. But
if you know that even the top CEOs from huge
companies have that same thing from time to time.
It's a natural fear that you can either flip
out about when you're on stage and you're wondering,
why am I up here? I'm no expert. I'm not the
best guy in this to having to give a report on
sales figures or whatever. But I think that imposter
syndrome, if you're the way I was originally,
I would fight it. And so in my first company,
I'd wear like $5 ,000 custom suits, you know,
this is running like a 10 person .com company
to start because I wanted to look the part of
strong and courageous and great leader. And then
after I got sick, it was my second company, this
first one out of MIT called Odin. After I got
sick, you know, I showed up at work in t -shirt
and jeans and I said, Hey, we might be screwed
because I've been in the hospital for a couple
of months and we lost this client, we lost our
COO. I don't know if we're gonna make it past
this quarter. And people were like, well, what
happened to the rah -rah, I've got everything
under control, general guy, where'd he go and
who the hell is this guy? And so I think that
opened up a lot of opportunity for me. to be
very authentic and very vulnerable. I think those
are two things that a good leader, particularly
a servant leader, needs to have to build up great
companies. Yeah. There's a couple of points here.
I'll see if we can try to get to it. But the
imposter syndrome. Listen, anybody that's listening,
I've heard this over and over again. People that
we look at, you know, as super successful, I
can name, you know, a whole bunch of them. You
know, everybody has gone through that space of
being or feeling like an imposter because there's
a level that's higher than what they've experienced
and they were still doing it anyway, right? And
so... just as people are listening, um, I would
consider just from your story and what you've
been doing, you are a successful person and you've
experienced that, um, imposter syndrome, right?
So speak to those, the guys who, who are the
guys and the gals that, you know, they're getting
to that, whatever level it is for them. And they're
like, you know, I don't know if I belong here
and just, can you speak to that, that person?
Um, yeah, I think, you know, I mean, um, I think
having that belief and that conviction, and that's
why that B is the front part, is that that eliminates
the doubt, right? Your belief is what's going
to fight that doubt. And then when that doubt
comes in, that's when you have that imposter
syndrome. And one of my favorite stories, and
you'll appreciate this, is Laurence Olivier,
one of the best actors of all time. until, I
can't remember, I think he's 70 years old or
something like that. He was acting on stage until
he was in his 70s. And before every performance,
he'd throw up. Yeah, he just, so his whole career
for like his 40 -year career or 50 -year career,
whatever it was, if he was going to perform on
stage to a live audience, he'd throw up. And
he knew it. He knew that was his body's response.
He said, okay, let's take this step, get it over
with and then get to work. And he did. And it
just amazed me to think that someone so talented,
so incredibly experienced and well proven had
this as just part of his routine. He said, look,
I know my body's going to react to this way.
I know it's bullshit. I'm just going to go through
it and then get on stage and kill it. So he did.
And I think, you know, my friend Sami Inken and
started two unicorns. One was called Trulia,
if you remember Trulia. Yeah, yeah, real estate.
They got bought by Zillow. OK, yeah, for three
and a half billion. I didn't see him anymore.
OK, I see why. Yeah, so and then the the one
he started a few years ago is called Virta health
and he's he's curing diabetes, which is really
cool. And I'm an angel investor in Virta. So
so they had a two and a half billion dollar valuation
their last fundraising. So so he's he's really
crushed it. And he said to me, you know, we were
talking one time on a bike ride. He said he said,
look, Everyone knows being an entrepreneur is
like chewing glass for breakfast every morning.
So if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you
might as well shoot for something really big.
And he said, there's not a lot of difference
between creating a $10 million company and creating
a $100 million company. So you might as well
shoot for the $100 million company. And if you
look, if every one of your listeners who's out
there thinking, well, maybe I should start a
company or maybe I could get my company to really
scale and get hyper growth, if you look at the
profile of people who've done it, there's somebody
just like you who's done it successfully, right?
There's no reason any one of your listeners couldn't
create the next unicorn. And that's a critical
thing to keep in mind because people from all
backgrounds, rich backgrounds, poor backgrounds,
Ivy League education, high school education,
it doesn't matter. There's examples of success.
And that's still, no matter what you think about
the United States, I've lived all over the world
and I've lived in Europe off and on for 15 years.
America, the United States is still the greatest
place of opportunity, assuming you can get in.
Exactly now. Because anyone can build anything
and do anything here, and I love that about this
country. Yeah. Someone try to connect these two
with a belief gap in what I'm about to say. Connecting
to what you said. regardless of what you watch
on the news and what you hear all the time. Maybe
news has something to do with, you know, bringing
fear based ideas into people's world. But I still
find if I just sit back and just look at everything
and what's happening in the United States, there's
still so much opportunity to create like from
nothing, you know. I hear stories about people
who, you know, were homeless and they're in their
cars and they help, they start building like
a click funnel or something like that. And they
start to, you know, build their business, you
know, or, and they're not, you know, they're
no longer homeless or whatever the story may
be. You can start from ground negative 20 and
still build yourself up. And I know that a poverty
mindset kind of probably sets. in there somewhere.
But if you go and connect with what you're talking
about here with your with the Buddha, the Buddha
loop, doctrine, belief gap, that belief gap in
who you know you are, who you can be really can
play a significant part in your life and switching
like who you think you are to who you know you
could become. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And go ahead.
Okay, so the thing that that brings up for me
is that if people want to change and they want
to become a better version of themselves, first
of all, 100 % have to believe that they can do
that. They have to believe that they can make
change or they can do great things. Once you
have that belief, and that's a great thing to
tell your kids by the way, tell your kids if
you work hard, you can be anything you want to
be. And don't ever tell them they're smart. Don't
ever tell them they're a really good athlete
because that creates a fixed mindset. Then they
think, oh, I'm smart. I shouldn't fail a test.
I'm going to cheat. so I don't fail, right? So
you want them to have this growth mindset where
you say, if you work hard, you're going to be
a great athlete. Oh, you got an A on a test?
It's because you studied hard, right? So you
reinforce that. But if you have that belief and
the courage, you can use the Buddha doctrine
personally as well. You can use it on yourself.
If you say, I've got this belief that I want
to create something great, and then your observation
is you're going to see the whole world. You're
going to see whatever it is, the apps you want,
the friends you hang out with, the way your family
treats you. You'll see all this stuff. But the
big challenge is the second O in the Buddha loop,
and that's the orientation. And this changes
everything. This is like the gravitational center
of the Buddha loop is the orientation. Because
what happens is we make 80 % of our decisions
every day subconsciously. before you turn the
key to the car or turn on the radio station,
your subconscious mind's already made that decision
and you're just gonna act out on it for them.
Our subconscious mind is largely built by other
people. So we don't choose where we're born,
we don't choose the color of our skin, we don't
choose the language we speak, we don't choose
the number of brothers and sisters we have, we
don't choose if we're rich or we're poor, but
all of those things go into our subconscious
as creating our tribe this is what our tribe
looks like anything outside of that tribe right
i've got white skin you got black skin you're
outside the tribe okay yeah you know i'm not
going to talk to you i've got i've got you know
uh poor um you know homeless person for an uncle
and you guys are all living in in these beautiful
mansions right i'm not going to you're not part
of my tribe so anything that goes against that
inherently, from a neurological perspective,
is wired for us to make decisions about is this
person someone I want to mate with? Or is this
person someone I want to kill? And that's the
our body, our brain has this thing called valence,
where we make those decisions, split second decisions.
And when we go through the orientation phase,
if we really want to change ourselves, then we
have to replace judgment with curiosity. And
this is really tough for a lot of people. And
I have to think consciously about doing it. And
I've been doing this for 10 years. And I'll give
you an example. If you walk into a Starbucks,
so let's say I walk into a Starbucks, very traditional
Irish Catholic background and very... conservative
i walk into a starbucks and i look i see some
dude who looks like he's a victim of a drive
-by piercing right like he's got he's got all
this stuff yeah exactly and then you know my
initial reaction in my tribe is like oh what
a freak like what's wrong with that dude if you
can catch yourself in that moment and you can
say okay wait a minute i'm being judgmental what
can I find with that guy that's really interesting
or really cool or that I admire? Well, one, he's
got a great threshold for pain. He must be able
to really suck it up and take it. Two, he doesn't
care what other people think. He's got enough
self -respect and self -confidence, and that's
pretty cool. So if you do that, if you stop,
first of all, you incorporate both hemispheres
of your brain, because normally when we make
those judgment decisions, we only do we only
use half the brain because it's much more efficient
energetically. So we incorporate both sides of
the brain. And so we think clearer and then we
impact our future past, which I know sounds a
little trippy. But in the future, when you walk
into the Starbucks, the next next time you're
going to rely on your past. to guide your decisions.
If you put that into your subconscious memory
that this guy's really cool, he made a great
latte, it was a good experience, you come back
in, you're like, where's my dude? I want to order
with him. It totally changes the person you are.
As you're going through the Buddha loop, that
orientation is all about changing your perspective
and getting as many different perspectives on
what you observe is possible. And the easiest
way is to catch yourself making judgments and
replace it with curiosity. I love that. And that
brings me to what I've been listening to or hearing
is that, you know, we're not really in control
of our first thought if this kind of comes, right?
But if we just kind of say, okay, I get that
thought, and that thought is not necessarily
who I am or what I want to really think. Let
me go to my second thought and then I can really
reassess what that was for me. That's exactly
it. Yeah, it's the same thing, right? It's you
bringing your consciousness in what's called
agency, right? You've got the ability to take
agency over your life, your business, your leadership,
whatever it is. If people are aligned with that
in your business, you can do great things, right?
Because that's when you go from managing a business
to leading a movement. Leading a movement. That's
big. Yeah. Yeah, that is big. That's living like
a great idea. Just a great idea. Yeah. Wow. Okay.
I'm living at that right there. So, I mean, I
was looking at your new book that's coming out,
The Founder's Creed, which was talking about
the Buddha doctrine, right? And you said that
in the world of, and I'm going to just kind of
just go over this a little bit. The problem you
state is the market is buying what you're building,
but every day is a grind. You need more than
the OODA loop, which is the Observe, Orient,
Decide, Act, you need the missing piece that
separates a billion -dollar exit from quiet failures.
Right? So even if it's like, if someone's listening,
it's not like they don't get the concept of a
billion -dollar exit, just kind of go with it,
right? Because it could be anything, right? But
then you said the solution is belief. We talked
about it earlier. The B comes before the OODA.
The Buddha doctrine shows you how to close the
belief gap and transform your company into unstoppable
hyper growth force. And we've talked about that.
But just in an everyday practical, I know you
talk about the billion dollar exit, we kind of
talked about it, but in a practical way, if somebody
was to walk away from that doctrine right now,
how can they? Apply it to their everyday life
Sure, they're they're everyday personal life
or their business life Well, let's can we do
it in both ways like I mean because you know
you have people in you know in different respects
Yeah, yeah Okay. So for for business, that's
the the easy one they when you you've got across
this belief gap right when when you you've got
this vision of the world and how you can make
a dent in it and then everyone else is over here
on the other side then what your what your entire
goal is is to convince other people to do that
but other people are going to have um they're
not going to believe you right they won't have
the belief they'll have doubts so your goal every
day is to metabolize that doubt and turn it into
conviction. And if you do that, the way you do
that is to show progress. And this is why a lot
of companies get stalled trying to create 100
% solution. They'll get you a 70 % solution in,
let's say, a month on a new app or whatever.
Then they'll take another month, six weeks, to
get that other 30 % that they've got left. It's
because their decision -making speed has slowed
down, and they're not metabolizing that doubt.
They're creating more doubt the longer they wait.
So when you've got a 70 % solution, let it go.
Release it, let people experience it, because
you're going to get data back. This is where
the loops start to come in. So if you've got
people believing, OK, we can get to something
that we can manage that has a certain impact,
a certain amount of feedback, and then we can
change it and we can do it again. We get to that
70 % solution, we'll let it go again. Instead
of trying to build the perfect results, instead
of trying to be 100%. And I've had a bunch of
tech guys working for me, a few CTOs who said,
no, no, no, we can't deliver it. It's not ready
yet. It's not perfect. And I said, let's get
it out there and find out what our customers
think and get as much feedback as we can. Because
at the end of the day, and this is personal as
well as business, there's no such thing as good
news or bad news. There's no such thing as either
one. It's just data, right? It's all data that's
gonna help you decide what you do next. And one
of the things that in imposter syndrome causes
this all the time is people get that amygdala
reaction, that hijack, and they freeze. Okay,
so I'm working with a company in, well, they're
in five countries now in Europe, but they were
looking at the German market, and I talk about
this in the book, and they were trying to get
into the German market for their clinics. They
have these specialized clinics for removing varicose
veins, and they had a huge opportunity in Germany.
Their goal is to build up to 400 clinics in two
years, and the CEO couldn't make a decision.
He kept asking, let's get another report. Let's
talk to another private equity firm. Let's see
what the analysts say about this. And he froze.
That was because he knew that if he bought this
hospital, there was a hospital he had to buy
to go with it. He didn't know how to run hospitals.
He knew how to run these little vein clinics,
but not a hospital. So he was scared. And that
stopped the loop instead of making a decision,
getting data back, and using data. over opinions,
right? That's the way it should always be. That
is, I don't know if you get how powerful that
is, but I'm sure you do. But that right that
little second right there is a very powerful
segment. Because if if you're listening to that,
as I'm listening to it, as I'm, you know, building
the media company, like that is so ideal, especially
for the project that we're doing right now. And
It's like, don't stop the progress that could
really bring information or data that can make
the 70 % to like a 90%, 100%, whatever. And one
of the greatest things that you just said is
you said there's no good news, bad news. It's
just data. One I used to tell myself, Matt, no.
I used to be I was like, I was never wanted to
say or share anything to anybody. I would keep
it to myself. Oh, it's a great idea. But I keep
it to myself, right? It's only a great idea over
here. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is, if you know,
I wanted to do that, because I didn't want people
to say no, or you suck or whatever it is. And
emotional figure. Yeah. That's my that's my thing
that I'm working on. But the thing when I heard
this Little phrase is no is nothing but data
Yeah, that freed me up man and freed me up to
be like, you know what? I'm even though whatever
doing is you know, it's messy It's it's not great
100 % yet and maybe 50 % 40 % whatever just put
it out there and be okay to Look crazy or fail
or whatever because that is data and and you
know, I think there's There's a lot of people
who have those emotional fears who are afraid
to step out there and put it out there for fear
of rejection from the tribe, right? It's one
of the oldest fears that we have. So good for
you for stepping up there and recognizing that.
Well, it's in these kinds of conversations that
I get to really look at the mirror. Because when
you when people like you like I mentioned before
we got on like We have some like in our in our
short, you know lifetime. We've had like extraordinary
guests That don't they bring the real stuff.
You know what I mean? They bring the raw great
diamond platinum kind of information and I get
to listen to this thing like I don't know how
many times before it gets to publish and I get
to like get to look at myself what's good what
shows up as you know what's missing and I could
you know put in place that could make things
move further um in my life and this conversation
is one of those conversations and you know while
I'm still trying to host and lead the conversation
and then getting all these trying to think about
how it yeah affects you yeah yeah it's a task
but you know um so like grateful that I get to
cross with or get to the intersection of people
like yourself that I probably normally would
not be able to if we didn't have the podcast.
So I want to just say thank you because your
information is, like I said, diamond. It's platinum.
It's better than gold. You know what I mean?
And so just everything that you shared today.
Like Bitcoin. Like what? Like Bitcoin. Big. Better
than diamonds and gold. Better, better. And you
know, you don't normally go just an hour. So
I just wanted to respect that. But you know what
you have to say and who you've been and the things
that you've gone through to get to the other
side to be able to share. what you're sharing
like guru for sure you know I mean so you know
that that um that moniker really belongs to you
so thank you for being able to share this information
um and everything that you have and um you know
is there anything that you want to say before
you know I'll get to the the other last segment
of this I'd say Michael um first of all my my
purpose in life you know the purpose of writing
Fear is Fuel my first book was to help thousands
of people, you know, face their fears and learn
how to use it as something productive and not
cripple himself. The Founders Creed, my goal
is to help create a thousand unicorns. So I'm
sure there's gonna be a couple of people listening
to your podcast who are gonna be on my list.
So I tell them, you know, make sure you contact
me and let me know when you're a unicorn. And
I think they're simple, but not easy tools. which
is what I lay out in the book that you can use
to affect your business and affect your life
and the the key thing is you know that being
curious and having that curiosity and and that's
what drives I think your ability to get over
obstacles or or to learn from obstacles to get
to metabolize that doubt. And then I think in
a messy situation like your life or like a business,
people are really good in general at putting
out fires. We've got an emergency. I can see
where the end is. I can go fix that. I can do
something. A lot of entrepreneurs are really
good in chaos, those moments of chaos. If you
want to succeed in your life and in your business,
you've got to learn how to turn that chaos into
cadence. You keep that speed, you keep that flywheel
moving even when there's no fire to put out.
Right? You keep pushing ahead and you keep driving.
And that's what creates, when you create that
cadence, you create momentum. When you create
momentum, all those people who are crossing that
belief gap with you now really believe, and you've
got momentum going that that's a movement. I
love that. I love that. Right? Turning that chaos
into cadence and creating movement as opposed
to squiggly lines. That's how I see it in my
mind's eye. Patrick, Fierce Fuel, The Surprising
Power to Help You Find Purpose, Passion, and
Performance. That's on Amazon. You can get it
on Amazon, or we'll have the link to it. Audio
book is fun too. I did that during COVID with
all the people I wrote about in each chapter
come in for a little mini podcast at the end
of each chapter. It's pretty cool. Yeah, so the
people don't read. There's the audio book. And
then you have The Founder's Creed, which is is
new, and you're offering the first chapter for
people to read in the pre -order. Go to the site.
You can download the first chapter. And as a
pre -order, so it releases March 17th, St. Patrick's
Day. St. Patrick's Day, yeah. And there's a 25
% discount for pre -orders. There's the founderscreed
.com. Well, how about all those links in the
show notes and everything? And this was really
meant this conversation was number one meant
for people to really call out the fear and then
and really be just be the awareness have it as
an awareness of what that is for them and then
not, you know, have them be stopped by it. Yeah,
and then it also turn the other side and get
on the other side of that. And through that you
can work on building and encouraging your courage
and becoming, you know, the person that you see
yourself becoming in the world. And you can get
that, you know, if you need some more support,
you know, connect with connect here with Patrick
and get the books and things like that. And I
know you have Instagram or you have Instagram.
Yeah. Instagram, the Fear Guru, LinkedIn, the
Fear Guru. So yeah, if your listeners want to
hit me up with anything, you know, questions
or stories or whatever, love to hear from people,
particularly LinkedIn is probably spend more
time there. Nice. Okay. LinkedIn, Instagram,
the Fear Guru. Oh, I wanted to say to this, I
think we have one of my, I have a few. uh animals
that I love um and I was you know not snakes
though not snakes not even close um but cheetahs
um I've always because I ran track and field
I was in you know the sprinter um I've always
been attracted to cheetahs well it's dogs cheetahs
are lions and um um uh we call them um uh I was
about to say falcons but um Oh my god, I can't.
Eagles? Eagles? Falcon? No. I can't even think
of the name of it right now. Phoenix. The Phoenixes.
Even though I know Phoenixes are, they're not
real. Those are just my, the animals that I really,
you know, I love anyway. But I saw that you love,
you love cheetahs as well. And I think I saw
you with one. I got to hang out with a couple
of them actually in South Africa. Yeah, it was
super cool. I did a speaking gig and then went
and there's a, it's like a reserve veterinarian
center where they do, they help heal lions and
they're doing genetic research on why. So hyenas
apparently never get cancer and they're trying
to figure out if they can help. other animals
like lions and buffalo and stuff like that get
the same thing. It's like really interesting
stuff but you can go there and you can stay there
for like three or four days and volunteer. And,
you know, maybe it's 500 bucks a night to go
as a tourist and like a hundred bucks a night
if you go and you volunteer and help. And so,
uh, so I got to chill out with, with those cheetahs
and I was, it was like, it was crazy because
they were so docile, you know, and I'm in the
picture, you probably saw him petting the cheetah
on the head. And I'm thinking, man, like a flash
of a second, this sucker could just. take his
claws and rip my throat out. And you know, so
I had definitely had some fear going in there.
Wow. But you know, you had the fear but you faced
it and you went in. Yeah, yeah, it was awesome.
Great photo opportunity. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Oh, man. So this is just shooting the stuff.
Um, so anyway, thank you for being here. Like,
you mean you're living your you're living your
your truth. And I love that. And so just thank
you. And You know, for all the watchers and listeners,
as we always say, let's make thriving our new
normal and we'll see you on the next podcast.
Take care. Michael, thank you so much. Thank
everyone else for listening as well. Absolutely.
Absolutely. See you next week.