You put a baseball in the center of a stadium,
that's what the little ego identity, right? The
little sense of separate personality. There's
this Christian, that's Michael. That's what that
ego part of us is. Who we are is actually the
stadium. And we've allowed this tiny, tiny, tiny
part of who we are to think that it is all who
we are and to make all these important consequential
choices from a tiny and always limited and always
fear -based perspective. The only way you're
gonna find fulfillment, right? Well, I think
anybody who's stuck out this conversation this
long, has lived long enough to know that there
isn't anybody out there who's gonna make us happy.
In so many parts of the world, and how many things
we are so blessed to have here in the US that
we take for granted, that I think it would be
great for all of us to be aware so we can be
grateful, even for the little things. I agree.
I know self -hatred. My entire adolescence was
one long depression. Like, you know, figure out
this kid, you know, knowing he was gay, who thought
he wanted to be a priest, who wanted to serve
God, as I understood it then. and being told
by by that religion in which I was raised that
I was an abomination that I was gonna burn in
hell for eternity so you know suicidal fantasies
and all that what's up fam before we get into
this conversation let me say this look I know
it's a thing right but if what we do here on
this channel speaks to you if it lifts you centers
you or helps you see your life a little clearer
I invite you to like the video and subscribe
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So hit the like, subscribe, let's breathe in,
get present. step into the conversation. Mr.
Christian, I want to welcome you to the Tharavu
journey. We talked a little bit, but again, how
are you doing? Thank you, Michael. I'm doing
pretty well. And I'm really happy to be here
with you and looking forward to our conversation.
How are you doing? I'm doing I'm doing well.
And I'm looking forward to our conversation too,
because you you talk about some powerful things.
Transformation and and things along. along those
lines in that world. And what I want to do, I
just kind of want to go back before we get here,
because I found your beginning information and
your story very interesting. And so you were
born in Havana, Cuba, and you and your parents
fled communism. And I wanted to know, do you
remember that? And if you do, like how? How was
that for you? Yeah, I remember when we left Cuba,
I was 10. So I lived my first 10 years of life
in a communist country. And I mean, yeah, there's
so much to say about that. There's so many things
we take for granted here in the US. I mean, not
to mention the big things like freedom and being
able to do what you choose to do and study what
you choose to study and make your own way in
life, practice whatever religious or spiritual
beliefs you choose to practice. But here's an
example from a thing that's a simple thing, but
it tells a lot. What's chewing gum to us here
in the US or in developed countries? It's nothing.
We stick a gum in our mouth and we spit it out
without even having a second thought about it.
We had a better than most in Cuba because my
parents had several friends who worked for foreign
embassies. So few times a year that we get, you
know, treats like chewing gum. Remember the little
chicklets packs? We used to get a couple of those
and split it between the kids. I'm one of, you
know, one of many kids. Um, and we chew that
piece of gum. At the end of the day, we'd get
a glass of water, you know, with a little bit
of water, put toothpaste in it and stick our
gum in there. So it'd be minty the next day and
keep it going for two, three weeks until my mom
found it. and threw it out, so we'd have to hide
it. But it just goes to show how it is in so
many parts of the world and how many things we
are so blessed to have here in the US that we
take for granted that I think it would be great
for all of us to be aware so we can be grateful
even for the little things. I agree. Well, wait
a minute. So I want to get the essence of this.
You didn't get gum because why? Because it wasn't
available. It was not to be had. And the people,
the friends that you had, that your parents had,
they would bring you the gum, and then you'll
be able to enjoy the simple things in life. Bubble
gum, or chicklets, or whatever. And in that regime,
and those type of countries, you have like, you're
allotted, you have this little book, and you're
allotted so many loaves of bread or so many gallons
of milk. According to how many people in the
family, but most of the time you go to the store
and the stores are bare. There's nothing So no
matter what how much you're allotted you there's
not the stuff It's not like like here where you
go to though you go to the grocery store and
it's I remember the first time I went through
a grocery store in Spain because we left through
Spain first It was just overwhelming the number
of choices Even you know toothpaste shampoo like
it's like an overwhelming number of choices Do
you think that just growing up in those years,
those formative years, did that give you some
kind of mindset in life? Yeah. I mean, that,
you know, appreciating more the little things
and not taking things for granted. The other
thing for which I'm really grateful is that,
you know, we had a TV, but there was nothing
worth watching. It's like literally old black
and white movies, American movies, and government
propaganda. So we grew up reading and I'm really
grateful for that. You know, I developed a lifelong
love affair with words and with books because
of that. And it's I think that deepened and expanded
the way that I that I look at the human experience.
And also we had to invent. our own games like
you know there were no toys or very few toys
to be had so we had to be creative and we spent
a lot of time playing outside and inventing our
pastimes and that I think is like when I see
my my nieces and nephews you know whether whether
head stuck in a phone or or tv screen and like
it's it saddens me yeah you know when you were
saying that I was remembering like in my childhood
um 80s you know growing up, like we would make
up games and play games and we're all outside
during the snow for Michigan. And, you know,
that was just, these are moments that late like
now in these years that I think about. And it
also helped me create, you know, my creativity.
And when I look at, you know, my nephews and
nieces, and they're like in the other room now
just playing video games like go outside and
get out. You know what I mean? Exactly. We used
to put on shows and plays and perform. Yeah.
All the fun things. And it's different now. But
I try to encourage them to, you know, go outside,
play football, do whatever you want to do, just
get out, you know, and get out of the TikToks
and all that good stuff. But it has its place,
but not all the time, right? Yeah, so it has
its place. But you know, but it's interesting,
because the technology has has allowed us to
interconnect in some ways globally. But at what
level? Right? In some ways, we feel more isolated
and alone than than ever. Yeah, because we're
all in our unique little worlds, you know, with
watching our tech talks or Instagram or we're
just following texting people. So it's it's a
mixed blessing that makes blessing. Yeah, I totally
I totally agree. So when I mean, coming from
that world traveling, you said through Spain,
which is a beautiful country. And then in up
here, like what was the the the mindset when
you got to America? Once you had all the the
bounty and the freedoms and as much as you wanted
to get. Well, you know, that was a shock. For
one thing, you know, I didn't speak a word of
English. And when we first landed, we went to
a small town in rural Georgia, in the middle
of Georgia, that was famous for a couple of things,
one of which was it had one of the three largest
psychiatric hospitals in the world, and my dad
was a psychiatrist. But as you can imagine, in
those days that I don't know now, but that they
don't they didn't take very kindly to foreigners.
And they're very, very clear racial divisions.
And yes, I don't have very fond memories. As
soon as we could get out of there, we went back
to Miami, where there was much more of at least
openness to Latino Spanish speaking communities.
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's I can imagine that's just
being tough, you know, coming from a different.
you know, just world basically entering this
world and then having to deal with, you know,
being free, but then also dealing with, you know,
those psychological things that, you know, that
you have to deal with during that time. But you
began to Oh, go ahead. No, no, no, I was just
saying yes, it was it was not not easy at all.
Yeah. So you began on this journey. You're here.
You talked about your your late 20s. things were
happening for you. Can you just talk about that
world for a minute? Yeah, by the end of my 20s,
I was pretty, you know, I was doing pretty well
for myself. I was, I was working in community
relations for a psychiatric and addictions hospital.
Had a nice kind of cushy job. Um, you know, I
got to wine and dine potential referral sources
for the hospital. Um, and I had developed Enough
of a network that I didn't have to do to work
very hard for that And yet it seemed to me that
the more that I that I had, you know I was sought
after socially sought after professionally and
yet the more that I had the more that it felt
like there's something missing there has to be
more to life and That started a process of me
turning inward And while I had struggled with
the religion in which I was raised, which was
Catholicism, because it was so strict and dogmatic
and didn't have room for me, I started looking
eastward. So I started looking at Buddhism and
Hinduism and Taoism and some of those indigenous
traditions. And pretty soon, you know, I quit
my job and sold my condo and gave away most of
my belongings and went off on a spiritual journey
and never looked back. That was the last job
that I ever had that I worked for somebody else,
you know, other than working for myself. You
talked about you had all these things on the
outside, but you were unfulfilled and you made
a shift. Was there like a moment that said, you
know what, this is just enough and I need to
figure out what's going on with me on the inside?
Well, you know, I think it connects to I think
it was an accumulation of things and a build
up that happened. But I love the concept that
you teach in practice, which is thriving. I wasn't
thriving. I was living and I had pretty comfy
and in some ways very enviable life, but I didn't
feel like I was thriving. Like many of us, I
was kind of selling out. for that illusion of
security of a biweekly paycheck. But what happened,
too, is that around that time is when the insurance
companies started tightening the screws. So I
started to see practices taken on at the hospital
in which I worked. Well, you know, like people
being put inpatient and their benefits utilized
just because they had the benefits when they
might have been OK doing outpatient service.
So everything became much more money and bottom
line oriented and I got disillusioned. And that's
one of the things that triggered my searching.
And there has to be more to life. So as a combination
of that disillusionment and the realization that
external validation, whether through being sought
after socially or professionally or having stuff,
none of that was enough for me. And that's what
prompted that search. So there was a disconnect,
and like you said, you were just surviving. And
then you talked about disillusionment. I think
a lot of people live in the world of illusion,
and they don't connect to the what's so in their
life. And it seems like that's what you did.
So what was the next thing that you did once
you began, like, I guess, open up? Well, I mean,
the beginning was that dramatic leap, you know,
where I just quit everything and... went off
on a spiritual journey. I was part of a very
small spiritual community. I studied with a spiritual
teacher for about five years, blending Eastern
and Western principles, psychology, spirituality,
and pretty soon, and I did it for about four
or five years and then went off on my own. And
I've been applying, you know, those principles
and started teaching. I learned about breathwork
through that teacher. I learned about meditation.
and that's I weave those practices into my retreats
and my my coaching and And it was it was that's
what had been missing for me. It was I had you
know developed so much Mentally psychologically
professionally, but I had neglected the spiritual
like many people I threw out the baby with a
baptismal water And and then realizes like wait
a minute it's just as ludicrous to try to reject
one part of being human like sexuality like my
religion had tried me to to get me to do um as
it is to to reject my spiritual nature it's all
part of that whole human being and when we reject
any part of our wholeness there's no way that
we can thrive i was going to go another way but
you said that um we reject a part of our wholeness
can you talk about that like because i think
that that's maybe a struggle for people. And
I know we're going to talk about entrepreneurs
and things like that, but this may intersect
with that. But when you reject a part of your
wholeness. Yeah. In my case, it was those two
things. First of all, I knew from a young age
that I was gay. And the religion in which I was
raised had no room for that. So I tried to reject
that part of myself for some time. And then when
I realized, you know, when I made the choice
that I wasn't going to live my life based on
teachings that were taken out of their cultural
and historical context, teachings from thousands
of years ago that were translated and retranslated
and mistranslated, teachings that came about
when women weren't even equal. Women were property.
So I decided, no, I'm not going to base my choices
about what I'm going to do with my life and what's
right and what's wrong on that. And so that triggered
that's that was the the bathwater. But I threw
out the good part of the spirituality. I just
rejected the whole thing. Anything that had to
smack of spirituality or religion, I didn't know
the difference between those two things back
then. So I rejected that in my 20s. And at the
end of my 20s is when I started to realize, wait
a minute, there's something missing. And that
was that other part of my being human, of my
wholeness that I had ignored and tried to reject
and run away from in my 20s. And so my choice
then was to begin to reincorporate that and to
find ways of connecting with that and expressing
it that were a match for me, that worked for
me. Yeah. The question I have then is what was
it? What was the impact on? The rejection of
you because it could be different for everybody
It could be this you know what your what your
experience, but there's an impact there. What
was that impact for you of my hat my heaven?
Been rejected by religion. Yes, or just any parts
of this part parts of you period. Oh, that's
what you're saying Yeah, well, you know going
back to to wholeness and thriving we can't be
thriving if we're rejecting any part of who we
are In my case, whether it was sexuality or spirituality,
it's like ludicrous to try to suppress, repress,
ignore, jump over parts of who we are. It's just
like another thing that we see often, which is
spiritual bypassing. I don't want to look at
the dark stuff. I don't want to look at the painful
stuff. I just want to focus on the, quote unquote,
love and light. that stuff that we're trying
to run away from, that we're trying to repress
or stick in the back of the drawer or a closet
somewhere, it's not gonna go away. Right? All
the painful stuff. It's not gonna go away. It's
only gonna fester under the surface and impact
our relationship and the relationships and the
quality of our lives from the subconscious. So
it's not easy work. It's hard work. I know, you
know, but it's infinitely rewarding. Because
once we are able to look at that and ask the
hard questions Why do way am I triggered by that?
Why do I keep recreating this pattern in relationship?
Why do I keep having the same old boring argument?
Um only with a different actor a different co
-lead but the same crap coming up at some point
We have to get honest and real and say wait a
minute There's one common denominator in every
one of those arguments in every one of those
relationships and it's right here Why? Why is
that? And once we ask those hard questions, we
can do something about it, right? We can heal
whatever needs to be healed. We can make whatever
choices that we need to make. Getting honest
with that part of you that you won't face and
really... just going at it. Yeah. Go at it. So,
I mean, you started to develop this for yourself
and you went on a spiritual journey. What was
that like and what did you do? And I ask that
question because I've had a couple people that
have done the same, like they talk about they're
more spiritual in their quest and they went Trot,
ayahuasca, and all that good stuff. And that's
not the same for everybody, but they also talk
about breathwork. And so the core of my question
is, what was that journey, and how did breathwork
help you to get to the next space in your life?
Let me start with the breathwork. The journey
itself was difficult, right? Because it entailed
questioning. Things that I've taken for granted
all my life things that I've been told things
that I was conditioned to believe You know when
I was raised there was one only true religion
in the world and that was the Roman Catholic
Church and so it became a process of questioning
right and one and investigating and and having
my own experiences and beginning to explore and
develop my own personal relationship with the
sacred, whatever you call that. And so there
was a lot of years of explanation. Breathwork
was life changing. Like I'll never, I'll never
forget the very first session because after so
much searching and so much looking, I got a glimpse
of an aspect of myself, you know, like the part
of us that, you know, call it the soul, call
it, you know, I talk about the baseball on the
stadium metaphor. If you put a baseball in the
center of a stadium, that's what the little ego
identity, right? The little sense of separate
personality. There's this Christian, that's Michael.
That's what that ego part of us is. Who we are
is actually the stadium. And we've allowed this
tiny, tiny, tiny part of who we are to think
that it is all who we are and to make all these
important consequential choices from a tiny and
always limited and always fear based perspective.
So part of what breath work does for me, and
I know that like sacred medicine journeys also
do it for people, people because I hear it all
the time. People who did who do breath work with
me, and then they'll say, Wow, I got to the same
place, which to me is that stadium nature. In
breath work that I did on an ayahuasca journey.
So it's a different pathway, a different way
to get to those experiences. And once you have
an experience of yourself, one thing's reading
about it. Another one is having an experience
of yourself as that, as interconnected to it
all, as free in the ultimate sense of freedom,
empowered in a soulful kind of way, because it's
both incredibly empowering and profoundly humbling
at the same time. um and so once you have a taste
of that it's it everything changes everything
changes and so talking to this person now this
christian now um you talk about some extraordinary
things that we'll talk about um and you use breath
work in your retreats and things like that you
you you uh stated um you talk about uh um personal
power your true personal power how do you how
how do you define that i think Deep question
too, because we have, most of us struggle with
that word, right? Power. Because also we've been
conditioned to think that power is bad. You know,
with quotes like power corrupts, absolute power
corrupts absolutely. And what good person wants
to be corrupted. And then how many times have
we witnessed abuses of power? whether in our
both in our personal relationship with parental
figures and teachers, et cetera, bosses, and
in the world, like all we have to do is turn
on the news on any given day and see witness
at least one abuse of power. So when you put
all that together, what happens tragically is
that we get confused about power. And so we end
up rejecting power. And what what what happens
when we do that, because we have we weren't taught
that those words like those power corrupts phrase
Lord Acton who spoke them was specifically speaking
about political power not the personal power
that we're talking about but we weren't taught
that so we throw again the baby out with the
bathwater and what happens when we give away
our power is that we end up settling in how many
times have we said yes when inside it was a no
inside we were not okay with that but in order
to maintain the peace or because we're so terrified
of the emotions and conflict that we end up settling
for that illusion of pseudo peace and we settle
for crumbs of pseudo acceptance and pseudo love
and it's not a good strategy because all that
stuff that we're suppressing that's going to
turn into resentment yeah because it has to right
every time that we're suppressing our dreams
giving away our power, or we're putting other
people's preferences and perceptions and beliefs
ahead of ours. That stuff is, you know, inside
is going to turn into resentment. And of course,
there's compromise in every relationship, of
course. So that's not what I'm talking about.
You know, it's like tonight we want to go for
Chinese, tomorrow we go for Mexican. That's a
difference from what I'm talking about. I'm talking
about sacrificing, abandoning ourselves at the
deepest levels in order to settle because we're
afraid of being alone or because we're afraid
of having a difficult conversation. Right. So
you talk about possibly abandoning. How does
one reclaim their power, then, if they're afraid
of it or they're not really embracing it, their
personal power? Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, first of all, understanding what we're
doing, right? So beginning to understand our
relationship to power and that there are different
kinds of power and that we can step into a kind
of personal power that is not hierarchical, that
is not abusive, that doesn't require that we
push anybody down, step on them, put our knee
to their neck in order to prop ourselves up and
feel powerful. That there's a way that we can
manage our relationship to power that is not
zero sum, right? So that your power, your having
power doesn't take away from mine, of course
not. And so that we begin to move more into the
direction of what I call soulful power, but it's
more like power with rather than power over.
And so that's, and then beginning to pay attention,
right? We can't do anything about what we can't
see. So going through life, paying attention.
What are those times when we stuff ourselves,
when we play small, when we know the answer in
a meeting, but we're afraid to raise the hand
and speak up. Yeah. Or because, you know, because
whatever we feel rejection, we don't, we don't,
we want to make sense with everybody else. We
were afraid of like, if it really beat all of
who we are, that other people might not be able
to handle it and reject it. So we play small
and we stick ourselves into a little box. And
that's not, that's the opposite of thriving.
Right. That's like, playing small and acting
as if. And we've also been conditioned to believe
that to let ourselves shine, to let ourselves
thrive, is arrogance. And I think it's the reverse.
How dare we hide our light under a bushel? How
dare we play small, particularly at this time
when everything is writing? We're all in this
together. We're a make -it -or -break -it point
in terms of human evolution. The planet will
be fine, right? The mess that we have made, the
planet left on its own will find balance again.
It might take a gazillion years. It might end
up being an enlightened cockroach planet in the
end. Whether we make it, hmm. Right? We're just
now. I'm sorry you said like cockroach, but it's
it's in your ear. Whether we make it, that's
what's up, right? We're just now beginning to
experience what we have unleashed on our environment.
Yeah. So it's time. It's like all hands on deck.
If anybody who's who's listening or watching
this who has the slightest. inkling of suspicion
that they have work to do as teachers as healers
as as activists for change. This is it. Yeah,
this is the clarion call all hands on deck. You
know, the cockroach statement kind of threw me
off a little bit. But but because I started picturing,
you know, conscious meditating cockroaches. Yeah,
yeah. Uh, let's see. Let me get back on track
here. Um, so I was gonna say, you know, I've
been through, um, and years of, uh, my transformation
and, you know, once you're transformed, you're
transformed, but there's always transformation
happening, especially what I like to say is that
I stay in the conference conversation of transformation
with people, um, just because, you know, you
can always have a steadily moving world of transformation
and these days that I'm you know I'm so much
further along than I was but I'm still at a place
where I know there's so much more to do and to
grow and you're talking about playing small and
it just reminded me of you know for whatever
reasons I mean I I know the reasons just don't
want to go into it right now because it's like
a therapy session but I was playing small even
though like I was successful in areas and that
playing small mindset really got me to play small
in life and then, you know, things like my world
mirrored what was going on the inside. And if
that's happening to people that are listening,
what can they do to really shift that for themselves
if they're in that mindset or that space or being?
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it out. The short answer is cut it out. Cut it
out. Just cut it out. Stop. Seriously, stop.
How dare you? How dare you? It's like we need
you now. We need all of us. And if you want to
be fulfilled. That's the only way you're going
to find fulfillment, right? Well, I think everybody,
anybody who's stuck out this conversation, this
long nose has lived long enough to know that
there isn't anybody out there who's going to
make us happy. Yeah. So no relationship is ever
going to fulfill us. And it's not their job to
like how unfair to put the responsibility on
someone. You are going to make me happy. Yikes.
And we have we all know like how many more proof
do we need for people who have all the money?
celebrities, the politicians, all the power you
could want and they're miserable and thin skinned.
You know that the slightest comments turns them
into a whole over reactive childish tantrum without
mentioning names. And so I'm trying to be serious
when you say something some things that are really
that hit at the that at the mark, right? You
hit the market and just it resonates. So I agree
with what you're saying. That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the only thing, as
far as I'm concerned, the only thing that is
ever going to fulfill us is giving expression
to that unique human potential that lies inside
each one of us. There isn't anyone else. in this
universe or any other universe, for that matter,
who has the same genetics, the same set of experiences,
the same desires, preferences, dreams that make
each one of us unique. If we don't give expression
to that, ain't nobody else going to do it. And
to me, that is the universal imperative is to
give expression to that. And we get to do that
however we wish. But going for that personal
best, that personal excellence, is what's going
to give us that sense of satisfaction. And it
doesn't matter the details, the specifics are
secondary, right? Where in one case it could
be writing an Oscar winning screenplay. Somebody
else's case might be making the best damn chocolate
brownies this side of the Mississippi. It doesn't
matter. What matters is that we give expression
to them because that's where our fulfillment
lies. And that's when we're going to thrive.
That's where you thrive. Expression to the unique
human potential. Yeah. That's powerful. You know,
like being self expressed is probably one of
the best things that human can be for themselves.
And I know just for me that it works for me,
right? Because, you know, there's moments when
I'm like, you know, not expressive or and then
I'm just kind of within but that doesn't work
for me. And then, you know, I don't feel free.
I don't feel like right. uh achieve the things
that I or goals or the things that I'm setting
up for myself and when I get self expressed,
it's a whole different um outcome in a whole
different world that shows up for me and you
know, like you said, if you stuck it out this
far in this conversation, you know, that's one
of the post powerful things that you can take
away is expression to the unique. human potential,
which is what to yourself. Yeah. And let me clarify,
Michael, just in case anybody's wondering or
projecting. Oh, wow. Well, Michael and Christian,
you know, they're different. It's like, wait
a minute. No, slow down because I know self -doubt.
I know self -hatred. My entire adolescence was
one long depression. Like, you know, figure out
this kid, you know, knowing he was gay, who thought
he wanted to be a priest, who wanted to serve
God, as I understood it then. and being told
by that religion in which I was raised that I
was going to that I was an abomination that I
was going to burn in hell for eternity so you
know suicidal fantasies and all that so I know
if flash forward to today never ever ever do
I feel self -doubt like no matter the circumstances
whether a relationship works out or doesn't whether
a project succeeds or it fails in quotes never
ever ever do I question my sense of self My self
-worth is unshakable. And I know if that can
happen in me, that can happen in anybody. And
yeah, it's going to take work. You can have to
go within and figure out who you are and ask
and face yourself and do whatever healing work
you need to do to free yourself. Yeah, that's
probably the first step of really, if you're
in the world of survival, which, you know, it's
common and you are looking at, you know, how
do I thrive or how do I get into that world of
thriving? Um, I was going to say Thrival, but
I don't think it's a word, but it shows up somewhere.
Maybe it should be a word. I love that. Man,
Michael, I think he just coined a great word.
Yeah, I'll take it. I'll take it. Um, you know,
making that the first step is really going, going
within and just really checking yourself, um,
to make that next step. And so, uh, you You are
TEDx stage you you're TEDx talker. Yeah, how
was that experience? Well, and that's to that
same point like as a teenager I was painfully
painfully shy like I was okay one -on -one But
if you added third human clamped up speaking
in public in front of a group forget it not gonna
happen And I knew and yet I knew that in order
to express myself, in order to have a chance
at thriving and fulfilling that human potential
that we were talking about, I knew I had to get
over it. I had to get over that fear. And, you
know, managed to get through college without
speaking in public. But then I said, well, I
got to do something about this. So I signed up
for a public speaking course. Hated it. Hated
it because for 14 weeks on Thursday nights, I
had to get up and give three two -minute speeches.
Come Monday, I was already dreading it. But what
happened? You know, after doing it and doing
it again and doing it again three times a week
for 14 weeks, it stopped being such a big deal.
So I didn't know about this then, but there's
a concept that I learned later, which is from
a book titled by Susan Jeffers, Feel the Fear
and Do It Anyway. And here it is in 30 seconds.
Imagine a series of concentric circles. So this
center circle, that represents our comfort zone.
This is where we're comfortable now being in
the world, being with each other, relating to
others. Every time we take a little step and
push beyond that comfort zone, we're stretching
out that comfort zone. So if we would take that
on, it doesn't have to be three times a week
on Thursdays. But if we would make the commitment
that every week we're going to do something,
one thing that's going to push us out of that
comfort zone. And it could be anything, right?
It doesn't have to be huge. It could be a huge
step, but it could be a little thing like saying
yes and going on a coffee date or saying, yes,
you know what, I am going to put my application
for that, for that job that just came up in my
company. Every time we, even if we don't get
the job or even if the coffee date doesn't turn
into anything, just by that act of pushing out
and pushing out, we're pushing out our comfort
zone and that's irreversible. by the end of 52
weeks, we're gonna be way out here. Yeah, irreversible.
Yeah, I like that word. I was just thinking,
connecting what you're talking about to what
I have to do in my business, which is a part
of it is sales. And I had it that I hated sales.
This is occurred to me. How it occurs to me is
that, you know, it's just a thing that just don't
like doing. But I had to shift my thought and
mine, just the way I was being about it. and
saying, you know what I'd like people are looking
for answers and have an answer for you and just
come that go into those conversations with authenticity
and really listening for what they what they're
looking for and if I have if I can serve them
and support them then I'll do that. So when you
when I have to get on a phone call and all that
kind of good stuff like that's me opening opening
up because man I'm telling you I hated it. And
it's still a thing that I'm still building. I
still resist that too. I get it. My heart goes,
I feel you, man. I feel you. And yet you've got
the right reframing, right? It's like, how dare
us withhold the services, the wisdom, the skills,
the practices, the programs that we have developed
that we know, without a shadow of a doubt, can
make a difference in somebody else's life. yes
how dare we allow our fear our judgment about
sales or our resistance to doing that get in
the way of that for somebody else yeah don't
do that don't do that um and what i thought was
interesting i was looking at uh your information
and you have a book uh is it conscious love and
relationship healing yeah yeah um this is taking
romantic for a little bit and we're talking about
like how we relate to ourselves and others and
purpose and things like that. And you talk about
relationship, our relationship to relationships.
Can you talk about that concept right there?
Yeah. So part of what I did in the book, which
is called Conscious Love, transforming our relationship
to relationships, is about shifting the way that
we approach relationships. Because if here to
use one example, I use 10 different ways in which
we get stuck. in relationship that we have relationships
crap come up. The first one is basic right is
if we're approaching the relationship, hoping,
dreaming that it's going to complete us that
is going to make us happy. Forget it. Right?
Like we were like we were saying so those relationships
are not going to work. And like we're talking
about before, it's not fair to put that heavy
responsibility on a relationship or another person.
Right. I've got so much banking in this. My validation
of my worth, my happiness as a human being, my
possibility to thrive in life all depends on
you and this relationship. Yikes. It's a big
responsibility. So approaching a relationship
consciously means that we know that only we are
going to have the capacity to fulfill ourselves.
that and that that that we don't need any external
validation right that our worth is inherent and
doesn't need to be proven like it's there what
what the work is is to clear the crap that's
gotten in the way of that all the conditioning
all the misunderstandings that we picked up along
the way from childhood right we misheard something
or maybe a parent or a teacher said something
to us the wrong way because there were in a moment
of overwhelm i didn't know how to do it right
right so we took it on as truth. Oh my god, I'm
too much of this. Oh my god, I'm not smart enough.
I'm not pretty enough. I'm not strong enough.
Whatever, right? All the misunderstandings that
we took on. And just because that was said, or
we heard it that way, doesn't make it true. It
doesn't make it real. So that's part of the process
of freeing ourselves is questioning all those
beliefs that we have about ourselves. And in
some cases, like getting clear because a lot
of that stuff we suppressed and repressed, it
was too much to handle. Right? So if we took
on a belief like I'm not good enough, I'm not
worthy of love as a kid, like, wow, that's a
lot for a little young mind to handle. So we
suppress it. But just because we suppress it,
it doesn't go away. That belief has been working
and impacting every one of our relationships
from the get go because we end up settling. That's
another way in which we get in stuff in problem
with relationship, we settle. We know this is
not a good match. It doesn't mean we're better
than it. It doesn't mean we're worse than it.
We just know it's not a good match, but we override
the red flags. We think, oh, I can rescue them.
I can fix them. Then we override all those red
flags. How does that work out? It never works
out. It doesn't. Never. It can't. So, but it
begins from that misunderstanding of devaluing
ourselves, of not really seeing our own worth.
Yeah. There's a lot of things that happen in
our older years that may have caused that is
because of things that we misinterpreted or misunderstood
or what we thought was happening in our younger
years. When you were telling, when you were saying
that, I was remembering a story, not a story,
but a moment when I was in middle school and
a teacher this is you know back when we used
to have a home economics and um i don't know
if they still have it but um i doubt it but anyway
she i remember her name i go say it i don't know
if she's around anymore but um she called me
lazy she said you're just lazy right for some
reason that stuck with me and even if I forgot
about it like that was a thing that stuck with
me for so long. And probably until like maybe
four years ago. I was in a conversation with
somebody else and she had to she had to just
bring me back to that moment and she was like
your love you're appreciated you're not late
you know she didn't say you're not lazy but she
gave me all the great attributes of who I was
but though the moments like that really ran.
my relationships with people and my life. That's
exactly right. That's a beautiful example of
things that somebody said. Maybe they had good
intentions. Maybe her intention was like, if
we're going to be generous, maybe she was trying
to get you to work more in school. But to label
it lazy and to tell a kid that, that is so not
right. That's wrong. Rather than understanding
what's going on with them. Maybe he's having
trouble at home. Maybe he's not getting enough
sleep. Maybe whatever, not enough food. Maybe
he doesn't have support to do his homework. Whatever
it is, there could be 20, 30, 40, 50 reasons
why he wasn't doing the homework. And to label
it lazy is just not... I hope that teachers aren't
doing that kind of stuff anymore. Yeah, I hope
not. But yeah, it is so crazy because years later...
Here I am talking about it still, you know, it
doesn't affect me the same way because I've done
the work. And, um, you know, I'm okay. You know,
um, I know who I am. Um, and yeah, of course
we wouldn't be having this conversation here
and you wouldn't be producing a past podcast
if you were not even because dyslexia, dyslexia
is another one. I know friends who were dyslexic
coming up and the teachers told them all sorts
of negative crap. Yeah, it had nothing to do
with with their ability to read or they're wanting
to read or lack of interest. It's just they were
they saw things in a different way. Yeah, right.
You know, I was, I was just listening to someone
I can't remember. But they, they were talking
about this, their dyslexia, dyslexia, I can't
even say it. And how it really affected them.
But, but, you know, their mom knew that he was
dyslexic, but didn't tell him until he found
out like, I don't know, a note or whatever it
was. But she didn't tell him because she didn't
want him to use that as a crutch. Right. And
I think that was good. But I think that's also
like, kind of like the pushing it down kind of
thing and not really facing it. And I'm with
you. Yeah. And I would give the kid whatever
information he needs to know about himself. herself.
Trust the trust the kid to handle it. Yeah. Trust
them to handle it and I was looking over it again
notes here. Um we're talking about you're talking
about love uh love unconsciously. How do you
how do how does someone in the relationship like
when they get well first of all all that those
stories and all that kind of stuff that you're
talking about like how do they get all that stuff
out of the way? Well I mean the first step is
becoming aware of it. Yeah, right like like you
having that awareness about that story about
having been called lazy and the way that had
stuck in your head Like from in many many cases
I see it come up in breath work all the time
because breath work kind of clears the stuff
that's been suppressed and I see it happen all
the time and and you know talking about people
with who are successful professionally Who who
you know incredibly doing incredibly well financially
in the eyes of the world and yet Deep down inside
and they're still struggling with relationships
Why is that? Why is that the area that that people
who've done spiritual practice who meditate they
still struggle with with relationships So and
part of the reason is because we we have so many
so much relational crap that we've taken on so
many unconscious beliefs about ourselves about
love We have so many wounds that we haven't done
the work of healing and so all we carry all that
unhealed past into our present relationships
And if we're not self -aware, then we start projecting
that stuff on one another and throwing it on
each other's lap And that's another one of the
reasons that we get into trouble with relationships.
That's another one of the 10. So how do we do
it? First step is become aware, right? Ask yourself
the hard questions. Start looking at patterns.
Use other humans as mirrors, right? We all have
blind spots. So there's parts of us that we're
never gonna see. But if you're in a relationship,
and this could be any relationship, it could
be a sibling, could be a coworker, whatever they
do, The more that whatever they do gets us, triggers
us, pisses us off, the clearer the sign is that
we're doing that in some other way. So if it's
there, it's here. And the details could be completely
different. So let me give you an example. Some
years ago, I was dating somebody, started dating
somebody and all of a sudden started not showing
up. Like no, didn't show up for dates, no. No
emails, no texts, no calls, nothing. I didn't
get it, right? Because I was like focused over
there. What's going on with him? Call them at
work. He's not working there. So there's a drugs
that he got fired. I didn't get it. So subconsciously
had to create a different situation. I was in
order for me to get what was going on. So I was
trying to. set up to communicate with a literary
agent that I was working with at the time, who
was great about communications usually, like
she'd get back to me within 24, 48 hours. A week
went by and I hadn't heard from her. Okay, that
got my attention, right? Two people, different
walks of life, kind of doing the same thing,
right? But because these are blind spots, let's
focus on the projection first. What are they
doing, right? So what were they doing? They weren't
showing up. They weren't doing what they said
they would do. They weren't keeping their agreements.
They weren't keeping their word. So therefore,
they were out of integrity, right? Easy to see
over there. Turn that mirror around, you know,
the mirror that we flash in front of, like we
shove in front of somebody's face as you do this,
right? Turn that around. How do I do that? It
took me a few days because I was looking in the
wrong place. I was looking in relationship to
others. Am I keeping my agreement? Yeah. Am I
showing up in that relationship? Yes. Am I doing
what I said I would do? Yes. And then it hit
me in relationship to my writing. How many times
that I said to myself, I'm going to finish that
chapter by such and such a day. Did I do it?
No. I was doing other important stuff. I was
doing retreats, traveling, whatever, coaching,
whatever. But I wasn't showing up for my writing.
I wasn't keeping my agreement with myself. Nobody
else knew about this in relationship to my writing.
And all I had to do was bring consciousness to
it, right? I didn't have to finish that book.
I could say, you know what? I'm not going to
finish it. Or I could say to myself, you know
what? Extend the deadline. Another 60 days, another
90 days, whatever. But I was doing none of that.
I wasn't showing up and I was like trying to
sweep it away, sweep it under the rug. But the
minute, not the minute, within the hour, and
that part I'm not exaggerating, within the hour
of me having that insight and making that choice
about my writing, they both called. So no longer
that I need to create external drama in my life,
to face myself and make a choice, you know, dude,
write or not, but make a choice. You're bringing
whatever was happening subconsciously, you make
it, brought it to the conscience. conscious.
So, when you're in relationships, can you will
you say that like if you talk about blind spots
and things like that and you're in relationships,
the people that are in your world or closest
to you or maybe pop in or pop out or however
it goes, there are reflections of you and if
it's something happening that's not really in
alignment, you can kind of mirror those relationships
and really look at yourself and seeing what's
what's not working and what's actually happening
with with you. Exactly. Exactly. And then. Yeah,
everybody, everybody. And of course, who's going
to get us the most? Those who are closest to
us. You know, family, siblings, lovers, those
are the ones that get us the most. But if we
approach it with this, rather than pointing the
finger and making wrong and you do this, you
always do that, you never do this, right? That's
not going to do anybody any good. The more that
we point the finger, the other person just shuts
down and defends and points the finger right
back. But that's not true. And you do that and
you also do that, right? And then it becomes
an argument. and a fight, and a power struggle.
If we, and with clear boundaries, right, if somebody's
behavior is doing something that is impacting
us, of course, we speak up. But we do it in a
different way, right? Rather than pointing the
finger, like, you don't care about me, you only
care about yourself, or you only care about your
schedule, not mine, right? That's only gonna
lead to argument. So frame it in the way, when
you do X, I feel Y. Right, like own it. Like,
what is it that's really going on? Like, say
that I have an ongoing lunch with Mary and Mary's
always late. And what we end up doing is sitting
there waiting for Mary. It's like, shit, she
is so selfish and she never shows up on time.
She only cares about her own schedule. And then
Mary shows up and we put on a fake smile because
we hate confrontations. And then the sarcasm
starts to drip in now. to the side of our, the
covert jabs. But that's not gonna help, right?
So we have to own that it's our stuff. Like maybe
you have lunch with Mary, Mary shows up late
and you're like, great, I have 20 minutes. Let
me return that phone call. Catch up on the news,
right? There's so many ways to respond to Mary's
lateness. Why does it bother me so much? And
it doesn't excuse her lateness. That's a different
conversation. But if I... scratch under the surface
of Mary's lateness, of my feelings to Mary's
lateness, it's like I'm probably going to look
something like I'm not feeling valued. I'm not
feeling respected. I'm not feeling worthy. And
those feelings are way older than my lunches
with Mary. And that's where I have, once I do
that work and ask myself what is really going
on? What am I feeling here? underneath the anger
about her lateness or those deeper feelings,
then I can do something about them. And once
I heal what's underneath it, you know, the feeling
not good enough, feeling not respected, feeling
not worthy, then I'm free. Mary can show up late,
anybody can show up late, and I can make some
clear choices. Like say to Mary, Mary, I love
our friendship and I love our weekly lunches,
but I got to tell you, when you show up late,
I don't feel valued. I don't feel like my time
is being valued and I don't like those feelings.
Can we do this a different way? Right? And I'm
owning that as my stuff. I'm not exonerating
her. I'm bringing it up for discussion. And then
I can make a choice. If Mary continues showing
up late, then I can make a choice about that
because Mary's obviously not valuing my request
and my preference. that's that's some transformation
right there uh within within yourself and then
it depends on the relationship that too as well
um and you know it's a practice right the whole
transformation thing and how do how do uh people
sustain their their transformation to to themselves
and relationships when it does begin to transform
i think some of this stuff is irreversible i
really do once we get to the core, right, to
the core of the stuff, the misunderstanding,
the lie that we're not worthy, that we don't
deserve respect, that we don't deserve to be
loved, right? That misunderstanding. There are
ways with practices like breath work that once
it clears, it clears permanently. There may still
be some behavioral habits, you know, just because
we've been doing things for a certain way all
our lives. So it might take a while for the behavior
to catch up with the new identity. Um, so part
of it is becoming really present, right? And
rather than going through life, distracting ourselves
and running away from, from looking at ourselves
and why we do the things we do, like become present,
like observe yourself going through life. Are
you, are you recoiling when somebody does or
say something? Are you feeling anxious when somebody
does or say something? What is that? Are you
feeling reactive when somebody does or say something?
What did that trigger? And rather than reacting.
Besit with it and ask yourself what's really
going on here? What am I feeling and what's underneath
it? Right? What's underneath the anger? What's
underneath the defensiveness? Because it's always
going to be less than we thought it was it feels
Scary because because it's scary to that young
little mind right who was told That they were
lazy or that they weren't smart enough that they
weren't good enough whatever they were told And
we suppress that stuff, but it's been growing
under the surface and becoming much bigger than
it actually is. Yeah. Much bigger. Deal with
it. Deal with it. It's so worth it to deal with
it. It's so worth it. It is. Because what I find
is when you deal with it, there's freedom. Yes.
That comes. Yes. Yeah. And dealing with it and
bringing freedom actually bring gives you access
to more things in your life and um it's it's
you talk about you're like you're your soul power
yeah um that i think um yes sir there's freedom
and there's power in the in dealing with it freedom
and power yeah um i'm struggling because i want
to continue but i hadn't noticed either um so
So we're going to wrap up because it is an hour
and I know how our audience, it's about this
time when it's like, okay, it's time to move
and watch something else or whatever they're
doing, or listen to something else. YouTube and
podcasts and all that kind of stuff. But I'm
really curious to know like, I mean, you're a
transpersonal coach, you do one -on -one coaching
and all things like that, yes? Yes, I do individual
one -on -one work and I also do retreats, group
work. You do retreats. In all of your transformation,
what was the biggest thing that you've gotten
since just through your journey to where you
are now? Well, there are two constants. I do
a lot of different retreats on different themes.
relationships, conscious relationships, relationships
that have a chance of working, personal empowerment.
I work with women specifically about women's
empowerment. Talk about life purpose. Constant,
there are two constants to every one of those
retreats. One of them is understanding the ego
mind. Because if, to me, there's no way around
that if you want to be free, if you want to be
in your power, if you want to have a relationship
that have a chance of working, if you want to
have a life that is filled with meaning and with
purpose, you've got to understand. I don't see
a way around that, understanding the ego and
how it works. And there's a lot of confusion
about that, right? We think ego means arrogance,
inflated sense of self. And it does, but it means
a whole lot more than that, right? So all that
defensiveness, the reactivity, that all goes
back to the ego. And in the previous book, Awakening
the Soul Power, I spent probably the first fifth
of the book, quarter of the book, explaining
and talking, getting into the ego. So it's there.
It's out there or come to any of my retreats,
and you'll figure that out. And then the second
question is breath work. That's the other constant,
because all that unhealed stuff, all that traumatic
stuff, all those misunderstandings that we picked
up along the way, they get cleared, they get
healed, and I've witnessed it countless times.
And I know it's hard to believe that just by
breathing, that stuff can happen. And it's a
particular style of breathing. You breathe for
about an hour, an hour and a half. and amazing
stuff happens. And I can't argue with the results.
It works. Lives change. Lives change. Man, Christian,
first of all, thank you for being on the podcast.
Thank you for being just extraordinary. And within
this conversation, you've given away a lot of
powerful tools that people just from the conversation
could take and use in their lives. But I believe,
and I've never been, but I believe you would
have a powerful retreat and some powerful books,
which I'm already ordering. But how do people
get in touch with you if they want to come to
retreat or get books from you? Thank you for
asking that. And thank you for having me on the
show, Michael. And thank you for having the show.
I loved The conversation, I love the back and
forth. I love the depth of your questions and
your own experiences and your humility and sharing
some of your own personal experiences. I really
appreciate that. And to me, that's leadership.
That's authentic leadership. In terms of how
to reach me, probably my website is the best
way to do that. From there, they can access my
email or my social media. The website is soulfulpower
.com. S O U L F U L P O W E R dot com and I look
forward to hearing from from them and I look
forward to to stay connected with you. I do appreciate
it yet likewise and I mean this is it's been
extraordinary. Um it's been I didn't expect this
kind of emotion to uh play out in this conversation
but I'm glad it did um because these are kind
of conversations that really make a difference
and can begin somebody's journey on their transformative
journey themselves. So again, I want to say thank
you for being on the podcast. And we do have
a question the question for people that are watching
on YouTube. We talked about playing small in
the beginning of the podcast and like we're in
your life. You are playing you or you're playing
small and you want to make that shift. And so
just what's the bullet step that you're going
to take to really make that shift? And if you
don't know I believe his retreat may be a good
answer. So do that, leave it in the comments.
And again, Christian, thank you so much. Thank
you, Michael. And as we always say, let's make
thriving our new normal. And we'll talk soon.